Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - #933: Editing with Gregg Luben

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

I talk with Editor Gregg Luben about the challenges of editing a Magic set. In particular, we talk about his editing of Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty.

I'm not pulling on my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another drive to work at Home Edition. So today I'm interviewing someone fun, Greg Lubin, who is the senior or a senior editor for Magic. So hey, Greg. Hey, how's it going? Okay, so today we're talking editing. So the most recent set that you edited that the public has seen is Kamigawa Nian Dynasty. So, that's going to be our go-to example today as we talk about editing. But mostly what I want to do today is I want the audience to understand what exactly do the editors do?

What is the job of an editor, a magic editor? Sure. So we have, as you know, a role that kind of sits in the middle of all of the technical and creative aspects of Magic, particularly as it's getting closer to being ready to print. So on the one hand, a Magic Editor spends a lot of time templating cards and making sure that they both follow the precedent of templates that have come before and are also working correctly under the rules and according to what the designers would like them to do and on the other hand we're also keeping an eye on all the stuff that world building is generating like creative text and the card naming and the whole sort of story package of a card fitting together and those things are the inputs to like to the editing process and we have a lot of interaction with both designers and world-building designers, game designers and world-building designers, that is.

And then we also sort of have a hand reaching past us to the production process where we help get all of those things lined up and ready to go to print. So, for example, how many different teams do you think you interact with? Oh, gosh, that's a high number. There's certainly the world-building folks, both in terms of art direction and creative text. There's game design.

There's play design. There's the rest of my team, which kind of makes up the rules and templating team. And then downstream from us, there are the folks who do imaging, which is to say they are the digital artists who make the art and the card framing come together to become a magic card. And then there are also the folks who work on typesetting, the technical artists, who then take that sort of mold of a magic card and add all of the type in English and also in multiple other languages. And we interact with all of those teams. Do you ever interact with packaging? Oh, indeed we do.

Although that interaction is less for the Cardset lead editor now usually. And we more have a dedicated person who is kind of translating both ways. Because it seems as though as we've been making more and more interesting and cool things, the packaging process runs a little bit asynchronously from the card set development process. So we've had to specialize a bit. Okay, so what is the earliest you will get

involved in a set? So like Neon Dynasty, let's use that as our example. What was the earliest you got involved in Neon Dynasty? I was involved in Neon Dynasty essentially right at the end of Vision, which is many, many months before we would go to print, and also several months before really the bulk of the editing work is happening. I like to be involved as early as possible as my schedule allows, because then you get a sense for what the vision designers thought the mechanics were going to be like. And also, you know, what the, what the early,

the early shape of the concept is going to be from a technical standpoint, making sure the template of the new mechanics will come out being functional and readable and all of those good things. But in the particular case of Neon Dynasty, I wanted to be involved early because I spent some time living in Japan and I'm kind of a fan of some of the cultural elements that were inspirations for the set. And so I was able to kind of bring that little particular aspect of me personally to the project and kind of help along. The world building team was already doing fantastic work on that stuff, but as many eyes as possible as we have to make sure that the,

the set is going to hit all those kind of story high notes that we want and be culturally relevant without being culturally appropriative or without getting things wrong about culture. It felt, it felt good to be involved in that kind of process early and often. Okay. So before we get past vision, since this is the one thing that I do.

So for example, I led the vision design for Neon Dynasty. And the thing where I interact with the editors we did in Neon Dynasty is sometimes we're trying to do something new, it's a mechanic, and

how it will be written will control how it is used. You know, like, it's a mechanic and how it will be written will control how it is used you know like it's very common for example to say does this fit on a card is this a mechanic when we can even do can we write this on a magic card yeah that's a concern more often than i think anyone would would imagine um that some of the mechanics that we try to do, especially in the early blue sky vision part of the design process, turn out to be unprintable, not because they wouldn't work, but because the text to make them work would be too long to fit on cards. Yeah, and so a lot of the early, at least vision interacting, vision design interacting is trying to, like, usually the rule is we play with it first to see if it's fun, because we don't want to bother anybody, because if it's not fun, whatever, we won't have to worry about it. But if we like it, then we have to involve other people,

and editing's one of those, to say, oh, okay, you know, and usually when I interact with the editor, I also interact with Jess, who's the rules manager. So, like, you know, does this work? And also, I mean, let's talk a little bit about you interacting with Jess and with the rules. I mean, that's a big part of the editor's job.

Oh, my gosh, yeah. Jess is central to pretty much everything that we do because he's the ultimate arbiter of if we can do something under the rules currently or if the rules can be adjusted in a way that will not be disruptive so that we can add some new technology without kind of breaking a whole bunch of other cards that have existed in the past. He's a stalwart and reliably awesome partner in that he always wants to cooperate to try to make the coolest thing that we can do,

but also is just a walking encyclopedia of just the most mind-bogglingly granular technical minutiae of the game, and he can just access that information, you know, from his brain more or less instantaneously. So it's great to work with him because he will just know, you know, if something is going to work or not. Yeah, and there's another important thing I think people need to understand about how templating works. I think there's this idea out the building, like, there's just one template, I think there's this idea out the building, like, there's just one template, and the editor's job is to find that one template. And that's not the—there's a lot of art to template making.

There's a lot of ways things can be templated. It's not finding the one. It's, of all these ways we could template it, which one is the best one? Which one serves the game and the gameplay the best? Yeah, occasionally we get lucky, and there is something that just has a reliably standard way to be templated and we just template it that way and call it a day, especially with shorter abilities. Sometimes it's that way.

But for the most part, you're right, there are a lot of considerations going into that. For example, is this going to read in a way that is not confusing? Because it's really easy to get bogged down in language that can be ambiguous when you're trying to interpret the logic of an ability from the beginning to the end.

So there's also, oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I want us to be practical here. So I was just wondering if we could pick a mechanic from the Nian Dynasty and like look at how it's written and just like sort of walk through like what were the decisions that had to get made? Is that it? Sure.

So the completed mechanic was one that was actually quite involved because like all things that are both new and a little bit spicy, it requires a lot of thought first on the design side to make sure that the effect is going to work not only for the set that it's in, but also if it might have interactions with cards that have come immediately before it. So when we were in the very early development on that one...

Well, first, let me read the card first. The audience doesn't always know the card, so let me read the card to the audience, whatever we're talking about, and then we'll talk. So the card was on Tamiyo Completed Sage, and the thing we're talking about is the completed ability. So her mana cost was two, a green mana symbol,

a hybrid green-blue Phyrexian mana symbol, and a blue mana symbol. And it says completed, and then it showed the symbol, the green-blue Phyrexian symbol, can be paid with green, blue, or two life. If life was paid, this Planeswalker enters with two fewer loyalty counters. And then real quickly, so people just know the card,

Tamiyo, loyalty five, plus one, tap up to one target artifact or creature. It doesn't untap, drinks control its next untap step. Minus X loyalty, XL target non-land permanent with mana value X from your graveyard. Create a token that's a copy of that card. Minus seven loyalty. Create Tamriel's notebook,

a legendary colorless artifact token with spells you cost, cost two less to cast, and tap draw a card. But mostly we're going to talk about completed. So I'm going to read completed one more time and then we're going to get in the nitty gritty of how this all came together. So completed says,

mana symbol which represents blue, green, Frexen mana symbol can be paired with green, blue, or two life. If life was paid, this planeswalker enters with two fewer lawyer encounters. Okay, so let's talk about what had to go into making that a thing. So, at the beginning of the process, that entire cooperation of symbols and keywords and reminder text was all really just one textual written out ability as a static ability on on the Tamiyo planeswalker and there were a couple of different uh design

notions of how how that thing might work um you know everything from starting Tamiyo with to, as I recall, it being, maybe they considered it being a cast trigger for just a second, but the main thrust of the start of it was that it was an ability that was going to be all text and that we weren't entirely sure how it was going to function, which part of the rules that that was going to access. And when you first sat down to try to figure out how to make it happen, the hybrid mana symbol didn't exist yet?

That's right. The hybrid mana symbol was part of the development of the templating. We realized it would just be both a little bit easier on players to try to relate the concepts to the pre-existing phenomenon of Phyrexian mana, and also, frankly, just kind of cool to add that new layer as something that was exciting that you could see on the card straight away. And you bring up a really important point here, which is the audience learns things over time, so when you're trying to do something new, when you can lean on known things. So for example,

if I show you a hybrid green-blue Phyrexian mana symbol, which is something you've never seen before, the average player has some idea what that does, because they understand hybrid mana, and they understand Phyrexian mana. And so, like, we can front-load a lot of information in things you already know.

Yeah, absolutely. And even if you can't immediately guess what that's going to do, it points your brain in the right direction, right? You're looking for the reminder text that's going to tell you how does this relate to the Phyrexian mana I already know and love and the hybrid mana that I already

know and love. And so, yeah, just as you were saying, it kind of primes the brain to embrace something that you already know and then add kind of a new layer of coolness to it. And it's funny, like behind the scenes from a game design standpoint, we went through numerously how exactly Tamiyo works. Like there are a lot of different things we tried. We had like Phyrexian loyalty and we tried all sorts of crazy things but what we're talking about now is game design figured out how it's going how

they wanted it to work it's a matter of okay how do we how does the card make that happen how do we communicate that is that uh and the other thing that people might not realize is a lot of times just like we want to do this functionality can we do this functionality does it work in the rules is there a way to write it so people understand it and a lot of i assume editing is you know how do we make it so is it doable can we do it yeah absolutely and that um that aspect of of the decision making process really came to bear when we were deciding whether or not to keyword the mechanic itself um because there's some advantage to with something brand new being able to just spell it out on the card so that there's nothing to be left aside that you have to kind of go and

look at the rules more specifically if you want to figure out more complex interactions. But on the other hand, creating a keyword in that way really opens the road for shorthanding yeah let me explain something to the audience that it's a little cheat we use all the time when you have the sort of like normal text

you have to be very exact magic language is a very exacting thing that's what we talk about templates but when it's reminder text the rules aren't quite magic language is a very exacting thing. That's what we talk about templates. But when it's reminder text, the rules aren't quite as harsh about it. You are allowed to be a little more easy to understand, but not technically quite as clean.

And we take it, that's one of the reasons we talk about whether we keyword or something. There is some latitude from keywording something that it makes it a little bit easier to write because there's less rules we have to follow, essentially? Yeah, at least there are fewer rules that we have to

follow with respect to making sure that every last bit of information that is necessary is on the card itself. We definitely though have to then craft reminder text, which is a whole different part of this process where you're essentially kind of borrowing from Magic rules language to make sure that you get the point across clearly to the player without having to necessarily list the comprehensive

rules definition of a thing that's happening. Crafting reminder text is another big part of the editor's role in the process, trying to balance the needs of a player who has never seen this thing before ever, and may be relatively unfamiliar with magic, against the needs of someone who is a highly advanced magic player and who wants to know everything about the rules interaction that they could know up front from reading what is there on the card. And it's definitely always a balancing act to try to get it right, or at least as close to right as possible for both of those audiences. So how long do you think it took from,

here's the idea, to here's the thing we agreed we're going to do? Like, how long did that take? About, I want to say three months, from the very beginning of discussion to, we are definitely doing this thing and this is our awesome way forward. Because another thing that would be, I think, very not clear from the outside of how much goes into developing something like this, before we decided to make a hybridized Phyrexian mana symbol, that thing, that asset as a graphical asset didn't exist.

So it doesn't exist in any of our channels for developing frames and typesetting. Isn't an asset that can be called by any of the stuff that we use to make sure that our cards are consistent looking. So we have to sort of reinitiate part of our creative process, the same one that develops set expansion symbols for all intents and purposes,

to create this new thing that then we're going to refer to both in online formats and in scripts that pick up symbols for typesetting and have that kind of re-coincide with the development process already in flight. So it's an interesting dance between teams that are working directly on rules and designers that are working on sets, and then folks who are working on making the card look good. And all of that was happening, the mana symbols development

and also the sort of change in the mechanic to be a direct reference direct reference really to phyrexian mana it was a little bit fuzzier earlier in the development process i'm not sure if you remember at that part where it was thinking thinking that might it might be just that there was a two loyalty difference in planeswalkers that were phyrexianized that might depend on uh something other than uh than a player giving up life and so so as that notion began to crystallize and kind of hanging the concept on Phyrexian mana just seemed like a more and more cool idea, then we have to kind of marshal all of the amazing people

that do work on magic sets to reimagine a little bit, you know, what they thought the assets, the graphical assets and the rules language for this thing was going to be. And you bring up a really good point that one of the challenges of editing is a magic card is not made by one group. That there's lots of different people

doing lots of different parts of the pieces of it. And part of editing's job is to go, oh, well, this task is this group. Like, for example, right. The way it normally works, by the way, is in vision design, I'm supposed to say, do we think we need graphical components? Are there, is there any new mechanic

that might need some graphical, you know, is there a new symbol or new whatever, you know? And obviously I said no, because at the time I didn't think we needed this because we were going down a different path. Although ironically, early on, I think we were messing around with Phyrexian loyalty, which also would have been an asset,

but it was a different asset. But it's interesting that, yeah, so there's a lot of different, like part of what I think editing has to do is, okay, what do we need to make this a reality? Who do we have to talk to? And then make sure that, right, like there was a whole process of making that symbol.

That symbol didn't just, someone just clicked their fingers. It was like, okay. And the people who make it, you're like, what do we need? And what are the parameters? And what do you know? And that we'll try different versions of them. And people will give feedback. Like, it's its own thing. But the editor has to like,

like all these different concurrent things you have to keep in mind what's going on so that you're aware of the whole, the card is all as a whole piece. Yeah. And sometimes we end up, as editors kind of riding herd a little bit on reminding people that the print deadline is a thing that exists.

Because at a certain point, we just have to get cards out to our printers in order to make sure that they're going to be able to hit the shelves on time. And that point in time is very, it's far away from the early design process and it's a little bit shrouded in mystery if you're on the game design side, because it's not something you usually have to interact with. So in a case like that, where we're developing new assets, you know, we're kind of creating some process ad hoc and making sure that we are getting all the appropriate people to see those things in a quick enough period of time that we can act on them. So in the case of that symbol, I remember we prototyped, I think, three or four different versions of it and, you know, workshopped them a bit and then got happily, you know, inside the building at Wizards. As you know, we have a whole lot of magic fans.

So it's nice to be able to rely on getting a whole bunch of people in a room together who are passionate about magic so that they can weigh in on, if you're looking to see this symbol and you want to be able to grok its meaning right away, which one of these works for you? Then we can narrow down kind of the right direction and then get some leadership folks involved in approving that artistic look. Because who knows when we might use that symbol again. When we're creating something like this, we have to assume that it's going to be a thing

that we're using not just this one time, but going forward forever if we ever decide to use that mechanic again. Right, right. We always have to be future-facing in that. Let's assume if we make it, this is what it's going to be if we ever use it again. Here's the thing I remember, by the way, I'll just point out, like, when people say, how else could you make the symbol? I'll just real quickly. If I remember correctly, the big question was, obviously, it's a green-blue hybrid symbol, but does it have one Phyrexian symbol on it, or does it have two Phyrexian symbols on it?

And that was the big conversation, because normally a Phyrexian mana symbol has one Phyrexian symbols on it. And that was the big conversation because normally a Frexian mana symbol has one Frexian mana. That's all previous Frexian mana symbols had. Yep. But the big question was, did you get it was blue-green hybrid if it just had the one symbol on it? And I think we ended up doing two

because it communicates there's like, there's two kinds of mana here. Yeah, that ended up, I think, winning the day because it made people think, oh, well, usually Phyrexian mana is, you know, either the life cost or the color. So if we include that symbol twice, then it indicates that you're considering the color twice.

But some of the other ideas that were considered, I think, were like having a Phyrexian mana-shaped kind of holding shape around a conventional hybrid mana symbol was one thought. And then I think there was one where it was a Phyrexian, a smaller Phyrexian mana symbol in the middle of what would sort of look like a traditionally oriented hybrid symbol. There were a couple others, but I think those were the those were the leading contenders. And of course, the one that we ultimately used, which turned out to be the best. Yeah, and let me just bring some other examples. The other thing that – there's what I call cascading problems, where you're trying to solve one problem, but that one problem creates additional problems for the editor.

Oh, yeah, absolutely, that's a thing. Right, so I'll give a perfect example. So we're talking about Tamiyo. Let's say, for some reason, from creative reason, that creative seems like we can't call it Tamiyo. It can't be called Tamiyo. It's got to be Completed Sage and not Tamiyo. Okay, so instead of calling it Tamiyo Completed Sage,

we're going to call it Completed Sage. Now, that seems like, oh, that's a pretty, okay, that should fit. You know, that shouldn't be that hard to change. We're just taking off one word. But now you're changing where it goes alphabetically, and that's collector number, right? Oh, sure, yeah. The knock-on effect of something like that later on in the process would be,

yep, it's changing its collector number, changing the order that it is in the production documents. In the case of that particular example, we would also then have a card that was the same name as the mechanic, which we haven't done since the days of yore. So that would probably be a conversation in and of itself. Like, is it okay if we have a mechanic that says completed on a card that's name starts with completed um and i suspect maybe in that case we might have even tried to rename one or the other uh based on on that alone just so folks wouldn't be confused later on if the completed mechanic was on you know somebody else something else yeah i mean and that's the the to me that the thing about editing that i've always been very like um amazed by is that you're juggling all these different component pieces.

I mean, I won't go into detail, but, like, for example, I just did set design, or I did a while back, but on Infinity, and Matt Tabak was my editor, and, you know, we were hammering out a lot of really weird things because, you know, a lot of the process late in with the set designer and the editor is you know like for example sometimes something doesn't fit like here's a real classic example you go to template it and it doesn't fit and you have to go back to the designer the set designer of set lead and say okay you can't do what you want to do exactly

here are the options here's what you could do but what you want to do isn't doable yeah because it's in that case just literally too long to print on a magic card right because you'd end up having the font size be something insanely small in english and then when you get around to german i don't know if this is commonly known you know outside but german tends to be a lot wordier uh than english when it gets into translation so we're always thinking to ourselves like oh if we're approaching minimum font size this is going to be a lot wordier than English when it gets into translation. So we're always thinking to ourselves like, oh, if we're approaching minimum font size, this is going to be like insane in German. We should spare our German friends the difficulty of trying to read this card.

Yeah. And it's, and so there's a lot of back and forth, a lot of, a lot of editing in my mind is there's a lot of like, like you guys have to handle the practical, Like, we have to print the card. It has to fit. Like, there's a lot of, like, non-negotiables that you guys have to deal with because, you know, I used to joke, we can't change the laws of topography, you know. Like, there's things that we've got to do. Unfortunately, we can't.

I wish we could do all of the awesome things, right, because that would be more fun. And then that's the thing that I, like, as something I got a lot of appreciation, I mean, I do interact with you on vision design, but I got a lot of appreciation working set design because the number of conversations that Matt and I would have about very important things, but they were just like little minutiae. And also, like, for example,

there's things that have to do with, like, names and flavor text. And, you know, there's things that have to do with, like, names and flavor text. And, you know, there's all sorts of, every single part of the card goes under scrutiny. And you really have to make a lot of decisions. And the editor is kind of the person coming back to you and saying, okay, either this can or can't be done, but do you want this? And if you want this, here's the consequences. And there's a lot of sort of discussions with the editor that the editor is sort of saying, look, here's ways we can do it, but there comes with costs and things for doing things. Yeah, that's a large part of the role is

kind of interpreting all of the possible concerns that could exist on a card from a creative or technical standpoint. And then just kind of trying to distill that down to here are the things, here are the ways that we could solve this this difficulty where some of those things are clashing or where the design what design wants to do is clashing with how the rules handle that and then trying to you know really distill that down to we can do it this way or we can do it that way and trying to stay on the positive side of that you know we can do this we to do this, but we are limited to doing, doing it. One of these, uh, you know, very, uh, finite ways.

You know, once we get close to the end of a process, there are fewer and fewer changes that we can make that don't have tremendous ripple effect, uh, effects, you know, up, up and downstream of where we are. Um, okay. I think one of the, one of the coolest things about vision design is that at that point in the process you get to, in the improv parlance

you get to yes and just yes and we can do this and yes and we can do that and I think the tendency, the closer you get toward the end is to say no but and I try to keep myself somewhere in the middle of those things maybe not, but yes, we can do this. Okay, so we talked about how you peek your head into vision. When do you start in set?

So set design is about, I think, a year long. When in set design do you start, like, kind of getting serious about starting to do the editing? do the editing i think we get serious um at right around a point uh that designers call set design one okay um that's when an editor would start kind of functioning as the lead editor for a set because we sometimes pass them between ourselves uh to to babysit a little bit um when the lead editor doesn't really have to be paying fully attention to a new set because the way our cycle of work goes on, usually an editor is finishing a large set before really getting both feet involved in a new one. But so when we start having set design, the first set design meeting, then I would say the editor is fully engaged at that point.

And then also on the production side, that is a couple of weeks before what we would call the imaging handoff, which is basically telling our partners downstream, this is the number and kind of cards we are making and the sort of frames that we will need in order to put them in. And that's kind of an inventory that also kind of gets the editor fully engaged.

So it's both of those things. The first sort of real set design meeting where other designers and leadership are scrutinizing the cards on the one hand and the first big production deadline on the other. And they're about four to six weeks apart. Okay, so how long from first getting serious on the set to handing off the set?

What is that gap of time? Usually about four months-ish. And so one of the things we do in R&D, we do what we call pencils down, which means, okay, set design really isn't supposed to change things. When does that happen in the process? When does sort of pencils down? Oh, I mean, pencils down is a very it's an admirable concept that i don't know that we'll ever be able to get to in a 100 real way because

um the play design team is constantly working to make sure that players are going to have the best play experience and often that means tweaking cards um in in future sets based on data that they're getting from you know from what's playing in the real world in real time. Or also they're trying to balance things against new card designs that they're seeing coming up in the future of the set that I'm already working on that is in the future, if that makes any sense. So pencils down from a set design standpoint usually happens about, I would say, a month before we start getting really ready to print. But play design changes are really kind of sacrosanct. If play design really thinks that we have to change something in order to affect the play environment

or the limited environment or just the gameplay experience of the set as a whole, we will bend over backwards up until very scarily late parts of the process to make that kind of change. Yeah, in fact, it's funny. In a different podcast I talked a little bit about how there's things where it gets harder and harder to change things and then there's just a point where, okay,

you can't change things. It's being printed. You can no longer change things. Yeah. Once print hits paper, then we're pretty much, that thing is happening. But up until a few days before that, if we're willing to try to take on the

risk, then sometimes changes can get made if they feel really urgent. But usually, I would say, once the typesetting process has been approved, we're pretty much done unless it's an emergency. Okay, so we're almost done here, but I'm curious, my final question for you is,

what do you think that editing does that the average player has the least knowledge of, at least realize it is something you guys do? Oh, interesting. That could be so many things. I wish I had prepared an answer for this question but I think probably players would be surprised how much of a

retroactive impact editing work has on the design process both in terms of evaluating what's there in the set that we're currently working on and helping designers get what they want out of the cards by changing the templating, or in that same vein, using new templating technology to flow changes back through design so that a certain bit of technology and templating will take up fewer words,

thus giving designers more space to work with to do more involved and interesting card designs. So I think maybe that on the one hand, or I think people would also be surprised, especially in the last couple of years, how closely we work with the digital teams to try to make sure that the digital play experience is going to be as well optimized as the paper playing experience is. There's definitely a lot of communication there about which templates for which effects are going to provide good UI or which kinds of effects the digital platforms will struggle to produce if they haven't yet attempted to do a certain interaction of effects, for example.

And we are kind of right at the cutting edge of that process as well. Yeah. One of, one of my hopes of today, and the reason I like doing interviews with people that just work on stuff a little different from what I normally talk about is there's so much that goes into making the game. And like, I, I marvel at the number of balls you guys juggle to just make sure that everything actually, you know, like, I, I think the audience tends to think like, oh, it's just, you get a card ID, you throw it together, you're done.

And there's so many moving pieces that it's, it's, it's, I think it's really admirable how much editing does to make it all happen. So. Well, that's very kind of you to say say and i'm sure my fellow editors appreciate it also it's the complexity of making a magic set is mind-boggling to a degree that i would not have believed possible and still until i actually started doing this job um but there are so many moving parts and everyone involved um you know from design to editing to really anyone that's touching it um is some degree of perfection as to wanting to make the awesomest thing possible.

So we are very seldom resting on our laurels. We're trying to keep all those balls juggling. Well, I want to thank you for all the hard work you do. It's much appreciated. Oh, likewise. We appreciate all the great designs. But anyway, I can see my desk. So we all know what that means.

It means this is the end of my drive to work. So instead of talking magic, it's time for me to be making magic. And I just want to thank you, Greg. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks so much for having me. Okay, and all you, I will see all you next time. Bye-bye.