Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - Drive to Work #127 - Worldwake, Part 1

Episode Date: May 30, 2014

Mark starts with the first (of a three-part series) about the design of Worldwake.

Okay, I'm pulling out of the parking lot. You all know what that means. Well, A, it means that I've dropped my daughter off at spring break camp. But B, it means it's time for drive to work. Okay, so today I'm going to start talking about the design of World Wake. So last time I talked design in my podcast, I talked about Zendikar and a lot of the, I did a lot of cards and stories. Today I'm continuing the Zendikar block by talking about Worldwake. Okay, so, to start with, my previous Who's Who podcast, I explained that I'm not going to spend a lot of time on people anymore. That's going to be for the Who's Who's podcast.

But I do want to talk about who designed the set. So the set was led by Ken Nagel. And on the team was Kelly Diggs, who used to work on, who used to be editor-in-chief of the website, and then was an editor, and currently, besides being an editor, also does some creative stuff. Mark Lobis, known from the first Great Designer Search, is the producer of Magic, and a designer. Matt Place was a developer, was a development representative for the set, and myself. So Ken Nagel, this was his first lead, first time being a lead designer. So what happened was Ken came in second in the first great designer search, losing out to Alexis Jansen,

although they both did well enough that they each got an internship, and Ken managed to turn his internship into a full-time job. Ken then went on to be on a whole bunch of different teams. Finally, we decided it was time for his own team. And our policy is basically, metaphorically, we throw you in the pool. We've got a lifeguard standing by, which would have been me on the team, and see what you can do. Ken did a great job.

So the idea of the second set, to explain real clearly, is this was a small winter second set. Usually a set like that is there to be a continuation of a large set and do more. You want a few twists, you want a few new things, but a lot of what the small set is doing is being a continuation of a large set. So most of the themes in World Wake were mostly evolution of stuff that Zendikar had done. There's a few exceptions, and I'll get to those. Okay. So Zendikar was the land set.

It obviously had a lot of land things. So landfall being the biggest thing. The biggest difference between Zendikar and Landfall in Worldwake was... In Zendikar, it was only on creatures. So Worldwake introduced it to spells. And the way the spells worked was, if you cast a spell and you'd already played a land, then the effect got bigger.

You drew two cards. Oh, no, you drew three cards. That kind of thing. We also had more landfall effects that were a little more static in nature. Mostly the way they worked in Zendikar is they created a spell-like effect or they enhanced the creature it was on until end of turn.

And there were a few cards in Worldwake that created static effects that didn't affect themselves but affected the board that would happen until the end of turn. There also was, I'll talk about this card, but there also was a card in which you paid mana when you, you know, landfall and you paid mana to get the effect. So there were little tweaks on landfall.

Kicker, the Kicker was in Zendikar because one of the things the land set did is made you play a lot of land, and so you got a lot of land in play, and we're like, oh, well, we should give you something to do with all that extra mana kicker works really well in fact, the evolution of multi-kicker, something new for

Zendikar, I'm sorry, new for Worldwake was kicker, but you could pay the cost as many times as you wanted we actually had designed multi-kicker for Zendikar because, the same thing, we wanted to let you use your mana as efficiently as possible, so like what's even better than kicker? Multi-kicker for Zendikar because the same thing. We wanted to let you use your mana as efficiently as possible. So, like, what's even better than kicker? Multi-kicker.

But when we were trying to give a definition to Worldwake, we realized that there was a lot going on in Zendikar, so we held it back. That's very, very common for us to do, which is the first set will design something and then realize they don't need it and they will hold it for the second set. A lot of what goes on in design,

this is part of block design, but is figuring out what you need and using what you need and then saving what you don't need for future sets. Early in Magic, each set would just kind of do as much as they could and we weren't as good about saving things for later sets. We did some, but we've gotten better over the years of saying, oh, we're designing all these sets,

not just this set, and that we're prioritizing the block being the best that we can be rather than each set being the best that we can be. We don't want the first set to be awesome, the second and third set go eh, because we didn't save things for them. Next, traps. The big evolution of traps, or at least one evolution, is these traps worked against specific colors

so these traps were it would call out that they specifically would work well against one color so they were sort of color themed traps and that was the major twist quests, I mean we did new quests I'm not sure we evolved quests all that much. But there were new quests and new things you could do.

We definitely had a bunch more quests where you worked your way up there, and then once you were done, it stayed and had a static ability. We played around with that a little more. Allies. Allies were still here. So one of the things about allies is when we design what I call linear mechanic, which is we're going to make something new, a new deck that's really the crux of the deck is showing up in this block. One of the things development has to deal with is how many cards do you put in the first set?

Do you put enough that the deck is viable and tournament worthy? Because if you do that, then you have trouble putting too many more powerful cards in the later sets. And so there's a balance between wanting to have enough cards to sort of make the deck, but not so many cards that you don't have room to make more good cards. And definitely on Zendikar, or Zendikar block, development made the call to make the ally deck kind of come into its own in the second block. So it was there in the first block and it mattered in limited and for casual constructed but it didn't really

become a tournament viable thing and it didn't even make it into its fringe until the second set and the second set did more of what we did in the first set if you remember my talk the wizards and the clerics and the fighters all those were continued.

There's a little bit more, what I would call, just cards that didn't follow that pattern, but just were things that liked having allies around, what I call countenies, that are just like, hey, I'm better, the more allies there are. I'll talk about some of those in the card-by-cards. Next, vampires. So the vampires were, Zendikar was the first, vampires. So the vampires were,

Zendikar was the first time the vampires were a characteristic race, which means they were the small, plentiful, at common race for black. We continued that. There was a bunch of vampire tribal that went on, probably allies and vampires were the two main things that had a lot of tribal, little tiny bit of core. And vampires, we didn't really do too much

more other than we played up a little bit more of stuff for your vampire deck. The bloodied mechanic, which said you got better if your opponent had ten or less life. We carried that over. There's a little bit of blood in the set. But the vampires really were just giving you more vampires so you could make your vampire deck. Kind of like allies as well. Just giving you

more for that deck. It didn't evolve the deck too much. I mean, there was a few lordish creatures that helped you. Next is the core. So the core, as I explained during my Zendikar, the core originally were from Tempest, and they had been taken to Wrath from somewhere else. And we finally learned when we get to Zendikar,

this is where they were from. They were from Zendikar. They have an equipment, I want to say affinity I don't mean the actual affinity mechanic, but the English word of affinity. They work well with equipment, and we continued that theme in Zendikar and in

Worldwake. We continued in Worldwake from Zendikar. The one big new thing that we actually really didn't do in Zendikar, we saved for Worldwake, was making land sort of come alive. So one of the themes, for those that may not know the Zendikar story, Zendikar was a plain that was wild, and planeswalkers used to go there because there was lots of treasures hidden away. But there was something wrong.

And as the story went along, you realize that the land was kind of, the reason it was so wild was it was reacting to something. And what it was reacting to, for those that know the third set, trapped inside were the Eldrazi. And so the Zendikar did not like having the Eldrazi trapped inside them. It wasn't doing nice things.

And so one of the things that this set was trying to show is the world was getting wilder. So we liked the idea of the animated land thing as a theme in this set. And there were a couple ways we showed it off. at. And there are a couple ways we showed it off. The biggest way we showed it off, the highest profile way, was there was a cycle of rare what people call man lands, although

I'm not sure that, I don't know, nowadays people lands, or I'm not sure the current term for them, but creature lands are lands that come into play as lands, and then you can spend mana to animate them into creatures for the turn. This war cycle were allied dual lands, came into play tapped, and then you could animate them.

Now, the interesting thing about this was, we were like, okay, these are good. We were very proud of these. We were like, this is going to be exciting. People will love these. And it came out, and it was sort of like, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp. Like, people didn't quite get right away how good these were. And here's the best way to think of it, which is, when we give you come and play tap dual lands,

we're allowed to give you a little bit of extra. A little tiny bit of extra. You know, you can get gate status, or you can gain a life. Turning into a creature every turn, you know, for no loss of card advantage of any kind, way more than a little bit. That's a lot. And as you see, I'll talk about it a little bit as we go through card by card,

but they were quite good. Also, we had a common cycle we called the Zendikons. They were auras that went on lands, and they enchanted lands, and they animated them into creatures. And then, if that creature ever died, you would get back the aura. So the idea was, I would turn my forest into a creature. Well, if the forest ever died, you would get back the aura. So the idea was I would turn my forest into a creature.

Well, if the forest ever died, I would get the enchantment back and I could turn a different forest into a creature. So the idea is you could kill any one forest, but I could keep making more forests animated. And so it helped make it... It was pretty good about keeping up the threat. There were a few other individual cards, but pretty much those are the major themes of playing up the threat. There were a few other individual cards, but pretty much those are the major themes

of playing up the creature lands. Okay, so there were seven cycles in this set. I've talked about a few of them, but I'll run through. So the allied beneficiaries were creatures that said if a particular other land was in play, got a bonus. If you remember from Alpha, Sedge Troll cared about if you had a

swamp in play. And then we did Crude Ape that cared about if you had a forest in play. These cards were kind of like that. Those were probably the inspirations for it. So we had the enemy color-activated traps, and so those were the traps that worked specifically against

one of the enemy colors, that it wasn't just a trap, it was a trap against a specific color. We had the common landfall instance. I talked about this, that there were instances that got stronger if you had played a land this turn. Common multi-kicker creatures. I think the common ones all got plus one, plus one counters if you kicked them. So the idea essentially was they were variable creatures, how big they could be.

We also did some ones that had ETB effects. I think those were at higher rarities. Next, we had common spell lands. That was a cycle that we had done in Zendikar, and we continued here. The idea was they were a cycle of lands, one for each color. Came to play tapped, tap for the color, and then when they came into play, they hadn't entered the battlefield effect.

There's a small flavorful effect that matched the color. Although something that obviously any color could do because anybody could play them. Next we had the rare man lands. People called them tap lands. And finally, with the Zendikon cycle I talked about, we animate the land.

So this was a normal size set, with the Zendikon cycle I talked about, we animate the land. Okay, so this was a normal size set, by the way, a normal size small set at the time, which was 145 cards, 60 common, 40 uncommon, 35 rare, 10 mythic. The expansion symbol was a hedron opening up to hint at the things to come. And the lead developer, by the way, for the set was Mike Turian. I'll talk about Mike a little bit when I get to the card-by-card stories. Okay, so let's talk individual cards. Okay, we'll start with A, Abyssal Persecutor. So Abyssal Persecutor was a two-black-black 6-6 Demon. We do love our 6-6 Demons.

It was flying and trample, and it had the simple ability that you can't win and your opponent can't lose while he's in play. So if you remember Platinum Angel from Mirrodin, which was a 4-4 Flying creature that said you can't lose and your opponent can't win and this is in play, we've turned that on its head. Now we were a little bit nervous

because usually you would think having cards that says you can't win, that's a pretty big downside. But players really, really liked this. This was very popular. And I mean, four mana for six six flying trample is not too bad. It does require you to figure out

how to get rid of it before the game ends, but black sacrifices creatures. It's not a... There's ways to work around it. And it does what we like with black, which is black offers you power at a cost, and that's very, very black. Next, Amulet of Vigor. It's an artifact that costs one, and it says whenever a permanent

U-Control enters the battlefield, untap it. So this card originally said, whenever a permanent U-Control would enter the battlefield tapped, instead it enters the battlefield untapped. And the goal of this was, there were a lot of lands in Zendikar block. We don't want lands to be better than basic lands, and so a lot of the time to sort of offset it, we have them enter the battlefield tapped, what we call ETBT. ETBT! And I was trying to basically say things that enter the battlefield tapped don't. That was the original design of this card when I made it. It turned out that the rules didn't like that. Doing it as a replacement effect caused some problems.

So what we ended up doing is just, whenever permanent you played into the battlefield, it just untapped it. And for all intents and purposes, it untapped things that came in play tapped, since untapped things were already untapped. Anowan the Ruin Sage. Three black black, legendary creature, four three.

He's a vampire. And during your upkeep, each player sacrifices a non-vampire creature. So this is a tech I think we first did with demons, where you have someone that sacrifices things, but to keep it from sacrificing itself, you say it sacrifices a non, the creature type it is. And the reason we do this is, it allows us to do an interesting form of a tribal card.

So when you think of lords in general, you tend to think of, oh, you know, let's say a vampire lord. I'm a vampire, and I grant all vampires some ability. Maybe I give them plus one, plus one. Maybe I give them counters when they do damage. I do something. I give them some bonus that says,

oh, with me in play, vampires are better. So this is a different way to do a lord-type card. I mean, it's not technically a lord because I'm not granting things. But it is a build-around-you tribal card. And the reason is, it says there's a negative in which vampires avoid the negative. So, for example, if I canoan out and a bunch of vampires

out, well, if all I have are vampires, I don't have to sacrifice anything, where you do have to sacrifice things. And so this card definitely says, oh, well, I'm better at playing with more vampires, and so it encourages vampires. And one of the things we did with vampires, I explained this a moment ago, is

it's not that we really made anything too new, but we made a lot of different cards that could encourage you to build a Vampire deck. And so we were trying to definitely make a Monoblock Vampire deck a viable thing. Next, Arbor Elf. So Arbor Elf is an elf for one green mana, elf druid,

1-1, and you can tap to untap a forest. This is an interesting card, which is a good example of how you can make a card that in one format does one thing and another format does another thing. So this card, in a limited format,

pretty much produces green. You know, you play a forest, you can untap a forest, for all intents and purposes, it's like a land award album. But, if you put this in a format with, in a larger format that has lands that have land types, such as dual lands that have land types,

this allows you to get access to other colors. So in one format, it's basically a land-award elf, but in another format, it's like a bird of paradise, although it's a 1-1 bird of paradise. That doesn't fly. But anyway, one of the things that's fun in design is making something where, being conscious of formats and saying, oh, I see, in one format it'll do this, but in a different format it'll do that.

And that's kind of fun to do. Next, Avenger of Zendikar. So it's five green and green. For 5-5 elemental. It has two abilities. When it enters the battlefield, you put a 0-1 plant token into play for each land you have. And then it has a landfall ability, which is put a plus one plus one counter on each plant. So this card does a whole bunch of things.

Some cards are very Virthosian in that they are just dripping with flavor. And some cards are very Melvovian, Melvian, on the Melvin side, saying that. So Vorthos really cares about flavor and wants cards that just drip flavor. Melvins want cards that just design-wise are cleverly designed. And this card is very cleverly designed. And let me walk through what's going on. So it has two abilities.

Both abilities care about lands. One of them counts lands to make tokens. The other cares about lands coming into play. And so what it does is it takes two abilities that might seem at first disparate, but they're not. They're very connected to each other. And they make interesting decisions on, you know... Now, obviously, this thing's expensive enough that you're going to have some land when you get it out, but the idea is, once I get the seven land, do I want to play this and hold some land in

my hand? Do I want to sort of play it and then play some land and beef up my creatures? Because the zero ones, they're not nearly exciting. This card also has a cute sideways of being a plant enabler, although most plants can't attack, so this clearly is designed to work with its own card. But anyway, this is just a card. It's a Melvin. My Melvin side. I have a

Vorthos side too, but my Melvin side really appreciates this card. Just a lot of things clicking together in a way that plays well, that just somatically holds tight. And there's some flavor here, and I'm not saying that Vorthos have to hate this card. It's an elemental that makes nature, loves nature, and grows,

and, you know, so that's kind of cool, too. Okay, next, Beastial Menace. So Beastial Menace is a sorcery for three green and a green. It makes a 1-1 snake, a 2-2 wolf, and a 3-3 elephant. So the funny story about this card is

we made a card called Cone of Flame many, many years ago. Cone of Flame did one damage to one target, two damage to a second target, three damage to a third target. Very popular. So right after it, I said, okay, I'm going to follow it up. I'm going to make Cone of Creature. And Cone of Creature made a 1, 1,

a 2, 2, and a 3, 3. At the time we didn't do it, we don't tend to make cards that make multiple token types on the same card. That's something we do very infrequently. And so I tried to get it made. People were like, eh, maybe we shouldn't make this. So I ended up writing an article in the Duelist where I talked about this, that I tried to make the card, but it had too many countertypes and, eh, well, we didn't make it. And in the article, I'm like, someday. So what happened was I liked this card, so I kept trying to put it in sets, and it never got made. So what happened was, I liked this card, so I kept trying to put it in sets,

and it never got made. So flash forward, and I'm writing the card-by-card story for Worldwake, and I see Beastfield Menace. I go, oh, Beastfield Menace. And so I write the story. I go, oh, well, that's what I explained. I'd made this card many years ago, and I tried to get the set many times. I go, I guess Ken must have thought it was time and put it in the set. And, you know, Ken felt like, oh, maybe this was the right place to have it. And so Ken put it in the set. And I said, it's funny, you know, I've been trying to get this card in forever and the set finally gets put in. I didn't even put it in the set. So I turn my article in and I get a note. I get a call from my editor, Kelly Diggs, who was also on the design team, if you remember. Kelly says, Mark, I need to correct your article.

You in your article said that Ken put one of your designs in the set. I go, yeah, that's what I assumed happened. He goes, no, no, no. I made Beast Shield Menace. So what had happened was, Kelly

had no idea I'd made this card. Kelly had never read the article where I talked about Shield Menace. So what had happened was, Kelly had no idea I'd made this card. Kelly had never read the article where I talked about making this card. He didn't know. He just made a card all on his own that he thought was a cool card. So this is what we call parallel design, where it is very possible for two people to make the same card without realizing the other one has made it.

In this case, we did it many years apart. Sometimes it happens within the exact same design. In Hollywood, there's a phenomenon that goes on where in Hollywood there's this phenomenon that goes on

where there's a movie that no one's ever made and then all of a sudden within like a three month period two movies come out you know it's a movie like there hasn't been

a movie about volcanoes in forever and then two movies about volcanoes two movies about Christopher Columbus two movies about an asteroid hitting the earth you know it's just like two movies about volcanoes. Two movies about Christopher Columbus. Two movies about an asteroid hitting the Earth.

You know, it's just like, two movies about ants. Whatever it is, it's like, all of a sudden, you know, there was no movies about it. And then, in a short period of time, there's two movies. This happens a lot in design, too, where, you know, one of us will make a card, and the other one makes a card, and then it's almost the same card. Now, sometimes it's obvious because we're mining the same space. It's like, oh, well, we both did the obvious thing. I'm not even talking about that.

The ones that are weirder is when it tangentially fits the set, but, like, you just both come up with really weird things, and, like, how did both of us come up with this card at the same time? But it happens a lot. And in here, it happened. So, anyway, if you enjoyed Beersweet Menace, thank Kelly Diggs. He's the one that actually got in the set.

But it's funny because a lot of people had read my article, so Kelly was constantly like, no, no, no, I made this card. So props to Kelly. I'm glad he got it in because it's a cool card. Bajookabog. So this is part of the Spell Land cycle. So the way the cycle works is it comes to play tapped.

This particular one taps for a black. And then when it enters the battlefield, exile all cards in the target player's graveyard. So for those who don't know, I am a big fan of the graveyard. I made Odyssey. I made Innistrad. I made Dark Ascension. Odyssey, I made Innistrad, I made Dark Ascension.

I, in fact, if there was a format in which you could only build, like, your deck, you had to pick one designer, and then all the cards in your deck had to be designed by that one designer, I believe what has a very, very good chance of winning that tournament is my graveyard deck,

the Rosewater graveyard deck. I made Dredge Mechanic, Bridge from Below, Narcomiba, name it. If it's a powerful card that involves a graveyard, I made well, well over probably half

in existence. And probably being a little generous, I probably made more than that. I made a lot of the tournament. I love the graveyard. So, anyway, this one hurt me. I hate when we make cards that get rid of the entire graveyard. I'm like, really? That's a common effect? That's a simple effect? But it turns out it only costs

one mana, which is what we were doing for these effects. I tried to find something else for this, although to be fair, I wasn't leading as Ken was. I tried to convince Ken to change this, but we just couldn't find another ability. It's interesting that Innistrad came up after this. I don't really think we were trying to plant answers for Innistrad

ahead of time. Normally we plant answers within the set, not ahead of time. But, uh, but anyway, this was a spell cycle that made me the least happy, although it got played. Okay, Kelsite Snapper. So, trivia question. What was the design name for Kelsite Snapper. So, trivia question.

What was the design name for Kelsite Snapper? And the answer is Convertible Turtle. So this was the card that I was on Twitter one day, and I made some, like, comment. When I'm doing design, I can't say much because I can't give away designs. And so I had an innocuous tweet, like, today I designed Convertible Turtle.

And people were like, what's Convertible Turtle? I'm like, I can't tell you. They're like, oh, you've got to today I designed Convertible Turtle. And people were like, what's Convertible Turtle? I'm like, I can't tell you. They're like, oh, you've got to tell us what Convertible Turtle does. I'm like, well, it's in the set. I can't tell you. Okay, the day Convertible Turtle comes out, you must tell us what Convertible Turtle does. And they were guessing. Now, it used landfall, so they didn't know the mechanics.

There's no way they were going to guess it. So, oh, by the way, Convertible Turtle, Calcite Snapper, I'm going to tell you what it does. It's one blue blue for a 1-4 Turtle. It has Shroud, and with Landfall, you swap its power and toughness. So when I originally made the card, it had everything there except it wasn't Shroud. And the cost might have been different.

So mine was basically just, when you played Landfall, it swapped from a 1-4 to a 4-1. So the problem with swapping power and toughness is that it gets confusing what happens when other things affect power toughness. I will give my example. Imagine this creature you put a Fire Breathing Ore on it. Okay. So

if I Fire Breathe my creature instead of a 1-4 I make it a 2-4 Okay. Then I use Landfall Okay. It of a 1-4, I make it a 2-4, okay, then I use Landfall. Okay, it was a 2-4, now it becomes a 4-2. Now, I use the fire-breathing again. Okay, now is it a 5-2? Or is it a 4-3? Where does that

go? And it is confusing when you have further power toughness affecting things. And so, the answer just to make this easier was to put Shroud on it. Now, for those that might not know Shroud, before Hexproof, Hexproof says nobody can target, I'm sorry, Hexproof says nobody else can target my stuff. Shroud says nobody can target my stuff, including me. And so by putting Shroud on this creature, we way, way, way lessened the ability for you to have power toughness affecting things after you've used this ability

not impossible there are a few but none in the set so none for limited and just in general it's a hard thing to do so the reason this got pushed back was we were trying to figure out how to solve it and it wasn't until world wake that we figured out the shroud technology so that's why

it ended up being Worldwake. And we might have lost it to numbers. We had a bunch of landfall cards, and so we got pushed out. We had too many landfall cards, and so Worldwake took it. But anyway, Worldwake kindly made Convertible Turtle. And when it came out, in fact, I previewed this card, I believe, on Twitter. This was my preview card. So one of the things I try to do, I usually get a social media preview card.

And the thing that I try to do is I like to preview more goofy stuff. Usually a lot of tournament-level stuff is being in articles and things. And so I like showing off stuff that's a little more on the goofy side. And Convertible Turtle being kind of Twitter-born in some ways. It was obvious that had to be my Twitter preview. Okay, next. Celestial Colonnade. Okay, so this is one of the

tap land, the creature lands at rare. So it enters the battlefield tapped. It taps for white or blue. And then for three white, blue, so for five mana, it turns into a 4-4 flying creature with Vigilance, blue, so for five mana, it turns into a 4-4 flying creature with vigilance. Okay, so for five mana, it turns into a

Sarah Angel. Okay, remember what I said before. When we make tap lands, dual tap lands, we have a little bit of space. Remember? Gate, gain a life, or Sarah Angel! You get to make a Sarah Angel. So anyway, that's a sign of how powerful these things were,

and that that was a lot. You were getting a lot. The ability to, for example, not have to have a wind condition on your land is pretty, pretty potent. A little bit better than I'm a gate. And anyway, these eventually became popular. It took a little while.

It is funny. One of the things that happens in sets is we think, well development will figure out what they consider the good cards to be from future future testing and they don't completely know one of the tendents of development is if they knew everything, then you guys would figure it out in two seconds because there's millions of people playing constantly

so we make an environment complex enough that we have some idea and usually development knows which cards are the better cards. They don't necessarily know what the decks are, so you know, you could be a good card and not have a deck that makes sense, and so maybe you don't end up getting played in tournaments, but they know what the good cards are, and they knew that these lands were good. And so what happens is, when we put them out, we want the people to see what we consider the good cards to be. But sometimes, either it's just kind of hidden how good the card is

so the players don't see it right off the bat, or the deck that would need to be there just isn't there or people haven't found it yet. So people might go, oh, this seems powerful in the right context. Is that context there? And so a lot of times, one of the things about watching previews is, will people get excited by stuff? And sometimes you know cards are really good and players either

take the time to figure that out or the context that makes them real good isn't as apparent, you know, or isn't right there. Because usually people look at existing decks to see how the cards go in existing decks. And then eventually players will figure out new things and new decks to make with them. But unless the deck is super linear,

it takes a little bit of time to figure that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you get an ally deck. Allies says put all the allies in a deck. So that gets figured out quickly. Okay. I am at Wizards. And that, I made it all the way to C. In fact, I didn't even finish the Cs. I have more Cs to talk about. So obviously,

I have some more podcasts to do. But, hopefully you guys are enjoying hearing all about WorldWake. Like I said, it was Ken's first design. I think Ken did a good job. And I will continue in future podcasts to talk a little bit more about the car-by-car designs.

But, as I've pulled into my parking space, not my parking space, a parking space, I want to say that as much as I love pulled into my parking space, not my parking space, a parking space, I want to say that as much as I love talking about magic design and magic history and world-wide history, even more,

I like making magic. So I gotta go make some more magic. I'll talk to you guys next time. Thanks for joining me.