Magic: The Gathering Drive to Work Podcast - Drive to Work #53 - Tales From The Boat

Episode Date: September 13, 2013

Mark talks about Magic's history with The Queen Mary, docked in Long Beach, California.

Okay, I'm pulling on my driveway. We all know what that means. It's time for another drive to work. Okay, so today, many, many weeks ago, I did a podcast about the Pro Tour, and I realized that there were a lot of fun Pro tour stories to tell and that every once in a while i thought might be fun so real quickly a little history with myself um which is um i got involved with the pro tour very early on and so i was with the pro tour i went to every single pro tour you know barring one or two um for eight years i believe um so anyway I have a lot of stories from those times, and it's fun to sort of peek back and look at some of the tales of the Pro Tour. So today, I've dubbed today's episode, Tales from the Boat. Okay, what does that mean? See, Pro Tour regulars will know what that means, but I will explain. So the Pro Tour moves around, and there's a lot of different locales the Pro Tour has been in.

It's been all around the world. It's been on every continent save, I guess we haven't had a Pro Tour yet in Africa, South America, or Antarctica, but we've had Pro Tours on every other continent. And we've had other events. For example, invitationals have happened in both Africa and South America. Anyway, but one of our most constant, like, most of the time we went to different places,

but there were a few places that we repeated. And probably the most famous place that held multiple Pro Tours was what the pros call The Boat, but it's known as the Queen Mary. This is down in Los Angeles, technically in Long Beach, I believe. And so the Queen Mary, once upon a time, was a luxury cruise liner that would sail, I think, to Britain and back.

And eventually they retired it, and it got docked in Long Beach, and now it's a hotel, But it's a cruise ship. And so they rent out the bottom to do events. And it has a giant, you know, it's got a lot of space, so it's proved to be actually very good for the Pro Tour. Now, so my stories today are about the early, these are the early years. I'm going to tell stories from the first four years of the Pro Tour, because each year of the Pro Tour, we went on the boat. And I realized that each year, there's a story for me to tell from the boat. And so I'm going to tell those stories today. Okay, so we start year one, PTLA1, which is the second Pro Tour ever held.

LA won, which is the second Pro Tour ever held. The PTLA was the very first Pro Tour to ever have a PTQ system to qualify. As I explained in my first Pro Tour podcast, there was no qualifying tournaments to get into the first Pro Tour. You called up on the phone, or you qualified through rating and such. So the other thing about the first PT was it was the first limited Pro Tour. The Pro Tour in New York was constructed, and the Pro Tour in L.A. was the first time we were doing limited play drafts.

Particularly, I believe it was Rochester Draft. So for those that don't know what Rochester Draft is, you take a pack, you open it up, you spread out the cards, and then each person drafts one. You go one through eight, and then eight back through one, or back through two, usually. And so it's all the cards are drafted. Then you shift over position and do the same thing. So Rochester draft is very

different from booster draft because it's all open knowledge. Every single pick is a known thing. Nobody has any secrets. In booster draft, for example, the first pick is a known thing. Nobody has any secrets. You know, in booster draft, for example, the first pick is not known. You know, in later picks, you might see things getting passed, so you have some idea maybe what someone has,

but you don't really know. You don't definitively know who took something other than what you took. And so it helps. Rochester is a very different format. Now, it's funny. When we first got into it, we thought Rochester was going to be the thing.

I ended up, booster draft became the thing, and Rochester sort of fell by the wayside. The thing that did it in was, it's just hard to do. And there's a lot of feel-bad moments, because there's all this information that players are supposed to think they know. Here's an interesting game design. It explores an interesting game design phenomenon, by the way. game design, explores an interesting game design phenomenon, by the way, which is that if you give players open information, a certain style

player feels that they're obligated to know that information. And what happens is if you give them too much information, they both feel obligated to know it and are incapable of learning it all. And so it's a feel-bad moment where they're trying so hard to process all the information,

but they're just unable to. I mean, Booster Draft, other than, I mean, beside the fact that it's just easier to run, it's quicker, it also allows players to kind of not be so public in their mistakes, that one of the things that's hard for players when they first start out is players are happier if their mistakes aren't so public early on. That, you know, if they make decisions that aren't optimal, that they're not being judged by everybody in the game. And Rochester, because everything's open, kind of does that.

Now, once again, among really established players who know what they're doing, Rochester is a lot of fun. And it's a very skill-testing format. A very skill-testing format. But it does not work as well, like I said, for a lot of fun. And it's a very skill-testing format, a very skill-testing format. But it does not work as well, like I said, for a bunch of reasons. It also takes three times as long to run. And there's a bunch of issues that keep it from being

why we ended up going more with Booster Draft than with Rochester Draft. It's just interesting to note that we thought we were going to go the other way when we first started. So anyway, we're on the boat. PTLA won. And so what happens is we cut to the boat. PTLA won. And so what happens is

we cut to the top eight. So one of my jobs when I was on the pro tour was I was in charge of the final day and the video. In the beginning I actually did the commentary.

In fact, for PTLA Mark Justice and I what I would do I'd always get one of the pro players to do color with me, and then we would share. Every pro tour would be a different person or persons to do it with me.

Eventually, after a year, we clued out that I was not the best at doing commentary, and I got other people to start doing it, which will probably be another whole podcast. But, this particular one, I was still doing it, and Merc Justice and I, I think I explained this in the other podcast, did a giant long podcast, which took forever. It was like a 10-hour, it was long.

And we were in this phone booth because that was the only place they could find it. It was a soundproof booth. Anyway, I explained that story already. Okay, so here's the story of the day. We're cutting to top eight. Now, my job was I would meet with the top eight. I would discuss. I would sort of walk them through what the next day entailed, what the video was going to be.

And I would usually gather information from them. Usually information so the next day when we're doing the broadcast, I know their ages and where they're from and what they did for a living and stuff like that. So anyway, one of the top eight was a guy named... I'm blanking on his name. Dominic Kravchets is his name. So by the way, real quick, I like to toss this aside, credit where I can.

If you guys have ever played the game Wits and Wagers, Dominic Rabichette is the designer of that game. He went on to have a career as a game designer. But anyway, this was the second ever Pro Tour. It was Dominic's first Top 8. He would later go on to Top 8. His most famous

was he played in the finals against John Finkel in New York, which was the very first Pro Tour John Finkel won. He beat Dominic in the finals against John Finkel in New York, which was the very first Pro Tour John Finkel won. He beat Dominic in the finals to win. Anyway, this is Dominic's first Top 8. He's very excited. And I talked to all of them, and Dominic goes off. So, after everybody leaves, Scott Johns comes up.

Scott Johns, I've mentioned him previously. He spent a while working at Wizards of the Coast as the editor-in-chief of MagicTheGathering.com. He also worked on many other websites. He did a lot of editing and worked with writers. He also is one of the few people in the world to have five top eights. Anyway, I've talked about him.

Scott Johns comes up and says to our person doing the scorekeeping, says to them, oh, I don't think this is right. You had me down as having one less win than I did. And so they looked through the record, and they realized that Scott's final match, he had won,

but they'd inadvertently marked it down as a loss. And so it turns out that Scott actually was in the top eight and so, now it's funny one of the things about the pro tour in general was we had procedures for how we did things and a lot of the way it worked is we'd make a mistake and then we'd change the procedure so after that pro tour

whenever we'd have a top eight we would announce the top eight and then give people X amount of time to come talk to us if they feel it was in error. But after, you know, five minutes or whatever, then, like we're saying, this is the final total. So, because to prevent this from happening

where, like, we'd already talked to everybody, they'd already left. But anyway, Scott legitimately was in the top eight. We hadn't done that yet. And so we're like, okay, well, who is eighth? Who actually is in the top eight? Who's ninth? It was Dominic Kravicev.

Okay. So I have to find Dominic because I'm, I'm essentially, like I said, my job was, not only was I in charge of doing the video and stuff,

but I was, I was what they call the player liaison, which meant that, essentially meant if someone had to talk to the players, especially if it was

sort of a serious issue, I was the guy. I was the forward-facing guy. There were all sorts of different reasons I would talk to people. But, you know, I was the deliverer of bad news a lot. So they're like, okay, Mark, you've got to let Dominic know he's not in the top eight. So the problem was at the time was we didn't get information from them of where they were staying.

Once again, that changed. Very, very pro tour. When they would tell me their name and their age and all that, I would get their contact information so I could reach them. Also notice this is back in 95. So cell phones really aren't a thing yet. I mean, they existed, but most people didn't have them yet. So anyway, I'm trying to figure out where Dominic is. And is he at the hotel? No. Is he at some of the other hotels? No. And I ask around, and nobody knows where Dominic is. It turns out he's not staying at any of the hotels. And then someone finally says,

Oh, I think Dominic's sister lives in Los Angeles. I think he's staying with his sister. And so we try to figure out, but it turns out that his sister is married, so her last name isn't Kravachet, so we can't find him in the phone book. And we just can't find him. We just can't find him. So, okay, so I wake up early the next morning, and when Dominic shows up, I have to break the news to him that, Dominic, you're not in the top eight.

And it was not a fun time. And, to be honest, to Dominic's credit, he took it very, very well. I explained the situation to him. I explained that he actually was in top eight, that he was ninth. And he understood. I mean, obviously he was a little sad in the sense that he had prepared for, you know. And that's the reason we'd want to get him the night before. Because he had spent all night working and preparing for his final match, which didn't happen.

I'm happy to say he would later go on to top eight and do quite well. But anyway, that is my first story from the vote. The time I had to tell somebody that they weren't in the top eight. Luckily, the only time I ever had to do that, because that was not fun. Okay, we move on to the next year. Oh, by the way, so PT1 was won by a guy named Sean Regnier, who was nicknamed The Hammer, or Hammer Regnier. And Hammer was a professional arm wrestler

who also ran a comic shop called Hammer's Comics. And he used to play... The favorite quote about his store is... Someone in his shop said he doesn't play to win, he plays for fun. And Hammer goes, we play for fun.

You know what's fun? Winning. Anyway, Hammer was quite a character. Hammer played Tom Gavin in the finals of the second PT, the first Los Angeles PT. It was a grueling, grueling long match. I think it was 10 hours for the whole thing.

The match is famous for numerous things. Hammer was really good with playing mind games and gave in. I think he... Oh, no, no, no. That was a different... Hammer was playing

Preston Poulter in the semis, I believe. And Preston, like, just barely, barely loses. And then this Hammer got into his head and he sideboarded and completely changed his deck for the second game. Even though his first deck almost won the first game. And then in the match versus Gavin,

this incident where Gavin, like, was just, got so nervous that I think he threw up in the bathroom. Anyway. Tom Gavin, by the way, is got so nervous that I think he threw up in the bathroom. Anyway, Tom Gavin, by the way, is one of my favorite people to put in, to put into

Pro Tour coverage when I used to do the feature matches. But he was super entertaining. And, in fact, he just played in an event, a team event. And so I'm glad

he's still playing Magic. I like Tom. Tom's a lot. Tom is a cool guy, a lot of fun, always an awesome feature match. I would always pick him for feature matches because he would entertain. Okay, we flash forward a year to the boat. So this is now 96 of LA2.

So this is a pro tour that Tomi Hovi Magic Hall of Famer Tomi Hovi, it was the first pro tour he won Tomi won two pro tours he also would have won Rome a year later, a year and a half later

anyway, so this story is about Tomi actually I have two stories from this boat so let me tell and, uh, actually I have two stories, um, from this boat. Um, so let me tell you, I'll tell the lighthearted story first and then that's the lighthearted story second. Okay. So the first story is, um, so Tomi is from Finland.

Um, and interestingly, his English is decent, but he wasn't super comfortable in speaking English, even though his English was actually pretty good. And he was kind of shy at the time, which is funny by the way, because I would later be a guest of honor at Ropacon, which is the largest Finnish

gaming convention in Finland. And I had a chance to see Tomi in his natural habitat, and he was not remotely shy at home so it was funny to watch him on the tour he was a little shyer but anyway one of the things we used to do is

in between matches I would go and interview the contestants the finalists and so the finals was between Tommy Hovie and a guy named David Mills. And so David Mills was

part of Mike Long. Mike Long had a team. What was their team name? See if I can pull this out. It was called I should know this. I can't blink in on it. Maybe it'll come to me in a sec. But anyway, Dave Mills was part of Mike Long's team.

Anyway, we'll get to Dave Mills in a second. So anyway, I was interviewing each of them beforehand. So I'm interviewing Tomi Hobie. And so anyway, I have a whole list of questions and stuff for him. And so I say, so Tom know, you've made the finals. How does it feel to make the finals? And Tommy's like, good. And so, like, I keep asking questions, and he just keeps answering with one-word answers.

So I keep asking more and more elaborate questions to try to get him to open up and answer. And just he keeps answering with one-word questions. And no matter what I do, I just can't, I cannot get him to say more than one word. And I'm trying, I'm dancing around, I'm asking all sorts of questions, and finally, I just, I mean, you can tell I'm not a professional interviewer,

I just, the whole situation, the craziness of the situation is that I just can't get him to say anything, and I start laughing. And I mean, I really start laughing, and I cannot stop. I think there's a video clip you can probably see with me on YouTube or something, although it cuts. You see me start laughing, and they cut. But I did not stop laughing for a couple minutes. I just couldn't stop laughing. And I'm apologizing to Tommy, but it was so funny to me

that I just could not get him to talk. Anyway, that's the late-hearted story. You can learn my bad interviewing skills. Okay, so now let's get to the real meat and potatoes of PTLA-2. Now, because I'm about to tell you about the riot. So let me explain what happened.

Yes, there was once a riot at a PT. Now, I mean, there's nothing to burn or anything. Just, I'll explain. Okay, so David Mills, like I said, oh, Tongo Nation. Tongo Nation was the name of Mike Long's team, and David Mills was a member of Tongo Nation. So one of the things that David Mills did was he had a tendency to play a spell before he tapped his mana. Now, out there, you're saying, what is wrong with that? You are allowed

to play your spell before you tap your mana. And the answer is, now you are, but back then you were not. And back then, you had to tap your mana before you played the spell. And it was considered, it was an offense. I don't know how high, but it was an offense. But David Mills was just used to playing that way. And so what happened was, during the course of the weekend, he would get warnings from the judges for it. Now, it was not a major warning.

You know, it was not a... No one thought he was cheating. It was just... The rules said you couldn't do it, and he kept doing it. So he would get warned by the judges. And so finally, we get to the top eight, and, you know, the judge pulls him aside and says, Dave, you've got to stop doing this.

You have to play, you know. And so Dave's like, the top eight, and the judge pulls him aside and says, Dave, you've got to stop doing this. You have to play, you know. And so Dave's like, okay, okay, okay. But he knew that it wasn't something he was consciously thinking about. It was just how he played. And this was a stressful day. He was on camera in the finals of the Pro Tour. His energy was very focused on winning and playing, and it just wasn't on changing the style of how he played his cards.

And so he kept playing his style before he played his cards. And so he kept playing his style before he tapped his mana. And the judges would warn him. And the warning escalated. And so finally the judge said to him, that's it. Next time, you lose. You're going to lose the next time

you do that. And so it's in the... So I think what happened was I think game one, um, I think game one is won by Mills. I think in game two was won by Hovey and then game three was won by Mills. So we're in game four. Uh, if Mills wins this, he wins. Okay, so Mills is playing, and he needs a land to play something in his hand.

I don't remember what it was, but it was something good. It was something that if he got out... Remember, this was a limited pro tour, by the way. I think they Rochester drafted. But anyway, Mills had something in his hand. I know it was a black flyer. I remember exactly what the card was. But anyway, Mills had something in his hand. I know it was a black flyer. I remember exactly what the card was.

But anyway, he's waiting to get to his land. And once he plays it, it's a really good creature. His chance of winning goes way up. So he's stuck on land. Draw, no. Draw, no. Draw, no. Finally, he draws the land.

He throws it down, and he throws the spell from his hand on the table. But he didn't tap his mana. And so, the judge stops him. You know, now be aware, be aware, David Mills, pretty much, this card is going to help him win. Like he's, you know, a turn or two away from winning with this card. And so he's just excited because he's like, oh my god, I'm going to win a pro tour. And the judge stops him. He goes, you did not tap your mana, now be aware, the spell that he played cost all his mana,

there's no possible advantage he has to gain from this, he's just excited, and he's going to tap all his mana to play the card, there's no information he gleaned, it's not like he can gauge his opponent and tap the right manna to save something up or whatever. No. He's tapping all his manna to play this card. But he's excited. And the problem is the judges have given him warning after warning after warning.

And so the judges officially say, that's it. You're out. And what? David Mills, he has lost the match. What? Okay, so behind the scenes, we have a little powwow. I'll get to that in a moment. In front of the scenes, the players are watching this game,

and all the players, now be aware, the way it worked is, we're off in a separate room with a camera on us, so that the audience could ooh and ah and say stuff, and the players don't, because we were showing hands and things, we didn't want the player reaction to give information to the finalists. And so they're sequestered in a room. Meanwhile, everybody else is watching on TVs in the main part of the boat, and so, you know, the people watching understand that what's going on, it's a tiny technical foul. You know, that he made a mistake, but there's no advantage to come from it.

It's just a tiny technical foul. And the fact that the pro tour is going to, you know, that he's going to be disqualified because he made a tiny technical error that doesn't even impact the gameplay. So the players go bonkers. And Mark Justice, for those who don't know Mark Justice, so Mark Justice was, in my mind, the first player to kind of be universally considered the best player in the world. He won the U.S. Nationals in 1995.

He then went on to be third at Worlds that year. And then at the very first Pro Tour, he came in top eight. And then at Worlds the following year, he came in second. Mark is someone who is just, I mean, in my mind, he should be in the Hall of Fame.

He has four top eights. His actual play average, he only played a short period of time because a lot of his career was pre the Pro Tour existing. Like, they don't count his U.S. Nationals or his Worlds or the early stuff that was pre-Pro Tour, though I do,

and I feel like the Magic Pro Tour is a little bigger than Justice Pro Tour. But anyway, and Justice was the one I was doing commentary with. But anyway, Justice was, like, Justice was, like,

jumping on tables and, like, we can't let this happen. You know, because Justice was, like, he was very invested and wanted to be a pro player and, like, he felt that this was

a great injustice. Ironically, Justice felt it was an injustice. And so he is jumping on tables and trying to rally the crowd and the crowd is getting mad. So while that is going on tables and trying to rally the crowd, and the crowd is getting mad. So while that is going on, on the outside, behind the scenes, there are five people having a conversation. Let me spell out those five people for you. The first

person was Tom Wiley. So if you don't know Tom Wiley, Tom Wiley was the first rules manager. I mean, right now the rules manager is Matt Tabak, but if you dial back. Tom originally, I think there was a news group that answered rules questions, and Tom used to jump in all the time and answer rules questions. And Wizards was impressed with him, so they ended up offering him a job. And when I first came to Wizards, in fact, when I flew to Gen Con to try to get more work out of Wizards, that's when I first met Tom, and Tom and I hung out there and we became friends. So anyway, Tom was the head judge of the event. Tom was our first level five judge, and he had judged a lot of the early things. The reason he had judged

was we liked the idea that the rules manager was the head judge. Most of our head managers have had judging experience, and it's also, there's someone that really knows the rules real well, and so they can help in judging. So, there was Tom. There was Scaf Elias. I talked

about Scaf. Scaf was part of the East Coast Playtesters, part of the team that designed Ice Age and Alliances and Fallen Empires and Antiquities. Scaf. Scaf was part of the East Coast Playtesters, part of the team that designed Ice Age and Alliances and Fallen Empires and Antiquities. Scaf, I also talked about being the creator of the Pro Tour. So Scaf was one of the major players that helped run the Pro Tour and

organized how it got put together. So Scaf was a major player on the Pro Tour. Next is Andrew Finch. So Andrew Finch no longer works at Wizards, but he, for a long time time was the tournament manager. He was the person that would run. He was not the head judge, but he was the person in charge of organizing the tournament,

making sure all the logistics and everything were happening, that the sealed product for the draft was there, and all the tables were set up and all the logistics. He ran the tournament. So Andrew was the tournament manager. Then there was Henry Stern. Henry Stern, former pro player, but at the time he was R&D. And Henry was another person that went to a lot of the pro tours.

And Henry had been very involved in the pro tour before he joined Wizards. So he went to a lot of the pro tours and helped out. And then there was me. As I explained, I was judging. Mostly I ran the feature match during the days of the matches, and then I ran the video on the third day. So I was running the video. In fact, I was pretty sure I was doing commentary for this Pro Tour.

So the five of us are in a room. I'm like, what is going on? Now beware, we are the five Wizards people who are kind. I'm like, what is going on? Now beware, we are the five wizards people who are kind of the most responsible for what's going on. And so the five of us powwow to say, what's happening here? So let me walk through each person's opinion on what is happening. So Tom Wiley is like, the judges made a ruling. We have to support the judges.

He is the head judge. He goes, there is no question. If they have DQ'd him, he is DQ'd. So next is Scaffilize. So Scaff is like, look guys, this is marketing.

The point of the Pro Tour is to show off what the game can do. Having a Pro Tour end on a technical foul is crazy. It's not good marketing. We should not be doing this. We then come to Henry Stern. And Henry's like, look, we got rules.

We got to support the rules. If we go back on our own rules, we're going to look weak. Look, we've made the rules. If we don't like the rules, change the rules. But we've got to follow our rules. So then we come to me. And I'm like, my job on the Pro Tour was the players and the media and coverage. The reason I was doing feature matches and the video was I was in charge of, you know,

sort of how it all looked from the outside of trying to get people interested in the players and the themes and the games and I was trying to sort of, you know, make it exciting and interesting. And I'm like, guys, Pro Tour ends because Guy

doesn't tap his mana is a horrible horrible story. I said, here's what we want to do. It's game four. Give a game loss to David Mills. We go to the dramatic and final fifth game, winner take all. That is exciting.

Okay. So now we get to Andrew, who in the end is the tournament manager, who really it's his call. So he looks and he says, well, two people want to DQ David Mills. Two people want to give him a game loss and go back and finish the match. What do we do?

What do we do? So now, originally, David Mills was DQ'd without prize. That is what happens when you get DQ'd. And so Andrew's compromise was he DQued him, but he gave him the prizes. So he was dequeued with prize. And what he explained was it was a technical error. He broke the rules, so there had to be consequences. But we did not believe he gained any advantage from it. We did not believe he was cheating. So we let him have his prize money, which was thousands and thousands of dollars. So that was a big deal. In fact, one of my favorite

pro-tour moments, if you will, is we had a photographer on hand and when Andrew Finch explained to David Mills that he was VQ'd but without prizes, but with

prizes, David Mills realized for the first time that he could have lost the money, which he didn't understand that he could have lost. And he has this shocked look on his face that is just like, I don't know, in the photojournalism of magic. It's one of my favorites to sort of capture in a moment. And so Tomy would go on to win, which is very interesting, by the way. Another little side story is a year and a half later, I'm in Rome,

and the finals in Rome is Tomy versus... Who did he play in the finals? Not Llorati, because that was the semifinals. I don't remember. He's playing somebody in the finals. And Rome is the Pro Tour where it was the... We talk about it being the craziest, most powerful format we ever played. And like, oh, what was it? Vintage?

No standard. Just standard with Urza Saga. And the joke of that tournament was that there is the early game, that's shuffling. There was the mid- game that is rolling for, you know, it's mulliganing and rolling for who goes first. And then the end game was turn one.

Since there were decks that literally could kill on turn one, and a lot of decks killed within the first couple turns. Anyway, it was a very degenerate environment because Urza Saiga was very degenerate. But anyway, Tomy Hovi wins. And so I am interviewing him, the Glenn for punishment that I am. And I say to him, I go, Tomi, how do you feel? And finally, I get some words out of him. Tomi goes, I feel great. And I go, oh, well, you know, and what he says is, he goes, I finally won.

And I'm like, well, Toby, you won in L.A. He goes, no, no, no. He goes, I was given a Pro Tour in L.A. This Pro Tour, I won. And that, in his mind, he did not count PTLA as a win because he didn't actually win it. And he was so, so excited to win PT Rome because, like, he earned that. He had won that tournament. No one got disqualified.

He wasn't handed anything. He legitimately won it, and he was very proud. So, anyway, I realize, as I'm almost to work, that my grandiose idea... So here's what I think I'm going to do. I'm not going to make this a two-parter. Instead, I will just...

I will occasionally come and tell some Pro Tour stories. Um, it's not something I'll do a lot, but it's something that I, I, I do think one of the roles of this podcast has become to kind of be the historian of magic, and, um, I, I, I take that role seriously, and I'm, I'm trying to, as much as I can, sort of help people remember things, well, or let people know things that they themselves could not have been there for. Or let the old timers remember stuff too. But like I said,

we don't go to the boat anymore. The Pro Tour has kind of changed how it functions and the boat really doesn't make sense. But it's a part of PT history and I have a lot of very fond memories of being on the boat and of that play space, and like I said, I've got a few more stories I can tell later on about being on the boat.

But the thing that I, I don't know, one of the things that I always loved about going to play, like, one of the things about the Pro Tour was that it was exciting. Like, one of the things I loved about being on the Pro Tour is I went all over the world. I went to a Pro Tour in Japan, in Australia, all through Europe, all through the United States.

One of the things about my time at Wizards is I have traveled extensively. I have literally traveled to Antarctica. I have traveled to every continent on the planet to help run a magic tournament. And that is pretty exciting. In fact, one of these days, I will do a podcast on the Invitational.

That's actually, speaking of getting to exotic places, the Invitational's got me to Africa and South America and Australia, and anyway, all over the planet. But one of the things that is fun about the Pro Tour to me was that there's this strong sense of... I mean, we're traveling all around the world, going to all sorts of different places, exciting places, but there's a sense of camaraderie in that

I got to know the players really well. I mean, one of the reasons... I think everybody, when it comes to the Magic Hall of Fame, have different sort of vantage points. And one of my vantage points is I'm very protective of the early years, and I feel that a lot of the early Pro Tour history is slowly seeping away.

It's why I want to do podcasts like this, and that I feel like there are stars of the game that were mega, mega stars that I just don't think the average person today knows much about. It saddens me today that Justice is... I mean,

he had an event in which he did something shady at a Grand Prix and forever that defines him and I feel like it's sad that that has to be the thing that defines him, because he did so many amazing, glorious things, and he really was the first, in my mind, star Magic player, and that, I understand that there's some lows, but he also had a lot of highs, and that I, I'm, I wish some people remember some of that stuff, you know, like, I mean, real quickly, because I have a minute before I get there.

One of my favorite stories of Mark Justice is, I was, we were, he came to L.A., he lived in Utah. He came to L.A. because there was a, I don't know, a thousand-dollar tournament or something. And back in the day, this was before the Pro Tour, there were not a lot of high-money Pro Tours.

This was actually a pretty rare thing, that you're playing, you know, it's $1,000. And so Mark was in the finals. And I'm watching him. And I look at his hand. And his hand is full of land. And I'm trying to figure out what he's doing. And he's playing. And his shoulders are kind of sagging,

and, you know, and the weird thing is his hand is mostly land, but every once in a while he'll discard a land, and, you know, his opponent is attacking, and every once in a while Mark will play something to sort of stall with, but, you know, it's a very odd game where he's throwing away cards and keeping land, and I have no idea what's going on. And, like, ten turns later, Mark draws a Land's Edge, which is an enchantment in Enchant World that allows you to discard lands to do damage.

I think Lands Edge is the right name. And he draws it, plays it, throws his hand, kills the guy. And basically what had happened was he had figured out that his only route to victory was this Lands Edge kill where he hit his opponent with a handful of land. And he got his opponent to 14 or...

No, it must have been 16. He got him to 16 because he could draw a card, whatever. He figured out the right number of things he could do to defeat him. And the whole game was about sort of stalling and not making his opponent realize that his master plan

was to throw his hand of land at him. And he figured this out 10 turns early. I had no idea what was going on. And I mean, he sold the whole thing, the body language, and it just looked like he just had a horrible luck, and that, you know, he was going to lose any minute. And then just out of the blue, just, he wins. And that's one of the things that I always loved about Justice,

is that he thought so far ahead, that he really, you know, there are certain people that were just naturals at the game, and Justice was one of those people, that he really, I loved watching him play, that he was a master, and that it sends me that some of that drips away with time, that people don't, that, anyway. So, I'm now at work,

and I guess that wraps up our tale for today. Some tales from the Pro Tour. I'm sort of curious what people think of this. I want to do this every once in a while because I feel like there's such rich Pro Tour history that I don't want to get lost. I know not everybody is necessarily a fan of the Pro Tour, but I do believe a lot of our history,

a lot of the game's history lies in the Pro Tour. And a lot of the classic Tour, but I do believe a lot of our history, a lot of the game's history lies in the Pro Tour, and a lot of the classic moments, you know, like I said, not every sport has a riot. So, anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed today's chat, and I guess it's time to go, because it's time to make the magic.