Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Danny Goler: DMT, Lasers & the Hidden Structure of Reality: What Science Won't Touch (But He Did) - E205

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

What if reality isn't made of particles — what if it's made of code? My guest today is an independent researcher who took a laser, pointed it at the world, and recorded something that mainstream science has no clear explanation for. Danny Goler calls it the Code of Reality. Others have compared what he captured to the geometric patterns people report seeing on DMT. We'll get into the experiment itself, what he thinks it means, and why some of the most credentialed people in consciousness research are quietly paying attention. If you've ever felt like there's a layer to reality you're not supposed to see — you're going to want to stay for this one. Follow Danny Golar Website: https://dannygoler.com IG: @dannygoler YouTube: @dannygoler Substack: @dannygoler Follow Dr. JC Doornick and the Makes Sense Academy:► Makes Sense Substack - https://drjcdoornick.substack.com ► Instagram: / drjcdoornick ► Substack: / drjcdoornick ►Facebook:  / makessensepodcast ►YouTube:  / drjcdoornick MAKES SENSE PODCAST Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. This podcast explores topics that expand human consciousness and enhance performance. On the Makes Sense Podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is subjective and an acquired taste. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at begin to change. Welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. SUBSCRIBE/RATE/REVIEW & SHARE our new podcast. FOLLOW Podcast: You will find a "Follow" button in the top right. This will enable the podcast software to alert you when a new episode launches each week. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/makes-sense-with-dr-jc-doornick/id1730954168 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1WHfKWDDReMtrGFz4kkZs9?si=003780ca147c4aec Podcast Affiliates: Kwik Learning: Many people ask me where I get all these topics, which I've been covering for almost 15 years. I have learned to read nearly four times faster and retain information 10 times better with Kwik Learning. Learn how to learn and earn with Jim Kwik. Get his program at a special discount here: https://jimkwik.com/dragon OUR SPONSORS: Operly - Take Back Control of Your Work Day and Get Rid of All Your AI Apps - Welcome to the new world of Time Freedom and Unlimited Scaling and Success with Operly -  https://go.getoperly.ai/video?ref=jean-claude-claude-d-2a95 Blue Blinds Bakery - Handcrafted with all-natural ingredients - www.blueblindsbakery.com 00:00 - 01:02: Cold Open and Podcast Intro 01:02 - 02:25: Introducing Danny Goler 02:25 - 06:54: From a DMT Breakthrough to the Laser Idea 06:54 - 10:41: DMT vs 5-MeO-DMT: Comparing the Experiences 10:41 - 14:10: What the Code Actually Looks Like 14:10 - 17:01: Feeling Called and a Global Awakening 17:01 - 22:49: Is the Code a Message? Arrival and Objective Reality 22:49 - 25:33: The Moment Danny Learned Reality Is Rendered 25:33 - 32:31: Free Will, Agency, and Choosing Your Reality 32:31 - 34:18: Can You See the Code Without DMT? 34:18 - 38:16: The Pineal Gland Myth and DMT in the Body 38:16 - 40:43: Does Everything Happen for a Reason? 40:43 - 42:32: JC's Cancer Diagnosis: Six Days Later 42:32 - 47:19: Danny's Family, Loss, and Reframing Diagnosis as a Gift 47:19 - 51:11: Rapid Fire Questions 51:11 - 52:17: Where to Find Danny Goler 52:17 - ending: Outro  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

If you've ever wondered whether there's another layer to reality that's hiding just beneath the ordinary aspects of your perception, you're going to love this conversation. Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you, that your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleepwalking mode and label it as life and reality. Yeah, that ends here. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the

shock caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things, that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up, let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens. Makes sense. My guest today is an independent researcher who accidentally stumbled upon something that has ignited one of the most fascinating conversations in all of consciousness research. Using nothing more than a laser and an unconventional way of looking at light, Danny Gawler began documenting geometric structures that many say resemble the exact patterns reported by people. during DMT experiences. Welcome, Danny Goehler, to The Make Sense with Dr. JCP Podcast.

We're so excited to have you here, and our listeners are just going to love, love, love this information. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. So what I'd love to do is ask you a question that I don't think anybody's asked you. What does it like to be Danny Gawler these days? I don't know. Most of my attention actually goes to more mundane things like my family,

my daughter, a lot less exciting in the public sphere. Yeah, I mean, it's fun to be. able to go and talk about this fun stuff and get people excited about it and share our information. We also started doing these events where we take people through transformation. So it's very rewarding to see people, you know, actually waking up to a bigger reality and to play any role in that is super exciting. So yeah, I have to say that I feel very blessed. I have everybody healthy, have very loving family.

What can I say? I truly feel completely blessed. So tell us a little bit about yourself kind of before we dive. all in with the experiment. Like how did all of this begin? Like where did the curiosity begin? You know, what were you doing before you were known as this?

I kind of walked me through that exact moment up until you did this experiment, what led to it all. Yeah, so I basically had an experience on DMT that was even more convincing than it usually is. And then I basically couldn't no longer entertain the idea that it was all mind made,

so to speak. So I asked myself, what can we potentially ask and how we can potentially approach the problem from a more scientific perspective? And how do we actually discern whether or not it is in fact real? And that led me to a very long journey of years in which eventually I figured out that actually the fact that lasers are supposed to be doing something. And lo and behold, they actually did. That's the shortest version I can give you of that. What made you start thinking about the laser? I understand that components of the laser, but what made you pick it up and start going in that direction?

The story is very long. It stretches over years. And this is where the movie is literally going through every step of the way of how it unfolded. We definitely won't be able to cover it here. But the general gist of it is that I was thinking about it more in concrete terms. So people usually are, they're either too rigid in their thinking or they're too esoteric in their thinking. To me, it seemed like there's not a lot of middle ground. I now know that there are serious researchers that are asking these questions in a more serious flavor. But back then when I started, and that was before, you know, the whole DMTX project, by the way. So like that was, you know, I think 2017 or something, or 16. And I just felt like I really was not happy with any answer I saw

online of people. People are either saying, well, we knew all along. And, you know, even if people talking about chamanic traditions, I mean, they have a story about it. I don't know if they know what it is. And also from the scientific perspective, the mishap is very obvious. Like there's too much rigidity to even entertain these things as serious. So I kind of felt like, okay, well, if the answers are going to appear, I'm going to have to come up with them. And then basically the laser was a combination of thinking about it technically and then following a certain threat of what appeared to be kind of like hints. Full on tens of purposes, it's a case that makes it more difficult to communicate to scientists because if you tell them that part of your methodology was following, you know, invisible sense. sent that was sent to you from the beyond. People tend to disengage and I get it. That was a big part of

it. But also, I was thinking along technical lines. The idea was that I knew that light had to be involved somehow because we can see it. And if I can see it, that means the photons are carrying information from wherever they are to wherever I am. And then I realized, because light does have pretty unique qualities, even in mainstream physics. So I realized, well, maybe light has some kind of a key in there. And then I realized that actually quantum computers are already utilizing very similar properties. Quantum computers were already a thing. So like I think it was D-Wave, the first company that really made one that actually worked. And I realized, oh, okay, well, if they work, they're no longer theoretical. And what they do in order to work is something very interesting because they do controlled

coherence and then they allow it to decoher in a particular moment. And that means that the particle basically becomes part of your world line versus all the other ones. In that instance, when essentially you're doing is that you're utilizing lateral computation across the the world, so to speak, if you believe in the many worlds interpretation. And that's how you can run these enormous calculations with a very particular kind of calculation, not with general compute. But then I thought, okay, well, that's interesting. Maybe there's something there. And the second I started thinking about that, as in moving information through this process of decoherence and specifically light scattering, something started happening. Basically, I started getting these like hints that would

match some kind of a physics paper and it would kind of follow that. And eventually, after years of a lot of back and forth and trying to figure it out. And actually, my wife was instrumental. That day that we figured out the laser, she also started paying attention because one of the synchronicities happened to both of us, and then she all of a sudden had a different kind of seriousness with which she was listening to me about this. And then we started going through all these details that I've accumulated over the years together. And eventually, almost together, we landed on this idea that the laser is supposed to be doing something. And that's essentially how the laser idea was born. When I've done five MEOD, EMT, I kind of leave, you know, the planet. I don't, I don't recall ever having the ability to

like crouch down and look at a wall. How did you put those things together? Is that, is it a different type of a dose that people are taking that give them the capacity to kind of like consciously do something? My experiences have kind of like, JC has left the building, you know, and I come back and I have no idea how much time has passed and all of that stuff. How does the DMT component work in people like being able to walk over and look at some. Yeah, so the first thing to make clear is that DMT is not 5MEO DMT. So you can have both of them synthesized, which by the way is better. They're just completely different pharmacologically.

And they're completely different experientially. They should not even share a name. They're just two different universes of a thing. Okay. That being said, we now know that 5MEO actually works even better. And there, to your question, how do you stay aware and coherent? Well, that's experience. So like I can actually walk on 5MEO, like depending on the dose, of course, but for the most part, I'm fully functional.

With NN even more so because I had, I was probably one of the more experienced people with it. Like I've done it so many times. It's, you know, it's impossible to count. And it's exactly because I was so experienced with it that I knew what was in the card, so to speak. So then when I started having these extra experiences, I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's weird. That's not what's supposed to be happening. And then I realized that there's something bigger. The answer to the question is twofold.

you can also do it with 5MEO and you would even see the code better. But yes, 5MEO is a lot harder to stay upright with for sure. It's a very big experience. It's probably the biggest experience you can have on the side of the aisle, I would say. With DMT, a lot of people can totally function on it. I mean, I don't recommend this, but I've spent a year on it. I was basically doing everything on it, driving, going to the gym, doing everything. So it's a matter of experience, I think.

Different people are different. If you're one of these people that your margin from smoking it to then going to hyperspace is this thin, you won't be able to do the laser experiment. It's just not going to work. And you're going to be just uncomfortable and you're just constantly going to kind of like, your eyes are going to like roll over and you're going to go. But if a lot of people, their margin of staying in the space, but still being fully coherent is actually pretty wide and they can easily do the experiment. So the reason that DMT captures so many people's imaginations is it's super. content fill. 5MO is not. So 5MO is kind of like a dissolution. First of all, very cerebral. So like it's not so much like somatic like 5MEO. Like you can experience things in the body, but it's not

really mostly about that. It's just that the whole world changes to something completely different. Sure. And it feels more real than this, but not in the same way the 5MEO does. So where 5MEO feels more, I guess, what you would call properly spiritual. DMT for the most part doesn't feel spiritual. It feels more robotic. Like it feels like super advanced technology, almost like nuts and bolts. Like it just feels like transformers, right? Like a super advanced civilization of transformers like 3 million years in the future.

It doesn't feel like you're on the way to meet God. It feels more like, oh, you're about to be exposed to some kind of an enormous secret. I got it, you know, this whole time. And the reason that is so astounding for people is because they had no idea their brain can do this. It's very jarring. Even the visual content itself, it's very weird and very realistically salient for people. And that's different than just kind of like, I guess even though the five of meers a very big and just expansive experience, you kind of expect that if you're doing something called the God molecule. Right.

I think it's the weirdness of an end that really hits people hard because they did not expect that their brain can actually produce something like that. So explain to us exactly what it is that you actually see or what all these thousands of people see when they're taking part in this experiment. Yeah. So basically, what I discovered is that when you do this, when you just project the affected light on the surface, specifically a laser, and then you happen to be on DMT, you see what appears to be some kind of a running code or some symbology and it's there in a very realistic manner

it's not just kind of you know transient like a lot of hallucinations are it has this rigidity solidification in space special coordinates that don't change in relationship to what you do so they change but not in relationship to what you do so you can move your head it won't move with you you will be moving in relationship to it, like with a real object. If you move the light itself, it's now moving with the light. So it's not in the projection. The light is moving across it. It has all the signs of being there, so to speak.

And that quality is unique because you don't usually see that. Even with hallucinations, you kind of have this, even if they're very realistic, they are kind of transient in nature. If you look away, they can change. If you close your eyes or, you know, or kind of reset your attention, they can change. But the code doesn't do that. It's just there exactly how it is, doing its own thing. And the weirdest part is that it seems to be the same across individuals.

Now, this claim is the contentious one, because the next question scientifically is, how do you know? How do you know people are actually seeing the same thing? while we're testing for that. So we found some clever ways to test for that and we're doing that currently. What is it that when you first noticed it, did you know what it was or did you make an assumption or did you kind of try to first talk yourself

out of what you thought it was? What was that like the first time you saw it or did that just make you say, I knew it, I knew it, or like, what the fuck is that? Well, we still have no idea what it is. I mean, we call it the code of reality, were just because we had to call it something. We don't have the first clue what we're looking at.

I can say that I have my convictions because my interactions with them, whomever they are, but that already happened before the laser. So by the time the laser came, I was already exposed to a lot of information that made sense of all of it in terms of like what's actually happening here. But obviously substantiating this and communicating this to others is a whole other story and it needs to come with the understanding that there's gradation to people, understanding and comfort levels and you know you don't just expect everybody to just come along there needs to be a gestation period essentially that's what's happening so it's a global conversation

about what in fact is going on and if you ask me point blank what i think it is and what's happening i can tell you my my ideas but scientifically we can't which is the thing that matters for most of society because that's how we communicate to each other in consensus reality there's a lot of work to be done still don't claim to really know what the the actually nature of it, one thing that is super clear to me is that it was left there to be found because it didn't have to be discernible. And I know in real time, when we're looking at it, they're looking at us. They're like, they're waiting for us. They're like, okay, tell me what you understand, basically. Do you at times feel, sometimes feel like you were called to be the guy that discovered this?

I think that I allowed myself to be more neutral around it, surprisingly enough, because it sounds like I'm putting this explosive claim on the table. But the reality was that it took me a very long time to get used to accepting what I'm saying. Instead, I just kind of allowed it to keep informing, informing, informing, and eventually they almost put their foot down. They're like, well, what else do you want us to show you? Like, this is happening. This is for real.

So then I had to accept it, basically. I do think that whatever is happening is not just happening through the laser. It's happening through many different ways. And I'm encountering a lot of people that are going through awakenings, that are are experiencing more than what mainstream science would like to admit is possible. So I'm definitely not the only one that is experiencing special occurrence, right? I just kind of, I guess, figured something out that can actually share with others. But I'm telling you, in the last year or two, even, I met so many people to different

degrees that are going through full-on, like, you know, Kundalini openings and like, and before that, I wasn't really as open to the idea that those. were real things. I thought it was just kind of like tricks of the mind. But now I was exposed to enough information to know that, no, no, like there's something big is happening here. So to your question about like, why me, I don't think it's just me. I think a lot of people experiencing is just that they're experiencing in different ways. And I think everybody can experience if they open themselves up. The way that I understand it, so if you want to talk about what I think is the real disclosure or how it really happens, it doesn't happen by somebody coming to a podium and telling you

something. It happens by each individual coming to their realizations, slowly becoming more comfortable with accepting certain things, and then they can experience more directly. It's almost like you leave the tools on the table for the monkey. And if the monkey can do something with the tools, by definition, that means the monkey understood. But if the monkey just kind of plays and bangs them on the table, it's like, well, okay, well, we'll try next time. And that's how I think really the disclosure basically happen. So I don't think it's just me, but our job as the people who are going through these is to try and not only hold coherence across each other's presence and like, okay, what do you see, what do I see and be sensitive to the different kinds of ways in which people experiencing these

things, but also help communicate to people who are not yet seeing. There's this tendency, which is a very human thing. Evangelizing is not just in Christianity. The second that people find something, they automatically kind of just demand everybody already know this. You know, it's kind of like, you just knew this yesterday. So like, have a little bit more patience with people to come to these understandings. So all of these things are packed into this, I guess, occurrence. I don't know. I think it's just a global awakening, honestly. That's the simplest way of describing it. Yeah. It makes me wonder, and I'd love to know your thoughts on this, because the way that you are bringing it to us is this code of reality thing that you, that you've created. And you also,

refer to this other force as they. I've heard you say that several times. What I'm curious to know, and my assumption is that this is just the surface as something much, much, much bigger, but it's showing up however anybody's having an awakening. And somebody listening right now, yes, that awakening that you're having is just like what Danny is talking about in my persuasion right now. But it's just it was there for you to interpret something bigger. So is that kind of what you feel it is that you suck? From what I understand, it's repeatable and everybody claims to see the same thing, but it's like there's millions of things.

There's no way of documenting it or deciphering it yet. No, we found a way to do that, yeah. Oh, you have. Oh, you have. You heard about that. Okay, wow. So this is. It's going to take a few months, but we definitely found a way to actually tell you

exactly if people are in fact looking at the same thing or not. Well, that, but what I'm saying is like the movie arrival and deciphering what the message is and coding the language or whatever. I'm wondering if that's not even what it's there for. I'm wondering if it's there to just say there's more. Yeah, but then I mean, obviously, it will exist across the levels. The fact that they exist more then informs you that there's something more needs to be understood. So then it goes to the first part of your question, which is appropriate. But I do think that it's premature. In order to decipher something, you need to know what it's for. You actually can't decipher something that you don't know what it's for. That's

impossible. You're running into infinite directions. People think that's possible. They don't realize that they already know what it's for. So, for example, they say, yeah, but people decode ancient languages. They're never spoken. Exactly. They already know what it's for. They know it's a human language. They know a lot about it. There's Zipslaw. There's all kinds of things. There's only so many ways in which humans make languages. There's a lot of information in that, right? If you're decoding during a war, somebody like doing Second World War, right, somebody was trying to decode whatever the Germans were saying, well, we know there's a scrambled message there and we know what it's about probably, like in general. So we're trying

to kind of decipher it, right? But that's a lot of information. We don't have that information. We don't know what we're looking at. So I think before that, we need to see if we can perturb it, repeat it across individuals, repeat it across conditions, see if there's any changes across individuals that repeat themselves. Then you're going to start, be able to ask the question, questions about, hey, if I perturbed the code this way, did the language change around it? Because that will assign meaning to it. Because symbols by themselves don't mean anything. The alphabet doesn't mean anything. The way it means anything is that we create the syntax. We create the way it connects together and what that means. We associate meaning with words, right?

That's the important part in this question. But yeah, Arrival is one of my favorite films. I think it's Jerry Wrenner is one of his better works. And just the amount of just sheer raw brain power that went into thinking about this. You know, Stephen Wolfram helped him this idea of the cryptography and stuff that's really, really cool. This is the one movie that I refuse to give people any

spoilers because it's so great, so everybody should watch it if they haven't. Yeah, I do think that eventually will get to something like that, but I, and if I misunderstood your question, correct me, but if the question was, do I think that there's some merit to the idea that maybe this was just shown to me that way

to do, no, I don't think so. So like there's there's things that are subjective and there's things that are objective. And yes, objectivity is not a dirty word. It's a real thing. It's not all up for grabs. Even if you have your own point of perception, there's still a thing there, right? Even if it's just mine, even if it's all idealism and it's just mine, whatever that is is there. It has a reality to it, right?

So I don't subscribe to this whole idea that like we can never say anything about, you know, like where you have your perception, I have my perception. I don't subscribe to this idea. I think it's, you know, it just doesn't hold water. So I think of what we found is of an objective nature. But obviously it has components that correspond to different points of perception, and that needs to be taken into account. But just like with anything, consensus reality is contrived of many subjective points,

and we take all of it into account. This is how this person saw it. This is how this person saw it. But what does that tell us about the thing itself? That's the question we're asking ourselves. Yeah. I mean, I guess when I ask questions like that, I'm probably in unconsciously sharing what I hope things are. I mean, you know, because I always say like I'm of the persuasion that, and I guess if I say it in that context, like I'd like to think that whatever, I mean, first of all, there's no, just like in the movie arrival, we would have to step out of the conventional way we would decipher something to be able to understand something of this magnitude. We probably don't currently understand how to do that.

But what I'm saying is that if you look at what you have found and you look at all these other awakenings that people are having, something wonderful is happening, I'm of the persuasion that this higher intelligence or whatever it is that is trying to show us something is doing so in the fashion that the traditional movie would say like the aliens will show up in a way that we can handle first and a way that, you know, we're ready to see. So I guess what I was looking at is for whatever reason, this higher intelligence guided you and they knew that you were the guy that were ready to see it that way, right, without freaking out and running and discounting it and stuff like that. So maybe in that sense, we could say that it was a calling of sorts. Yeah, there's definitely

something that happened when they showed me that this is simulated that I didn't expect because I thought, and for the most part, I am. I didn't really have to work on it. It's just how my psychology is. Usually when big things happen, I'm very quick to just accept them. It's like, That's what it is now. Let's move on. It's actually with the smaller things that is the hardest for me. You get the ketchup stain on your shirt and you're like, oh, you just can't let it go.

But the bigger things are actually relatively easy for me. He's like, right? Well, I guess it is what it is, right? I'm really good in emergencies, for example, because of that. Just, okay, let's just handle it. But so I didn't really expect that to rattle me that much. But when they didn't hint at, which they did for a while, but showed me, basically they showed me directly,

which is, by the way, where my conviction comes from, that this is in fact computationally simulated or rendered. It's not simulated at this point. It's clear to me that we have to change the term because it's not fake. It's not, it's reality. It's just computationally rendered. It did kind of knock the air out of me. Like it, there was like a, oh my, oh, like it was, it's just gutting feeling because

it felt like I did feel kind of like empty and, oh, it's like all for nothing, you know, kind of thing. It wasn't so much the fear of not being on the, on top of the, food chain, it was more like, oh, like we're insignificant to an end's degree, right? But then I realized actually that's not true. It's just that we're part of a much larger picture. And what we do does matter. Yeah. It's just that it's part of something that is much greater than ourselves. But then again, I realized, wait, but we always considered this already. I guess it just took a different flavor than what I thought it would be. And maybe encountering it directly is different

than just thinking that maybe, or kind of being comfortable with the idea versus really knowing. Those are two different things. And then I realized that it's basically a similar feeling. I always describe it as being a much more, a much bigger version of the same feeling you have when you discover your parents don't know everything. It is a bit deflating, right? You kind of like, oh, yeah, my parents know everything when you're a kid. And then you're like, wait, I think I know more than them in this regard. And then there's like a whoa.

But what that is, the birth of responsibility. It's like you realize you're an actual player, like you're an actual participant in this and not just somebody who's just absorbing, which is essentially the next level of that. It's like, oh, we're not just in our space. We have a say in things. We just don't know how yet. And we haven't grown into that position.

But essentially, we are a real participator. So, yeah, I would say that you're not wrong about the impact of that kind of thing. And I think for a long time, the data study me and like figure out if they should, and shouldn't. It was very impactful. Yeah, it was a big deal. Yeah, it's so fascinating because I'd love to know what your take is on free will because no matter, well, but no matter how big something is exposed to me. And, you know, I would never think that they would show me something that was just like, by the way, you're nothing, you're irrelevant. That's why I'm showing you this. I would assume, and once again, hope that they're showing me like, hey, there's more. And you're part of that.

awakening to Moore. But what are your thoughts on the fact that someone can look at this and see it inequivocally? Remember, we have this program that has cognitive bias loaded into it. And we can choose to decide what it is and what it isn't. This kind of is where that question lies is like, do you believe that human beings have that ability and where we have to get to a place where we're open and curious to awakening before something like this can be accepted because of this whole free will concept. Do you understand what I'm saying? I don't necessarily see the connection to the free will part. Can you can you? Well, free will meaning like I can do whatever I want to. I can choose to. I mean, you could somebody can wake up today and decide it's a good day or a bad

day. You know, somebody could decide they can choose on anything. Now, we live in a world that seems to be choosing a negative side of things primarily. And then we've got people that may wake up, no, today's going to be a great day. And, you know, I have that ability to do that, rather than thinking that the day happens and we are either fucked or not, you know, so when I see free will, I'm saying human beings, I guess I'm trying to make a campaign for the fact that human beings do play an important role in what's happening. Human beings, you know, my persuasion is that human beings have the ability to call it like they see it, regardless of the facts. To a degree, a train will still run you over, right? So, and that's important. I think people forget this. People very often say it's all consensus. Not so sure. Are you saying this is a train? Well, walk through the wall. You can't, right? So, like, clearly there's, there's things that it doesn't matter what you want or think. It won't happen. There's the laws of physics are real. I love this direction, but it's very important to uncouple a few terms.

So, like, I would swap pre-will in this case with agency. Because free will is basically the deepest question possible. And I don't think you can possibly describe a world in which free will is even a coherent concept. Like, free will is not really what is being pointed to can't exist. Like, that's not a thing that can exist. The only thing that you can say that has that freedom of the will is the totality of existence. Agents within existence are always some result of the moments that came prior.

Like, it's not like you don't wake up in the morning and do what you want. You have a story about why you agree with what is happening. That's what you call what you want. But it's not really that you were just decided freely. It was decided for you. It depends on so many different variables. we can show this. Like, you know, people controlled to like an enormous degree with just temperature.

You know, that famous experiment with the cup, right? When you primed them with cold water or hot water, they have completely negative or positive things to say about the people they spend some time with just because of the temperature of the water they were holding. And they're not aware of this. They say, if you asked them, did you, like, were you cajoled to make this decision and say, of course not. That's my genuine opinion about this person.

But literally, we can show reliably, they would have positive emotions about. about the person, if they're holding a hot cup with something, and negative emotions about a person. If they hold like ice water, that's how easily manipulated we are. But we do have what I would call agency, which is the perception that, which is what you're pointing to, which is that we can frame things a certain way to a degree, right? What's interesting to me is the line where it departs from where your conviction dictates anything, which is kind of like where the wall is, right, which is physics. So now, I'm very comfortable with the idea that ultimately at bottom, and in fact, that's the position that I hold, which is at bottom, it's all mind.

It's all just, by the way, an idealism for anybody who's not familiar, mind does not mean cerebral. It just means mental. It just means experience, right? So like your emotions, everything is included in that. Anything is possible to be experienced, right? So in idealism, basically mind or the mental stuff is actually what everything is made out of. It's actually the fundamental substrate of reality, consciousness is.

But even there, there's still some rules by what. which consciousness aggregates, changes. Donald Hoffman's work is very much along those lines. How do we describe consciousness as a fundamental thing and how it collect itself into a perception of space, time, and everything else? Well, but technical standpoint. So to me, with the most interesting part is where does it break down? Like, where is our personal agency? Where's the bubble of influence? I do agree that the bubble of influence of our personal consciousnesses is way wider than what current modern science is aware of or would like to admit. So we do have these extra abilities, kind of pool events into our lives.

I totally believe that. I've experienced this myself. But not to an infinite degree. I think there's just some limitations that are for all intents and purposes. You can just call them laws of physics. It's just the physics of cognition. That's what we call what we do cognitive physics because of exactly that. So to me, these questions are always interesting around the margins, like where it

actually breaks down. But in general about your statement that people can actually make a difference and they decide kind of their internal imprint when they wake up in the morning to see things in a favorable light versus seeing in a negative light. I'm very comfortable saying yes, we can have an experience in which we do more of the former versus the latter. And I do agree with you that yes, it absolutely changes the trajectory of things. In fact, for us, it will be the make it or break it point, basically. It's like if we are the kind of being that wants to evolve, toward something beautiful that is much more considerate of other things than just ourselves. Or do we evolve or devolve into something that is very cancerous, which only cares about

itself? Those are quote unquote choices that we can absolutely make. And I would actually say, this is one of my favorite hobby horses currently, because I think it's really important. Just see what happens if you consciously follow more positive content online. It exists. Like I consciously Google a search on Instagram and things like this. There's a few of these accounts, but like positive news from around the world that nobody will tell you about, right? Like real things that happen and they're amazing, right? Somebody saw, did you know that I think it's Japan?

They basically cured Down syndrome. What Sinclair is doing now with the reverse aging. There's so many incredible things. Somebody freed the dolphins or made using dogs for experiments illegal. There's all these like positive things happening. We can choose to look at that more. Or we can choose to look at, you know, more negative things and it will influence our state and they're obviously the state of the people around us. So it cascades. And we have that choice. I fully agree with you on that.

I love that. And I'm on the same team. So one of the things that I've noticed, because I've done my 5M E or DMT and I've done lots of plant medicine. And, you know, I've always wondered, like I said, at the beginning that when I'm not in the experience, like I mean, I tell a story of, you know, one time I was. in the Peru in the jungle of Amazon. And I was having this long conversation with one of the shamans. You know, he was sitting on my mattress. And I was having this because I wasn't feeling the medicine. So he came and sat with me and talked to me or about an hour until I realized that he doesn't speak English. And he's only a full tall.

And then he just disappeared. Right. So like I've had an experience and I was 100% sure it was real. And then it went away. So let's just call that like that other place that, You understand. I've always wondered if that experience in that other place only existed when I was engaged in rendering it, kind of like a video game, or whether I could see it or not if it still existed. So I would be like, I wonder what's happening in this space right here that I can't see.

So my question to you is this. As somebody that's done DMT as many times as you, have you ever been able to see the code while not on DMT just because it's still in you or you had some sort of a moment or is it only accessible with DMT? For me, only with DMT or if I'm really, really tired, which actually does a similar thing to DMT in some regard. It relaxes some of the machinery. Yeah. That's actually a data point.

That's interesting. And I heard you say before, and my friend Joe Dispense is probably not going to like this, but I heard you say before you were talking about some sort of study. where they removed the pineal gland in rats and they still had production of DMT. Dr. John Dean, 2019, very simple. And this is where I kind of have to maybe preface this by saying, I've never met Dr. Joe Dispensa. I never been to one of his things.

But all I hear, and this is important to say, I've never heard one person coming back from his thing and not completely being blown away. So like, I am certain he's doing amazing work. That has nothing to do with anything else. I'm about to say next. It's just that the whole Pineal gland thing, we knew for a long time, that's not true. In fact, that was a rumor that somebody thought in the 1800s.

So since then we knew it's not true. It just kind of persisted throughout the Pineal gland. It's simply not, it cannot produce these kind of amounts. We know what it's for. It's not doing that. But I also don't understand what's the hang up there. Like, our body does make it. Why does it have to be the Pineal Glen?

Because people, this is my point, that if you make very strong claims, that you have really no way of truly knowing, like the Pineal gland is the thing that connected to that. It's that idea persisted over a long time. So if you have a lot invested in saying that, you're going to look like you didn't know what you were talking about if you're now going to admit.

So don't say that. Start with not saying things you don't know. That's exactly why we shouldn't do it, right? We know our lungs make it. We know portions of the brain synthesize it, not the Pinellivan. and we know that I think the liver as well. But why is that less magical?

Like the fact that your body is making it is already amazing, right? But that's my point. Like, for example, I'm watching Bashar, another great example. Also the thing with the Pioneer, it's like, what I appreciate about Daryl, the guy who's channeling him, right, is that when he was asked point blank about whether he thinks Bashar is real, I saw this in an interview and I immediately gained so much respect for him. He said, I don't know. okay, I respect that.

He said, what I do know is that when we follow people for decades after they do my retreats, we clearly see an improvement in their state of being. I was like, I love it. That's all that. Great. Great. That's all that matters. But this is why, like, marrying yourself to propositions of that kind that we really have.

What is it for? It only muddies the water. You know what I mean? This is why I'm very careful of what I say that I know with a certain degree of certainty. and why I think this, but I would never make a claim that I don't have direct observation of. And this is just one of these unfortunate things

that it's just a meme. And there's really no need for that meme. It's like it's the fact that our body makes it, why are other parts of the brain are demoted to be less important than the pineal van? You know, it's like it's amazing. Our body makes it. As far as we know,

DMT is doing something really unique in the body and in a living system. And it's all the things that we're saying that it might be. It's just we don't need to say, say that one thing. By the way, in the same study with Dr. John Dean, the thing that was the most jarring wasn't the pineal gland thing because that was just, he just did this to verify what we already knew. What was interesting is that he discovered, so what he discovered is not

DMT directly, but I forget, but NN something, I forget the acronym, but it's the precursor to DMT, which is good enough. And he discovered that there's comparable amounts of it to dopamine and serotonin. That's the substantial finding because we used to think that there's just like trace amounts during waking hours.

He discovered a no. We have substantial amounts of DMT in the system, right? Well, not we, the rats, right? But if we haven't done it on humans yet, but they're close enough

and that would be interesting to test, obviously. But yeah, that was the interesting finding. That means that whatever DMT is doing in the system is buffering something very important.

The brain doesn't just produce such large amounts of neuromodulators for no reason at all. So I think the everything, the magical stuff we want to postulate about the MT stands, we just don't need to connect necessarily the opinion gland, that's all. Do you think everything happens for a reason? From the perspective of the totality of things, yes, which is not a perspective that anyone can hold.

So I would always say, you know, the higher self can't possibly be a self. So when people talk about this stuff, I think there is something that is being kind of smuggled in. which is that they think that what persists beyond this is them, which is not the case. You will die. You know what I mean? Like that's actually will happen still. There's experience keep going, but that's not you.

But that's really, that was the Buddhists point the whole time, which is that real freedom comes from dying before you die. So just allowing that to just leave you as an important point. We grew up being taught that growth takes place out of the comfort zone. And I've been replacing that by saying it takes place out of. of the comfort known. I love to not know. I love to revel in uncertainty. I love that too. The weird and the unknown is my favorite place to be. When people ask me, well, are you sure about that? I say absolutely not. And I hear you keep saying that, you know, all the time. And that's one of the things that I said I like about

you is you're not out here trying to prove anything to anybody. You're just sharing something that you saw and they just happen to see it too. I find that fascinating. Just back to one of these questions that's just, I'm just curious to know where you stand on this. You can't, you know, this is a tough one. But is this code that you see when you go through this experiment and you do DMT? What are your thoughts about like when you're not on DMT and you're not experiencing it? Is it still running? Yeah, yeah.

Or is it only something that's happening when you're experiencing it? No, I think it's always there. So there's a few new data points that suggest that there is some combination of our consciousness and it kind of collaborating to make a thing happen. we'll find out. But no, I think something that is some kind of a fundamental operation. Yeah, I do think it's just there. So as somebody that, you know, I'm a very, very deep thinker and I just look me. I mean, this, I don't know if you noticed my hat.

It says, hmm, which stands for haven't made up my mind about anything. Beautiful. The about anything is silent. Yeah. Yeah, it's about anything. Yeah. Well, I mean, that frustrates the hell out about people because people want me to know. people demand certainty. But anytime something happens, including my experiences with plant medicine,

I'm just very open and curious to finding out. You can see by nature of my questions. But I just caught off the press, because we're going to talk a little bit about simulation and, you know, the meaning of all of this stuff. Six days ago, this is before, you know, like, I mean, this is after you and I ever scheduled this. Six days ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. Six days, right now you're like, whoa, what the fuck? I don't know this was going to happen. So six days ago, and you can feel the visceral reaction. I'll tell you in a moment why my response, not just obviously to the heavy news, but I'll

sure. We're going to probably become better friends now. But six days ago, I received this diagnosis. And naturally, my human visceral reaction was, oh, my God, I'm going to die in 10 minutes and all of that stuff. But I find myself in this place. And I want to know what your thoughts are in this because I very much respect your perspective, because it's open. But I find myself feeling lucky because just like DMT, my mind is wide open to things that I know I wouldn't be open to had it not happen.

So it's almost like a vehicle for me. And I have to be careful who I say that to because people get really angry at me if they're really sucking their thumbs about their situations. but I find myself armed and equipped with a new level of perception, not too dissimilar. So another awakening of sorts. I'd love to know where you think that all fits in. And if you have some sort of crazy correlation to what I said, go for it. Well, thank you for sharing. And again, you know, it is heavy news. But I'm so happy to hear that you take it with that beautiful stride.

Yeah, absolutely. I do think it opens a whole new window of emphasis. And therefore, if you're open to it, your mind will reformulate to a higher octave. You will start perceiving more than what it, from what is possible to receive. The reason I reacted that way is because this year, it was kind of crazy. I came back from an event. And the same day, I got the news. My dad called me and he said that he didn't tell me because he didn't want me to get upset

because we just had a daughter. He was diagnosed with cancer. Do you mention me in the time? Yeah, it was upper digestive tract. Mine's kidding me. I thought, I just wanted to know if we were. going that far. No, no, no, no. And then at this same day, my partner's wife got diagnosed. And I got the news that I did like in the same event. They had this truck that kind of checked for like this general, what is it?

Pathologies or PA, some, forget what it's called. But anyways, it was elevated for my age and I was like, oh, here we go. Like interesting. Like all at the same day, right? Yeah. What's interesting, I also, in the same event, look how, look how to, universe works, right? In the same event, I met this woman, but in the name of Rebecca, that specifically a good friend made a note of introducing us. It was kind of strange because she comes from a completely different feel that it doesn't really have a lot to do with what I do, but somehow he was like really, really like emphasized like, that we shake our hands, like everything. What this woman does literally devoted her life to cure cancer. And sure enough, she has this thing that's been testing since 2013 that basically promises to basically cure

cancer. Like it basically stops almost all cancer types in their track and they're essentially suppress it from the, so it doesn't fight it like chem or anything. It's just a combination of particular medications that they figure out that together, they suffocate the tumors from the mitochondrial level and it rejuvenates the immune system. So now my dad was in Russia, this way lived his all life and he was going under like a treatment, you know, which is like their own system and all that. So obviously told them about it. Try to kind of stuff. element the idea, but it was still, it's only now stepped into going through FDA approval and everything, but, you know, it was available. So I was like, well, you know, you should do it. And he obviously,

they were too scared because it's, you know, also. And but my partner's wife did take the route. And sure enough, my dad passed away and she didn't. And, and I later discovered after doing a bunch of tests, I'm actually fine. But it was like a real moment of like, I am certain. I'm not pretending that it's the same. I'm certain that getting the news that it is that is different than thinking that maybe that it's very different. However, I did experience kind of like this kind of like entry point of like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the reality of it is that, again, I'm not pretending to know how I would react if I actually got the news, right? I would like to think that I would take it like in good in good spirit and like it is what it is. I just obviously want to be

hear for my wife or my daughter as long as I can. But it is absolutely, I'm in so much agreement with you that if you're willing to open your channels for the, this is all for, like you're saying, for a reason, you will see that there's actual gifts in there. More gifts than harm. Yeah. If you're willing to take it that way. And usually also, I do believe this very strongly, that the survival rate actually goes up like orders of magnitude if you actually take it that way. Well, what's interesting about it just so I can share with you and then we'll go into my rapid fire questions. For me, it's not very different than everything we've been talking about.

You know, because like whether you're taking the, doing this experiment with DMT and the laser or you're having some sort of an awakening elsewhere, there's stuff happening all the time. And it's our perception of it and our experiencing of it. And we live in a society that has these labels. Like I know a lot of people and everybody and their mother is saying, oh my God, this is so terrible. I'm so sorry. And I'm like, who told you that it was terrible?

Like what if we lived in an alternate reality where you find out, kind of like a Down syndrome kid that, you know, sees everything and is happy? You know, what if this is the greatest gift that ever was? So I'm playing in that sandbox right now and I'm hoping to change the minds. Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, I'm sure you can understand, right? Because what people see of it is usually what they perceive as terrible because people do go through like, you know, especially with the way that we deal with it. But yeah, I think that you can be an incredible example of how to go through it, very different.

Therefore, I think maybe this is, you know, my thing. Fascinating, though. Fascinating to experience this, you know, in real time. So I'm going to ask you some questions and you can do your best to answer them in short form. I don't know if you ever had the rapid fire questions. I have. I'm terrible with the, I'm going to do my best. I like the challenge, but.

Okay, good. So is the universe conscious? Yes. A universe is consciousness. Can consciousness survive death? It is everything. So, of course, death is just an occurrence inside of conscious, larger consciousness. So death is not a requirement for consciousness.

I mean, life. No, consciousness is literally eternal. It's everything. There's nothing that isn't it. But if you die, you can't tap into it anymore. But that's agency. That's not consciousness. Yeah.

Agents have consciousness, but consciousness is the thing out of which everything is made, including the laws of physics and everything else. That's my idealistic position. Will mainstream science eventually embrace consciousness research? If we want to become futuristic civilization, yes. It will determine, in my position is that it will actually be the thing. They will determine whether we proceed in, to playing greater games or not,

if we're willing to understand that part. Is humanity moving towards awakening or distraction? Awakening. We already made it. We just need to become aware of it. AI doesn't even have a chance, right? We're going to awaken. No, AI is part of it.

AI is actually a reflection of what we are in our capabilities. We just need to learn how to fly. We think of it in old terms, but it is all a reflection of us. So basically, if you use it correctly, it will be your wings. That is the thing that allows you to be the next level. But if you ask it to just answer all your emails, then you are the monkey banging the tools on the table.

You didn't understand the assignment. What is the biggest misconception people have about your work? Well, surprisingly, that it's about the laser, or I think the bigger misconception is that it's about psychedelics. My work is along the lines of understanding the world. are just one tool that happens to allow us to do a thing right now with the laser. But my interest is in understanding the world and utilizing it from making everything better for the greater good of all.

My work, the way that I view it, is Elon builds the rockets. I build conceptual frameworks to help us get there. Like not just in terms of the physicality of it, but what is required, what kind of being we should be in order to be worthy of playing in that arena. I would have you met Elon Musk? Not yet. I'm sure it'll happen at some point. Oh, I'm sure.

I can see it. And I would assume that after he hears everything you do, his answer will be like, sure, that makes sense. Why not? Why not? Let's show you on the laser. That would be cool. We should talk more.

All right, last question. What's one discovery that you've made that you still can't explain? Can't explain? Well, I mean, the laser, but that would be it. Absolutely. Yeah, I still can't explain it. I mean, we're working on it. Yeah, look, look at that. I did better at the rapid fire question. You did amazing. And, you know, just from my own standpoint, as the guy that started off the show telling you what I like about you, what's really cool if people allow themselves to like have a conversation with a human being and not just, you know, we live in a world where we're just so trapped in efficiency. And we just don't take a lot of time to do. do like actually any investigative work. We just make decisions so fast. But in getting to speak to you, and this is even beyond watching previous interviews you've been in, you know, you're the kind of guy

that I would probably like to just hang out and get a bite to eat and not talk about any of this. You know what I mean? Like what pleasure. Talk about our kids and things like that, you know, as well. So yeah, wonderful, wonderful to have you on the show. And what are you excited about and working on like what is it that you would like all these people that are listening to go check out if anything or just follow you or do you have something? Yeah no I would love a few more people follow or my YouTube channel which is dango thoughts three words D-A-N-G-O thoughts all my links can be found on danny goller.com retreats is something that I highly recommend people check out because we're very proud of what we've created you know where do we take this in nosara costa Rica people can

just sign up for a call with me and we can talk about it. I can give them information. It's C-O-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-R-M. And our nonprofit website where all the updates on everything we do is code of reality. Awesome. And we'll put all those things in the description. Yeah, I host plant medicine retreats now as well, but like of a different source, you know, so there's a handful of people that I would love to go to Costa Rica through the Danny experience. So there's wonderful. It'll be an honor to have you. Yeah. Thank you so much. This was, this was really

lovely. Hi, this is Danny Goeler and this podcast makes sense. That's it for today. To support the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, be sure to subscribe, like, and share as well as follow the Make Sense substack for free daily quotes,

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