Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Ex-Scientologist Reveals What Really Happens Inside the Sea Org (Tom Cruise, John Travolta & More) - Anne Hill - E197

Episode Date: August 18, 2026

My guest today spent two decades inside Scientology — fourteen of those years inside the Sea Organization, the most demanding, most secretive inner circle the church has. She interviewed John Travolta. She watched up close how power moved around Tom Cruise. And then one day, she walked away from all of it, with nothing, and had to figure out how to become a person again. Today she's turned that story into a TikTok series that's exploded — not just with ex-Scientologists, but with anyone who's ever had to leave a system that told them who to be. We're going to talk about what it's actually like inside the Sea Org, the moment she knew she had to leave, and what nobody tells you about starting over. Anne Gollert Hill, welcome.     Follow ANNE HILL - - IG - @annehillwrite - Substack - https://substack.com/@annegollerthill     Follow Dr. JC Doornick and the Makes Sense Academy:► Makes Sense Substack - https://drjcdoornick.substack.com ► Instagram: / drjcdoornick ► Substack: / drjcdoornick ►Facebook:  / makessensepodcast ►YouTube:  / drjcdoornick     MAKES SENSE PODCAST Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. This podcast explores topics that expand human consciousness and enhance performance. On the Makes Sense Podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is subjective and an acquired taste. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at begin to change. Welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast.   SUBSCRIBE/RATE/REVIEW & SHARE our new podcast. FOLLOW Podcast: You will find a "Follow" button in the top right. This will enable the podcast software to alert you when a new episode launches each week. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/makes-sense-with-dr-jc-doornick/id1730954168 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1WHfKWDDReMtrGFz4kkZs9?si=003780ca147c4aec   Podcast Affiliates: Kwik Learning: Many people ask me where I get all these topics, which I've been covering for almost 15 years. I have learned to read nearly four times faster and retain information 10 times better with Kwik Learning. Learn how to learn and earn with Jim Kwik. Get his program at a special discount here: https://jimkwik.com/dragon OUR SPONSORS: Operly - Take Back Control of Your Work Day and Get Rid of All Your AI Apps - Welcome to the new world of Time Freedom and Unlimited Scaling and Success with Operly -  https://go.getoperly.ai/video?ref=jean-claude-claude-d-2a95 Blue Blinds Bakery - Handcrafted with all-natural ingredients - www.blueblindsbakery.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is what that feels like. I had forgotten what it felt like to be loved and appreciated because I hadn't been for so long. Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you, that your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleepwalking mode and label it as life and reality. Yeah. That ends here. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast.

This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shock caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things, that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up. Let's rise up. And let's make sense of why and how shift happens. I want to welcome you officially to the Make Sense. Thank you. Should we refer you as Anne Hill or Ann Gullert Hill?

Either one's fine. Anne Gollard Hill is on the book. It's on all of my socials too, but it doesn't matter. Anne Hill's fine. Well, then let's stay with that. So my first question that I always ask guests is, what's it like to be and these days. Ooh, good question. Calm, peaceful. And it took a long time to get here. It's really nice. You know, I was thinking this morning, actually, I got up and I said, well, I could do some work today

or I could just not do some work today because my grandkids are coming over later. So I think I won't. And it was fine. I didn't have any issue with it. And that was not me for a long time. But I'm in a really good space of kind of where I always wanted to be, but never thought. I'd get to, you know? Yeah. And I know there's more coming, but this is a great place to be. Well, that's one of the fun things that we're going to get into today. I think what I'm so fascinated with is just like, you know, wherever you are through the lens that you're looking at life through that lens, it either seems okay or it's not, but it seems that your options are endless now. And that's what I'm hearing from you. So I'd love to know a little bit more of like,

Who was Anne before Scientology? Oh, great question. So before Scientology, I was pretty much the way you see me now, except a lot younger and not understanding life. I was a super high achiever growing up. I was one of those. You know, I always had to get the best grades. I always had to go to the best schools.

I was always number one in whatever because that was just what I wanted to be. Everything seemed easy to me, right? So I thought, there's got to be more than this. When I found Scientology, I was about 27. Instead of going to graduate school, which I had this all planned, right? I got a degree in linguistics from UCLA, and then I was going to go to the Monterey Institute and become an interpreter and go to the UN. And it all figured out. Then I met a guy.

It's always a guy. And I ended up moving up to San Francisco with him, much to my parents' chagrin. Married him. He was super controlling, which they saw, and I didn't, of course. ended up having a three-year affair with my married boss, who was never going to leave his wife. And I started getting into the shame of it all and the guilt of it all, and then the drugs of it all and the alcohol of it all. And I started numbing myself. And then I went, okay, this is going to continue for a while, but I need to find a solution to all this. Because I can do this, as long as I want to do it, I suppose,

and honestly, I look back at it now. I could have stopped the drugs and alcohol any time. That wasn't the issue. The issue is I was trying to find a solution. So I read every book, right? I went to every denomination of church you could imagine. I lived in San Francisco at the time, so it was, you know, a plethora of options. I went to therapy after the divorce, and nothing clicked.

Nothing worked for me. And that's where I was when Scientology entered my life. Well, not really. Where I was was at the very bottom. Like I was a super high achieving person, a searching person, pretty smart person, and utterly devastated. Because one of my best friends I had just found out had died of AIDS at 24. And it broke me. It broke me.

And that day, the day I found that out, this guy calls me who had been talking to me, about Scientology, but I really wasn't super into it. He called me. He said, come see me right now. I can help you. I think I mentioned to you when we had a little bit of a first meeting that in all ways that our society would deem, you know, something a cult. My sister would be in a cult. And thank God she's in that cult, because she'd probably be dead if she didn't. It wasn't. But there's this state that somebody needs to be in in order to become a candidate, a ready candidate for something like that. And I mean, I can tell you all the stories about my sister, but, you know, you could call it somebody's at a crossroads. But one of the things that's interesting is that I notice that there seems to be a trend, especially with people that not only go to Scientology, but go as far as you did, it seems that there's this crossroads, but it's a highly capable person.

And my question is, is how did they find you? This guy that was talking to you, this recruiting process, I could understand if you were walking by and you're like, hmm, what's that? You know, like a lot of people do. It almost seems like somebody had been recruiting you and you were like a prime candidate. Am I right? Yeah, it's really funny that you say that because the chapter in my book that talks about it says a prime target. That's the title of it because I absolutely was. So what happened was I was at a Super Bowl party at my drug dealer's house and something hit me.

all of a sudden, and it had been building for a while. And I went into her bedroom and I just started crying. And she follows me and she goes, what's happening? I said, I have no direction in my life. This is crazy what's happening right now. And she looked at me, she says, you know, I have this person. And this, by the way, this drug dealer was not a Scientologist, clearly. But the person that she talked to me about was a something new in 1987, right, a life coach.

And I said, okay, well, I'll go see her and see if it helps. and I met this woman and she was so innocuous. She was kind and sweet and gentle and la la, la, la, la, let's help you with these tools. She never once said she was a Scientologist. And that's the sneaky part of it, right? Like they'll pull you in through these organizations that don't look like Scientology, right? Like the way to happiness or their education organization. They have a wise world institute of Scientology Enterprises,

but they don't say it out loud. They just say wise, and then they get into your business. So it's these front organizations. So she was kind of like a front man, so to speak. And she gave me tools that help me. Great. I mean, the tools that they give you at the beginning, just like any cult, they help you, right?

And I worked with her for a couple months, but I wasn't telling her the real dirt. Like she didn't know about the affair, the drugs, the financial mess. I was in, all that. She didn't know any of it. And then one day I thought, I trust her. Uh-oh.

I trusted her. So I told her. And I just started weeping. And she looked at me, she goes, honey, and she held my hand, right, in her sweetness and said, how would you like not to have to feel that way ever again? And I looked at her. I said, you're full of shit. Sign me up.

Could I swear? All right. I said, you're full of it. And she said, I said you're full of it. She goes, no, really. Just talk to this guy. I'll set you up with an appointment. And if you don't think it's for you, great.

I mean, I use this technique on hundreds of people after I got into Scientology. It's very well laid out. And once they see that spark in you, they got you. Well, one of the interesting things that I'm looking forward to speaking with you about is that this is not just a Scientology strategy. You know what I mean? Like, I know that strategy as well. You know, we learn strategies.

like the takeaway and things like that. You know, like if it's, if it's not for you, it's no big deal. You know, I mean, all these people are having such great results, but it might not be for you. One of the interesting things is that all of this stuff, you know, Scientology, you hear that word and you just automatically make assumptions, right, unless you don't know what it is. But these strategies were not created by them, you know. So these are going on in real world all over the place. And now with the advent of social media, you don't even know that they're going on.

So, you know, God forbid, you know, David M gets like really figures out social media. Like, we're all going to be psychedelic. God forbid. Yeah. So, it's true. This is just, it's just so fascinating. And I want people to understand that, you know, and I know that you could probably validate that some of the most talented and smartest people you've ever met were probably. in that organization.

Am I correct? 100%, especially at the level I was. Right. I mean, the people that have left there and rebuilt their lives for the most part are just doing incredibly well because they're very capable and very smart and very talented. So once they got through all the mental crap, then they were able to actually use the skills the intelligence they already had, the ability they already had to rebuild their life, you know. So you went and met with them and did you have an audit?

You know, I guess what I'm curious to know is did it immediately make sense or did it feel strange at first? What was that like? So at first, I was wary, right? But this guy made me feel so comfortable, nice guy, unassuming. But he knew what he was talking about because he'd been in Scientology for so long, right? So he had all the stuff down and he knew exactly. what to say to me. But what got to me, I mean, we did a personality test where I had to fill out this 200 question test and then he would lay out a chart and tell me what was wrong with me,

basically, which I then did when I was in Scientology on so many people. But the thing that got me was like I told you, my friend died and he called me that day, and I came over and he did a diabetics auditing session on me. That's a processing that you do where you go back. And you look at the incident and then you run it through. You know, it's, it's Freudian in a lot of ways because Hubbard studied with, you know, Freudian psychoanalysis and all kinds of things when he was developing all of this. But he ran me through this incident of when I found out my friend Chris died and it wasn't getting any better. So he said, okay, go earlier and then go earlier and then go earlier. And I found the moment, I went back to this moment where I was a little baby girl and my dog died.

I didn't know that I had any feeling about that, and I just lost it. And then all of a sudden, gone. All the emotion, all the pain. I could just look at it logically for what it was and move on. I was able to go to my friend's funeral and actually eulogize him, where I would never have been able to do that before. So it really, like, whoa, what is this stuff? So you can see why that would get to me, right? we'll get a copy of my book to you and you'll be like shit if I wish I had just read this book because in my book I call that moment there's a different I have a different way of bringing people to that moment I call it a snap moment I went through a snap moment where I was at a phase of my life where I actually wanted to kill myself that's how deep and dark I was and through a series of questions somebody asked me just like you I mean not only did I feel better but I was completely healed and just

in a flash and it was so monumental that I just built my whole career on that moment. So, boy, you know that really makes a lot of sense to me. Well, that's the whole makes sense brand. No, but it really does because that's exactly right. It was that moment when I went, whoa. And I'm the kind of person who was Anne before Scientology, extremely like if I love something, I am 100% in it. That's it. There's no anything else for me. And so I was in. That was it. So let's talk about that

idea of being in because I had this snap moment. And what I was in with was the idea of helping other people do that. But is it safe to say that you credited this guy and his system with it? And that prompted you to say, I'm in with that. Yes. Because there's a difference. It's like I had something like that happened to me, and I made a decision not to join an organization. I just made a decision on my cause and my calling in life. But you probably at some point, and this is probably what is so special about that audit, is that you credited that moment and that freedom with Scientology and that guy, and that is what set you up to do whatever came next.

Am I correct? Correct. That's exactly what happens. happened. That was my first experience in my life where something happened that rapidly. Yes. Yes. I just love this. Yeah, I got to read your book. Yeah. You'd be pissed. You'll be pissed. You've wasted 20 years. I probably will. Here's an interesting question. I hope you can answer it. Looking back, you know, from this moment now, What psychological need do you think that Scientology initially fulfilled for you? Belonging.

Belonging. So that's, did you figure out that's all you were looking for? So it didn't really, they could have been like a satanic cult and you were. Could have been anything. It could have been anything. And that's the truth. My parents and I had, well, they practically disowned me when I married my first husband and we hadn't spoken. Even after the divorce, when I called, I finally pick up the phone to call my mother and tell her.

And, you know, she was fine with it. She was happy about it. But it had, it was a huge rift. And they were far, far away. And my mother was always my rock. She was, she was my person. And so I was very unstable as far as that went. I didn't really, I mean, I had friends, right?

But I didn't have the people I grew up with. I didn't have this core group of people around me that kind of felt like we were all moving in the same direction. so to speak. Yeah. And boy, do you find that in Scientology? Oh, yeah. Big time.

Well, you find that in any, any, yeah, including some of the most popular religions. 100%. You know, so once again, I just want to always like, I'm not here defending Scientology, but I just want everybody to just like awaken and just recognize that this shit is going on everywhere. It's not just happening in that building. So one thing that outsiders, I want to help people understand a little bit more, because, you know, this is this wonderful human right now. She's on the other side of this, and we're going to get into the nitty-gritty of that.

But, you know, people don't just join something thinking like, oh, I'd like to lose 20 years of my life gradually at the time. You know, like, so she's a human being and there were different phases. But can you kind of walk us through the progression of this thing? Like, what are, you know, the first commitments that somebody makes and how does the organization kind of progressively earn your deeper trust over time to the point where you're like, I mean, is this like, is this like a job promotion when you go see org? Or is this like them taking, do they handpick people for that? So take me through the progression because you first came in there and what are the steps

of making it go from this personal growth like aha moment to something else where all of a sudden you might feel like, wow, I'm freaking important now. This is crazy. Boy, you ask good questions. I'm so glad I'm doing this. So first of all, I started out as any other public Scientologists. So you've got different levels of science in terms of commitment, right? You've got your public Scientologists.

They're just your everyday people doing their work, you know, living their life, just by applying all these tools and moving up the what's called the bridge to total freedom, trying to achieve total spiritual freedom. So that was how I started. But then I did something called, it was a stage on the bridge called the Purification Rundown. And I had to do that in a Scientology mission,

which is a lowest level Scientology formal organization. And when I went in there to do it, they slowly worked on me. You would love it here. We are great people to work with. And you could come part time while you still have your business and help us to help other people because you've had so many successes. You know, slowly they got me. So they joined staff at the mission part time.

I was still doing my other stuff. Not getting paid. Oh, well, no. I mean, a little bit. Right. You know, they tell you that you're going to get paid every week based on how much the organization brings in. Okay, got you. There's a little bit of a multi-level marketing kind of a vibe.

Yeah. Yes, very much. Okay. You're on your, you know, you're responsible for your own income kind of deal. Sure, sure. So I started there, and then they, they just, you know, they saw this little bright, little sparkly thing. And they were like, ooh, get my, I'll get my talons into you.

And they ended up, they said, we know you're part-time, but we're going to send you to the highest-level organization on the planet for training. So they sent me from Mountain View, California, to Clearwater, Florida, just to go to training at the flag service organization, administrative training. And I thought, well, aren't I special that they are doing this? Yeah, because they're like, we don't do this for everybody, right? Well, let me, let me ask you a question about that. So before they invited you to do that, were you aware? I mean, were they already positioning this elite group like the C-org group as like who the hell wouldn't want to be that? It's not for everybody, but if somebody gives you the nod,

you take it. So when you got that invitation, did you just lose control of your thinking and just being like, what the? It's like getting cold for the main part of a movie. Well, that wasn't me going into the Seorg yet. That was just me training to go back to the mission. But when I got to flag and I saw all these people in uniforms and the fear members of helping me, that was the first time.

Right. And then after that, I got back and, oh, well, When I was there, I was like the bell of the ball. I mean, they treated me beautifully because I was a staff member in a little mission, but they, you know, they see the potential. So I did my training. I was student of the week, whatever that meant. And I was brought up on stage in front of a thousand people at their graduation.

They're all cheering for me. I mean, you can see what's happening. Right. So I go back to the mission and I work for a little bit longer. and then maybe two years later, the mission turned into a higher level organization. They got okay to become a higher level organization. And they said, okay, so now we can really help people,

but we really need you here more. And at that point, I was like, well, my business isn't doing very good because I'm spending all my time here anyway. And what it did, okay. Which is part of the plan. Of course it is. So I joined staff, right?

But I was never, I never really thought about being in the Seaorg. It's funny because the first guy that I met, the one that did that Dianetics auditing on me, he had showed me, he had taken me to an international event, right, that they show it big up on the screens. And it's where all the international management executives talk about the winning Scientology, blah, blah, all over the world. And I went to this event and I was shocked when I first walked in. there were so many people there watching this thing on the screen, right? And then there's this big, you know, video, opening video and music and boo, Scientology around the world is doing all these wonderful things. And then this person comes up on stage in epaulets and the whole uniform, right?

And it's David Miscavage. And he's talking about, you know, he's very charismatic. Of course he is, because that's how they are. And I'm looking at it. I watched him, you know, like I watched, I'm not comparing, but like I watched. Joel Olstein on that part of that religion. I watched David and regardless of what they're saying, they're very good at it. Yes, 100%. So after the video, I talked to my person, this person, and I said, who are these people? And he says, oh, that's the Seorg. That's the most elite level

of Scientology. And you would be great in that. That would be perfect for you. So he planted that seed. I'd been in Scientology for two weeks, and he already planted the seed. Who planted that seed? Who said that? My very first person, that person who did the Dianetics auditing on me. Okay, so now you know what you know. Was that guy, like, was that strategic? Like, did that guy know that part of his job was to guide you through that process over a couple of weeks?

Or did you actually do some things that made him go, ooh, she could be good? It was because of the questions I asked. It wasn't part of his strategy because honestly what he probably would have liked more is if I'd just been a public Scientologist and spent a lot of money. Sure. Because he gets, if he referred me, then he would get a percentage. He would get a commission. Again, MLM, right? He would get a commission on everything that I did.

And you have to understand, Scientology services are into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? So he would probably have not wanted me to be in the Cork. So there are people making, besides David, making money there? Public Scientologists, nobody in the Sea Orrug, just David Misca. All the money in the Seorg, all the money that Scientology gets from their parishioners goes straight into the coffers of the, well, David Miscavage, basically. All right, but this idea of this guy getting a commission because of, you know, spending more money, it's not really his money.

Is it more of him getting excited to say, David, look what I did? Sure. It's both. It's both. Right. And me getting into the Seorg, well, I was in this organization for a couple more years. And I wasn't planning on joining the Seargue. I hadn't had kids yet. I was just 29 years old. I didn't have kids yet. And I wanted kids. But this guy came into my organization. When you become a class five, this level of organization is called a Class 5 organization. And then above that, there is an advanced organization, flag service organization, and then international management, which is way up there, and they're involved there over everything. Well, when this guy came into my organization, he was what's called a flag representative. And they're the only Seargue member in a Class 5 organization. And their job is to make sure that your organization is following Elrod Hubbard's teachings to the letter, right? That's his job. But he was really cute, English, sweet guy.

and we hit it off. And I was like, hmm. And he said, well, we can't do anything. I said, why? He said, because I'm in the Sea org and you're not. Right. Oh, I said, well, do we have to, you know, because we were talking about marriage. And he said, do we, I said, do we have to, you know, both be in?

He goes, well, basically, but let's petition international management to see if we can get married now. And then later you join the Seorg. And they approved that the petition. But on the line of the petition, they said it's approved as long as Ann agrees to activate her C or contract when called to do so. So guess when called to do so was two weeks later. Yeah. They walked in and they got me. Are you pissed about that? Like, I mean, because I know that there's a kind of a paradox going on that you can't really be pissed because you went on to do this to other people.

Right. But if we just go back to that moment, you know, do you go back and say, that motherfucker, I can't believe. Yes. I can't believe he did what I did to people to me. Right. But that's the point. You all do it.

Right. We all do it once we're in. Interesting. He knew what he was doing. So fascinating. Here's an interesting question. Most people, what's interesting about the human brain, and that's why I think it's so important for people to understand how easily.

persuaded we are. Starting one more children and, you know, like if somebody knows what they're doing, it's not that hard to get somebody to, you know, there's actually four stages to building a cult and anybody could do it. I could go build a cult if I wanted to. But out in the real world, a lot of human beings very often think they're thinking for themselves because they're unaware of the program, condition, nature of what they've been told.

Through this process, did you think you were making like free children? choices or did the choices just seem like kind of free and obvious only when you're inside that organization? Right. So it was like a jacuzzi experience. While you're in that organization, you're just like, duh, of course. Right. That's exactly right.

This is the obvious next step. I mean, and then they told me, what they told me was you have to understand nobody goes from the level of organization you're in straight up to management. This does not happen. Right. And it didn't happen, but it did for me. So, of course, they, again, like you were saying earlier, it's the prestige of it all, right?

Yeah, strategic. You're going to get right to the top, baby, because you can write. Didn't anybody ever come up to you? I'd be like, get the fuck out of here. No. No. So like, no, like you never ran across somebody that was like, get out of here. Is it that tight?

I mean, because we're going to get to this part in this story where you're like I'm out of here. Like when you were in that position, did you start like trying to help people or did you just want to get the hell out of you or you want to talk to anybody? Are you talking about when I decided to leave? Well, what I'm saying is I would assume that while you were coming up in the ranks, somebody else was like coming to grips and wanting to leave. But like I can't imagine that you spent 20 years and nobody higher up than you said, get the

fuck out. There is a reason. And I will tell you exactly what it is because I did the same thing later on in my Seward career because I knew about it management. And I had to be, I had to run a team when I was at Flag at a lower level. I had to run a team trying to get them prepared to go up to it management. I couldn't tell them anything. And here's why you are not allowed to speak to another Scientologist in a negative manner about Scientology or you are 100% punished because what will happen is it's called there's a policy letter. called knowledge reports.

And what it is basically is you snitch on each other. So if I were to say to somebody, you got to get out, they would instantaneously write a report on me and send it to the ethics department so that I would get dealt with. Because if they don't, and then somebody finds out later that I told them this or that, you know, they would be in trouble. So it's a very closed system and you don't, even scientific, even, Even public Scientologists, they don't talk to each other negatively about Scientology ever, ever. No, it's all closed off.

Hey, you know, you've got to give it to this guy. I mean, he's really set this right way. I think if anybody knew how to do that in corporate America, they would be doing it too. You're probably right. This is probably what a lot of people are curious. I know I sure am. But, you know, we hear about the Scientology, but then we hear about the Seorg. I told you that while we were in Aruba, we saw that ship and we were like,

Everybody knew what it was. Yeah, the one that never leaves the port and stuff. Right. So I want to know what exactly is the Seorg, and I'd love you to take me through a normal day of being in the Seorg, like from waking up to going to bed. What is it like? So the Seargue was started because El Ron Hubbard had to get out of where he was because he was because he was being investigated for all kinds of fraudulent activities. So he created this organization on ships, and that's how it started. And he, you know, everybody had to wear naval uniforms and blah, blah, blah.

He was all into it because I guess he was on a ship in the back in the day when he was in the Navy. But it started like that. And then it came on to land in the 70s in Florida. And it just expanded from there. And it's basically the Seorg is the most paramilitary organization you can imagine. You wear uniforms all the time. You, okay, typical day. You're in birthing.

You're in, you know, shared birthing, so you don't have your own place. And it's all... What is a birthing? Like, you know how in the military bunks and you all live in the same place? That's birthing. So basically... Is there any fooling around, like Seorg people? Oh, heck no.

Okay, never. Oh, no. Oh, no. You did so much trouble. There's no sex. No, unless you're married. Unless you're married. So there were kids in the Seorg that would get married at like 14.

just so they could have sex or 15 or 16. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, you're stuck. Right. Or you get a divorce. Divorce isn't particularly frowned on that much, honestly.

Even though Scientology talks about how important marriages and how they keep families together. Well, obviously they don't keep families together, but that's a whole other story. All right. So you wake up and you're in your birthing. Yeah. So I get up, get my quick shower because you can only have 15 minutes, right? Get on a bus. because at this point in time, our birthing, where we were housed,

was separate from the base where we worked. That changed over time because we had to build birthing, like we personally, with our own hands, had to build the birthing buildings on the base. That way they could keep us all behind the barbed wire, right? But where we lived, the place where we lived was also surrounded by fencing and had a guard station, so you couldn't just leave. Right. So get up, get on the bus.

After you take a shower and put your uniform on, get on the bus, go in, go to the mess hall. And you have your breakfast. It has to be really fast, like a half an hour. And then you go to muster. And muster is like, it's a military term for, you know, your roll call. So you're lined up in your divisions, right? There are seven divisions in Scientology organizations and everybody. I was in this division two, dissemination. Anyway. So you line up and you get roll call. and anybody who's in trouble gets brought up to the front, you know, and here's what this person did.

Let me tell you while they're dirty secrets. And then just so that you know you better not do that during the day or else. And then go to work. Now I worked in the marketing department. So we'd work till noon, have a half hour lunch, have another muster work, have a dinner, have another muster work till 11 o'clock at night or sometimes all night, mostly all night, and then wake up and do the same thing over and over again. Sounds innocuous was not because under all of it was the constant state of panic because we worked

directly with David Miscavage. And it was constant panic like, what's he going to say today? Is he going to, is my beeper going to go off and I'm going to have to run up to his office and he's going to scream at me for something I wrote in a magazine? That's literally what it was like all day, every day, panic. How much sleep did you get on a typical? average four hours and average when you because I mean all I really know

is what I've like seen on these shows and stuff and they're always like they're not David McTavich you know produce shows and everybody talks about him like he's the devil and you know like he would like punch somebody in the face and you know or something like that so was this is this a very very

intelligent man or you know from where you're at now Or does this man like have a problem? He's got a problem. I will tell you my experience. The first time I met him, I was, we had a day where we, okay, on Saturdays in the C-organic management, you had to do what's called Renos, meaning manual labor, everybody, because that's how they got the buildings built. And that's how they got everything done. I pulled more, you know, electrical cable through pipes that I can't even tell you.

I don't do anything around the house now. But we had, in marketing, we had an okay to be off rentos that day because we had to get this campaign done. And on those days, you got to wear civvies. So I got to wear the one dress I had brought with me, right? It was a cute little sundress. This was like the early 90s, cute little sundress. And I was just being my usual boppy self because I'd just been there for a few weeks,

maybe a week or two. and I'm sitting at the computer and I'm typing away and I'm looking over and I'm laughing with somebody and all of a sudden I felt this. I should have listened to my gut, right? But I didn't. And all of a sudden I hear, who are you? I jump out of my chair because I knew who it was. And I turn around and there he was.

And I said, it's me, sir, my name is Ann Bradley. I was Anne Bradley at the time. And he has an aura about him. that I really find it hard to describe because I've never experienced it with anybody else. The chill that went up my spine and then I quickly just went, nope, he's the head of Scientology. It's me. I'm feeling that way because there's something wrong with me that I would feel that way around him, right? So I said who I was.

He goes, well, let's hope your writing's better than your first impression, you know? And I'm like, holy shit, I have ruined now. And I was so upset. Let me ask you about that. What do you mean? This is what, because hearing it from the outside, I'm thinking like, who the fuck does this guy think he is? Right.

But you're standing up and you're like, oh, my God, I don't want to make this guy upset. Is that because you're afraid of him? Or are you afraid of losing this status and whatever momentum that you've been working on? Like, where's the fear? Like, what happened to the adult that says, fuck, you? you, dude. That was long gone. I've been in Scientology for a few years.

But what were you striving towards? Like, what were you trying to accomplish that you didn't want to screw up, that he could screw up for you? For him to be, to be, to be in his good graces, because I saw what happened to people who were not. So it was fear-based? 100%. Okay.

Fear and intimidation. So you just wanted to do your work and not get in trouble? Yes. So you- That's what we all wanted. So, at that point, you've completely lost your identity and you've given it to somebody else. Correct.

Interesting. And you're unaware of it. Oh, no, totally unaware of it. But it's a lot of what I had to unpack when I got out. You know, there was just so much of that that went on. And it took a long time to forgive myself for putting myself in that position. Right. Yeah.

Are there people there? because you've been through all of the different phases of this. Are there people there that genuinely believe in the mission? 100%. Well, 100%. But I mean, like, how do you go from that to starting to question things? Or like, say, I got to get out of here. There's got to be this transition period where you're starting to say, like, how did I let myself go so far?

And all that. I mean, there's got to be a lot of that thinking going on. on, just maybe there's too much fear to like ever act on it. Yes, but it's also the way the organization and the way Hubbard set this up. If you have any doubt at all, any doubt, you are in what's called a lower condition. And you have to do a whole series of stuff to get yourself back out of that condition and in with the group. If you have doubt, it's because something you have done.

You have committed some overact, which in Scientology, it means, you know, some transgression. You have a withhold, meaning you've done something and you're withholding it. You have evil intentions towards Scientology or Elron Hubbard or David Miscavage. It's all put back on you. So if you have any doubt whatsoever, it's you. It's not the organization because he's infallible. It's fascinating how this works. Yeah, I mean, you look at this guy, David, and I want to ask you some questions about these like high power, you know, celebrities.

you can't not recognize that his kung fu is pretty strong. I mean, you know, the dude is like he might be a lunatic, but like he's a well-calculated strategic lunatic, you know? Oh, he absolutely is. And he put himself in that position after Hubbard died. Like he wasn't supposed to be Hubbard's successor. He put himself there. Smart.

You can't be dumb and do that. Right. And he got this whole group of people around. him who were his loyal soldiers. Yeah. Until he beat them all up and put them in the hole. But that's, you know. The hole.

It's called a hole, yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that there, you've mentioned before that you actually interviewed John Travolta like. So how did that opportunity happen? And what surprised you about him? Well, I had been, I wasn't on the int base anymore because David Mischavich had kicked me to the curb and put, and don't me at fly. which is a lower organization, but it's still the highest service organization in Scientology.

But I was running all the marketing there, and I was doing their monthly magazine, and they wanted the head of the base, Debbie Cook. She was friends with John Travolta, and she asked him if he would be interviewed for the magazine. And she wanted me to do it because she trusted me. We had developed a really good relationship. So I got to interview him, and it was quite an experience. because his schedule is really interesting, or it was back then.

He would sleep during the day and then work at night. So I had to interview him later in the evening at a hotel room, a nice one, obviously. But when I met him, he was the kindest, nicest guy. Yeah. Like super nice, super interested in my questions, very, you know,

know, John Travolta, a lot of charisma. I ended up doing the interview. It was fabulous. And then after he asked if my team could take the Christmas photos for his family for their Christmas card. We're like, yeah, of course. So, you know, I met Kelly Preston, lovely, rest in peace. I met his oldest son, Jet, who also passed, and his daughter Ella. And we did this whole setup. It was like at three o'clock in the morning or something because nobody was around so we could do it with this beautiful setup but they were all very generous with their time very kind very nice not everybody I talked to was like that but he certainly was and I tell people that all the time don't judge somebody just because they're a Scientologist like in my in my opinion you can believe whatever

you want I do not care just don't hurt people with it right don't cause pain and you know the only thing I have an issue with with celebrities is that a lot of them know what's gone on, especially Tom Cruise knows what's going on behind the scenes, but not going to rock the boat because why? Why should he? And I don't like that. It's a powerful boat to rock. So what's the role of the celebrity? What's their experience like? And did you as a C-org member kind of secretly find yourself pissed at them. Oh, I didn't secretly resent them. I was vocal about it and then I got in trouble for it.

But let me just, that was, this was closer to the end. You're a trouble making. Put it that way. You're a troublemaker. Okay. Yeah. I like you. I like you a lot.

Yeah. So basically they are the cash cow for Scientology, right? They bring in a lot of money. They donate a lot of money and they get a lot of people interested who give money. So it's all about money. Just clearly it's about money. So Elron Hubbard wrote a policy in the 80s or 70s, I think. I don't remember exactly, but it was how the Celebrity Center was started. It was started as a project, Project Celebrity, to get celebrities in the Scientology. And here's all the steps you do, because it's so important to get celebrities in the Scientology.

And that's what they did. And then once they're in, there's a... a whole organization that just caters to them and gives them everything they want, the best of everything. They study in different areas. They get their auditing in different areas from the peons, you know, they go in different entrances, they get special treatment. You know, they can speak to their family who've been declared suppressive. Nobody else can. So, yeah, they get a lot of special treatment. And I was not happy about it. I'll give you one, just one example, because this is such a good one. So when Tom Cruise was given what's called, they give these freedom medals. And he was given the ultimate of all freedom medals. And there was this big long video and how great he was. And David

Miscabbage, we were all sitting in the audience when this happened. David Miscabbage, when he said Tom Cruise is the most dedicated Scientologist I know I wanted to barf. Right. And that I was sitting in that audience and that was one of the chinks in my armor. You know, were you the only one or were there others pissed as well, do you think? I think there were others. But again, we couldn't talk about it. But I saw, I saw expressions on people's faces. I got to imagine that, you know, even though you're not allowed to say anything, like,

if I was in the C.org and you were and I heard them say that, I would kind of look, I would, I would like know about you. And I would look at you and be like, you bet. So was there any like looks like that? or no. Absolutely. Yes. But we had to do it. We had to be very furtive about it. We couldn't just like come right out. I just want to make sure. The ethics officers are all looking at you. So you just got to kind of look over and go. I just want to make sure that like, you know, behind closed doors, they're still human. Like, dude. Yeah, I hadn't, I hadn't lost all of my humanity yet. Okay, good, good. Yeah. You were

that's why, you know, but the thing that really got me out. Yeah. Was when I saw the OT3 materials. Tell me about that. Yeah. Three months, three months. Three months. Three months, later I was gone. What was the first defining moment that like the first paper cut, the first crack that made you go, I don't know if I can handle that. It was that. So picture this. A Searg member doesn't usually get to that level.

It's very hard to get to that level. Is that like a godly level of some sort? Right. And you're, and you know, public Scientologists, they can pay for it. Seagr members, you have to work your way up to that and, you know, nobody did that. But I did because, again, overachiever. So I thought, okay, once I get to OT3, I'm going to know the secrets of the universe. This is so exciting, right?

And I had made that level. And I was taking my, now you have to take the materials in a locked briefcase. Nobody can see them because El Ron Hubbard says, if you look at these materials, without being ready for it, you could die. So he said this. So I had these materials. I'm so excited. I go into this room by myself to open this folder with these materials in it. And I look down and it's this handwritten Elron Hubbard writings about this level.

And I'm like, whoa, this is a big deal. I've never seen anything like this. And then I start reading it. And I'm like, 75 million years ago, an evil galactic overlord named Zinu. And it talks about how, you know, watch South Park. It explains it all. It takes us all and it was a tax issue or something and took us all and put us in DC8s and dropped us over volcanoes.

And because of that, a lot of the, a Thaeton is a spiritual being in Scientology. So a lot of the Thaeton is detached and they had to find somewhere to go so they attached onto us. So we have thousands of these what's called BTs or body Thetons attached to us. And the OT levels you're supposed to get rid of them. so that because they're actually the cause of all your problems in life and your weird emotions and your reactivity. It's these things that these alien beings attached to you. And I'm reading this and I'm going, uh-oh. Oh shit.

I was just like, what? But I mean, but then instantly you tamp it down because you know a lot of people who are OT outside of, you know, and they're in their own special little group. So I did, I read them. materials, I closed it up, I walked out of the room. And all the people in that organization who were at that level or above looked at me, knowing glances, you're one of us now. Now you know the truth. And I was like, oh, well, maybe I should just do this and see where it takes me, but it didn't take me anywhere, except out, took me out. How is that any different than some of

the stories that mainstream religion tells? It's not. But I mean, because what we're talking about here because I mean you got to think about the the OT OTC is that what it's called. OT3. There's OT levels from one to eight. So it sounds like a drink. Like I'll take an OTA. Yeah, I'll take an O2, three, please. But there's got to be some O T3s that read that and be like, oh my God.

You know, because I have friends. I've always been fascinated with religion because like somebody's got to be wrong. You know, there's so many different ones. Right, right. But you can see when somebody gets like, so entrenched in their belief and it's so important for them. Why do we look at this? It's probably because of David, you know, like, because if it was Jesus running an organization, everybody would just be like, yeah, of course. So, you know, it's, it seems like the biggest problem,

like, maybe I should like give them some advisement or something, but it seems like they're, don't do that. I'm just kidding. It seems like their biggest problem is that, that, you know, unlike religion, people are being messed with and mistreated and, you know, and things like that because that's not happening in like the Christian organizations and things like that. So, you know, that's bad business. You're absolutely right. And you think they learn that by now, but the policies are, what they policies are.

And they just follow the policies. They don't care what other people say. I mean, somebody's going to be like, hey, we should get rid of the OT3 move, you know, because that's like fucking everything up. Everybody's like, you know, like, it's like when you come out of the room with the OT3 info, everybody's like. Yeah. And somebody, like, somebody's like, I love it.

I love it, right? As the best. Should I be loving this, you know? I'm a different person now because I know what's causing all my problems. Okay. So that moment that you're like, I'm going to get out of here. Like, how do you do that? Okay.

Well, that wasn't the moment. Okay. That wasn't the moment. But there were a few moments in between that. That was the moment before the moment. Okay. So the actual moment was in August 2, 2007 was my parent's 60th wedding anniversary. And they lived in Lakeland, Florida, which is about an hour from Clearwater, hour and a half. I couldn't go to their 50th anniversary because I was behind Barb wire and that was going to happen. Breaking rocks and all that stuff.

It wasn't going to happen. But the 60th, I was like, well, they're an hour away. I'm going to get approved. I had to write a whole petition to get approved to go. And I had to have all these things in place so that I could go for one night. But I got it approved. I rented a little car with cash

because there's no... The enterprise at that time around the corner from where we work was renting cars to Scientology to see our members for cash because they knew none of us had credit cards. And they also knew we'd all bring the cars back because we'd get in trouble, obviously. So I go to my parents' anniversary party and it was the most glorious, joyful.

All my family, my nieces and nephews from Canada came down. Everybody was there. And it had been a long time since you've experienced that. Yeah. Like decades. And my mother was just my mother again, right? Like imagine what this woman went through. She didn't even know where I was for 10 of those 20 years.

She didn't even know. And not once did she say. to me, you're in a cult, you need to get out, Scientology bad. You know, she didn't say, because she knew instinctively what that would do. If she did that, pushed me right back in. So instead, I go to this beautiful event and we're all talking about our childhood and how much fun we used to have and sitting around the table laughing on so much love. And I was like, this is what that feels like.

I had forgotten what it felt like to be loved and appreciated because I hadn't been for so long. Which was what you joined looking for. Yes. How crazy is that? Right. So at that moment, I was like, this is amazing. But even then, I thought, well, I feel really good. So now I'm just going to go back and I'm going to continue on helping the world.

Now I feel really rejuvenated. And I get back to the base in time for Morning Muster. We go to Morning Muster, and then I'm called into a meeting with the Deputy Executive Director and who starts screaming at me, just the usual. But it was such a huge change from what I'd just been through that I really saw it this time. And she's yelling at me about how dare I go to see my family when I hadn't finished this marketing campaign. And I'm going to stay up all the expletives, right? I'm going to stay up all night.

I'm so suppressive, blah, blah, blah. And at that moment, I looked at her. And I went, yes, sir. And inside, I was like, I'm hell out of here. I'm gone. But I didn't say it, right? I went back to my office and I said, okay, team, this is my fault. You don't have to stay up.

You go home and I'll take care of it. But I wasn't taking care of it. I was getting out of there. So I spent the whole night writing a dear John, dear Ron letter, right? Like a dear John letter, I'm out of here. Do not follow me. I am not coming back. You can label me suppressive.

You can say I'm the entire reason that things aren't happening the way they should for Scientology. Just don't follow me. I knew they were going to follow me, but I tried. And I got in the car and I drove to Lakeland, Florida. But how did you get out? Like, weren't you on like a base? No, no. This was at the flag base.

And where I was, we were in this outline building in the marketing department that that wasn't behind the gates. So that was another mistake on their part is that they, at that level, they trust you guys would never do such a thing. Well, most didn't, right? Until I did. And then, ooh. So where do you go?

Okay, so I did not go to my mother's house, mom and dad's house. And my younger brother lived in Lakeland, too, still does. I didn't go to his house because they knew, Scientology knew where they lived. They knew everything about me. But my older brother, who was an over-the-road trucker at the time, was staying at a hotel in a holiday inn. And I knew where he was staying because I'd stayed that night with them. Right. So I go to the Holiday Inn. I drive like a bad out of hell and go to the holiday in thinking that they might still be there.

I get there, his truck is gone, his pickup. I'm like, oh, what am I going to do? I'm going up to the room. Maybe she's still there. My sister-in-law, walk up, knock on the door, she opens it. I was like, and I just, she goes, what are you doing here? I said, I'm done. I left.

I'm not going back. She grabs me and yanks me in, shuts the door. She's like, yes. But she didn't do that. She's very calm about it. And my brother is on the phone with her, right? and she hands me the phone and he says baby sister are you okay i'm like no he said i got you and what he did was he took me in his 18 wheeler across the country for two and a half weeks

so they could not find me and they came and they camped out in front of my parents house and my brother younger brother's house but they didn't know where i was right so they gave up after two weeks. He saved me. Are they, how long has it been since you left? Almost 18 years. So do you still feel like, do they still mess with you a little bit? Or have they just completely let you go? They don't, but when the book comes out, they probably will. And I don't care. I hope they put out a website about me. I can't wait. I'll share it everywhere. And this is the thing. The internet has changed what Scientology is able to do or not do. They can't, they're notoriously litigious, but I'm just telling my story.

They can't do anything about that. And so many of us are telling our stories, and that's so important. And again, like I said, Scientology, I don't care. I mean, there's a lot of good stuff, or I wouldn't have stayed that long, right? But I don't want people to be hurt the way I saw people being hurt and I was hurt. So I love to hear these stories and I love to recognize that leaving the organization was not the end of the story. It was actually the beginning. So I guess my question would be, who were you without Scientology all of a sudden?

Nothing. I was nothing. Imagine waking up from a coma for 20 years. You're in a coma for 20 years. You wake up. Everything's different. you have no idea who you are, what you believe, what you should even do tomorrow. Like, I had nothing.

I had nothing. I had no money. People say, well, you started at square zero. I said, no, I started at below zero. I didn't even have a square thing to stand on. I was broken. I was really broken when I got out. And I didn't know what was going to happen.

I didn't know. Did you think, did you feel? that pain and almost think about going back at all? Did I think about going back at the beginning? Because that's your comfort level, even though it was a disaster. At the beginning, at the beginning, I thought about it a couple times, but not seriously because what I did when I got out is I started researching like right away. Right, right.

I was like, I got to find out the truth because I shouldn't be feeling like this. and but you also have like the thing that was the hardest to deal with was the feeling of ruining your life I ruined my life I wasted the best years of my life I never had kids because it wasn't allowed to I was in from 27 to 47 I have nothing to show for it what am I going to do am I just going to be and also by the way you are told when you're in the seorg if you leave the seorg it's the worst somebody leaving the Seargo is worse than somebody just leaving Scientology. It's the worst of the worst, and you will be poor, you'll get sick, you'll end up flipping burgers. And I was like, flipping burgers would be way better than what I've been through for 20 years.

Sounds great. Yeah, I did. I did a lot of that stuff when I got out. I was happy. I was had a job for $8 an hour, and I was like, what? Yeah, it's more money than you ever made there. None. So bring us back, you know, to the current day.

know, tell us about your social media, your TikTok, you know, why are you out there telling your story now? I mean, we're grateful that you are. But, you know, why now after 18 years? I'm strong enough now. I wasn't. It took me all this time to get to the point where nothing can touch me. That's really, truly how I feel. I'm very chill about all this. And what I really want, like I wrote about, I started writing about it in 2019, but you have to understand up to that point from 2007 to 2019, nobody knew. I had, I lied to everyone. I was living a huge lie. Nobody knew about my life or my past. And I thought if I started talking about it, I'd lose everybody. You know, they'd think I was crazy. Who's this nutcase, you know, this ex-cult member? And I thought

I'd lose my job. I thought I'd lose all my friends. I wouldn't lose my husband because he met me two years out of Scientology when I was premenapausal and he married me. So if he does that, hold on. Hold on to that guy. He's mine for life. He's my angel. Tell me a little bit about, I think the book is going to be called Joy Without Apology. And so tell me why that title and what is it that you hope to accomplish or have readers, you know, pull from it. I think I really want people to know that you can find joy in your life, no matter what you think you've done, no matter what mistakes you think you've made,

there's hope and there's joy. And I started finding joy in the little tiny things, right, in my life. And here's one thing that I should say that I think is really important, which is that when you get out of something like the Sea Org, right, and you are able to actually walk around on the street without anybody like following you or go sit on a park bench and look at ducks, There's a level of joy in that. Sleep in?

Yeah, exactly. But there's joy in that that I was so appreciative of every little moment. And being grateful for the little tiny moments that I was having because of how horrible my life had been really helped me to, you know, get better. Because I wasn't stuck. I didn't feel stuck. I felt like I had a blank slate and I could write. on it whatever I wanted to write on it. So I had two choices.

I could be, well, I'm not saying I wasn't miserable for years and years. I was day drinking. It was bad. But I got through it and I got through it one step at a time, but always trying to find, like the good things, like I would just say to myself, yeah, I did waste all those years, but it can't have been for nothing. Right. They just can't have.

I learned a lot. Like I even wrote a post when I first got it, when I first started writing about my blog, my blog back in 2019, I wrote a post about what Scientology gave to me. And there were a lot of things. A lot of things. I can work like a dog. No problem, right? If I need to get something done, it's easy.

Yeah, you can talk people into anything you want. I can. That's why I'm a content strategy. I've been very, very cautious about this conversation with you right here today. I'm going to have to like reassess. Did I just sign up or something? No. No, I've got nothing for you to sign up for.

I'm just, but the reason I'm, it took me all this time to get out visibly, visually. Like I'd see all my friends out there talking, Mike Rinder. I worked with him for years and he's out there talking and all my friends are out there being vocal. And I'm like, I can't do it. I'm not ready. I'm not ready. But at least I knew I wasn't ready. Right.

And I also know that everybody has their, they can, they talk at their own time. You know, if they're ready to talk, great. If you don't want to talk about it. on you, you know, live your life, build your life back up. It's okay. Like I hear a lot of ex-Scientologists that say more people should be speaking out. I disagree with that. You should speak out if you feel like you can. Right. But it's too detrimental to your mental health to speak out before you're ready, in my opinion. Well, it seems like joy without apology is going to help a lot of people do that, whether they're in Scientology or not. You know, just, yeah, so I can see the way that you just

received what I just said and that seems like it's that's what I hope I'll share making me a little weepy you know that I'm two weeks away from receiving a diagnosis of cancer you know and I and I find myself I have to be very careful talking about this because I know that some people don't like the way I talk about about this but I feel myself very very lucky to have it because of just so many lessons I've learned about myself. It's it's made me, you know, so here's this terrible thing that nobody would want. And here I am feeling in certain ways lucky. I guess my question to you is when you look back at those 20 years, are you in some way grateful for the experience? Because like, I mean, first of all, your story is amazing. Like, and everybody that just listened to this episode is going to be like,

wow, you're going to help people really, really understand, yes, about Scientology, but more about some of the stuff in their life. And here you are, this fantastic human being with unlimited potential and opportunities in a weird way. Are you grateful? Absolutely. In fact, when I first was out of Scientology, this is a cute story, my sister, who is a very strong Christian, was in the Salvation Army for 47 years, when I got out of Scientology, she took one look. She sat me down and she said, please don't go to church. Please don't go anywhere right now.

Just heal. I will never tell you what to believe. I will never, you know, but your story is going to be a big story one day. Your story is going to affect a lot of people because of what you've been through. And I want you to know that I see you. And, you know, I had so much support from my family. But there was never pressure and there was never the push to make me talk about it until I was ready to talk about it. But yes, I have a lot of gratitude to what I went through because I'm not in it now.

I said to my husband, this was something I said to him. When we were first together, I would say all the time until he got sick of it. I would say, man, I could have been at this point in my life if I hadn't gotten into Scientology. I could have a big company that I'm running or I could have all these kids or I could have this or I could have that. He said, yeah, but you wouldn't have me. And he's 100% right. He is the cherry on the Sunday, man. And now I have everything.

eight grandkids. It's amazing. Isn't that amazing? And most of them I got to see being born. If you're living in the present moment, you're doing great. Yes. You're doing great. And, you know, there's no value in living your life through the past.

And I would assume that there's a lot of people that are secretively, you know, jealous of you that are aware of this. And, you know, I, if I, you're probably right. I don't know if they're allowed to listen to podcasts, but if they are. are. I hope they do. Yeah. Well, me too, you know, but I think that the bigger picture here is all the people that are not in Scientology, but kind of are in a different way. So, you know, thank you so much for being here. This was just such a, thank you. Yeah, I'm unapologetically full of joy. Yay. I'm thrilled. What, so the book is coming out. What, what, what, where can people learn more about you and follow you. My TikTok, Ann Gullert Hill, my substack, Ann Hill rights. I just started a YouTube

channel, Ann Gullard Hill, so you can find me all over the place. Hi, this is Ann Gullard Hill, and this podcast makes sense. That's it for today. To support the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, be sure to subscribe, like, and share, as well as follow the Make Sense substack for free daily quotes, live streams, and blogs. And remember, learning without action is just another form of distraction. If something hit home and you learn something today, give it away. That's the only way it's going to stay. See you next time.

Makes sense. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.