Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Helen Urwin - The Woman Fortune 500 Brands Called in Secret for 30 Years — Finally Reveals The 9 Freedoms of Being Giant - E208

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

For thirty years, if you worked at Mars, Kellogg, General Mills, KPMG, or Sony — and your brand needed to change from the inside out — there's a good chance you were quietly sent to one woman. No client logos. No case studies. No public profile. Just results so consistent that people in the industry started calling her 'the best-kept secret in the corporate world.' Today, that secrecy ends. Helen Althea Urwin is stepping out from behind three decades of confidentiality to talk — maybe for the first time ever — about what she actually believes. A philosophy she calls Being Giant, built on something she calls The Nine Freedoms. We're going to find out why the biggest brands on earth trusted her with their reinvention... and why she's finally trusting us with hers. Stay with me. Connect With Helen Urwin: Website: https://www.beinggiant.com IG: @being.giant Follow Dr. JC Doornick and the Makes Sense Academy:► Makes Sense Substack - https://drjcdoornick.substack.com ► Instagram: / drjcdoornick ► Substack: / drjcdoornick ►Facebook:  / makessensepodcast ►YouTube:  / drjcdoornick MAKES SENSE PODCAST Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. This podcast explores topics that expand human consciousness and enhance performance. On the Makes Sense Podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is subjective and an acquired taste. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at begin to change. Welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. SUBSCRIBE/RATE/REVIEW & SHARE our new podcast. FOLLOW Podcast: You will find a "Follow" button in the top right. This will enable the podcast software to alert you when a new episode launches each week. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/makes-sense-with-dr-jc-doornick/id1730954168 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1WHfKWDDReMtrGFz4kkZs9?si=003780ca147c4aec Podcast Affiliates: Kwik Learning: Many people ask me where I get all these topics, which I've been covering for almost 15 years. I have learned to read nearly four times faster and retain information 10 times better with Kwik Learning. Learn how to learn and earn with Jim Kwik. Get his program at a special discount here: https://jimkwik.com/dragon OUR SPONSORS: Operly - Take Back Control of Your Work Day and Get Rid of All Your AI Apps - Welcome to the new world of Time Freedom and Unlimited Scaling and Success with Operly -  https://go.getoperly.ai/video?ref=jean-claude-claude-d-2a95 Blue Blinds Bakery - Handcrafted with all-natural ingredients - www.blueblindsbakery.com 0:00:00 - 0:01:29: Cold Open and Podcast Intro 0:01:29 - 0:03:21: Meet Helen Urwin: Founder of Being Giant 0:03:21 - 0:06:04: What Being a Giant Actually Means 0:06:04 - 0:09:19: The Power of Staying Open and Curious 0:09:19 - 0:14:45: Ego vs Essence: Making Peace with Your Ego 0:14:45 - 0:19:00: Before You Can Grow: Facing Uncomfortable Truths 0:19:00 - 0:21:58: The Question That Unlocks Real Desire 0:21:58 - 0:24:52: Freedom 1: Partner to Potential, Not the Past 0:24:52 - 0:30:00: Declaring Desire Without Fear of Disappointment 0:30:00 - 0:34:44: Freedom 2: Being In Here, Not Out There 0:34:44 - 0:39:01: Freedom 3: The Known in the Unknown 0:39:01 - 0:42:49: Freedom 4: A Presence of Possibility 0:42:49 - 0:47:19: Freedom 5: A Voice in a World of Echoes 0:47:19 - 0:50:16: Freedom 6: Be All In for the Game 0:50:16 - 0:56:16: Freedom 7: Finding Flow Through a Cancer Diagnosis 0:56:16 - 1:02:00: Freedom 8: Being in Command 1:02:00 - 1:06:41: Freedom 9: Being Sovereign 1:06:41 - 1:10:09: The Giant Question and Where to Find Helen 1:10:09 - ending: Outro and How to Support the Show Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

The biggest breakthroughs rarely came from better strategies or greater capabilities. It came as a result of a shift in who the person was being. That insight ultimately gave rise to being giant, a framework built around the idea that the next level of your results requires the next level of you. Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you? That your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears and doubt, have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise. How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleepwalking mode and label it as life and reality.

Yeah, that ends here. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shock caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things, that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up, let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens.

Makes sense. Great morning humans, great morning world. I am Dr. J.C. Dornick, otherwise known as The Dragon. And I want to welcome you to another edition of the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. And I want to welcome you to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Today, we're going to talk about something that immediately made me go, hmm, and that's because we spent an enormous amount of our lives trying to get better at things. My guest today is Helen Althea Irwin, founder of Being Giant and a transformational facilitator

who has spent more than 30 years working with CEOs, founders, leadership teams from some of the world's biggest businesses and most iconic brands out there. After a decade at Mars Inc., Helen went on to work with leaders across more than 300 different brands, helping them navigate transformation, identity, purpose, and significant strategic change. So today, we're going to explore what it means to stop living from the past, uncover what's actually true about you and who you are, and perhaps unleash a much bigger version of yourself. Helen Irwin, welcome to the Dragons Layer.

First of all, thank you for everything that I've learned from you. I find myself, you know, the stuff that you have shared and taught me along the way, I've had so many opportunities to get mentored by you. That's what's so cool about you being on here right now. It's perfect for my audience. But I find myself using a lot of the language and concepts in terms that I've learned from you so freely that I almost think that I came up with them, you know? Yes.

You know, that's good. Yeah, that's a good sign. That means it's wired in. One of them is I frequently recognize things that no longer apply in my life or fit for purpose and things like that. So I just want to say thank you, you know, on behalf of the thousands and thousands of people that you've helped. And I'm so excited that we're getting this fresh new concept that has just evolved

through your systems. It's very exciting. So let's jump in. What does being a. giant actually mean and perhaps more importantly the way i like to look at it is is how do i know when i'm not being a giant yeah well we're diving straight in which is perfect so this language for me of being giant is the way i began to think about my growth in accessing more of me and again through many years this is over time what i realized was that you know when i was having a breakthrough

and I could access some part of me that maybe had been repressed or subdued, whatever language we want to use, because I'd made a decision in my life that, oh, that's not a good thing, and we put things away. And as I consciously went on this journey, I was amazed at what I found. I was like, oh, okay, we start to see ourselves through our conditioning through a very narrow lens. You know, we made decisions about ourselves a long way. You know, our conditioning, how we're brought up, how to survive, basically, and how to stay safe.

And then when we're through all of that and something bigger is calling us, then there's all of these aspects of who we are that begin to really help and support us. But that's what was amazing to me was that I felt that there was more to me than I knew. Each time it was this expansion. And then I began to think, well, how much else is there? What else is there? Who else is in there? Yeah. And the giant nature of that for me is that there was a seminar

was out actually where Marianne Williamson quote was spoken. Around the time, actually, I think the hook was written. The very famous one. Plain small does not serve the world. That really got me here. And it was, okay. I knew my corporate career was kind of coming to a close with what I was feeling was next. But with that, I kind of went at the time.

So what's the opposite of playing small? And it was this sense of, yes, playing big, but the giant word has kind of always been hovering for me. And I didn't know what it meant then. I'm 31 years old. I didn't have a clue what it meant. But it really stirred that kind of soul or essence within me. And of course, that planted some seats.

And life's journey took me through. I think the perfect curriculum to access these parts that maybe for whatever reason, it's not about making ourselves wrong for that either, because it's just life and we grow. And we're not a finished product ever. So that's the other thing too. I feel like we're always in process. I want to tap into something that my observation tells me that this is a superpower of

yours that you've had for quite some time. And I just want to kind of maybe validate it. It seems like you've gone through life. We talk a lot about it on this show about how powerful it is. to just remain open and curious. And maybe even find comfort in uncertainty. I don't know. I'm not sure.

It seems like when you say something like the word giant was kind of like telling me something, but I didn't know what it was. And you didn't rush it or anything until it was fit for prime. There's another one of your things, right? Is that something that you've always done or did you learn how to do that? Just to be open and curious, you know, get something and not be in such a rush to figure it out until it was ready. Yeah, I think the early development that I actually went through in my late 20s was a huge

part of that. Because when we say being giants, we are talking about being, not doing. And so I've gone through a lot of development that was fantastic as part of working for a big company. Some friends thought it was the weird and wonderful stuff at the time. But I was very curious about that because I felt that there was something calling me beyond my corporate career and I didn't really know what it was. And I was so fortunate to come across the development that I did because it went straight into the being conversation.

Right. And that for me was so life-changing because what it showed me was that whatever the circumstances are, who you choose to be in them is possible. Like you have a choice of who you choose to be in them. And you are far more resourceful than maybe you've been led to think. And I think with that, when I look back, I was 28 years old. And when I look back at that, I see how formative that was. Not to negate doing, by the way, because sometimes when I talk about being, people sometimes think I'm negating the doing. But for me, there's this deeper dimension of who we are, as well as what we do. And so I got this wonderful opportunity, really quite young, I think, to see this relationship that there's always more of us we can bring to what we do. And doing alone won't always cut it because you can develop skills.

But as you know, it's the capacity to see beyond something or the consciousness shift that makes us aware of something. It's not just, you know, tunnel vision do, do, do. And I think that when I look back, that was more pivotal than I ever would have imagined at the time. I knew it was life-changing. But where I've gone with that foundation in my life, it's been beautiful to have access to that for so long. It's so fascinating because I think converse to that, we live in a world where everybody is doing and becoming and never looking under the hood of who they already are. Right. And that's what I love about being giant is it doesn't say becoming a giant because it's saying you already are a giant.

You just didn't know it yet. And then I love the maturation process because it's like, yeah, let's let that sucker out. You make a distinction between two forces, you know, in our operating system operating within us, ego and essence. And I love that. I was always taught, you know, your ego can either, you know, bite you in the butt or it could be useful. But it's not something that we have to get rid of. So I love this concept. I love that you don't demonize the ego.

So I'd love you to just explain what is ego and what is essence? And talk a little bit about that partnership. Yeah. Well, again, being exposed to lots of different thoughts and perspectives on this, I was confused for quite some time about the role of this because there was conflicting points of view. And I think that I got to a point, and I was probably in my 40s by then. And I got to this point where I went, do you know what, I really do not want to be at war with myself.

I do not want to think of the part of me that takes care of me and keeps me safe as an enemy. And I really began to appreciate that, you know, it's there for a reason. And it runs the show for quite some time as we're growing up and going through life. But it's necessary. Literally, what I learned to understand was that it's helping me function in the world. It's really helping me function in the world. But there's this deeper aspect of me that seems to have an agenda, like wants to bring something to the world,

and will probably require a conversation with the ego that wants to keep you safe. But you can grow and develop in a way that that relationship matures. And it really does become a lovely relationship. Now, I'm not saying like you get to a point where it's all hunky dory, because we're human and we're going to have fears and we're going to have concerns and things happen. But I think this decision to just say I'm done with the enemy thought. I don't want to be in combat every day, right?

I just want to understand the role it plays. And so one of the things we say a lot is that when people say I am something, they aren't always, and I learned this, you know, over time, conscious of what they're saying I am to. Yeah? When we say I am, I believe that is the deeper aspect of who we are and the totality of who we are. But to say things like when people get profiled, JC, you know, in leadership, growth and development, and they turn a personality trait into who they are.

But they'll say, you know, I am a maximiser or I am an arranger or whatever strengths profile people have. And the language that we bring to that is you have a tendency to be great at that. You have a strength, have a strength in that. But who you are is not that. And so it's really for me this lovely relationship between I have an ego and we all have one, but it's not who we are? And if that is the case, then who are we? You know, that becomes the next question.

Well, who are we? And my answer always is, to be honest, because I don't come from that. academic realm. My answer is always, well, let's find out. Let's find out. Because nobody can tell us that. Nobody can say, this is who you are. We already have that within us. And nobody can tell us who, you know, who that is. And for me, that was the sort of breakthrough, you know, 10, 12 years after that this initial development kind of said, you know, I'm going to decide that I am not going to be at war with any aspect of who I am. And one of the lovely exercises that, you know, we do that really hits this home for people as opposed to the theory is that they write a love note

from the essence of who they are to their ego and just are so grateful for everything the ego has done. So the ego no longer feels alone. And essence is so big, it can really, like we imagine that, you know, that image of just really embracing ego. It's just a wonderful image. I always think of the horse, you know, tearing around the arena, but it comes and pops its head on the horse whisperer's shoulder and can have a hug. You know, the ego's always going to be busy, but, you know, let's show it some love is my perspective on that one. I think it would be impossible for someone to hear you give that exercise with the love letter and not smile. Yeah. You know, because it's like, I think about my ego and I'm like, it needs a hug. You know what I mean? It's not doing it. It's not doing

anything wrong. I actually trained it to do what it's doing. And I also love the idea of saying, like, who am I? Well, let's find out. I always like to add, this is from my book, I always like to add the three magic words that I learned from a great mentor. And that is to add at this time. At this time. Because like this work, you know, that we're going through right now is not like a one-shot deal, you know, because we're always evolving. It's so cool. So as you can see, I always, I always wear this hat that says, hmm, and, you know, this is my form of cognitive distancing, you know, and I just love to throw a hmm on everything. You know, my wife says, don't, hmm, me, but I always like to give myself permission to think. But sometimes it's automatically triggered. What hmm stands for is haven't made

up my mind yet. Right. And I give right myself permission. So before we jump into the nine freedoms, I want to kind of get underneath the entire thing first, because there's, there's steps before, if somebody is lucky enough to come across this podcast or know you or have some sort of an epiphany and then find you, that's all good and great. But people are at the end of this episode going to want to know like, well, where do I start and things? And that's probably where we'll end. So the idea of hmm is recognizing that there's got to be a moment in somebody's life where they say like, well, wait a minute. You know, maybe what I've believed isn't necessarily true. So what are some of the uncomfortable truths that people are going to have to be willing to kind of see, you know, before they actually begin growth?

What are, what are some of the things that they're going to have to acknowledge? Because the human brain is conditioned with cognitive bias, be able to like know something's not true, but believe it to be true anyway. So what has to happen before somebody starts to grow? So I think that in the world we're in today with a lot of access, to self-help and personal growth materials more than ever before. People have lots of ideas. There's theories. There's a lot of information, basically.

Real growth, for me, comes from something that occurs where there's something worth growing for. So for me, it's in life's experiences. I mean, I love to read. I love to listen to things and go on courses, and we'll always want that. I really have seen, though, over that time that I have been engaged with this, that there have been very few places to go for that constant development of myself. Not just the information, not just my skills, but like you say, you know, at this time, if we really are up to something in the world.

So whatever that is, a future we really desire, something that's worth growing for, then to me, that's the context. for growth. It really matters to grow because the person you are today is not the person who can make that happen. And so the minute, and this is why we start with partnering with potential versus the past, because I think, again, you know, we have life experiences and, you know, we make decisions about ourselves and then we think we can't do something. And it's just because we've been in a frame or an environment where we've believed that to be true. But I feel like what breaks us open or kind of interrupts that trance is something that you know you want. Yeah. You know, and it could be anything at all, but it's something that you know that you desire and it just wakes you up out of that trance or

that comfort zone or whatever we would like to call it. And again, we can't, you know, as cultures, say what that is for people. But. when it happens, where do you go? And for me, if somebody doesn't want to grow because it's not the right time, you know, they're in a phase in their life and these things aren't meaningful to them, then that's fair enough. That's absolutely fun. But it's for those people who are waking up to something more, where do we go? Because this is what I was looking for all those years and learned an enormous amount. But I really knew the difference between learning something and really growing. And that for me is the giant thought. Like, it's a good role. This is going to be a tough

question for you to answer because you've got such a wealth of knowledge. But I guess the scenario would be everybody's like comfortable saying like, I want, I need and things like that. But they haven't done that yet. They haven't made a decision. They haven't set their North Star. In your experience or at this time, what would you say is the most powerful question that you can ask somebody, just one question to put them in that place where their answer would be something that they truly, truly want and need. What is the question you'd ask them? So for me, I think there's a lot like you've used that language. People will say what they want. Right. But I think when we say, what does your soul desire? What does the deepest aspect of you hunger for? What are you yearning for?

like it goes deeper. The question goes deeper because we live in a society with a lot of temptation in many ways and, you know, material goods and, you know, lots of opportunity. And, you know, I almost remember when I came across this concept,

very new to me, not that long ago, actually, memetic desire. And I was like, wow, that is so prevalent for us all, right? Where is this coming from? You know, we see so many things in social media. We're exposed to so many lifestyles and things compared to, you know, when I was growing up, we weren't. But we are now. And it's like, but where is that coming from?

Is this coming from the ego that thinks you'll be, you know, a better person for it? Or is it something the essence of you really, really wants to bring to the world, really wants to bring to the world? Now, I'm not saying you don't go for the material things you want. I'm not saying you don't enjoy lovely things and all of that. But just be aware of the difference, yeah? Because people get trapped in some of that identity of stuff or get trapped by a job title or something that's external to them. And we all do it.

And this is why this relationship that you can develop with this sort of deeper aspect of who you are, you can enjoy all of these things, but you know it's not who you are. But there's usually something you want to bring, not take. For me, that's the beauty of those kind of deeper questions. It's interesting because we live in a world that is just so unconsciously following the herd and following the appropriate path without knowing that they are, that a good coach, a good question is really one that gives them permission to go to. deeper because going deeper is probably not something they're accustomed to. Like, oh, you want to know

what I actually want. Oh, well, that's a different story. Okay, so we have these nine freedoms, and I love that you have broken them down into three levels as well, because I realize that if you just went through the nine freedoms without doing that, you would, you know, if you don't know where you're going, you know, any road will take you there. I love that. I love the phases of, of them. So level one would be considered becoming a giant. So there's the word becoming. And Freedom One is, I love this. I mean, you can say this to anybody and they go, oh, I love that. So be a partner to potential, not the past. Tell us about this one. Yeah. And I was conscious of what you said earlier about becoming because the way we talk about becoming is that you're

letting go for the things that are in the way of you seeing it. As opposed to, I have. have to achieve all of these things to be it. It's all like, let these stuff go. It's kind of hiding all of that. It's like pruning and shedding as well. Absolutely. It really, really is. And I think that, you know, based on your last question as well about this, what we really

desire, it's all about orientation. So people aren't trained, typically, to have a forward orientation where our future that we desire is the context for our growth. Right? So when I was in my, you know, growing up in a corporate environment in my career, one of the things that we would hear a lot, and I didn't know what it meant at the time, but you would hear it a lot, which is, oh, that person's got a lot of potential. You would hear the potential word a lot. And I used to think, but where is it? Where does it come from? And so I talk about unleashing more of you. And therefore, when you have a future world, worth growing for, that's what unleashes more of you because there's more of you to come out. It's not more to achieve out here, even though there might be a project or a business or something worth growing for, but it's just bringing out more of you. And that's why you're partnering with potential, not who you've been in the past. Because that person isn't capable or has the

capacity to create that next thing. But having a context to grow into that person who's already there because you're bringing more of you out. That's what I love about that relationship. You know, even training to be a teacher years and years ago, which is a true vocation, but I always used to think about the true meaning of education bringing to bring out, not stuff in. So that stuck with me from, you know, late teens was this, oh, it's about what's inside that we want to bring out. But again, just seeds planted. So this is the context of using the word becoming and it's a perfect one for Freedom One is it's not like you're changing who you are. It's more about unveiling and bringing more of you to the table. So tell us

about Freedom One. So when you get in touch with what you really desire and you have that forward orientation, what will happen is all the things that need to kind of show themselves for your growth are going to show themselves, right? This is why sometimes people will set a goal and then be really surprised when things happen that's the opposite of what they want. It's quite a common thing. You know, people talk about is that, you know, set this and this has happened. And so for me, you create that context within which to grow. I think you say this as well. I'm sure I've heard you say this,

is that become the person who can create and receive that future. One of the tenets of our group is it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, which is when I read this, I was just like, oh, this is so delicious. Yeah. Yeah. We call this like,

you know, there's a core quality for each of the freedoms. And for me, this was about power. that we have the power of attention. And instead of looking at all of the things that maybe hasn't worked, because again, there's a relationship to failure that some people have and other people have a healthy relationship to things that have gone wrong.

But essentially, for me, it's life is busy. Circumstances are happening. And it's so easy to get caught up in those circumstances. And we really need that intention to look ahead literally I'll do this in a room with people's like let's just lift ourselves up and let's turn and look in that direction of what it is that we want. Not saying what's going on today is irrelevant, but that's today. And today was created by what's gone before. And so, you know, you'll know about the kind of structural tension of setting ourselves up for something. And it does cause a bit of tension because we're not there yet.

But we really want that pull to grow. And I think sometimes what stops people doing that is that, and I've seen it in coaching a lot, is that people sometimes think, I'm not going to say it because I'm disappointed if it won't happen. Right? So there's this reluctance to kind of declare something because what if it doesn't happen? And one of the things that really helped me was when a mentor said to me, because I can remember kind of being in a similar place, you know, it may or may not happen, but is it a desire?

Can you say I desire it without having it to happen? Can you at least be honest about the desire? And for me, that was magical because we put so many limits on what we think we're capable of. And that for me was that breakthrough to say, I'm just going to be honest about what I really desire. and find a way to grow, find a way to make it happen. And it opens up rather than close things down. But I do find that fear of disappointment is one of the things we have to tackle right at the beginning.

Because we might have wanted things in the past and they haven't happened for whatever reason. So when you say partner to potential, not the past, you know, there's so many reasons that, you know, a lot of the things that I've experienced in the past, you know, a lot of the things that I've experienced in the past, past had value, but they no longer apply right now like you've taught us. So what does it mean to partner with potential? Potential is unlimited, you know, but if you connect that unlimited nature of potential to, you know, goal that you've set, this big burning desire that you've set, so what is it about letting go of the past and just partnering with something else? So for me, I think there's this, there's different ways I've heard this relationship to the past play out. And what seems to work for me in terms of really seeing people grow is that have you been

informed and learned from the past rather than have unresolved things in the past? Because if we think, whether it's we call it our unconscious mind, our ego, that aspect of us that wants to keep us safe, if this unreasonable, if this unreasonable, resolved issues or things that we haven't really understood the reason they happened or what we've learned from them, there's often this tug for like, we haven't freed up capacity, you know. And for me, fear is so natural. Right. Not to be condemned, but it's to be understood. And people will have fears about so many things. And it's, well, what's happened in the past where you made a decision about yourself that that wasn't available to you. Now, are you still that person? No.

Okay. How did it inform you for what's next? And so it is this inquiry. And for me, I think we integrate the learnings and that can feel like we're letting go because we've integrated it into the person. We're more resourceful. We're more informed than we were back then. And it's all of what's gone before can set us up for what's next. Everything that's gone before. Everything that's gone before can set us up for what's next. Okay, so before we go on further with the freedoms, what made you decide to create that structure of the nine freedoms? So that's a really, really good question because I think over the years, there were so many things that, you know, I had learned and had used and frameworks and tools. And, you know, I'm looking ahead and I'm

creating this future of growing a million giants, as we now would say. And what I realized was that there are things that these deeper principles, universal wisdom really, that always work no matter what. It's just kind of a truth, a human truth. And as I sifted and sorted through, over a couple of years, actually, all the different things. And saw that there were things that came and went, you know, tools and frameworks. And then there was these deeper kind of principles that always worked. So, you know, helping people look to the future, that orientation. And, you know, with the first three freedoms that stabilize us in life, just realizing that helping people just really stabilize themselves was important. So the second freedom about being in here, not out there,

was to realize that stuff is happening all the time out of the year. Crazy stuff a lot of the time, but my experience of it is being created inside. I love that. And so just realizing that distinction was that, and certainly in a lot of the leadership conversations I'm in, that it was like, this stuff is happening, absolutely is happening. And what are you making of it?

Because that person isn't in drama. If you could be in drama, but the other person isn't. So what's the difference? Because it's the same situation. And then it just helps us realize that we're not saying anything could happen out here

and it doesn't matter. We're not saying that. What we're saying is whatever's going on on the outside, we create the experience of it on the inside. And if we know that, we can take responsibility for that. And working with leaders over so long, realizing that when they aren't being resourceful,

which is how I typically describe it. When they're not being particularly resourceful, they're not looking at what they want and they're not seeing what they're creating. And if that can happen, which is universal, so many schools have thought, have talked about this over, you know, millennia, but it's so foundational.

And it's kind of, let's just get that in place first before we do anything fancy, you know, other stuff that might sound a bit sexy. But let's just get. these two things in place first, because then you realize, literally, you have a choice to look that way, and you have a choice to look that way. And those first two for me is the beautiful thing to see the difference it makes. You know, a leader's career or our lives in general. It's just so universal. What's interesting about this is that these are not telling people how they should be or how

they should act, they're more so saying, like, what about this? Because what you just said just really, really sunk in when you said, it's when we know that, we know of this, that we can, which means it's up to you, take responsibility for it. I just think that's so beautiful because it puts the responsibility, the locus of control is always on the individual. Somebody could go through your course and then, you know, like see if it worked, you know, But it really is like an opportunity for people to make some radical decisions. And I love that because if it wasn't that way, a lot of courses will teach people things and say, well, now you know this. You're ready for the next step.

But this is like, these are very opportunistic, these freedoms. You know, I love that. Love it. Yeah. So I think what you actually said is events happen outside you, experience happens inside you. So there's the choice. Now you know it. So the third of being a giant or of becoming a giant is the first. Yeah, partnering with potential or be a partner to potential. And then really turning attention inside, being here, not out there.

Right. And so that's so stabilizing. When you know you can direct that power that you have and you take responsibility for the experience, then the third and final one, like in this founding, for me. Given the uncertainty that leaders deal with, because obviously this is where it came from, but it's anyone. Be the known and the unknown was the language that came because people are, what about this, what about this, what about that? Well, there's a lot we don't know for sure.

What do we know? What do we know? Now, people will have different answers for that because it's about how in touch with our authenticity, like that essence of who we are. Some people have a very, deep knowledge of that. And other people will just start to get a sense of, well, I know this is important to me. And I know I would like this. And I know I want to create this. So we see what we do

know and we trust. We have an anchor point as opposed to feeling, you know, people describe it like, you know, on the surface of the sea or feel a bit of drift. You know, what's our anchor point? and its purpose, its values, it's your authenticity, it's what really matters to you. No matter what, no external situation is going to change that for where you are today. And to your point, at this time, that could evolve and grow, but at this time, that's the known and the unknown. Well, one of the things that I like to claim that I know for certain is that I don't know. It's a wonderful thing. You know, I mean, this is something that I've been playing with for a long time is just to revel in uncertainty.

And what I realize when I allow myself to admit what I don't know is that I know very little, but I do know that I know that. You know? And it kind of just opens up this space for so much experience and learning. And maybe that's one of the triggers for that superpower of being open and curious. You know, people say, ask me questions as if I had definitive answers all the time. And I just love to say, I don't know. I'm not sure yet. I will let you know when I know.

Yeah. You know, because I know that's important to you. I know that. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And it's a bit like, for me, the equivalent is let's find out. Let's find out. Or maybe not.

Yeah. It's like, well, what happens if we do this? Well, let's find out. Yeah. So again, it's, but it's having the same. stability of knowing you're responsible for your experience and knowing that you can direct your attention. You have some stable, you've got a stable foundation. And one of the things, because I obviously facilitate groups, leadership groups, and one of the things I heard in my training,

which again was really powerful for me was stable people, stabilise people. And I thought as a facilitator, that's really what we're learning. the person in the room, he was helping the group process something or create something or go on a journey together to, you know, resolve something or, you know, create a vision, a strategy, whatever it might be. And there's a lot happening in that scenario. And you are the person in the room to help them. So where do you put your attention? What are you taking responsibility for? And what do you know in the room so that you can be the best person to guide the process? and I'll trust the process that we run, but it gives space for people to grow and think and develop.

So I know the process, but I never know what's going to happen in it. And it was these freedoms. So your question around where did they come from, I feel really, really proud in a way that this is from experience and it's wisdom. And it's not, it's not academic in that sense. However, I have been trained in so many things that I thank that world for. But in terms of making it accessible to people, it's really important to me, in language that people can really get, just like, you know, I know that's important to you as well. Helen Irwin is a bit of a genius.

I'm not sure she's aware of that, or you can receive that. Well, this is perfect because, you know, the idea of walking into a room as a giant, because we just talked about level one of becoming a giant. Let's move to the next three freedoms and the idea of playing as a giant. So take us through that process, which would be four, five, six. Yeah, four, five and six, yeah. So with playing giant, we've got our foundation. And so just like I explained there and use that example, you're out in the world.

And you are a presence. You know, this is the difference between leaders as performers. And for those of us who need to show up a certain way, want to show up a certain way because of what we're up to, I always find it amazing what happens in a leader's presence, anyone's presence, but certainly in the world I'm working in mainly. And I just used to see it as, are we showing up as a presence of possibility?

Or are we showing up in a way that does the opposite? And again, people have different personalities. They've had different, you know, training and so on. And I just feel like this kind of goes, I think you mentioned this earlier, like underneath all of that. It's like, does this matter to you to show up enough to be a presence of possibility? And so one of the questions we ask in the training is what's possible in your presence? Yep. And people usually say what do you mean?

Because it's a very strange question, you know. But again, you know, building on the previous three freedoms, it's like, well, how do you want to show up in the world? What do you want to make possible because you're in the room? You know? And again, it's about being, not doing. So sometimes it takes people a little while to go there. But essentially, it clicks in because it's, we're calling forth qualities in ourselves.

Again, this bringing out. We're bringing forth these qualities that we all have. But it's qualities that make things possible. And it creates a really good atmosphere and a really good vibe in the room or in the the conversation. And often people aren't thinking about how they're showing up. It's interesting for me to look at my show, especially when I have a guest like that. I mean, it's one thing for me to show up as, you know, a presence of possibility. But it's interesting for me to look at my show because we have some extraordinary

conversations in here that we never really know where they're going to go. But there's tons of potential and possibilities, you know, anything's possible. And also the idea of looking at somebody that I look at and I, and I, I consider a leader, you know, an extraordinary visionary and a leader asking myself, you know, what is it that I feel in their presence? And I love, you know, possibility. Yeah. Because I wouldn't look at somebody that didn't have that and consider them a leader. It was like, I would look at them as like a teller or a forcer or something like that. Super super cool. And I think that's a really important point because I think in leadership development, there's been so much focused like the old playbook

was what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Like, do you have the answer. What are you going to do? And actually, the greatest leaders create space around them for people to work things out or have conversations like you say that wouldn't happen otherwise. And that's a new playbook, I find. The old one used to be, you have got to have the answer. And, you know, and I've seen leadership development frameworks change over many years. Still not really addressing being in the way that I would certainly like to see, hence we're doing, being giant. But, you know, for me, it's just that we've been so unaware of being as opposed to do, do, do. It doesn't negate the doing, but who you're being makes the doing possible. Be do have, you know, it can't happen the other way. I just love that.

So moving along, freedom number five, be a voice in a world of echoes. I love this one. I talk a lot about how much noise there is in the world. Tell us about this one. So this one is you're showing up as a possibility. You know, you're showing up as this presence. And then what's your message to the world? What is your unique voice bringing to the world? Again, going inside and realizing what's there to bring out as opposed to, you know,

I'm not saying you don't learn from other people, but you have a unique way of experience. something, a unique way of seeing something that you want to share. It's from you because there's only one of you. One else is going to see things the way you do. And so if you're up to something, there's usually something that matters to you that you would like to communicate. And it's in alignment with something that's deeply true. To be honest, it's not frameworks in an academic theoretical sense. It's like a gift to bring to the world. It's something inside you that you want to bring.

Mine would be BG, being giant. You know, it's that. And it's a distinctive because it's yours, because you're not trying to be like anybody else. And you really are in alignment. And it's the way that you bring. And again, from a spiritual perspective on this as well,

because when we get into playing giant and we're talking about really bringing us to the world, we use different language. We have different. exercises that allow us to go there. And the way I think about it now is how are you bringing your light to the world? And people are amazed what comes out, you know, in journaling exercises or, you know, if I had no fear, what would I say to people?

Like, what do I want people to really know and understand? And the big question here is very much about what do you want for people rather than from people? What would I love you to know? Like what would I love you to feel? Or how would I like you to experience life or whatever your gift is? And, you know, we have a lot of fear around that sharing. And I know I've grown through many years to get to this point of sharing in this way and saying these are the nine freedoms I see.

Because a lot of the time we're conditioned. What will people think? What if people don't like it? These are all very normal fears. Yeah. But then if we're growing, because there's something worth growing for, we'll grow beyond that. And I think in the spirit of coming out with lots of power questions today, you know, one that really helped me with that was I was asked the question when I was going through, you know,

this fear of visibility, because I've been behind the scenes for a very long time. And realizing what was involved, and a very dear friend of mine said, Helen, just think about it. What would you be quite happy to be ridiculed for? And I went, you know what? I would love that. I would love to be asked that question. I'm happy to be ridiculed for dot, dot, dot.

And it was just one of those changes of frame that it's going to come when we're out there very visible because, you know, anything that we are into is not for everyone. You know, in building brands, we know that, you know, we're not for everyone. But it is really knowing that you are for someone. one. And if other people don't see the value of that, that's okay. But I mean, that was a long journey for me. I know I'm saying a short amount of time. But I really, and I think this one for me, it's right in the middle of the freedoms because it's number five. This is the pivot point. Yeah. This is when, oh, I can be a presence of possibility in the world, but actually when your

voice comes into it, the game changes. And that for me is when you are going from this internal world really out there, playing your game out there in the world. Unbelievable how powerful questions can be at the right time, you know. And I want everybody to understand that what we're going through right now, you're probably saying, oh, my God, all this. This is just a scratch on the surface of the work that she does. So if something is really speaking to you, you know, go to the next level with this. So this leads perfectly to close out playing.

Number six, be all in for the game. So this has always been one of my, you know, J.C. sayings like, I'm all in. You know, everybody gets excited. Come on, let's go. You know, like Ludo from Animal House and everybody chases you out of the house. One of the greatest quotes that I ever heard from one of my mentors is that there's nothing more powerful than a made-up mind.

Yes. And then he would say, so make up your mind. He had a southern accent. So tell us about this. Be all in for the game. So I think that whether people are building a business, whether they are, they've got a project, you know, a lot of not-for-profit charity, you know, big, big things that people are up to. Do we see it as a game that we can really enjoy playing?

And so when we say to people, so what's the game you want to play? Your game, you're designing it. You get to decide what the rules are. You get to decide what success looks like. Because then you begin to think, okay, this is my gig, right? You've got your voice, you've got the message. But what's the form? So you begin to see the form it's going to take.

And for me, this be all in for the game is just you've got your game that you are playing and you are all in. So mine, for example, which surprised me, just really playing, literally playing with ideas. But I just kind of went, you know, I think it's a game to grow a million giants. Now, do I know the business structure? for that? No. Do I know how long that will take? No. But is it a game I'm going to go all in on?

And for me, sometimes people want the certainty of the way it's going to happen as opposed to I'm in and we'll find out to make it happen. And for me that really is the excitement now of declaring that, being all in on that. And we all

have an equivalent when there's something that we're up to in the world. But we're seeing it as a game that's hours to play. It's hours to play. And it can just give you energy and a perspective that sometimes when you get into planning and the usual stuff, you know, that energy can leave us, can't it? That's so powerful. You know, I'm realizing right now that like to truly make a decision to be all in with something requires a lot of not knowing, you know, because if you're going to wait for this moment where

you're going to know everything to go all in, you know, you might as well go outside and try to shovel fog, you know, or nail some jello to the ceiling. And the funny thing about being all in and making that decision is you may not ever know everything even when you get there, you know. And that's when you'll realize how silly it was when people are waiting. But I understand why people wait. I spent quite a bit of my life waiting for everything to be perfect. Okay. So that puts a close. on the second level, you know, so we just, you know, we went from becoming to playing, and now we're going to move into living. So before we get into freedom number seven, which is be in flow, which I love this topic, what does it mean to live this? So I think what's interesting for me in how I saw my growth and the growth that I'm, obviously, alongside others as they're moving, is that you begin to practice. in one arena and then life to me is the ultimate arena. So I might be playing giant in my business,

but am I living giant in the rest of my life? Yes, which is a very common thing that people will have areas they excel in. And we're not saying there's a prescription for life. But what we're saying is when it becomes so much a part of you, you are who you are in all areas of your life. and obviously because of my sort of clients and the work that I've done, it has been in a leadership arena. But then as people grow and evolve, they're like,

and what about the rest of my life? And so we're opening up to the flow of life, being the flow. And this for me was, you know, such a big step to make as, you know, creating the freedoms, defining them rather, because I was like, is this going to be? included in the system because we're going into the flow of life. And then I realized that it had to be because of my life experiences where I had grown the most. This wasn't just a leadership pursuit. You know, we have the phrase, don't we? How do we lead our life? But, you know,

all of life. And I think this being the flow for me was when things don't go the way you want, when we're blindsided by things, when it's very easy to. to think something should not be happening. You know, and that's life. And for me, I realize that there is a tendency for all of us to resist what's happening rather than to go with what's happening. And for myself, a cancer diagnosis, you know, other life events where literally it's big stuff.

And it's not about staying in the resistance to life. what life is bringing, it's about receiving the gifts that are within it. And that was a much bigger topic than let's do a strategic plan on the business. But I felt that if we're really going to be giant and like we said right at the beginning, claim these aspects of ourselves, bring more of us to the world. Life is the greatest teacher. And it's when we resist. And I've been humbled by many, by very very very very very very.

to realize as well that the growth that has come from them by holding them in that way is a really beautiful thing. Yeah. I've heard somebody say, life is the greatest teacher, but life doesn't provide a syllabus. No. You know, it's so funny. So I love that this comes right after being all in because, you know, it was almost like a precursor for this. A lot of times people mistake flow with ease.

Yes. And that's not what we're talking about. It's more about embracing it all. And that goes back to the word responsibility before. So that's beautiful, beautiful. And sometimes being in flow is difficult. I think this is so important to make that distinction because, you know, flow means different things in different schools of thought.

But people, there's a typical kind of interpretation of ease. And, you know, obviously flow in the sporting sense. or being in the zone and so on, of course, which are all very, very valid things. This, for me, was very much about the life energy that's flowing. Right. And the way life is what life is bringing me. And I think that the minute I was aware of this, and what if this, it doesn't mean it's pleasant, you know, but what if this was the perfect thing right now?

Yeah. In a way that I would years ago never have thought like that. But just began to really open up to what can be received and embraced. And it does make a difference because, but we're not saying anything goes. You know, sometimes think like people go with the flow. Anything goes. No. It's receiving what life is bringing us.

Right. Yeah. I mean, this is, dare I say, saving my life, you know, this perspective right now. You know, the way I explained it to somebody, and I'm talking about my cancer, you know, story, is that for whatever reason, you know, I've already made my decision just like water in a river where I'm going. And the cancer is just like a boulder that's dropped into the river. You know, you'll notice that water never like stops to negotiate and argue with boulders, right? We're already going that way. But what's interesting about what you're talking about is it's also saying,

But for whatever reason, this cancer came into my flow, my story, and I find myself not wanting to waste it. Yeah. You know, that's a whole other level of embracing. It is. And being in the flow is saying, like, this sucks, right? It's not ease, you know, just like the snowboarder going off a cliff and landing in perfectly fresh powder. So I find myself saying, like, I'm not going to just try to bypass it. I'm going to embrace it and use it.

I love it. And that moves us into being in command. It does. So this is really, what did this come to you in a dream or something? I mean, like, I know that this has been like coming through the years, but like, how did you like all of a sudden put all this together? What is the process of coming up with the nine freedoms here? It's a great question because I think that the short answer to that one would be that literally the years and years and years. of practice of working with brand teams and putting language to ideas and visions and values.

And that was really helpful to say, this is what I'm feeling. This is, this is kind of the universal wisdom that we're circling around here. What are we going to call it? You know, or what's the intention of this piece? And without that, I'm not quite sure, you know, where we would be with the distinctions. but I just felt it was very much an energetic experience of, especially in living, because it's kind of beyond words in many ways, right? Oh, yeah.

And so there was this energy of like things moving, but then there was you being able to sort of say how it goes at the same time. And so this sense of life is bringing me, what it's bringing me, and I get to choose how I move through it. I'm in command of that. Right. And that's only possible when you have understood the foundational freedoms and you realize that you are responsible for how you're experiencing what's happening.

And like you say, it can suck. It can feel really bad. Like, you know, sort of we can be on our knees sometimes with what's happening in life. And somewhere you can just know, have the presence of me. mind to know, you get to choose how you move through it. Right. That's huge. It's massive.

It could be one of the most massive things a human could do in this crazy world right now. So tell us about being in command. So being in command is what's the intention? And like I say, you get to choose. So whatever's happening, and I mean, obviously you're in your situation right now with your treatment. And, you know, Ashley, my partner is recovering from Brue. brain surgery.

You know, this is, and I'm using the big stuff in life to kind of bring this to life, is that with this understanding, you can decide ahead of time how you will be about it, what you want to experience from it, how you choose to be in relationship to it, because you are in command of yourself. Now, that doesn't mean you've got it all together and you're completely composed and nothing bothers you. Quite the reverse. You're feeling it all. You're receiving it and you say, I'm still going to show up this way. I'm still going to navigate this this way. And you bring some intentionality to something that can easily feel really out of control, really out of control.

Napoleon Hill used to speak about the idea of, he used to, rather than set a goal as like a destination or the acquisition of something, he used to set the goal of who he was becoming. And I just love that idea. So once you've already made that decision of who you're becoming, it doesn't matter the brain surgery, the kidney cancer, the bolder. I mean, changes things and it makes things more interesting. And you say, oh, okay, I didn't know that I was going to have this as well, but I'm still on my way to be coming. I love that. So I love the context that you use. of being in command. And the strong word there is intention.

Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. And I think, and again, it's from life experience because with the various, you know, life events was to say, it's not kind of despite this. It is in some ways, despite this happening, I am showing up this way.

But you're receiving the gifts of the experience and you are in command of how you move forward from there. There was a workshop I was in quite a while ago. when I was going through my treatment. And the gentleman who was running the session had had a lot of health issues. And it was okay. He got through them.

But he said something I thought was very profound, which really helped me. And he said, please, and he's talking to the group, please don't deify the condition, but please receive the gifts from it. And so in talking with people in the break and having a cup of coffee afterwards, there was this sense

that literally it was, I'm receiving what life is bringing me and I'm learning from it and I'm growing from it and I'm still in command of me. And it was that moment. I think maybe when you ask me about some of the language, it's been these experiences and interactions that have, yes, with the experience to language things, but it's been based on very real moments. How I'm being with it. I love that. So I love that in nine, you use one of my favorite words, and that's sovereign. Yeah. I think a lot of people are not sure what that means.

And it kind of like reminds me of, you know, the highest form of self-reflection is, you know, being in service and things like this. So tell us about Freedom Nine, our final one to close it out, being sovereign. Yeah. So for me, it is a big word. I've worked with archetypes for a very long time with them, you know, building brands and helping leaders. So this one for me was the point at which the authority that you live your life by is yours. And so there's been a transfer from the beginning of the process of learning and acting on these freedoms to the point where there's been a transfer of authority that's gone from X. external to internal. And there's been a transformation in how you see yourself from being an effect

to really being at cause of your life. And so you have a future worth growing for. You are taking responsibility for your experience and you know what you know. You've got that stable foundation. And so it really, as we walk through them again, it's all of them together because you are showing up in that way, presence of possibility in the world. You know your message. You're playing your game. You're all in. And as best you can, life is bringing things to you. And you're still intentional, no matter what. And so I always see being sovereign is a bit like holding the position, not in rank, of course, in terms of the way that can be used. But just as in, this is who I am, this is who I'm for, This is how I'm living my life.

This is what I'm bringing to the world. And it's like you own it because you really are. This is the one and I'm still working on this one, right? This is the one where a lot of that egoic need is disappearing, right? And we always can grow into it even more and more. But we get more glimpses of it, I think, is the way I would describe us. You know, we get the glimpse of it. Yeah, you know, I know this about myself.

or, you know, I will not tolerate that anymore, or whatever those things are, but it's our own source of authority. And that's huge. I think one of the biggest problems or challenges we have is that most people have skipped freedoms one through eight and gone right to nine and decided with their ego, unknowingly, that they're sovereign. And they've made up their mind, you know, it's like, I love the fact, you know, You didn't use the word, but she refers to this whole process as a maturation process.

I love that. I love the idea of growing up as yourself, as who you're being. The idea of, this is a question that popped up when I was learning about this. The idea of being in service to others, can service actually be another hiding place for the ego? Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting. It was for me for many years. Yeah, yeah. I think the difference, I think, with Freedom Nine, when you've made many decisions about who you are, who you're for,

what your gifts are, what you're bringing to the world, which, you know, takes time. I think the biggest distinction for me about that in terms of giving what you are here to give from a place of pure service versus giving to get something is the degree of compulsion you feel. So for me, this desire to give a system of development and share what's possible, knowing that those who really resonate with it are the ones that this is for, as opposed to me having to run around the planet trying to fix things. And I think that for me, that's been a very felt sense of, you know, coming out my first personal growth seminar outside of a course.

setting, you know, that I invested in myself, feeling like, you know, I was going to change the world and really fired up. But like, I would be the person that did it rather than just relaxing into it and realizing what we're here to give. And that's our form of sovereignty, rather than looking good, all of the things that sometimes come. What do other people think of me? This is what you think of you at this point. It's what you think of you. So I call this the giant question as we come to a close. And this is kind of like a service to all of the listeners.

There's many, many people that are going to be watching this, listening to this. Maybe somebody referred them to it. And they're like overwhelmed with all of this stuff. So, you know, first of all, this is not, you have not really gone through it. You've just had like the syllabus version of it. So, you know, there's going to be many, many opportunities. in the description and such to reach out to Helen and do this the right way. You know, if you've never had the opportunity of working in some context with Helen Irwin, you know,

you're missing a very, very fun destination. But for that person that is, you know, asking themselves right now, like, well, what's next? The way I'd love you to answer this is, what's the one question that you'd want that person that's asking, like, what do I do first? What do I do next? What's the one question you'd want that person to sit with today? The one question for me where it all begins is what is worth growing for? There's a lot of things that you might want, but what is that thing, something that's really worth growing for, that calls to you in a much deeper way, because we all need a context to grow.

We can hear these ideas of the freedoms and, you know, be interested in some of the questions and distinctions along the way. But for our life, what we're trading our life energy for, it's very much about what is really for you worth growing for. And allow yourself to go to the deeper soul place to answer that question. Helen, what are you most excited about right now that you want to share with people? How can people, I mean, this has been extraordinary. I feel like for the first time in all the years of podcasting, I'm going to send all the listeners of Bill for all of your time.

But what should we direct people to learn more about this and potentially experience it? Yeah. Well, thank you for that because we're right at the beginning. And I'm stepping out publicly and thank you for this opportunity and the opportunity to share in the conversation. So we're right at the beginning, but there are three places. really, obviously a group of us on this journey together. And so from never being on social media in my life, we are on Instagram as being giant. Congratulations. Are starting a YouTube channel being giant. I think it's being giant world for the YouTube channel. And then also imminently, I am on substack. I love substack. Yeah. We have a very big

substack following. That's great. Oh, great. Helen Althea Owen and the publication will be unleashing more of you. And we're going to see some writing from you. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Thanks so much for your mentorship, your friendship, and for, you know, gracing us with this just extraordinary information. And I hope everybody takes action on it. Yeah. Well, thank you once again. But, you know, this is my first, first stop, and I'll remember it forever. Thanks so much. This is Helen, and this podcast makes sense. That's it for today. To support the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, be sure to subscribe, like, and share, as well as follow the Make Sense substack for free daily quotes, live streams, and blogs.

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