Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - How to Stay Relevant When the World Changes Fast with James Orsini - E-177

Starting point is 00:00:11 Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you? That your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into that default sleepwalking mode and label it as life and reality. Yeah, that ends here. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and start thinking. Step back into that role as the shock caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things, that the things that you look at begin to change.

Starting point is 00:00:52 So let's wake up. Let's rise up. And let's make sense of why and how shift happens. Makes sense. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, Mr. James Orsini. I also call what you have just entered, the Dragonslayer. So welcome. That sounds great. Thank you. Good to be here. I always start off as a way of getting people caught up.

Starting point is 00:01:21 You know, in the introduction, I've mentioned all of the wonderful things that you've done, and we're going to get into some of that. But my first question is, what is it like to be James Orsini these days? You know, it's a good life. I have a beautiful family that I love spending time with. I've got some great friends, have had, and continue to have a great career. It was funny because I was on a call right before this. And I said, you know, I'm in touch with every boss I've ever had. And the guy was like, really? And I said, yeah, I said, and if you think about it, I had to quit everyone to go on to the next role that I had.

Starting point is 00:01:56 I've been fortunate enough to do it in such a way that everybody feels good about it and, you know, still there to help whenever they need. In fact, my first boss and mentor will actually be a guest at my daughter's wedding on August 1st. Wow. 40 plus years with this guy. That says a lot about you. It's funny that you say that, and it encompasses a chapter of my book, but my first mentor, his name's Dr. Larry Markson, and that whole story is really funny. But, you know, he's in his mid to late 80s now, but this is a guy that I speak to very frequently.

Starting point is 00:02:32 If I called him right now, he would call me back within five minutes. And I just, you know, all I do is I just call them up and I thank him so much. But what's interesting about what you just said is there's this general consciousness that, you know, you're supposed to like stick with the same people and the same company. I don't know who made that up, but it's, it makes sense that we evolve and we move on to the next thing. So that's great, great to hear you say that. Yeah, especially if, you know, you feel it's in your growth path, you know, not like, hey, I'm going to do exactly. what I was doing here, right over there and now for your competitor.

Starting point is 00:03:09 You know, I think for me, it was a lot of zig and zagging throughout my career. And everyone that I was with understood why I was doing the next thing that I was doing and supported my growth. Not part of my set questions, but you just triggered this in my brain. How do you know when it's time to move to the next step? You know, I like leaving when people are throwing rose petals and not rocks. Every time that I've left, I was really at the height of my game in the particular environment that I was in. There was never really a reason to leave.

Starting point is 00:03:47 But the advice and counsel that I give to students and everything, it's okay to take a call. Always take a call. You know, not that I'm looking to leave or have myself out there or I'm on a job board or anything like that. but it always helps to listen. And there were times where I listened, didn't take the role, and put somebody I knew in the role. You know,

Starting point is 00:04:10 it was so funny because in that mentor situation that I just mentioned to you, he had lost his role in the company that we were in. He was on the sideline. I got a call from a role, and then I called him up, I said, listen, this role is beneath you, but the guy that's above is pretty much my peer,

Starting point is 00:04:27 so I'd be kind of stuck. Right. If you take the job, you will quickly outshine the guy above. And I'm relatively certain they're going to put you in that role. And that's exactly how it played out and why, you know, we continue to be friends and colleagues all these years later. His most successful role was a role that they called me for.

Starting point is 00:04:50 What I love about that, and it kind of makes me want to, like, apply for a job to work for you because it would indicate that you as a mentor or a boss would be. probably be trying to raise me up to leave, you know, like we would a child. I would assume that that's part of what you try to do with the people that you mentor is. Absolutely. And then I support them for success, you know, in their next lifestyle. So, you know, I ran a company for Gary called the Sasha Group, and we had seven really senior leaders, all but two have left now and are outside of Gary's hallways. And I do what I can to position every one of them to be successful. But I did learn a lot about leadership and about empathy and kind candor and all that from

Starting point is 00:05:40 being close to Gary for so many years. You just made me realize that I got to set a new goal that one day people will refer to me as just JC and everyone will know who I am. Gary, you know, Gary. You know, Gary. So like share. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to be like a shack or a Gary. I want to talk about what I find so fascinating. You know, I had the opportunity to hear you speak at CreativeCon. And ever since then, I've kind of been stalking you a little bit and learning more about you because you're somebody that has so much experience and you've, you know, you're such a powerful source of knowledge, almost like a historian or like a Somalié of business and all these things that you've been through. So I want to talk a little bit about the speed of change right now.

Starting point is 00:06:24 You know, I'm going to, we're going to try to make this a little bit of an advisement from the great James Orsini. So you've already survived multiple business revolutions. You know, it's unbelievable what you've been through and grown through as well. Does the AI era, which is everybody's topic right now, I find the human behavior is more fascinating than ever, does the AI era feel fundamentally different to you or from your experience, is it just another version of managing rapid? change. It feels painstakingly similar to me as the dot-com implosion in 2000, 2001. Okay. I remember reading a prospectus for a company. And in the prospectus, it said, we do not know how to make profit. If we do make profits, we will not sustain profits. And that was a company that I peoed at 11 and

Starting point is 00:07:19 closed at 121. Wow. And I remember going to a friend of mine at Merrill Lynch. I'm saying, Look, I read all these books about basic, New York State CPA, I understand finance. How can you not make profit? I said, what are you guys doing? And he said, James, we're rewarding them for taking up the white space, okay, because we don't understand this whole internet thing, and we're just going to reward anybody who plays in it. And I see this painstakingly similar approach in this AI. If you just mention AI, if you play in AI, you're going to be rewarded.

Starting point is 00:07:48 And let's look back on the dot-com era, other than, you know, price line and eBay, say most of them imploded because they didn't have a business model. This is what I kind of see and feel around this whole AI thing. A great term that I learned earlier this week. Without a human in the loop, you have to be really, really cautious on what it is. I mean, you heard me talk about it at the conference where I said, I'm just waiting to see what's the growth from AI because at this moment, I see, you know, it's about cost savings.

Starting point is 00:08:19 It's about efficiency. It's about speed. But I haven't seen many examples of, and here's how we're going to grow. Right. You know, you can't cut your weight of growth. It's oxymoronic. Yeah, isn't that funny? So just in your observation right now, how does somebody stay relevant in this AI right now?

Starting point is 00:08:40 I mean, my observation is that everybody is kind of like, almost like a stampede, like a worried stampede. I see that everybody is trying to like learn everything they can about how to use AI. And when you think about a topic that you talk about a lot about future-proofing your career, what human skills in this relevance topic, what human skills become more valuable as AI starts to progress? You know, because Jim Quick, as you got to meet him at that event, too, he's launching a genius campaign right now all about human intelligence. So what human skills are more important than ever right now? I think curiosity. I think the willingness to learn.

Starting point is 00:09:22 Don't be an ostrich bearing your head in the sand and hope that it just passes you by. Be aware. But day in the middle, this is kind of what some of the problem is with our country. We hang on the fringes of the extremes all the time. I saw an article recently that said, you know, IBM had stopped hiring some juniors. And then they quickly realized, wait a second, we're not going to have any managers five years from now. If all of our entry level work is done by AI, there's going to be nobody to promote. to be a manager. So, you know, staying curious, one of those seven leaders that I mentioned to you

Starting point is 00:09:59 that left the Sasha group now, he has done some cracking up the code of AI and it's worked personally for him. He started some smaller businesses using AI as a support. He put in himself a diet and a regiment lost 45 pounds using AI as a tool rather than drugs and things like that. So he's now pivoted. And he said, you know what? I know enough basic about AI that I can help the normal Joe. So I'm going to do this 90-day learning program, charge 1,500 bucks, and just make the average Joe, who's an entrepreneur, founder, a leader of a startup, learn some basic skills on how to apply and utilize AI today in your normal walk of life. So I, you know, I think that's brilliant. I think that's really smart.

Starting point is 00:10:54 You heard me at the conference say, the reason why I like the two roles that I'm supporting here, in fact, Totum and Vibe, it's because I think there are going to be people who lose their jobs at AI, and then those people will become founders and entrepreneurs and do some interesting thing. Yesterday, I'm scrolling through TikTok, and there's a professor who said, and by the way, the next round of millionaires are not going to be Silicon Valley guys. it's going to be plumbers and HVAC guys because AI is not going to fix your boiler. He's not going to climb under your deck and fix the pipe. It'll never happen.

Starting point is 00:11:30 So those guys are going to be in demand. Yeah, one of my kids is kind of going the route of FBI, you know, and the other kid is probably the real smart one. He is in school to become an electrical engineer. And I said, it sounds like a good idea. I think it's brilliant. And I hear Gary talk about that as well. You know, Gary is always saying, like, you want to make a ton of money, become an electrician, you know, I love that.

Starting point is 00:11:53 Well, those guys are, you know, pretty much start at six figures with no college debt, way ahead of the game. You're talking like a decade ahead of the game. Here's an interesting question. What is one thing that people may need to unlearn right now if they want to stay relevant in the next decade? I think it's sort of protectionism, you know. I always compare what it was in the hallways of Sachi versus the hallways. of VaynerMedia. We were always afraid that somebody was going to take our idea because we were in an environment of fear. Is this the day the client fires us? And then when I got to VaynerMedia,

Starting point is 00:12:27 I realized, wait a second, this is an environment of fearlessness. Right. There's nothing that they believe they can't do. And they're willing to collaborate because they're confident in their ability. They're not worried about the next guy taking their idea. They're embracing the enhancement of that idea. So, you know, I think you've got to release the, I, I got to protect this. This is me. It's me, me, me. It's my idea. We four no more kind of approach. Is it safe to say that you're a big advocate of people staying in the creative process and coming up with their own ideas? Yeah, I think, well, Gary likes to say you're only one piece of viral content away from fame and fortune, right? From really turning your business around. And if, and if you approach every piece of content with that mind, this could this could be the piece.

Starting point is 00:13:16 that changes everything. You know, you're going to put that effort in. You're going to look for others to help round it out and soften it up. And I always tell people, you know what this is? This is the difference between static and beautiful classical music on the radio. You don't have to take a hammer and smash the radio to change the channel. Sometimes it's just a little tweak. So I spend my day tweaking entrepreneurial ideas.

Starting point is 00:13:41 So these entrepreneurs come to me with an idea. I'm like, I did try that. You know, I've seen it done that way once before. maybe look at it that way. Here's an example of how you could do something like that. You might want to talk to that guy over there. He's done that. That's my day.

Starting point is 00:13:54 I don't produce decks. I don't make presentations. I tell stories from my life. Yeah. Maybe before you decide to retire, we should create a new platform called like Orcini GPT. I did decide to retire and now I'm not retired. Well, I mean when you actually really decided to retire, you know, on the same

Starting point is 00:14:16 way. I want to talk a little bit more about future proofing, but first, it's funny, you made me think of this. I'm getting pitched on stuff all the time, and the pitch, unbeknownst to them, because, you know, if you're just pitching and not getting pitched, you don't understand how similar your pitch is to everyone else's, which I find humorous. So I always accept pitches. I'm like, sure, let me hear about it. You know, this guy was telling me about this really cool platform, but it has nothing to do with what I'm doing right now. And it's, it wasn't interesting to me. thought it was cool. But he was basically saying, you know, like if you don't take advantage of this right now, which, you know, it's like a big commitment to do all that stuff, it's going to pass

Starting point is 00:14:56 you by. And I said to him, I go, that sounds kind of nice if that passes me by. So what do you have to say to people that are frightened? You met John Lee. John Lee is, you know, entrenched in AI. And that's all he does is he's teaching AI. And I'm friends with him. And he, every single single week, he goes, all right, forget everything I said. Everything's changed again. Everything's changed again. So what do you, what do you have to say to that person that has that, like, fear of missing out or they're trying to catch up with something that's, they're never going to catch up with it? I say embrace the fundamentals to achieve success. All right? So, so there are just some basic fundamentals. What do I mean by that? I think anybody can grow a company that's not

Starting point is 00:15:43 profitable. I think it's a real unique skill to grow a profitable company. Right. I often say there's a difference between swelling and growing, both get you big, one is healthy and one is not. Wow. Right. So, so I spend a lot of time on basic block and tackling and telling people, let's figure out a plan to grow healthy. When I ran the Sasha group, okay, we were a little under 10 million in year one, 12 and a half in year, two, 15 and a half of year three, 17 and a half a year, four, 20 and a half in year five, never dip below a double-digit profit margin in any year, including COVID. That is healthy, profitable growth. Now, that's not explosive growth, okay, which some carriers companies do. They have explosive growth.

Starting point is 00:16:29 Right. From 40 to 350 million. That's explosive growth. Some years more profitable than others. It's just a different style. For me, I only know how to grow profitable companies. Right. When I was the CEO of a small publicly traded mobile media company, I got the company to cash flow break even a year and a half ahead of schedule. A new board came in and they said, James, you run this company like it's General Motors. Okay. We want explosive growth, no profits. I said, I don't know how to do that.

Starting point is 00:16:59 I can only run a profitable company. Let me help you find the next CEO. And that's kind of what we did. We parted ways, you know, like I said, I had a three-year contract. I said three and a half years. You know, I don't know how to run a company. It's not profitable because I embrace the fundamentals to achieve success. I'm not chasing a shiny object or a star.

Starting point is 00:17:19 By the way, that company went bankrupt several years later after two CEOs, three chairmen that are bored and two CFOs. Not that I'm anybody's savior. It's not about that. It's just careful what you wish for. You know, it's so funny. I guess I'm the minority, but explosive growth. doesn't get me all hot and heavy. I love the idea of profitable. I mean, our family is focused on

Starting point is 00:17:46 family. And, you know, that's one of the things that I got when I was having to talk with Gary about as, you know, we were just talking about our family. We weren't talking about business and stuff like that. His favorite topic, by the way. Oh, for sure. I picked that, I picked up on that right away because I asked him a question about like kids and technology and he got all fired up about it. But this idea of explosive growth. It doesn't get me excited. I love profitable and I love a good living. But what is going on where I see in business, especially in the young generation, if you don't have explosive growth and you don't become a billionaire, you know, threatening trillionaire, it's like you're a failure. It seems like some sort of a trap. Well, look, you know,

Starting point is 00:18:31 so Gary wrote a book called 12 and a half about the soft skills of leadership. And patience is one of those characteristics that he highlights the uh there's really 13 he calls a 12 and half because he hasn't mastered the kind candor side of it but patience is really important and we're in a society that is impatient and I sometimes see that you know even with myself right you know I'm hitting buttons three and four times you know standing around waiting for an elevator right like of course somebody hit the button that's why we're here then the house is going to come up and there. I got the magic finger. Let me hit that button. Yeah, hit it again. Yeah. But patience is learned. It is a skill. I've had many times people

Starting point is 00:19:20 like, James, you're not sensing the urgency. I said, I understand the urgency. I said, I'm just not my hair on fire like everybody else in the room. Somebody's got to stay calm and get us to what the situation is, right? A thoughtful plan to get us to the other side. So patience is really, really important. And some of the youth don't have it. So my wife and I are trying to be a good, a godly example to our three now grown children, one already married with a baby on the way, one getting married in August, you know, one living in Manhattan tearing it up in the city. I mean, we're just still trying to walk a walk of example because they will gather more from what they see and my words, right? So I need to demonstrate what it is I'm saying to them.

Starting point is 00:20:13 Yeah. Right. And as I'm working with these entrepreneurs, it's the same thing. I am sharing from my experiences. Okay, don't do what I did here. Here's a mistake that I made. You can avoid that. Okay, you don't need to go down that path. And by virtue of avoiding a mistake, you're going to pick up speed anyway, right? This is when Gary hired me, he said, James, you've made 25 years of mistakes that I don't want to make. Help me avoid the potholes and move faster. Genius. It was great. One, he was brilliant for hiring somebody like me when he did. I was a big investment at the time, but he was a retailer trying to become an ad guy. He's not the voice of an advertising industry. Kudos to him. But it was also, you know, at the very first

Starting point is 00:20:54 meeting, very first meeting, he introduced me to his 400 plus people. And I said, I'm here to help keep the trains on the rail. He said, hold on, hold on. No, time out, time out. You're here. to help me hover above the rails like the trains in Japan to move faster. Re-calibrated everything right there in a second. And then I understood, okay, this is my role. It's all about speed for him. And we'll have to leverage my experiences to bring him speed. I know that you're involved with, you know, Factotum and Vibe right now.

Starting point is 00:21:29 And I want to hear more about those. But kind of in the same sense, what kind of scenarios in. projects get you excited. You know, I find it fascinating that you're a guy that can come in and help write the ship of somebody that is like completely stuck and thinks that things are not going the right way. What is it about that scenario where you come in and fix things? It's always been like a superpower of yours. And how is that got you reignited after retirement here?

Starting point is 00:22:05 to engage in Factotum and Vive, you know? Well, I think it's, I enjoy helping others actualize their vision, right? So, you know, when I was the CEO of that CEDO mobile, it was a hard and lonely job at number one. And then I read a book, Consigliary, ruling from the shadows by a guy by the name of Richard Heidner. It was about being a great number two. And I was like, wait a second, that's kind of, that's who I am. In fact, if I had somebody like me when I was a number one, I'd be hugely successful. I didn't.

Starting point is 00:22:43 I had a number two who wanted to be in number one. So, you know, that's a difference. So, you know, for Gary, it was, can you describe what you're doing in a single sentence? I said, yeah, I take dreams and visions and turn them into action plan. He's like, great, you're hired. I got a lot of dreams of vision. You know I'm partnering both with Bobby Lane, on Factotum and Andre. Sullivan un-vived.

Starting point is 00:23:04 Two amazing human beings, by the way. Yeah, and they are both leaders that I'm helping actualize their visions. You know, the whole Vibe initiative was really birth during COVID when Andrea was stir-crazy and was taking Fortune 500 female executives to faraway places like Bali and Costa Rica just to have human interaction because we were all locked down in our homes. So she was traveling to places where COVID wasn't as prevalent. And they were doing good things and serving communities, but also learning. That was the gist of vibe.

Starting point is 00:23:42 And Gary saw it and he's like, James, I think there's a commercial business model on what she's doing there. She's doing it for fun. But check it out. Let's see if we can make it a real business. And then I did. And it was a combination of his vision to make it a business and her vision to do this thing for people. And in that particular case, we wrote a business plan in January.

Starting point is 00:24:03 We programmed it in February and March. We sold into it in March and April. We launched the first class in May. We did a million dollars in the first year. So that was really cool. Bobby came to me, and you know, in both those situations, I worked both with Bobby in the past and Andre in the past. Bobby came to me with this idea probably 15 years ago.

Starting point is 00:24:26 And I was like, you know what? not really cooked up yet. Not right for me, but swing back when you got a little more meat on the bone. And then over the last six years, he's really plowed efforts into it, and he had

Starting point is 00:24:42 some successful case studies in the UK. And he's like, what do you think? And I said, you know what? Now there's clay on the wheel. I think I can help. What do you want? A vase, a cup, a dish? Because how do you want me to mold us?

Starting point is 00:24:55 And he's like, look, I'm looking to, you grew Sasha to 20 million in five years. Can you help me get Factotum to 30 million and three years if I give you a 10 million head start? So that's my role. That's what I'm trying to do now in helping him stand up the U.S. operation to what is a very successful U.K. operation. How does James Orsini view failure? Because you get involved in these things and it's like very exciting and you know you obviously don't get involved in something and you don't think it's got clay on the wheels and all that stuff. But there is that possibility of the unknown. What's your thought on that?

Starting point is 00:25:33 Yeah, my thoughts are fail fast, fix fast, learn fast, right? So if I can just kind of, kind of do that, I'm really, I'm not afraid to fail. I have enough success now after 40 years that I'm not really proven anything to anybody else. That's the beauty of where I sit right now in my career. It's hard for my wife to understand too because I got a little shoulders back kind of moxie. Like, you know, if it ended today, I'm like real good. You know, like, it's people like you want to talk to me and hear about it. You know, I think today you are my 75th podcast that I've now done. That's a busy day.

Starting point is 00:26:13 No, no, not just today. In total. But it's, you know, so I fail less because I look at some of the things that I have done in the past where, you know, I think I shared the story where how Bobby and I met was it was a failure that I was a young global CFO and I bought three companies in London and I merged them together and I didn't pay any attention to culture and it was a dumpster fire when I was done and that's how Bobby came and I'm like, look you're going to help me fix this. I need somebody on the ground who can unravel the mistake that I've made. So, you know, it's not all success stories. It's a, it sounds great.

Starting point is 00:26:55 in a one-page bio. But yeah, there were definitely bumps in the road. So if I want to get Bobby's attention as a potential partner, I should just fail. And he'll be impressed by it or something like that. Well, you know, we have a lot of folks that are failing in their hiring effect totem right now. Right. So that's a good place for us to be. Failure is a big business.

Starting point is 00:27:15 So I like to keep my finger on the pulse of what some of the giants are doing. And, you know, through some pretty good resources, there's some very big. companies that operate that have traditionally operated on a massive scale in the live event and you know they have big organizations that are about to completely fire everybody and just like replace them with like two like agents you know there's this whole agentic AI thing so this is happening like everywhere and then there's also startups that are just not even hiring people and having AI agents you know do the work. What are your thoughts on that? Is there an implosion ahead there? I think it's a mistake. I think one of the things that we were talking about recently is this switch to analog from digital,

Starting point is 00:28:10 right? A return, a return to analog, a return to phones down. You know Gary owns restaurants, right? Yeah, it was at the fish one. It was just... Five Fish Club, right? Amazing, amazing, place. We got a little Maven this week. He wants his next club to have lockers. So when you're walking, you're going to lock up your phone, right, in order to enter the restaurant. So we're seeing a lot of that. I just came back from a client of mine in Maryland who ran a conference.

Starting point is 00:28:39 This is a third year doing it. It's 700 people. It's for automotive dealership guys and everything. People are starving for human interaction. Apollo, the big hedge fund company, your last. two investments were more purchasing big events. So I don't think live events, concerts, anything like that, you're going anywhere anytime fast. I just, you know, a couple of years ago did the Erez tour with my daughters and my wife for Taylor Swift. It was actually cheaper

Starting point is 00:29:10 for me to fly to four of us to London by the tickets at Wembley Stadium than here in the States. So live human interaction is big. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to, to swing back this pendulum to that. I run a family home at the Jersey Shore for two weeks every summer and my kids can't wait to be a part of just this board game hornhole toss beach life for two weeks straight. I think anybody who just is building a world that is solely digital is really missing out on some stuff. And I think there is going to be a return to back to basics and having a blend though you know I mean still leveraging a tech but but having this blend of it's an and and rather than an end one of the funny observations that I have about the

Starting point is 00:30:07 advancements of AI is that people are feverishly trying to get AI to be so good that it looks real it's like why don't you just be real you know it's like almost like real human interaction and interface and also social media, probably one of the reasons Gary's been so successful with that is that it's just raw and real. It's not fancy and everything like that. So let's talk a little bit about this future proofing concept because I think a lot of people are mesmerized by this idea of just taking risks and going for it and everything. And I don't see a lot of people, and there's poor parenting probably in there as well, but I don't see a lot of people like doing any like planning. You know, they're just like all in and they're just going to like go for it. What

Starting point is 00:30:51 industries or career paths do you think are most vulnerable right now because the world simply doesn't need them anymore in any way, shape, or form? I think research, paralegal, you know, those entry-level positions in service sector companies that spend their day looking through files and researching, that stuff is going to be a real problem, you know, because they could do it quicker. Now, can't do it just machine have to have human in the loop. Somebody's got to still look at that. But, you know, that's not an entry level who's looking at it. That's a little level up, right? So, but I think that's the danger. Anything that was there grinding, if you will, okay, and coming up with the legal brief that now you're going to, you know, you're looking back on previous legal cases for historical

Starting point is 00:31:45 data that that shit's all being done through a machine now. And then it's fair. accurate. I give it 80%, it's not 100%, but it's fairly accurate. So if somebody just has a human in the loop for 20% of the time, that's going to be, that's going to be important. Yeah, if you ever catch some of the old movies, you know, like the Tom Cruise movies with the lawyers spinning, like the entire night reading all the law books and stuff. Those guys were out. Right. They're followed with three guys carrying all the binders as they walk into the room, right? There's one lawyer arguing the case, and there's three dudes behind them, but did all. all the research behind it. That stuff, yush, I'd be worried about that. Those guys need to find

Starting point is 00:32:26 something else. So if somebody wanted to future-proof themselves now, it's going to be a lot of people listening. I always want to make sure that people kind of like know what to do. If somebody wanted to start today future-proofing themselves, where would you recommend that they place their focus? I think they should have a side hustle around their passion. Okay, so the days of dedicated too. I'm just a robotic for the corporate man. And forget about what I like to do. Okay, I like to bake. I like to, you know, do trading cards or whatever. I think you should simultaneously be running the side hustle because if and when your passion becomes your profession, it lights out, right? You've already won, you know, when you're smiling every day, when you're whistling every day that you're doing this.

Starting point is 00:33:17 So I believe this gig economy of side hustle is really important. And leads to some hugely, hugely successful businesses that were outside of, you know, what you thought your profession was. So a big proponent of that. Yeah. Well, that's what the Dragon is doing as you are looking at him right now. You know, I mean, I left some very, very lucrative businesses to start a podcast. and everybody said, well, you're out of your mind.

Starting point is 00:33:49 And it took me eight years, but, you know, I'm having a ball now. And I'm also playing the guitar. Yeah. Look, it's not the first time I've heard out of your mind, right? When I left Goldman in the 80s to go to work for a single public relations firm in New York City called Roland that nobody had ever heard of, they were like, you're crazy. Who's leaving Goldman Sachs in the 80s? Everybody's trying to drive there.

Starting point is 00:34:12 You're leaving it. Yeah, but within five years, we built the fifth largest public relations room in the world. and I was a global CFO overseen 31 offices in 26 countries by Tower 30. So it didn't look foolish in the rear of mirror. It looked foolish at that moment. But I knew I didn't like what I was doing anyway. I was making money. But I really was not enjoying my role in Wall Street.

Starting point is 00:34:34 I quickly recognized like, this is not for me. And if I don't leave pretty soon, I'm going to make too much money where I can't leave. So, you know, it took a shot. So I think there's more people taking shots now. And by the way, if you can do it with the air cover of I got a full-time job that's paying me and giving me benefits, everything, I'm going to do this thing after hours. I'm going to wake up early in the morning. I'm going to, you know, a lot of people making a lot of money on collectibles and trading cards and stuff like that. I don't do that personally because it's not what I like to do.

Starting point is 00:35:03 But there are enormous businesses around that, you know, just flipping stuff. You know, this whole world of live shopping now, you know, can really put anybody in the mix of, you know, of a moving product. And it's easy to put up a Shopify site or direct the consumer. The fulfillment gets a little harder because obviously you got a lot of stuff in your basement boxes and stuff like that. But generally speaking, I had a niece who recognized she was selling the medical products and then realized in the operating room. When they opened the package, they throw away the tools. And she's like, wait a second, I'm going to collect those tools and I'm going to sell that.

Starting point is 00:35:47 to morgues and veterinarians who don't care that it was an unused tool, right? I mean, that's a whole side hustle. We've run a whole other business because you just recognize, like, put in all this waste. I can do something with that waste. It's funny when I'm at a place now when people say, what are you out of your mind? And I go, oh, well, thank you so much for noticing. I appreciate the compliment. And they go, compliment.

Starting point is 00:36:12 I've been trying to get out of my mind my whole life. It's gotten me nothing but trouble. Here's an interesting one. What skills do you believe will never go out of style no matter what? No matter how advanced technology gets, you know, I want to empower somebody listening right now and just what are some human skills that will just never be replaced? Well, we talked about, certainly we talked about the trade industry, right? So the plumbing, the electrician, the other stuff, I don't think that will ever be fully automated and out of the box. But I think understanding finance has made me a hugely successful businessman, okay, because I never had to walk into a situation blindly and rely on somebody else to tell me what this means. You know, my wife has a whole profession of helping to educate and bring financial literacy to female founders and business owners. Okay, we started a business, but we don't know how to balance a checkbook or anything like that. I think it's a big flaw in our colleges and universities and high schools, even, that you're not teaching some of the basic budgeting skills.

Starting point is 00:37:24 We all have a checking account. You've got to have a balanced budget. I shared that even with my children. Like, look, you've got to have some kind of basic understanding. You're not all accountants. I get it. But, you know, you have to understand money, the power of it. the fear of loss and how to just, you know, know that the pluses need to be greater than the

Starting point is 00:37:48 negatives where you're in trouble. So, you know, big proponent of that. Even Gary talks about, you know, there are certain things you have to go to school for, right, medical, accounting, legal, you know, but, you know, if you're going to be a major of African-American studies or something like that, you know, maybe you don't need to have $300,000 worth of debt, he laughs at those that are majoring in entrepreneurialism. He said, just go to work. Like, why? I need to be an entrepreneur.

Starting point is 00:38:21 If you're an entrepreneur, you know it. He had a very famous speech at Columbia where, or no, it was UFC, I think it was, where he said, who here is an entrepreneur? And the people raise their hand. He's like, all right, get out of here. Go be an entrepreneur. Why are you listening to me? Well, you're in the wrong place.

Starting point is 00:38:38 Right? Oh, that's great. That's genius. This is also funny, and I'm just thinking that probably anybody could probably just call up anybody that's in an Orsini, even if it's one of your kids and just get some financial advisement. Just thinking about them growing up in your family. I mean, they've got to know more than most people. Well, look, you got to know enough to realize I don't do my own taxes. I have my own, you know, a financial and wealth advisor.

Starting point is 00:39:07 Like, I know my lane, too. I don't try and be everything to everything. Well, but you have a basic understanding, though. Yeah, I have an understanding enough to realize that I'm not going to be current on tax loss, right? So I better, I better go to somebody who's paying attention to everything that's changing because 2026 is different than 2025. You know what I mean? So even those kind of things, you know, yeah, doctors are specialists, right? So there's specialists in the finance field as well.

Starting point is 00:39:34 Yeah, that was a golden cage. being a doctor was I mean there was there was a lot of good stuff to it but oh I was so happy to me free myself up from that I want to talk a little bit about identity you know I just talk to people all the time about it's like they know what to do but they got to get out of their own way so one of the things that I've noticed is that people often kind of become trapped by the version of themselves that created their previous success in this fast changing world have you seen that have you seen people you know I mean like the story that comes to mind is the whole, you know, Blackberry concept, you know, it seems like you've got to be

Starting point is 00:40:13 agile now. You can't be caught up in who you think you are based on who you were. You know, how important is it for people to be, I think you said it before, open and curious and agile. Yeah, I think it is important. I think the whole concept of personal brand is important, right? And what does your personal brand stand for? And can it stand for? And can it stand? stand on its own. You know, I have, when I write an article, I actually have some people thanking me for writing the article myself because they realize it's not AI, that it's me talking, right? So that's when you, when you have a personal brain where people actually recognize that, really, you know, really important in standing that up. And there's times where both now and

Starting point is 00:41:03 In fact, I told him here in the United States and in the past with Cito Mobile, where in the early stages, my personal brand was bigger than the company brand. And they had to lean on my personal brand first to help stand things up. And then the company brand takes over. But look, I'm a big consistency. I'm the same guy. You know, on a call you hear that I am with my clients, that I am with my family, that I am in my church, that I am in my philanthropic endeavors.

Starting point is 00:41:33 how I've managed my world by not having to change out and wear these different masks from time to time. But what you see is what you get. And I think that was the beauty of Gary because people ask me, what is he like? I'm like, what is he like? You're seeing him on Vinny. He's exactly like what you see on video. That's who he is, right? The fact that you quickly realized family was important to him, that should be a surprise to anybody. Okay. That's the most important thing that he has. You know, and that was our kindred and spirit. We are total opposites. Me and him are total opposites, right? I would joke and say, I wear a ski helmet going down the bunny hill at Shawnee, and he jumps out of helicopters. You know, two totally different people,

Starting point is 00:42:15 but mutual respect for what it is that we do. Family, very important, principles, very important, kindness, important, helping others important. You know, so those were all the things that align for us. So funny. You just reminded me. I was at a comic con with my son, who's a freak for that stuff. And we're just walking around. And, you know, I see over at, I think it was a V friend's booth or something like that. But Gary's there. And there's like, you know, there's like at least 150 people online to like, I don't know, shake his hand and get an autograph or something like that. And we were just walking by. And I had met him a couple times. But I didn't like know if he, like, knew me. But we were just walking by. And I'm with my son.

Starting point is 00:42:59 It's like perfect timing that what Gary did. He goes, he goes, dragon. And I turn around and I'm like, and I walk up and I shake his hand and my son meets him. And my son goes, we walk away. He goes, you fucking know Gary Vee? And I said to him, I go, apparently, apparently. You know what? He's got a great memory.

Starting point is 00:43:18 He remembered great, great politician. I'm horrible with names, everything like that. But, you know, he's like a politician who remembers everything. Similar story, a friend of mine was wearing. wearing a Jets hat at Comic-Con. And Gary's like, you know, Jets. And he goes, Gary, where's James Orsini? And Gary goes, he's back at the office doing work while I'm here.

Starting point is 00:43:41 That's funny. It was so funny because the guy's like, I can't believe like he actually had a little dialogue with me, he goes. That's the funny thing about success is that, you know, the world starts to perceive that you're different, you know, and sometimes I guess people get caught up in that. I hear him speak about this, and I've heard you speak about it too, but just as kind of somebody that really has their finger on the pulse, you're still in the game. What advice you have to give someone that is looking to reinvent themselves at like 40, 50 and 60? Because I very often meet people

Starting point is 00:44:15 that I perceive, you know, in those age groups, they have a lot of wisdom and experience. I think they're highly capable of doing some big, big things. But they kind of have this impression that they've missed the boat and that, you know, what do you have to say to those people? So with those people, I say that they should do what I call an SSP matrix, a strength, skills, and passions matrix. These are my strengths, these are my skills, these are my passions. Forget about your resume and what you've done in the past, okay? I'm going to give you my wife as an example.

Starting point is 00:44:48 So she was a big corporate, you know, finance, the international director of financial reporting, like big stuff in big corporations. And then she sort of, that ended and wanted it to end. I said, what do you want to do? She goes, I want to help female entrepreneurs with financial literacy. And I said, that's fabulous. I said, I know somebody who owns a bookkeeping firm down in Florida. And most of her clients are female business owners.

Starting point is 00:45:19 So I said, let me call her to see if she's willing to meet you. She's not looking for somebody like you, just so you know. But when you tell her about your strengths, your skills, and your passion, she doesn't have somebody like you in her 12-person company. And they got to talking and they hit it off. And my wife loves her life now. Now, she's making, you know, 25% of what she used to make. But it wasn't about the money. It wasn't about it.

Starting point is 00:45:44 It was about smiling when you're doing this task and helping people, you know, helping people find their way. So she's now the sort of video. overlay that explains the financials to a bookkeeping firm that was just turning over books and records right so now there's an interpreter of hey what are these things actually telling me you know and i'm just watching the change in her i mean you know she she's glowing doing doing this thing that aligns with her strength right so she has a strength and and that she's a female wants to be dialogue with another female she got a skill in accounting and and she has a strength and she has a strength and she has a It's a passion for helping other people when you marry that up.

Starting point is 00:46:28 Sounds nice. I always tell my kids, I mean, like, you know, my kids do great. They play sports and they're, I'm totally fine with them playing Fortnite at night. But I always say to them, I'm like, you really love those games, don't you? And they're like, oh, man, it's so great. I'm like, well, why don't you get involved in that business? And they're like, I don't know. You know, I'm going to go do something that sucks.

Starting point is 00:46:46 What do you think the future of leadership looks like? A lot more in kindness, a lot less rigid, a lot more flexibility. COVID proved that we don't have to all be in the office 24-7. So, you know, recognizing and meeting people where they're at. I think the hybrid blend is going to be the best, not fully remote nor fully in the office, but I like the hybrid blend. You know, it's more in the middle.

Starting point is 00:47:16 It's what Gary calls purple, okay? More life in the middle, less on the extremes. You know, come back, come back to the little. in the middle and have a much better, much better lifestyle. Is my Dragonfly NFT going to be worth money one day? From your mouth, the gods of years, I got a couple of being friends as well. I'm the consistent cougar, as you would picture that as my right personal brand. If I was going to own one, would you picture me with a consistent cougar because it is who I am?

Starting point is 00:47:47 Yeah. I could care less if it makes money. I love it. I just like it looking at it. All right. So what I want to do now is I want to do a couple of rapid fire questions because we're at the end. You do your best. Biggest mistake people make during change. Lack of patience, expecting it to happen too fast. There's that patience thing again. How about this one?

Starting point is 00:48:09 Most overrated business trend. I would say, I've got to be a millionaire by my 20s or 30s. One thing AI will never replace. Plumbers. I'm from a family of plumbers. and electricians. My grandfather was a plumber. My father was a plumber.

Starting point is 00:48:25 My father was a plumber. Most underrated human skill. Kindness. Yeah. Just be nice, man. One thing people should stop doing immediately. Chasing the shiny object. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:48:38 I love that. These are good. You're good at this. Definition of relevance in 2006. I think it would be an awareness of your surroundings. What's happening around you? and how might it affect you in some way? What scares you the most right now about the future?

Starting point is 00:48:58 To tell you the truth, I don't fear the future. I embrace the future, and it's not much I fear. And what are you excited about most about the future right now? Oh, for me, being a granddad's coming down the pipe here, and I don't know what that entails, but I'm excited about it. and I hope I live off to the title. Well, I think everybody is going to be a little bit wiser, and a lot of people are going to probably figure out that some change might be on the horizon for them in a positive way.

Starting point is 00:49:34 And now people know that you're actually a pretty cool guy that has his shit together. So that's pretty cool, you know. Thanks so much for being here. If people want to step into your ecosystem, what's the best way to do that? Yeah, I am James Orsini on LinkedIn and Instagram. I'm at Jimmy DePencil on X and TikTok. That's great. And I will say that James is like a very, very nice, friendly person on social media.

Starting point is 00:50:02 Like if he shares your stuff and things like that, he's wonderful. I shouldn't say that to everybody. Thank you so much for being here. It's just really a joy. You know, you're the kind of person that I would love to talk to you for a lot longer, but, you know, I'm sure that we're going to cross paths over and over again. And I'm excited to see what happens with Factotum and Vive and, you know, and I'm not going to even try to make a prediction of when you're going to retire. Thanks, J.C. appreciate it. I hope your

Starting point is 00:50:33 audience enjoyed it. Hi, this is James Orsini, and this podcast makes sense. That's it for today. To support the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, be sure to subscribe, like, and share, as well as follow the Makes Sense substack for free daily quotes, live streams, and blogs. And remember, learning without action is just another form of distraction. If something hit home and you learn something today, give it away. That's the only way it's going to stay. See you next time. Makes sense.

Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - How to Stay Relevant When the World Changes Fast with James Orsini - E-177

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