Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Imposter Syndrome and Procrastination - with Guest Nicholas Voge - Episode 120

Episode Date: November 11, 2025

Great morning, world—welcome back to Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick, where confusion dies and progress thrives. Today, I’m joined by someone who has changed the way thousands of people think about motivation, achievement, and the stories we tell ourselves about success—Nic Voge. Nic is a Senior Lecturer at Princeton University and one of the foremost voices on Self-Worth Theory, a framework first developed by Dr. Martin Covington. His work brings this theory to life, helping students, professionals, and leaders understand how the drive to protect our self-worth often hides beneath patterns like procrastination, perfectionism, and imposter syndrome. You may know Nic from his viral TED Talk, where he reveals why high achievers often struggle the most—and how true confidence comes not from doing more, but from redefining where our sense of worth comes from. This isn’t just a conversation about productivity—it’s about identity.It’s about how we relate to failure, success, and the quiet belief that we are—or aren’t—enough. So take a deep breath.Because today, we’re going to make sense of the stories that shape our self-worth—with Nic Voge. Contact Nic Voge - Website: https://vogeacademy.com - Insta: @vogeacademy - YouTube Viral Video: https://youtu.be/52lZmIafep4?si=NSg6LbXFmfRJQ6X5 Listen now to learn how to reclaim your will to power, rise above victimhood, and rediscover your inner Superman. Follow Dr. JC Doornick and the Makes Sense Academy: ► Makes Sense Substack - https://drjcdoornick.substack.com ► Instagram: / drjcdoornick ►Facebook:  / makessensepodcast ►YouTube:  / drjcdoornick MAKES SENSE PODCAST Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. This podcast explores topics that expand human consciousness and enhance performance. On the Makes Sense Podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is a subjective and acquired taste. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at begin to change. Welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. SUBSCRIBE/RATE/REVIEW & SHARE our new podcast. FOLLOW Podcast - You will find a "Follow" button on the top right. This will enable the podcast software to alert you when a new episode launches each week. Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/makes-sense-with-dr-jc-doornick/id1730954168 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1WHfKWDDReMtrGFz4kkZs9?si=003780ca147c4aec Podcast Affiliates: Kwik Learning: Many people ask me where I get all these topics, which I've been covering for almost 15 years. I have learned to read nearly four times faster and retain information 10 times better with Kwik Learning. Learn how to learn and earn with Jim Kwik. Get his program at a special discount here: https://jimkwik.com/dragon OUR SPONSORS: Makes Sense Academy: A private mastermind and psychologically safe environment full of the Mindset and Action steps that will help you begin to thrive. The Makes Sense Academy. https://www.skool.com/makes-sense-academy/about The Sati Experience: A retreat designed for the married couple that truly loves one another, yet wants to take their love to that higher magical level. Relax, reestablish, and renew your love at the Sati Experience. https://www.satiexperience.com 0:00 - Intro 3:49 - Procrastination and Self-Worth Theory 9:12 - Self-Worth Theory Lens - How can we see things in people they can’t see? 12:36 - What is Self-Worth Theory - The Why behind our actions 20:16 - Strategic Self-Handicapping 27:38 - What are your thoughts on participation awards? Good or Bad? 35:08 - Imposter Syndrome 46:24 - My little Secret of overcoming Stage Fright. 48:35 - What’s Next For Nic Voge? Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This podcast covers topics that expand human consciousness and performance. On the Make Sense podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is a subjective and acquired taste. When you change the way that you look at things, the things that you look at begin to change. The Make Sense podcast is sponsored and primarily funded by the Make Sense Academy. our private community where open and curious seekers of growth and expansion apply the make sense principles and systems to move from simply going through life to growing through life. So check out the Make Sense Academy risk free for less than you'll spend today on shit that you don't need. Welcome, my friends, to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. Dornick

podcast. Makes sense. So welcome to the Make sense. make sense with Dr. J.C. podcast where we really are interested in topics that make people go, hmm, what hmm stands for I think you'll like and that stands for haven't made up my mind. A very scientific approach. What I love about researchers and scientists is how they're always open and curious. They don't need to be right. We're just opening curious to what's better. And I love the fact that when we started to dialogue, you have new stuff that you're going to be

talking about, which I love as well. So just to kind of get the background, first of all, what is the correct pronunciation of your eyes? Vogue. Okay. I wasn't sure if it was that or Vosges or something. Yes, I get both. Yeah. We got it now. So that was probably going to be everybody's biggest question of the day. So I guess my curiosity, because we're going to be making sense of not only procrastination, I'm so fascinated with self-worth theory. And also, obviously, there's a very, very big correlation in interest in imposter syndrome. I have suffered with them all. What I'm curious to know is how does somebody like this?

A lot of people have seen your TED talk because it went on my. I mean, first of all, did you know when you gave that talk that a lot of people were going to like it? I had no idea. I never expected in a million years. I'm just thinking back, and we'll probably hit it on this again, you were just talking about how you were programming your mind the right way and you wrote that list. I think something that you had wrote on the list preparing yourself for that talk was something about making an impact. Yeah. So maybe you did kind of foreshadow it.

Yeah, well, I think I'll use that as an entree into sort of the different kinds of motivation. When we're motivated by how we're perceived versus making an impact, that's a different kind of motivation. And we relate to ourselves in a different way. We monitor and observe what we're doing. If I'm looking out and saying, are you getting it? that's different than I'm looking at and saying, do you think I'm smart? Very different experience, very different orientation. And it's understandable that people feel assessed in that way.

A TED Talk, you're supposed to be smart. I came after the people before me who are Princeton professors and like at the top of their field. But that's not a help, at least for me, it's not a helpful way to think about it. Just from the perspective of a viewer, that's what I liked about it. It's pretty rare. I'm a pretty seasoned speaker and I've spoken on some big stage. And sometimes that gets in the way because people just assume that like this is what you do every day. It's a little bit boring.

You can witness somebody that is just speaking in the moment about something that they're very, very passionate about. So I just, that's one of the things I noticed. So with that, where did this fascination and procrastination and self-worth theory start? I mean, was this something that you just experienced yourself and had to figure it out? Or what was that about? It's great. Well, first of all, I love to use the word about fascination.

That's to me is a key word. It's a genuine interest in trying to understand something and how it works. The first inkling of interest came from the fact that I experienced it a lot. I was a big procrastinator. It was a little perplexing to me. I would say things like, oh, it doesn't matter. I got a good grade, so progress doesn't matter. But I was actually dissatisfied with that.

I didn't like the stress and anxiety and some other consequences. But I don't know that I really had a solution orientation to it until, really down a different path. I was interested in working with a professor named Marty Covington, who's done this work of software theory, in part because he was engaging graduate students at UC Berkeley in the process of writing another book that he was working on. And so you've got to learn how to write a book and how to write,

and that's what academics are trained to do. And I was like, I need to learn this. And I knew he studied motivation, but I did not know he studied self-worth motivation. And then when I read it, it was like, oh, this relates to me in a way that I'd never read, experience anything in a course to that time. And it really helped to unravel this puzzle. And it helped me see that these dynamics were operating in me. And then I saw how powerful that could be for

other people. You know, it's interesting because if you go to Amazon and you type self-worth theory, there's no books on it. Yeah, it's, you know, it's funny. It's a little bit of a clue there for you. Okay, yeah, there you go. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I can talk, speak to that. But his, he's written a number of books was called, so I wrote a book with him. It's written for professors to design classes that account for these motivational dynamics from a self-worth perspective. But he's written a number of books, one called Making the Grade, which is sort of his magnum opus. He brought together a large bodies of research, but he's written a number of them. And I don't know, a couple hundred articles. He since passed away. So self-worth theory of achievement motivation often isn't in the title. It's not

too catchy, but it is the underlying framework or the lens that people bring in. So I had never heard of it. I'd say psychology is an undergrad and I did some courses in grad school before I encountered. I'd never heard the phrase. And so I think it's unusual. But then I've since learned that it is operating. So if anybody's heard of the book Whistling Vivaldi, have you heard of Vistling Vivaldi? It's explore a stereotype threat. Claude Steele explains how that actually is coming out of a software theory. We might say paradigm or way of doing things, looking at the world. And I don't want to get too technical. This isn't for researchers, but it's a way of seeing the world through the powerful lens of ourselves and our relationships to ourselves, understanding that we construct reality and our interactions of people through what are sometimes called self processes, my self appraisal, my presentation of self, how I imagine other people view me, how I want other people to view or perceive me.

And I think if we introspect, even more than reflect, if we look inwards, we can see moments where this is happening. And it's quite common. We're often managing our sense of self and how we think other people perceive us. So when I encountered that in the class, I was like, whoa. Then I could see it in my students that I was teaching at UC Berkeley at the time, my undergrads. And so I just saw this utility. But a lot of it was just driven by maybe I can get some relief for myself. from procrastination and the anguish that goes with it.

What I find most interesting about this acknowledgement of self-worth theory, I teach something called the Interface Response System. And in essence, when people ask me what I do, I say, I help people think for themselves, which is not easy in this world that is thinking for us. What's fascinating about self-worth theory is this idea that it's kind of happening without you knowing it. It's part of the program conditioned mind. So one would have to consciously access some of the lower parts of the brain they're creating these things, which we don't know

until it comes to the forefront. One would have to meet you and hear your stuff before they even know that this is happening. Because all these examples you gave, and I'd love to kind of talk a little bit about what is it like for, you know, UC Berkeley students, Princeton students that are higher achievers that still do this stuff. When you're procrastinating, we're in a society where we're kind of taught that we're going after success, right? But you've made it pretty clear that, you know, what we want most is to be seen and heard and things like that, but we're not aware of that stuff. So that's what I find most fascinating is this stuff is going on without us knowing about it. So, you know, if somebody all of a sudden says, holy crap, am I procrastinating right now?

because they're using it for self-protection, as you say, and things like that, so they don't know. How does one let somebody know? You're witnessing this and speak a little bit about your students and what you see, and you're very, very, a lot of comedy in the standard process of procrastinating, waiting to the last minute. I love the way you explain that stuff. But how do you let one know that they're procrastinating, or is that just for them to find out? You're a very perceptive person.

You touched on a kind of paradox that I take seriously and I experienced. So in a way, what I'm doing is I'm outside of you, and I can, by virtue of my training and the research and the learning and the coaching and the things I've learned, I can say something that's often as people find true about their inner workings that they were not aware of. How is that possible? How can I know something about you that you don't know? That's incredible.

And I'm not always right, or it's other people aren't right. But it is really important to recognize that. Now, so what is that? Am I a genius? No, I've learned some things from the research and a way of thinking and seeing that is not commonly understood, but is commonly happening. And what I can do as an educator or coach is give people a framework, a lens for looking inwards.

And then they, and this is what you're getting at, they're going to have to make the insight. They're going to have to notice their particular patterns. What are they responding to? So sometimes I say, you know, the dynamics of procrastination are pretty general, and everybody at the same time procrastination their own way. Those are both true. Like you, I believe in the power, ultimately an autonomy and agency of the individual, that it is essentially almost limitless and necessary.

So it starts with then an understanding that awareness, so awareness through self-inquiry, gaining self-knowledge, But that can just arise. Smart people and incredibly and smart people have made and thoughtful people have made these insights about these dynamics. Software theory and Marty Coventina are not the only people in the work made this, the Buddhists of this. I mean, they're saying very similar things, other psychologists. But you have to see that and notice that. So you gain awareness through the lens and then you notice the patterns.

And then you understand some of these dynamics. You gain some sensitivity. And then that knowledge can be used to intervene. And we can then at that point build upon some research, more recent research, even than Marty's research, about like emotional regulation or cognitive behavioral training and reframing and reattribution. We can even modulate motivations by thinking in part by thinking about what we're attending to. That was an example I gave. Am I attending to how people think of me in terms of my intelligence or am I thinking about how I'm impacting them and am I being. effective. So that's a, that's a kind of motivation that's influences and is influenced by my attention.

What am I attending to and monitoring if you can kind of imagine this? And so the starting point, I think, is the self-worth theory of achievement lens, this way of seeing. Impart that to people or help them think, then they use it to gain insights about themselves, notice their patterns and dynamics, just noticing sometimes is a strategy. Yeah. I was asked the other day, I was being interviewed and I was asked the other day, if I could choose a superpower, what would it be? I love that question. Yeah, great question. And I said my superpower would be awareness.

I just think that there's just this amazing thing when somebody becomes armed with the weapon of awareness. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of that going on in the world these days. So it's a pretty relevant topic. You brushed on something that probably has people really interested and we have to remember. remember a lot of people probably don't know what self-worth theory is. Right. So if you could just kind of season, you know, this talk with that right there and specifically talk about that, that three-word formula, because I found that that was something, one of those,

one of those things that I knew, but I just love the way that the self-worth theory put it into play. So if you could. And again, I just want to give all credit to Marty Covetin, who ascertained this with some collaborators over the years. But so self-worth theory is a lens on or even a paradigm. on trying to understand human beings, human motivation, the why of our actions, right? One, a technical term would be called the cognitive dimension versus cognitive or affective, conative.

So the motivations, intentions, aspirations, what really is the reasons why broadly conceived we act in a certain way? And software theory says the most powerful one, the paramount motivation, is to be seen as good and worthy. That's what we really are striving for as human beings, and it's really essential. And in many contexts, to be good, to be worthy is to be smart, to be capable, to be a good scientist or creative genius or what have you. And so it's really tied, particularly in these achievement contexts, because it's self-worth theory of achievement motivation. In these achievement contexts, particular dynamics or saliances come to the fore.

So you can see if you're a mathematician, you know, being really good at math matters, being a good hockey player, not so much. So it doesn't affect your self-concept. You're not trying to maintain your sense of that. But when it comes to math, you are because that matters to you. It matters to the community you're part of. That's what the context you're trying to achieve in. So the idea here is that this is really fundamental, so basic that we're frequently trying to maintain this sense of self that we have.

and, crucially, how other people perceive us. And then it goes to not just capability, but worthiness, deservidness. Am I worthy of people's high esteem of me? Am I worthy? Am I a good person becomes associated with being a good mathematician or a good educator or a good dentist or whatever my, that domain is? Particularly in these achievement contexts where that's what you're being assessed on. So I'll just give an example.

You said in these contexts like Berkeley or Princeton, well, why do Princeton students get to Princeton in principle? Because they're selected because of these abilities. So they're deserving of all those resources and study abroad and those world class professors and those incredible labs. Are they worthy of that? Are they of value that worse that? It makes sense that they would wonder about this.

Am I worthy? Am I deserving? These are questions that frequently come up. from the vantage point of examining ourselves through the lens of worth. You don't have to see yourself that way, but there is a kind of appraisal. Am I worthy? Am I deserving?

And I think if we, there's certain contexts that really evoke that then, but I think we're often walking around in this world, experience that, and actually, especially navigating the virtual world, where people are curating their identities and their images of themselves

and they're trying to create the perceptions of other people, where I think it's really magnified. But that tells us, I don't think it's a unique, the social media or virtual space is not unique in that sense. I think it crystallizes it and shows us, this is often what's going on for us all the time, or nearly all the time. So fascinating.

You just gave me an idea for another episode sometime and it's going to be making sense of worthiness. I see another paradox right there. It's like, I don't think we really understand. this stuff until if we're gifted with it, the recognition that you have 10 minutes to live. When we always ask questions, I love to ask a question, if you knew you were going to die in 10 minutes, what would matter to you? How would you look back at your life and dictate whether or not you made your time count? And some of these things would come up and you would, the things that

pop into my head that make me realize this, this stuff that's going on behind the scenes is like, what kind of a footprint legacy. That's the stuff that people really care about, but unfortunately they don't find out about it until they realize they've spent their whole life living in an imaginary place called the future. It's not our fault, right? Don't hate the player, hate the game.

It's such a fascinating topic. Yeah, I'd say we shouldn't, I don't think it's useful to see it in terms of fault. I think there's a few nuances here, I'd say. I was watching a little video earlier on imposter syndrome by a researcher I really respect. I think he got it wrong. He said it's natural to have imposter syndrome.

And I would say, well, I think it's completely understandable and common. And I don't know that it's natural. I don't want to naturalize it doesn't feel natural. No. So I think, you know, and I don't want to pick apart any given word. But I do think it's useful to say to make that distinction. Because something's common. And then we can understand how people in our society, particularly in these achievement contexts, experience these dynamics, respond in this way, then where there's, I think what you're getting at is they're striving after achievements in the pursuit of worth, even though achievements can never fully provide us with.

But we equate that in our mind because we've been sent, given that message in our society in various contexts. It's not the only message we've gotten, but it's often the overwhelming one. And so in that sense, we can understand it. We can also crucially have compassion for it, that we experience this dynamic. We can see, oh, yeah, totally makes sense. But I don't like natural sounds a little inevitable to me, and I don't believe that. I don't see that. I don't see it as inevitable.

But I think mainly is it's, and we don't need to blame anybody. We could just remove the idea of blameworthiness. We don't have to think in terms of blame. We can accept what is. and then say society does that sometimes some people then do I want to encounter that oh it's that explains why it's so hard to let go because every I'm getting all these messages so because I think that's important I think kind of you're getting it in society we live in today worthiness seems to be a bigger issue for more people than ever and that's not surprising I don't

think that's oh there's something wrong with kids today I think we've organized our society sent messages that contribute to this and this is the natural outcome and that's we as individuals are going to have to take a lot of initiative in finding a path against that stream. Yeah. The last guess I had was this guy named Chris Bailey, and Chris talks a lot about focus and how everybody's vying for our attentions. That's why I think the Bible just says it so well when he says, forgive them for they know not what they do. I mean, it's just so easy for you to think that what you think and feel came up, you know, was your idea. So there's so much value in finding out.

I call it a game of drifting and shifting. We live in a society that would say that if you're drifting and you're procrastinating, you're doing all these things, it's bad. Well, it's actually a wonderful thing if you can figure it out that you are, because only from there you can maybe shift. And you talk a lot about that, about some things that we can do. In the context of recognizing that a lot of this stuff is happening on autopilot, in our little AI bot in our brain that's just doing this stuff,

what I love is I love how you have identified some things that show how, you know, it's like if you're procrastinating or you're having imposter syndrome, you might think that there's something wrong with you, but in effect, your brain is actually doing exactly what it's supposed to do and it has a reason. There's a value in procrastination. And so you talk about stuckness. And the coolest thing that I picked up from hearing you speak was strategic self-handicaping. I just, that was like a slice of pizza. I just loved that. I hope you like pizza.

Unfortunately, I do. So tell me a little bit about that because this would kind of let people off the hook. It doesn't mean that procrastination is a good thing. But it was, it's just liberating to figure out like, oh, that's why I'm doing that. Yeah. So this idea of a kind of strategic handicapping or sometimes people say self-sabotage, these are terms that maybe you're familiar with, I'm going to come back and take issue a little bit with self-sabotage. But this is an awareness that people have.

They're like, wow, I have this goal. I really want to do this thing, but I'm not engaging in it. That's really puzzling, right? That's procrastination. If you're not doing something you don't want to do, I don't think there's any mystery. When I'm talking to people who want to be a writer or who want to be a musician or want to arise in their career, and they're like, I'm not doing the things that I know and something I want to do, but I'm not doing them.

That's puzzling. And I've tried to stop doing that. And yet I keep doing it. That's perplexing. What's going on here? My everyday natural interpretation of events is not adequate. That's where self-worth theory comes in. And in particular, this idea of protective strategizing or protective motivation.

So software theory posits this kind of equation of achievement motivation, self-worth theory of achievement, that we carry around in our society these beliefs. beliefs, often unknown, as you've said, unaware, that our performance, our achievements are equivalent to our ability. So I achieve because of my ability for the most part. I'm winning on the track because I'm really fast and I was born fast and that's not going to change. Or I'm good at math, so I get good grades. I get good grades of math because I'm good at math. Yeah, I try, but not very, you know, that's not nearly so important.

So it's kind of like a fixed mindset. If you're familiar with Carol Dweck's work on fixed and growth mindset. So I have this belief that my performance is due to this inherent, largely unchanging characteristic that I have that's largely innate. And then in these achievement contexts, I equate that ability with my worth. So I am deserving of Princeton. Or I'm in the Bluebirds versus the whatever reading group because I'm good at this thing. And school actually reinforces this in our society. So then I equate my performance with my worth, right?

So P, performance equals A, ability equals W. I think you were asking about that. And so if I have this set of beliefs, which are mistaken, by the way, if I hold this set of beliefs and I'm doubtful or fearful about my performance, then one way that I can protect my worth is to not give my full investment in it. So if I procrastinate and don't have any time or I create conditions, where I couldn't perform at my best, we don't get a clear, unvarnished view of my ability. So I protect my ability.

And you see this in colleges and you're standing outside the classroom before the exam. And people are going, oh, yeah, I only study two hours. Two hours. I only studied one hour. I just woke up. And everybody's doing this defensiveness, right? They're saying, I'm not going to be able to perform at my best. There's something wrong with me.

But it's not my ability. But it's not my ability. Does that make sense? Not only to protect it, like you said. said, but it sets you up. It's a pretty good thing to do. It's a good strategy. Yeah, it's a good strategy because if you don't perform well, you have a built-in excuse. If you do perform well, you say, well, I'm even smarter than I thought. So procrastination is an excellent strategy for maintaining your sense of ability and therefore your worth. And so in that sense,

it's not sabotaging yourself. This is why my issue with that. And I know that's not exactly what they mean by that, but you're actually sabotaging your performance or potentially sabotaging your performance to protect your sense of self. So the term self-sabotaging can sound like you're trying to fail and feel bad about yourself. No, no, no, no. I don't think that. I mean, I've coached hundreds of people. I've never heard anybody say something like that. But they don't want to be judged on their ability. That's scary, particularly in a new environment, the next step up, highly competitive, where ability is often equated also with potential in the future. So it's not just my performance now, it's my potential. And so,

for instance, in a Princeton environment, Princeton students will say, it's better for me not to ask my professor my questions because I want them to think I'm smarter and then that'll turn into a better grade. And I'm like, really? Wouldn't you want to ask your questions before the test So you get them answered. And so from a rational point of view, in terms of performance, that would be the way to do it. It's to say, I don't understand these things. Please tell me.

But if you are trying to protect your sense of self, rationally, you wouldn't ask, right? It's still rational, but from a different lens. It's not about achievement and performance and capability. It's about worth. And if you see it that way, you can look around. You can see all these people protecting their sense of themselves and their worthiness. And it's very human. There is no way that it's not what human beings do.

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean it's adaptive or helpful. And, you know, I would never tell somebody to stop doing it. But if you see that it's not helping you, then self-worth theory and the strategies and techniques and tools that follow from that can help you. So fascinating to think about that moment. I mean, I didn't go to Princeton, but, you know, I just remember I got accepted to the school I went to. and it was the school that I didn't know for sure I'd get in.

And I just remember, say, I'm probably not going to get in. It was kind of like that. And I remember when the letter came, this is for the young folks. We used to get things in the mail out of paper. I just remember having somebody else open it and stuff like that, you know, just hiding and hiding and hiding from having my ability threatened. I love that. You just stimulated one curiosity because you were talking before about how the educational

system is kind of reinforcing this idea that our abilities are what dictate our performance. What are your thoughts? I don't know if anyone's asked to this question. So this is fun. What are your thoughts on the whole new concept? I was brought up. You and I are probably brought up with the whole, if you don't succeed, try and try again. We're in an environment now where it's like, if you don't succeed, try something else. So things have changed in that sense. But what do you think about A for effort or participation awards and things like that. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Here's a quote that I like from Marty. So Marty Covington is my professor, my mentor, he's my friend. He was very influential to me. He used to say, if at first you don't succeed, that makes you

bad average. So reframe the whole thing. Well, I think it's like any intervention educationally, there's no perfect strategy. And we need to recognize that. And then we need to recognize their trade-offs. So we're trading off one thing over another. In any given situation, I'm certainly not a prescriptive, like we should, every student in every class should be taught the same way. I actually think if there's individual differences, people have different profiles. We respond to different kinds of situations and features, and we need to actually get used to different ones, too. So there's all kinds of reasons to not be prescriptive. So I think there's more like principles that might guide any educators' choices. So for instance, if you, if you,

are designing a learning situation, a teaching situation in effort is really important, then you might want to recognize and reward that in some way. Right. And if you want people to try and continue to stay engaged, even if they can't win at some point, which is common. Like, it's after the midterm, it's something Berkeley and Princeton students will calculate their grade and go, I can't get an A. And then they check out. Well, most instructors don't want that. So is there ways that you can minimize that feeling or that maintain engagement can you create a grading system that rewards that and then it also matters what it's for i mean i think if your job is to build bridges you know effort shouldn't count as much okay like i want the bridge to stand up okay like but some things

effort seems perfectly appropriate to recognize and reward no one's life is on the line on the soccer field so you know giving people a recognition that seems fine and the benefit of soccer of a often is to develop or to get young kids is to develop an interest and a passion for a lifelong activity that adds to their health. So if that's the goal and rewarding them and recognizing them in some way does that, if it does, then sure. So we need to think about the stakes, the consequence, what's the effect, different age. And then also there's even ways that different kinds of rewards are given. So we know, for instance, that given rewards of process or effort, they work much better if you don't tell people in advance they're going to get them, but you give them after the fact

if they're not oriented toward that. Interesting. We're talking about human beings. So I'm making these claims like they're absolute. It's not true. There's always a big qualifier. Sometimes maybe, just to be clear, but that is one thing we have learned. It's so there's a lot of subtleties and nuances about how we reward people. You know, I'll just tell you, I think it's not unreasonable for students to say, look, you want me to spend all this time doing this thing, but you don't recognize it in any direct way? Wait a second. Why is that? Even if you as a teacher decide not to do that, I think it's reasonable to address that and say, here's why I don't to do that. Especially older people, adults. Adults want to understand the system. They're much less likely just to go along. Be transparent

about the purpose. What's the rationale? If you can anticipate that someone's going to question your thinking or it's not going to be evident, surface it and make it known. Otherwise, adults are going to go, okay, turn off, I'm going to play the game. You know, and that's not an unreasonable response. I think it often doesn't add to their growth and well-being and engagement. Any case, so I guess I'd say it depends. There's some conditions. I certainly don't think that it's inherently problematic to reward process or effort.

This plays out quite a bit. I've got three kids, two boys, but my daughter competes at a high level in jujitsu, and she's been doing this for quite some time. And, you know, this is not just like a sport. This is like fighting, you know. But she's 15. And, you know, as a parent, you're always caught between like, how do I prepare her for a match, right? So I just remember those days where maybe she had a little bit of self-doubt.

And back in those days, I'd say, hey, let's just do our best. Let's have some fun. Because her goal was to just, like, get out alive. But then something happened with her where she started to say, I want to win. And I noticed that if she got like second place silver or bronze, she didn't want the metal. But that was her decision. So now when we're when we have a match, like her next match is in September, she has one goal. And it's it's that or nothing.

But she's she's put that into her goals herself. So my role as a father is I have to still say, hey, you you really left it out there. But she'll she'll say, don't tell me that, you know. So it's, it's interesting to watch. her develop like that. Yeah. That sparks something for me if I can. So a former student of mine and who worked at Princeton, and she worked for me as an academic coach. So she's now an Olympic level. She was in Olympics last in Paris in the discus. I guess I just gave her our identity away. She was saying since then, she's much more attached to the outcome. She's like, if I'm going to travel and

go to these meets, you know, I want to perform and there's accolades on the lines of maybe even money. and she noticed a different experience of being there. And so on the one hand, I would say having a single-minded focus to only win, definitely if you look at people who have achieved a lot, that has motivated them. There's uncompromising, win at all costs, and I think this is certainly communicated in a lot of sports. That's what I kind of learned in my athletic training. You do whatever takes to win, including cheating if you have to, if you can get. get away with it. But that doesn't often lead to much pleasure. And over time, if you don't

like what you're doing, then you don't engage in it as much. So if you know about anything like Andre Agassi or there's a lot of people who achieved the highest level, we're pretty miserable. But then there are people who achieve the highest level who love it. I'm thinking of Steph Curry. Kobe Bryant talked about this very insightfully. There's a great little clip on YouTube where he's being interviewed and the interviewer says, some people are motivated to win. Other people are motivated they hate, they hate losing. Which one are you? And he says neither.

And I really annoyed the interviewer, by the way. And he said, I'm out there to learn. I can learn it no matter what. And he really speaks eloquently about it. So I think, you know, through the lens of coach or teacher or parent, we can provide some perspective. But I think your point is it's the thing that the individual attaches. But I would say even there, so sometimes I've worked with people to really achievement-oriented. And I'll just ask, is eyes on the prize the best strategy for you?

And I'll say, is eyes on the process better? And they'll go, a lot of times I'll say yes. Okay, that's not me. I'm just giving you an alternative. Or at certain times you want to think about the prize, like when you don't want to do that extra set, then thinking about the award, awesome. On the mat, not so much, I would argue.

What's interesting about this is that my daughter, if she was listening right now and she will eventually, she would say, well, it's actually keeping your eyes on the process that leverages the price in Jiu-Jitsu. That's right. That's fascinating. When she goes there, if she just focuses on winning, she'll actually get tapped out because she won't pay attention.

All right. So I'm going to give you a scenario because I want to talk a little bit about imposter syndrome. And the reason why I love it so much is because I struggled with it so much. I'll give you a scenario of a tough time that occurred in my life and I identified this. and I want to know how this correlates, and I know that you're passionate about it. I went through a phase of my life. I've always been a public speaker

and just this super confident, borderline cocky guy that, just give me a mic in front of Giant Stadium and I'll talk, right? It was a comfortable thing, but all of a sudden, boom, I found myself like getting ready to go out on a stage in front of 15,000 people and just paralyzed with fear, which I'd never experienced before. So all of a sudden I had had anxiety. panic and all that stuff. And I just was one of these people that decided to walk out there anyway.

And I just struggled. I always felt better at the end, but I never broke this cycle. So I made this huge distinction. And it came at the other side of a conversation with a mentor. And I made a distinction that what was happening was for the first time I was going out on the stage. And I felt like I started having these ideas like, I'm not worthy. Why the hell would they want to listen to me? They're going to think I'm a loser. They're going to fall asleep in the crowd. And I'm going to vomit and break my nose on the stage, all that.

And then boom, walk out on the stage. But I made this really interesting distinction that what was going on is I was going out on the stage to talk about things the way that I was asked to talk about them. Not the way I would talk about them. And it was so fascinating because I was having imposter sense. syndrome, and I didn't need to. So I made a switch and I just had this new rule. And a lot of people don't like being around me before I go out on stage because I don't plan my talks. When I just, I have a topic, this is going to be an interesting thing when you see me do my TED talk one day, which will be called, hmm, just like that. But I don't plan my talk because then I'm coming from

the authentic place and there's no imposter syndrome when I'm speaking from the heart and stuff. my question is, is what's going on there? Because that's my own version of it. But what is the correlation between procrastination, self-worth, but imposter syndrome? Because this is a hot topic. Everybody's like struggling with imposter syndrome. There's a few things going on, I think. So let me say that I'm not an expert in imposter syndrome that I've read some of the early work research articles.

And I certainly read that people say sometimes, you know, out there. and I mentioned I'd watch a couple videos. And so what I would say is self-worth theory, which is not well known, as we've discussed, I think bring some insight into the dynamics of imposter syndrome, which is a multifaceted thing. The word syndrome in psychology means that it has multiple manifestations and no single clear cause. So it's like a cluster. And I would actually argue that we should call it procrastination syndrome, not procrastination,

which might imply we really know where it comes from. So this goes back to your point about. being humble about what the claims we're making and what do we really know. I don't know. I'm trying to give you a framework that helps you understand yourself and improve your life, not make claims that are universal in the universe. In any case, so in your case, it sounds to me like as you, it may not be so much, it may have something to do with the size of the venue and the people, but a crucial thing to me is, along with that, you changed or the process by which you came to your topics and prepared and spoke changed.

And that this is a crucial thing that it was you, you were now maybe as more of a professional or different states, you were trying to adapt you yourself and your message and what you do to somebody else's desires. And then that audience. Now, you know a lot less about what they want than what you want to say. Inherently more uncertain.

It's maybe not, I've been in this situation too. I try to develop sessions and workshops and trainings to the context, but I have to be very careful not to go too far where then I'm not confident that I'm not talking about what I know because then then I'm what happens. Then at that point, I think we have this uncertainty. If we really break down what's going on internally in your head, you have expectations for yourself.

You start to wonder, what are they thinking? Are they, and you talk about, are they going to, you know, are they assessing me negatively? Do I come across as knowing what I'm talking about? And then you're less likely to be effective. If for no other reason, then your mind is divided because what you want to say and do and then notice how it's going is actually part of your mind is preoccupied. We use that term preoccupied by these other questions. What's going on in their head? Are they judging me?

Is this what they wanted? Do I actually know what I'm talking about? All those things, though understandable questions, do not help your performance. And I would say that my guess is a big part of that had to do with these basic terms of your agreement with this. you created a new situation. So I had something similar like if you put me, if I'm teaching, I'm pretty comfortable and confident.

But if you put me in some place where I have to entertain somebody, I get really nervous. I'm not funny. I can't tell a joke. Well, my wife says I'm funny, but I cannot tell a joke. Like, I'm not good at that.

So if I entertain you, I get nervous. And I'm thinking, you know, if someone says, hey, explain something to me, it's completely different. So the terms, my confidence. And then also maybe,

it changed the way you actually did things. So if you were less improvisational, so for instance, that happens a lot. If you're on the edge of your expertise, then you have to create a script or something like it. Now you're monitoring. You're trying to remember what you wrote down rather than present and engage.

Again, your mind is divided. Then you're assessing that. Am I doing this well? Only at a cognitive processing level, you're now diffused. If you are focused on, if you are covering ground that you know and you can cross it in different ways and some new things pop out that you've never

said before but are pretty damn good and people notice that and it gives you a little juice and then you're more natural in the way you're speaking because you're not trying to remember the script all these things right can have these positive benefits of the impact but there's certain conditions of the situation that are necessary for that to even happen i don't know if that makes sense to you at all it totally does you know i have a strategy and i'll share it a second but whenever somebody's tells me what their problem is, I always say, and that's it. I just say that. And I give them some time. And what's funny is, is they say, well, it's probably just this or something like that. It just let people talk. But what are some strategies that you could offer somebody,

whether it be procrastination, when they're in the loop of some sort of an unconscious, negative loop, you know, what are some things that you would recommend if they took out a card that they got from from nick and it said do these three things what would it say well the first one i would say is it depends on different people are going to intervene in different ways so let's just say there's a kind of like a triangle of intervention in the human organism there's our our nervous system and our body our emotions which are closely connected that and our cognitions there's other we have we're moral creatures we have a moral dimension spiritual but let's just use those that three kind of triangle and different people can kind of intervene in different places is more comfortable for them.

But so I'd say for instance, if you're familiar with CBT, cognitive behavioral training or cognitive therapy, the premise there is that we can use our cognitions, the way we think, the way we talk to ourselves, the way we frame things to affect our emotions and our nervous system, right? So if I talk to myself in a certain way, that turns down my anxiety, which affects my physiological state, including my brain, and that opens up some possibilities. for me to think creatively or problem solve or just be in a state where I'm I'm enjoying it a bit more. It's not aversive to be thinking about the big report because I've managed that. And so it's not wearing me out.

And if it's painful, then I'm not going to want to do it. So I'm not going to engage in that task. So that's one way in. So that's one thing I'd say is you might use your mind to modulate your emotions and your nervous system. So that's me. I'm a super cognitive person. I notice my thoughts, right? So that's a place.

Oh, I can notice my thought. I just said that to myself. I can even find notice. Oh, I have these patterns. I say these things to myself a lot. Huh. Is that helpful way to talk to myself? Is it true?

No, I can interrupt them. Other people are more aware of their emotions. So they'll notice what they're feeling. I think it's gendered. I think sports, you don't pay attention, your feelings. Because if you're hurt and tired, you're going to stop. So don't, you learn not to. do that. Other people are more where their emotions, hey, where does that come from? How's that

affecting me? And the big part of that is accept. I'm having this emotion. That's not passivity. That is not, you're not fating that. You're just saying this is the state. I'm not denying it. Because that's not helpful. I'm not repressing it. But I can accept it and at the same time, say, I don't want it. So we can intervene to change our emotional state, just as we can intervene to change our cognitive state. And slightly different, but related. I can use my cognition to affect my emotions, but I can directly do that in a variety of ways. And there, like, ACT is a therapeutic intervention. There's other ways to modulate your emotions. And all those things are rooted in the organism, my physiology. So I can just directly go to that. So that's a lot of what Buddhism and

meditation is a prayer is, I'm going to address my physiological state and that'll have benefits to my emotional and my cognitive. If I'm in a state of calm, I'm going to think better. And then I can use my thinking to solve the problem that is a real problem in front of me. I'm anxious because it's hard. Okay. But then being anxious, so I call that hardness of the task. I got to figure out how to market this thing. But my reaction, I would call that an obstacle, which is different than a difficult. It's in the way. So I want to address that. So I'm also to see, I'm actually a different set of strategies and I'm separating. I'm also separating it for me. I am not my emotion. And I'm not even my physical state right now. Those all can change. So I think it doesn't feel

fit on a 305 card, but I would say, you know, you can direct and shape your physical state, your emotional state, and your cognitive state. And I would add motivational state. You can modulate your motivations, but, and I think people do it, actually. They haven't noticed that they're doing it. And so they haven't systematized that are mass, you know, increase the skill level. Yeah. Is that kind of what you're asking? Yeah, yeah. No, no, it's great. And this house knows quite a bit about all that stuff, because my wife, is a sex therapist and a mental health therapist. So she's doing a lot of CBT.

Cognitive behavioral training or cognitive behavior. And I, for one, have been, you know, coached and mentored and have had a therapist for, you know, ever. So, you know, we're very big on that. Here's my little secret. One of the things that I noticed is that I would only get anxious, which would prompt procrastination, right? Like I would, I remember if I had a talk coming up in like two months, I would have

all these elaborate plans of how to get the hell out of it, you know. I understand procrastination. The way I would overcome it is just to recognize what you and I are doing right now. And this is important for listeners to hear because Nick and I are not seasoned people that have no problems, you know, but here we are. He's actually vulnerably told you a little bit about some of his insecurities, right? But here we are having this totally chill conversation because it's conversational and it's back and forth and it's like we could do this in our sleep. But if I were to say, okay, here's Nick and I just let him talk for 30 minutes and he went into presentation mode, it would be different because he would be wondering. So I took that to the stage and it's kind of a

funny thing and you'll see it if you ever see me speak on stage. But the first thing I do is I go out there with nothing to say. And I look at everybody and I just go, hmm. And I take an uncomfortable pause for them. And everybody starts to giggle. Some people think I'm freaking out or something like that. Right. Well, what I'm doing in that moment is I'm wondering what it is that they want to know, which is impossible to do. But I make a connection with them. And I'll always open up with some sort of statement of gratitude, but I'll always ask a question. And that's how I lock in is I get into a conversation with the crowd. And it's just an interesting observation, because if I go out there and I present, which is what's tough about a TED talk, is you just present. Yeah, I'm not

used to doing that. Yeah, but you did a great job. That's what's tough is you're just like, you don't know if it was a success until the end. The worst thing you can do is like, tell a joke and there's no laugh, then you're in trouble. Coming to the end here, what I'm curious to know when I always ask people like this because, you know, I'm sure that you're not done yet, you know, and I know you're getting into imposter syndrome and stuff. What's on the table? Like, what are you excited about? What can we see coming from you? I am very much at a identifying a chapter transition of my life. So I'm getting close to a, so it's a very timely question. Again, very perceptive on your part. So there's a few ways I could answer that. Let me answer that in the most

abstract and idealistic way possible because those two words described me. 10 years ago I really started studying Buddhism and I'm not a Buddhist but I value and appreciate the insights and the philosophy and psychology if not religion and in Buddhism we value developing wisdom as distinct from knowledge so I spent a lot of my last 30 years trying to get smart and showing people that I'm a smarty pants which you can see you through the self-worth lens like oh I'm smart and I understand that and I can be compassionate and it got in the way sometimes and I like I like being smart or knowing things, but it's actually not the path to fulfillment or it's not the path where I want to go next. So I want wisdom.

So a big part of wisdom is compassion, actually. That's a big next chapter for me. So if I look back on the previous chapter was like get smart, be successful. Next chapter is be wise. I think it was before that my career was like go get adventure. So I'd travel around the world, live abroad, you know, that was cool. Those are things I wanted at this time, and I don't regret any of those. But I want to be a little more intentional.

So what's next for me is to cultivate wisdom and compassion, which is to alleviate other people's suffering. So that's my mission, and it's been there for a while, but I'm about to transition. Some number of years here in the future I will transition out of this context. So that might take the place of being a chaplain or working in hospice or working in a prison or I don't know, but something that's a very different context than what I'm in now.

More concretely, I think a lot about coaching and training other coaches in a very holistic way. So trying to bring some of these things that we just talked about and learned to a coaching context. And then also I have a little business. It's called Vogue Academy with my work colleague, Matt Frawley, who's awesome. I learned a lot from Matt. He's an existential philosopher, Kierka Guardian expert. and we're trying to bring a real deep, holistic approach to achievement, work, success, but not into the superficial level, not productivity hacks, but understanding what humans want

are meaning, purpose, and fulfillment. And skills and strategies and productivity have a place in that. But I like to sometimes say, like, purpose over productivity. If you look out there in the world, people have achieved a lot and also feel good about it, They're driven by often altruistic aims, fascination, to go back to that word you said at the beginning. They have a fascination. That fascination is coupled with a passion. Share that with somebody else.

So I think that's the challenge for me right now in my life is to find a new ways to do that that are appropriate to my life phase, but also to help other people do that through the platform of OVE Academy or something else. And I think coaching, which I've been doing for 25 years, I've never really really. written it down. And so I'm kind of working on that. It's fascinating. I love the way you explained your relationship with Buddhism, because that's very similar to us. We don't really practice a religion, which is why we like Buddhism, because it's not a religion. So we don't call ourselves Buddhists, but it's kind of our jam. I love the concept of wisdom, as you can imagine. I always explain that people that are wise speak softly and carry a big stick. And the big stick is

typically listening rather than talking. So that's, that's fascinating. What's interesting, though, is that you mentioned kind of your mission statement is to help people, was it navigate or remove suffering? Aliveate suffering. I might say fundamental Buddhist. Well, what's funny is, because the Buddhists say that it's about embracing it and understanding what it is and it, and, you know, the whole path. So that's, that's fascinating. You're, you're, you seem like you're very, very much on a self-actualization course and you're going to pay this stuff forward to some people. That's going to be really cool. I'm excited to find out about that.

You know, it sounds like I got you at a good time. Yeah. Well, it really begs a question, if I may. What's up for you? Oh, boy. Like I said, my mission is to unveil something that I don't think the world is aware of. On the surface, we understand that there's some sort of, there's an algorithm. them. I always say that our programmed and conditioned mind is calling the shots, and we think that

that's us. It's not us, right? I like to help people, I don't know if you've ever heard of Rupert Spira. You know, just a genius, a little too genius for most people, but I love to look at what it is that I call I as the thing that is actually doing the gazing. So I'm very fascinated with my sense-making machine and how it's been programmed from the outside and how it continuously is influence and persuaded. So I haven't even really begun. I mean, my podcast is one avenue, but I've started an academy that teaches this thing called the Interface Response System, which is really a method by which my book is launching in February. So I'm getting ready to share this concept with the world like, hey, I know you think that you're thinking for yourself,

but let me just show you another possible scenario that's going on. And on the side of that, I'm also very, very much having fun and experiencing in the Amazon jungle for years now, plant medicine. I've experienced that whole realm, which has been just crazy. I just think there's so much more. There's so much more going on than any of us know. And the last thing that I'll share with you that usually melts people's brains a little bit is there's something right now that I think is extremely fascinating that humans kind of think that we're like this baseline reality and everything that is created. You know, we're doing that.

So here we are. Everybody's like freaking out about AI. Oh, no, AI is going to take over and all of that stuff. and humans are supposedly creating AI. And then I go, well, have you ever wondered if maybe we're actually such an advanced form of AI that we don't think we are? So I like to play in that ground as well. Yeah.

So at the end of the day, I want to teach people how to think for themselves, but I also want to remind people, it's kind of a game. It's all a game. So that's what I love about your stuff is what I catch myself. procrastinating because I know Nick Vogue, I'll kind of chuckle about it. I'll say, oh, look at that. Gotcha, gotcha. But then I'll also allow myself to say whether or not I want to use it or not. You know, you speak about something that I love. You know, well, there's one thing that we have to understand that, you know, we don't have to be like focused all the time. You know,

that's what Chris Bailey says. There's some value in lollygagging and doing nothing. And In fact, is that where most of the creative process takes place, right? Absolutely. Yeah, the psychological term is mind wandering. I like, that has a little negative kind of. I made up my own word, mind roving, but I think a little bit better. You just, yeah, that is, the creative insight and spark is often not an intentional act of recall or focus. There's places for that, but often, often not.

I love it. Hey, thanks so much for being here. We'll put all the links and connections to, you know, reach out to you, his social media, but also his courses. And as soon as we find out about this next step, we'll let people know. Maybe we'll have you back. I really enjoyed this conversation. Me too. I can't wait to see your book.

Man, I am stoked. I love this idea. So think about the three letters, the interface response system. What does that spell? IRS. But it's going to be the kind you love. I love it. All right, Nick, thank you so much for being here.

And we'll definitely have you back on the show. And we'll see you next time. Thanks so much, J.C. It was great. I really enjoyed it. Makes sense.