Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Making Sense of Domestic Violence with Lindsay Abernathy - Episode 95

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This podcast covers topics that expand human consciousness and performance. On the Make Sense podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works. And that perception is a subjective and acquired taste. When you change the way that you look at things, the things that you look at begin to change. The Make Sense podcast is sponsored and primarily funded by the Make Sense Academy. Our private community, where open and curious seekers of growth and expansion, apply the make sense principles and systems to move from simply going through life to growing

Starting point is 00:00:40 through life. So check out the Make Sense Academy, risk-free, for less than you'll spend today on shit that you don't need. Welcome, my friends, to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. Dornick podcast. Makes sense. Today's episode is about making sense of domestic violence, and our special guest is none other than Lindsay Abernathy. Lindsay Abernathy's journey is one of transformation, known for her roles in productions like Fast Five and The Walking Dead, as well as the Avengers Assemble, Lindsay's on-screen

Starting point is 00:01:21 was just a mask for her personal battle that was taking place off-screen. As a survivor of domestic violence and abuse, she turned her mess into her message. As an advocate now, she has created a platform where survivors of domestic violence and abuse can find solidarity and strength. Her podcast, Bitch is a Bad Word, is a testament to her commitment to breaking the silence and stigma surrounding domestic violence. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, Lindsay Abernathy. Welcome to the Make Sense podcast. We were just chatting about. this, but I think it's relevant to open this up. Everybody kind of knows who you are now. I love meeting people synchronistically when I go back and say, how did I meet you? You know, like,

Starting point is 00:02:08 because sometimes in podcast land, we kind of attack people and say like, hey, you want to be on my podcast and things like that. That's not the way it worked. I just somehow mindlessly scrolling, came across your podcast called Bitch is a Bad Word, which would probably stop anybody to find out what it was about. And then I noticed that it was kind of a new show that was coming out. out and I paid attention to it and listened in and I got the concept and I thought it was awesome. So my initial intention had no agenda other than to say, hey, good luck, guys. This is a great idea. This is anything I can do to help. Never once did I think that I would be on bitch is a bad word. Nobody's ever called me a bitch. Well, actually, probably somebody has. If you look back, you probably.

Starting point is 00:02:50 Yeah, actually, actually, I had the honor and privilege of being on their show and it was a really cool, relevant topics. So, you know, make sure you check that out. In preparing for this, found out a little bit about your background in acting. And, you know, we're big Walking Dead fans. So it was fun to kind of like, well, who was she in Walking Dead? And I remember that. That was a pretty big part of the show, you know, when moved into the village. So the whole family is like thinking that you're like this super rock star famous person because everybody loves the Walking Dead. So anyway, there's that. But what's more interesting to me to kick things off now, because we're going to make sense of domestic violence. And when I just told my group about this an hour ago, they go, what's the episode called?

Starting point is 00:03:35 And I said, we're going to make sense of domestic violence. And a lot of them have experienced it. And they go, good luck with that. And I said, well, we're not making sense of it in the sense of saying what's okay about it. We're making sense of why it happens, how it happens, how we don't know that it's happening, and how we can help other people maybe get ahead of it. But let's start a little bit about the background, because when I go back and look at you in your roles that you were playing,

Starting point is 00:04:01 I would assume that that was just a facade that was covering up what was going on behind the scenes. So just kind of take us through the, how did you get to this place where you're now becoming an advocate and you have this awesome podcast talking about domestic violence? Well, it's interesting that, you know, I lived and worked in a world that is very make-believe, right? And so everybody is pretending to be something they're not and enjoying doing it. And I think what was interesting is when I was on that show, The Walking Dead, I started on this pilot as the main character stand in,

Starting point is 00:04:40 and then I moved into the role of Rowan, who was the sort of mayor of Woodbury or governors, as we know, a lady friend. And I was on the biggest show in the world and I was in a new relationship with somebody who was super supportive of it, thought it was super amazing, thought that like how cool is it that you're on the show, you're an actor, blah, blah, and then they flip. And everything, as we were learning in domestic abuse, like everything that they valued in me and thought was badass and amazing, they start chipping away and devaluing you. Like, why would you want to be an actor? Why would you want to be away from your kids for so long? Why would you want to, if you're kissing someone on this show, that means you're cheating. And all actors are liars.

Starting point is 00:05:23 And it sort of like flip my world upside down of like the things that they were suggesting were super amazing, are we're now a point of contention. So what we're learning is that that's the goal. That's what they do. They start making you feel kind of crazy. Like maybe I am cheating on you if I have a kissing scene or maybe, you know, maybe this isn't the right place to be a mother. And you start believing.

Starting point is 00:05:46 leaving their bullshit. That's really interesting. And I wonder if this is very prominent in how things start. I've interviewed Nadine McAluso, Wolf of Wall Street. She was on your show as well. And, you know, she explains a similar story how this guy kind of like targeted her and made sure everything looked all nice, nice, but then all of a sudden flipped the switch. Do you think that people that are in the limelight per se, whether it's like a powerful job or an acting career, is that a common target? Because what I always assumed, it would be somebody that would have some sort of a weakness displayed that could be controlled, or maybe it was an unconscious thing. Maybe this guy didn't know. Those are great questions because we're just trying to unpack that ourselves.

Starting point is 00:06:33 What I have understood and what I'm learning from speaking to so many women with similar situations, that these pathological people all possess a similar trait. So it's their goal is to to exert power and control over you in whichever way or however they are able to do that. I don't think that these people are attracted to weak people. I think that, you know, a cat doesn't want to play with a dead mouse. So if you are able to give them some sort of pushback or opinion or, you know, at first they sort of, they like that challenge, right? Because they're intellectual people.

Starting point is 00:07:09 So they're, I think, too, trying to figure out like what they can get away with. So they want to push those boundaries. I will say that the boundaries that they're pushing are probably very weak and not really surrounding. Like I didn't have, I sort of had peripheral boundaries. I was working through a failed marriage. I had some things like deep down and I had some children issues like growing up, mother wounds, etc.

Starting point is 00:07:35 That I hadn't worked through. So I will say that there was part of my story and part of my personality that could have been easily manipulated. But I had also like strong. convictions and I felt like pretty solid in other parts of my life. So what these people tend to do is they're convenience men, they're conmen. They mirror back. You're sitting with them first date and you just can't believe how many similarities you have like, oh, you love that too. Oh, really? Like, oh, underwater basket weaving is your favorite hobby. So is mine. Let's start a club and do it

Starting point is 00:08:10 together. And you're like, I can't believe that everything I love, this person loves too. And like, We've only known each other eight minutes. What they're doing is they're taking inventory of your strengths, your weaknesses, the things you like, and they're going to start like mirroring that back to you. So you start really kind of going into their like vortex very easily at this point. And they're sort of closing in on this. So part of you where you're like, you saw the red flags. They were sort of like flogging you in the face a little bit, but you're like, hold on.

Starting point is 00:08:41 Maybe that's just me and it's not them. and they didn't really mean to say that. And so some of the things that they do, and this is what I learn is like, they're just sort of trying to penetrate your boundary a little bit. And when you let the little thing slide, then they're like, well, I got away with that. So let's push it up.

Starting point is 00:08:55 And to answer the other question, like I don't know that there's this Dr. Evil handbook that they're all reading from. It seems like they all share this playbook, like passing around like porn would, you know, whatever in middle school, like the Dirty Mag. But they have to be doing it subconsciously as well. Because it's like your life

Starting point is 00:09:12 is moving in one direction. It's not like it's a pre-planned life, right? So it's just like they pick up on cues or they just see like, oh, yeah, she said yes to this. So, or she pushed back on this. But eventually you get to the point where the arguments become so ridiculous. The gaslighting becomes so intense that for me, I just sort of like gave up. I just start like, okay, whatever you want to do. I can't fight this fight anymore. And you sort of start giving in. And then that's when they can come over with this like power play. What's really interesting to me, I'm going to kind of take it as a personal thing right now because I'm a man, right?

Starting point is 00:09:49 And I'm far from perfect. But I'm just one of these guys that like could never, ever, ever, ever do something like that. Which I would assume people that are abusive have said at one time. But I mean, I'm 53 and I've got to, I can validate it now. But I've got a daughter. Here's my question. Because from a proactive approach, it sounds like what you just shared with me is that unknowingly, you were a little bit of a target because you had some unresolved issues or something that

Starting point is 00:10:22 somebody could take advantage of. But you didn't know that. And having never experienced anything like this before, you're like, this can't happen to me. And you would wave off, wave off, wave off. So I understand that. But I guess my question is, do you have a daughter as well? Mm-hmm. Two. Okay, great. So you can totally relate. What can we do to proactively empower our kids or specifically daughters, but also I have two boys that I'm trying to raise up like gentlemen. How much control do we have over that? I mean, is this all about their upbringing?

Starting point is 00:10:54 Some people say that it is like as a part of it. But I think the most important thing we can teach our children and our daughters in particular is the power of saying no. And I was brought up to be nice, give him a hug. you know, you're like, give Uncle Johnny a hug. He'll be upset if you don't. And like, you're like, I don't really want to hug Uncle Johnny, but you have to do it anyway. Just be nice, be nice. And so I think that when I was brought up, it was like all about saying yes, all about being polite, all about being nice. And when we're taught to be nice and go against our own intuition,

Starting point is 00:11:28 that's telling us in our gut, no, we have this inner conflict. And I think that you don't want to disappoint anyone or let anybody down. So you say yes, even though you know it's a no. And what I've learned in this experience is that I was feeling those butterfly effects. I was feeling disconnected from this person. There were red flags. There were a bunch of things that weren't aligning with me, like in my vibration. And I ignored it because I, you know what, they seem like a really nice guy. They probably didn't mean it. I should give them a chance. Give them another chance. I'm teaching my daughter like, you have the absolute right autonomy to get up on the first time someone makes you feel uncomfortable. You don't have to finish the drink. You don't have to finish the date. You don't have to,

Starting point is 00:12:15 you can just walk out. And I think when we start empowering women, my favorite word on the show is like, if she's bossy, she's a bitch. But why is a man not a bitch for being bossy or assertive or saying no to things? And just women are just taught this, the be nice factor. And it's going to get you to trouble. And I think, too, we're also like in this Disney indoctrination of like you're waiting for your prince to come and somebody's going to save you. It's like we need to be teaching these young girls to save their damn selves. Nobody needs to come to save you. Somebody should come and join you on this journey. But the fact that you're just sitting there like helpless and one day your prince will come is setting everybody up for master manipulators because they're the Prince Charmings.

Starting point is 00:13:00 they're the con men who are, and I have to say this so loud, it's these people, pathological people, they are reading you. They want to know your weaknesses. They want to know your strengths because they can weaponize it later. We say on the show that these people put all of your strength and weaknesses in their narc fault, and they hold it there for who knows how long until they feel that they need it. So if you've ever shared something like, well, my mom was horrible to me when I was growing up. They'll be like, oh, my mom was horrible to me growing up. And then later, when you, when they need to take power over you, they're like, you're so bad, you're such a bad mom because your mom treated you like shit. And so they weaponized your past. And then all the things that were once strengths about

Starting point is 00:13:43 you, like, oh, you're strong-willed or you have this opinion. Oh, God, she doesn't shut up. She's so opinionated. Like, you're just such a bitch. So if you're not taught to say no, and you're not taught to forge your own path and make your own way and you are right for the taking, I think, from a person like this. But we've spoken to doctors, lawyers. There's a judge coming on the show that ended up in the situation. Like there's like no boundaries. There's no, you could have a great childhood or not, but there's some kind of, there's something that you attract. And for the boys that were raising, it's like, when she says no, the first time, that's what she means, like, and you have to respect that. And I have boys and I say that all, like, I get so heated. Like, they said no.

Starting point is 00:14:25 No, it's one time. It's not an invitation for more of a conversation or invitation to negotiate. No, is hard. Stop. We're done. So those are how I'm trying to reprogram myself and my kids. And, you know, for me, when I left, I had spent many years in a domestically abusive relationship that I didn't, didn't believe was abusive because it wasn't physical at the beginning. So, and what we say, it's like, it's very insidious. So things would be happening and then I'd be like, oh, you know, but then you get mixed up in life, Right? Life moves forward and you're busy and you have kids and you're building businesses or whatever's happening in sort of a chaos of your life. And for me, I grew up in a chaotic life growing up. So chaos felt like home. Chaos felt familiar. This sort of toxic person felt like mom. And that's why I kind of ignored it for a little while.

Starting point is 00:15:14 But as my kids were getting older and as they, my daughters were getting older and there was just one very bad, horrible night that changed the trajectory of all of our lives. I just looked at one of my daughters who was witnessing this and I was like, this ends with me because she's going to find somebody who reminds her of this upbringing. And that person is going to hurt her emotionally, physically or otherwise. And I looked at my son and I thought, you're going to think that this is the way that you are going to treat a woman and you're going to hurt somebody or man or your partner, whoever you're with. You're going to end up being this person because you're going to find this familiar. So it stops now. I'm done. I'm out. We're gone.

Starting point is 00:15:55 And anybody who's listening are at that point, like, that's really, if you have children, they're watching. We all know this. So, and they're emulating. And you're going to keep, these are generational traumas that need to be broken at some point. So fascinating and frightening. Because there's another piece of it where, you know, there's a whole matter from Mars, one or from Venus. And then attached to that as natural selection, right?

Starting point is 00:16:20 There's the role of the man. And one thing that's, I'm curious about right now, and I would have seen. assume you have some sort of a finger on the pulse of this is, is domestic violence getting worse than it used to be? Because back in the old days, women didn't have a voice like they have now. They weren't supposed to say no. But I wonder what the trend is. Is it more prominent now? I mean, I know we have more people in the world right now. Or did things used to be even worse? Statistically, it's one and, like, it's one and four. I mean, I think it's also like that's reported. So we're probably close, like one in three women are in a domestic abusive relationship. So like you're standing at Starbucks,

Starting point is 00:16:56 you're in your meeting, you're somewhere, somebody's being abused in some way. I think that women are now feeling safer to speak. I think that there's more platforms. I mean, domestic violence is trending right now, which is wild. And it shouldn't be. But maybe it's a great thing because people are feeling like more people are talking and then you're feeling less isolated. Back in the day, you didn't say anything. It's like you, I mean, I didn't say anything. I lived in a very affluent neighborhood. we went our kids went to private schools. I drove a range rover. I had all the bags and the watches. And I'm like, I can't be talking about this shit to people at the country club. Like, no one's sitting down and be like, well, how was your abuse last night, Tina? Like, it's not happening. So you're just like, you live in this

Starting point is 00:17:40 fake world. It's like the things that are happening behind closed doors shouldn't be talked about. And I'm not from the old world. So this was happening to me. And it felt like very, you carry a lot of shame. And I have to say that that's like the feeling. It's like, I can't believe that this is what I'm going through. I can't believe I'm allowing someone to talk to me like this or do something like this. But then you're in the cycle of abuse, right? So they're not mean all the time. They're not always abusing you all the time.

Starting point is 00:18:08 And I say this in every show I go on. You're not sitting down on the first date and they're punching you in the face and you're staying. That's not what abuse looks like. It is a slow burn. So as it's happening, you're looking at yourself and you're like, how am I going to pay the bills? How are the kids going to stay in private school? We have a mortgage. I'm a stay-at-home mom.

Starting point is 00:18:27 So a lot of people, by their situational standards, they can't leave. They don't have the ability or the funds or the resources. So what I think is important is that people are talking about it a little bit more because we have more access. But I think the definition of abuse is being more defined. And it's not just physical. It's not the poster of like a man coming home and his wife. beater and beating the shit out of his wife after a bad day of work and, you know, in their trailer.

Starting point is 00:18:56 That's not happening. That's like, is happening. But it's also happening in highly affluent neighborhoods with all the access to everything. But the abuse doesn't have to just be physical. So we understand that it can be coercive. So you're like, that's a huge word right now to really understand coercive control, emotional abuse in some countries as being litigated as part of the domestic abuse conglomerate, if you will. And then you've got, financial abuse and physical abuse and sexual abuse. Any one of these, check any of these boxes, you are a domestically abused person. And somebody who has power and control over you or you can't make decisions, you have no

Starting point is 00:19:36 autonomy, that person is abusing you. And what we see is, and just from my experience is speaking to women, it starts one way. It starts, you know, they might say some bad words. They may say some things that, you know, aren't super nice to you. And then you're like, what the fuck did you just say? And you kind of have a fight, right? Then they're like, oh, this is great. This is where I was talking about the like cat playing with the dead mouth. So like, oh, we're on. So they're looking for a head of dopamine. You are the supply. I'm going to say this. As the supply, you're also addicted to the dopamine situation.

Starting point is 00:20:07 This is an addiction as well. Explain that because this is a fascinating part of the conversation. Now, on a much more diluted level, everybody calls my wife, chicken. She's going to be on your show. at some point, but chicken likes a good fight. And there's this connotation that a fight is healthy for a relationship. I never understood that. And she hates fighting with me because, you know, I'm the guy that just goes, you know, I don't check out, but I just say, I want to hear you out, sweetie. But what she really wants is she wants me to kind of meet her on the playing field. Now, that's a diluted version of it. But explain to me, having been through it, did you find yourself somewhat attached and tethered and addicted to the behavior?

Starting point is 00:20:54 So we talk about this trauma bond, right? So when you're in this trauma bond, it's a toxic attachment to your perpetrator. On the other side, too. So whatever it is, however you have developed, grown and morphed into this couple, and this is how you do, you are looking for validation at any opportunity you can get. And so it's typically like in an argument, you know, we talk about pushing back or reactive abuse are all these horrible things that people have taken way too far because they're getting triggered and they don't know how to manage their life or how their emotions in the situation.

Starting point is 00:21:29 It's like you're in an argument with somebody. In this argument, you have to remember you're not you. You're like you sound like a very like level-headed non-pathological person. A pathological person is having an argument with you while they're gaslighting you, while they're projecting their own shit. Like when they're accusing you of things that didn't happen. the way, if your abuser is accusing you of things, they are already doing them. They are telegraphing. All the things they're doing. So normally you're in these arguments that are not about like the one thing.

Starting point is 00:22:01 It's like it started with, you know, I didn't like the way you said that. In a normal healthy relationship, you would say, oh, I'm so like I didn't, you know, how do I fix it? You like, you're there to make it better. I'm sorry that I made you feel this way. I'll, you know, let's do whatever we can to make it better. In a toxic attachment, you're like, I didn't like the way that you said that. Well, last week at 2.30, I didn't like the way you said that shit when you were picking up the kids and then you didn't get milk and then you were late and like what happened and how, like, have you been spending too much money today? And you're like all of a sudden you're in this like warped conversation where they're pulling from the narc fault. It's like word salad. They're trying to confuse you because they carry so much shame. And you were pointing out something they've done wrong. And a narcissistic, toxic person does not want to be told. that they're bad. You're never going to get your validation you need from somebody who is riddled with shame because they can't. They see it as a personal attack on them. So how fun is that argument? So what happens is like it keeps escalating, escalating, escalating until you're just like screaming

Starting point is 00:23:09 and everything, like you're like, you don't even know where you are and you're on some sort of like other planet in this conversation. A normal person is exhausted. And you're like, I just want to say, well, like, I'm done. You know what? Actually, I don't care how you talked to me the other day. Like, I'm fine. Yeah, I am a piece. Like, whatever. Yeah, I was, and you want to, like, shut it down. Right. But they can move on like that. They're like, hey, what's for breakfast? And you're just, like, exhausted and you need to, like, crawl in bed and take a break. And your, like, hair is falling out. And for them, they're like, okay, I didn't have to take any accountability. And so I'm good. Let's move on. Let's go have fun. And so then you're like, okay.

Starting point is 00:23:49 And to go kind of back to like long winded of why you're attached, this toxic attachment, is that that is so painful for a normal person to experience something like that. And you're like literally like no validation, no accountability, no nothing. And so you're like, then they can switch it. And they're like, you're so amazing. You're the best. They're back into this like love bombing. They love you again.

Starting point is 00:24:14 They like you for whatever you're offering them. So you're like, what do I have to do to keep this person here? I will change, adapt. I'll cut my hair. I'll change my clothes. Like people do some crazy shit to keep that person liking them for who they are right now. But you are on a freaking like hamster wheel in an upside down clown show with this person. There's nothing you'll ever be able to do to appease them because they're broken.

Starting point is 00:24:40 Is it most commonly associated and connected with substance abuse, alcohol, drugs, cheating? I mean, I can say yes to all of those things. But I'm saying commonly is that just from my personal experience, when I hear these stories, you know, I just, the other day heard this amazing young lady who knows she's going to get divorced because of all of this. But she's going to do it in six months when the kids are X, Y, Z and all of that stuff, you know. And to a degree, I look at her in two ways. I look at her as just like a courageous brave. woman for being what's going through what she's gone through. But at the same time, I'm like,

Starting point is 00:25:21 how could anybody justify anything? So tell me, tell me the correlation of the substance abuse and maybe a little bit about why someone like that is, is like actually saying, I'm going to leave, but in a certain amount of time. Like, they'll plan their exit. The planning of an exit, an exit strategy in a domestically abusive relationship is very important. And so I'll answer that piece first. If she has a plan for six months and he's not aware of it, she's in a good spot. If she's scrolling money away, if she's getting copies of her documents to somebody else, if she is like sorting her shit out, that's great. But the thing I would tell her is she can't tell him she's leaving in person.

Starting point is 00:26:03 She needs to leave. She needs to get safe. And then she has that phone call or conversation, not with him in the room. Because that's the most dangerous time for a woman is when she's telling her abuser she's leaving. So, and you shouldn't, in the healthy. of breakups, you shouldn't be, you don't need to have the conversation in person. I mean, you, it's okay. You can have that conversation because you're going to be convinced. Let me dig deeper into that. Because another thing that I hear, and you can share your own personal

Starting point is 00:26:29 experiences, even when somebody is 100% sure that they're going to exit and they haven't told their partner and all of that stuff, to a certain degree, they still love the person that they married and that might prompt them to want to in some way do right by the person, like maybe tell them in person or something like that. I would assume that somebody listens to this podcast and you're like, here's the way you should do it, but they'll still say, yeah, but I still love him. What's about that? I did it. I was in love or I don't even know what I was. I think I was in trauma because what I went through and what I was dealt was not love. I know that now. But I felt obligated. I felt like I need to do the right thing. Now, I left with no plan, no money. I had 40 bucks in

Starting point is 00:27:15 my wallet. And I was like, I'm leaving like now. And it was packed the car. We're not coming back. Because it was super hectic. And I assumed everything would work out on the other side. Like, okay, well, you know, we have a bunch of money. We're going to split all this up. But I just have to get out and I have to get safe because it's this dangerous right now. That didn't work out for me that way. Another component to the story is like post separation abuse is really real, financial abuse, litigation abuse. We can get into that in a minute. But somebody planning their exit, they are in love. And so like what I would do because I was still traumatically, like I was in this trauma bond. I was in this toxic bond. Even when I left, a few days go by and they're like,

Starting point is 00:27:57 oh, wait, you're not coming back. And you're no, I'm not coming back. Well, I'm so, sorry, like they're sending you all the memes of like the relationship advice that they found on Instagram. They're going to go to therapy. They're going to stop drinking. They're going to stop doing all the bad things. And you're still hooked. So like even your friend or the woman you spoke to, she's going to need to take a long beat of no contact. I didn't follow this advice. So I was getting sucked back in all the time. Like I never went back. We never like emotionally, never went back and we never hooked up. Like I talked to so many people are like, I just went back and then we had sex and and then we're back together.

Starting point is 00:28:30 And I never did that. But I was thinking, because we had kids and our kids were young, that we could have, like, a co-parenting relationship. And we could go for dinner after football or whatever. It's not reality. If you're leaving your partner for a divorce because you've just fallen out of love, like, even in that situation, it's hard to, like, co-parents or be friends or, like, hang out for a while.

Starting point is 00:28:50 You need a break. But if you're an abusive relationship, you need, like, rewiring, reprogramming, because they're still controlling you. They're going to start using the kids as they're, proxies. They're going to start, well, the kids are really sad that you're not here for dinner. I can't tell you. I've dozens of text messages like begging to come over for a barbecue or they put the kids on the phone and like, please, mommy, come over for it. Like, we really, it'd be so nice if we could all have dinner together. And so then you're not healing. You've got a lot of healing to do and you're

Starting point is 00:29:17 going back and you're getting sucked in and then you're making choices that you wouldn't necessarily make otherwise. For me, we were in a court situation. He's like, drop your lawyer, do this. Well, I'll make it right. And he never made it right. But he was. able to do it because I was still bonded to him. And so I believed his bullshit. I believed him. And I was like, I mean, I love this man at one point. I very quickly realized I did not love him and I would never go back. But I thought that I could imagine us having a peaceful co-parenting life. And it's not possible. The best thing anyone can do is not engage because like parenting apps are important. You don't have to talk to this person every day. There's nothing unless there's like a finger

Starting point is 00:30:02 that's missing off your kid or like a major emergency that can't be done in an email or on your own time. You have to remember that you are their supply, their dopamine hit, and you have now taken their supply away. So they are desperate. Addicts do desperate things. Toxic people do desperate things. They'll do anything to get you back until they can find their new supply. You're in a really, I would say, dangerous situation. I've spoken to some people, detectives, especially. They're like, you know, most abusers are like not intending to kill anybody. There's not a bunch of murderers around, like they're going to kill you, but like emotionally dangerous, you go back.

Starting point is 00:30:38 They're going to be the best version of themselves for what, a week, two weeks. They're not going to do it long term. They can't. But for those two weeks or those 10 days or if you're financially dependent on them and they're controlling the money and they're making it very hard for you to live, you're going to be enticed to go back. But it's not going to change and it's going to get worse. And you don't need to stick around and try to figure it out with them. That's something that they can do independently on their own. But if you have the courage and you're badass enough to leave, you know you've made

Starting point is 00:31:08 the right decision and you need to stay gone and stay disconnected. And you need to also work on your addiction to them and work on filling your own cup and figuring out like what you need. It's like a hard situation. I spent, I would say the first year after I left. And I brought my kids back in such bad situations. Like, sure, we can spend Christmas together. And Christmas is a fucking nightmare. And everybody's crying. And like, because a toxic person, narcissists in particular love to ruin a good time.

Starting point is 00:31:38 They don't want you to have a birthday. They don't want you to like, Christmas is like, it's not about them. So they're like the worst gift givers. They want to spoil it for everybody. And they're going to start a fight. So like, know this and like have a look back on your life and go, did we ever have fun? Every vacation? Nope.

Starting point is 00:31:54 Everything. Nope. They hate it. You can't go back to the place that hurt you and you shouldn't bring your kids back. You just have to like agree to live completely separate lives. And it's unfortunate in some ways as far as like what we're being told is like a healthy relationship. But I spoke to a woman, Kate Anthony, she's amazing. I was like, I stayed for so long because I thought that I could control the environment that we were in a hundred percent of the time. I hated the idea that I would be leaving. And then my. kids like I wouldn't know the moods or I wouldn't know if he was the drinking. I wouldn't know. And she's like, flip that in your mind and imagine you leaving and you're giving them 50% of an

Starting point is 00:32:36 amazing experience. 50% of a healthy, not toxic, safe place for them to come and re-regulate. So you know what it's going to be like when they're over there. And then maybe it'll be better. Maybe like because you've removed all the bad shit, maybe it's not horrible over there 50% of the time anymore. But it's sort of none of your damn business. So just make your house, your place, so safe and so regulated that your kids can come and have a 50% shot of some sort of relief. When I heard that and I was realizing, wow, I keep dragging my kids through my shit. I'm upset. And then I'm engaging with him and we're still fighting. And like, so they're all sensing all that. And like, I'm looking around going, oh, I'm still in it, even though we don't.

Starting point is 00:33:24 don't live together. So until I went complete no contact, I was still being abused. And I'm post-separation abuse going back to that. That's what I'm living through right now. It's like anything this person can do to make my life miserable, they try it. And you're like, what's the point? You know, like if you want to make the mother of your children suffer emotionally, financially, you're like, you're a special kind of bad word. I try not to use the male anatomy me because that's what my whole purpose is, like, telling the guys to stop. Well, isn't that funny how it's okay to, like, why can't there be a dick is a bad word? Right.

Starting point is 00:34:05 You know what I'm saying? Someone should start out. But that's kind of an example of some of the inequality that still exists. It's like it's okay to just openly talk about one thing and not the other. Let me ask you a question. I know that there's going to be a lot of people listening. And keep in mind, we have an international group of people. I have this very strange thing about my podcast where Middle Eastern men hit on me all the time.

Starting point is 00:34:29 So I don't know if they're going to get this, but I know that there's different cultures and things like that where there's different levels of acceptance of what is normal. I mean, like, all you're going to do is go on Instagram and you'll see like a bunch of like Middle Eastern guys like whipping a woman. And it's like it's like a celebration of some sort. So to whatever degree you would be willing to share like the experience that you had of I think that people need to know, like, what is the limit that would prompt somebody to justify getting the hell out? I mean, like, how did you know? You talk about this one night.

Starting point is 00:35:03 I don't know how much you'd want to share about that. But, like, how do you know what's enough? It's one thing if I, if things get heated and somebody says, ah, he calls your names or that's where the bitch is a bad word comes from, I would assume. Your childhood didn't call you a bitch. I said, bitch is a bad word, dad. Those kind of things can be smoothed over. I mean, I've gotten into arguments with my wife. And then the next day I go, hey, you know, I took a responsibility of, I'm not love bombing her or anything.

Starting point is 00:35:29 I was like, that was stupid what I said. I apologize. But we're not talking about that kind of stuff. Like there's somebody listening thinking, well, mine's not that bad. A lot of people think that. My relationship isn't abusive enough. I say to people, I used to feel that way. I was in this relationship for a very long time.

Starting point is 00:35:45 And I used to think the same thing. Well, it's not really that bad or what's like I've contributed to this somehow. Like maybe. if I hadn't said this or maybe if I had done this. And I would spend a lot of time in this cycle with this person. And what they would do to me is they would do something called future faking. So we were, you know, he's an entrepreneur. We're building a business. We've got two young kids. We're renovating a house. We're like all the things that are just like in a healthy relationship are going to test it. They would say when this happens, life will be better. And then when this happens,

Starting point is 00:36:18 So then that thing would happen. Life would not be better. In fact, it could be worse, but they future fake. So then you spend this time, you're not really like in the moment and you're just like looking at the other side of like the fence where all the grass is greener. And as soon as you guys can get there, your life will be better. But you don't know when you go to bed at night, they're moving that fucking fence. So you're never going to get to like to the grass that's green because their goal is to keep you in this power and control moment, right? So you are being. more dependent on them. And so like my situation, I'm a stay at home mom. What don't I have an income? What don't I have access to? Money. I was a kept woman and I should be proud of that.

Starting point is 00:36:59 Like, you don't have to worry about bills. All your dumb friends having to pay bills and their dumb relationships. Like, oh, look at them working. Ew, gross. So I would be sitting there going, yeah, but like, can I please have a debit card? I have an email. I had to send to my person and I have two children with them at this point. I know we've talked about this a couple times. It's really important for me if I could have a card in my name because I would have cards, but they had his name. And so there'd be some places you would go and they're like, well, you're not this person. And then I like leave the shopping cart full or whatever. There was like a lot of these moments that I realize now were power plays, just a reminder of like who's in charge or the card would get declined or whatever. So I don't have

Starting point is 00:37:41 access to my own money, but I'm working really hard as a stay-at-home mom to provide. a home and take the kids to school and make breakfast, lunch, and dinner and all the things that a stay-at-home parent does that create value. But I had no way to take care of myself. So as the abuse ticked up, I and our stakes were higher, he would say, maybe a couple of times where there was like some physical stuff. And I'm like, I'm phoning 911. Like I called 911 twice, sent them away twice. And he would say, this is great. But guess what? If I'm in jail, who's going to pay the mortgage. The bank's not going to care that I'm in jail. The bank's going to come and take you and the kids and you're going to be on the street and you're going to be living in your car. And I believed it.

Starting point is 00:38:24 Honestly, I will say that I think that that would have made him happy. Like he wouldn't have given two shits if I was living in my car because I saw what he did after I left. He did everything he could to continue to financially abuse me and control the money so that I would live in my car so I could come back. And he would say, look, you've taken this too far. Lindsay, just come back and everything will be good. You'll get it all back. And I remember saying to him later, and then I'll get to like the night that I left. He was financially abusing me. I had no money, borrowing money, living off my family, like my parents were helping me. I had nothing. And we had millions of dollars, millions. And I'm like, how is this normal? Like, how are you okay with this? And then he had a better lawyer.

Starting point is 00:39:03 He had more money for a lawyer. And so he would just delay, delay, delay, delay, delay, every single court appearance. This is litigation abuse. And this is their, goal. They want you to burn out, run out of money, and either come home or just shut up and do whatever. So he would scream at me like, oh, get a fucking job. You're such a loser. Get a job. Get a job. I'm like, where am I going to work after being home for nine years, raising our kids? Like, come on. And I said, I created value for our family when I stayed home. Like, so you could go build your network, go build your business, go make a ton of money, make contacts and never leave the workforce, you know, make all this money. But I control.

Starting point is 00:39:43 contributed to that. And he's like, you did. But you took said value with you when you left me. And in that statement, I realized, this man is hell-bent on seeing me suffer. And so I need to go make my own way, one way or the other. But I also need to understand and have other women understand that that power and control doesn't end just because you left. So the night, as years went by and as things ticked up and physical things were happening, it's like one of the worst nights of my life, he was very physical, hit me in the face. It was horrible. I woke up in the morning and I couldn't breathe because it was really bad. And he's standing over me and he's crying. And he's saying, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did this. Da-da-da-da-da-da. And I started

Starting point is 00:40:27 taking care of him. I was like, it's okay. Oh my God. Like it's okay. It's okay. Because he was crying. Because he was crying. And I was like, he must have felt really bad. And he's like, and he was gaslighting me now that I realized like he was saying like, oh, well, if you hadn't done this, but then I looked back. I'm like, no, that actually never happened. Even if it did. Even if it did. And so later I found out that my older daughter heard the whole thing. She had come in the room. She had taken, she's like, mom, there was like blood everywhere and this. And it was, she told me like two years later that she had heard everything. And that just like broke me. So here's the fucked up part. He was like, I couldn't leave my room for like two weeks. And he's like,

Starting point is 00:41:05 I don't know what you're, we're going to have to tell the kids that fell. And we're going to have to tell the kids that like this is Like, because you can't really stay hidden. I said I was sick for a week. And so then then you're like lying to everybody you know. You're lying to protect your abuser. Really, that's what's happening. But you think, because you think you're protecting your kids, but you're really protecting your abuser.

Starting point is 00:41:23 So you're giving him more green lights to keep doing bad shit because he's saying, oh, so she'll protect me. Even though I did this bad thing to her, she's still protecting me. What I should have done is said, look what your dad did this. Like, you know, but you're too scared. You feel like you're going to fuck them up in the head if you tell them the bad things that are happening. They're in the bad things. They know it's happening one way or the other. So my daughter tells me this two years later. And then she's leaving for college. So I'm like, you know, oh my God.

Starting point is 00:41:51 I feel like, I used to say like, well, maybe when the kids turn this age, I can leave. And when the kids are like a little bit older, I mean, I was getting abused when I was nursing. So I definitely was like, how am I going to leave if I'm nursing? Like I have to share the baby like with him. So there was so many things that were happening that I like I kept saying when this happened. just like he was future faking, I was like, I can't wait until there are a certain age and then I can go. That's not safe. So all these years had happened. All this abuse had happened.

Starting point is 00:42:19 There'd be a lot of apologies. I'm sorry, lots of promises of things never happening. Or I'll give you all this if, you know, you just come back. And I left. So I want to say this too. The average woman leaves seven times before she leaves for good. So I left for a weekend or I'd leave for like a week or I'd leave and I'd go to my family's house and my family lives in Canada. so it's not like an easy going down the street.

Starting point is 00:42:41 And then I'd have to come back because I had kids. And then I'm a kidnapper. And then I'm, you know, so that you're like, okay. So I'm going to come back. And then I can't imagine how my dad must have felt. Like every time I left and he knew. And then I'm like, I have to go back. Like what a heart break.

Starting point is 00:42:55 Parents have been through so much with this situation as well. That's a big part of it too is the burden that you feel you're putting your parents through. Right? That's all my parents need is to deal with my. shit. I mean, I'm sure that that happens as well. It's like... It does. And you've also like lied to I say this all the time. You lie. You become this liar to protect your abuser and to protect your life. So, but they see through it. Your friends see through it. You know, my parents would come to visit and there'd be shit that would happen. I'm like, he's just having a bad day. Like, work is really hard right now.

Starting point is 00:43:28 I was excusing the shit out of him all the time. So my parents were like, no, it's not a bad day. This is a bad guy. Like, this is not okay. The night that I left, and it was, was in December before Christmas and my daughter had gone away to college. And so there was just like, he was having a cycle and he was in a huge mood swing and saying he's going to move to Mexico and like just crazy shit where I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. Like this is nuts. And I was staying in my daughter's room, which was really pissing him off. And I was like, I just don't want to like I just need a break. I don't want to sleep next to you right now. It's, you know, it's like chaos. He basically said like, if I didn't come upstairs and have sex with him,

Starting point is 00:44:10 anytime he demanded, I could go sleep in my car. And one of my kids heard that. And then at the same time, he made the threat, someone's going to die tonight. And it's not going to be me. So I'd made the decision at that point to believe him. And so many other times, I kept giving him forgiveness and going back.

Starting point is 00:44:29 And it never got better. So for whatever reason, and I hadn't listened to any podcast yet or anything like that. I think I was like finding things. on Instagram, like, am I in a bad relationship? And I remember Googling, am I in an abusive relationship? If you are Googling, are you an abusive relationship? You are. So I'll just save you the search. Like, I was trying to like, what is all this mean? Because I didn't know. But I decided that night that I was going to believe him. Because why not? I'm going to just

Starting point is 00:44:58 do that. So I put him to bed, like, go upstairs. It's fine. And one of the kids had woken up and I'm like, I'm just going to put our kid back to bed and I'll be up in a little bit. And in that moment, I sit up all night just packing clothes and handprint things off the wall. Like the things that I took are like I took all the ornaments, like handmade ornaments off the Christmas tree, like all the things. I had a storage unit full of the most random shit and I left all the cash on the table. You know, I'm like, I should have taken the cash. I can take the money.

Starting point is 00:45:30 But I just, yeah, I made the decision that what if this is real? What if he's telling it the truth? I'm going to believe him. And he gaslit me later. Literally, like in a text, he had sent me a message, like, just like you thought I was going to kill you. And I'm like, but you said it. And you said it in front of people that heard it. And you said it to me.

Starting point is 00:45:51 And now you're like, oh, as if. Like, that's abuse, people. It's on its face. He's like, yeah, so what, I said it. I didn't do it. Now you should come back. Let me ask you a question about the guy. I know that you don't know what it's like to be him, but I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into this.

Starting point is 00:46:08 I know that I was good at a certain time of my life at believing my own bullshit. Do you know what I mean? Like whether I was not like just in a conversation, like I could talk my way into believing that something that was complete bullshit was true. It's almost like curiosity about a serial killer. Like, do they actually know how bad what they're doing is? Because there's one side of it saying like these are diabolical. bad people that are manipulating people. And you can see that in their actions.

Starting point is 00:46:38 But then the other side is, is like, how could anybody ever do some? Are these people that actually believe that they're good people? I don't know if they believe that they're good people. I do know that they feel, but it's all shame-based. And it's like there is something in them. And I mean, mine would send me messages like, oh, that was my inner child. Like, he needs to calm down or whatever. It's like,

Starting point is 00:47:04 Well, yeah, you actually should explore that a little bit more because I think that's actually what it is. But these people, pathological people, toxic people, narcissists, like it's so important. Everybody's got a different, unless they go get diagnosed, which they're not going to get diagnosed, most likely. You don't know what it is. Is it a borderline personality disorder? Is it bipolar? You can kind of look back and see like all their actions might equal this diagnosis. But what I've noticed in a lot of them, him especially and what I've heard from other people,

Starting point is 00:47:34 people, it's not a Jekyll and Hyde either. They are that person. They've taken something too far. And so whether or not they've yelled at you, cursed it, you hit you, whatever it is that they've done to you, they can't imagine that they did that. They're disconnected from that person. They're in disbelief. Yeah. So when they did that to you and then they're like, oh my God, I cannot believe I did this. They can't be connected to it to themselves either. So there's like a disassociation. Too much pain involved in it. Yeah. So I don't think they're walking around going, oh, I'm a good person.

Starting point is 00:48:08 They will tell, like mine would tell, like, I am a good person. Like, I'm not this monster, you say, and I'm not this. And you're like, well, I mean, I don't know. I'll let you figure that out on your own. Yeah, yeah. And then you feel like you hear of these things, like, too, with the kids, it's like, well, you know, one woman was speaking to me. And she's like, he never hurt the kids, but he would be doing all this in front of them. So you're like, yeah, but then he's hurting the kids.

Starting point is 00:48:33 kids, you know, like it's by some definition. And, you know, we have a lot of people who come on bitches a bad word. We have a new segment called bitch sesh, where we invite women to come on and just share their story anonymously. We don't even have to turn the camera on. You can come and share just all the things and maybe just see me as a safe place to like sit and have a good old fashioned bitch sesh and tell me your story and have it out there. But every woman's stories is so similar. That's to me like what the hell is going on with these people. But I also want to touch back on something I meant to, I just sort of kept in my mind when you were talking about people from other countries. I have a foundation here and I live in San Diego, North County specifically, called the BFF Alliance.

Starting point is 00:49:14 And we are partnering with an amazing organization called One Safe Place. One Safe Place, when we went to go tour it to see if this was like a good alignment synergy, they have like a chapel in their organization. Didn't even consider it. And there was a Bible, there was a Quran, there were like every religion was represented in this, in this temple. And then there were, what, scars that you can put over your head if you're in this religion. And the head of the organization was telling us that there are two or three women who come in, their husbands think that they're going to the store, and they come to one place safe so they can pray. because their husband uses spirituality to abuse them and will not allow them to practice their faith

Starting point is 00:50:01 in their home as a way to abuse them. So I was like, oh, my God, really? And she said, yeah, so this is where they come and they come for 20 minutes and they do their prayers and they leave. And to think that that's possible, so like imagining what happens on the other side of the world in whatever countries, any time that someone is taking from you, you're a your power, your belief, you're whatever, that's abusive. That's not just like he kind of likes to control things.

Starting point is 00:50:31 You're like, in some countries, that's actually completely cool. I've been to the Middle East and you can interview a woman in a safe place and she'll say, yeah, that's the way it is here. I want to kind of finish up with talking a little bit more about your podcast and I'm glad you just mentioned this alliance because there's a lot of people hiding in the shadows, hiding in the in the in the bushes kind of like intuitively knowing that you're talking about them they're not maybe ready to admit it or maybe they've got some sort of a a strategy that they kind of know is not going to work as well how important is community and what is it that you're

Starting point is 00:51:08 trying to accomplish with bitches a bad word community is so important if you're in an abusive relationship because your abuser has isolated you most likely i can almost say 100 percent guaranteed. If they haven't fully isolated you, they are well on their way to putting you in a silo. And you are going to live in that silo and you're going to see the world only through their eyes. And you're going to start believing it. You're going to start living in this. And they're going, they start removing your support network. Your dad's an asshole. Your mom's bitch. Your friends are crazy. You should only listen to me. And things are we're really good when you don't bring other people. And if anyone's telling you not to talk about things to people, that's a red flag. Like,

Starting point is 00:51:51 you should have a support system. You should have a community. And on bitch is a bad word, podcast, it's like, what we're trying to do is get as many voices out there. We're trying to amplify the voice of these survivors of the voiceless. You are afraid to talk. You're not quite sure if you're in the abuse. And you've been removed from your community, from your besties. So we say on our show, we're building a bestie gang. And you can come here and like be a BFF stands for bitches fighting for freedom. And I think I invited you to the club. I think, when you were on my show and you're a bro fighting for freedom, which is super cool. Maybe the bros fighting for freedom will create some sort of a group that will go,

Starting point is 00:52:29 like, rescue women from their house or something. I will tell you that there's a few people who have said, and you have to be like, calm down. That's been the talk of, like, there are, like, missions that they will go in. And they're, like, we have to get you out. So at BFF, that's sort of one of our offerings is, like, we will meet you wherever you are on your journey. And this is a safe place. Listen, you may go back. If you go back, no judgment. You can't judge somebody when you've done it yourself. You can say, hey, I would not recommend doing it the way I did it,

Starting point is 00:53:03 but I get it. At least they're conscious of it. You didn't have somebody saying, this happens. So that's what's cool about your podcast, is somebody listening to this episode, hearing your story, is hearing some things that they've pretended weren't happening, but now at least they know that they are. and they're somewhat unfortunately normalized. I met a random stranger dropping my daughter off for her first dorm experience who met my ex. We lived in different states. She had two interactions with him. She's a total stranger.

Starting point is 00:53:35 But we bonded on like our first children going away to college. She's like, you are an abused woman. And I need you to hear that. And I'm like, who the fuck do you think you are? And then I was like, but thank you. Because nobody else in my life told me. And they all will tell you later. I knew.

Starting point is 00:53:52 I knew something was weird. I didn't want to say anything. This kind of goes back to like people want to mind their own business, take care of their side of the street on our show. We're like, I'm getting in your business. I'm going to be that bestie for you. I'm going to be that nosy neighbor that's going to say you are an abused woman. And it's time for you to take back your power and your control and have a new life.

Starting point is 00:54:15 It's going to be hard as hell. It's not an easy road. And it's nice hope and resilience, but the hope is very dismal. The resilience is going to take a really long time. And I want to be real with people. It's a hard road. And that's why you go back because it seems easier. But if you just keep pushing forward and you find the resources and what we're doing on BFF Alliance,

Starting point is 00:54:36 and on our show is putting together this, like we're building what we call BESTY toolkit. So you can get the resources you need because you don't just need a lawyer that you found on a billboard like I did. You need a lawyer who is trauma informed and who understands the nuances of domestic abuse and who understands that, you know, just because you didn't report it, didn't mean it didn't happen. The system is not really engineered in favor of this being a smooth transition. I mean, I know that a lot of amazing women that are in the legal system now, they've separated from the guy and everything. It's like a nightmare for them to even, get like a protection order or something like that sometimes, you know, if you just use the system

Starting point is 00:55:23 as it is without a specialist, it's not created to handle certain things like this because I think it's it's kind of like this little dirty secret that nobody wants to let anybody know is happening, you know, not even in America. And that's the thing. It's like because, I mean, I heard it from my lawyer. He was like, well, I've seen the pictures. I've heard the recordings. I know it was bad. But maybe we just leave this out, this part out of the conversation because it's like going to muddy the waters with the judge. There's no 911 report. There's not like, what do you want to do about it? Like, you're out. Like, do you really want to do something about it? Because remember, your lawyer is going to sit in front of that judge more times than you are. And they most likely know the opposing

Starting point is 00:56:05 counsel. It's all kind of like, you have 15 minutes with this judge. Do you really want to go back in this like look back period and start talking about abuse? Because there's been people who have said that they've been told by lawyers, if you mention the abuse, you're going to look like you're just trying to get money from the other person because now it's a problem that you've left. Now you want to bring it up. You can bring it up. You should bring it up. It should like all these things should be documented. And going back to the person like you're saying that we don't know who's listening, if you're in this situation and you can document things that you can keep hidden from, you know, somebody, I'm trying to work on some sort of like server where I can provide the service where people can just like put it somewhere.

Starting point is 00:56:45 Like on the blockchain or something. Yeah, exactly. Like somewhere because two things that are important for somebody right now. Documentation so you know that it happened. And write down the fight that you just got into somewhere safe. Because in a couple days or in a couple weeks or a couple years when your abuser is gaslighting you so much that you're gaslighting yourself, they're going to tell you that it didn't happen that way. You have a place to go back and see, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy.

Starting point is 00:57:15 because you're going to feel fucking crazy. They're going to sit in front of a judge and they're going to lie. They're going to lie to your face. They're going to lie. They want to distort and confuse as much as they can. And when you're in a situation where you're trying to negotiate or you're trying to really have a good understanding of how bad it really was, if you have some kind of journal or someplace that you can go back and go, it really was that bad.

Starting point is 00:57:37 It's a reminder that was real. And it's a reminder why you need to keep moving forward. So if you can document things. And the other thing, too, is like, restraining orders through a lawyer are, it's very expensive. It could be like $4 to $7,000 to get a restraining order. I can teach you how to do it for, I can do it for you. I now know how to do it. Places like one safe place, well, you can come in and they'll handle all that for you.

Starting point is 00:58:00 But you need to understand that your community is super important and that there are people that are able to help you. So you've been in the silo. You feel like very helpless. And you may have no access to money. I'm going to say this. If you're rich and you're being abused, I was there. I was rich and abused. And I'm like, I can't go to a shelter. That's not from, that's like, that's for somebody else who really needs it. I really needed it. But I wasn't ready to admit that I needed it. I felt like I was wearing that scarlet letter. But you need help and resources just as much as anybody else. So abuse, like there is no race, create, whatever. It's abuse is just it'll attack anyone. In closing, obviously, Bishes a Bad Word is a great conversation. I mean, all of the resources will be provided by us, but obviously just go check out the Bishes of Bad Word podcast and we'll teach you how to reach out to them. Like, is there some sort of a portal of entry that you would recommend as a first stop if somebody needs to reach out and find out about some of these things? Or do you recommend they just go to one safe house? What do you tell the woman that just even wants to whisper something right now? find a bestie, find someone like me, find somebody who's reach out to me. Local resources. Number one,

Starting point is 00:59:16 911, if you're in emergency any single time, use 911. Report it. Resources in your area, wherever you are, you know, shelters, there's a barrier to entry. And I think that people need to understand this. And I don't want that to be a reason why you stay or that you like hear this and go, oh, shit, it's going to be really hard to leave. You just sort of need to understand what's available to you. We are telling people, if you can slowly start squirling away a little, bit of money somewhere. We know somebody who goes to the store and they can get gift cards. And their husband lets them spend money on their credit card, but no cash. So she's been like amassing these gift cards for like grocery stores and visa cards and whatever so that she has

Starting point is 00:59:55 just like a little nest egg. Copies of your documents are very important. Just somewhere that somebody has that if you need to get a new license or if you need to leave in a hurry, really important pieces of things like your passport and your driver's license and your birth certificate, if you can get those away from the common area, that's just a little bit easier for you. And then if you live in an area that there's a one safe place organization, you just go right to them. And these people are amazing. You walk in, they, it's a really nice place. It's like not what you would imagine. And they have 24-hour security. And they have 24-hour security. And police on staff. So they can help you with the restraining order if you need to. And then they're

Starting point is 01:00:41 connected with different hospitals. If there's any sort of rape kid or some sort of sexual assault that's happened, they can get you through that with dignity. Then they'll even sweep your car for tracking devices. They'll sweep your, they'll put your phone in like one of those ferity bags and disconnect any sort of tracking. So just that's the other thing. Like we, I want to remind people listening, you are most likely being stalked and tracked. Clear your browsing history. Like if you go to BFF Alliance.org, we have like an exit now button and it takes you to like target or something. I can't remember what it takes you to. But like you just going to these safe places, but just try to just be mindful that your browsing history is monitored. Your, you know, transactions are being

Starting point is 01:01:17 monitored. Your location is probably being monitored. So get yourself in a super safe situation. And then the domestic violence hotline. And I mean, these, there's 24 hours a day. There's somebody on the line that can speak to you anonymously, they'll just give you any kind of resources and help you need. And that's the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Their phone number is 800-799-7-233. You can also 1-800-799 Safe is the, you can text them. You can text Start to 8-8-7-88. You can go on their website and live chat, but they're an amazing resource too for just feeling like information. Personally, if you want to reach out to me, I answer every single DM myself, every email. We have a phone number. So our Instagram is at bitch is a bad word pod. And we have a phone number, 331 bitches.

Starting point is 01:02:16 We're going to put together a bitch kit for everybody. A bitch kit, yes. You know, there's a couple of things that I want to say. First of all, thanks so much for this conversation. You know, I'm humbled to even fucking be. a man in this world knowing that that's even possible. I mean, my dad was not the greatest dad, but he never, like, abused my mom as far as I know. But it's just, it's just so foreign in my world. So I only know like movies and hearing stories and things like that. But I know what it is to be a man. I know what it is to get pissed off. I know what it is to have stupid ideas in my head that I would just never do something about. So I would assume that if you're that, that, guy you probably bailed on this podcast episode a long time ago if you are still listening you know

Starting point is 01:03:07 get some help get some help you know i'm not going to sit here and say i'm going to come kick your ass you know i i think that you're sick and and you have somehow got some mommy daddy issues of your own and stuff like that and then to any of the women that are listening i'm sure there's scenarios where men are being abused too so let's not leave that out you know partner violence is very It's like male on male, women on women, women on men, men on male. Okay, but my show, bitch is a bad word. We are all for the besties. That's the besties, yeah.

Starting point is 01:03:42 So if you're kind of like on the outside looking in as a bestie to be, just know that you're powerful. And I think the biggest thing that I heard you say is like, you know, when you were talking about my daughter is how important it is to know that you can say no, that you can say no. And even if you think it's like justified and stuff, you have choices. As long as we're free women, which like right now, who knows how long, it seems like sometimes we feel like we're going backwards, you don't have to ask your partner for anything. You don't have to ask for a divorce. You literally have the right and the free will to say,

Starting point is 01:04:20 I'm leaving you. And that is okay. I was called by my ex a radical feminist and I was like, like in court, by the way. And then I was like, really am I? I mean, I'm rat? I'm rad and I'm a feminist, but am I radical? So that's kind of like, I'm trying to understand where I stand in this world of like, you know, this new advocacy for women and being a baddie for other women to feel safe and seen and loved and heard. And that's my entire goal for the show is that we just, we've got your back and we're here for you. And please reach out. That's again, there's no safety and staying silent. And if you just need somebody to listen, for a minute just to say, hey, you know, those things that you were feeling, they're real,

Starting point is 01:05:05 you're not crazy, that's the goal. I love it. And just know that for anybody that is curious in this household of the dragon, the women absolutely run the fucking show here. Hey, Lindsay, such a great opportunity to have you speak. I think this is such a relevant topic, equally for men and for women. So thanks so much for being here. And I'll be sure to continue our relationship and support you guys.

Starting point is 01:05:30 because I think what you're doing is great. That's my pleasure. And thank you for making a safe place for us to share with you. So if you learned something today, remember, give it away. That's the only way it's going to stay. And by the way, have a great day. I love and appreciate you, and I'll see you next time. Bye-bye.

Starting point is 01:05:52 Makes sense.

Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Making Sense of Domestic Violence with Lindsay Abernathy - Episode 95

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