Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Making Sense of Giving With the GO GIVER - Bob Burg - Episode 66

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. Dornick podcast. This podcast covers topics that expand human consciousness and performance. On the Make Sense podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is a subjective and acquired taste. What we know is that when you change the way you look at things, the things that you look at begin to change. Welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. Dornick podcast.

Starting point is 00:00:37 Makes sense. Well, hello, everybody. And as I say, great morning, typically for my show. This is a great afternoon or late morning to everybody. So very, very excited about this episode. And I want to just let you know that the following episode and interview is, dare I say, incredibly relevant at this particular time. as it leads to this or lends to this whole idea that I often speak about,

Starting point is 00:01:09 that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, as well as acknowledging the fact that if we somehow figure out, and I believe this work is one of the ways to do it, that if we change the way that we look at things, then the things that we look at can begin to change if you're into that sort of thing. So I want you to know that it's my hope that this conversation with a very special guest will simply end with you pointing in the right direction. You get to decide what that is.

Starting point is 00:01:38 Today I am extremely thrilled to welcome a very special guest to the Make Sense podcast, and that would be Bob Berg. Bob is the co-author of the international bestselling book, The Go-Giver, and that's a book that has transformed the way that people think about success in business and in life. Bob is not only a celebrated author, but a highly sought-after speaker, known for his ability to inspire individuals and organizations to create exceptional value while at the same time achieving extraordinary results. With this revolutionary go-giver philosophy, what Bob's done is he's shown that shifting our focus from getting to giving, putting others' interests first, and continually adding value leads to greater success, fulfillment, and joy. His message is timeless, practical, and above all, as I said before, needed now more than ever.

Starting point is 00:02:33 Let's dive into this amazing conversation about leadership, entrepreneurship, giving and receiving one of my favorite topics, and living a life of purpose. So I want to welcome Bob Berg to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. Hello, Dr. J.C. Bob, I just want to off the cuff personally, thank you for being here. Your book is, it's very interesting the way your book tracks. travels around. It's very much a referral book, meaning people love handing this book to other people. Sometimes you find out about books on the internet and stuff like that, but the go-giver,

Starting point is 00:03:07 oddly enough, with the name, the first time I got my hands on it a long time ago, it was given to me and somebody says, you're going to love this book. And I sure did. I'd actually read it three times. So I don't know if you have anything to say about your success with this book, but I'd love to maybe open up with this idea of like, did you ever know that this thing was going to turn into such a movement? Well, John David Mann and I thought there was going to be an audience for it because we felt the message was something that, you know, where the timing was right and it was something that people wanted to, to just sort of be introduced to and exposed to. Of course, nothing that John and I shared on the book was really new. It wasn't new at all. These are principles that successful people have

Starting point is 00:03:52 used for as long as there have been market economy. They didn't always know that's what they were doing. Many people did it intuitively, right? But everybody had to do it. All five of these laws are, you know, part of success that if you take any one of them away, if you take any one of them out of the equation, a person simply cannot be as successful as they would be utilizing all five. So it's not that there's anything at all new in there. We just, I guess, gave the laws different names and thanks to the wonderful writing of John David Mann, who's a fantastic storyteller and an author and entrepreneur, we were able to put a message out there that was well received. And as you said, it's, you know, it's been a book that I think has had legs because of all the people such as yourself, you know,

Starting point is 00:04:36 who have gotten behind this and really wanted to share the message. So we're always very grateful. It's kind of like the show Friends. You know, you can't take any one of them out of it and have a successful show. I like to draw on that. So typically, the first question I ask when I interview somebody is some sort of a, so tell me about your background. But I'm going to ask it in a different way because I'm so well-versed in your book and the characters in it. So here's the way I'd love to ask you a little bit about your past. When you created the character Joe, now for those of you that don't know, Joe is the main character who kind of goes through this transformation of moving from

Starting point is 00:05:15 go-getter to go-giver. The question is, is how were you like Joe before you became a go-giver. And how did you make the breakthrough? How did you go from Joe to who we find out Joe becomes in the book? Yeah. So 40 years ago, I started in sales. And I had had no formal training. So I really flound for the first few months. And unfortunately, I had gotten a couple. I found a couple of great books on selling in a bookstore. And I utilize those books, learn from them, learn the sales systems and did pretty well. A couple years later, I took a job with another company, and I was in a sales slump from the beginning. And I made a real young salesperson's mistake, and that is the more of a slump I was in, the more I focused on myself and trying to make

Starting point is 00:06:07 the sale instead of being focused on providing value to my prospective customers. And so we all know how that works. Why? Because nobody's going to buy from you because you want to get out of a slump, right? In fact, nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota to me or because you want to make the sale or because you need the money. People are going to buy from you because they believe that they will be better off by doing so than by not doing so, which is really the only reason why anyone should buy from you or from me or from anyone else. But I remember there was a gentleman at this place where I worked. He was not in the sales department. I think he was an engineer. He was a much older guy and I think he retired soon after that. I didn't know him very well,

Starting point is 00:06:47 But he was one of these guys who, and we've all known people like this, he didn't say much, but whenever he did, it was typically very profound. And I think he saw me as sort of a Joe, right, who would, you know, who John and I would write about 25 years after that or 30 or whatever it was, that, you know, that young, up-and-coming, ambitious, out there hustling salesperson, who had great potential, but whose focus was in the wrong place. And so he said to me, Berg, he was a last name kind of guy. He said, Berg, can I give you some advice? And I said, sure, please go ahead. I need it. And he said, if you want to make a lot of money in sales, he said, don't have making money as your target. Your target is serving others. Now, when you hit the target, he continued, you'll get a reward. And that reward will come in the form of money. And you can do with that money, whatever you choose. But never forget.

Starting point is 00:07:46 he said. The money is simply the reward for hitting the target. It's not the target itself. Your target is serving others. And you know, Dr. J.C., what that taught me, what I came to realize, I think at that very moment, was that great salesmanship is never about the salesperson, right? Great salesmanship is never about the product or service as important as that is. And it is. It's just not what it's about. Great salesmanship is about the value you're adding to another person's life, where we could perhaps even more accurately say, it's another person's life being better just because you are part. And I think that when we approach sales from that foundational premise,

Starting point is 00:08:35 we're really nine steps ahead of the game and a 10-step game. And that's what John David Mann and I really wanted Joe to learn in the story through his journey through, I guess, being a go-taker, which is what he really was, to a go-giver. Yeah, you know, what's interesting about that, first of all, I have empathy for Joe, you know, and I think we've all been Joe. I was thinking about which character I resonate with the most, and I think the proper answer would be all of them, you know. But when you look at Joe, it's like, or if somebody's listening right now and they're the

Starting point is 00:09:11 person that, you know, is tethered and in. entrenched in going after their goals. I mean, like that is a very logical thing to pull from personal growth and self-development is like, hey, this is a doggie-dog world and nobody's coming to save you. I mean, God, people are building careers on that concept. And it's causing people to go out there and create this illusion that if it is to be, it's up to me. So there is this, we forgive you for you, know not what you do. You make this statement, I think anybody listening right now can say, yeah, I can see that, but, you know, their butt will come into it. But you made a statement in the book in one of the lessons that I'd love you to expand on,

Starting point is 00:09:52 because, like, I really want people to pull away these nuggets in these 30 minutes. It was a lesson that identified why asking if something will make us money. When we're looking at this idea of, like, what we're going to do, the time and risk we're going to put in, asking if something's going to make us money is not a bad question, but as you say, it's just a bad first question. Could you just expand on that? Because when I heard that, that's when it all opened up for me. Right.

Starting point is 00:10:17 So at this point, Joe is talking to Pindar, and Pindar offers him a cup of coffee from this person who works from named Rachel. And it's wonderful copy. We've been up a Rachel's famous coffee. Can I ask you a question? Can I somehow get a cup of Rachel's coffee? I mean, like you had us just hang in there on that.

Starting point is 00:10:38 Hmm, Rachel's. No. And so, so Joe takes a sip of it. He's like, what, you know, if you could market this on an industrial scale, you could make a killing, right? And Pindar, who had just talked about, you know, sharing her copy with the world, said to Joe, you know, let's kind of take a look at this and frame this. This isn't exactly what he said, but what he's getting at is frame it in a different way. You said make a killing and we said sharing her copy. This has to do with focus, okay?

Starting point is 00:11:14 Because Joe said, so you mean asking if something will make a lot of money is a bad question? And Fender said, no. Asking if something will make money, it's a great question. It's just a bad first question. First ask, will it stir or does it serve? if the answer is yes, then ask, will it make money? Now, let's someone think, oh, that's just being nicey, nice, and but no, that's not it at all. Let's even say, let's substitute, does it serve or will it serve with, is there a market for?

Starting point is 00:11:51 Will people buy it? Okay. Remember, nobody's going to buy from you because you would like it to make money. They're going to buy from it because they believe there's more value in doing so in buying than there is and not buying. first you say, is there a marketplace for this? Do people need it, want it, afford it? Now, by the way, it might be a market, depending upon the product. It might be a marketplace that already exists. And it's, can you make inroads there with your product being, you know, either a little better or this or that or what I'm offering a, you know, what have you? Or is this a market that I'm willing

Starting point is 00:12:26 to create if there's not one out there. And again, that's always a choice. We have to make as individuals. But the key is that if you first ask, will it make money before wondering if it will serve the marketplace, if people, you know, if there's a market, you're putting the cart before the horse. So first ask, does it serve? Now, if it does, if it serves, if there's a marketplace for it, if there are people who would buy it, now you need to ask, will it make money? Right. Because you can have everybody loving it. But if you're losing money on every sale, you've got a very expensive hobby. So both are important, but it's where you put your focus. They know, John, who it's such a wonderful word smith, he came up with a saying, and we actually used this in the

Starting point is 00:13:13 follow-up book, Go-Givers sell more, but John came up with this, and that is money is simply an echo of value. Money is an echo of value. It's the thunder to values. Now, what does that mean? Really, simple. The value must come from it. The focus, must be on the value you're providing another human being, right? The money you receive is simply a natural result of the value you provide. And that's like the mentor back in the day who said to me, you know, that the target is serving others. The money you receive is simply a, a, a, your reward for hitting the target. It's such a fascinating idea. And for those of you that have read the book. And I really, I mean, in my community, I'm kind of like calling this a prerequisite.

Starting point is 00:14:03 Well, I'm constantly just identifying as somebody that's studied success, you know, from start to finish. That's why I resonate so much with this book is you'll never find somebody sitting at their place at the top of the mountain that like cut some of these vital corners. But if you read the book, you'll see that he shares these five laws. And in the beginning, there's a, this one character, Pindar, who's kind of like the wise Yoda-like guy that, you know, and I call guys like that, you know, like this gentleman that you said you met some time ago. There are people that speak softly and carry a big stick. And the big stick that Pindar shared was he says, listen, Joe, because he saw something in him,

Starting point is 00:14:47 like you said, and God, we're so lucky when people have the emotional intelligence to see something in us. I mean, I was a, I'm a recovering asshole. self. So what's interesting is how Pindar said, I'm going to share these five laws. And we don't have time to go over all the laws. But he says, but there's one rule. And that is that each time I share them, you have to take action on them. And if you don't, he says, then this conversation will end. So for the sake of me worried about the readers, because when I did it, I stopped at each law and went through it, right? I said, well, how can I do it? And for me, I found it

Starting point is 00:15:31 found it pretty easy to do because I guess I think I'm already a go-giver of sorts. Well, yeah, I think you're one of those many people who, you know, when you read the book, there wasn't anything new that you learned. You just identified what was. Just like when I read the secret, you know, about the law of attraction. But it was your book is very, very good at putting something that we claim that we already know into a light that we can actually use. remove people from the jacuzzi experience of reading your book or hearing this conversation, I'd love you to talk a little bit about the concept of responsibility. I love when he said, oh, so what you're saying is, is that you don't want me to waste your time. And I love that you said,

Starting point is 00:16:12 Pindar responded, says, oh, no, I'm sorry, you don't have the power to waste my time. And then he says, well, how will you know if I've done these things? He says, I won't, but you will. Share a little bit about that because it's one thing to teach people these vital lessons, but it's another to recognize most will not do it. Well, it's unfortunate. You know, it's human nature. Really, all you can do is put the information out there and look for those people who will take action. I mean, you know, it's kind of as simple as that. I remember Bill Gove, who was a, he was one of the founders of the National Speakers Association. And back in the day, he was an amazing sale. He was a world champion or at least national champion salesperson.

Starting point is 00:16:54 But he was a mentor to many of us as, you know, as young upcoming speakers. And one of the questions that we would ask is, you know, what about the people who, you know, we pour our heart and soul into providing this information and so forth? What about the many people who just aren't going to, aren't going to take that information and act upon it? And he said, you know, Bob,

Starting point is 00:17:16 one of the toughest lessons I ever learned in sales, was that, you can say in sales and business and life, what have you. He said, you're responsible to people, not for people. You're responsible to them to give them the opportunity. You're responsible to them to provide them with the right information. You're responsible to them to ask the right questions that, you know, elicit their, they're sharing with you what they need, what they want and desire. You're responsible to them to provide the insights that's going to help them, right? You're responsible to them to do all the things that you have control over, which is the effort, which is the action. You're not responsible

Starting point is 00:17:56 for their life's decisions. And, you know, when you embrace that, it's very free, you know, because you know that as so long as you take responsibility for your part, you've done your job. Yeah, that reminds me of the stoic principle, the dichotomy of control. I mean, you know, we always teach in our community that you can kind of build. this filter of sorts that helps you identify what we control and what we don't. But that, see, there's a distinction of people know that what you just said, but it's until they embrace it and say, wait a second, I see it now and they take action. So just one last piece on that.

Starting point is 00:18:39 I just want everybody to know when you read the book, if you value anything that I ever share with you, give yourself the opportunity to pause when you learn something and go out and practice as if you were Joe, because there's a very distinct reason why Joe ends up in the situation that he is in this story, and it's because he actually did it, did the work. So I'm going to, I'm going to jump over to another one of your books right now. So Bob has taken, you know, kind of like Jack Canfield with his chicken soup. He's created many, many other versions of the go-giver, and one of my favorite was the leader, the leadership one. So one of the things I read in there, and I thought it was just fantastic.

Starting point is 00:19:21 In it, you share a little bit on what it is that makes a true leader. And I know that this is not about the go-giver book. This is another one. But you talk about this idea of what makes a leader, a true leader, an influencer, and very, very attractive. Because if you think about yourself as a leader, there are followers, but then we know that a true leader will probably help them rise up. But you speak about unique attributes that I'd love you to share a little bit on

Starting point is 00:19:48 that make perfect sense yet are not typically considered things that people consider, such as leaders are ones that express humility. You also made a statement that says the best way to enhance your influence on others is to give it away. So I'd love you to share a little bit about leadership because there's a lot of leaders out there that might be misled to thinking that a leader is defined by somebody that walks and everybody follows them. Well, so what John and I really meant by that about giving it away, we call this giving leadership. And giving leadership is both a noun and a verb. It's, you know,

Starting point is 00:20:32 giving leadership, giving leadership is a type of leadership, right? It's a leadership in which the leader is focused on exactly, as you said, building those people who are following them. But it's also a verb, right? It's giving leadership. It's teaching, it's equipping, and then letting go to a certain point, right? And allowing people to be able to step up into their best selves. It's also that person, as Jim Collins talked about in that, in his wonderful book, Good to Great, that level five leader who makes it about everyone else. right you know the difference between remember the level four and five leader then talked about both who are very very talented but the level four leader it was really kind of about them and who they were

Starting point is 00:21:19 and they took the credit and they you know so forth where the level five leader gives that leadership away and he gives the credit away and he wants people you know he edifies those people who are following him and he teaches them to be great leaders so really it's a and i think you've got a lot of leaders who do that not as many as you know you wish would with all we know these days about leadership, all the great books have been written out there. And there's tons of wonderful books on leadership out there by, you know, people who have just built huge companies and organizations, and they've done it by really being giving leaders, or servant leaders, you could say, or, you know, what have you. So yeah, so when we talk about that,

Starting point is 00:21:58 that's really what we say when we're saying, you know, is to give it away, is to make it about the other people. Take the focus off of ourselves and place it on, on those who are following, you know, those are team members, the clients, the customers, and so forth. Well, this brings up a very, very interesting, timely observation and insight. We're in a world right now, and I know that you know this because you're in the world. You are in this world with us, where the matrix of doing business is changing so rapidly because of technology. And we're seeing children out there figuring out how to tap into certain algorithms and

Starting point is 00:22:38 and win and make tons of money in business structures that really don't add like enriching value to people's lives. What is your personal opinion on this emergence of the obvious nature of strategies and structures that teach people how to make tons of money that don't really create value in people's life outside of give people the value of obviously seeking some sort of distraction. I mean, there's business models based on helping people distract themselves from lives. What is your take on that? So first, I think we need to really understand what value is and how it's defined. What John and I say is that value is the relative worth or desirability of a thing, of something to the end user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing,

Starting point is 00:23:35 this product, service, concept, idea, what have you, that brings so much worth or value to another person that they will willingly exchange their money for it. Now, with that definition, Dr. J.C., what we understand is that ultimately value is always in the eyes of the beholder. So when we say, well, people are making a lot of money selling something that's not of value, well, it is a value to those people buying it. It's not of value to us. To us, I think the question would be, how do we teach our children in a sense, right, to have more appropriate values, you know, to totally value things as we, their major influencers, right, would like them to value it. And so, and there's no, of course, one answer to this. But I think that's really, in a sense,

Starting point is 00:24:28 what it's about. And I remember Earl Nightingale and his great series, And I can't remember if this was lead the field or the strangest secret. I think it was lead the field. This was back in the 1950s when he recorded this as an LP, right? And what he said, he said it the same way. He was talking about, you know, how markets were. You know, you have a willing buyer, a willing seller. And the idea of the seller, of course, is to please the buyer.

Starting point is 00:24:53 Give the buyer what it is they want. Then, of course, that basically sales. It's discovering what the other person needs, wants and desires and helping them to get it. Now, that's a principle. But like any principle or universal law, it can be used, you know, positive or negative. And again, that's always in the eyes of the beholder. And he said, you know, just like a corner drug dealer, right, who's selling drugs on the street corner. It's very undesirable for most of us to see somebody make a living doing something like that.

Starting point is 00:25:24 But, you know, who finds it of value? His customers, his buyers. Okay. I think the question, you know, becomes if we would rather have a world in which people were not utilizing harmful drugs, we've got to create the environment where people don't want to use harmful drugs. So you see what I'm saying? So if we say, well, kids are going online and they're learning the algorithms and they're selling how to, whatever it is they sell, okay? You know, those are markets at work. The answer is to try to make it so those things being sold are not desirable.

Starting point is 00:25:58 It's like don't hate the player, hate the game. I'm not glad that somebody is making money selling schlock. Right. I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is, is that it happens at the demand part. Yeah. It's supply and demand. Either way you look at it.

Starting point is 00:26:15 People aren't demanding it. There's going to be no business for that person. Okay. And, you know, and so that's, you know, that's what I'm trying to say. So I just didn't want people to think I was saying, yeah, it's great. the guys doing that if you can find a bunch of soccer. I understand what you're saying. But either way you look at it, you know, it's supply and demand.

Starting point is 00:26:35 And I was going to share with you, I for some time was the personal chiropractor. I used to be a chiropractor for a very powerful woman who's a worldwide CEO of a massive company. And in her company, they sold very unhealthy products. And she was extremely healthy. We'll call it sugar water. And I said to her one day, I said, I don't understand how you're so healthy, but you're the worldwide CEO of a company that sells such crap.

Starting point is 00:27:03 And she taught me a valuable lesson. She goes, well, I'll make you a deal right now. And I go, what? She goes, if you stop drinking it, we'll stop making it. To your point. So we're at the top of our time. I would love you to look forward at, you know, there's a lot of concern and confusion in the world.

Starting point is 00:27:20 And it's typically because people are caught up in stuff that probably is way out of their control. but when you look at the current reality of humanity and you know because we're kind of this is being recorded at the end of a 2024 year we're going into this new year full of hope and new goals and everything like that i'd love to get your your take and your perception on this current reality and the idea of why becoming a go-giver would be so congruent i think you've said that it even honors nature but would be such a relevant way for people to go about handling adversity, but also thriving in this crazy world? Well, so operating as a go-giver, which simply means that you understand that taking your

Starting point is 00:28:08 focus off yourself and placing your focus on serving others, discovering what, again, what they need, want, desire, how you can make their life better, how you can help them solve their problems. That is the best way to do business. There's nothing la-la or woo about it. Because remember, it always goes back to people do things for their reasons, not our reasons. Right. Okay. They're not buying for our reason. They're buying for this.

Starting point is 00:28:30 So to the degree that we feel a need in the marketplace and help another person, that is the degree that we are going to earn very, very well. So being a go-giver, doing business that way, happens to be very practical as well as fulfilling. And it's more fulfilling because as human beings, part of human nature, part of our nature, is we want to make a difference. We want to do good for others. We want to do good for the world. And as entrepreneurs and salespeople, we tend to do this mainly through our business.

Starting point is 00:29:01 Now, that doesn't mean we can't be involved in other things as well, charities, mentorship, sponsors, you know, different things, of course. But we invest a lot of time in our work, right, a lot of hours and day. And so we tend to, so when we have a job in which we feel that we are helping others, that we're making the world a little bit better just by being. part of it and what we do, what we offer and how we do it, that feels good. It makes us feel as human beings as though we have a purpose. And that's probably one of the things that I enjoy so much about life, even in the hardest of times is I just feels good to give. It feels good to give. That

Starting point is 00:29:41 introduces us to a whole other conversation for another time about allowing others to give to you, because a lot of people are out there just saying, I'm only a giver, I'm not a taker, and say, well, that's not fair to everybody else. You want to be clear. Exactly. Well, I mean, you know, there's this whole, everybody loves to say, I'm an angel from heaven and all I do is give. And, you know, I told somebody when I was doing my humanitarian work one day, he says, why do you do this?

Starting point is 00:30:05 And I said, oh, because it's the right thing to do. And then he says, yeah, but what's in it for you? And I said, there's nothing in it for me. I'm doing this for the good of the people. And, you know, in so many words, like a New Yorker, he said, BS, right? And I was like, what do you mean, BS? I'm the good guy here. And he says, human beings don't think, say, or do anything that doesn't have value.

Starting point is 00:30:30 He says, it's okay to recognize that it makes you feel good to do it. And that was a big thing for me. Bob, thank you so much for your time. Just from the perspective of a fan, you know, I just want you to know how powerful your books are. The fact that you can drive, you know, I drive to pick up my kids for hours at times. and I listen to the audio books and you get to hear your voice and your partner. They're just really, really valuable books. As somebody that reads a book every week, I read over 50 books a year, thanks to my friend Jim

Starting point is 00:31:00 Quick. When you read The Go-Giver, it's the book that will stop you and make you think about it and not just like mow through it. So just really, really good work, really providing value and service for humanity. If you guys want to connect with Bob, real simple, berg.com. And something really special that Bob does is if you go to the GoGiver Academy, that's where for a very, very reasonable price, you can gain access over a year's time to all of his premium stuff. And I don't know if you want to say anything about that, but it's just a unique opportunity to move past the book and get to interact with you on that level. Just welcome people to check it out.

Starting point is 00:31:41 Yeah. It's a lot of fun. Awesome. Bob, happy Thanksgiving, even though that's already passed. and I wish you and yours a wonderful, prosperous 2025 full of giving and receiving. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you, Dr. Jason. Makes sense.

Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Making Sense of Giving With the GO GIVER - Bob Burg - Episode 66

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