Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Making Sense of The Flow State - Episode 90

Episode Date: May 8, 2025

There’s a moment when everything clicks. Time dissolves, distractions vanish, and you become one with whatever you’re doing—whether it's writing, coding, competing, or creating. It feels effortless, but it’s far from accidental. Flow State is the pinnacle of human performance where focus, creativity, and productivity align in perfect harmony. We’ve all tasted it. Few know how to find it again. Even fewer understand how to control it. For decades, scientists and peak performers have sought to demystify the concept of Flow, turning what was once seen as a rare gift into a repeatable process. But hidden beneath all the talk of peak performance lies a truth most people never hear: The name of the game is struggle. Flow begins in Struggle. In other words, the task at hand must be challenging. If you are a skilled painter, writer, or public speaker and don’t test your skills with uncomfortable challenges, you diminish the odds of entering the flow state.  If you avoid or don’t know how to handle that struggle, you’ll never reach the state where your best work and self come alive.  Today, we will explore what legends like Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi and Steven Kotler revealed about Flow. But more importantly, we’ll uncover how Dr. JC Doornick’s Interface Response System (IRS) could be the X-Factor. This conscious tool helps you navigate adversity, shift your perspective, and hack into Flow on demand. Because once you understand how to change the way you look at struggle, the struggle becomes your gateway, and life starts to Make Sense.   Episode 90 Resources: Flow by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi  - https://amzn.to/3F4NvAP Rise of Superman - https://amzn.to/4kcMdmd The Power of Full Engagement - https://amzn.to/437GUxs   ►Follow Dr. JC Doornick and the Makes Sense Academy: Instagram: / drjcdoornick   Facebook:  / makessensepodcast   YouTube:  / drjcdoornick     MAKES SENSE PODCAST SUBSCRIBE/RATE/REVIEW & SHARE our new podcast. FOLLOW the NEW Podcast - You will find a "Follow" button top right. This will enable the podcast software to alert you when a new episode launches each week.  Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/makes-sense-with-dr-jc-doornick/id1730954168 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1WHfKWDDReMtrGFz4kkZs9?si=003780ca147c4aec   Podcast Affiliates: Kwik Learning: Many people ask me where i get all these topics for almost 15 years? I have learned to read nearly 4 times faster with 10X retention from Kwik Learning. Learn how to learn and earn with Jim Kwik. Get his program at a special discount here: https://jimkwik.com/dragon    OUR SPONSORS:  Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast: This podcast covers topics that expand human consciousness and performance. On the Makes Sense Podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is a subjective and acquired taste. When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at begin to change. Welcome to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Makes Sense with Dr. JC Doornick Podcast. - Makes Sense Academy: A private mastermind and psychologically safe environment full of the Mindset and Action steps that will help you begin to thrive. The Makes Sense Academy. https://www.skool.com/makes-sense-academy/about  - The Sati Experience: A retreat designed for the married couple that truly loves one another yet wants to take their love to that higher magical level where. Relax, reestablish, and renew your love at the Sati Experience. https://www.satiexperience.com    0:00 - Intro  3:14 - The birth of Flow with Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi 4:40 - Modern Day Flow by Steven Kotler 5:35 - The 4 Stages of the Flow Cycle 8:57 - Hacking Flow 12:37 - The IRS (Interface Response System) as a Flow Hacking Tool 17:00 - 5 Core truths from the masters Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is mastering flow, the missing link to unlock peak performance. Discover how Mahali Chetsan Mahali and Stephen Kotler decoded the flow state and why my interface response system may be the missing key to turning adversity into effortless achievement. Makes sense. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This podcast covers topics that expand human consciousness and performance. On the Make Sense podcast, we acknowledge that it's who you are that determines how well what you do works, and that perception is a subjective and acquired taste. When you change the way that you look at things, the things that you look at begin to change.

The Make Sense podcast is sponsored and primarily funded by the Make Sense Academy. Our private community, where open and curious seekers of growth and expansion apply the Make Sense principles and systems to move from simply going through life to growing through life. So check out the Make Sense Academy risk-free for less than you'll spend today on shit that you don't need. Welcome, my friends, to the uprising of the sleepwalking masses. Welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. Dornick podcast. There's a moment when everything clicks. Time dissolves, distractions vanish, and you become one with whatever you're doing.

Whether it's writing, coding, competing, or creating, it feels effortless, but it's far from accidental. This, my friends, is what we call the flow state. The pinnacle of human performance where focus, creativity, and productivity align in perfect harmony. We've all tasted it, but only few know how to find it again. Even fewer understand how to control it. For decades, scientists and peak performers have sought to demystify the concept of flow, turning what was once seen as a rare gift into a repeatable process. But hidden beneath all of the talk of peak performance lies a truth most people never hear.

The name of the game, struggle. Flow begins in struggle. In other words, the task at hand must be challenging. If you're a skilled painter, writer, or public speaker, and you don't test your skills with an uncomfortable challenge, you're going to diminish the odds of entering this elusive flow state. And if you avoid or don't know how to handle that struggle, you'll never access that flow state where your best work and your best self comes alive. Today, we're going to explore what legends like Mahali Chetsan Mahali and Stephen Kotler

revealed about flow. But more importantly, we're also going to uncover how my interface response system could be, well, it is, the X factor. This conscious tool will teach you how to navigate adversity, shift your perspective, and hack into flow on demand. Because once you understand how to change the way you look at struggle, well, the struggle becomes your gateway and life, it starts to make sense. The birth of flow, how Mahali Chitsamahali redefines happiness. In a world obsessed with comfort and leisure, Mahali Chitsamahali asked a deeper question, when are humans truly at their best? His research

didn't point to relaxation or passive pleasure. Instead, he discovered that people feel most alive when they're fully immersed in a challenge that stretches their skills just beyond their comfort zone. In his seminal book, Flow, The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Chitsamihali introduced us to this complete absorption where self-consciousness fades, time distorts, and action feels effortless, yet profoundly fulfilling. He identified that flow arises when, three elements are in alignment. One, a clear goal that provides direction. Two, that goal puts you in a state where there's immediate feedback that keeps you engaged.

Three, there needs to be a balance where the challenge slightly exceeds your skill level. Too easy and boredom creeps in. Too hard and anxiety takes over. But on that razor's edge exists something called flow. His research reframed how we view work, creativity, sports, and even life satisfaction. But Chitsa Mihaliy also hinted at something crucial. Flow isn't permanent.

There's a cycle to it. And that cycle begins with discomfort. Fast forward to the 21st century, and Stephen Kotler picks up where Chitsa Mihali left off. Diving deep into the neuroscience, Kotler studied extreme athletes, those who flirt with danger yet consistently access flow under pressure. In his book, The Rise of Superman,

Kotler reveals that flow isn't just psychological, it's biological. It's triggered by risk, novelty, complexity, and deep focus. When these elements all converge, the brain releases a cocktail of neurochemicals, dopamine, neuroepinephrine, and endorphins that enhance performance, creativity, and pattern recognition. But Kotler also exposed the most significant misunderstanding about flow. People think it's all about getting in the zone. They don't. don't realize that flow is part of a four-stage cycle. And if you don't respect that cycle, you'll never master it. So here's how that flow cycle works. It begins with struggle. The loading phase, as he calls it, your challenge, stretched and often overwhelmed. Your brain is working

hard, seeking solutions, and it feels frustrating. Second, the release phase. This is the critical shift where we stop forcing, step back, and let the subconscious take over. Three, the payoff, flow, effortless action, deep focus, peak performance. This is when time seems to disappear and you operate at your best. And then the fourth, recovery. The most elusive and misunderstood phase of the flow cycle. This is the recharge phase. Neurochemicals deplete and rest becomes essential to avoid burnout and prepare for the next cycle.

This reminds me of a great book that I read called The Power of Full Engagement, where we understand that in that peak performance, if you don't allow yourself a recovery phase, you'll never learn from it and also you'll burn out. The problem. Most high achievers get trapped oscillating between struggle and fleeting glimpses of flow, meaning they get tastes of it and they see it and it's this elusive goal, this holy grail that they want, but they never get there because they don't know how to transition through. through the release phase. They misinterpret the discomfort of struggle as a signal to quit,

or worse, they grind themselves into exhaustion, often allowing their conditioned minds to avoid the hard work and pain associated with the challenge and dropping them into a rocking chair of oscillation between the struggle and the release phases. Two steps forward, three steps back. Sound familiar? This is where awareness becomes more valuable than the hustle. And this is where we begin to look for flow hacking tools. As a reminder, Mahali Chitsa Mahli refers to these three essential stimulators of flow. And I want to go a little bit deeper now. So one of them is to have a clear goal. We must have a destination and a reason to do something. If we don't have a reason to do something, we'll find a reason not to do it. So the second one is that immediate feedback. Once we're engaged in the activity

that is going to promote the goal that we have this clear state of, you feel that feedback letting you know you are in action. And a great example of that would be a surfer, or in my case, writing. So if a surfer has a clear goal of wanting to surf a wave, as soon as he commits to that, every single muscle fiber and every bit of his nervous system is engaged in the immediate feedback of surfing. So the same thing happens with me when I'm writing. If I get an idea and I actually engage, and my clear goal is to write about that idea and bring it to completion, everything in my body is involved in that. I may be sitting down, but I'm typing and my nervous system is highly engaged and I'm getting that immediate feedback. And then three, challenge skills balance, an even state of skills that require balance.

Now, Mahali Chitsha Mahali refers to an even state of skills that require balance. And what that means is, if your skill sets are not met with an even state of challenge, then they'll get bored. And that'll be one of the reasons why you won't push through. But as you'll see soon, in the the modern age, Stephen Kotler has a different take on how to hack flow, and it has a lot to do with that challenge skills balance. Research shows that a crucial way to tap into flow is to strike a balance between challenge and skill and engage in an activity that is at least, as scientists say, 4% more difficult than your skill level. Why? This pushes you into a heightened state of focus and stimulates all the factors to release from struggle and into flow. Let's break it down into some

practical examples of how this happens. One quick thing about that. Just imagine yourself pushing yourself into a wave that's too big. And you can use that as an example for anything in your life. Just imagine that you're taking a little bit more than you typically can handle on your plate. What version of you shows up? We understand that there's a fight or flight aspect to the stress response system. However, wouldn't you agree that you're in a heightened state? You could call it nervous. You could call it scared, but those things are actually very, very important because they get your blood pumping and you're in a higher state of activity. 4% more difficult than your skill level.

So that's going to push you into that heightened state. And that's where flow becomes highly probable. So a big part of reaching the flow state is having a reason to. Otherwise, when you are met with that inevitable struggle phase, you won't persist because you don't have a reason to. So dopamine plays a significant role in getting into the flow state. researchers have identified 22 sets of flow state triggers that produce that dopamine hit. In other words, action steps we can take consciously to navigate struggles better and step into

flow. Examples include mastering concentration or choosing a time when your brain is most awake, eliminating distractions in that time and tapping into the power of full engagement. There it is again. This is why I rise up at 4 a.m. in the morning. It's not because I'm I like getting up at 4 in the morning. It's when my brain is most awake. When is your brain most awake? And another thing about that 4 a.m. time slot for me is that flow blockage and distraction is at an all time minimum.

There's nobody and nothing bothering me at those times. And that's a big part of getting into flow. I often share my morning routine. I often share my morning routine with other people and explain that it's essential to not just squeeze it in somewhere. The morning routine is not going to work for you. if it's not done at a time where you're at optimal performance. Put it into play at a time that best leverages your flow state.

Other flow state triggers include novelties and play. Make it fun. You know, if you're inspired or doing something that you really enjoy or maybe reading a good book or listening to an awesome song, you'll notice that those put you into a heightened state. That's where flow lives. As an example, our morning masterminds at the Make Sense Academy are a place where people gather to discuss.

us thought-provoking topics. 20 to 30 minutes into these discussions, it's plain to see that our members begin exploring the creative chambers of their brain and share highly insightful thoughts. This produces a great start to their day and leverages them into a more productive state of flow. So why is that? Well, I'll tell you why. It's the environment and it's hearing other people and they're allowing themselves in an open and curious way to hear about different perspectives They're exploring an uncomfortable zone that they're learning to be comfortable in. And every day the conversation is different and it stretches their ability and their imagination. So it's natural that it helps them start their day the right way and move into a flow state.

So that means that the Make Sense Academy and our morning masterminds are flow hacking tools. So let's talk about the interface response system, which I call the missing link between struggle and flow. So in all of my research in creating the interface response system, I still found that those 22 triggers that instigate and stimulate flow did increase our potential to reach flow, yet always depended on the individual's ability to bypass the conditioned mind's perception and response system in the face of struggle and adversity. So my interface response system was designed to help people reclaim control over their conditioned responses, to pause, reframe, and consciously choose how they want to engage with

life's challenges. This is where most people get caught up between struggle and the release phase in the flow cycle. And the reason why that happens is based on one of the tenants of our Make Sense Academy and our Make Sense coaching protocol. And that is, it's who you are that determines how well what you do works. If you're having trouble navigating struggle, it's because you're programmed to have trouble navigating struggle. Just because you've decided that you want to go hack into flow today doesn't change your operating system. It's easy for you to listen to this podcast and look at this idea and say, okay, great.

When struggle comes up, I just change the way I look at it and everything's going to be fine. I'll pass go and collect 200 bucks. But what you forget is that most of your stress response system of your conditioned mind and your ego is working without your say. It's working in the lower levels of your unconscious mind. When you're in it and you feel that struggle, you'll still have that fight or flight reaction. So the interface response system becomes a flow hacking strategy for you in that space. And if you don't have this strategy loaded in your tool belt, well,

you'll be somebody that has that jacuzzi experience, reads these books, learns these lessons, gets excited about them, goes to a seminar, and goes out and gets the same old ineffective results that you've always gotten. So here's how the interface response system aligns perfectly with each phase of the flow cycle. In the struggle phase, where most people drown in frustration, the interface response system teaches you to perceive what's actually happening. You recognize that this tension isn't failure. It's the necessary friction before the breakthrough. In phase one of the interface response system, which we call perceive, we acknowledge the condition nature of the mind and the faulty potential of your response system. And that's why we allow ourselves to compartmentalize it.

okay, my thoughts and feelings say, get the hell out of here, but I'm going to put those on pause here for a second because I'm going to entertain a different perspective. So instead of reacting impulsively, that activates and validates the second step of the interface response system, which is the pause. This conscious interruption creates the space for that powerful intrinsic motivator of curiosity, and that leads to passion, purpose, autonomy, and mastery. And in that space is where we transition into the release, the phase where flow becomes unlocked. So there's the key to unlocking flow. It's how we handle stress and having a positive release from the stress and the interface response system, your flow hacking tool, becomes your X factor. Without that pause,

your conditioned mind will either forge forward harder or retreat in avoidance. And there is their fight or flight. And that is your operating system that is not working. In the process phase, we step into this space, which we've just created because we've put our system on pause, we get to reframe the narrative. You align your perspective with things like logic and rationale, understanding that stepping away, breathing, or shifting focus isn't laziness or a sign of weakness. It's a superpower, and it's a strategy. That's where we learn how to trust the cycle. This leads us to the fourth phase. Finally, we get to proceed. But now we're proceeding with intention, not reaction. forward in alignment with the natural rhythm of peak performance being our goal, allowing flow

to emerge rather than chasing it. With the interface response system, you don't just survive struggle. You learn how to leverage it. You turn what was once a barrier into a springboard. From Chitsa Mahali's pioneering research to Kotler's neuroscience deep dives, there are five core truths about how flow emerges. Flow is earned through challenge, not comfort. comes when you're stretched beyond passive ease. Two, clear goals and immediate feedback are essential. Without direction and response, the mind will drift. Three, risk, novelty, and complexity trigger the flow state. You must step into uncertainty to activate your highest potential. Four, letting go is the key to transition. You can't force flow. You can't manipulate flow. Let's make

that distinction that hacking into flow is not manipulating or forcing it, you have to actually allow it to release. Five, recovery is non-negotiable. Sustainable peak performance requires honoring rest as much as action. I can't tell you how important that is because you'll burn out and that's when flow becomes a burden. And from Kotler's rise of Superman, we learn the following. Flow follows focus. Deep uninterrupted attention is a prerequisite. The state is neurochemical. Understanding your biology helps you work with it, not against it. Practicing healthy habits and exercise are stimulants for this cycle. Three, Kotler says that struggle is productive pain. Here are my dragon thoughts. Flow isn't a mystery. It's a practice. The most significant distinction

of this awareness is that we're all capable of so much more than we know. And it's in the flow state that we tap into that state of knowing. The difference between those who occasionally stumble into flow and those who live and perform at their peak is not talent. It's how they handle struggle. Chitsamahali gave us the philosophy. Kotler gave us the science. I'm giving you the operating system. A way to navigate, a way to navigate the intentional landscape where most people unconsciously get lost. If you're serious about unlocking flow, not just once, but as a repeatable part of your life, start by mastering your response to adversity. Practice the perceived, pause, process. and proceed aspects of the interface response system.

The next time that frustration and adversity arise, watch how your relationship with challenge starts to transform, because flow doesn't come from those who force it. It comes from those who understand that surrender, guided by awareness, is the ultimate power move today. When you change the way you look at struggle, the gateway to flow opens, and suddenly everything begins to make sense.

We'll see you next time. Remember, if you learn something today, Give it away. That's how it's going to stay. We'll see you next time. Makes sense.