Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - Making Sense of the Trouble with Understanding? Episode 51

Episode Date: September 8, 2024

THE TROUBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING: Fascinating look at the arduous task at trying to understand another human and the way they are thinking, feeling and reacting, without knowing what it is like to think, feel and act like them? Available on both Apple and Spotify   MAKES SENSE PODCAST   SUBSCRIBE/RATE/REVIEW & SHARE our new podcast.    FOLLOW the NEW Podcast - You will find a "Follow" button top right. This will enable the podcast software to alert you when a new episode launches each https://podcasts.apple.com/.../makes-sense.../id1730954168 Affiliates:   Kwik Learning: Many people ask me where i get all these topics for almost 15 years? I have learned to read at almost 4 times faster with 10X retention from Kwik Learning. Learn how to learn and earn with Jim Kwik. Get his program at a special discount here: https://thelimitlesslearner.com/reading-promo62327921...   OUR SPONSORS:  - Makes Sense Academy: Enjoy the show and consider joining our psychological safe haven and environment where you can begin to thrive. The Makes Sense Academy. https://www.skool.com/makes-sense-academy/about    - The Sati Experience: A retreat designed for the married couple that truly loves one another yet wants to take their love to that higher magical level where. Come relax, reestablish and renew your love at the Sati Experience. https://www.satiexperience.com CONNECT WITH DR. JC   BLOG AND PODCAST: https://www.makessensepodcast.com  INSTAGRAM:   @drjcdoornick FACEBOOK:   https://www.facebook.com/jeanclaudedoornick/ Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hmm, makes sense. I'll tell you about an interesting breakthrough in social media that I've recently found. I'm very fascinated with algorithms and things like that. Hashtags and like, how do you, because you could be creating great content for whatever reason. It has not entered the mainstream of people recognizing it. So I'm fascinated with that. So I've been playing with all of these different things. So I put up this video the other day, and it wasn't like a huge hit, but I put up this video on the fat people.

wearing the virtual reality goggles. The banner of it said, Keep It Up America, we're almost there. And it was a video of obese people in wheelchairs wearing virtual reality goggles. If you go look at it, I mean, it's kind of like a sad but true kind of a thing. But what I did in there,

just for the heck of it, is I put a hashtag that said, Make America Great Again. Now, I'm not here to talk about that and what my opinion is of anything, but I know that that's a pretty hot topic. And I was just curious to see if that would bring new people into my context fear. And it sure did.

People that I've never heard from before chimed in, not in a positive or negative way. But what I'm saying is, is it's interesting. So I came up with a new hashtag for my campaign. And I just think this is very Make Sense Academy. That's why I'm sharing it with you. I have this interesting observation, whether it doesn't matter to me what anybody thinks. what side they're on and things like that. I do see that there's a very unconscious human behavior going on where the concept,

let's take Make America Great Again. The concept is that if you think about it, that you're asking someone else to do something, whether it's a politician or America, when you see somebody make a statement that probably unbeknownst to them says something that says like, hey, everybody, the damn ozone or something like that. In that moment, there's no self-reflection on what you're doing about it. So I came up with this new hashtag that I'm going to start using that says, make yourself great again. And just think about what that means for you today. One of the things that we do on our intake for our health coaching is we very often ask this question like in some way, shape,

or form that insinuates, hey, when was the last time you were awesome? And the reason why we asked that question is people say, oh, before I got married, but when I got, you know, when I was a kid or whatever. And then we can say, well, what's happened since then? And that's how we can highlight some things that they need to work on. But the idea is that all of us could become great again. Now, we could, we could absorb into this idea right now that we are great, but could you be greater? So I just love that idea. So I don't know. I just wanted to share, not part of our discussion today, but I just love the idea of saying, you know, why don't we begin by making yourself great again.

This conversation stems from just a really interesting, just imagine what it's like in this household with all of this stuff. You got me, the dragon, with all the whole interface response system. And then you've got chicken who's a sex therapist, mental health therapist. It's like, just imagine what those altercations are like. I mean, I don't know if you guys can see the humor in it, but like, just imagine, you know. Imagine if one of us says something that rubs the other the wrong way. It looks like it's going to be like a.

seven-hour, like, conversation, right? And very often it isn't. And I want you to, you guys to know transparently that we're not like perfect, you know, in any form of way. And we're working on ourselves just as much as anybody else. And very often, both of us lose consciousness, go below the line and all of that stuff. We don't look at that as a good or a bad thing. Last night, without getting into too many particulars, we didn't have like a big problem. We had what most people would call a misunderstanding. So think, about what a misunderstanding means. Misunderstanding is a fascinating thing. And the key word there I said was understanding. And it made me start thinking, I'm going to do a rise up that's called the trouble

with understanding. Understanding things, especially others, very, very interesting thing to acknowledge in this whole interface response system. One of the things that Mika said last night, which was really interesting for me to think about, was how would you use your interface response system to address what's going on right now. There was a misunderstanding. And it was interesting because when I thought about it, I go, well, that's a complicated thing to ask because there's an X factor going on in the sense that we're in love and we're partners.

And this is not just with a married couple or people in love. This could be with friendships. This could be with parents and all of that stuff. So it was interesting for me to look at how complicated the science and the trouble. with understanding is when you add the insecurities of emotions. And I just thought that that would be a really, really cool thing to unpack and talk about. I'm going to share with you what I came up with and we can discuss it. So I call this the trouble with understanding.

I'm fascinated to look at the arduous task of trying to understand someone and the way that they're thinking. Because in the interface response system, once you get to this assessment place, even if you're like present time conscious, you still have to some. somehow figure out how to understand somebody else and what they're feeling and what they're thinking. And I started to say, how could I do that? How is that even remotely possible without knowing what it's like to think, feel, and act like them? Isn't that interesting to just add to your present time consciousness when you're trying to understand somebody else to say, how could I

remotely succeed at that when I don't know what it's like to feel like them? and then even add to it now. This is something that I take very, very seriously because the people that I want to learn how to communicate with the most are the people that I care about the most. Because if it was an interface response system interaction with somebody that I was not in love with

or I didn't care deeply about, I could easily mechanically throw them through my sorting filter and say, who gives a shit? And then just play the role of somebody that's being compassionate and say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. But in my mind saying, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, no, no, no, no.

Don't care. Breaking news, don't care. And I've joked with everybody before and said, you know, in my family, when I say, huh, I very often get, don't, huh, me. So I want to talk about that space. It made me say, hmm. So this is a crucial step in conversation in that process of the interface response system as your ability to assess the intentions of somebody else. Remember how the interface response system works. And, you know, I always tell people that don't understand what the interface response system is, is go back to the beginning of my podcast and listen to it in its entirety, and you'll hear it. The concept is, is it begins with understanding how the brain works and how crazy things are and understanding why it's a pretty good idea to put a pause on that knee-jerk

programmed response and step into this space where you can effectively, logically, rationally assess something. So I'm talking about that assessment phase right now. So this crucial step in conversation in the interface response system as our ability to assess the intentions of somebody else, especially those that you have feelings for or have some sort of dominion over you. Think about what it's like to interface with somebody that has dominion over you. That doesn't have to be a negative thing. That could just be saying somebody that you can't avoid has impact on you. Like your mom or your kids, because the emotional tie. very, very easily can be misunderstood as you try to make sense of what you are perceiving from your perspective.

So the first thing that I was sharing with chicken this morning was that. She has this clinical perspective of it. What was interesting is she was explaining to me how she addresses this challenge with her patients. And I waited and I listened. And then I said, I'm not talking about patience. I'm talking about me, your husband. totally different ballgame. Am I right? This idea of making sense from your perspective is very, very challenging, even if you put a pause on it. Nope. If you're to effectively determine with this

sorting filter that we've built, and this is so, this work, I think the sorting filter idea just deserves so much attention. Because what I mean by that is, is this process of allowing things into your brain and trying to understand and control. and protect yourself from the poisoned of the mind, you know, the things that poison the mind, that sorting filter, you know, that basically determines what you allow or disallow or what you forgive and let go of and what you don't. That's what that sorting filter is talking about. And that's taking place during this interaction while you're trying to understand. And even look at, you know, my hands, if I put my hands up here, what does it look like to go?

I don't understand. It's like this confusing state. And what typically, happens is we just make an attempt to understand. If you get that wrong, now you've entered the deep end because then the person says, you just don't understand me. And then in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, how could I? How could I? I know you, like I know you, from my perspective, which is super complicated. But I don't know where you're coming from right now. I'll do my best and I'll try. We try to laugh at this stuff. It has a lot to do with your ability to get an effective read on the person and the stuff and add all of this stuff. To be honest with you guys, love, although it's the greatest thing I possess, is quite exhausting. And it would be very easy sometimes to say, I think I just

need a break from love. A break. What are you trying to say? No, no, no, that's not what I meant. What I meant is let's take like a lunch break. Oh, so you want to walk away from this? Funny, funny, funny. You have to be able to see the funny in that. So I'm super intrigued with this idea of understanding somebody and the science of understanding as it is achieved by making sense of what is happening. And all we ever talk about in this podcast and the environment is this science of making sense and how valuable and how awesome it is when you go, yeah, make sense. Can you also see what it's like when you go, it just doesn't make sense. And what I'm throwing on the table today is this idea of saying, Don't put so much pressure to make sense of unsensible things.

And one unsensible thing is this idea of trying to understand what it's like to be somebody else. Now, you need two to tango here. If somebody's putting this kind of work in and the other one isn't, let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. The Make Sense podcast is sponsored by the Make Sense Academy, co-created by both myself, Meeker, aka The Chicken, and The Dragon. The Make Sense Academy is a live interactive community. where like-minded, solution-focused, curious seekers of expansion,

gather daily in a mastermind setting with both Chicken and Dragon, where they have access to premium content, online courses, and powerful collaboration and networking, all for $24 a month. The Make Sense Academy and its members are solely responsible for funding the Make Sense podcast. So feel free to reach out to us at www.org.org. and check out the Make Sense Academy, risk-free, with a money-back guarantee. Now, back to the Make Sense podcast.

How do we do this? How do we understand with the highest possible level of success? Now, first of all, wouldn't that be a goal to just say, how do I navigate through understanding the best that I can, rather than, say, accomplish it and come to terms? There's always going to have to be a negotiation or a common ground to say, okay, okay, we call it agree to disagree, but do you ever a hundred percent go, oh my God, same zies? No, we just go, okay, I'll take a little bit of what you're saying a little bit and we'll meet over here and we'll just say, fair enough. I understand you, I think as you walk away.

But I mean like, do you? Do you ever feel 100% understood? I don't know what that feels like. I felt understood, but 100%? No. I think we struggle to understand ourselves. So it has a lot to do with our ability to have that effective read. So how do we do this with the highest possible level of success?

We learn to use our tools. We need tools. Chicken teaches people CBT. That's a tool. You know, a tool would be me finding out after some sort of a debacle of a conversation what I could have done better from the other person. So that the next time that I see it happen, I could pull out this tool and say, okay, I remember he or she said, this is what I could have done better.

And I whip out the tool. And I go, well, tell me more about how you're feeling and why you're feeling that way. Oh, see, you just don't understand. And they go, well, what if the tool didn't work? You know, what if the tool doesn't work? Those are our sense-making tools that I'm referring to. So almost like a curious detective, which can get you in trouble. Because when I'm in curious detective mode, what does your face look like when you're

being curious. Sometimes when your partner is speaking, you might go, you know, you might have this and then they go, what does that face mean? Oh my God, this is such a fun conversation. We have to almost act internally like a curious detective that's just trying to solve a case or even see if there is a case. Because don't we all have the ability and propensity to often talk shit? And when you're talking shit and somebody else knows you're talking shit, do you want them to tell you that you're talking shit? Starting to feel like maybe there's no solution here. So those sense-making tools,

curious detective, when I look at them, I look at our six senses. You know, basically the five senses are your eyes, ears, nose, mouth, skin, to see, hear, smell, taste, feel.

But then that sixth sense, for the sake of this conversation in our sense-making tools, let's assume those to be our consciousness, our ability to be aware and conscious, and maybe our intuition. Let's call that our sixth sense because there's a reading of energy when you're in the assessment phase and you're trying to sort what's going on. And when you're talking to somebody that you are emotionally bonded with, you don't have the option of walking away when you want to.

You can do that in another conversation. You know, if I had a patient or a client that I'm talking to and I'm ready to be done with it, I could say, okay, I've got another call. I've got to go now. But you can't do that. So there's a whole new level of understanding when you're speaking to somebody that you're emotionally bonded with. While we're in that phase of the interface or while we're in the various phase of the interface, we must always bypass. Well, we have to learn how to first bypass our analytical programmed knee-jerk phase of that program mind.

Why? Because we know that that initial perception, that initial knee-jerk, my wife and I identify that there's certain words or topics. that even if we're poking fun at them, still create an emotional and physical trigger. And you guys all have them. I know that. Everybody has a version of that. So that's why I have to learn, and this is one of my tools, to pause that. So we teach, hold on.

It's okay. I feel it. I understand why I feel it. Pause it. And make an attempt to step into this space, or as the yogi we've heard from said, to drop in to that space. so that we can bypass that analytical mind and have an assessment without the tainted mind, the poisoned mind potentially, or the persuaded mind that has many variables to it.

We have to just say, okay, you just take a lunch break for a second. So remember what we're pausing is our perspective, and where does our perspective come from is it comes from our life experience, our mother, father, teacher, preacher, society, evolution as well as our own potentially biased mood that day at that time or temperament that could be coming into play as well. We have to pause that too. Do you ever recognize that you're in a bad mood and take that into consideration when you look at how you're responding to something? Now, I can give you at the risk of getting in trouble. I can give you an example. I live in a house with three women and two of those women every now and then say to me, I'm so sorry,

but I'm on my period. So how would I know? There's a lot of variables here. And by the way, men get their period as well. That shows up in a different way. So that's troubled waters for me right there. I'm going to get out of there for a second. I want to go over here something interesting

because I looked up the science of understanding people and their intentions. I said, well, what does science tell us? How do we navigate and how do we do our best at understanding people and their intentions? Because that's what we're trying to do in that assessment phase. when we're sorting. Here's what the science says. This is with what we're taught in school.

The science of understanding people and their intentions includes the study of psychology, behavioral science, and theory of mind. So I don't know if you've ever put this together, but psychology, by the way, is the study of the mind and behavior, including how the brain functions, how people act and how children develop. That's what psychology is. The study of psychology is that stuff. Now, behavioral science, and I studied behavioral psychology in college, Behavioral science is the study of human behavior through observation and experimentation, but the theory of the mind, these are all things that we're recognizing should deserve a pause. The theory of the mind is the ability to understand what others are thinking.

This is the biggest challenge. How do you, would you rate your ability to understand what other people are thinking and feeling by using cognitive thought processes and rules for how people should think and feel? Oh, that's scary. What if you tried to understand somebody and why they're acting the way they're acting and saying what they're saying, based on how they should be acting and thinking?

This is the trouble with understanding. If you're running it through a filter and comparing it to what somebody taught us, they should be saying what's right versus wrong, you can easily judge and say this person's out of their mind, according to what I've learned. So this theory suggests that people, can develop theories about human behavior to explain and predict others' actions.

Well, that sounds safe. Let me just design some theories around how you're thinking, right? So some say that the ability to accurately infer others' thoughts or determine other thoughts, understand other's thoughts, intentions, and emotional states is often associated with empathy. Oh, there's the word. There's the word that everybody wants to say. You have to practice empathy. What is empathy if you really think about it? This ability may involve both automatic and emotional responses and learned conceptual reasoning, matching and mirroring and doing things to not only understand and empathize, but show that you understand and empathize.

Have you ever heard somebody talk and in your brain say, I get it, I understand? But your facial expression and your forgettance of saying something to indicate that leaves them at a blank and maybe your face for a second looked off and they go, what is that supposed to mean? And you're thinking, no, no, no, I understand. I understand. But it's only in my brain and I haven't said anything yet. So remember, part of understanding is not just you understanding. It's letting the other person in the interplay of communication know you understand. It's almost your responsibility to say something to elicit the two most powerful words you could ever hear in a conversation when somebody goes, yes, that's it. That's right. And I think

that's where the concept of amen comes from. Do you know what amen means? It means, uh-huh, that's right. It's an agreement. So here's some techniques that we're taught that may help people understand others. Pay attention to appearance. Look at body language and stuff like that. You can do that. These are mechanical, by the way, don't rely on them. Notice what others are wearing, such as a power suit, jeans. You can look at, you know, notice posture. Ask yourself if somebody is holding their head high, which may indicate confidence, or low, which may indicate lack of confidence. Let go of trying to read the body language, try to stay relaxed and fluid and simply observe, tune into their feelings, and then use the practice of mindfulness to guide behavior by paying attention to feelings both of your own and

those of the others around you. Sounds very difficult to do that. But once again, if you're in a clinical setting or you're acting the role of a coach much easier because there's no emotional connection. So here's the thing. All of these tools are wonderful, but they only allow you to formulate an educated guess. Or we could call an assumption of what it is that people are trying to say and your level of accuracy of knowing and letting them know will be based on your ability to draw from your own life experience relatively similar, hopefully. Think about that for a second. The only way I can understand you is by drawing what I perceive in my life experience is similar. Like I was talking to chicken about this and somebody could say I'm afraid of flying. And if you're not afraid of flying,

how could you empathize with that? Well, you'd have to ask yourself, what am I afraid of? Spiders. Oh, okay, I understand what it's like to be afraid. But do you understand what it's like for them to be afraid of flying? It's difficult. What I'm trying to say is you can only do your best in making the assumption and hopefully come close enough that you'll understand and they'll say something like, yes, that's a difficult task, especially when there's emotional connection. So you have to get close enough in your perception and your experience to theirs that they will respond with those two words. That's right. You got it right. The science, art, and philosophy of effective interfacing and communication and practice of empathy falls on your ability to use these tools. To listen.

Ask effective questions at the right time. Effective, right? We have to practice this stuff. Praction, remember? But your success will always fall in your ability or inability to correlate their explanation, what they're saying, with one of your own. That's the trouble with understanding is you're two different people. So the biggest challenge in relationships, no? Understanding one another, feeling like you are understood while at the same time being able to self-assess your own posture during this, your tone of voice. Has anyone ever accused you of having a tone that you didn't think you had? What was that tone? Oh, God, I can't believe it. I go, what do you mean? What did I do? And they go, it's not what you said, it's how you said it. And then you think, okay, well, I love this person,

so I'm going to work on my tone. Oh, I don't believe you, right? Difficult. Difficult task. And I'll tell you what my solution is, is first of all, there's no solution. It's okay to just acknowledge that it's difficult. And that's why I said before sometimes we use a little bit of comedy. You know, sometimes comedy could be misconstrued as like not taking people seriously. So you need two people for the comedy, right? Whenever Chicken and I have some sort of a misunderstanding, oh, there's nothing better than reaching that common ground eventually.

There's nothing better than that. because not only do we come to some sort of a common ground, but then we can go back to laughing about it. But we do see that we have to go through the passage of pain to get there. And sometimes if you're tired and you had a long day, do you want to go through that passage of pain all the time? Or do you sometimes pull a face, have a tone that says, oh, God, this again.

What are you saying to me? Oh, you're just going to walk away from this? And by the way, when I do that voice, I'm not referring only to my wife. I'm referring to myself as well. We all do this. Maybe we should just run away from love. Would that be the solution? No.

So what is the solution? What is the best possible scenario? I've racked my brain about this in this potential impossible task. As you guys all know, when I make an assumption that I have figured something out, take it with a great assault. Do not acknowledge it as the truth. just allow yourself to say, huh, and then get the heck away and make up your own mind. I feel that the solution lies in speaking softly and carrying a big stick.

And I say this very often. This is a wonderful thing that I try to practice. Speak softly and carry a big stick. In this instance, what that means is to talk less, speak softly. Talk less. Listen more. And in this case, listening is your big stick. Think about what that means.

speak softly and carry a big stick, an impactful big stick. And what that big stick is in this case is listening more. There's a big difference between listening and active listening. Listening does not take into account your posture in your face. When you're listening to somebody, you look different. Your body looks different. Your arms are not crossed. You're not showing any signs of confusion or disagreement.

You're just looking. And what you look like is you're paying attention. Not just listening. Your big stick is not just listening. It's active listening. So when it comes to your posture and facial expressions, perhaps you're best suited. Because you never know how to get that right. Because remember, we sometimes accuse one another of pulling a face or indicating something

when it may not be the case. So I think you're best suited to try and match and mirror their posture. Think about what that means. If somebody that you're in a conversation with is sad and crying, you shouldn't look happy, right? You shouldn't look happy. You don't have to start crying, but you should have some sort of a face of empathy. Why? Because it shows that you're listening.

If you didn't react in a similar way to what they're saying, the perception would be that you don't care or you're not listening. So that would be a tool. That's a tool. Remember, you know, sometimes you swing a hammer and you miss the nail, but the hammer still works. So you've got to practice. So listening is your big stick. When it comes to your posture and facial expressions, perhaps would be best to mirror theirs. And at the same time, recognize that the goal, this is the big one.

The goal is not perfection. The goal is not to get it right. The goal is to always seek improvement. The goal is not perfection. So take everything that is happening, including what you're hearing me say with a grain of salt as sometimes humans speak out words that are persuaded in an unconscious fashion by thoughts, feelings, emotions, and the mood they're in. What I mean is you're always going to experience situations where you do everything in your power to do it right and the outcome is not what you

hoped it would be because human beings are very often persuaded by their thoughts and feelings and emotions and the mood that they're in right there. So rather than trying so hard to understand, this is how you remove the trouble with understanding. Rather than trying so hard to understand that sometimes what I call ununderstandable, perhaps just listen and observe versus try to participate and react. Until I come up with a better solution, which might happen later today or tomorrow, that's the one I'm going with, right? Hey, love and I appreciate you.

Have an amazing day. And if you learn something today, remember, give it away. That's how it's going to stay. Makes sense.