Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - THEY’RE CONTROLLING YOU - The Cult We’re All In: The Invisible Science of Social Control with Georgia Clare - Episode 139

Starting point is 00:00:00 It was all I'd ever known. So, like you say, I was almost born into. I was nine months old, actually, when my parents got involved in it. And I didn't know anything else, but it was very much a closed community. Have you noticed that the world that we live in has been doing most of the thinking for you? That your beliefs, perceptions, reactions, fears and doubts have been shaped by unsolicited outside noise? How easy it's been for you to slip into the sense. that default sleepwalking mode and label it as life and reality. Yeah, that ends here. Welcome to the

Starting point is 00:00:37 Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast. This is your opportunity to start thinking for yourself, reclaim control, and step back into that role as the shock caller and dominant force of your own reality. It's when you change the way that you look at things, that the things that you look at begin to change. So let's wake up, let's rise up, and let's make sense of why and how shift happens. Georgia, welcome to the Make Sense with Dr. JCP podcast. I'm so happy that we met. We met on Substack. Georgia's a writer and you're going to find out everything about her, but she's just delightful. I do another show sometimes on Substack called The Writer's Way, and that's how I met Georgia. And we were talking all about her writing, but when I heard about her story, I said to her,

Starting point is 00:01:31 man, we got to do a podcast episode on that sometime. And here we are. So good, to see you again, my friend. Thank you. I'm pleased to be here. Thank you. You're living in France still? Yes. Yes, I live in the southwest of France. Right. Doesn't she, she doesn't sound like she's from France, does she? No, no. I'm from the UK, so I do, I kind of go back and forth, but my home is France. Right. I'm so excited to get into this. We're calling this episode the Science of Belief. this one is going to really, really help people arm themselves with the weapon of awareness to look at things differently. You know, we very often talk about the power of changing the way that you look at things

Starting point is 00:02:16 and therefore having that be the catalyst to change the way things are in your life. And I think one of the biggest things people struggle with is without even knowing it, how they're conditioned to see things a certain way and therefore react. to certain things away, have concepts and opinions and all of that stuff without even knowing that they didn't even come up with them in the first place. George has got a fascinating story, and it'll bring us all the way up into where she's at today. But I'd love to go back and get into this fascinating story, because from what I understand, and if you could kind of share as far back as you remember, Georgia was a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. When I say that, I don't know what

Starting point is 00:02:59 anybody thinks. All I know about Jehovah's witnesses is that my friend Georgia was in it, so it can't be that bad, right? But you didn't really have a choice because you kind of were born into it. So if you could just take me through that experience of growing up in it and maybe what you liked about it and things before you kind of had a little bit of an awakening and maybe realized whatever it was that made you decide to leave. Yes. Well, the thing is, is, it was all I'd ever known. So, like you say, I was, I was almost born into, I was nine months old, actually, when my parents got involved in it. And I didn't know anything else, but it was very much a closed community. I didn't have any friends who weren't Jehovah's Witnesses as a child.

Starting point is 00:03:52 I wasn't allowed to go to other children's houses or play with them or have them to my house unless they were Jehovah's Witnesses. It was very strict. When I was a child, there were three meetings a week and we went preaching as well on a Saturday morning. It was everything was, there was lots of rules. Everything was controlled right down to the way I spoke, the way I dressed. what I read, what I watched, what I listened to music-wise. Absolutely every aspect of my life was based on different rules. But it also wasn't all bad because it was a community.

Starting point is 00:04:40 So like I say, I'd never known anything else. But I grew up as part of a congregation of people that I thought I could trust. They were like family. We did things together. We traveled a lot when I was a child all over Europe, and we would go to different congregations wherever we were, and it was instant community and friendship. So it was, yeah, another thing that it gave me as I grew up

Starting point is 00:05:10 and I became an adult is it gave me a real sense of purpose, because I really believed it. I believed that what I had was was the truth and that I needed to tell other people about it. And that did give me a sense of meaning and my place in the world and what I was here to do. So yeah. It's so fascinating. A couple of things I want to hit on that. First of all, I allow myself to entertain all aspects of everything.

Starting point is 00:05:44 So I'm just thinking like, first of all, this idea of, of living in a closed, protected environment indicates that you don't know that you're missing anything if you're in an environment and you think that's all it is. You know, if you look up the story of Plato's cave, there was a situation where they had prisoners in a cave and all they saw were the shadows on the wall. And they thought that was reality to the point where when one of them escaped, he actually came running back because he thought everything else was a farce. So what's fascinating about that to me, though, is if you look at how just insane the world is in so many components these days, it sounds like it might be beneficial to a certain degree to live in a closed environment.

Starting point is 00:06:32 Like I'll give you an example. If we consider a closed environment, like me putting my kids in a situation where they couldn't use social media or they couldn't watch TV. Now, some people would have a problem against that, but God wouldn't that be beneficial in certain? certain ways. That's fascinating to look at it like that. I guess one of the challenges that we have when we live in a closed environment is that sooner or later we find out that we live in a closed environment. You know, I mean, I've shared with you that, you know, my sister lives in an environment like that. And she does not recognize anything outside of it as appropriate or it's not in alignment. But I would assume one day she might have something happen where she'll have a different

Starting point is 00:07:23 insight and say, wait a second, I'm being held back from my human right to explore and make up my own decisions. So take us through how that transpired because there's different stages. I'm very fascinated with the concept of the cult. And we're going to draw on that in today's day and age. you know, it basically takes some sort of a charismatic leader. And if you look up the history of Jehovah's Witnesses or anything, right, or even our society, it begins with some sort of a charismatic leader.

Starting point is 00:07:55 There's some sort of a recruiting process. And there's an idea that makes very, very good sense that brings people in. You know, if somebody joins Scientology, they're not doing it because they think it's a bad idea. But then once you're in, there's some sort of relinquishing of your power into the closed environment, and then there's also some sort of a penalty for exiting. So take us through that process where you kind of woke up and figured this out, and how did you negotiate exiting? Well, that's interesting. It obviously, like anything, it wasn't an overnight process. In fact, it was very gradual, just looking at the books on your shelf behind you, and I've got

Starting point is 00:08:44 in front of me of books. I mean, I've always been a reader, so I read novels and things like that. There's a lot of self-help books, for instance, like the first one that I read was The Power of Now. That was not really, that was frowned upon. And I can remember reading it, and I think it was around maybe 2010. And I remember reading it and feeling almost guilty for really. reading it because of the ideas it was proposing. And that, I think, was the start of it. Maybe even a year or two earlier when I came across the book, The Secret. And again, the ideas in it, the idea of thinking for yourself and was very different to anything that I'd come across before. Most of my books like that were Bible-based. And

Starting point is 00:09:43 from the Jehovah's Witness organization. So I really wasn't supposed to read books like that. But the more I read, the more I started to actually think for myself. And it was a gradual awakening. And it sort of went from me going to me reading their publications and going to their meetings and believing everything to then actually going. to a meeting and thinking, I'm not sure if I agree with that anymore, actually. But I think the power of now had the biggest impact on me.

Starting point is 00:10:22 It was like, it was like an amazing wake-up call. Because the way the Jehovah's Witnesses belief and faith is that you're living for a future date, you're living for a time. We all, they all believed that the Jehovah's Witnesses are the only ones who will, live forever on the earth and everybody else will not be around. So everybody's living for this future date when things are perfect on the earth, not living for now. They're all living for something in the future. And I just thought, I'm missing my life. I should be living now. I should be enjoying every day now. And so I kept on reading because that's me. That's how I learn and

Starting point is 00:11:13 get through things. And I just kept reading and reading different things and started to gradually change my thinking and the gap. It was a gap that widened. This is fascinating. So just to recap, it was all you knew was a closed environment. And the only time you ever got to go out and explore was to go visit other environments, which was probably about as exciting as it got. And in that closed environment, it's a high control environment as well. And one of the things that I really want to hit on that's going to come into play with the next part of this conversation was that you somehow got your hands on this book, one of the greatest books ever, the power of now, which talks about something that most humans struggle with, but at least outside of the environment you're in, people have access to learning about the present moment. I always say we have to unwrap the present moment, this beautiful, generous present moment. But part of the control was fear-based, and it was about this idea, if you're not doing this,

Starting point is 00:12:23 if you're not following these rules, you're going to be damned like everybody else. I would assume that is what would prompt you to go out and preach to others to try to save them, right? But at the same time, the environment you were in sounded like a safe place and it sounded like you felt love and it gave you purpose. So that said, how did you cop a book of the power of now? Were you just like a naughty girl that like stepped into a library down the street? How did you do it? Well, it wasn't like anybody's, you know, watching what I do in that, they're, you know, checking what I'm on Amazon or going the bookshop. But it is, you're right, it's fear-based. So I knew that maybe that wasn't, I shouldn't be reading things like that.

Starting point is 00:13:18 I shouldn't be thinking things like that. I should just concentrate on whatever the Bible teaches, and that should be enough. I shouldn't need anything other than. that. But I can't remember where I bought it actually. Oh, how I came across it. Strange. I just, I can't remember. But I did. And I remember it being on the arm of the chair, the sofa, when I think my sister came to visit. And I thought, oh, I don't know if I wanted to see that, even though my sister's very open-minded. Yeah, so it was that sort of, that thinking of, it's me. It's the, all the way I was brought up was you follow the rules and you don't do anything to bring a reproach on, of something I was always told was don't bring reproach on Jehovah's name, which Jehovah is God.

Starting point is 00:14:17 Well, that's what they teach anyway. So, yeah, it was just, like I say, it was a gradual process for a few years. But then in 2016, I was, we were, my ex-husband and I were living in Thailand. And our reason for being in Thailand was as missionaries. And we worked in the head office there, we called the Bethel. So is there a process when you reach a certain age or something where like many other religions, you're called to go out and preach? And I would assume, I would assume that's the marketing and advertising campaign. What is that?

Starting point is 00:14:56 It is. But no, you preach from very young, from a child, you taught to preach. I was taught to, I learned sermons and Bible scriptures when I was five years old. In fact, when I was five, I was giving talks from the stage, from the platform at the Kingdom Hall, which is their church. So you're taught to do that from a very young age. and then you get to a certain age, teens usually, sometimes younger, sometimes older, where you decide to get baptized. It's kind of, it's not pushed, but it's expected.

Starting point is 00:15:36 It's expected to do that. Also, it's expected that when you leave school, you don't go into, I think this has changed recently, funnily enough, but for me, going into higher education was a no-no. is definitely not allowed to do. I was expected to leave school and go full-time, really, into the preaching work and do a part-time job to support myself. That's what kids my age did if they were spiritual.

Starting point is 00:16:12 So we're going to draw a pretty crazy reflection on how I can't wait to get to the part of this conversation where I'm just going to ask you. So now that you've left that cult, how do you like our cult? But the word sin is very, very commonly used here. And it's a way of making somebody feel ashamed for doing something. And it's no different, you know. So I get that. And if that's ingrained into a child, talk about childhood trauma.

Starting point is 00:16:40 We all have childhood trauma. It's no different. So we forgive everybody for they know not what they do. But that's a really, really interesting. thing. So you're in this other country. You said it was Thailand? Yes. Yeah. We visited Thailand in 2007 as a family, my two daughters, just on holiday vacation. And we kind of fell in love with it. But we went to the local congregation in Phuket. And we thought, hey, wouldn't it be cool if we could come and work here and preaching as missionaries? So,

Starting point is 00:17:20 So we wrote to the Bethel, which is their head office. And of course, they said, yeah, that would be great. So we did. And it was fabulous, to be honest. It was a wonderful adventure because we did it as a family. And for many years, we were there as a family. But then as the girls got older, late teens, early 20s, they didn't want to be there anymore. It wasn't for them.

Starting point is 00:17:47 So we came back to France, rented them a house here, and then my ex-husband and I went back to Thailand. And that's when we started working in the head office there. And the thing is, as we both got closer to the top, effectively, especially him as a man, it was a little bit like the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. You kind of sees that things aren't actually the way we're all told. and we both became rather disillusioned. You know, I love the analogy of the Wizard of Oz. But I would assume that I think his last name was Russell that created this and then it evolved.

Starting point is 00:18:32 And by the way, you know, what I found is that this was created based on the idea that the Christian religion was somewhat corrupt or something like that. So that was part of it as well. What, do you want to be corrupt? Oh, no, you don't want to come here. here. But I would assume that if I was running some sort of an organization like this, that I would be fully aware, because I mean, all these stories you hear are when you're too close to the fire, you burn your hands. So I would assume that that is the danger zone or maybe the structure is set. And, you know, this is in the assumption that the people that are running something like this

Starting point is 00:19:10 are trying to prevent people from finding out this information. I would assume that the, that they felt that at that level that you're so committed that you won't care when you notice that. How does that work, you know? And also, what was it, what were the types of things that you saw that made you go, hmm? Well, living in Thailand, obviously, it's a poorer country. But then there's a huge, there's not really, or when we live there anyway, which is, you know, around 2015 time and before that. there wasn't much of a middle class. There's a massive divide between the rich and the poor.

Starting point is 00:19:52 And most of the people in the congregation that we were in were very poor. And we were working at this Bethel, spending time there doing different things, getting to know people there. And it just seemed like, I can remember one instance where there was an older couple in the Kingdom Hall. and he got really sick and they were very poor. So he was only able to afford to go into the government hospital,

Starting point is 00:20:28 which conditions, I didn't go and see him in hospital, but my husband did, and he just said, I can't even tell you how awful it was there. And I'm thinking to myself, okay, at Bethel, they have a fleet of cars that are, are, and cars are expensive in Thailand, much more expensive than in Europe and the UK, because it's a relatively new thing there. And I saw this fleet of cars that actually were not always used, they were there just in case.

Starting point is 00:21:04 And there's all sorts of other things that, you know, money's no object. and they can't help somebody in the local congregation who's been faithful to go to a decent hospital. And it was just little things like that and hypocritical things as well, people professing to be poor and spiritual, because actually the poorer you were, the more spiritual you were. So professing to be like that, but actually, you know, you spot them wearing a Rolex and it's not a cheap one from Bangkok and accepting gifts for positions and just lots of little things that I noticed that, and to be honest, not necessarily so much that I noticed, but that my husband noticed because obviously being a man, he had a position as an elder, but the big, the straw that

Starting point is 00:22:05 the kennel's back was I was on my own in Bangkok for a month and I got two things actually, I got bitten by a dog quite badly on my leg, which, and I was out on the preaching work at the time and it totally freaked me out and I was not in a good way. And I just kept thinking, I was always told that, you know, God is looking after you, Jehovah's protecting you. I'm out here doing his work and I've been mauled by a dog and having to go to the hospital every single day and traumatized by the whole thing and I kept thinking why didn't he protect me? Why didn't he protect me? But the big thing was while he was the way my husband sent me and he said, you're not going to like this but I want you to watch this YouTube video. He said,

Starting point is 00:22:56 please watch it. And it was, I don't know if you've heard of the Australia Commission It was in 2015-16. The government in Australia took the Jehovah's Witnesses to court because they'd uncovered over 1,000 cases of hidden child abuse. Okay. And so some of the top members of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, one in particular had to go to Australia and be, it was like a courtroom situation,

Starting point is 00:23:32 and it was on YouTube. And I didn't watch it all, but I did watch some of this. And it was relevant to me, which my husband knew, because I'd been abused by my father as a child. And my sister had two. And it was me who put him in prison when I was 29. And so I remember watching this and thinking, I can't be past this.

Starting point is 00:23:58 All of a sudden, you started to, as I would say, make sense of things. things. This is so fascinating. Once again, I think it's important to, because I'm going to ask you a question, but before I do that as a disclaimer, I do have some friends that are Jehovah's Witnesses. And if they watch this and listen to this, they're going to say this woman's crazy. She's lost her mind. And you know what? There's a good chance because if I like Georgia, she could have lost her mind because I like people like that. But my point is, is that. But my point is that, just for the sake of recognizing, this is her experience, and that's all that matters, right?

Starting point is 00:24:38 We are not, this is not an attack against an organization. This is a woman's story. That's important for everybody to understand. Yes, sorry, I don't want to be. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. I also, I'm very conscious there are plenty of people out there on YouTube bashing the Jehovah's Witnesses and trying to pull them down. I'm not doing that.

Starting point is 00:25:01 This is my experience and all I want to do is use my experience to help other people. That's it. And as you'll see, the whole root of this show has very little to do with this particular organization because this can happen in any case. I mean, like if somebody is out there and they are just deeply rooted from birth as like a Republican or a Democrat, like it could be, they might realize they're in a cult as well. What I'm hearing, though, is that somebody. else that went through your experience or your husband's experience could very easily justify

Starting point is 00:25:37 it and just say, oh, well, and not find that YouTube video or see the YouTube video and not believe it. So the science of belief is really the situation here. Is it safe to say that for whatever reason you and your husband were in an open and curious position where perhaps you were curious to find out if what you were involved in. was legit. I mean, were you curious about it? Or did the universe just send you that YouTube video and send you the Australian Dory? I think it was a bit of both, to be honest. I think we had each other for a star, so we had the support that we could talk together about it and discuss things. I think that in many ways, yeah, I came across things just at the right time.

Starting point is 00:26:31 But I think I'd become more open-minded. Plus, being in Thailand at the time, I was kind of away from a loss. I was away from any family or close friends. We both were. And being in a foreign country, it can draw you closer together when you're dealing with something. So, no, I think it's... It was just that, really. I just got to the point where I thought,

Starting point is 00:27:07 I can't be a part of this. I can't be true to myself. I can't be authentic and be part of it. It just sort of seemed like I just had to make a decision. I knew how massive the decision was because I knew what could happen. And what did happen actually was that I lost pretty much, all my friends and my mother and my brother cut off all contact with me.

Starting point is 00:27:38 Before we get to that part, what's fascinating and what we love to talk about is just how, for the most part, I perceive that to a degree the world is sleepwalking, meaning, you know, via cognitive bias, they've decided on something and don't let anything else in. And this is one of our biggest challenges to the point where if anything new comes into your field of perception, and it's not in line with what you know and you've grown up knowing, not only will you discount it, but you will look at it as the devil. You know, I mean, it's the opposite. For the most part, I consider that the world is in a drift, you know, just like you go in the ocean and you start swimming. And it's not until you look at the beach

Starting point is 00:28:22 and realize that your towel is like a mile up the beach that you realize that you've drifted. So I understand how you were kind of having these insights and it was a congruency thing. And you just said, I can't be 100% committed and lock everything else out if this is going on. There must be something else out there to know. So I get that. But part of the structure, which by the way is not a Jehovah's Witness thing, a lot of people listening to this right now are locked into ideas and concepts. and if they decide to get out of it, on the family level and the community level, there's a price to pay. So what was it like that moment where you said, or you and your husband said,

Starting point is 00:29:08 I think we need to get out of here, but felt that wave of penalty and damnation coming as a result and potentially losing everything? Well, we made, funnily enough, we made the decision separately. I decided first and I just said to him, I can't do this anymore. I just, it's wrong. It just feels so wrong. And he said, okay, well, I'm going to keep going for a bit longer. But actually, I think he only carried on for about a month.

Starting point is 00:29:41 And he said, oh, you know, I just can't do it as well. But I think what you were talking about, about the expression cognitive dissonance came to me. because we often see what we want to see. And like you say, this isn't just in a cult or religion or a community. It can be in a marriage. It can be anything, really. Our belief, we believe what we want to believe. And consequently, we often see what we want to see.

Starting point is 00:30:18 And this is not always a good thing because a lot of our beliefs, beliefs are, can be outdated. They can be from childhood, from a life that we're not really living anymore. And it can limit us in so many ways to have the constrained by these beliefs can stop us from living a full life. And I was so determined not to do that. I realized that I did want to live a full life. I didn't. It wasn't like I'd, you know, I was 95 and I'd left. So, you know, I was 49 when I left. So, you know, plenty of life still to live. But, but I also realized that maybe I could help others because I was able to come through it. And it did take work, actually. I did lots of different things to help me get rid of these limited.

Starting point is 00:31:20 beliefs. And I believe that I have. I mean, I don't think you necessarily always get rid of all of them. That's an interesting question that just popped into my head is you've come so far, and I won't ask your age. But that's not what this episode's about. Here I am. I'm 54, going to be 55 this year. And I have childhood trauma. That still affects me today. Are you conscious of some of those beliefs that are still playing out? Yes, I think I am, funnily enough, very recently on 24th of December. I went to Midnight Mass in the UK with my partner. I'd never been to a church service before,

Starting point is 00:32:09 and I haven't sort of eight years ago since I left, so it's not something I've had anything to do with. I went from having the Bible and spirituality that way in my life 24-7 to nothing, to really pushing that all the way and not wanting anything to do with it anymore. And then I went to this midnight mass just purely out of curiosity. It was beautiful. It was a wonderful experience to see people getting together. We all understand childhood trauma.

Starting point is 00:32:46 And even though we've quote unquote moved past things, I'm a different person now. I can look back at some of my belief systems that I had when I was a child. I understood they came from my mother, father, teacher, preacher. But even though I know that they are not in line with me anymore, they don't have agency anymore, to a degree they do every now and then. And it might show up how I fly off the handle or notice something bothers me or I get nervous. Yeah, I do understand that. Yes, I think every so often, I, what you know, it was about two years ago, I did a sort of a course that really helped me to dig deep within myself. And it was really enlightening because it helped me to see a lot of my limiting beliefs.

Starting point is 00:33:38 And I think now I am aware of them, doubt whether I'm aware of all of them, but I've worked very hard. on getting rid or you don't really get rid of a belief, you just change it out and swap it for something new. I've worked really hard on that and it has changed my life. Just a simple thing of before I thought that I knew what was right. I was convinced what I believed was absolutely right and it's what everybody should believe. And I did not believe that one bit now. Obviously I do still have beliefs that are mine, but I believe everybody has the right to believe whatever they believe. And it doesn't bother me when I hear a belief, for instance, that is completely against what I believe, because I try and respect other people's choices. But yes, I think I'm trying to be

Starting point is 00:34:38 aware of what's holding me back, having a limiting belief. Writing helps. a lot with that. I write every morning, and I've done it for years and years, I write a journal. No, massive what, even if I'm away or journal goes with me. I don't, I never don't write my journal. That wasn't very good English, actually. Grammatically, you correct, but I always write my journal. And that has helped a lot. That really helps me to kind of see what I feel. I think it was Flannery O'Connor who said, I don't know what I think until I read. Yeah. And we don't take ownership of it until we write it down.

Starting point is 00:35:24 And thank God. Thank God that you started writing, because, A, I wouldn't know you because I met you in that realm. And also, you know, obviously we'll put all of Georgia's contact information. You know, she just has a delightful substack, which is a free newsletter that anybody could sign up for. And you said before, and this is. a big challenge that if I have a belief, which is fine, as you said, if I have a belief and I said,

Starting point is 00:35:50 that's my belief, but I still struggle when I hear somebody else share their belief, then I don't know if that is being conscious as an observer of your belief system, if you can't recognize that everybody's allowed to have a belief system, whether it's in alignment with yours. So this concept of being free, because somebody that's still in the Jehovah's Witness will look at you and not see that you're free. They'll see you're lost and confused because they're still tethered to something and nothing else. But, and you know what? We can't discount that because they're right too, right?

Starting point is 00:36:27 Because that's their version of right. Exactly. But where what's your current reality on what freedom means? What does it mean for you now? Because, I mean, the world is your oyster. You can leave this podcast right now and walk down the street and get a baguette and a pound chocolate and go into a magazine store and read any damn thing you want. So tell me what your definition of freedom is.

Starting point is 00:36:56 Freedom. I think I appreciate my freedom so much because I think you have to have, it's like you have to have cold to know what hot is. You have to have inside to have an outside. So I've known what not having freedom is. So now I am free. I just, I never take it for granted. I appreciate it so much. And freedom for me is being able to think for myself,

Starting point is 00:37:27 is to read what I want, to ponder on it, and not have any preconceived idea and old beliefs that tell me how I should be thinking. about something, about anything, about world events, about spirituality, about how I should dress or what I should watch on TV. That is freedom for me, freedom to write what I want, to express myself. Actually, yes, that is the biggest freedom for me, is to be able to just to write and to help other people with my experiences and just be open and authentic and not trying to be something, not trying to live up to standards or obviously we all have

Starting point is 00:38:21 standards and that's a good thing. But somebody else's rules and standards, I have my own standards now, I have my own beliefs and their beliefs and standards and ideas. that I've crafted myself. Obviously, they're still going to be influenced by my childhood, by the experiences I've had in my life, places I've lived, where I live now, culture. But I've made those decisions. Nobody else.

Starting point is 00:38:54 Nobody's forced me. Nobody's made me feel bad because of the decisions I'm making. It's just that's freedom. That is absolute freedom to me. You just said a word that is just so powerful in this moment, and that is the word culture. You know, if you look at the first four letters, it says cult. The coolest part about traveling, if you've never been somewhere, is to experience their culture. And what's interesting about that is how we don't seem to have a problem with that.

Starting point is 00:39:28 We could say we like it or we don't like it. How did you like the French culture? I liked it. I didn't like it. But it's accepting. It's the French culture. It's just fascinating. And I think the biggest challenge that we have is that there's a paradox.

Starting point is 00:39:44 If I snap my fingers and you were back before the power of now. And I said, Georgia, what is your definition of freedom? You probably, just like somebody else in that situation, would probably define freedom as freedom from problems. and freedom from, like if I throw all the TVs out here, I can say freedom from the chaos of the news and the idiot box or something. So it's just fascinating. You know, I didn't have to worry about buying my children, new shoes or feeding them. Right.

Starting point is 00:40:19 That's a freedom. But I think, like I said, you have to experience not having freedom before you can truly, truly appreciate it. I believe. What's fascinating about the topic of freedom, maybe this could be a collaboration we could do on Substance, is just like beauty, it's in the eyes of the beholder, right? I mean, so if we were to go around and interview a million people about freedom, we would have to accept all of them as their experience.

Starting point is 00:40:51 As we kind of come to the end, I want to move into this very interesting concept that I've been sharing with you. I'm just going to read one of the questions that I wrote, and I'd love to get your reflection on it. You don't need to be in a religious organization to live inside what we consider to be a closed belief system. Because from the outside, if you don't think you live in a closed belief system

Starting point is 00:41:14 and you look at something like Jehovah's Witness and you go, that's a closed, controlled belief system, you're just not living in the, as Eckhart Tolley would say, the now, and you're not looking around at your own. So we don't have to be in a religious organization to live in a closed belief system. when you look at the modern media, the politics, the social identity, we see some of the same patterns. Here's my question.

Starting point is 00:41:39 If someone consumes the same narratives every day and never questions them. So think about what that means. I always say what we consume, we assume. And with social media right now, people listening to this podcast are consuming it right now. And I want to take this opportunity to say, you do not. have to create an opinion on this episode on me on Georgia on the topic it's just something that you're consuming and you can process it and take something from it or not but if someone consumes the same narratives narrows down and consumes the same narratives and that's what a closed environment is

Starting point is 00:42:19 and we're living in one right now every day but never questions them I'm okay with anybody consuming whatever they want that's up to them. What I encourage people to do is question them. So if they don't question them, how is that any different from what we call a high controlled belief system? How is our world today? Because everybody right now is filing in their opinions and their concepts and I like, I don't like. She's crazy. He's crazy. I'm not. I'm crazy. They're crazy. And then there's people that are just floating and confusion. How is the world that we live in, if we're looking at the idea of a closed, controlled belief system, how is the world we live in today any different than Jehovah's Witness?

Starting point is 00:43:09 Well, it's not. If we don't question, and I think that you've hit the nail on the head there really, because that is the most important thing we can do is question things all the time. I do it even now. I question whether I'm making the most of my life. It's a precious gift, what we have. For me to be this age now is a precious gift. And if I don't constantly question whether this is right for me, what I'm doing, the things I do every day,

Starting point is 00:43:49 relationships I'm in, people that I'm with, the way I spend my time, if I don't question that, I'm just kind of coasting through life. I think I was before. I think I was just, I didn't question things. It was just, well, this is my life. It's pretty good. I had a decent marriage. I had two beautiful daughters.

Starting point is 00:44:14 We weren't rich. We weren't poor. We were just in the middle. And yeah, I just, I didn't question anything. but I do now, and I think whatever your life is, question whether it's the best thing for you, question whether it's really you. Because sometimes we can be living a life that isn't ours. We can be living a life that is other people expect us to live. It could be a life that our parents wanted us to live.

Starting point is 00:44:49 It could be a life that our peers expect us to live. And to step outside of that, it's a risk. It's a risk. You risk looking a fool, different, strange, weird. You risk losing people. But nothing is more terrible than losing yourself and losing your life, really. So constantly questioning whether, is this my life? Is this the life I want to live?

Starting point is 00:45:23 It doesn't sound any different than the experience you had pre-49. That's what's so fascinating about this. And by the way, that was my intention was not to discount anything or anyone. And my intention is not to place somebody that's listening to this, like, into this position where I'm challenging their ability to wake up. Like, everything is just fine. You know, whatever you call fine is fine. I just love to say, you know, we were taught that what you see is what you get.

Starting point is 00:45:55 And I believe that is true, but it doesn't necessarily make it what is. So before we close out, tell everybody a little bit. I mean, you've written books and you've got a substack. And what are you excited about? What is the work that you're excited on that obviously will show? but that people can come check out. Two things come to mind. One is my substack because I've taken a different direction.

Starting point is 00:46:21 A couple of months ago, I'd started the substack to write about all my experiences when my marriage broke up. I'd been married for 34 years and it devastated me. So when I came through that, I can write about my experiences and how I did it and how I rebuilt my life, et cetera, et cetera. But then I got to a point a couple of months ago where I thought, do you know what? I'm just rehashing the past, writing about it all the time and how devastating it was and how I grieved and everything. It was keeping me, part of me, in the past. Right. And it's an example of me doing what was right for me. So I thought, well, I still want to

Starting point is 00:47:07 write about my life and experiences, but it's got a different tone now. So now I just write about how to have a peaceful life and how to question, things like that. So it's now changed from being the rebuild compass to being La Forre anterior, which is the inner forest. So yes, so that's a change direction. Actually, it's straight away, I've had a completely different reaction. I've got more engagement. People are loving it, commenting. It's more authentic. And I think it's what people need. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:43 Exactly. It's more me. A really good mentor will sit there and listen and listen, listen. But at some point say, maybe it's time to drop your story. But at the same time, we all have to go through a reckoning of our story and come to understand it to get to this place that you're in right now. Isn't really about rejecting your belief or rejecting beliefs in general. general, it's more about reclaiming authorship over your belief. And I think that's what rang through. So my question after that is, makes sense?

Starting point is 00:48:19 My name is George E. Claire, and this podcast makes sense. That's it for today. To support the Make Sense with Dr. J.C. podcast, be sure to subscribe, like, and share, as well as follow the Make Sense substack for free daily quotes, live streams and blogs. And remember, learning without action is just another form of distraction. If something hit home and you learn something today, give it away. That's the only way it's going to stay. See you next time.

Makes Sense - with Dr. JC Doornick - THEY’RE CONTROLLING YOU - The Cult We’re All In: The Invisible Science of Social Control with Georgia Clare - Episode 139

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