Mantra with Jemma Sbeg - I Am More Than My Job

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

This week's mantra is "I Am More Than My Job." In a society that often equates our worth with our professional titles and achievements, it’s easy to feel defined by our careers. But you are a multi-faceted individual with passions, relationships, and an inner world that extends far beyond your work. In this episode of Mantra, we explore how to detach your self-worth from your professional identity, cultivate a richer sense of purpose, and embrace the many dimensions of who you are. Being more than your job isn't about neglecting your career—it's about recognizing and nurturing all the parts of yourself that make you whole, fulfilled, and truly alive. This Mantra will inspire you to reclaim your identity outside of work, find balance, and celebrate the full spectrum of your being. Mantra is an OpenMind Original Podcast, powered by PAVE Studios. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. For ad-free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to OpenMind+ on Apple Podcasts. Don’t miss out on all things Mantra! Instagram: @mantraopenmind | @OpenMindStudios TikTok: @OpenMind Facebook: @0penmindstudios X: @OpenMindStudios YouTube: @OpenMind_Studios To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is Open Mind. Welcome to a brand new week. Here is your mantra. I am more than my job. I'm Gemma Spake and every Monday I give you a simple but powerful phrase to consider and bring into your life, a philosophy to guide you in the week ahead, hopefully even beyond as well. In each episode you guys know we unpack what our mantra really means, how it's shown up

in my own life and how you can bring it into yours. I also offer weekly journal prompts and a challenge to help you take this mantra and really put it into action. At Open Mind, we value your support. Please make sure to share your thoughts on social media, share this episode, rate the show, review the show, whatever it is that you feel called to do and follow mantra to help others discover us. For more exclusive content,

monthly bonus episodes, early access, and ad-free listening, join our Open Mind Plus community on Apple Podcasts. Each month, I love to respond to your questions and comments on my bonus episodes, so leave a comment on this episode or on Instagram at mantraopenmind and hopefully I can answer them in a future bonus episode as well. Stick around, we'll be right back after this short pause. Okay let's get right into it, it is time to dig into this week's mantra. I am more than my job. Raise your hand nice and high if you need this mantra today.

You can't see it, but I'm raising my hand so high right now. I would literally raise both my hands if I didn't also need to hold onto the microphone because like a lot of us, I think I'm in such a rut with work at the moment. It is really taking up a whole big fat slice of my time and consuming my identity a little bit. I'm working longer hours than I ever thought I would. I am so invested in everything that I'm doing for a living, and I'm feeling like that's taking away from other parts of my life that I should find equal enjoyment from.

So let's talk about it today. But before I give you my perspective, let's just muse for a second on why work seems to always be at the center of our universe and the hidden downsides of that being the case. My friends, you know, it is no secret that work and our identity are intrinsically tied together, even when we try and keep them separate. That even has a historical component to it. Remember, people's last names used to be derived from what they did for work. Carpenter, Smith, Miller, Baker, I could give so many more examples. It used to literally be in our name. Nowadays, obviously, it's a little bit more separate, but the impact and the pool of work

and identity being aligned is still very much there. Let me give you a few facts as to why you're probably feeling this way. Firstly, it's estimated that you and I, this current generation, will spend over 90,000 hours at work in our lifetime. That is nearly a third of our entire lives. And with that much time invested and present in a specific place, location, career, job, it's honestly no wonder that our job titles often feel like a shorthand for who we are. I'm a teacher, I'm a designer, I'm a founder, I'm an accountant.

What does that say about me? What can you interpret about my identity and my personality from this thing that I obviously think is worthwhile enough that I spend hours doing? There's this term in psychology called occupational enmeshment, which basically describes how when we spend hours doing something or hours around someone, our identity can become really fused with that thing. It's kind of like that a-joke saying, you are what you eat.

You are also a reflection in some ways of where you spend your hours. This is then I think reinforced by others around us as well. The first question we often get asked in a new social setting when you're at a barbecue, when you're at a party and you don't know anyone and you're just meeting people for the first time, our go-to status quo question, so what do you do? What do you do for work? In some ways that even starts earlier when we're children, when adults will ask us, what do you want to be when you grow up?

What's your dream job? Work sits at the center of so much of our conversations and how we identify other people. It becomes like a social descriptor, a social currency, a reflection of your values, a way to signal status, purpose, ambition. Have you noticed that we rarely get asked, what do you do for fun?

Where have you traveled recently? What are your hobbies? We don't get asked that when we first meet somebody. And honestly, that would probably be a better reflection of who you are right now. If you went up and asked that question to someone, like you would feel a little bit unnatural, you'd feel a little bit awkward centering that in the conversation. But work on the other hand, it's no different to all those things and yet we feel so much more at ease talking about it.

All these experiences are linked to the buildup or I guess like the creation of something called our occupational identity. So this is basically the sense of self that we don't just develop through work but through the relationships we have because of work, through what we think work says about us as a person. Now, occupational identity is one thing. It's important to really note that this is not the only facet of who we are. We also have relational identity,

we have cultural identity, gender identity, creative identity, physical identity, moral identity, like you get the picture. The problem that many of us are facing though, and myself included in all of that, is that occupational identity, because of all these factors I've already spoken about, tends to suffocate out all those other things. Especially if you feel like you can't fully be yourself at work as well. That's a whole other bucket of fish, right? Occupational identity

basically becomes this foundation upon which the rest of our life seems built around or built upon. This is becoming a problem, I think, because of the fact that, A, concepts like a dream job now exist. So we are all striving to see more of ourselves actually reflected in work. And B, because of the current financial situation, economic situation, we do find ourselves spending more hours attached to work than ever before, because either our jobs really demand it. We really feel like we need to keep a job and we don't have other options because the job market isn't great. And also just because this is the standard that has been set for being ambitious or wanting to get ahead in your career.

Let's firstly talk about the rise of the dream job. The rise of the dream job has quietly convinced so many of us, either in a good way or a bad way, that our work isn't just something that we do, it has to be completely and entirely reflective of who we are. Otherwise, we are bound to be miserable. It is no longer enough for a job to just pay the bills or to just use our skills. Now there's kind of this expectation that it needs to fulfill us, represent us, express our personality, our passion, our purpose, even our identity. And I get this,

you know, you spend a lot of time doing something you want to actually like it. And given how people are working more, having to take multiple jobs, really struggling with money, finding a way to both fulfill your financial or other obligations and also enjoy yourself and not hate your life, seems like a good deal, seems like something that we all want. But in search of the dream job or in search of a job that represents more of our identity, suddenly what we find is that when everything else fades into the background a bit,

when you start to not focus on the other areas of your life, your self-worth only hinges on how you are doing in this job. It is so reflective of who you are that your performance, what people think of you at work, all of these things is where your entire identity kind of sits. And when you're not working, you may feel unproductive, you might feel a little bit lost, you don't really know what to do with yourself

without like the structure and the validation that work provides. We pour so much time, energy, creativity, and emotional investment into our jobs that there's often nothing left or no time left, I guess, for anything else. There's no time for hobbies, there's no time for rest, there's no time for time off, no time for soul searching.

Work becomes the main character. Everything else feels like a supporting role. Now, what happens if that job starts to feel really unfulfilling? work becomes the main character. Everything else feels like a supporting role. Now what happens if that job starts to feel really unfulfilling? And that's the only thing that we care about. Well, we start to then feel completely empty. We kind of realize that in our pursuit of the dream job,

we kind of forgot to build a dream life outside of it. This also really relates to, I think, our society's obsession, not just with the dream job, but being the best, being the most productive, a dream life outside of it. This also really relates to, I think, our society's obsession, not just with the dream job, but being the best, being the most productive, being the most fulfilled person out there. Yes, you may have a job you like, and you may be really satisfied,

but wouldn't you be more satisfied if you were like the very best at that thing, or if you just put in a few more hours to get a promotion one day or like hustled some more. This leads to like an even more impossible cycle of burnout and further distancing ourselves from the life that we build outside of work because we have such a laser focus on what's next, what's ahead of us, what's the next big achievement.

We are so zoned in, we miss the fact that things are kind of dropping off. This is why you may be at a point, maybe now, where you're looking around and realizing like, hey, I don't really have anything beyond this. Like I don't have any hobbies, do I? Like all those creative dreams I had as a kid and when I was in college, like I don't really have them anymore. Things don't feel worthwhile unless they get me ahead. When was the last time I took some time off? When was the last time I really focused on what I want beyond my occupation? The cost of this laser focus on work is that your life beyond work obviously loses a lot of color. Let me tell you this, no matter what you've been sold, you are not meant

to be described by one term, that term being your job title. Humans are meant to have a garden of all the things that interest them and that sustain them and that give them hope and make the world feel special. Work is just meant to be one sliver of that. It really does, I think, benefit us to think about our life as a garden or a beautiful acreage or some kind of visual metaphor. If that acreage was all grass or all one flower, it's not so much fun to look at. But if your garden is full of purple and yellow and bushes and tall trees and roses, it's so much more stunning. That's what you want your life to be, stunning.

Every time you decide to learn a new skill or take a cooking class after work or whatever it is, you plant seeds. Every time you decide to take a week off to be present for an important family event, you tend to that oak tree right in the center of the garden that is family connection. Build up your garden so that different parts of you will always survive and be in bloom and feel important even when work is not. When we really step back and examine the ways that we've attached our identity to work, we begin to see how much of ourselves we've left

unexplored and exposed in a weird way. Detaching from job titles, realizing that you are more than your job, it also doesn't mean that you can't be ambitious. I actually think some of the world's most ambitious successful people know the value of having a multi-hyphenate identity. Anna Wintour, she's an amazing tennis player.

Taylor Swift bakes and directs. Beyonce is a beekeeper. Richard Branson is a kite surfer. They have the secret that I think more of us need to lock into. If you want success, you need other parts of yourself that you can draw on to make that space for a fuller sense of who you are. And even if you don't want success, well, you still need those parts of you to bring enjoyment. Okay, we're going to take a short break, but when we return, I want to give you some more challenges and tips

for expanding your identity beyond what you do and also how this has been showing up in my own life. So stay with us for more of mantra. Why just survive back to school when you can thrive by creating a space that does it all for you, no matter the size. Whether you're taking over your parents' basement or moving to campus, IKEA has hundreds of design ideas and affordable options to complement any budget. After all, you're in your small space era. It's time to own it. Shop now at IKEA.ca.

No frills, delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC optimum points on your first five orders. Shop now at nofrills.ca. Welcome back. Now that we've looked at the meaning behind today's mantra, I am more than my job.

It's time to get personal with you guys, share some of my own insights and reflections about this phrase. Okay, my friends, my lovely listeners, let me tell you a little bit about my personality, or should I say maybe a little bit more about my personality, considering you've probably already gleaned a lot of it from these episodes. I am someone who is very obsessive. I know that about myself. I am someone who can have a bit of a one-track mind. I have been like that since I was a kid. When I needed

to collect stickers, I needed to collect every single possible sticker or every single possible toy. When I needed to be the best in year six or in grade school, I needed to be the best. When I needed to train for athletics, I needed to train the most and I was very obsessive and I would get hooked on these projects and these things. Even as an adult, I see it show up in other ways, you know, the ways that I pursue collecting things or the fact that like when we're on a trip, like I get really obsessed with like one niche part of history or something and I just like have to fixate on it. How that shows up in my career becomes a little bit more complicated because obviously my

career feels more important than a holiday that I took and a place that I stayed in for three days. It feels more important than some little trinket I'm collecting. It feels like the thing that will really kind of define me as much as I try to not let it. My job has always been something that I get really intensely invested in, especially when I'm doing something that I really care about. Obviously, you guys know me, what I do for work is something that I created, right? I created a podcast that was obviously my baby and I built it from the ground up and I started just with me and with no listeners and what was once a hobby then became my job.

Because it was so all-encompassing, nothing kind of replaced it or could replace it in the hobby department. When I first quit my full-time job to do the Psychology of Your 20s full-time, I did have this moment where I looked around maybe like a year in and was like, I have nothing but this thing. I have lost all these parts of me that previously I really tended to. And the result of that was that I felt really boring. I didn't have anything beyond work, I was boring to others. I felt really miserable every time I hit a setback or there was some small failure. It wasn't just a failure to do with work,

it was a failure to do with my entire identity because everything that I did was attached to what I was doing as a career. The other thing was that, yes, of course I found myself more stressed. I also found myself more tired. I found life to be less interesting and kind of came to this realization that I was just this one-dimensional character. And I'd always really, really valued being someone who was multi-dimensional and had lots of things that they were interested in and tried out as many things as possible.

And so I kind of realized something needed to change. There's a difference between being obsessed and being ambitious and really disciplined and caring and having literally nothing else but this thing. And that was like the tension point that I'd realized. So I made it an intentional priority to kind of cultivate and regrow my identity so that I felt like I was more than work. So how I did this was I started with a list of things that I always wanted to try. Things that I was always telling myself like I don't have time for because I'm working and because I'm busy and because I'm building something, but I definitely did have time

for. Some of those things on that list were like boxing, a ceramics class, I really wanted to do a bunch of hikes around Sydney that I just like never had the chance to do. I really wanted to learn some new skills. I really wanted to try bouldering. What else? There was just like a bunch of stuff that I had on this list that I was like, I really want to do this,

and I never had time. So I made it a priority to sign up for as many of those things as I felt I could do and to sign up for like six-week courses, six-week like periods where I could really try something out, see if it worked for me and just have somewhere to go after the day ended that wasn't just like back to my computer. Also, I felt like it was kind of difficult because I work for myself, right? So work is literally always in my personal space. If I can't separate work from my personal space, I can separate myself from my personal space. So that was something that I really attempted to do. I shouldn't just

say attempted. I was very successful at it. Like I got, I really still enjoy ceramics. I still do it once a week. There was all these other hobbies that I ended up picking up along the way that I still do. So I think that that's the first step. I also made sure to do something before bed that wasn't work related. The last thing I check on my phone each day cannot be my emails. It cannot be my Instagram.

It cannot be work group chats. It has to be something else, and preferably something that isn't on my phone as well. I really started making sure that I was reading before bed, that I was coloring before bed, that I was listening to a podcast before bed. Anything that just allowed my mind to grasp onto something other than work as I went to Anything that just allowed my mind to grasp onto something other than work,

as I went to dream and I went to sleep at night and I went to rest up. I also made a pact with my beautiful boyfriend that we have to talk about something other than work when we get home. The first thing that we say to each other when we walk through the door cannot be, how was your day at work? It cannot be a work story. It cannot be, you know, some drama or some stressor. Obviously that's hard sometimes because you really want to be like the

emotional support for your partner. I'm not saying that we don't talk about it. I'm saying that it's just not the first thing we talk about. I also forced myself to be present on holidays. I wasn't searching for new opportunities. I wasn't searching for new jobs. I wasn't allowed to be on my phone or to be answering emails. I'm still not great at this, but to me, as someone who works for themselves, it was very hard to not feel like I had to be constantly on and 100% in everything that I was doing at every single minute. I went on this holiday with my family actually to Bali maybe like two

years ago and I remember my sister being like, oh, you're always on your phone. And I was like, well, I'm working. And she was like, or is that just an excuse? She kind of was like sassy with me, like, you don't actually need to be working. And I was like, dang, like she's 17. She should know more than me about this. I was like, she's right. And so that's a big priority for me as well. And I feel like my family really helps me

stay accountable with that. Here's what I can tell you happened from this experiment. Just four things that I changed in my life, some of them big, some of them small. I found myself actually coming back to who I was. I found myself really having other things to talk about, not wanting to work as much, caring about other things, feeling like my life was just more nourishing, like feeling like my life was just something I could really be proud of and that my self-esteem, my self-worth, everything wasn't just tied to my output. The question that I think really spurred me on was when someone asked me, if your job

disappeared tomorrow, what version of you would still remain? What would your biography read like if someone took all the sections on work out of it? It was a very existential question. It really had me thinking, I don't know if there would be many pages in that book. It was a real slap in the face moment. So I want to ask you to ask yourself this now, and be honest. If your job, career, profession disappeared tomorrow,

what version of you would still remain and would you like that version of you? I also talked about this in an episode the other day. It's called the five-finger rule. If you have five fingers, only one of them can represent work. The four other fingers have to represent something else. They have to represent relationships. They have to represent a passion. They have to represent a goal. They have to represent a dream or a hobby, something else. If you cannot fill up five fingers with things beyond work, that shows you that

you need to have a shift in priorities. Some exercises for you to do this on top of also our weekly challenge, of course, is to firstly get in touch with what it is about your life beyond work that you really value, that you may have forgotten. So ask your friends, ask your family, they know you very, very well. What do you love about me that has nothing to do with work? Sometimes we kind of forget that if we've become too buried in our occupational identity, but the people who love us obviously don't see us in a professional

setting every day. They're better able to stay in touch with what about us really feels like us and feels authentic and unique. It's a very simple question, but I think you'll be very surprised by the answers. Secondly, honor your weekends. Please do this. Have a day every week just for you, just for trying new things, just for having adventures. Have an afternoon even. I know we all say, I don't have time, I don't have time. You are what you make time for. And if you're listening to this mantra and you are struggling with

not being more than your job, you really have to think about what you're prioritizing your time around. Because how can you be more than your job if it's always the number one thing on the list? Put yourself number one, put your weekends number one, put time to explore and discover as number one. Thirdly, set an out of work alert. Maintain those professional boundaries, please.

When you know you don't want to be available for emails, for, I don't know, Microsoft Teams messages, for Zoom calls, make it known in your diary. And if someone has an issue with that, they can talk to you about it. But also, I always say this to people and I know it sounds pessimistic. If you work for a large company, they don't really care about you all that much. The moment they would stop making money and you would no longer be useful,

they are going to let you go because you are an employee. So don't treat this like a romantic relationship or like a friendship or like any other kind of relationship that has some further or deeper meaning attached. Like this is a job, it cannot be your everything. Make sure that you maintain a healthy relationship with not just your work, but with your place of work and a healthy relationship that appreciates the fact that this is

a transaction and that this is a business. Finally, and I talked about this right at the beginning, start asking people questions that don't center on work. The quote, being the change you want to see in the world, this is a really great way to do it. If you want to see in the world. This is like a really great way to do it, right? If you want to see and hear people talk less about their professional identities, be the one to ask them to search for more.

And then they'll start asking you back, hopefully if we can get the whole world doing this, you know, or at least your small social circle, there will be a change and a shift so that your social interactions aren't based on your professional identity, they're based on your personal identity and what you are beyond work. I think this is really powerful. I do this with my friends. It felt awkward to begin with, but now it's actually quite a special tradition.

All right. We have explored a lot of things. We've explored the ways that we define ourselves through work. We've explored why that's the case. We've explored how ways that we define ourselves through work. We've explored why that's the case. We've explored how to move beyond that, what kind of mental mindset, physical, emotional, environmental shifts we need to make. Now, let's get even more intentional. After the break, I'm going to guide you through some journal prompts

and this week's challenge to really help you reconnect with who you are beyond that job title. So stick around, my lovely listeners, for more after this short break. Get to Toronto's main venues like Budweiser Stage and the new Rogers Stadium with Go Transit. Thanks to Go Transit's special online e-ticket fairres, a $10 one-day weekend pass offers unlimited travel on any weekend day or holiday, anywhere along the Go network. And the weekday group passes

offer the same weekday travel flexibility across the network, starting at $30 for two people and up to $60 for a group of five. Buy your online Go pass ahead of the show at gotransit.com slash tickets. Do you want a better relationship with yourself and the people around you? Honey, same. That's why I'm getting better.

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available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. As a reminder, this week's mantra is, I am more than my job. It's a big one. Obviously, you know, we've talked about so much, but one of my favorite parts of these episodes is being able to offer you a bit of a deep thought of the day. What other people have said about this thing and about this topic.

And of course, our deep thought of the day has to come from none other than Dolly Parton, our deep thought of the day has to come from none other than Dolly Parton herself. A celebrity who I genuinely think is so deserving of every single moment of praise that she receives, probably unlike any other celebrity, she is amazing. And she has this famous quote, never get so busy making a living that you forget to make a life. I love this quote.

What it causes me to reflect on is that success isn't just about productivity, titles, financial security, making a living. It is actually about presence. It's about connection. It's about so much more than one thing. A life defined by one or two things, it's not a fulfilling life. There's so much else out there that will make you happy and that will feel successful to you at the end of your life that is not just based on career or the traditional spaces where we see success thriving. I think this quote really calls us to remember that work is just part of life, not the whole thing. It also causes us to reflect on the fact that, yes, you can be ambitious and there are times for deeply investing in your professional identity and in your dreams and in what you

want to achieve. But if the only reason you're doing that is to, you know, one day be able to sit in a rocking chair and read and have nice meals and go to Pilates classes and travel and all those things. Why can't you do that stuff right now? Why are we constantly waiting to be able to reap the rewards of a successful career when we can do it along the way? Life is made in the moments that we have now, not just in what we might achieve in 50 years, be present for your life right now.

It's time for this week's journal practice as well. You guys know I always say this, if journaling isn't your thing, that's totally okay, I get it. You can still kind of let these prompts meet you where you are just by thinking about them, just by musing over them. There's really no right or wrong way to engage,

but this is the questions that I would ask of you to consider this week. First, personally for you, how much of your self-worth is tied to your productivity and your career success? Where do you think that really began? What is the origin of this philosophy for you? Secondly, what parts of yourself have been kind of pushed aside or put on hold in the name of work? Do you think you'll regret that later on? Thirdly, what fears or beliefs kind of come up for you when you imagine stepping away from solely focusing

on work, even just temporarily? And finally, what legacy do you want to leave behind that has nothing to do with your career? What do you want to be written about in that autobiography? And what steps do you need to take to make that possible? Now that we've kind of made that space to reflect, let's just give our mind a quick chance to pause and rest. It's my favorite part of the podcast, I think. In just a moment moment you'll hear a music track. I just really encourage you to take this opportunity to process whatever is coming up

for you right now, wherever you feel your mind going with this mantra. And if this is something that you don't necessarily connect with, that's totally okay. Just skip ahead about 30 seconds. But as you settle in, keep our mantra in mind. I am more than my job. Just let this mantra shape your thoughts. Take the time to connect with whatever it is bringing up for you. Beautiful. I find that whenever I take a few seconds to just breathe, I really notice how much lighter I feel. I really appreciate this time to just reset and to be kind of silent or with my thoughts

before moving forward or busying myself. So I hope that you guys appreciate that space as well. Now that we've had that moment, let's take that energy. Let's bring it into action. It's time for our weekly challenge. The one thing I want you to take out of this episode, the one thing I really want you to do this week is this. Similar to a theme that has been showing up throughout this episode.

I'm going to challenge you to give one job free introduction this week. In a conversation that you have with a friend of a friend, on a dating app, at work, networking, introduce yourself without referencing your job first. See what it feels like to lead with other parts of who you are. It's going to feel unnatural. Like it's going to feel awkward. But with anything, the more time and practice you have in it, you really see how you describe yourself and how you introduce yourself influences how

you perceive yourself as well. I'd love to hear how this challenge is going for you. Please feel free to reach out to me at mantra open mind. You guys also know each month I respond to your questions and comments in our special bonus episode. Those are available exclusively on Open Mind Plus. So if you have questions for me related to this mantra that you want me to answer in one of those bonus episodes, make sure to DM me or leave a comment below. As we wrap up this week's episode, I want to share a few final thoughts about this mantra.

I am more than my job. The final thought I want to share is that I get it. I really get it. I'm in this boat with you. Career success and achievement and being something and making something of yourself, it's very, very alluring. And it's very, very alluring. It's very hard to step away from.

But again, that question I always come back to. If every single page in my autobiography that had to do with my career was taken out, would there be anything left? And if the answer is no, I don't think that that's either a good book or a good life. It's allowed to be part of your story. We're not denying that, but it was never meant to be everything.

So you are allowed to invest in things that might not have any meaningful output for your professional success. You were allowed to be someone who is more than a job title. This week beyond, just let that fact guide how you move, how you rest, what you invest in, and more importantly, how you connect with the parts of you that maybe you've neglected that are just as important as your job. Thank you for joining Mantra, an exclusive Open Mind original powered by Pave Studios. At Open Mind, we value your support.

So share your thoughts on social media and remember to rate, review and follow Mantra to help others discover the show. For ad-free listening and early access to Mantra with me, Gemma Spegg, we invite you to subscribe to Open Mind Plus on Apple Podcasts. I will share another insightful and introspective Mant mantra with you next Monday.

Until then, keep showing up for yourself and your journey. I'm Gemma Speck. See you next week. Mantra is hosted by me, Gemma Speck. It is an open-minded original powered by PAY Studios. This episode was brought to life by the incredible mantra team, Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Stacey Warrincke, Sarah Kemp and Paul Leberskin. Thank you for listening.