Mark Bell's Power Project - EP. 250 - Trevor Kouritzin & Tony Huge

Episode Date: September 18, 2019

Trevor Kouritzin is a chemical engineer who researches dietary supplements in Canada and was one of Andrew Zaragoza's advisors during the SARMageddon Series.. Trevor is also working towards a doctorate in the field of exercise and nutritional sciences. Trevor is a former natural professional bodybuilder and international model as well as the host of his own podcast Evolutionary Radio, and is co-host with Dr. Bill Muhall on the Wellness Naturally Podcast. Trevor also runs a successful YouTube channel, where he publishes content on performance-enhancing drugs, health & fitness. Subscribe to the Podcast on all platforms: ➢https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast Visit our sponsors: ➢Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code "POWERPROJECT" at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $99 ➢Perfect Keto: http://perfectketo.com/powerproject Use Code "POWERPROJECT" at checkout for 15% off your order! ➢SHOP NOW: https://markbellslingshot.com/ Enter Discount code, "POWERPROJECT" at checkout and receive 15% off all Sling Shots FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell ➢ Snapchat: marksmellybell Follow The Power Project Podcast ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MarkBellsPowerProject Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/  Podcast Produced by Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz #PowerProject #SARMageddon #MarkBell

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I love ribeyes. Like ribeyes are my favorite cut of meat. But when I was doing my bodybuilding show, I was eating a lot of flank steaks, um, and a lot of ground beef, a lot of ground beef, a disgusting amount of ground beef. How about you? Uh, for bodybuilding. Yeah. I ate chicken, fish, and a lot of steak. There's actually a lot more red meat, uh, in the diet than, than I expected, which was, which was great. The advantage of a lot more red meat in the diet than, than I expected, which was, which was great. The advantage of the Piedmontese, as you know, is just the fat calories are so much lower. Oh yeah. But when I was looking at some of the, some of the meat that I got from them, I was like, man, I'm like, this thing is so red. There was no fat marbling in it

at all. So I was like, this is going to be like chewing on a sneaker. And I thought I was going to end up like chewing on this thing for the next three hours, but I was totally wrong. It came out very tender and still was extremely flavorful. So I don't know how they're doing it, but they have these, uh, super jacked cows. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think they're from Nebraska. Nebraska's out. Yeah. They're from Nebraska, but yeah, no, those pictures of those cows, they look, uh, they look really muscular. I wonder, do they, do they lift? Yeah, they're from Nebraska. But yeah, no, those pictures of those cows, they look really muscular. I wonder, do they lift? Yeah, but they're not on juice.

So what's your favorite? They're natural cows. So you said your favorite cut is ribeye. For me, I really like filet a lot. Part of the reason why I like the filet is because you never have to cut anything away from it. Sometimes with the ribeye, sometimes there's some stuff that's just not as edible. But I love filet. I also like flank steak.

Obviously, I love ground beef. Their ground beef, I think, is superior to any ground beef out there because a lot of the really lean ground beef just gets to be kind of dry. It's almost like eating, I don't know if you've ever had turkey, like 99% turkey. I know what you're talking about. That's a rough go of it. 99% turkey. I know what you're talking about. That's a rough, that's a rough go of it, but you can take, uh, some of the Piedmontese beef and make your favorite monster mash with it. Like our boy, uh, Stan the Rhino Efforting does throw some, uh, mix in some rice with the ground beef, throw in some bone broth, and you're going to have an awesome meal. But my favorite thing

that they have on the website is the tomahawk because he got that meat handle and it just, it makes you feel like a caveman or barbarian or something and you just you can grab it and just you know gnaw right through it andrew what's your favorite cut of meat over there uh it's definitely a ribeye yeah and where can people find out more about certified pete montese cool our friends at pete montese are hooking you guys up with the crazy deal on all their cuts you can can actually head over to piedmontese.com. That's P-I-E-D-M-O-N-T-E-S-E.com. Enter promo code POWERPROJECT.

That's all one word for 25% off your order, along with free two-day shipping on all orders of $99 and more. Also, don't forget, they have grass-fed and grass-finished beef as well. Check that out. Side effects, but I do have a lot of acid, heartburn, so I... That's actually Tums. Yeah. Okay.

Well, I think it's pretty exciting because it tastes like candy. Yeah, you never know with Tony. You never know with Skins. What gives you acid? Just certain foods that you eat or something? Yeah, I've got a really sensitive stomach it sounds really lame but there so i have so many food sensitivities and i eat so much food the more food i eat the more likely it is that i'm going to eat something i'm sensitive to and

then heartburn i saw you eating all that cereal in that commercial maybe maybe eating cereal is not wise. No. My diet and all, not a thing about my diet is wise. You don't really like to diet that much, right? No. That's why I use the chemistry as a shortcut to make up for the diet. How can SARMs help? You know, we got a SARMs expert here today,

and Andrew has done SARMageddon, and he's gained a lot of weight. Actually, we saw him gain a lot of strength. It's actually pretty remarkable because I had no idea what SARMs did. How can SARMs somebody help? How can it help somebody in terms of like their body composition, in terms of being able to put on more muscle mass and be able to be bigger? Does it work like a steroid?

Well, there's lots of ways to answer that question. Basically, you have your genetics, you have your epigenetics, right? So genetics are given to you at birth and your epigenetics are the expression of your genetics. So certain drugs can influence the genetics on metabolism and things like that. Obviously, with SARMs, the more muscle you have, the higher your metabolism. That's why if you ever look at a huge bodybuilder, they're able to eat like 6,000 calories and stay lean. Certain SARMs, which are sold as SARMs, aren't actually SARMs. Things like carterin, PPR agonist, stenobolic,

another thing that's a REV or B agonist, those influence the genes that have to do with metabolism, fat oxidation. There's so many different pathways that SARMs can help with body composition. So one sense they can help with gaining muscle mass and some of them, as you're pointing out, could help with fat oxidation? Yeah. So what's really interesting about SARMs versus your typical fat burners is that before people using things like T3, clenbuterol, all of those things increase metabolism,

but they don't actually differentiate between muscle or fat. And that's the issue is that when you're taking those catabolic fat burners, things like T3 and clen, then you also have to be on a lot of anabolics to prevent losing muscle. Now, for most bodybuilders, that's not an issue because they're stacking the T3 and clen with test and Tren and Winstrel and Anivar and you name it, right? So them losing muscle is pretty much impossible. And they're also eating a high protein diet.

But someone who's not educated or someone on the internet who is just like, how to lose fat? And they say, oh, Clenbuterol and T3, and they buy it from one of these research chem websites. They're going to lose muscle and fat at the same time. And that's part of the reason why they get such a bad rebound is when they come off of these drugs, they have a slower metabolism because they have less muscle mass. And then also with things like T3, using exogenous thyroid

hormones can suppress your own natural thyroid output. So then you come off this drug, your natural thyroid production is suppressed. You have less muscles. You have less metabolism. You basically just shot yourself in the foot. now you got to spend six to eight months just getting yourself back to where you were and that's the unfortunate thing with bodybuilders i'm sure you've seen this you see these one-hit wonders who look amazing at their show and then you see them two months later and they're this like ballooned up bloated water buffalo and you're like like what happened and like i feel so bad for these people because they're doing everything right. They might have had a couple of cheap meals, but they're being pretty—

And that's actually a really good argument towards people that are on the fence of taking something or not taking something. In my opinion, that's one of the best arguments towards just not getting involved at all. Just don't do it because then you don't have to ever worry about playing this game of being, you know, 20 pounds heavier and 20 pounds lighter and, you know, looking sharp certain times a year versus not. I think you can be a little bit more consistent

when you're a natural athlete. What are some of your thoughts on that? I think that's true, but playing devil's advocate, even something like caffeine is extremely addictive, right? And we all know the people who can't function with a cup of coffee in the morning and and we say that jokingly right like starbucks even sells mugs it's like oh i need my coffee or i can't even get out of bed yeah we talk about it a lot yeah but but to be that dependent on a central nervous stimulant that's not good right and so it there's lots and lots of different things

i think with anything whether you're natural or, you have to really understand what you're putting in your body. And I think that's the biggest problem, and that's why I'm trying to give people education is because a lot of people hire this coach, and their coach says, take X, Y, Z, and they just go, okay. And then another thing with how hiring coaches works is you pay them for a 16-week contest prep. At the show, you take a couple photos together.

It's like, hey, have a nice life. See you later. They don't talk to you about how to get off these drugs, how to taper off them, if you need to do a post-cycle therapy or anything like that. And that's why some guys end up with gyno after their cycles. Women rebound 40 pounds. And then people have a terrible experience that gives bodybuilding a bad reputation because then a lot of people who do these shows are like,

I would never compete again again that was the worst experience of my life mark i want to answer your question by making a broad statement and then of course go in more detail later to just say i love steroids and performance enhancing drugs and so i'm the person who uses these things and explains my experience and perspective and because being an intelligent conservative person and then making this leap into the drug world i want people to understand why and then and then they learn a lot through that so canadian trevor's on the more clinical side academic side he's memorized every study that has ever been done on on sarms he's written most of the content that you'll find on the good content that you'll ever find on the internet about performance enhancing drugs and sarms that's

how i met him and then i'll give you the practical real world experience. So for me, I started using performance enhancing drugs because I didn't want to be high maintenance. So your question was, you know, wouldn't someone be better off if they're natural, they're just able to sort of maintain a better physique than having this roller coaster of being on drugs, looking awesome, and then kind of falling apart afterwards. Well, for me, when I was natural, being that I have genetics of an ectomorph and it's very hard to put on muscle, hard to maintain muscle, I felt like my body was a liability. Like if my diet was perfect, if my training and nutrition was perfect, then I looked awesome. And as soon as it slipped a little bit, I lost all my muscle. And I wanted to turn my body into an asset to

where I didn't have to worry about that all the time, but I could still look awesome. And the drugs allowed me to do that. And it's not just using old school bodybuilding protocol steroids from 1970, like most people do and going through cycles. It's how can I use the chemistry to look awesome every day of the year? So that's why I'm able to maintain about 230 pounds at 5'10", at around 8% body fat every day of the year, which is extremely rare. Even pro bodybuilders who are following old protocols, they don't look like that all year. None of them do.

I mean, there's a few because some people have extreme genetics, but we just can't compare to them because that's an advantage that most of us don't have. I like that Tony said that because I remember back when I was trying to win my natural pro card and winning my natural pro card, everything had to be perfect. Like even if I just cheated on one meal, I could see it the next day in the mirror invisibly. Right. And then like if I missed one meal, my workouts would suffer. I would look depleted.

Like naturally you can do it, but it just takes so much regimen and so much discipline. And now when you get older and especially if you're trying to start a family or you have kids or you have a wife or things like that, it's really, really hard because something always happens. You know, your kid misses the bus and you gotta go pick them up for school or after work you want to train, but your kid has hockey practice. You can't even get to the gym to like 9 p.m and like i know now working on doing my doctorate and things like that you're scheduled for an hour-long meeting but it ends up going three hours and it's not like you can pull out

a tupperware of chicken and rice in the middle of your meeting or you know sometimes i'll be doing blood analysis and the problem with blood analysis it's a bioactive blood analysis, it's a biohazard, right? So you have to finish it. It's not something you can just put in the fridge and walk away. So you'll be doing it and you'll think it'll take an hour and it ends up taking four hours

because someone put something away and you got to find the Eppendorf tubes and everything. You got to spin it right there on the spot, right? Yeah. So when you take the blood, you spin it in a centrifuge and you take out the plasma. Yeah.

Because the problem with blood is you got the red blood cells and the white blood cells and you actually don't want those for take the blood, you spin it in a centrifuge, and you take out the plasma. Because the problem with blood is you've got the red blood cells and the white blood cells, and you actually don't want those for doing the blood analysis. You just want the plasma. So, yeah, it's a process. So first you've got to take out the blood. Then you've got to spin the blood. Then you have the plasma. Then you actually have to do the analysis, right?

So it's not as like, okay, let's do the blood. Let's go have a snack. Let's go to the gym. Then we'll do the rest. You've kind of got to do it all at once. Tony, I think what you said hit the nail on the head pretty good, okay, let's do the blood. Let's go have a snack. Let's go to the gym. Then we'll do the rest. You kind of got to do it all at once. Tony, I think what you said hit the nail on the head pretty good too, because you said you were talking about like wanting to look awesome, right? And that's, and that's your version of, of, of looking awesome, you know, being 230 pounds,

whereas someone else might not want to be as big, you know, and somebody else might have their own version. So maybe their version fits into uh being a natural athlete in accordance to their genetics in accordance to how they're put together and maybe for someone else it doesn't work out that way and they're like you know what i want to be 275 and i want to be jacked and if you want to be you know 275 or you want to be a pro strong man athlete you want to be a pro bodybuilder the likelihood that you'll need steroids is uh be a pro bodybuilder the likelihood that you'll need steroids is uh basically 100 there's really not as far as i know i'm not aware of any you know pro strongman athlete that doesn't use them and i'm not aware of any uh pro bodybuilder that doesn't use them let me ask you guys this um

are SARMs dangerous yes or no anything is dangerous if abused but it would be really hard to as he dips into his as he's dipping into his tums it would be really hard to take enough sarms to do any amount of damage that i mean there's so many more dangerous things in our life that it's by saying but if i say disarms are dangerous that's way out of context because then I've got to say, okay, 90 percent of the things that are – your body is being exposed to are dangerous. So I think driving a car is more dangerous. I use SARMs. I feel like I use them really responsibly. I've been using them for seven years.

I have friends who have been using them for 12 years. Still no long-term issues with any of them but you know you could obviously abuse anything and get injured everything is poison it's the doses that determines whether it's lethal right well oh go ahead well you can kill yourself from drinking too much water too fast so dilute your electrolytes um i personally think sarms are extremely safe um especially something like carter and carter and itin's non-hormonal. It doesn't require post-cycle therapy. There was one clinical trial that showed Carterin causes cancer. And I actually do a five-page write-up in the e-book kind of explaining the clinical trial and everything. So they gave rats a human equivalent dosage of 350

milligrams per day. Now, most humans are using around 10 to 20, at the max, 30 milligrams. So that's 10 times the typical dosage. And they gave the rats the carterin for two years. Now, what people fail to remember is that the lifespan of a Windstar rat is about two to two and a half years. So they basically gave it their entire lifespan, right? So they basically wait until the rats are mature enough, so basically like teenage age, and then give it to them for the rest of their life. So I mean, if you took 10 times the dosage of anything,

Advil, Tylenol, whatever, your entire adolescence, you're probably gonna get some side effects. Maybe not cancer, maybe crazy acid reflux, maybe a stomach ulcer or something, who knows, right? So in my opinion, you really got to look at these clinical studies and you have to also remember that. So when I publish a clinical trial and I want to get it published in a journal, these journals make money by people buying them, right? I get free access to the journals because

the university buys them. But if you wanted to go read the Journal of Sports Medicine or whatever, you'd have to pay $69 or whatever to download the PDF. So it's just like a newspaper. They want to have a catchy headline so people buy the journal, right? So if they say, new SARM Cartering causes cancer and Windstar rats, people are like, wow, I was really interested in this new SARM. There's a lot of applications to prevent diabetes, prevent obesity. This side effect really worries me. Let's buy this journal. But then when you actually read it,

you realize, oh, it was nothing. And newspapers do the same thing, right? It says major terrorist attack averted at the airport, right? And then you find out someone had a Swiss army knife in their pocket and they just forgot to take it out because they were hunting that weekend or whatever, right? So with anything, and I always encourage people to do their own research, don't just read the abstract because the abstract is trying to sell you to actually buy the clinical trial. Actually take some time, read the results, read the discussion, find out what dosage was given, find out how long the dosage was given.

Because, I mean, if you take anything your entire adult life, then you're going to experience a side effect. Let's do this what side effects have you guys heard that SARMs could cause and then we'll address like just off the top of your head what side effect do you think is the big you know some of the uh kind of first ones i've heard about were you know could shift your cholesterol around quite a bit um it could mess up your natural testosterone levels, liver. These are just things I've heard. I don't, you know, I haven't seen any, like, evidence of this or, you know, but just, you know, some people saying, oh, well, why don't you just take steroids?

You know, you just, you know, inject some testosterone. It's, like, more natural, you know. And that these are just some of the things i've heard yeah mainly cholesterol liver um yeah blood profile andrew's getting some like and like after you know his sarmageddon thing like he mentioned some of the stuff in terms of the thickening of his blood his testosterone i don't do much research on sarms but like that's why i was actually also going to ask andrew because he has experience doing a full cycle of it he talked about some of the negatives and the positives and um i think like he was surprised at some of the things that happened and i'm more so curious like when someone's listening to this like a lot of guys have hopped onto sarms because of sarmageddon but But like, like we all mentioned here, they don't know all

of the things to be expecting if something does happen. Like Andrew didn't expect some of the things that happened to him. So I think his input here would be really great. Yeah. And I'm actually, I'm looking for my before and after, uh, lab work, uh, you know, results, but, um, yeah, I think the, the, the biggest like, uh, shock was seeing my test drop pretty my test drop. It went from 545 down to 151. That was a little jarring. But Tony kind of calmed me down. He mentioned that my free testosterone had stayed relatively high. Or not relatively, just it stayed almost normal.

The cholesterol was really concerning for me, mainly because I didn't think about that in advance, but my dad actually does have an issue with cholesterol. I don't know if it could be hereditary, so that was another, like, you know, it was something that made me nervous, right? And then you had mentioned the sex hormone, or what is the… Sex hormone binding globulin. Yeah, that one, and then my hematocrit hormone binding globin. Yeah, that one. And then my hematocrit and hemoglobin were really, really high. Okay, so I'll address testosterone first.

So you have total testosterone and free testosterone. Total testosterone is the total testosterone in your body. It's kind of like a dummy variable. Free testosterone is the actual active testosterone. That's the value that matters the most. So with his total testosterone, remember, testosterone plays a lot of roles. It aromatizes into estrogen, it converts into DHT. Testosterone is kind of like the starting block. Then your body uses it for multiple different things. So for example, with his total testosterone, that might've went

down because SARMs are aromatized into estrogen. So maybe his estrogen went up a little bit. So then he needed less total testosterone because some of that testosterone is going into estrogen so maybe his estrogen went up a little bit so then he needed less total testosterone because some of that testosterone is going into estrogen um with hematocrit anything that increases muscle will increase hematocrit so any like if you just started lifting weights your hematocrit would go up hematocrit is the amount of red blood cells you have and red blood cells deliver oxygen to your body cells right so it's actually not a bad thing um you just would want to be giving blood frequently to be lowering that because the thicker your blood the easier it is actually not a bad thing. You just would want to be giving blood frequently to be lowering that. Because the thicker your blood, the easier it is to get a heart attack. But even if just a natural guy started lifting weights for three months, he gained some muscle, his hematocrit would go up because his body develops more red blood cells to deliver oxygen to all the new muscle cells. But it wouldn't be to the same extent, right?

Like as hematocrit would go up, but it's like it's much different in terms of the extent, correct? So because SARMs would expedite the muscle building process your hematocrit would go up faster yeah because mine went from uh 45.5 to 50.4 so that and that was a 14 week cycle is that a larger jump or um it is a big jump but i mean if you gave blood once it would go back to normal yeah which what if you just uh what if you just discontinued its arms it would go back to normal too but it would taper off right whereas if you gave blood the next day it would be back to normal right and giving blood is really healthy to do anyways it's almost like an internal cleansing it saves lives as well so i think you even get paid in the u.s right yeah yeah they give you

tons of like snacks afterwards i got yeah well i have uh i don't even know what the rarest blood type is i got whatever the weird one is, and they call me nonstop. I'm like, I can only donate so much blood. You have O negative. Yeah, they call me like every other week. It seems like my phone's blowing up. Yeah, O negative is really neat because there's no antibody on it. So if you have type A blood, you have the A antibody.

If you have type B blood, you have the B antibody. So someone with type A can give blood to someone else with type A because it's the same antibody. But if I had type A blood and you had type B blood, it wouldn't work because the antibodies are different. So your body would reject it and attack it. So, Mark, I wrote down the side effects here. I'll give my input on each one really quick. But the first point I want to make is that most of the side effects of SARMs that I've ever seen or can imagine are temporary. But a lot of the benefits are permanent.

I mean you build – you mature your muscle. It becomes permanently more effective, bigger muscle. Let's clear that up just for a second. So what you're saying is that if you take SARMs, let's just say you were to take them for several weeks and you were able to build, let's just say, five pounds of muscle, it's your belief that you'll hold on to that even if you discontinue SARMs? It depends on how far above your natural level you are. The further you get above your natural level, the harder it is to maintain it. But in Andrew's situation, I would bet that he maintains his gains and his strength after the SARM cycle. Number one, because he built it slowly so it had time to mature. It's not like he just blasted a quick steroid cycle and came off and

just got bloated. So I believe that he's going to maintain all his gains as permanent as something can be in the human body, like muscle gain. I think we could consider his new muscle being permanent. Yeah. The side effects are all going to go away and his blood work is going to go back to normal. Yeah. And it's already been, I mean, I lost track of time already, but it's been, I think a month after, um, I'm still weighing over 190 pounds daily. Um, strength wise, I haven't tested it, but I can still, you know, throw two plates on the bench and still rep that out. So as of right now, my strength and my gains, I've been able to maintain everything. I am curious about, Oh, I'm curious about this because I think that, I mean, I can't definitely say, but Andrew, how long have you been lifting, like in total, like really lifting?

I mean, we can go back to like when I first joined a gym, which I was 27 years old. I'm 34 now. Okay. So it's safe to say within the last two or three years is when I actually started making real progress because I started working here. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm more so curious about this because like, I feel like Andrew's going to keep those two because most individuals that start like lifting seriously, right. And their first few years, like a lot of that they're going to keep. And I feel like maybe the SARM sped some of that up for him. But if someone like me were to hop on SARMs and gain a bunch of muscle

i feel like i'd probably lose quite a bit of it if i hopped off because i've already been lifting seriously for quite a big amount of time so i mean i think in andrew's case we could say that because again like i think it would have happened anyway maybe a year from now if he didn't take sarms he would have probably gotten to the same place albeit a little bit slower you think i'm right on that or do you think i'm off you so you're still natty from what i understood last i was just assumed uh people on the spot but all right so he's natty uh if you were to do a first steroid cycle or a first arm cycle you're going to put on 10 pounds of muscle that you're going to hold the rest of your life do it now anything above the 10 pounds is probably going to require you to 10 pounds above your absolute top natural ability is probably going to require you doing cycles or taking something in the future to maintain to be more anabolic.

But the first 10 pounds is going to be permanent muscle you and you would keep it. I think I think a big misconception that people get into is they do a cycle of steroids and they gain 20 pounds and they only keep 10, right? They're like, oh, I only kept half the gains. That other 10 pounds are just water. And because SARMs are aromatized into estrogen, you don't get any water retention. So that's why all the weight you gain, you'll keep. So I mean, muscle is muscle, right? If you gain 10 pounds on a SARM cycle and then you do your due diligence after the cycle,

you keep training hard, you keep eating properly. You're going to keep that weight. The problem is that a lot of people are preparing for a photo shoot or a wedding or something like that, right? So for 12 weeks, they're going beast mode in the gym. They're perfect on their diet. They're taking their SARMs and everything. Then after their wedding, they slack on the gym, they slack on the diet, they come off everything and they only keep half of it. They only kept half of it because now they're only training twice per week. They're eating crap, right? But they're blaming the fact they came off the SARMs.

If you look at any pro bodybuilder who still trains hard when they're off or just on TRT, they look just as big. They don't have that same hardness and that cosmetic look to their muscles because they're off all the androgens, but they're just as big they don't have that same hardness and that cosmetic look to their muscles because they're off all the androgens but they're just as big like we just had lunch with brian shaw yesterday and that guy was massive he was bigger than tony he's bigger than all of us right and and he told us no not uh brian cage the pro wrestler not brian shaw but yes oh they're bigger than me sorry but he said like brian shaw 6'8". But he's in WWE, right? So he's filmed year round and he stays so big.

And Tony was asking him like, how do you stay so big? And he said, when he comes off, he comes off everything, not even TRT. But the reason why is he trains every single day. And he grew up training, like he grew up doing football and everything. So he loves the gym and he loves training. So he would train regardless, right? And that's why he keeps the muscle. It's the training, all of these drugs, all of these supplements, everything we're taking to increase muscle protein synthesis.

What people forget is that the number one stimuli to increase muscle protein synthesis is lifting weights. I'm happy you said that. So happy you said that. Right. Everything else is just supplementing that. Right. And that's what, you know, SARMsMs or performance enhancing drugs that's what they're doing is it's amplifying your results but you still need to lift weights you still need to eat right like how enzymes work is they catalyze reactions they don't cause reactions so they speed up the process but they don't actually cause the process so it's kind of like one plus one equals three you still have to put the pieces of the puzzle together okay some people are kind of getting like amped up results too, right? Because they take SARMs or they take steroids and they get on this very specific plan. They're like, I'm going to take

this and I'm going to do that. And they actually kind of follow through with it for a while and they do 12 weeks of it. And then, you know, steroids, SARMs, they don't help you get to the gym on time. You know, there's not a pill for that. ThereMs, they don't help you get to the gym on time. You know, there's not a pill for that. There's not a pill to help you make better decisions with your nutrition. There's not a pill that is going to have you all of a sudden flip a switch in your brain that you're going to be more motivated all the time. Although we do know that testosterone, having a little bit elevated testosterone can give you a little extra kick that way. But in general, there's not a thing that you can just switch on.

So I think sometimes when you hear someone say, I gained 35 pounds, you know, when I did a cycle. And it's like, well, that's because you put all your effort. You worked really hard during that time. And if you just had a placebo, you might have gained about 10 pounds anyway because you're working your ass off. And you were eating and you were really following through on every aspect of your training and recovery yeah i jumped around on uh on sarmageddon all the time just like i can't wait till i get to the end of this and then tony's like hey i just gave you sugar pills the whole time i was like oh that'd be sick but of course i know right let me let me use myself an example so i recently recently made the decision that textbook knowledge is great.

I mean, like I love academia. I love research. But nothing can replace real-world experience, right? So to make myself a better author, to make myself a better coach and all those things, I'm going to perform some experiments on myself. So I actually just started some injectables to arms yesterday. And I stepped on the scale this morning. I've gained 15 pounds.

15 pounds. 15 pounds. But you have to remember, I have a lot of muscle memory stored up. Injectable SARMs are crazy. And I started eating more. Because for me, I actually feel really good intermittent fasting, eating maybe like one or two meals per day. Like, I've never been a big eater. And when I eat, it just slows me down.

So like when I was at the university, I'd literally just be, you know, intermittent meals per day. I've never been a big eater, and when I eat, it just slows me down. So when I was at the university, I'd literally just be intermittent fasting all day. It wasn't because I was trying to lose weight. There's no fat on me to lose. It was literally just, I just felt better. I was so much more productive

not having to eat lunch. It was just like, go, go, go, go. So now that I just took two days eating properly, and then when you eat properly, you can train harder. I was squatting two plates again,

which I haven't done for a while. I put on 15 pounds. It doesn't sound a lot to you guys, but he's got a runner's body. His legs are small, lean, endurance athletes. He's tall. For that range of motion, two plates is a lot. I'm sorry, but did you say you

injected it yesterday or the day before? Yesterday. You gained 15 pounds in a day well okay so we did the entire anabolic matrix there's a lot of different compounds that go into it including growth hormone and insulin which hesitate to say too much because then everybody thinks it's just growth hormone insulin it's really the combination of all these things yeah but can something be like so like you're defying science in a way because you can't make something out of nothing. So like where'd the 15 pounds come from?

That doesn't make any sense. Yeah, how much calories does it actually take to create 15 pounds of mass? Well, you would have to have 15 pounds of food or something in your body or water. Yeah, water too, right? So I'm guessing. So muscle is mostly water.

Yeah. And the difference is whether we're holding the water inside the muscle or outside the muscle, whether it's spilling over and making us soft and holding in our abdomen places that we don't want water retention or whether it's holding water in the muscle. So most of the weight is going to be water, but water inside the muscle that's actually helping with nutrient delivery, stretch muscle fascia and pave the way to create that helping with nutrient delivery, stretch muscle fascia, and pave the way to create that weight becoming permanent muscle. Not permanent muscle yet.

If he stopped today, he would lose a lot of that. But by the end of the week, when we solidify that, he's going to maintain a lot of it. And truthfully, a lot of that's also water, right? Because I've bumped up my carbs significantly. I started taking insulin, which is going to shuttle all those carbs to your muscle. But when you build muscle, you have hypertrophy and you have hyperplasia. So hyperplasia is the creation of new muscle cells and hypertrophy is those muscle cells getting bigger. Now, under normal circumstances, an adult male, hyperplasia doesn't happen. Hyperplasia doesn't

happen, right? But what's interesting is when you use exogenous growth hormone, exogenous YK11, you can actually cause hyperplasia. And then when you stack that with an anabolic like LGD, or if you even want to use steroids or whatever, and then also just lifting weights as an anabolic, you have hyperplasia and hypertrophy. So it's super, super synergistic. So that's what the growth hormone does. Insulin, insulin gets a really bad rap. I'm not really sure why, but the human- I think that maybe people just think it's dangerous, right? There's a million diabetics self-administrating insulin every day.

Well, the biggest misconception is people think they take it, they're going to become diabetic. That's what most people think. No, like I actually – But it's one of the few things that you can actually take and die from. I mean if you don't do it the right way. So that's probably – that's probably people's hang-up is the death part. I mean no one using insulin responsibly has died from it.

I mean, to actually go into like a coma from insulin usage, you'd have to be using like 100 IUs. Like the only time I've ever heard of situations like that, it was someone like not knowing how to do the calculation and thinking like or something like that. Yeah, but that's pretty extreme to die because you don't know, you know, because you thought you did the right calculation.

But even then, like... That's not a good way to go. I think Dallas McCarver may have died from it. I don't know. Dallas McCarver. Did you read the Dallas McCarver autopsy? I don't know. I don't know everything about how he died.

That guy, he had three different types of cancer. Like, that guy was a ticking time bomb. It wasn't the insulin that killed him. If he didn't die from that. He died because he had a blood sugar coma and he had a heart attack at the same time. But if you were just to hit somebody with a shot of insulin and they didn't get to carbohydrates, they could be in a lot of trouble, right? It's not like you have this five-second window, right? If you're going hypoglycemic, you realistically have about an hour to get some carbs in your body. Or what happens? You would go into a coma. And that like, there's people's

hangup right there. A trainer I worked with in the past. That's why it has a bad reputation. Yeah. A trainer I worked with in the past. People don't like comas. His name's Paul, but I'm not going to name the other guy because if I do name the other guy, a lot of people that listen to this would know who he is. He had to rush to this guy's house because he was on the floor foaming from the mouth and the wife didn't know what to do because he just had some insulin and Paul had to get him some carbohydrates because he couldn't do anything about it at that moment. So I'm not like, again, I know like, like if you know what to do with insulin, of course it's yeah, you're fine. But like, I think most people probably don't. And that's like what Mark is saying,

why a lot of people are scared of it, including myself. This is my hypothesis is that the human body is not designed to be eating over 300 grams of carbohydrates per day. If you think about prehistoric humans, we were scavengers, right? We might have been scavenging, lucked out, found a berry bush, you know, ate berries until we were sick. But we probably want to find a berry bush again for a couple of days. we probably want to find a berry bush again for a couple of days. The pancreas was never designed to be producing insulin multiple times per day. And the amount of insulin required to be eating two cups of rice three or four times per day, type two diabetes happens because your insulin,

your pancreas burns out. It basically can't produce insulin anymore. Now, most fat people that happens because they're eating sugar and all these terrible things, which is constantly spiking their, their blood glucose. Now,

a lot of bodybuilders are becoming type two diabetic as well. It's the same issues because they're eating carbs so much and so frequently throughout their day, their pancreas just can't keep up. Now, what's interesting about insulin is because it's a peptide hormone,

there's no negative feedback loop, so there's no suppression. So when you take exogenous insulin, it's almost like giving your pancreas a break. It's almost like, hey, you can go on vacation the next couple hours. A lot of anti-aging clinics are now actually prescribing insulin for that reason. And I've worked with a lot of medical doctors who actually really, really like insulin.

You have to be responsible, right? You have to know what you're doing. But for a lot of endurance athletes, you know, guys like myself who have very fast metabolisms, if you're going to have 100 grams of carbs at a meal, if you take a little bit of insulin with that it'll just help your body okay insulin is um insulin and growth hormone i believe are some of the more abused drugs and like track and field right um they're harder to track the thing about peptides is that the detection time is so small um i don't think you can even test for insulin like it's pretty much impossible same with growth hormone like an insulin do you feel that i mean i've heard people say insulin is like kind of the most anabolic like are you in agreement

with that like how do you feel about that i think it's the so people are talking about it more now but i think 10 years ago it was bodybuilding's best kept secret right and now gain a lot of weight just from insulin alone right yes and i think it's still at the best kept secret because people don't know how to use it correctly. So people just take insulin expecting a miracle. And some oftentimes they just, they just get fat or they have a bad experience. So if you know how to use it correctly, it is a miracle. It is the best kept secret, but it's not just using insulin. My understanding too is like there's, it gets kind of complicated from my understanding of it. And I, you know, I'm not a chemist, so it gets really complicated for someone like me. But I think there's, there's different types of insulin that you can take, right? And then in addition to that, from what I've heard, some bodybuilders will take like a shot of insulin before they do their cardio in the morning. By the time they get done with their cardio, it's perfect marriage of like their insulin levels being at the right level level and then they'll eat their morning breakfast, get their carbs. I don't know how that, I don't know if that's how it works, but these are the things I've heard.

So there's, there's two types of insulin. You have your fast action insulin, your basal insulins. So a type one diabetic would take a basal insulin. That's a 24 hour, 24 hour acting insulin. So that'd be something like Lantus. That's very, very still acting. And that would just make sure that all the blood sugar in your bloodstream is going into the muscles and then you have your fast acting insulin that'd be like your humalog that'd be something you take pre or post workout um i don't think insulin is this magic wand or anything what insulin really does is it helps you eat more food um and so that that so that's why insulin kind of gets this there's so much misinformation about is that a lot of fat guys will take insulin and they'll just get fat.

Well, your problem was eating more food, so you should have never been using insulin in the first place. But someone like an endurance athlete, someone like an MMA fighter or a boxer, someone who's training five or six hours per day, their limiting factor is the amount of food they can eat, right? Especially if they're training in the morning and training in the evening, they have a very short period of time to re-glycogenate. So that's what insulin really does. It helps expedite that process. So when you're on a bunch of anabolics, let's say you're on steroids or SARMs or whatever, your muscle protein synthesis is through the roof, right? You can train twice per day, but the limiting factor is do you have enough fuel to train twice per day? So what insulin really allows for you to do is it allows you to eat more food so you can train more

you can recover faster and you can just build muscle at a faster rate so in a way maybe it's like extra exercise it allows you to exercise more basically right because it was like because you're recovering from the workouts quicker yeah and then so like the limiting factor would have been like if i just trained it at a hard two hour long leg workout, I'm going to need that rest of the day to refuel my glycogen levels. Right. But with insulin, you can eat so much carbs and insulin helps expedite that process. I could train again in the evening. So we can also use it to build muscle while we're working out. Normally you're destroying your body while you're working out. But if I'm, if I have nutrients in my bloodstream and I'm taking insulin, I'm forcing those nutrients into my muscles while I'm pumping my muscles. There's where the magic is. Yeah. So we're using

insulin on Trevor right now, actually a pretty high dosage jumping right into it. Now we're going to be doing probably 30 units of insulin on Trevor for his transformation week per day. Damn. What does that feel like? Like when you train, do you feel like, I mean, we all, we're all familiar with like getting a pump in the gym. You know, we do some preacher curls and the biceps get pumped up and stuff, but you guys got carbohydrates and you got some insulin going. Like, does it feel significantly different?

Do you, you feel like the incredible Hulk? Like you can just toss a 45 pound plate across the gym. So yesterday he only had five units pre-workout. We did most of the insulin after, because I wanted to see what, how sensitive he was to it. I didn't want him to go hypo in the gym. That's the most likely place you'd go hypo because you're working out,

brings your blood sugar down also. So we're going to increase his dosage. So I don't think he's felt the full effect of being on high insulin while working out with carbs, but it is like your muscles are like sponges. And so the more carb you can be drinking carbohydrate drinks. And as you're working out, it's just soaking up into your muscle and that just the pressure's increasing, the pump is increasing and you're hungry. It's like your digestive system is stimulated to where everything you eat just hit your stomach and boom, hit your bloodstream and boom into your muscles,

speeds that whole process up. You know how intra-workout drinks and intra-workout carbs have got super, super popular and all the bodybuilders are using them? That's why. Yeah, they're promoting it to like, Natty is using intra-workout drinks, so it doesn't do much. But then there, the bodybuilders

are drinking intra-workout drinks, but they're on insulin, so it actually is working. For a Natty, intra-workout carbohydrates make no sense whatsoever. Because by the time your body finishes digesting and utilizing those carbs, the workout's over. You know what I mean? Might as well put in your post-workout shake. But if you're using exogenous insulin, that changes everything. Insulin is a shuttling hormone, right? Like insulin is literally kind of like the messenger man. So what's magic about insulin is that if you take insulin with carbs, with essential amino acids, with creatine or whatever other, you know, compounds you want to take, it'll shuttle

those nutrients into your muscle. Now, when you're working out and you're increasing blood flow to that muscle, it even expedites that process. Um, when typically when you would work out, you would basically break down that muscle and then your body would build it bigger and stronger but when you're giving your body all these nutrients during your workout instead of digging a 10-foot ditch you're maybe digging like a one-foot ditch so to start actually the muscle building process is very very little effort because typically your body would have to repair the damaged muscle and then actually start building new muscle. Is there anything from a natural perspective that someone can take?

I recognize it's not going to mimic insulin necessarily. And especially like once someone's already taken insulin, steroids or SARMs, it's not going to have the near impact. But is there anything someone can take? I know you have a supplement. have the near impact, but is there anything someone can take? I know you have a supplement, like does that, you know, for people that are listening that don't want to make the jump to try and some things that, that they label as being over the top or crazy, or is there some hope for some natural guys that want to just take a supplement, an over-the-counter supplement that can help mimic any of this at all? Yeah. So, so you can visualize better. There's two sides of the equation for insulin.

There's actually taking insulin or your body releasing its own natural insulin, and there's insulin sensitivity, so how much insulin it takes to create a certain effect. Most people's problem is that they've lost their insulin sensitivity. When you're eating a ton of carbohydrates, not only do you burn out your pancreas, but you – your insulin – the more your body is having excrete insulin, the less sensitive you become to it. Your body is not – your body is making it. Your body is still making it, but it's not reacting to it anymore. So if we can fix either side of this equation or both sides, that's where it's optimal. But for the natural, they're not going to inject insulin. So on that side, all we can do is stimulate natural insulin production, which is use certain type of sugars like dextrose or things that are fast acting and cause a release of insulin at optimal times. So it all becomes about nutrient timing and then fix the insulin sensitivity side,

which is take breaks from carbohydrates, use things like metformin or the slin pills. The enhanced athlete slin pills are caused to do two things. They increase your long-term insulin sensitivity so that it's easier to build muscle and burn fat for months even after you take it. And then also while you take it, it causes your muscle cells to uptake more sugar and bring your blood glucose down. So it repairs the short-term insulin sensitivity. So what's in those pills? Okay, there's two different. When it comes to natural or like any of these pills that you take for fixing insulin sensitivity,

there's glucose disposal agents, which gets rid of blood sugar, which simulates doing a keto diet or lowering your carbohydrates because that's one way to increase insulin sensitivity. And also exercise. More exercise increases insulin sensitivity. These walks that the vertical diet promotes definitely stand efforting. It increases insulin sensitivity. And then there's also insulin mimetics. Insulin mimetics would be more effective because you can't really get that from just changing your diet. That acts like insulin, but it's not insulin. So you get the benefits of insulin, which is your muscles become more like a sponge and uptake the nutrients and lower your blood sugar without the drawback of actually introducing more insulin that decreases your sensitivity.

of actually introducing more insulin that decreases your sensitivity. So you get, again, the short-term benefit of uptaking more nutrients, the long-term benefit of becoming more insulin sensitive for the future. And in bodybuilders, like when pro bodybuilders come to me and they've plateaued, usually what I can do to break the plateau very easily is fix their insulin sensitivity or add insulin. So let me explain the terms insulin sensitivity, insulin resistance, because there's so much misinformation about it. And a lot of these companies are using these terms to sell products. So the body wants homeostasis, right? It always wants a certain amount of blood sugar. Now your body will release glucagon and insulin at different times to make sure that blood sugar is basically at the same rate because the body wants homeostasis.

So under normal conditions, when you eat carbs, your blood sugar goes up. And then ideally it would go into the muscle, which would lower your blood glucose. Now, the problem is if you have insulin resistant and your muscles are resistant to that insulin, you have high blood glucose, your body goes, hey, we have extra blood glucose. Let's let's, you know, we got to lower this. Then it goes to the liver and it gets stored as fat because the problem with the liver is it can only store about 50 grams of carbohydrates as a very, very store storage capacity. So it goes to the liver. Once the liver is full, then it starts getting stored as fat. So the better your muscle insulin sensitivity, the more likely those, that those carbs, the blood glucose is going to go into your muscles

and not get stored as fat. And that's where genetics play a big role in this, right? There's, there's people who can eat carbs, like like no tomorrow and they don't gain an ounce of fat, right? You know that guy at the gym who eats 20 Pop-Tarts and he's shredded. And there's other people that eat a bowl of rice. They just look at rice and they get fat. There is a big genetic component to how much muscle insulin sensitivity you have. Unfortunately, genetics play a role in everything. And that's also why slower digesting carbs raise blood glucose slower. So there's less likelihood of those carbs getting stored as fat because if it's getting stored slowly, your muscles then have the chance to uptake it. But if you have this rapid spike of blood sugar, there's so much your muscles can't absorb at all. Then it goes to your liver and then it gets stored as fat. So that's

why things like sugar, fruit juices, high fructose corn syrup, that's why it causes fat storage and also fatty liver syndrome. You know, I'm trying to dramatize insulin. You know, in my videos, I'm injecting insulin and I know it's dangerous. But really, I'm just trying to bring attention to it because it is probably the most underrated component of building muscle and burning fat is insulin and insulin sensitivity like someone could utilize just insulin and get some pretty good results so in other

countries where they can't afford steroids they're part of their bulking protocol is like mass gainer and insulin because it's so cheap and and it works but the problem is if you take insulin by itself usually you're going to put on a pound of fat for every pound of muscle you put on. So it's the anabolics, the growth hormone, and the strategic timing that allows you to use insulin to put on a pound of muscle without putting on any fat. And another important thing is you don't want to be using insulin year round, right? Like insulin is something you'd use for a week, taper off for a week, use for a week, taper off for a week. Because if you're using insulin long term, you're going to blow your muscle insulin sensitivity. And it just doesn't go with insulin,

it also goes with your diet. And that's why I'm such a big advocate of carb cycling or intermittent fasting or however you want to do it. You want to have periods of high insulin and periods of low insulin, right? So intermittent fasting, that's a great way to lower insulin. Or you could do a high carb day, then a lower carb day, that'd be a great way to lower insulin. You know, a lot of the most successful natural pro bodybuilders, they all carb cycle, right? On their leg day, they might eat like 600 grams of carbs. But the next day when they're training arms, they might do zero carbs, right? So they're doing high insulin and low insulin. And that helps keep your muscle insulin sensitivity high. Because that's the biggest problem with our general North American population

is what are people eating all day, every day? Carbs, right? Most people start their day off with bagels, muffins, things like that. Lunch, more carbs. Dinner, more carbs. Before bed, eating chips, cookies, whatever, before bed. Because they're eating all this sugar, their muscle insulin sensitivity is like dead and then they have all this sugar and the body says hey we have all the sugar we got to do something with it so it gets stored as fat so real quick because i can imagine some 19 year old kid that's a hard gainer listening to this right now has a credit card and wants to buy some insulin so what is what are some of the things because someone's going to go try it out and do this, what do they need to pay attention to so they're not using it in an unsafe way?

Because there are many ways to use it in an unsafe manner. What do they need to avoid doing? Even just understanding like an insulin pin to begin with is kind of hard. Okay, so 10 units of insulin is the number 10 on the insulin pin. It's a very, very, very small amount. Like, you're going to withdraw 10 units of insulin, you'll look at the insulin pin, you'll be like, there's barely anything in there.

Tony usually has one of them. I have a vape pen, but not an insulin pen. But with insulin, less is more. You know what I mean? Like, it's really not something you want to abuse. Like for someone who's never used insulin, even five I use will make a big, big difference. And it's not something you want to be using year round.

So like, you know, maybe use it twice per week, use it for a week, stop using it for a week, use it for a week. Yeah. So like. It's a tiny amount. Like you would. Away from me singing.

Make sure you get a picture of him holding the needle and publish it all over the internet use it as your regular pen you need to make these regular pens

that'd be nice and see how your mom is going to be so mad at you going back to is insulin dangerous you don't need a prescription to buy insulin

anyone can go to any pharmacy in America and say hey can I get some insulin and they'll just give it to you over the counter

you need a prescription now for like anything right so so i mean if insulin's that dangerous you would think that they would regulate it with the need for a prescription or a doctor's note or something um i'm actually surprising a prescription for metformin that's something i find surprising but yeah so i do get nervous i know how you guys are you're cautious about this stuff you worry about the listeners trying something that's dangerous for them. And I do too because I feel totally comfortable injecting Trevor with insulin. People come over for transformations.

No problem. They're not going to have any negative effects. But I do worry that someone at home does it and does it wrong and they do get injured. So that's true. It's a valid concern. true it's a valid it's a valid concern uh i i wouldn't if i would not experiment with insulin unless i had someone experienced with me teaching me how to do it i would say i would say this to you like i appreciate uh you guys i appreciate you tony and i've known you a little longer and i appreciate all the research and stuff that you've done because there are people that not even aside from this podcast that are just kind of like

researching it on their own, just testing themselves out. And it's great to have people like you guys that are on the forefront. Some, some, some people listening to this, they may have shut it off already. It might be like, these guys are idiots, man. Why are they doing that to themselves? Why are they injecting themselves? But it's a great lesson for a lot of other people. They can really learn a lot from you guys. You know, Dan Duchesne was kind of, you know, one of the kind of founding fathers of some of this kind of research and, and sticking himself with all kinds of different things. And he put out the underground steroid handbook. And I don't think they had any idea how many of those books would sell, but they realized hundreds of thousands of people are on anabolic steroids and on growth hormone and insulin.

And back in the day, it was all like very secretive. Like no one could get the right information and people were getting infections from injections. People were getting sick. People were dying. I mean, all kinds of crazy things were happening. And so now that we have people that are putting the information out there, because look, people are going to play around with this stuff anyway. So we're not trying to promote anything by no means. Am I saying anyone should mess around with insulin?

I don't think it's, I don't think it's a great idea. I don't think it's a great place to start, right? Like you should start with hard training, start with your nutrition and then, you know, start to explore other things as you go down that road.

But, you know, get yourself a coach, you know, start to explore other things as you go down that road. But, you know, get yourself a coach, you know, make sure you're paying attention and focusing in on the things that matter. You know, the things that are going to matter for right now for most people is like, pay attention to your sleep, pay attention to your food. Like, are you even following through with that? Because as I said earlier, there's not a pill that you're going to take for dedication. There's not a pill that's going to, now some of these things can mask it and you can look a little bigger than the next guy if you're on a bunch of shit and the other guy's not on anything. But for the most part, you're still going to have to get a routine down and still, I mean, you worked really hard during that SARM

cycle. It wasn't like, oh man, I'm not seeing Andrew around the gym in six weeks and you came in and got PRs. It didn't work that way. Yeah, and as funny as it is, you're saying people are on the chat room saying that you guys are crazy and blah, blah, blah. But even during the Sarmageddon series, people were mad that I was working hard. Like, oh, well, of course Sarm's work because you're working hard. It's like, well, what do you think I'm going to do, man? Like, you know, yeah, okay. So if I was working out and I was like benching 185 and that was a level 10, well, now 185 is a level six. So am I going to be like, I'm good.

I got to where I was. I'm going to call it. There's like, no, I'm going to push back to that level 10. But now that level 10 is past 225. So yeah. So what Marcus is getting at essentially is like, okay, the pill didn't get me to the gym, but it motivated the hell out of me to make sure I didn't miss a workout, didn't miss a meal. But kind of tracking back to like the insulin sensitivity and stuff, my insulin levels did jump quite significantly.

That was another thing that happened. Because of MK-677, not because of this arm. Can we talk about MK-677? Because to me that out of everything that's something that i'm still going to continue to take and it seems like it was one of the more detrimental things that happened to me yeah but i i dude it my quality of life goes through the roof i'm in less pain and i can enjoy food and it's not like a chore to eat anymore i've been off it for like i don don't know, like three weeks now.

And like, yeah, I do like food's not exciting anymore. Like it sucks. But the- Did your insulin go up or your insulin growth factor? I can- It's probably insulin growth. Tony was telling me,

he's like, that one makes you hungry. I'm like, I don't need help with that. Yeah, I do. A lot of bodybuilders do though. Surprisingly. I don't understand it because I'm starving all the I do. A lot of bodybuilders do, though. Surprisingly. I don't understand it because I'm starving all the time.

But a lot of bodybuilders' biggest limiting factor is how much they can eat, including Trevor. 100%. You know, he's not a really hungry person, and he's an ectomorph, and we got to get like 10,000 calories a day in him. Does it do anything to your stomach? Because Andrew was saying that he kind of noticed that he just felt better when he was taking it. Did it do anything to your stomach? Because Andrew was saying that he kind of noticed that he just felt better when he was taking it. Did it do anything to your actual gut? Do you guys know? Well, it repairs everything in your body.

Oh, wow. And it also stimulates your digestive system. So you end up, you can process food faster, assimilate food faster. Right. So for bodybuilders who are bulking, a lot of bodybuilders I know whose limiting factor was getting enough calories, MK677 resolved it from single-handedly. What about like a hand growing out of your forehead? Has anybody had anything like that happen?

I don't think you're going to grow anything weird on your body. Extra parts. But you are going to grow. Everything that already exists could grow more. Even your wiener? Yeah. Even your wiener to a very small extent, but definitely it's still. To any extent is an extent.

I mean, no. Extents. Can confirm, still mediocre. It's probably hard for you guys to see, but that's the insulin that I had tested. It went from 3.8 to 10.7 and that was fasting for the same reasons that using growth hormone chronically decreases insulin sensitivity so does mk677 because mk677 is roughly the equivalent it's different for everybody and depends on your diet but it's roughly equivalent to injecting one unit of pharmaceutical growth

hormone like pfizer or nortotin, one unit four times a day. And what happens is when you are chronically using growth hormone, it's chronically elevated, your insulin sensitivity starts going down. But that's why you take breaks. I mean, you said there's such tremendous benefits from it, right? So imagine instead of taking it every day for a month, you took it for two weeks and then you took a week off or you took it for five days and you took two days off. Those little breaks help you reset your insulin sensitivity. Would the slim pills have helped or hurt that? Helped.

Like the lab results? It would have helped it. Got it. So taking more slim pills would have prevented it. Also something that we should point out is that blood work is just a snapshot. And we don't really know. Had Andrew not taken anything, his blood work could look quite different from one day to the next, from a few weeks apart. Even have an identical diet and similar.

I mean, there's so many factors. The time of day and and what you ate the night before and there's a lot i know you're supposed to be fasted and stuff but like there's just a there's a lot of factors um someone my brother uh was uh interviewing for his podcast said that they did you know something like 200 blood tests and like the guy could make his cholesterol skyrocket you know from one to the next and he could you know plummet it down and he could you know manipulate it by just in accordance like what he ate and the different things he did so it's just a snapshot of like where you're at

it's it is important to pay attention to it because like why bother getting it well in the first place so it is a snapshot for that reason, whenever we do a clinical trial and one of the primary outcomes is insulin sensitivity, we actually will have the participants wear a 24-hour glucose and insulin monitor for two weeks on their arm. So basically for two weeks, then we can see what their insulin levels are, what their blood glucose levels are, every five minutes for the entire course of the day for two weeks. Because exactly like you said, with insulin, that level is going up and down every single hour. It depends on what you ate, how much you trained, everything like that. So let's say on your before, if you train legs that day,

your legs is a big muscle group. It's going to soak up a lot of blood glucose. Now, if in your after, that was a rest day, you'd have more glucose in your bloodstream, which would raise your insulin levels. And then I'm also guessing like you're trying to eat more during your transformation, right? So you're probably eating more carbs, obviously with more carbs, insulin levels are going to raise. I'd actually be more interested in seeing your actual faster blood glucose numbers because that would be a better indicator of muscle insulin sensitivity

or muscle insulin resistance. If you ever have fasting blood glucose above 100, that's a sign that your muscle insulin sensitivity is starting to go down. So if it's actually cheap, you can buy a blood glucose monitor for, I think you actually get for free if you buy the strips. Like it's not expensive. It's like 50 bucks. That's something I would advise all bodybuilders to do once per week and make sure you're doing it the same day. Try to make the situations the same. So like if you train legs on Saturday, train legs every Saturday and then do it Sunday morning and just keep an eye on that. Because if you see your fasting blood glucose go above a hundred, then I would follow a keto diet for a week or two or lower your carbs or maybe practice some intermittent fasting or just

something to lower those insulin levels. I don't really hear a lot of bodybuilders utilizing the strategy that you're talking about, but I have heard of a few. So basically by ditching carbohydrates and then reintroducing them, are we making them more effective? Yeah. So it's like anything in the body, your body gets used to it, right? One cup of coffee, if you've never drank coffee before, you're wired. A coffee addict, one cup of coffee, they don't even feel it, right? I don't drink. If I had two shots of vodka, I would be totally hammered, right? An alcoholic, let's try it. I'm here all week. I want to go out. But your body gets used to anything, whether it be food or drugs or supplements or even training, right? Same thing. Somebody who's never trained before, they do three sets on the bench press. They can't even move their arms the next day, right? I do three sets. That's a warm up for me.

So your body is used to anything. I what I would actually do is anyone who's carving up before a bodybuilding show, if they're using insulin and things like that, I would actually be testing their blood glucose because that'd be an indicator of when they're when when they should stop. So what I would do is I would, you know, be eating carbs, taking insulin, an hour later, test your fasting blood glucose. If it's below 100, keep eating, keep eating. And when your fasting blood glucose gets above 100, it's like, okay, glycogen levels are full,

stop the carbs. Maybe then just eat a small amount of carbs just to keep everything topped up. But I think that'd be a really good way to prevent someone from spilling over. I did my, when I won my pro card, it was obviously natural, so I wasn't getting insulin or anything. But if I were to do a bodybuilding show again today, that's how I would carve up. So then you can actually quantify, am I full or am I not?

Wow. What about doing like a protein fast? Is there any reason to, you know, kind of starve your body away from protein for a little bit like maybe you know you've taken over 200 grams for the last several years and uh it would it be a good idea to do like 50 grams a day for a while or not so much for health yes for bodybuilding no because when when you stimulate um mtor that causes growth what's m? We hear about it quite a bit. What's mTOR? So that's basically the mammalian pathway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it basically is how mammals stimulate muscle protein synthesis.

But the problem is when you stimulate muscle protein synthesis, that also stimulates growth in other areas of the body. So that could increase tumors, that could increase whatever, right? So lowering your protein is great for longevity. It's terrible for building muscle.

The populations that live the longest, they eat very little food and they do lots of walking, right? So what's good for bodybuilding is not good for health, unfortunately. Well, it's like anything in life. When you raise your metabolism, you're basically shortening your lifespan because everything's working faster, right? So eating a high protein diet, being overly muscle, you're taking years off your life. As much as I love bodybuilding, that's a sad reality. The populations who live the longest, most of them are living in, you know, small islands in Asia. They're doing lots and lots of walking. They're eating very low calorie diets, very low saturated fats, lots of fish, lots of rice, things like that. Yeah. And once you get to be competitive in anything too, you're, you're probably asking

for a little bit of trouble. Once we start competing in like a bench press or jujitsu or, you know, it can start to be, uh, on, I mean, if, you know, at your level of jujitsu, someone can just tweak your knee or tweak your ankle, right? Well, anything to extreme is going to, is going to cause side effects, right? It's like, that's the reason why professional NBA players, you know, die in their sixties is training that hard, that frequently puts a lot of strain on your heart. And probably just being that big. I mean, they're so tall, right? Being six, nine and six, 10 is just not normal. Yeah. And, and, and being over being overly heavy is hard on the body, whether it's muscle, whether it's fat, it's hard on your joints, it's hard on your heart.

You only get one heart. Yeah. you have to remember your heart needs to pump blood to all of your extremities. So if you're 300 pounds, it doesn't matter if you're 300 pounds of muscle or 300 pounds of fat. If anything, it'd actually be probably easier for your heart if you're 300 pounds of fat because as you know, fat is not as active as a

Not as much blood flow required. Yeah, not as much blood flow required. We talked about it this morning. I was saying like, if you were to draw blood from some, just random amounts of skinny fat people, their, their blood would probably look pretty good. It's,

it's interesting. So I've, I've tested so many of the general population and some people who look super healthy, you test them and their, this, their blood works like, Oh,

this person's going to die tomorrow. Oh God. And then other people who people who, you know, like they're not obese, but you know, they've definitely got some weight to lose, but they eat healthy, they exercise, they have low stress. They're the markers of health. But that's the misconception the fitness industry says is that if you're shredded, you got a six pack, you're healthy. Often that's not the case. A lot of top fitness models are addicted to stimulants. They're addicted to recreational drugs. They're abusing the crap out of their body. A lot of them have eating disorders.

What people don't realize is that binge eating is a major problem in the fitness community. And a lot of them suffer from clinical depression. You'd be amazed at the amount of top pro bodybuilders who are on multiple antidepressant medications. And that's a sad reality is that when you base your entire self-worth on what you see in the mirror, you're never going to be happy. Back when I was competing in bodybuilding competitions, I looked way better with all my shirt on than I do now, but I was completely depressed because you're never happy, right?

I want to gain five more pounds. You gain five more pounds. Oh, I need another two. You know, I want 20 inch arms. You gain 20 inch arms. No, no, no. They don't look good enough. I need 20.5. Now I need another two. You know, I want 20-inch arms. You gain 20-inch arms? No, no, no. They don't look good enough. I need 20.5.

Now I need 21. Like, no matter what you see in the mirror, you'll never be happy. And the comparison to the other guy, you know, the comparison to the other person, that's when it gets really dangerous, too, is when you're like, yeah, you know, it's pretty cool. I benched 315 for two, but that guy benched 365 for two. Well, the funny thing is I remember being like 19 or 20 and looking at like the short Jack guy at the gym and being like, I wish I looked like that guy's a fricking beast.

I wish I was five, five. Yeah, no, seriously though. Like, like I've always been tall and thin. Like that's just my genetics.

Right. And, and that's why I used to model is that I had the perfect dimensions for modeling 30 inch ways, six, two height size, 11 size, 11 shoe size. Like when I got scout perfect dimensions for modeling 30 inch ways, six, two height size, 11 size, 11 shoe size.

Like when I got scouted and they did all my measurements, they're like, Oh my God, like you're like, you're like built for this. Like I'm like, I'm literally built for Victoria's secret runway. I'm not built for a bodybuilding stage.

So I would look at that, you know, short guys squatting five. Tony's picturing you right now in a pair of panties. No, but I would, I look at that short guy. Tony, relax over there, buddy.

You know, when he does his injections, he just drops his pants and walks around with his underwear on ready for his injection. There we go. Yeah, it's easy to visualize. I'm getting excited. But I would look at that short guy and I'd be like, man, I wish I looked like that.

That guy's a freaking Hulk. And the funny thing is he'd look at me and be like, oh, he's so tall. He's got those long limbs. I wish I looked like that, right? So it's like, we're never happy. And if you have blonde hair, you want brown hair. If you have brown hair, you want blonde hair.

Blue eyes, you want brown eyes. Brown eyes, you want blue. Like, I don't know what it is as a society. I'm sure it's because we're constantly comparing ourselves to others. But no matter what cards you're dealt, you're never happy. Yeah.

So as it applies to anything, like money, right? If someone dealt, you're never happy. Yeah. So as it applies to anything like money, right? If someone's, you think you're making money, but you're comparing yourself to someone who's making more money. But that's why I think people of influence, like all of us here, have not a responsibility, but a better thing for us to do is show people how they can get on the same path. If they want to accomplish something that we've accomplished, then we tell them honestly how to get there. And then they've got checkpoints along the way. They don't feel inadequate. They feel like they're making progress towards it. And what would otherwise be a negative of comparing is actually a positive because they're feeling that daily progress. That's why

I think it's so important that we're honest about the chemistry so that people don't have an impossible goal and then realize one day that it's impossible and their dreams get crushed. Instead, if they understand in context what it means to get there, they can decide whether they want to take that path or not. Yeah. When I first started talking about weight loss, I went from three 30 to about two 70 or so. And I was like, well, here's, you know, here's how I made this progress. I talked about the diet, and I talked about the drugs too because I was like, I can't leave this out. And then some people were like, oh, well, it's easy to do with drugs.

I'm like, I only pointed out that there's drugs in there because I use steroids. So I don't want to say that I made this progress and made this transformation this way without telling you the full story. People need to know the whole thing. And here's where I'll really put it in context for people. So Mark is like mostly diet and training. And yes, there's drugs involved in order to make the bodybuilders physique because it's

an unnatural state of the body and you need to manipulate that chemistry. But for you, it really is mostly diet and training. For me, it's mostly drugs. And I'll admit that. And I'm not saying that that's better but by admitting and being honest with that then people can understand the context of where i'm coming from why i experiment and push these things to the limit not that i'm recommending it for them but that way they understand where where the information is

coming from and how and you continue to kind of like add because sometimes you need uh you know one thing counteracts another right like if you take something for as we were mentioning earlier take something for like a long time uh or if you take growth hormone it can affect your insulin sensitivity so then maybe you add insulin and maybe you get rid of the growth hormone for a period maybe you bring something else in right you keep you're constantly like moving things in and moving things out and it sounds chaotic and it sounds crazy um but that's you know that's how some of this works right it's just like the first thing i said in this podcast

right someone will go up to a shredded bodybuilder and be like what drug did you take to get that shredded let's say i took t3 and clen so but he didn't say but i'm also on test i'm also on trend i'm also on windstraw i'm also on growth hormone so that that person because they didn't get the full story they take t3 and cl because they didn't get the full story, they take T3 and Clen. They don't realize you need all these anabolics at the same time to prevent muscle loss. So they take these drugs.

They lose a bunch of weight, half of his muscle. They come off the drugs. Now their metabolism's shot. They rebound. And then they're like, this is all bullshit. They're really upset. So I really think, I wish more people were being honest with what they're taking and it's not i guess i guess like as a pride thing like people feel like oh if i did

it naturally i worked harder or something like that but at the end of the day bodybuilding you should be doing it for yourself it shouldn't be a comparison and no matter what drugs mark takes he's never gonna look like me and no matter what training and diet program I take, I'm never going to look like Tony. So instead of trying to compare ourselves to others, we should be using bodybuilding to try to be the best version of ourselves. You know, we mentioned a little bit about genetics. Something that I'm kind of fascinated about is like the environment that you grow up in. And I guess I don't have a great understanding of a lot of stuff but like epigenetics is my understanding it's like uh kind of how your genetics can slightly change or alter throughout your own lifespan is that correct epigenetics is the expression of your genetics

so you could you could have a genetic that um you could have a genetic that uh it it has a it it signals for a certain trait but if you don't have the correct environment, it might not actually activate ever, right? So you can actually manipulate your epigenetics to do what you want, right? So someone who's genetically heavier set, just because genetically they should be an overweight person, they can manipulate their epigenetics to break that.

Now it's going to take a lot more work. And it might be hard for multiple reasons because the environment that they grow up in could be part of the reason why they might have those genetics in the first place is because maybe many generations of their family has had maybe bad habits, maybe hasn't been as active and so on.

And so then you grow up in an atmosphere where you're eating junk food and you get used to some of those things, right? And then it gets to be harder and harder to kind of overcome. In all the stuff that you've seen, how much genetics are we really fighting versus just like environment? It's a combination of both. And we won't ever really know the answer. It's kind of like the chicken or the egg, which came first. But what you said is so true

is because like myself, for example, I never grew up drinking pop. So I really don't have a desire to drink pop. If I drink it, I don't even really like it. It kind of upsets my stomach. You're talking about soda, everybody. Soda, oh yeah. The Canadian terminology.

I like that. And that's, it's really hard for people, right? Like if you grow up eating Kraft dinner, that's what you're accustomed to. And when I'm working with the university, I'm working with just regular people, right? hard for people right like if you grow up eating craft dinner that's what you're accustomed to and when when i like it when i'm working with the university i'm working with just regular people right and the number one thing i'm trying to teach them is you know healthy diet and with exercise for a lot of them it's just getting active walking you know for a lot of people just walking 30

minutes a day is a huge step up from what they're doing and trying to educate them that you know eat single ingredient foods don't eat things in a box. But just saying something like that to them is so hard for them to wrap their head around because they've been eating craft dinner and microwave dinners their entire life, right? You've gone to the gym multiple days per week, your entire life. If I said, Mark, the next month, I want you to stop going to the gym. You wouldn't even know, like you, you look at me, you look at me like I've got three eyes, right?

You probably wouldn't even listen to me. You might not know where to start, yeah. Right? So let's say you had a... I might break the pattern even because five days later, I might be like, fuck him. Yeah, no, for sure. Let's say I was a surgeon

and I just performed surgery on you. I said, Mark, in order for you to fully recover from the surgery, you can't go to the gym the next month. Chances are two weeks in, you'd probably be like, you know what? I'm feeling pretty good. I'm going to go. Right. And that's the thing is like when I'm working with these people, I have to remember not to get frustrated with them because I'm like, it's not that fucking hard. Like just don't eat this process crap. But because they grew up that and they have all these subconscious cues telling them to eat it, they're used to that.

Like you have to, food is one of the hardest things because if you're addicted to a substance, you can just cut out that substance, right? If I'm addicted to alcohol, pornography, gambling, I can just stop those things, but you need to eat to live. So the hardest thing about food addictions and creating a healthy environment with food is reprogramming those neural pathways.

And that's one of the reasons why bodybuilding causes binge eating and everything like that is because you label these foods as bad, right? And then when you're so restricted with your diet, and then you finally come off that diet, your body is like, I don't know when I'm gonna get this food again, right? This food has been off limits. I was never allowed this food. So then this, oh, fuck it effect goes off. And you're like, well, if I get to eat it now, I don't know when I'm gonna get this food again right this food has been off limits I was never allowed this food so in this oh fuck it effect goes off and you're like well if I get to eat it now I don't know what I'm gonna eat it again so you're like I'm gonna make the most of it I'm gonna have

cookies and chips and pizza and you eat until you're literally sick and then you keep eating some more how did did you ever have any bad habits with food because Tony mentioned that you like you don't you never ate a lot. Um, recently I've, I've suffered from binge eating a little bit, but that was more just cause I wouldn't eat anything throughout the day. And then I would eat one meal before bed and then I'd wake up in the middle of the night hungry. Um, I don't know, like for me, I've never been a big eater. Um, I don't know if that came from the bodybuilding, you know, always trying to be the leanest guy or whatever, but I'll go the whole day without eating. No problem. And that's, that's always been my personality.

Even as like a kid, like I would, I'd want to keep playing. I wouldn't want to eat dinner or anything. Like I'd just always be running around. And it's interesting that I find a lot of bodybuilders are one way or the other. They always want to eat or they never want to eat. There's never to the middle, right? It's always one extreme or the other. Okay. I was just wondering if there's any way that you found that has helped you out or helped the people you work out a lot with those food addictions. Well, my situation is a little bit unique. It's that my girlfriend's a chef, right? So, no, seriously, though, what's great is like when we first started dating, I would be eating tuna and rice cakes.

And she was horrified. She's like, this is what you're eating for dinner? And I was like, tuna, rice cakes, maybe some almonds? I'm like, what are you talking about? There's protein, there's carbs, there's fats, it's healthy. This is amazing. Yeah. And I was like, I even got the flavored rice cakes. This is a treat. Yeah, the chocolate chip

ones. No, those have too many carbs. Caramel. Right? So dating her, she's been really good with still cooking healthy, but getting me to try new foods. And it's actually really made me enjoy food again. Because for so much of my life, it was food is fuel. Don't think about anything else.

And I would eat the same food every single day. So I think it's important to go out and experiment with food. Experiment with different flavors and textures and things like that. And using spices and things like that, it doesn't even add calories to your meal, right? So like, she's a chef, not me, but like adding herbs or adding like lemon juice or all, like that doesn't even add calories to your meal, but it can totally recreate the meal how it tastes, right?

Or even adding like fresh herbs or things like, I always thought that was such a waste of money. I'm like, you spent three bucks on fresh parsley? But it totally changed the way food tastes. And then breaking the Montagni of it all, right? Instead of eating chicken over and over, have some fish or

go have some bison or something exotic. And how many different ways are there to cook chicken? I mean, there's so many different ways, right? It can get so many different flavors out of it. So unhealthy processed foods use a lot of chemicals that are kind of addicting. So you don't really get the satisfaction. You're hungry again right away.

But in his situation now, if she's cooking really healthy foods with herbs and things like that, hopefully he'd be more satisfied and then not binge eat. Now he needs to eat more but not binge eat, right? Not binge eat bad food. So I think the key to that is eating food where you're getting all the nutrients you need so your body is not starving and making you want to eat bad food and not eating all the empty calories and trying to replace it with healthy foods that are more satisfying. I noticed for myself that cravings happen from fatigue. So if I'm not sleeping well, I'm just tired from a certain day. So if I'm not sleeping well, I'm just tired from a certain day. And then I do like fasting, but I do think that people should be a little cautious on how much they fast and how often. Do something that's manageable for you.

I do think that things should be easy enough. I think in this world today, I think everyone's trying to make everything so hard and difficult because that's like a badge of courage that you get to wear around. But make things easy enough to where they're repeatable. You know, so if I can do it day in and day out and do a 12 hour fast, that probably would yield some great results as opposed to, you know, trying, you know, a few 24 hour fast and then going completely crazy and overeating, you know, so something that-hour fasts and then going completely crazy and overeating, you know, so something that you can actually stick to. Especially for athletes, I think doing the 24-hour fasting method is too extreme because you won't be able to get enough calories in that four-hour window.

Or if you do, you're almost making yourself sick. Like I think intermittent fasting is great, but I would only maybe do like a 20 to 4 fast, maybe one day per week. Two or three meals or something like that. Yeah, something like that. but I would only maybe do like a 20 to 4 fast maybe one day per week or two or three meals or something like yeah something like that because with intermittent fasting I think is great to give your digestive system a break just like anything in life you should be giving you should be taking rest but intermittent fasting for athletes doesn't always work because it's so hard

to get enough calories in and then also the whole point of intermittent fasting was to give your digestive system a break. So then if you're forced feeding yourself in that four hours to the point where you have to lay down where you're so full, it's kind of contradicting the whole point of intermittent fasting, right? So what I would do is if someone wants to try intermittent fasting, maybe just skip breakfast, have a late lunch, you know,. Maybe do the 16-8 or something like that. I would only do the 24 method if someone has a severe digestive system issue that they're trying to fix and they're not really active. They're more just focusing on health.

For athletes, I think it's too extreme. Let me ask you this because you guys mentioned this towards the beginning and it kind of piqued my interest. You mentioned that you started because Tony, you've been training for a long time and Trevor, you've been training for a long time before you hopped on to. Now you mentioned that you kind of use it as a shortcut or not, not a shortcut, but as a way to make certain things easier. So what would happen? Like, what are you making easier necessarily because like you mentioned, like your diet isn't where it should be, but why isn't it where it

should be? Like, I feel like, you know, if that was in place, things would be, I mean, you're already immensely like massive and in shape as it is, but how can you do that while not having the diet and stuff in check? Like what else, what else is it making easier for you so if if i wasn't on performance enhancing drugs then i would have a lot more fat and a lot less muscle and uh even if even if i didn't take performance enhancing drugs and my diet and training was perfect i still wouldn't look as good as i i do trevor is his eating that bad or is he exaggerating um he's exaggerating he's exaggerating okay i meant like meant like currently, not like, you know. So with Tony,

he just likes to try different foods. Like while we're grocery shopping, he'll eat a half a box of cookies or things like that. But Tony is very similar to my girlfriend in that she'll eat rich foods, but the portion is controlled. And that's the problem is like

a slice of pizza is not going to kill you. It's eating that whole pizza in one sitting. And when you have a healthy relationship with food, you can eat half a box of cookies and put it back and say, you know what, I'm full. I've had enough. The issue is when you're like, I don't know when I'm going to eat these cookies again.

Let's eat that box and then see what else is in the fridge. Right? So yeah, Tony definitely doesn't follow your typical chicken and rice diet. He definitely leaniates from his diet pretty frequently. But one thing I've noticed is he never eats an excessive amount. Like, he eats a lot because he's a big guy. Don't get me wrong. He eats more than I do.

But he'll eat half a box of cookies. He'll eat, you know, two slices of pizza and then have that enough. Tony, if you eat five times in a day, like, are three of those meals good? Four of those meals good? Or all of them like not great? I probably eat four very healthy meals per day. So it's just like you're eating bad for a bodybuilder. Yeah. So I'm getting all of the nutrients that I need. There's no deficiencies. That's for sure. Yeah, so I'm getting all of the nutrients that I need. There's no deficiencies, that's for sure.

What happens is it's like at night, especially the binge eating. I have a hard time sleeping, and so I wake up a couple times during the night, and I might eat three bowls of cereal, a couple protein bars. So I might eat about 1,500 calories per day of basically garbage in the nighttime, which would be the worst time to eat it. Like I said with Tony, though, I don't think it's necessarily binge eating. I think he just falls into the same problem as I do,

is that we're so busy during the day, we're not getting enough calories. So, I mean, for a guy his size, if he only eats 1,000 to 1,500 calories before going to bed, he's going to wake up in the middle of the night hungry, which is the worst time to eat. Don't get me wrong. He shouldn't be eating then.

But I wouldn't necessarily say it's binge eating. It's not like he's trying to suppress a memory he has or trying to suppress some hidden emotions or anything. He just wasn't feeling his body properly. But you're only enabling his behavior here. There is some hobby eating though. I mean, like I'll go to the buffet and I'll say, all right, I'm going to eat like 2,500 calories in one meal. But I'm going to take a bunch of supplements with it to prevent any of this from storing as fat.

In fact, it's going to all go into my muscles and I'll take pleasure in that and I'll actually plan for that. And if I don't plan for it and I do end up binge eating 2,500 calories or I eat a whole pizza, that does happen. do end up binge eating 2,500 calories or I eat a whole pizza that does happen. So then after the fact, I'll take a bunch of supplements to prevent the, any of that storing as fat. Now a lot, look, cause a lot of guys, again, like hopped on SARMs after Andrew's Sarmageddon and are going to figure out some way to, you know, utilize some of this stuff too. Um, do you guys have an idea of how long someone should like have experience in the gym and maybe with their nutrition before they do this? Because the last thing I would like is like a lifter that's one year in, they're like, oh, I need to do this also so I can start making some gains.

The biggest mistake people make is hopping on their drugs right away. What is going to build muscle and what's going to keep the muscle there is hard training. So if you train naturally, you learn to love to train, right? All of us, we started training naturally. We just love training. I would go to the gym every day, even if I knew I wasn't getting out and out some muscle, just because I love how I feel after. I love, that's my stress release, right? That's the time I turn off my phone and that's my 90 minutes to myself. Then when you add drugs in, training's even better, right? Like when you're training on drugs, you feel like the Hulk, right? Like your pumps are so full. You take your shirt off in the mirror. You look incredible. Now the issue is that if you didn't develop that love for

training before, when you're off the drugs, you're not going to train anymore because it sucks. You don't get the same pumps. You don't feel the same way. You take your shirt off. You don't have that same hardness and crispness to your muscle. So if you learn how to love to train and you learn to train properly first you're still going to train off cycle and the most the most successful bodybuilders i think of guys like ronnie coleman they actually turn pro naturally because if you learn to train you learn to eat you learn how to do everything properly then you add the drugs in it's going to be like pouring gasoline on open fire but if you're adding the if you're using the drugs right away it's going to be like pouring gasoline on open fire. But if you're adding the, if you're using the drugs right away,

you don't even know how to train, you're not going to, it almost be like an amateur cook having a set of thousand dollar knives in the most expensive pots. Like I could have, you know, the most expensive pots, but I don't really know how to,

like I'm not a great cook, so it wouldn't really help me. Having a thousand dollar knife isn't going to do me any benefit than having, you know, like I'm not a great cook, so it wouldn't really help me. Having a $1,000 knife isn't gonna do me any benefit than having, you know, like a decent $50 knife. And what I recommend is, you know, people new to the gym, don't even take supplements, right? Like develop one good habit at a time

is like the first six months, just train. Train and diet, that's all you need. Then if you wanna add in some supplements, yeah, add in some creatine or some aminos or whatever. And then, you know, once you've been training maybe two or three years, then you can consider using performance enhancing drugs if you are in a committed relationship you're married you have kids talk it over with your wife there's no such thing as one cycle everyone who says there does does one cycle

that's that's that's crap it's something you end up doing the rest of your life i think it's very very important to be open with your significant other, having the conversation with them, especially if you're a father or you're a mother, doing your blood work, talking it over with your doctor, making sure you stay healthy. You've got to be educated with this, right? This isn't something you just buy on the internet and start taking. You've really got to do your research and even learn what you are taking. It blows my mind when I get these Instagram messages where someone will be like, I've been taking this drug for two months.

Is this the right dosage? And I'm like, you're asking this after you've been taking it for two months? Or like, I've been taking this drug for three months. What is it? I'm like, no, I'm serious. I get messages like that every single day.

And I'm just like, it's like, yeah, my buddy at the gym was taking it. He said he got good results, so I figured I'd start taking it. And then I'm like, and then a lot of times it's steroids. So I'm like, are you using an aromatase inhibitor? Do you have a post-psychotherapy? They're like, what are those? And I'm like, oh, man, go buy some arimicin. Go ask the guy you bought the steroids from if he has any arimicin or arimidex.

You're going to get gyno. This is really, really serious. And not only that, they're using crazy dosages. They're like, yeah, my buddy told me to take three milliliters per week, so I started taking six. I'm like, that's like three grams. So I'll answer as to what I would have done. This is a great answer, by the way.

This is fun. What I would have done is I would have started taking SARMs at age 16, honestly. Whoa. Yeah. Because I was training since I was 12. I already had training down by 16. Four years of like I was insane about it. Training, diet, everything.

But maybe even if i started at 15 whatever i would have liked to have taken before i finished puberty because i think it would have made more permanent changes adaptations to my body to make it easier to build muscle the rest of my life really a man doesn't finish going through puberty till about the age of 23 i wouldn't take anything that binds the angina receptor before then. It could prevent you from going through puberty properly. Um, I just don't think it's smart for anyone to take anything before the age of 23 that goes for SARM, steroids, pro hormones. So you guys are totally different on this. You guys do not agree on this. I'm, I'm the conservative Canadian.

He's a nice one. Yeah. That's essentially what i was going to say too because people have been reaching out and they are like you know 15 16 years old and i'm just like look man like it's going to suppress your testosterone and you don't even know where your like testosterone is going to get to but you're already going to suppress it by taking stuff just wait but it's that's why like i said it's going to be fun listening to your answer because i knew what you were going to say and i think most people shouldn't do what i do because I am crazy, right? And I'm supposed – I mean, that's my character and that's who I am. As I'm in this other extreme side, it doesn't mean everybody should join me over here.

It's dangerous over here. I'm not taking responsibility for anybody harming themselves. I'm just saying what I would do. And then, you know, if you talk to me more and we had more hours and hours to go through through it i think everybody'd be like aha i get it i understand don't assume that just because i'm saying something that sounds crazy it wasn't extremely well thought out also the people that are like uh talking the way that you guys are mentioning people sending you messages and saying you know hey like i'm 15 i'm you know curious like they're gonna get on them at some point anyway um you know telling them hey like yeah it might be better to wait till you're you know 23 but

even also just pointing them in a direction of like hey like this is a good website to like learn more about it i mean i remember being a kid and the second i started to learn about steroids i'm like i'm taking those awesome. Like, that sounds really cool. I didn't have, I didn't think I was going to take them as a kid. You know, I didn't think I was going to take them like young. So I did wait. I was probably about 25 when I started. But I always kind of had them in the back of my mind.

I was like, yeah, when I kind of like feel like I'm mature with my lifting and feel like I've gotten to a good spot with it, I'm probably going to use some stuff cause I'd love to see, you know, what, what, what I'm, what's possible for me. What am I capable of? So we actually just wrote an ebook on SARMs. It's going to be a collaboration between me and Tony. I finished my section right now. It's 60 pages. Let's go, Tony. It's a, it's all. So my section is all the clinical information, right? It's like what these drugs are, how they work, all the clinical studies. But let's take Austrin, for example.

The problem with Austrin is that the highest dosage used in a clinical study was three milligrams. Now, three milligrams is non-suppressive. But we know through anecdotal evidence that higher dosages, the dosages that recreational users typically use of 25 milligrams is suppressive, right? So you kind of got to take these clinical trials with a bridge of salt, right? Same thing with any steroid clinical trial. They were using testosterone replacement therapy dosages,

right? So something like Anovar, you'll read a clinical trial where they use two milligrams per day and it was not liver toxic. You cannot extrapolate that and then say, well, 50 milligrams per day is safe, right? You can't do that.

It doesn't work like that. So I did, I basically summed up all the clinical research explained in layman's terms, how these drugs work, all the different things. What's really interesting about SARMs is that the KM value is a dissociation value, which is how the affinity for a drug to bind to the antigen receptor. So something like LGD, for example, has a KM value of one. Testosterone in comparison is 40. So LGD will bind to the antigen receptor 40 times more efficiently than testosterone. Now the problem with typical LGD is that the oral bioavailability is not great because it's not methylated. Now that's a positive in the fact it's not methylated, it's not liver toxic, but it's a negative in the fact that I'd say the oral bioavailability is maybe five to 10%. Now, one thing me and Tony have recently started experimenting and one thing we use in the Generation I of Transformation is injectable

SARMs. And I truly believe injectable SARMs are going to revolutionize bodybuilding. Because if you have a drug that binds the androgen receptor 40 times more efficiently than testosterone, and you have 100 100 bioavailability just think about that like that is really really powerful so injectable SARMs are very very exciting there's even question of some SARMs are even bioavailable orally at all stenobolic for example SR9009 all the clinical trials were using injectable stenobolic the doctor who formulated stenobolic actually was like why are people taking oral stenobolic. The doctor who formulated stenobolic actually was like, why are people taking oral stenobolic? Like it doesn't work. Now I think it is orally

bioavailability, but very poor, maybe one to 5%. So a lot of these compounds, you really need to inject them to get proper absorption. The only difference, the only exception would be YK11 and S23 because those ones are methylated. Now with them being methylated, they're liver toxic. So you would only be, we'd only want to be using those in short duration. And this book is purely on SARMs, right? Completely SARMs. Okay. Now are you, like you said that you started doing some stuff, aren't you doing other stuff other than SARMs also?

SARMs, GH and insulin. Okay. So like, why? So what we're trying to do with my transformation is show how powerful SARMs are and what you can do. And what we do with the other transformations is to show how powerful these drugs are used in combination with other drugs. Like we have, we have had people put on over 30 pounds of muscle in 30 days and we have the DEXA scans to prove it. The exact protocols are listed in the ebook. to prove it. The exact protocols are listed in the ebook. And what I don't really get is that I see a lot of people say like SARMs or steroids, right? It's kind of like one or the other when they work synergistically. And what I, what I think is that, you know, GH, insulin supplements, SARMs, steroids, these are all kinds of tools in your tool belt, right? So someone who just wants to look good with their shirt off, maybe have a six pack, has no desire to be a bodybuilder. All you need to do is maybe take some SARMs, maybe some over-the-counter supplements. Very, very simple. Someone who wants to be the next Ronnie Coleman. Okay, well, then it's gonna take a lot more pharmacology. pick the tools you want to use, but realize certain tools have higher side effects, right?

So in these advanced transformations where we're stacking steroids and growth hormone insulin and SARMs, it was only 30 days. So you're not gonna get that many side effects in 30 days, but realize doing this long-term, it can be detrimental to your health, right? So, so that's why in the ebook, we have beginner cycle layouts, intermediate and advanced. And the only reason for the advanced was to show just how powerful these drugs are. Because a lot of people think SARMs don't work. SARMs are extremely, extremely powerful. The problem with SARMs is that most of them on the black market are fake. And then most people don't even really know how they work or what they are or how to use them. So I think the heart of your question is, if SARMs are so effective, why not just use SARMs? And why not we just do SARMs transformation?

Why include all of these other things and how powerful is the synergy between them maybe and what more could one expect by combining these things? So when I first decided to start using SARMs, I understood that SARMs were going to activate the antigen receptor the same or even more effectively than steroids, but they're not going to do as much stuff in the rest of the body. And some of that stuff in the rest of the body is side effects, and some is indirect benefits for muscle building. So I knew if I took SARMs to activate the antigen receptor, it could be more effective at that one thing than steroids. But then I'm missing these other categories that are growth pathways, like Trenbolone, for example, most people would

say is one of the more powerful steroids. And it's not because of what it does to the antigen receptor. It's what it does in other parts of the body. So I was thinking, okay, I don't want to do like a shotgun blast Trenbolone where I'm just blasting my entire body with hormones that affects everything. I want to isolate the antigen receptor in the muscle with the SARM. And I want to figure out what other growth pathways are synergistic with it to give me the same effect or better effect than steroids without side effects. And that's where I did growth hormone and insulin, arachidonic acid, it creates inflammation, the slin pills to increase insulin sensitivity dealing with micronutrients to make sure there's no deficiencies

and the experiment was the experiment on my body for the last six, seven years pretty much has been can we replace steroids with SARMs and it actually be more effective by taking advantage of the synergy

between different growth pathways and I proved it on my own body with my own experiments. And then I experiment on other people to see if they have the same experience and we do. So when we do these transformations, we have less side effects than steroids and the muscle building is probably four times faster than a normal steroid cycle. And so we don't need to do it as long. Even if there were side effects, we do a transformation in seven days. We put on as much muscle as someone would put on in six weeks of a steroid cycle and we're off. Our body's back to resting.

Just maintain the gains that we made. And to be brutally honest with your question, we're doing these transformations for Generation Iron, right? These transformations are going to go in a Netflix documentary. We need to do something hardcore, right? SARMs are very mild. I would say if you just ran a SARM cycle, you might gain five pounds in 30 days. That's not sexy. Gaining 30 pounds of muscle in 30 days, that's sexy. So Generation Iron really said to, like, hey, we want to push the limits. Like, what can you accomplish in 30 days? Because let's face it, right? Like, we want to see extremes. When we watch NASCAR, we want to see the fastest cars, right? We don't want to see a car that's slightly faster than your own personal car. So because we were filming with Generation Iron, because this was for a Netflix documentary we we basically had to be as hardcore

as possible there's a you know many different types of steroids but in general like stuff that you inject i know there's faster acting things but in general from what i've seen it takes people three or four weeks to really get the side effects of steroid like or the the effects of steroids to settle in especially when it comes to strength, what you guys are seeing is there's, it seems like, in accordance to what you're saying, that it's just, it's happening in days. Well, exactly.

The problem with most long-lasting steroids, testosterone, anathate, testosterone, siponate, any anathate ester, the half-life's 10.5 days. So as a general rule of thumb, it takes four times a drug's half-life for it to reach full blood hormone concentration level. So four times 10.5, that's six weeks. Now, if you're using drugs with short half-lives, proponate, acetate, those half-lives are 24 hours, and then SARMs all have half-lives of 24 hours or less. S4, for example, has a half-life of four hours.

So these drugs are in and out of your system much quicker. That's why SARMs, you'd want to be taking them every day. Whereas steroids, you can do in your injections once a week or twice a week. When you touched on something, and Mark has mentioned this in the past, why is it that when someone takes the leap and does this, that they're probably going to be on it for life? Because I think that's something big to think about. So why is that? Why can't they just stop at a certain point after they feel they've gotten enough from it? Because anyone using steroids is a type A personality, right? They, they want to be the best, right? And, and muscle is like money. It's addictive, right? So when you start seeing results, you want more of it and you just love the way you feel. You love the way you look. And it's also interesting,

right? So like, let's say for your first cycle, you just use SARMs. You're going to want to try steroids, right? You're going to want to try some other stuff. So I'm sure there are people who have just done one steroid cycle, but just in my experience, anyone who says they've done just one steroid cycle end up doing multiple steroid cycles. Here's the most typical example, because I interview bodybuilders every day, everywhere I go. When a bodybuilder comes off completely, because some do come off, you know, some stay on all the time and some come off. When they come off for the first three weeks or a month, because usually doing a good PCT, or at least they drop down to TRT, they're usually surprised like, hey, I'm maintaining my gains. I maintain my intensity. And then after about a month or so, they start

getting a little bit weaker in the gym. They start feeling less full, less tight, and they start missing it. And then they start losing motivation to work out because they're like, ah, it just doesn't feel like it did before. I'm getting weaker, not stronger. I'm moving backwards. And then they say, OK, I'm going to shorten the amount of time I'm taking a before. I'm getting weaker, not stronger. I'm moving backwards. And then they say, okay, I'm going to shorten the amount of time I'm taking a break and I'm going to get back on faster because I'm just not enjoying it anymore. That's the nature of the addiction. Yeah. I would follow that up and just say that, yeah, the psychological side is definitely there. It's there for me right now. When I was taking Osterine, Tony had mentioned, like, hey, you get an overall well sense of being like your mood is just a little bit better. And it was, and I didn't

really like, I just thought like, dude, I'm getting so jacked. Like I feel great. Like this is awesome. I was more confident. And then when I came off, you're right. There was like two weeks where I'm like, okay, like this is going to be good. But then remember we talked after a podcast one day and me and Simeon, I'm like, dude, I don't know what's going on, man. Like things are unbalanced. Like I just, I don't really feel like myself. And we kind of had thought like, well, it can't be because of the SARMs. Like you're already way past that. But I think it was. And because of that, I'm actually not going to do another cycle until I can get a handle on this. You know, like it's sort of like somebody who has a problem with like binge eating, right? Like they're going to do whatever it takes to get over that

hump so that way they can control it later. So if I do decide to do it again, it's not going to be for a while because I need to, I need to feel this right now and then I need to be able to overcome it so that way I can be like, okay, that's going to happen again. Like, can I handle it? Okay. I can't, then it's not for me. But as of right now, I am feeling better, but there was a period where I'm like, damn, like the sun's not shining as bright anymore. Like, you know, it just didn't feel good. And it's something that, you know, um, and no, like, I'm not saying like this was bad on your part, but like, we didn't talk about that aspect at all. And I don't think not enough people talk about it and I think we should.

So that's why I'm glad we're doing this right now. I also think it comes down to what's your why? Like for me, I'm doing this transformation for the purpose of the book, for the purpose of raising awareness, for the purpose of, you know, experimenting with my own body and truly learning how these drugs work. When I go back to Winnipeg, I'm not going to continue with this just because it's way too much work. I don't like eating this much. No, I feel constantly bloated. When you're eating this much food, people think, oh, you're eating a thousand grams of carbs. That must be great. You're always tired. Like you're always bloated. I mean, after eating breakfast this morning, I had to lay down for half an hour because I was so full. And I just have other priorities in my life right now that take more precedence. Like I want to finish my PhD.

I'm planning on starting a family with my girlfriend. Things like that right now are more important to me and that doesn't mean I won't later on in life come to these things but I feel a lot of people who get into bodybuilding, especially at the competition level, have their own insecurities that they're dealing with and that's why they get so addicted to the sport, right?

It's because they start to develop some self-confidence and they start to feel better about how they look, and it becomes addictive, right? They want more and more and more. Is it harder to come off of steroids from a psychological standpoint than it is SARMs? What do you think, Trevor? I've got to think about that. Harder to come off steroids is SARMs? What do you think, Trevor? I got to think about that.

Harder to come off steroids than SARMs psychologically. From a mental standpoint. Well, some of the SARMs have mental effects too. I mean, like RAD 140, for example, gives you a lot of mental energy and sort of aggression in a good way, but it also could make you have a little short fuse. Actually, to answer your question, so steroids have two overlapping effects, right?

Anabolic and androgenic. That's why they're called anabolic androgenic steroids. So the anabolic effects obviously create muscle. The androgenic is an increase in male sexual characteristics. Testosterone has 100 to 100 anabolic to androgenic ratio. That's why as a boy goes through puberty, he gets bigger and stronger. He also develops facial hair. His voice deepens. He gets stronger, more aggressive. So the androgenic

properties of steroids increase aggression and increase strength, and they give you that alpha feeling. That's why anyone who's used a super androgenic steroid like Tren, they feel like a god, right? Like they're super strong and aggressive and things like that. Now SARMs, strong and aggressive and things like that. Now SARMs, most of them aren't androgenic at all, or if they are androgenic, it's a 10th of testosterone or a hundredth of Trenbolone. So coming off of SARMs would be much easier than coming off of steroids because when you come off of steroids, especially a very androgenic steroid like Trenbolone, you go from feeling like the Incredible Hulk to feeling back to normal, which would be very hard. But with SARMs, you're going to kind of feel the same. Now, obviously there's the subconscious, like you look in the mirror and you might not be as happy or you might not be able to

lift as much. And like, I know for myself, if I squatted 300 pounds for 10 reps last workout, and this workout I did 300 pounds for nine reps, I am mentally destroyed. I feel like a failure. I walk out of that gym feeling like I don't deserve to eat the rest of the day. Like I'm so mad at myself, right? So I think that's more of where it comes from coming off SARMs is that you're not as strong. So you feel like a loser. You feel like you're losing all your gains or whatever. But when you actually look big picture, you look the same.

You know what i mean and like we're our own toughest critics like the joke will be you know like my girlfriend will say like i'm having a bad hair day or something i'll be like your hair looks the exact same as yesterday right or like or like she'll have like a zit on her forehead and i'll be like i didn't even notice until you told me so i hesitated to answer the question because the first thing i think is why come off either in the first place i mean i trying to visualize, like, see it from your perspective. You're going to come off steroids or SARMs. Why not just stay on all the time for the rest of your life? Like I intend to do practically, but, but let me give context to that. I always plan

on being on something anabolic, whether it's testosterone placement therapy or low dose SARMs. And then I do short experiments or short blasts if I want to gain muscle. For example, I wasn't training much up to Olympia. I've pulled my hamstring diets off. My body was not looking that good by my standards for Olympia. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to blast for two days. I'm going to put on eight pounds. I'm going to lose a pound of fat and tighten up in two days. So at 48 hours, that's exactly what I did. And then after 48 hours, it's like, okay, that's enough. I don't want to eat that much. I don't want to take that many shots. And then it's easy to come off that and just go back to my anabolic foundation. But I think, yeah, like Trevor said, it is putting

myself in other people's perspective. If they're going to do short bursts and come off, it's easier with the SARMs because your natural testosterone levels come back much faster. There's just a lot less side effects. Your body doesn't have to rebalance estrogen and all that as much. And the steroids have more of a mental effect. Usually I was giving one SARM that has a mental effect, but most of them don't affect you very much mentally. So you don't have that roller coaster to deal with afterwards. So it's easy to just slide back, slide back.

Yeah. I never, I haven't really had many negative side effects from taking steroids. I mean, other than like my blood profile being different, you know, the blood, blood has thickened, cholesterol has changed. Like some of those things clearly have, have changed. And those have been things that I monitor and I, I, you know, try to, you know, uh, do the best I can with them. Um, but coming off of steroids, I got hit really hard with a lot of side effects, you know? So a lot of people, I think they hear about side effects of like roid rage,

like some of these things. I didn't, I didn't have that. I'm not an aggressive person in that way anyway. Um, but I remember being like frustrated. I remember having some depression and like, I, I've experienced depression in my life like twice, you know, like I'm talking about like literally for like half a day, you know? Um, when I, when I finished the bodybuilding show, it was like an out-of-body experience like the next day. I don't know, maybe just all wiped out from it or whatever. But also in coming off and working on having my second child, Quinn, I felt depressed for a few days. It just felt like different.

I was like, what is this? I'm like, oh, shit, maybe this is what people are talking about when they're talking about depression. Cause I don't normally ever feel any of that. And I think it's, it's important to tell people and support people that it's important that people understand that. And then also, you know, when I, like with, with SARMs, I'm not hearing people say the same thing in terms of like having that meant having that mental letdown. Now, it may be mental in terms of your

strength, like you were saying, but I'm not really hearing people report anything similar. People's natural hormone levels restore much quicker after SARMs than steroids usually, and that affects your state of your mind. I think everyone should be coming off. I see all these young guys hopping on TRT. I think that is such a big mistake. You want to maintain a healthy HPTA function as long as possible. I would only get on TRT if you're in your 40s, you're done having kids. Getting on TRT, even if it's a doctor-prescribed dose, puts you at a severe risk of infertility.

So it's not something I recommend. A young 20-year-old, all these 20-year-olds getting on TRT, I think that's absolutely absurd. I think people should be coming off. I think they should be taking just as much time off as time on to restore normal HPTA functions. Anything in life, you want to be cycling things. Even things like caffeine, you should be cycling because you're going to become dependent on them. Cholesterol, I actually hate cholesterol as a biomarker. Yeah, I know. It's confusing.

Well, the problem with cholesterol is cholesterol is like body weight. You say 200 pounds. 200 pounds for a 6'2 guy like me, that's a healthy body weight. That'd be a perfect BMI. 200 pounds for a small female, that's morbidly obese. Cholesterol is the same way.

So what I care more about cholesterol is your total cholesterol to HDL ratio. If your total cholesterol is high, you might just be a big guy. So you have your HDL and LDL ratio. If your total cholesterol is high, you might just be a big guy. So you have your HDL ratio, you have HDL and LDL. So HDL takes cholesterol and transports it to be excreted out of the body.

LDL transports it to be stored in the body. Now, obviously you want some LDL because cholesterol is very important. Certain hormones like testosterone are cholesterol-based hormones. Cholesterol is the structural membrane of all of our cells. We need cholesterol. People think cholesterol is bad. No, no, no, no.

You'd be dead without cholesterol. Cholesterol is very, very important. Now, obviously too much cholesterol can cause atherosclerosis, which is plaque in the arteries. But if you have high total cholesterol, but you also have high HDL, you've got a lot of cholesterol, but a lot of cholesterol is also being excreted. Everything's good to go, right? A big guy like you is going to have a lot of cholesterol, but if a lot of cholesterol is also being excreted, everything's good to go, right? A big guy like you is gonna have a lot of cholesterol, but if a lot of cholesterol is also getting excreted, perfectly healthy. And that's the problem with these egg studies or whatever is that it showed that their cholesterol went up,

but their HDL also went up. So it's not an issue, right? You got more cholesterol coming in, but more cholesterol coming out, everything's balanced. I don't know why there's so much misinformation about cholesterol. Maybe it's to sell cholesterol medications because statins are the number one prescription prescribed worldwide. I just, I just, it just confuses me because it's really not that complicated. It's just something that people hold on to. They don't know anything else. I think people know

about like, like high blood pressure and they know about like cholesterol but they don't i mean i don't really know you know if you went like one or two questions deep on someone they don't really have they don't really understand have a good understanding of it but it's just like uh it's just in people's heads so like every time i talk about like a carnivore diet people get your cholesterol checked well like i'm like do you get your cholesterol checked on the shit diet that you've been on for the last 10 years? I'm like, fuck you. You know what I mean? Like people are on such dangerous diets.

You're like, holy shit, man. My thesis is actually on cardiovascular health. So one statistic people don't realize is that 90% of people have a heart attack of perfect cholesterol. Because the problem with cholesterol is it actually doesn't quantify how much plaque is in your arteries. So there's two issues is that most people have a lot of plaque in their arteries. That's from poor diet, not exercising. And then also they have very stiff arteries. That's from inflammation. Now it's a double-edged sword

is that you've got plaque in your arteries and then your arteries are very stiff. You've got, you get in a stressful situation. You get in a fight with your girlfriend. Someone cuts you off in traffic. Your blood pressure increases. Your heart rate increases. You got so much blood that's trying to pass

through this narrow pathway. You have a heart attack. Now, the best indicator of cardiovascular health, in my opinion, is dual pulse wave analysis, which actually tests how much plaque is in your arteries. And then another thing is because all of us are so inflamed, our arterial pulse rate, is that what you said? Digital pulse wave analysis. If you Google DPA machine, it'll come up because a lot of us are so inflamed, our arterial elasticity is terrible. And that's why, in my opinion, inflammation is linked to every disease in the body. And inflammation is, you know, that buzzword and people don't really fully understand it. But systemic inflammation is the problem.

Now, localized inflammation, like when you work out, you get a pump, that localized inflammation, that's actually a good thing. The problem is systemic 24 hours inflammation. That's a problem. So inflammation is another one of those terms that people kind of don't really understand because without inflammation, the body can't heal itself, right? That's how the body heals itself. If you ever went to the doctor, you got a corticosteroid shot, that's literally cortisol. That's causing inflammation, which then stimulates

the healing process. But that's one shot of inflammation, right? It's not inflammation 24 hours a day, nonstop. And then what causes inflammation? Poor diets, stress, lack of sleep, lack of exercise, things we all suffer from. So reducing inflammation through fixing your diet, removing processed foods, sleep. sleep is a big one. We have this misconception in North America that sleep is for pussies. One thing in academia is we disagree on everything, right? Some people like hard carbs, some people like low carbs, some people like high fat. The one thing we can all agree on is the importance of sleep. And it's very, very tough. I mean, I've been sleeping maybe three or four hours per week just because we're so busy.

Per week? No, per night, sorry tough. I mean, I've been sleeping maybe three or four hours per week just because we're so busy at the Olympia. No, per night, sorry. I was like, damn. Three or four hours. That's a world record. Three or four hours per night the last week because, I mean, we're at the Olympia and we're doing all these interviews and podcasts and everything,

and then late last night we picked up my girlfriend from the airport, and by the time we got home and everything, we had to be at this podcast for 9 a.m., and life gets busy, right? I remember being 19 in my first year of university. I'm like, I'm so busy. I look back and I was like, oh, that was the dream. Right. So it's, that's just kind of like a side note on, on cholesterol and cardiovascular health. So Mark, earlier you listed what side effects you had heard could be possible from SARMs and cholesterol was one of them. And I just wanted to say why I'm

not concerned about it. My cholesterol has been off for ever since I started taking steroids and SARMs. And I've had an echocardiogram and calcium scoring and everything appears to be fine, cardiovascular function, no heart growth, no plaque buildup. But if we were saying that HDL and LDL and triglycerides and cholesterol were the determining factor on having those symptoms and diseases, then that wouldn't correlate. And it's because when I started researching cardiovascular disease and this stuff, because I made a very calculated decision to start taking these things, having been an attorney before and learned my research skills from my law practice, I found that HDL-LDL was not a good indicator of heart disease also,

just like Canadian Trevor said. And it more had to do with calcium and inflammation and a whole bunch of other things and other potential drugs that people take and food items that people eat that are very dangerous and toxic to the cardiovascular system that are much worse than SARMs that people are eating and doing every day. So I would be more concerned about my diet and lifestyle outside of SARMs before I'd ever be concerned about SARMs causing me cardiovascular disease. What are some things you do or you have done to, I guess, you know, like in accordance to like some of the stuff

that he mentioned, like how are you, I guess, saying, staying like heart healthy? Like, is there anything you do in particular to try to do that? Or do most of your markers indicate that you're fairly healthy? You don't have much to worry about. So I do a lot of things. If you ask me 10 times during the day, I'd give you a whole bunch of different answers because I have to think about what I'm doing throughout the day. So number one, I don't let my blood sugar stay too high chronically. I think that is a major cause of heart disease. Will that cause inflammation as well as cause insulin levels and stuff? causing heart disease. And then whole body inflammation. I try to keep my whole body inflammation down. I try to keep as much inflammation in the muscles as possible. Awesome. Actually necessary for muscle growth. It's one of the categories of the anabolic matrix that we need to use in synergy to build as much muscle as fast as possible and why Canadian Trevor's taking enhanced athlete arachidonic acid or any arachidonic acid works to increase

inflammation in the muscle, but we got to get systemic inflammation down so i do things like to mega dose turmeric and i even take like a benadryl before bed sometimes even though that's a antihistamine histamines cause inflammation the body and some of us are more sensitive to histamines than other i just had a genetic report done actually you asked about epigenetics as well. And it gave me a really detailed analysis. And it was from London Real, Aperon. It was $800 and very thorough. And there's lots of them out there, so I don't know if this is better than any other one.

But one of them circling back to the epigenetics, I actually have the genetics, probably like Canadian Trevor does, of making it very hard to build muscle. And so in talking about the environment i think we've definitely broken out from our i've definitely broken out from what my genetically i'm supposed to be by altering their the environment actually i forgot the point because i got excited about the genetics there's something oh histamines that's what it was inflammation histamines. That's what it was, inflammation histamines. So I have an increased genetic histamine response. So you have to look, I mean, yes, turmeric might work for everybody

or Benadryl might work for everybody to some extent, but you have to look at your genetics and where your health risks are, health risk factors are for your genetics. And so one of mine is overactive histamine response. So I need to be taking antihistamines to reduce inflammation. See, if I just go out and take some anti-inflammatory that someone else takes, like an herb or something, that might not address the underlying issue that's going to be the actual factor in damaging my health. So I'm a little bit different in that.

What can you take? That's what most people's answer is like, hey, I've got this problem. What can I take? Whereas I'm more of what's causing that problem. So the number one thing that causes inflammation are trans fats. These things are the absolute most toxic thing you can put in your body. In nature, fats are formed in a cis transition. Through hydrogenization, we turn those fats into trans fats. The cis formation turns into a transformation. They're not found in nature, so the body doesn't know what to do with it. Those things are the most inflammatory

things you can possibly put in your body. It amazes me that someone will look at a natural fat like butter and say, this is worse for you than some chemical man-made thing. It just makes no sense. Where do we usually see trans fats? Anything that says hydrogenated oil contains trans fats. It's in a lot of processed foods. It's in contains trans fats it's in a lot of processed

foods and peanut butter it's in a lot of granola bars um yeah terrible i know and then another thing what people forget is that a lot of vegetable oils that i'll be using because they're exposing these oils to such high temperatures with frying that oxidizes the oil so you're putting a rancid oil in your body. Vegetable oils, sunflower oil, safflower oil, you'd never want to be consuming those. The best oils to consume would be avocado oil, macadamia oil, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.

The problem is that you go to the grocery store, a bottle of macadamia oil is 10 bucks. You can get a gallon of canola oil for $5, right? You have to remember, fast food companies are a business, right? They want to make money. So they know that the product would taste better, be healthier, all these good things if they used avocado oil or macadamia oil. But instead, they use vegetable oil because it's cheap.

And you just think about it. Olives are naturally oily. Macadamia nuts are naturally oily. Avocados are naturally oily. These are products that it makes sense to derive oils from. Is there any oil in vegetables? No. Like, why are we extracting oil from canola?

It just doesn't really make sense. Why are we extracting protein from it, are there? But so, yeah. Pea protein. The reason why we only started using canola oil is because we were using the canola protein as animal feed. So we had all this extra oil not to do anything with it. And then just to get rid of it, they were selling it for like a dollar per gallon. And then people realize, Hey, this is dirt cheap.

We can use this. We can make more money. Yeah. So you asked what else I do to take care of my heart while taking all this stuff. So there's probably about 30 things. And I, just as we're talking, I just wrote a list of some of them. So I take Viagra to lower my blood pressure into vasodilate healthy for cardiovascular system. Lower it right down into your wiener. Push it to where it matters. I don't need blood up here. I need it down there. That's

right. The exercise, obviously I keep my calcium intake low. I mean, not necessarily from foods, but I don't supplement with calcium because that actually is one of the causes of arterial plaque buildup in combination with the inflammation and the LDL. I take supplement with K2. I keep my blood sugar down. Okay, so my genetic test said I don't process saturated fats well. So I'm going to reduce my saturated fats going forward. I always have but especially now. Trans fats I avoid like Coach Canine Trevor said.

Stimulants. I'm really careful with stimulants and not overstimulating my heart. Most bodybuilders that suffer heart damage in the industry suffer it from stimulants, not from the drug. It's a combination of both. It's water retention on the heart, which I try to minimize as well, especially when we're doing transformations. The water retention on the heart makes the heart work a lot harder. And actually body size in general.

So I actually do keep my body size a little lower sometimes just because I don't want to make my heart work harder. I take Nebivalol, which is a beta blocker, to reduce the stimulation of the heart, because I have an easily triggered adrenaline response, and so my heart, I feel like, gets overstimulated, so I use that to keep my heart from getting unnecessarily overly stimulated or overly stimulated by the stimulants. Like a pharmaceutical?

Yeah, that's a prescription drug, yeah. But it's a prescription here. Doctors don't seem to have a problem prescribing it. They'll try to give you a beta blocker that's a prescription drug, yeah. But it's a prescription here. Doctors don't seem to have a problem prescribing it. They'll try to give you a beta blocker that's more popular because nabivolol is new, but nabivolol is way healthier than all the other beta blockers because it's more heart-specific. It doesn't affect the rest of the body. I experience no side effects from it. Whereas most people take a beta blocker, they get a whole bunch of side effects.

I keep my blood thickness down, right? You see me drain the blood on camera or donate blood. That's really important because the blood has to work. The heart has to work really hard to pump thick blood. I keep my nitric oxide levels higher. Really important to protect the heart. And here's a weird one I still need to research. Coach Trevor, Big Trevor, seems to think that table salt is bad for the

heart but himalaya salt or sea salt uh is good for the heart what's his reasoning he says that there's uh something about it's like razor blades going through your arteries and causing inflammation in the in the walls of the arteries and then i did do a little search on and i found some information on it but not enough to make a conclusion, but it's enough. He's been right about so many weird things I never would have imagined that I just take his word for that until I research to find otherwise. I wouldn't go that extreme, but table salt is artificially made, whereas sea salt is naturally made. So obviously sticking with the most natural made processes is best. It's kind of like the whole trans fat things.

When you artificially, humans are good at screwing stuff up, right? So whenever we're making stuff in a lab, it causes side effects. And a lot of the side effects, we don't even realize for 30 years down the road, right? It's kind of like asbestos was in every single house. And then 40 years later, like,

oh, this stuff causes cancer, right? I'm confident in 20 years, we're going to look back at us putting trans fat in our foods and just be like what were we thinking oh my goodness but that's that's the reality is humans are very very good at screwing things up is there a best sarm for fat burning definitely carterin or injectable stenobolic so so those aren't really sarms right they're research chemicals that people usually think of SARMs. But let's say just like an actual androgen receptor modulator. Think if you have an opinion on it, because I do. Number one is when I increase the dosage on these,

because I take, whereas the normal person might take 10 milligrams, I experiment with 100 milligrams to see what happens in my body. That way I can learn what the compounds really can do and what side effects can come out of it. When I go really high on the dosage, it speeds up my intramuscular metabolism so much that my muscles get depleted and I actually start losing weight, not gaining weight. And that's mostly fat. So it ends up being a fat loss thing. But that's not a healthy, good way to do it.

That's like overdosing on steroids and it burns fat. So any of them do that. So it's, it's not, but, but the SARMs usually, and just like with steroids, they're not meant for fat burning, but if you build more muscle, that's the best way to burn fat because muscle burns fat all day. So it's still an effective way to indirect way to approach it. And then SARMs and steroids maintain muscle while you're cutting. So now you can diet and preserve muscle and just lose fat. So it's, again, indirect fat burning. Is that why you say like a RAD 140 can't actually be used for cutting because you do maintain so much muscle with it? Yeah, but well, RAD 140 is unique in that it doesn't put that much weight on the muscle gets

denser tighter kind of like if in the steroid world a windstraw or a mastrone um because those are steroids we'd use before bodybuilding competition when we're just trying to get that look and rad 140 seems to do that same that same thing so that's because rad 140 is the only sign that has androgenic properties and then if you think of all of your cutting steroids or whatever you want to call it the hardeners are all androgenic properties. And then if you think of all of your cutting steroids or whatever you want to call it, the hardeners are all androgenic steroids. Androgenic is what gives your muscles that hard look. So Mastodon, Halo, those are all very androgenic steroids.

Even Tren's very androgenic, right? That's why you get that like 3D hard look. Cardarin, Stenobolic, and Nutribol. Those are sold as SARMs, but they're not SARMs. I would say those would be the safest ones to start with because they're non-hormonal, so you don't need a PCT or anything like that. Carderine is a PPR agonist. It influences the genes that are involved in metabolism, fat oxidation.

Another PPR agonist is fish oil, right? So, generally, PPR agonists are things that will increase muscle insulin sensitivity, improve cholesterol levels, improve fat oxidation, improve metabolism and things like that. If you actually do before and after using just carterine, not carterine and steroids, your cholesterol levels will improve. Your HDL will go up. Yeah, I was going to ask because I get that question all the time after people saw my blood work. Like, well, can't you just take carterine in conjunction with the SARM? can't you just take Carterine in conjunction with the SARM?

Is that? I would. So actually, a lot of people are using Tren and Tren's the worst steroid on cholesterol levels. If you ever want to scare yourself, get blood work done on Tren. Go like your doctor, literally like, be like, get in here right now or you're going to die. Taking Carterine with Tren

can help prevent some of the side effects. Another thing Carterine is really good at is improving endurance. And then Tren Bol help prevent some of the side effects. Another thing carterin is really good at is improving endurance. And then Trenbolone is terrible at negatively impacting your endurance. So carterin is actually really good to take with steroids to circumvent some of the cholesterol side effects. And then other PPR agonists like fish oil do the same thing. It's just not as powerful as carterin.

Carterin was actually originally developed to prevent type 2 diabetes because it improves muscle insulin sensitivity. So that's why they first started developing it. It was to treat type 2 diabetes and obesity. Some of the early clinical trials on cardarin are very, very interesting. It stopped going into research because of that one clinical trial where the rats got cancer. answer. But after reading that clinical trial, I'm still confused because they use 10 times the recommended dosage, whereas acetaminophen, what's Tylenol? What's the drug name of that? Acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Just two times the recommended dosage of that is known to cause toxicity,

but that's legal to purchase. So like anyone who's interested, sarumsbook.com, that book's going to be coming out i do literally like a four-page write-up explaining like this is the doses the rats took this is how you calculate the human equivalent dosage then like i'll go through the entire thing and then i just lay it out for you so you can do your own interpretation of it but i just don't understand why they would stop the research on a drug after giving 10 times the dosage for their entire lifespan. Why wouldn't they do another study with like, hey, let's maybe give them two times the dosage

for six weeks and see what happens. I don't know. I really think the government is up to something with SARMs. I think like that SARMs pro-hormone bill that they said was going to pass hasn't passed. I think there's some big pharmaceutical companies that are trying to patent SARMs pro-hormone bill that they said was going to pass hasn't passed. I think there's some big pharmaceutical companies that are trying to patent SARMs. I really think there's some stuff under the pipelines that are going to come to light in the next couple of years. Why does SARMs have such weird names like MK blah, blah, blah?

Well, those are actually the chemical names, right? It's kind of like Anovar, Winstral. Those aren't actually the chemical names of the drugs. That's the trademark name got it it's kind it's kind of like tylenol is the brand name of us i don't even know how to pronounce this what about uh sr9009 see that one's really good but the problem with it is that it needs to be injected the so carterin and sr9009 are very very different are very very similar the difference is carterin has a 24-hour half-life, whereas Stenobolic has a four-hour half-life.

So the best would actually be stack both of them because Carterin will give you a 24-hour fat-burning effect. And then if you took Stenobolic right before your workout or right before your cardio, because the half-life is so short, you get maximized fat-burning throughout that. But the problem with the Stenobolic is because the half-life is so short, if you're just using that, you'd have to microdose it throughout the day.

So the best way to do it would be to take Carter in and that'll give you kind of like a slow trickle of fat burning throughout the day. And then you take the stenobolic right before your workout to get that peak fat burning during your workout. So Carter, I mean, it really does seem like it's way too good to be true. Like, are there any known side effects to taking Cartering? Because that's actually the next thing that I do want to take. It's because I've heard that it's non-hormonal. You can take it for a good amount of time and not have any weird, you know, issues of any kind. And it will help your, you know, your blood panel, plus the endurance and all that.

But it does seem like it's way too good to be true. So this is the truth, the truthful answer, is that anything that increases metabolism will increase the likelihood of developing other diseases, right? Because you're just speeding the reaction of enzymatic reactions in the body. So my opinion on all these drugs, and this isn't just cardamom, this is any drug that increases metabolism, is that if you are genetically predisposed to have cancer, you will develop it sooner. These drugs do not

cause cancer, but you will develop that cancer sooner than you would because everything in the body is working faster. And that's not just drugs either. I mean, when you're a big guy with a lot of muscle and your metabolism is working faster, you're going to be at a higher likelihood of developing diseases sooner because everything is just working faster. I'm going to be at a higher likelihood of developing diseases sooner because everything is just working faster. I'm going to give you a overgeneralized hypothesis that if someone were to take carterine for short bursts of time throughout the rest of their life, so cycling on and off, that they will be much healthier than if they didn't take it and have a lot less fat and have a lot more energy. I think the key to carterine is cycling cycling it and there's no PCT required. I mean,

you could technically take it one day and not take it for two days and take it anytime. Like if I want to do a lot of cardio, I'm just going to take it that day. I want to do a lot of cardio and all of a sudden cardio becomes easy and fun. It's not, you know, your body, your body becomes a cardio machine is able to access fat for fuel very easily. And so those rats were given way too much. What is a good dosage? I've experimented with 10 milligrams up to 50 milligrams. And I noticed when I hit 20 milligrams, that's a sweet spot.

I get all the benefits, no side effects, of course. And then when I go 30, 40 milligrams i don't i don't notice much more than when i took 20 milligrams but i definitely notice a difference between 10 and 20 milligrams cool and then short uh bursts you're talking like one week two weeks i so so trevor was talking about using it during a cycle to protect cholesterol levels and also improve cardiovascular performance on certain steroids that reduce cardiovascular performance. Great use for that. But absent, so that's Trenbolone. It basically offsets the side effects of Trenbolone. But absent Trenbolone, I'd prefer not to use it during a steroid cycle. I'd prefer to use it when I'm trying to lose fat. So I'd say like, okay, now I'm trying to

build muscle this month or this day even, because sometimes i switch between a muscle building day and a fat burning day i prefer to take carterine during the whatever window of time that i'm just focused on fat burning or health or fixing my metabolism but not muscle building now uh comparing injectable carterine versus oral carterine is actually very well orally bioavailable. Okay, cool. That's what I was hoping to hear. Carterin is the most popular sign because it's the most versatile, right? If you're trying to burn fat, it works. If you're just trying to be like an athlete, it increases endurance, even on like a bulk, right? Even if your sure goal is building muscle, you don't care about fat, it'll help improve endurance so you can do more reps. A lot of guys are eating a lot of food,

their cardio sucks, so it helps with cardio. It helps improve cholesterol levels. It'll help improve endurance so you can do more reps. A lot of guys are eating a lot of food. Their cardio sucks, so it helps with cardio. It helps improve cholesterol levels. It helps improve muscle insulin sensitivity. If you ask any SARM source, they can never keep cardio in stock. What about combining it with MK-677 then? That'd be a good stack. The MK-677, I would recommend cycling. So maybe do two weeks on, two weeks off. And that, I also recommend the same thing for growth hormone, growth hormone secretagogue peptides. Because the problem with long duration growth hormone is it will increase insulin resistance.

Got it. So unless you're using like a very, very low dosage of a doctor prescribed HGH for hormone replacement therapy, that'd be like one or two I use per day. And that'd be an older man in like his forties or fifties. I always recommend cycling growth hormone and just anything I think is best to cycle. And that goes for coffee over the counter supplements. Like anything in excess is going to cause side effects. Right? So just like if you did the same workout over and over and over, you're probably going to blow out the tendons of those ligaments, right? You need to give anything a break. So I would cycle any drug or any supplement.

Sounds awesome. The reason why stacking those makes sense to me is because MK-677, I think of as a fat releaser, release fat from the fat cells into the bloodstream. And I think of carterine as a fat burner just because it allows your cells to use fat for fuel easier. So you can see the synergy. So even if you didn't want to stack those two, you could think, okay, what else could I take to release fat? Ah, a stimulant.

So if you were to take even just coffee or caffeine, that is mostly a fat releaser, but it's also a fat burner, a thermogenics, but it's only like 5% increase in fat burning. But that's a good combination. Anytime you stack something on both sides of the equation, then you get synergy. We're actually going to come up with a fat loss ebook. We also want to do an anabolic matrix ebook and an ebook on insulin. What people forget about fat is that you have to release the fat, burn the fat and prevent fat storage. So the best way to oxidize fat would be, you know,

doing something like high intensity interval training. That's going to release the fat and then do easy steady state cardio after to burn the fat and then preventing fat storage. That'd be, you know, maybe avoiding carbs in the first meal you eat. You can also use supplements like CLA, but people kind of, just like with the anabolic matrix, we're trying to exhaust all these different avenues of muscle growth. Same thing with fat loss is people are so focused on burning the fat or releasing the fat or preventing fat storage is that they're forgetting you have to do all three right like a keto diet is great for preventing fat storage but you're not going to burn the fat and that's why a lot of people hit a plateau on a keto diet is because they think they just have

to do the keto diet but you also have to exhaust these other pathways. Are there any special things that women need to think about when trying to go down this route of SARMs? SARMs are great for women because they have no androgenic properties. So again, the androgenic properties increase male sexual characteristics. So for a woman that could cause virilization side effects like pitoris enlargement, facial hair growth. As a woman, I would not use RAD 140 because it's very androgenic.

I also would not use YK11 because it's very androgenic. All the other ones I think are perfectly safe. The biggest side effect I see with women is they always want to be toned, right? They're always afraid of putting on too much muscle, which sounds so ridiculous because what woman ever worked out and then actually said, oh no, I put on too much muscle. It never happens because putting on muscles hard.

Problem is with SARMs, they really do put on muscle really fast. And like baby mama, for example, even on just two weeks on a SARM, she gained so much muscle. She's like, I don't ever want to gain any more muscle. I have more muscle than I want now, but she loves to work out. So now she has to try to work out and try not to put on muscle she really does just want to get toned yeah that's awesome yeah with cartering i mean i'm i had i like i've been wanting to do it and i've been wanting to take it and so it's like all right guys i'm back so aren't we getting part two but you know i just i just want to be safe that's all i see the same guy that said he was nervous about taking collagen protein this is true yeah so let's do an experiment with let's get your cholesterol tested again

before because carterine will affect your cholesterol positively hopefully and then do the carterine experiment you want to test maybe your VO2 max we can go up to Dexfit and Folsom you can run on the treadmill test your VO2 max before and after another good one

that would be really bad that would be interesting another big problem with SARMs is that SARMs are actually legal for purchase you can sell them as a research chemical

liquid so the company will put for research purposes only not for human consumption now as great as it is from a legality standpoint, you can go on these websites

and buy them with your credit card. They're not regulated by the FDA. So that company can literally piss in that bottle, sell it to you, and you could test and say, hey, this is urine, but the FDA cannot do anything about it. They cannot shut down that company because it's not regulated by the FDA

because it's a research chemical. So I think- Is that not true of supplements? In the United States, it is. Not in Canada. In Canada, everything's a natural product. Because supplements aren't regulated by the FDA either, right? Right.

Which is a good thing. We do not want the government- If the government regulates it, it will not be beneficial to us. I see both sides. So in Canada, every supplement sold needs a natural product number. So in order to get a natural product number, you have to make sure all the ingredients are safe and the dosages used are safe. It's 180 day process. So it's very, very complicated. It's a lot of paperwork. And then before you're actually able to sell that supplement, you have to third party test it to make sure it meets label claims. So it's a pain in the ass. Like I work for

a supplement company in Canada. And if we want to develop a new product, it's 180 pain in the ass like i i work for a supplement company in canada and if we want to develop a new product it's 180 days just to be able to actually make the product and then we make it we have to third party test it send the lab results that batch has to stay into quarantine until we get health canada approval to actually be able to sell it so it's it's such a headache is that you know like you'll you'll see you're low on this one product, so you'll make more of it. And it's literally sitting in your warehouse. You got a thousand bottles of it, but you can't sell it because the Health Canada hasn't given you approval that you're allowed to sell it. So it's a positive in that any supplement you buy in Canada has a national product number.

You know you're getting exactly what is on the label, but supplements in Canada are so much more expensive because of all that paperwork and legality. And that's another, that's another, and they're going to restrict access to supplements that you might feel have a better benefit to risk ratio for you, but they feel the benefits don't outweigh the risk because maybe they don't understand the benefit of anti aging or sports performance. There's also a lot of weird, weird rules. Like one supplement, we have cardio flex. It has 2000 milligrams of vitamin C and we actually want to increase that to 3000 milligrams of vitamin C. Vitamin C being a water soluble vitamin, if you took too much of it, it's just going to go out your urine. There's no harm. I mean, if you take a kilogram of it, you might maybe get some, like an upset stomach or something, but like it physically cannot hurt you.

But Health Canada said that the maximal limit you're allowed to put in a supplement is 2000 milligrams. And there's a lot of really, really weird rules. Like taurine, you can only put, I think, 2000 milligrams per serving. And like caffeine, you can only put 200 milligrams per serving. So now what a lot of companies are doing is they're making the serving size half a scoop, which is stupid because no one takes half a scoop, but that's how they can get around it. And it's just, it's a constant headache is that, you know, you'll want to formulate a supplement and then you're constantly emailing them back and forth. They'll say this dosage isn't allowed, this ingredient is not allowed. So there's pros and cons to everything.

But in the United States, I remember read some some clinical trials and things like that where they tested some supplements and some supplements didn't even contain what was on the label yep yeah and uh there's a lot of companies to get around this or to make it sound like they have something fancy going on they'll say that they have an fda approved facility which just means that the Food and Drug Administration came through and just made sure the place was clean. But it still has nothing to do with the actual supplements that you're getting. So that's how some people get around it.

And they'll put that, they'll put that on, they're allowed to put that on their box or on their packaging. And you're like, man, the general public doesn't even know it doesn't mean anything. Yeah, but understand that I think that all the best drugs as far as benefit to risk ratio for things that I prioritize are not FDA approved. And some of the worst drugs are FDA approved. To me, FDA approved means absolutely nothing other than the bottle says what it is inside, which is usually an inferior product to something that's not FDA approved. That would just be like any of the over-the-counter supplements or things like that, right?

Or not supplements, but aspirins and things like that, right? Yeah. Those would be FDA approved. Those are FDA approved for over-the-counter sale. Can you guys explain why it's so common that when you go to buy SARMs online, you get fake stuff? There's no regulation. SARMs are expensive. I mean, so there're selective scammers.

What they do is that this company will set up a website, SARMs4U.com. To get popularity and to raise awareness, they're going to give out the best quality SARMs possible at the beginning. Word of mouth is going to go around, hey, I bought these SARMs off SARMs4U. They were great.

Once they got a client list, they then start sending crap product for the next couple months, make a ton of money. And then when people start realizing that they're getting bunk product, they close up shop. And because it's not regulated by the FDA, there's nothing people can do. So look at this. Enhanced Athlete was the number one seller of SARMs in the world and the most trusted source. And how did it do that? Because it wasn't on the underground. It was up and up like a supplement company. So it had accountability. If people had problems with it, they would report it. But instead, all the reports were unanimous that it was the best quality that they had. What the mainstream supplement industry and the pharmaceutical companies are doing are pushing

these SARMs companies into this category of research chemical companies where they can't get credit card processing, they can't openly market, and pushing them into the gray area, which is kind of like being on the black market, to where they're forced to deal with so much stuff that the priority, like the quality of the product becomes such a lower priority. They're just worried about doing payment processing and getting shipments out. If it were more in the open and sold as supplements i see i think you'd see the quality be much higher like it was with

enhanced athletes so sarms were legal they're still legal they're just illegal to sell under the fda code for human consumption for the purpose of acting like a drug which is basically having any effect on the body but uh maybe like a few years ago like some of them were actually leaked like uh no no like over the counter like you can walk into a supplement store i mean i still hear i get tons of messages from people that are saying like oh i'm gonna start this and blah blah and i'm always like hey just make sure your source is legit oh it's legit it's from a nutrition shop down the street i was like damn you guys are so lucky wherever you're at it's a gray area where it's legit it's from a nutrition shop down the street i was like damn you guys are so lucky wherever you're at it's a gray area where it's not legal but it's not illegal so sarums are allowed

to be sold as a research chemical the problem is when you sell something as a capsule it you have the assumptions for human consumption right so they can shut you down if you're selling sarums encapsulated form because they can say hey you're trying to sell you're trying to you're selling SARMs encapsulated form because they can say, hey, you're trying to sell, you're trying to educate people on how to take this for human consumption. So you have to be really, and that's why a lot of these smaller companies can fly under the radar because the FDA just never finds out about them.

But it's a company as big as an enhanced athlete, everyone's talking about them. So the FDA shuts them down to kind of like make a symbol, like, hey, don't do this. Now with the research chemical liquids, you can legally sell those, but it has to be for research purposes only. So if on the website you talk about dosages

or you talk about benefits or anything like that, they'll shut you down immediately. So literally your website has to be like, Carterin, dose per milliliter, add to cart. Like that's all I can say. Got it. Tony, I mean, everybody like has sent me messages i mean you hear and you read it all online pal enhanced athlete had the absolute best stuff um are you able to talk about like what happened with like not being able to

sell sarms uh here in the states yeah the the fda supplement in companies certain law firm everybody just attacked enhanced athlete because it was number one so that's exactly right it got enough attention to where everybody who wanted to get rid of sarms came at enhanced yeah because you see the uh like the youtube videos where it's you in the courtroom and like the the uh the article or whatever it is worried like oh enhanced athlete rated. Well, yeah, enhanced athlete was becoming – think about what a threat enhanced athlete was to pharmaceutical industry. People started realizing these SARMs can cure a lot of diseases. I'm not going to say which disease because that's exactly what gets me in trouble. But cure a lot of these diseases that would make them compete with pharmaceutical companies, like actually cure diseases, not treat symptoms.

would make them compete with pharmaceutical companies, like actually cure diseases, not treat symptoms. Then you have the mainstream supplement industry that's worried that, oh, if people are buying SARMs, they're never going to buy protein powder. They can spend $50 on a bottle of SARMs that will give them more muscle gains than thousands of dollars of protein powder. So they see that competition. And then you have the underground steroid world. Steroids cost to manufacture about one-tenth what it costs to manufacture SARMs.

It's highly profitable. And so the steroid companies are nervous that the SARMs, being easier to distribute, easier to sell, are going to completely wipe out the steroid market. And they probably would have if Enhanced Athlete kept the momentum. I think the steroid market probably would have dropped way down because they would have replaced it. How big is this? Like how important is it to people? Like what kind of – if you can talk about it, like how much were you guys able to generate per month or like what did sales look like? Like how many people are interested in SARMs?

It was trending to where it would have taken over the steroid market. Everyone wants to know about SARMs. It's the flavor of the month. Everyone's excited about it. I'm not big on Instagram. I'm going to make a post once per week, if that. I kind of hate social media. I'm the opposite of Tony.

Tony, every five minutes. I hate working out with Tony because every set, oh, let's do a story and i'm like let's just work out like i'm sick of this but even then like i get countless messages per day asking questions on sarms um i just like posted on my story not even my regular post that i finished the ebook i got over 100 messages people when where can i buy it? How much is it? Even at the university, I have people constantly coming up to me like, hey, what is Carterin? How do these things work? Because people are excited because the consensus of SARMs is it's new, it's exciting. And if it can offer the same benefits as steroids but without the side effects, that would be groundbreaking, right?

And what excites me as an academic researcher is that you have severe diseases like sarcopenia, you have muscle wasting diseases like cancer. If you could give a drug that would increase muscularity, functionality, flexibility, quality of life, that would be groundbreaking. So how SARMS came about is that if you have someone with a muscle wasting disease like cancer and you gave them steroids, that would increase muscle, that would improve their quality of life, they'd then be able to take care of themselves. Because the problem with cancer, sarcopenias, these people become so frail that they basically get stuck in old folks' home. But the problem with steroids is they're not selective, right?

So they bind to the antigen receptor, but they also bind to your prostate, your liver, your kidneys. Someone with cancer, you definitely wouldn't want to be giving them something that's going to affect their liver or kidneys or prostate. So how SARMS came about is could we develop a drug that was selective that bound the angio receptor but didn't bind to anything else so that's how SARMs came about which is really really exciting is it's groundbreaking information I think where we are with SARMs we're just scratching the surface I think the next 10 to 20 years there's gonna be a lot more information I think we're gonna actually be able to buy them legally with a prescription. I think doctors will start prescribing them. Um, all the clinical studies so far have been very,

very positive. Um, if you read the clinical studies, every, every doctor who wrote the clinical study says like, I'm very excited about this. More research needs to be done. Um, I, I'm excited about it. I think we're just scratching the surface. What's, uh, the best ones to take for strength and size? So we're using MagneLone and Follitonic on Trevor, which is the injectable YK11 and the Legandrol. That, not necessarily taking at the same time, but alternating between the two is probably the most effective, but we're going at the same time with Trevor alternating between the two is probably the most effective.

But we're going at the same time with Trevor. We only have one week to do it. Those put on a crazy amount of size. The safest one would be Ostrin. Ostrin has the most clinical trials backing it. Every clinical trial has been beneficial. There's been no side effects. There's actually been a couple of long-duration clinical trials.

Again, the highest dosage used is 3 milligrams. So just use it as a grain of salt. In the three milligram clinical trial, there is no suppression of testosterone, but again, three milligrams and 25 milligrams are completely different things. I would say the most powerful SARM, but also the newest SARM, so we're just learning about is YK11, and that's because YK11 has the ability to lower myostatin. Myostatin is a gene that basically... Sorry, I look like a Belgian blue cow. Well, myostatin basically regulates how much muscle you can build.

So if you lower myostatin and then you stack it with other things that increase hypertrophy, hyperplasia... Oh my God. The limits are basically removed on how much muscle you can build. I think YK11 will revolutionize bodybuilding. It's very new.

There hasn't been any human clinical trials, only animal clinical trials. The Half-Life in Rats was four hours. We still don't know the Half-Life in Humans. We're just starting to learn about this arm, but to date, it's by far the most powerful one, and I think it's going to be

extremely exciting. About to see bodybuilders looking even bigger than they currently look. To the Osterine, I think it's really effective for a beginner, but we notice when we give it to pro bodybuilders. See, I'm trying to replace pro bodybuilders' steroid cycles with SARMs. widths arms and with magdalene and yk11 uh magdalene and folitonic the injectable versions of yk and and ligand draw i can easily replace their best steroid cycle with less side effects so i find all this really interesting but i can't with osterine not with not with someone who already has a lot of muscle it doesn't work i find all this really interesting because things you know they start extreme you know um like um there's been so many safety features added to cars over the years

and it comes from racing you know a lot of the mirrors and seat belt constructions and different things they put in your car and if you look at uh society like a lot of these a lot of great things have come from bodybuilding the ketogenic diet diet. I mean, people have been, not that it directly came only from bodybuilding, but bodybuilders have been using really low carb diets for many, many years for different purposes, different reasons. Even just the general style of dieting of a bodybuilder, just a bodybuilding diet has kind of transferred over into the general public. The way that bodybuilders build muscle has transferred over into the general public. The way that bodybuilders build muscle has transferred over into the general public. The way that bodybuilders take steroids

has transferred over into the general public because of TRT, because of hormone replacement therapy and things like that, or HRT rather. Because you're starting to see some people are like, yeah, it would be cool if I felt like I did when I was 19 or, or when I was 20, when I first started picking up weights. And so I think that you guys, even though some

people are watching this thinking, this is absolutely insane. Don't know what these guys are talking about. I think that you guys are, are definitely poking around in some of the right places because this has already happened. Like history repeats itself and it's going to happen again. And these SARMs, you're going to, I know already that professional athletes utilize them. There's been some CrossFitters that have been busted with them. There's been a lot of UFC fighters that have been busted with them. You're talking about professional bodybuilders that use them. I'm sure there's many, many people that are already using them and you're going to see

this trickle down to the point where it trickles down to the general public, and then it's going to be probably normal practice, like you're saying, where doctors are going to be like, oh, you just need carterine. You're going to probably see that happen. I can't wait for that day. Just to put it in perspective, Trevor was saying the clinical trial showed no suppression of testosterone, and then it was the same compound that I took, and you look at my labs, it's like, whoa, I thought trial showed no suppression of testosterone. And then it was the same compound that I took. And you look at my labs like, whoa, I thought you said no suppression.

I was taking 30 milligrams. The clinical trial was three. Yeah. And let me go back and clear up one thing about if I were to start SARMs when I was 16, because that shocks a lot of people. I think that's terrible. I would have done five milligrams of Osteurine just to put it in context. I would have had no natural testosterone suppression from that, but I would have built a lot of muscle. And also to put Andrew's comment in context, if you test your testosterone levels

again, four weeks later, they would be, they would have bounced back. One thing about SARMs and one thing about the clinical trials is that even some of the suppressive ones, they showed return to baseline very, very quickly because SARMs are not near as suppressive as steroids. And then also your free testosterone was pretty much the same, which is actually the value that matters. So again, total- So in exactly what happened in Andrew's lab work is one of the reasons why we're injecting the SARMs

instead of taking them oral now. So you took them all oral? He took oral. He took oral. But what Big Trevor's theory is if they're injected, they're not going to have as much of an impact on things like sex hormone binding globulin. So what's happening in his lab work is his sex hormone binding globulin is going down. His free test was still normal and his total test was dropping because the sex hormone binding globulin is going

down because the SARM is going through the liver, not that it's liver toxic, but when something anabolic goes through the liver, it does alter your natural hormone homeostasis. Lowering SHBG is actually a good thing because sex hormone binding globulin is exactly what it sounds like. It binds to sex hormones like testosterone and removes them from the body. So a lot of guys will have high testosterone, but also high SHBG, and they can't build muscle and they'll go to their doctor,

like, what's going on? Like, I can't get erection or anything. And that's the problem is because they have high testosterone, but also a lot of that testosterone is getting removed from the body. So because his testosterone and his shbg both lowered and if you look at the ratios i think your shbg actually lowered more than the testosterone did i would say he's actually at a better place hormonally and that's like so another

thing is like i wish you would have tested your estrogen um because you know testosterone aromatized into estrogen estrogen has a lot a lot of really important things in the male human body. People think estrogen is a chick hormone, but no, no, no. We need estrogen for normal sexual function. We need estrogen to sensitize the antigen receptor. Testosterone also converts to DHT. DHT

has a lot to do with developing male sexual characteristic traits. That's why transvestites take a DHT inhibitor like finasteride. So when you, when you just, what about lady boys? Yeah.

I heard transvestite. No, no, seriously. You're right up. That's been a shot of espresso. That head turn man fell so quick. DHT is what,

is what causes voice deepening and all those sorts of traits. So actually like lady boys or transvestites will take a DHT blocker like finasteride, and that's why anyone who takes a systemic DHT blocker in order to prevent hair loss, they can get severe side effects. And that's where that whole post-finasteride syndrome occurs, right? It's an actual thing. You can Google post-finasteride syndrome, and you can hear guys who took finasteride thinking it would prevent hair loss,

but now they can't get an erection or anything like that. The safest methods for hair loss would be topical products. Cause that will prevent, um, that that will prevent. I ain't got no hair and ain't got no game. So, so using a DHT blocker is very effective for preventing hair loss.

But the thing is you don't want systemic in the body. You just want on the hair follicles. So things like Rogaine are very effective. I'm using an anti hair loss shampoo would be thing is you don't want systemic in the body. You just want it on the hair follicles. So things like Rogaine are very effective. Using an anti-hair loss shampoo would be effective. I wouldn't touch Finasteride or anything like that. So my SHBG went from 50.3 down to 6.1. That's dramatic. Yeah.

So my SHBG is almost zero, by the way. The longer you stay on anabolics, pretty much anything, it ends up a lot of different anabolics lower SHBG. So just to make you feel better, mine's a lot lower than yours. All the time for the last six years. Is there anything we need to worry about in terms of liver? I know you guys have mentioned that it doesn't sound like it's very liver toxic, but. YK11 is methylated. That's the only one.

So I've done so many liver tests because that was a concern of mine early on. And I knew that a lot of people said that they're not liver toxic, but I like to experiment with extremely high dosages. So I'm not going to do 20 milligrams of a SARM and then say, oh, it's not liver toxic because I don't know. It's not enough. If I take 100 milligrams, I'll take 10 times the dosage. Then I go get my liver tested. And I've done that with all the SARMs, and I haven't found any liver toxicity with any of them.

I mean, liver values fluctuate a little bit. But you'd think if I'm taking 10 times the dosage, if it was liver toxic, I'd see it. And that goes for YK11 too. I still haven't seen any liver toxics from YK11. But I'm always taking supplements to help support my liver. Were you using injectable YK11? Yeah. Oral using injectable YK11? Yeah, oral and injectable. But oral, I only went up to 50 milligrams

on a liver test. Injectable went up to 100 milligrams of the folatonic YK11. So whenever you take a liver toxic compound, whether it be Anovar, YK11, D-Ball, if you inject it, it bypasses the first pass of the liver, so it's still liver toxic, but still liver toxic but less liver

toxic so if anyone listening to this podcast was interested in doing anovar winstroll or d-ball using actually an injectable form will cause less side effects but also be absorbed better too and yeah my my estrogen wasn't really affected at all it went down after the 14-week cycle. Pretty close. Yeah. 22 to 18. Yeah, so not much. Pretty close, yeah. I'm looking for my liver results. I know that that was pretty much intact also. I'll say that people's liver values increase a little bit when they're on anything anabolic,

oftentimes because they're training harder. And hard training affects your liver values. Same thing with C-reactive protein. C-reactive protein is a kidney test that measures protein breakdown. When you go to the gym, what are you doing? You're breaking down muscle. So any athlete will have slightly elevated C-reactive protein. And I'm just talking slightly above the normal range. If it's like 20 times the normal range, okay, there's a problem with your kidney. But if it's a couple points higher, that's completely normal. You have to remember blood work was done assuming it was for a hospital patient who's sedentary.

It doesn't apply to athletes. So a lot of these values you have to take with a grain of salt. If you want an actual accurate blood test, you should abstain from weight training at least a couple days before the blood work. But most meatheads, you say, hey, don't work out for five days. They're like, yeah. You know, and I actually wish that, I wish we had more information about blood work because I think that it would be great

if we knew what your blood is supposed to look like under normal circumstances, like under circumstances of you eating, under circumstances of you training, you know, but it's like, oh, well, you need to, you know, rest for three days or, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I wish they knew more, you know, from an athlete standpoint perspective. And maybe they develop ranges that, that are in accordance to some hard training, you know, that kind of stuff.

You can't blame the doctor because you have to remember 90 of the average population is sedentary yeah right so with medical school they're trying to train them to treat the general population right so athletes were a subculture bodybuilders are a subculture of that subculture so unless your doctor is a bodybuilder himself he's really not going to know and and like it's actually really surprising like if you tell a doctor you're taking steroids and then he's really not going to know. And, and like, it's, it's actually really surprising. Like if you tell a doctor you're taking steroids and then he's like, Oh, that's so bad. You tell him what you're taking. You tell him you take testosterone. He didn't even know testosterone was a steroid, right? He's like, Oh, you're just taking testosterone. I thought you're taking steroids. Like, no, like that, that is steroids, right? So there's, and you can't blame it, right?

Cause doctors aren't really trained in this. And also doctors aren't really interested in it. Unfortunately, I'm one of the weird aren't really interested in it, unfortunately. I'm one of the weird guys who's interested in the academia and the research. I'm also, I'm still a bodybuilder at heart. But if any of my colleagues, you said, hey, let's do some research on SARMs and let's break it down so we can explain it to bodybuilders. They'd be like, that's beneath me. You know, like I want to, I want to cure disease.

I want to help the general population. I don't want to help some idiot get 22-inch arms. And that's the stereotype is they think bodybuilders are meatheads and it's just kind of like a subculture they don't want to associate with. How about blood testing versus saliva testing? How far has that come? I don't really like saliva testing. I just think that there's too much variability in it.

In my opinion, blood test is the gold analysis is the gold standard. It's something we use in the medical profession. It's something we have used and always used. Um, the only reason why I think companies are starting to do saliva testing is it's easier. Like you don't have to shove a needle in someone's arm, take out the blood, spin it and things like that. Um, I just know myself cause I'm very interested in this stuff. I would do saliva testing and I would literally like spit on the thing five minutes later, spit on it again. And the values would be like completely different. Really? Yeah. Would that matter if it was like early in the day or later in the day or no? Well, your hormones do fluctuate frequently throughout the day, right? So that's why with blood analysis, you want to make sure it's at

the same time. You ate roughly the same thing. You worked out the same thing like that. But with saliva or blood hormone, you're testing the same hormones. It's just different ways to test it. I just think blood is a better indicator. Got it. What about ferritin levels? Mine went from 387 to 690. I don't even know what that is, but I know that's...

It's the concentration of red blood cells in your blood. That's what I talked about. It's basically the same thing as hematocrit. Hematocrit. That makes sense then. Yeah.

So same thing. Just go give blood and that'll lower. And then it's not just lifting weights that increases that. It's also a high protein diet. Anything that increases

red blood cell count. Oh, you were eating a lot more beef, right? Because you went on the vertical diet? Yeah, in general. I've been like this whole year I've been eating a lot. There's more iron iron and beef right any any weight lifter i've ever done blood

analysis for they all have high hematocrit and a high ferritin just give blood give blood once every four months um that's the easiest way to lower it you had like 300 grams a day right yeah well not like i mean that was with like a in conjunction with like a protein shake or two so it wasn't. What would be interesting would be to test a vegan bodybuilder and see if his ferritin and hematocrit was high. Cause it's, it's a question of whether it's the lifting weights or it's the high protein diet. I personally think it's more of the high protein diet.

Cause if you ever read the clinical studies on hematocrit and ferritin and what doctors are told is that if a patient has high hematocrit and ferritin, they'll tell them to avoid red meat, avoid red meat, avoid cheese, avoid saturated fats and things like that. So it's probably a combination of the two. But if I was to guess which one would be the more contributing factor, I'd probably say diet. Where can people find you guys if you want them to find you? So there's anabolic tv.com. That's the website that has the uncensored videos that I have done that got deleted from YouTube,

but I'm still on YouTube, the Dr. Tony huge channel. And then there's the SARMs book.com where people can download the book that Trevor and I are finishing up writing this week. Actually, what's exciting is we're interviewing Big Trevor also. So you'll have all three of our perspectives on each SARM

and each protocol in the book. Yeah, so what's interesting about this book is what I wrote was the clinical application. So you'll just know just the straight science, what these drugs are, how they work, the clinical studies that have been done on them, and just that. I'm just straight science where then Tony is going to come and say, hey, I've done experiments up to this dosage. I find this is a sweet spot for men. I find this is science where then Tony is going to come and say, Hey, I've gone, I've

done experiments up to this dosage. I find this is a sweet spot for men. I find this is a sweet spot for women. I like to stack it with this. I like to use it for bulking. I don't like to, or whatever. Right. So he's going to kind of explain his real world experiences and same with coach Trevor. Coach Trevor is going to say, I've noticed this. I've noticed it works really well if you stack with this or stack with that. So the ebook's gonna be a nice combination of science and real world application. And in the advanced protocols, we actually did them on some people

for the Generation I transformations and we've put on 30 pounds of muscle in 30 days. And then Instagram, DR Tony Huge. And I met a Snapchat celebrity at the expo who said that he used to love my old Snapchats because I used to have the most uncensored, raw, bodybuilding, hottie alert, injection drugs, Snapchat there was. And it was growing really fast. But then I kept getting censored. So I backed off. And now he says that they change the rules again to where you just get warnings, but they don't

necessarily delete your account. So I might start reposting to the enhanced athlete snapchat again maybe you have to check back and see whether i start that up again because if i do it'll be the most raw hardcore content that the fitness community's ever seen just like it used to be which is the reason why people started following i know people like your ig story that's for sure yes and that's like the censored like it used to be i can't post 75 of the stuff that i used to and i can't post 75 of the stuff that i used to and i would love to post what what happened that got you guys kicked out of a restaurant or something like that it was you baby mama and another chick yeah so las vegas you know america's is kind of conservative a lot of rules arbitrary in my opinion and in las vegas you think

that's the one place that you could really let loose, right? Well, last time I went to Vegas, I got kicked out for making out with a girl on the dance floor because the security gave me a warning, two warnings and said it was rated R. You have to keep things PG-13 in the dance club. Then this time, my girls are twerking on the statue

and that all of a sudden, that's not allowed in Vegas. You're not allowed to twerk on statues. Again, you'd think that's the one place. So in less than a month, three and a half weeks, I'll be back in Asia again where there aren't these rules and we can let loose a little bit and I'll have both girls with me and they'll,

I'll let them twerk on whatever they want. My, my Instagram and my website is just my first and last name, Trevor credits. And I'm not like Tony. I don't post 50 stories a day. I'm going to try posting more. my Instagram and my website is just my first and last name, Trevor Kurdetson. I'm not like Tony. I don't post 50 stories a day. I'm going to try posting more.

I am very active on social media, so if you send me a message, I will always make the time to reply. Yeah, that's basically it. Just my first and last name is pretty easy to find. Cool. Strength is never weak. This week is never strength.

Catch y'all later.