Mark Bell's Power Project - How Kettlebell Training Beats Traditional Lifts for Total Fitness - Steve Cotter || MBPP Ep. 1122

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

We are deeply saddened by the passing of Steve Cotter, a true legend in the fitness world. In this special episode of Mark Bell’s Power Project Podcast Ep. 1122, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza chat with Steve to dive into his groundbreaking insights on kettlebell training. Steve shares how kettlebells surpass Olympic lifts for total fitness by improving mobility, strength, endurance, and full-body movement. Join us as we honor Steve’s legacy and learn from one of the greatest minds in fitness history. Rest in peace, Steve.   Special perks for our listeners below!   🥜 Protect Your Nuts With Organic Underwear 🥜 ➢https://nadsunder.com/ Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 15% off your order!   🍆  Natural Sexual Performance Booster 🍆 ➢https://usejoymode.com/discount/POWERPROJECT Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!   🚨 The Best Red Light Therapy Devices and Blue Blocking Glasses On The Market! 😎 ➢https://emr-tek.com/ Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!   👟 BEST LOOKING AND FUNCTIONING BAREFOOT SHOES 🦶 ➢https://vivobarefoot.com/powerproject   🥩 HIGH QUALITY PROTEIN! 🍖 ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWER to save 20% off site wide, or code POWERPROJECT to save an additional 5% off your Build a Box Subscription!   🩸 Get your BLOODWORK Done! 🩸 ➢ https://marekhealth.com/PowerProject to receive 10% off our Panel, Check Up Panel or any custom panel, and use code POWERPROJECT for 10% off any lab!   Sleep Better and TAPE YOUR MOUTH (Comfortable Mouth Tape) 🤐 ➢ https://hostagetape.com/powerproject to receive a year supply of Hostage Tape and Nose Strips for less than $1 a night!   🥶 The Best Cold Plunge Money Can Buy 🥶 ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!   Self Explanatory 🍆 ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 Pumps explained:      ➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements!   ➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!   Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://www.PowerProject.live ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject   FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell   Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ Become a Stronger Human - https://thestrongerhuman.store ➢ UNTAPPED Program - https://shor.by/JoinUNTAPPED ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en   Follow Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Podcast Courses and Free Guides: https://pursuepodcasting.com/iamandrewz ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz/

Before we dive into this episode, I wanna take a moment to honor someone truly special. Steve Cotter, a kettlebell genius and innovator in the fitness world, recently passed away. He wasn't just a pioneer in the kettlebell space. He was a teacher, a mentor, and someone who embodied strength, humility, and curiosity. We were fortunate enough to have this conversation with him

where he shared his wisdom, his passion, and his unique perspective on martial arts, movement, and training. This episode now feels even more important, a way to celebrate Steve's incredible legacy and the impact he had on so many lives. Our thoughts and prayers go out to Steve's family, friends, and everyone who was inspired by his work. And Steve, thank you for everything you gave to this world and the wisdom you've taught us.

You'll be deeply missed. In my opinion, the kettlebell develops a more well-rounded athleticism more efficiently than purely barbell. Now, specifically when it comes to explosive ability, what do you think about the bells in terms of being comparable to the Olympic lifts as far as building really good explosive ability for athletes? The kettlebell is a power endurance.

So you're still moving it as fast as you can, but you're doing it multiple repeats. Powerlifting should really be called strength lifting and Olympic lifting is actually powerlifting. Kettlebells is in the medium. Even though this person might already have developed some strength, where do you guys suggest they start? The point is now we're learning a new method so my strength that I've developed with the

barbell it's not necessarily going to be accessible right away with the kettlebell until I perfect the fundamental technique. If you guys have been enjoying the content we've been bringing here on The Power Project, consider leaving us a review on Spotify and Apple. We've had podcasts with people from Functional Patterns to Ben Patrick to Jack Cruz, who roasted us on air, but we did that for you to bring you some of the best information in fitness. We're learning along with you and leaving a review with how you dig the podcast is really going to be something that helps the podcast move forward.

So if you can leave us a review there and enjoy the rest of the show. All right guys, we have the best podcast today. And the main reason why this is going to be the best episode of the Power Project is because the first two words of the Power Project are missing and those two words are Mark Bell. I don't know what's worse like joking about that, but also me being like, what are the first two words? Where's he going with it? I'm a fucking dumb ass.

I swear. I'm messing around. Nah, we missed Mark today, but we have something better. We have an OG in the kettlebell space. You've been doing kettlebells for forever. Like you're one of the first, right? Early days, yeah. I was one of the first adapters, like 2001.

What was that like? It was, you know, it was a handful of guys like Steve Maxwell was one of the first, Jeff Martone. Literally, there was no kettlebells in the sporting goods stores at that yet. It actually was one of the very first modalities that started with the proliferation of the internet age where you actually had to get on the internet to learn about kettlebells, which was unorthodox because normally you go to the sporting goods store. Sporting goods stores didn't know about it. Most of the first early adapters were martial artists, like martial artists and military guys.

I saw that. So I used to get a catalog in the, it was like a quarterly, you know, glossy colored catalog from Dragon Door is called Vitalix. And I was on their mailing list since probably 1998 or something like that. And around- Their email mailing list or like their or something like that.

And around- The email mailing list or like their physical mail? No, in the mail. You would get it in the US postal mail. And so, because I was totally dedicated to the Chinese martial arts back then. I started studying Chinese Kung Fu, internal Kung Fu when I was 12 years old. Oh man. And Dragon Door at that time started with sort of a martial art catalog. They were selling

videos on like Tai Chi and Qigong meditations and this type of thing. So that was my interest in Dragon Door. And around 2000, I started seeing these in the Vitalix catalog, I started seeing these colored pages of this guy Pavel. Pavel Satseline. And I'm like, oh, this guy's different, you know? And first, it wasn't even the kettlebell first. The first thing I saw was I think a stretching. He had a video called the Beyond Stretching.

He was doing the splits. I was a video called the Beyond Stretching. He was doing the splits. I was like, oh, that looks cool. And then there was one called The Power to the People, which was deadlift. It was like deadlift and one arm press with a barbell. And I said, oh, that's pretty interesting. And then-

As a way, deadlift, single arm, deadlift, and single arm. I think it was like a regular deadlift and a single arm press or a side press. With a barbell? With the barbell. Yeah. Okay. And that was that was his program. And then I started seeing the kettlebells around 2001 and that caught my eye and I was like, man that looks really cool. Now at this time, this was actually even before CrossFit. Oh yeah, way before. So I was very interested in Olympic weightlifting.

I was becoming interested in Olympic weightlifting because I had been doing Kung Fu since 1982. So it was like 20 years of Kung Fu. Well, you've been doing Kung Fu since 1982. At that time, at that time. So we're talking like early 2000s. I started training Kung Fu in 1982. I was 12 years old. And that was my first profession.

By 15, I was teaching. I was running a kids program at the community center. And then by 18, I was running the school because my Kung Fu Sifu at that time, Sifu Mike Patterson, he had a serious back injury. So he wasn't around a lot. And I was like the young kid who was training every day. And I had, you know, I had a certain talent that I had developed over those years. And so he was like, I need you to run classes for me.

So I was running a school with like 300 people starting when I was 18 years old. And that was my first profession. And at that time I thought, well, I'm going to be... This will be my job for the rest of my life. This will be my profession. And then like by 1996, 97, change of direction, I had a falling out with my Kung Fu teacher. He was like a...

He was like almost like a surrogate father. Because I started under him when I was 12 years old. I came out to California from the East Coast. Didn't have my parents with me. I was living with my older brothers who were in their 20s at that time. So I was very independent. And so anyway, by 97 I'm like, okay, I'm not going to be teaching Kung Fu as my career

anymore, so now what? So I decided to go to college. And 97, I started going to college and I got my degree in kinesiology. Coming out of college in 2001, I was like, I'm going to transition into fitness now. That was right when Kettlebells was coming out. And just around that time also, Bosu came out. And I met David Weck in 2000. I was touring around the country with David

going all the major fitness shows, demonstrating the Bosu. At that time was still making it by hand. He was like cutting the Swiss balls in half and staple and glue and duct tape. So that was, I was getting into the fitness thing. I saw the K the kettlebell advertisements. And so all those years when I was, I started becoming interested in the weight training,

but I was going to the gym and it was more like bodybuilding stuff, you know, getting Muscle Media 2000 magazine, you know, Arnold's, Swartz and Engers, the Cyclopedia and just following that. And I never felt like it actually contributed to me becoming a better martial artist or more skillful martial artist. Let me ask you about that because I think like, you know, I think so many people can relate to seeing those magazines, seeing Arnold himself, seeing those physiques, wanting those physiques, training to get those physiques. But you mentioned that you didn't see it being beneficial to the martial arts. Why?

Because someone would look at something like that and be like, that guy's strong. Right? Yeah, because essentially martial art is, it's an animalistic, you know, I call it primitive. Primitive is like fight and flight, reflexive responses. So either, and this is what I've evolved to, but everything I do in training is,

it's either gonna make you be a more effective fighter so you can defend yourself and your family, or it's going to make you a better mover so you can get out of danger. And if it's not contributing to one or both of those things, you're wasting your time in training because it doesn't transfer. So with regards to the, you know, basic gym bro type stuff, martial art is integrated movement. You have to use your whole body as a unit. Good martial artists are good movers.

Exactly. And it's like a 40 pound bobcat will tear apart a 200 pound man. It's not because it's physically larger, it's because its entire body is like one muscle. So it's completely integrated in its movement. Where if I'm like pushing something with just my arms, I'm using a small part of my body,

I'm not using my entire body mass. Now, our understanding has evolved so much in the past 30 years. Kettlebell is a huge reason for that actually. But we're talking, you know, early 2000s, we didn't have this really understanding. So I never felt like I was getting, honestly I was just interested as like curls for the girls. I just wanted to be beautiful.

I wanted the girls to notice me. And- The first thing a woman noticed about me at 15 years old, she was like, oh, you're biceps. And I was like, I'm curling up. I'm getting these things bigger. So I feel you on that. But as far as like, is it making me a better fighter?

And am I hitting harder? Am I kicking harder? No, I didn't feel like it integrated with the skill development component. And so that's what caused me to be interested in Olympic weightlifting at that time. Because everything I had seen about Olympic weightlifting, you know, it's ground-based, you're starting from the ground, you're going overhead, it's explosive, it's integrated, and it's pound for pound strength. So it's not just putting on mass like a bodybuilder, but it's getting more strong at the bodyweight that you're at and faster. And so I was interested in that, but there was no Olympic weightlifting.

The closest legitimate Olympic weightlifter was a guy named Coach Mike Bergener, who was about an hour and more than an hour north of me in a small little town in North County, San Diego. And I went up and I trained with him. And the first time I trained with him, he's like, you wanna go to the Olympics? Because I was doing, he had me doing these pistol squats off of like plyo box. And I used to do pistol squats all the time. I was doing like 80 reps

a leg you know so I was cranking those out. He's like I'll turn you into an Olympic weightlifter. And I was really interested but I couldn't drive up to Bonsall, California from La Mesa, so it wasn't really accessible. As I said, CrossFit wasn't around. They kind of put Olympic weightlifting everywhere when they became prominent. And so then when I saw the kettlebell, it reminded me of Olympic weightlifting,

but it was something that you could do at home, and it seemed a little bit less technical, so that, it drew me. Now initially, I didn't wanna invest in the kettlebells cause they were, it was like 180 bucks for 32 kilograms, something like that. And I didn't have money at that time. I was a young guy, just starting,

not even really developing my career yet. And so I was hesitant to invest in the kettlebells. I was still teaching martial arts at that time at a local park, because during the week I was going to college and then I was still teaching courses or teaching classes on the weekend. So I brought the catalog with me to my Kung Fu students. One student, the next week he showed up and he had, he brought

like three kettlebells. He had like a 16, a 24 and a 32. And I immediately just picked it up and did a, I think I picked up the 24 and I did a swing. Now I didn't have any instruction, but it's sort of intuitively just what I saw in the, in the pictures. And I did it and I immediately felt from the ground up the connection, like coming from the ground and expressing the power through my hands. And I was like, okay, now I have to get... So I immediately ordered two kettlebells.

I ordered a 16 and a 24. Now, the Statue of Limitations has run out, so I could say this openly that he gave me a pirated copy of the VHS. Pablo had this, you know, this is the time it was in, it was VHS. It wasn't even DVD yet. And so it was a VHS of, it's called the Russian Kettlebell Challenge. So I followed...

I have a quick question for you. Were kettlebells like popular in Russia quite before this? And it just hit the US in the 2000s? Or was it... I would say that the popularity actually started, yeah. like popular in Russia quite before this, and it just hit the US in the 2000s, or was it just? I would say that the popularity actually started, yeah, so that's a video of actually the first kettlebell video of Paul Bell, which is the Russian kettlebell challenge.

And so I basically was following his movements, you know, in my living room, putting this VHS and just doing it. And I really enjoyed it. And I was able to pick it up really quickly because I had been training martial arts for, you know, more than 20 years at this point or 20 years. And so I understood, you know, movement and how to mimic things. And I just was training myself. After about one week, I was like, I got to get a heavier kettlebell.

So I got a 32 kilogram. At that time, there was just three. There was a 16 kilogram, which is 35 pounds. There was a 24 kilogram, which is like 53 pounds. And then there was the 32 kilogram, which is like 71 pounds. So now I had three kettlebells. And I was doing, you know, what he was prescribing. It was like, okay, five reps of this, 10 reps of that.

And I was able to pick up all the movements. And, you know, so that kind of started, that started it. I have a question for you, man, because, you know, I've noticed as I've been working with bells, sandbags, these types of implements, I still use the barbell here and there, but I think there's a few things where people think that if it's not with the barbell to build strength,

if it's not with the barbell to build explosive ability, it's like you're not going to really get that much because of the absolute way you can put on the barbell. Now specifically when it comes to explosive ability, what do you think about the bells in terms of being comparable to the Olympic lifts as far as building really good explosive ability for athletes? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I would say it is very comparable. The fundamental difference is in the key attribute.

So because the kettlebell is not a one rep max, and that's the distinction. The kettlebell is a sub max. Unless you use a super heavy bell. Yeah, I mean you could, but that's more of the exception to the rule because the... But in terms of general, the kettlebell is a sub max. Like, like if you were going to deadlift, especially a strong guy like you, if you're going to deadlift, you're going to use a barbell because the kettlebell isn't heavy enough to solicit that maximal effort. So you're going to use the kettlebell. And so the fundamental difference

is the Olympic lifting is power development in the pure sense, because it's load and done with speed. So it's maximal work as fast as possible, which is giving you that power. The kettlebell is a power endurance. So you're still moving it as fast as you can, but you're doing it multiple repeats. And so it's a power endurance versus a pure power. Whereas if we look at powerlifting, it's actually the misnomer.

Powerlifting should really be called strength lifting. And Olympic lifting is actually powerlifting. And kettlebells is in the medium. And so if you look like on one end of the spectrum, you have pure endurance, that would be like marathon training or endurance training. On the other end of the spectrum, you have pure, you could say powerlifting and Olympic lifting,

which is maximal effort. And kettlebells is in the middle because it's mostly endurance, but there is resistance and you are getting heavier and you are going faster and you are working for longer. So you're developing multiple attributes. In my opinion, the kettlebell develops a more well-rounded athleticism more efficiently

than purely barbell. Agreed. Also, the second thing too is like, not again, I'm not saying Olympic lifts are bad, but they are so technical for most people and most people do not build the correct technical efficiency that they just end up fucking themselves up with the Olympic lifts. I'm not telling you not to go learn Olympic lifts, but I'm telling you if you go learn it, you need to be, you need to be gentle with yourself because most people mess themselves up because they don't have the best Olympic lifting coach. They're extremely technical in the most respectful way.

They're extremely technical. Yes, and it's a young person's game if you're gonna master that because there's degrees of flexibility. There's the type of flexibility you can develop as an adult and then there's the type of flexibility you can only develop prepubescent. We've watched those Chinese weightlifters

on this channel, on the show before. Yes, and they're more flexible, and so they're more technical. They're not necessarily stronger. They're obviously strong, but they develop their strength through the technique, and the flexibility allows them to get into the positions to load the body in that way.

And that would have been, in my opinion, when CrossFit was sort of super popular, that was it's, in my opinion, the main criticism is that they were getting office workers to do overhead squats with a barbell and they lacked the fundamental shoulder girdle mobility to be able to do it correctly. And so then you have this compensations and that's where the kettlebell would be a better option because the kettlebell you have a, you can do it with a single and it introduces movement in the rotational plane. So if you're, if you're lacking in the sagittal plane, the capacity to if you're lacking in the sagittal plane, the capacity to open your chest and shoulders

and load it behind you, you know, with a bar, you're kind of, either you can do it or you can't. And so if you can't, you compensate, now your knee or something else is getting tweaked. And you maybe don't notice it at first, and then as you progress the weight, it's gonna catch up and then the injury is gonna occur.

With the kettlebell, if I don't have the range of motion on this frontal plane, I can open to one side and I can still keep the load vertically over my center of mass. And now I can find, because our bodies are not symmetrical. Symmetry is sort of an ideal that we shoot for. We'd like to be 50-50, but we're not. We don't part our hairs directly down the center, right? And so everyone is a little bit asymmetrical. Some people are drastically asymmetrical.

The, you know, so-called one leg is longer than the other, right? It's not because one leg is longer. It's because the pelvis is tilted or twisted. So it looks like one leg, because your body is, can't, you know, torque to one side. And so there needs to be the acknowledgement and maybe the recognition of, okay, I'm not symmetrical. So when I squat, maybe I'm gonna turn one foot

a little bit out more than another. And, you know, it's the philosophical differences. Some people insist on you gotta keep your toes forward. I don't believe in that. Well, you're a martial artist anyway. So you already understand that like, in martial arts, there's no fixed way that you have to move to do something.

You have to adjust with what your body's giving you and what your opponent's giving you. In this case, the opponent's kind of like the kettlebell. And the kettlebell's the same thing. It's like, there's no styles, right? There's my style and there's your style. There's body types. So your body type is gonna influence

the way your movement is expressed. So if you're thick or thin, tall or short, skinny, fat, right? The mistake is if you try thick or thin, tall or short, skinny, fat, right? You're, you know, the mistake is if you try to model off of someone who has a totally different body type, your movements aren't going to look like that. And so now you're trying to, you know, it's like the Roman soldier. Everyone's got to dress the same and walk the same, but that's not the reality. You know, we're all different. It's the law of individual differences.

So, you know, I believe in... What I teach through the kettlebell, I call it the martial art of kettlebell. And so you learn the methods, you learn the fundamentals, and now you own it and you make it your own. So it becomes your style. It's the way you're gonna express yourself. The fundamentals are based on principles. The principles never change.

You know, so in martial art, we have this adage that, study technique to learn principle, holding principle, forget technique. The technique can change. So you study the technique to absorb the principle. Holding the principle, you forget the technique. The technique can change, the principle never change. principle, you forget the technique. The technique can change, the principle never change.

So if we're talking about kettlebell, what's the key principle of kettlebell? It's the law of inertia. A body set in motion stays in motion. So you wanna get it moving, you wanna keep it moving. Right, and that's taught in the swing. So it's the pendulum swing. So now that I understand the pendulum with the swing,

well now I can direct it upward and catch it at my chest. That's to clean. I can direct it upward more, increase the amplitude, catch it overhead. That's the snatch. Yeah. You know, so essentially there's one technique. And the one becomes the many.

And so when we understand the principle, we understand the laws of nature. And now we can deviate in terms of, okay, how are we expressing that principle in what the purpose of the movement is, which is the technique. I want to add into real quick that one of the beautiful things that I think, because another I think criticism of the bell is that, well, how are you going to build a lot of muscle with that thing? Like you're swinging a kettlebell, but you got to understand we can use this implement in a lot of different ways. You slow down the movement, right?

And so that like you could, you could do a clean to your shoulder and then you could use your body to press it above your head or you could literally slow it down and press it above your head with your shoulder. If you're trying to build some mass on your shoulder. There's so much room to do this with your legs, your arms, your triceps, everything. If you slow the movement down and focus on that muscle, then use the inertia, get the bell moving and keep the bell moving. It's like, there's so many, you can build muscle with the bell. I think so many people are proving that these days.

And Andrew pulled up our boy, every goddamn Dre. He's one of those people. He's a great example. Yeah, Dre's a great example guy that's using Bell and got a lot of mass, is maintaining his mass. Another good reference, shout out to a guy named Joe Daniels. Joe Daniels. Swing this kettlebell. He'd be a good guy for you to talk to.

I mean, he's a guy that really puts a lot of emphasis in getting stronger and putting on mass using only kettlebells. You know, and so the basic fundamental technique, there's no secret. The methodology is the same. Big fucking legs. Yeah, yeah. So Joe, you know... So thick.

Basically, you're using heavier bells and you're doing a lot of double bells. And the double bells is, you know, because let's say if you're using a 40 kilogram kettlebell, that's about 90 pounds, maybe the 40 kilogram you can't control easily if you're using a 40 kilogram kettlebell, that's about 90 pounds, maybe the 40 kilogram you can't control easily if you're not strong enough, but you can use two 20 kilos, 20 kilos, 45 pounds each. You know, you're still using 40 kilos,

but you're distributing over both limbs so that your skeleton is still carrying the same load, but you're not overloading your shoulder girdle, for example. I will say what you just mentioned there about the skeleton, that is one thing that I don't use the barbells nearly as much as I used to, but the one reason I still will do like a barbell box squat

is because of the way I can load my skeletal structure. I can actually, like when we know that, when we can compress our structure, that can help build bone density. And although I can do that with double heavy bells, I can add more weight on the barbell and compress my structure more. And that's why you can squat more weight

than you could probably squat with a sandbag. Or like, that's why it's easier to pick up a 250 pound barbell, 300 pound barbell, than picking up a 300 pound sandbag. Because that weight is dispersed around this thing. And then if you can load that on your skeletal structure, that's one of the strengths of the barbell. The absolute load that you can put on your frame. Because I think you can still build a lot of muscle with these other implements,

but the ability for you to load your structure, that's where the barbell can be better. For that specific aspect of loading, axial load. That specific aspect of loading, the barbell still holds that. Absolutely. And the professional kettlebell lifters, they use barbells actually for their strength treatment. Most of them, many of them. So fundamental deadlift, squatting movements, even pressing movements would be part of, in that case, if you're a kettlebell lifter,

that's part of your GPP, that's part of your general conditioning, whereas the kettlebell is the specific conditioning, you know, and then oftentimes the Russian power lifters will use kettlebells for their mobility. To augment that. Well, for example, okay, let's say that you're gonna do, or rather Olympic lifters, even more so. Let's say that you're gonna do an overhead squat

as an Olympic lifter. You're probably gonna wanna warm up with a one-hand kettlebell squat to prepare the shoulders, you know, to go a little deeper before you start putting the heavy load with the barbell. No barbell now you're fixed in that frontal plane. So you want to make sure you're extremely warm. The overhead squat with a single bell is a great way to lead into that. Yeah. Let me ask you this. When you were doing Olympic or when you were interested

in doing Olympic lifting back in the day and you learned about kettlebells, did you ever go down the route of still doing Olympic lifting or? No, I just, I just went into the kettlebell at that point and there wasn't, you know, Olympic lifting wasn't yet easy to find. Okay. You know, it was more rare. There was just a, it wasn't like everybody was Olympic weightlifting coach back then. There was just a few guys and you know, again, there was no one in my area.

When I found the kettlebell, that fulfilled the interest and need because it gave me that explosive lifting method. Gotcha. I wanted to ask, so somebody that's listening to the show right now, they've probably developed some good habits in the gym, maybe some pretty decent strength But maybe they're not moving outside of like barbell movements third. They see the kettlebells and like yeah

I know I want to get to that but like I got my thing over here Even though this person might already have developed some strength Where do you guys suggest they start when it comes to flip not flipping? I forgot that that actually is a thing, because I almost said throwing around, flipping around, but just moving around some kettlebells, like as far as like maybe some basic movements, and then also like what weights or yeah, what, how heavy of a kettlebell should somebody like really just like start opening these doors to? Yeah, I mean, there's definitely some good standards to that, recommendations, but the first principle

of training is do no harm, so don't injure yourself. Which means we have to be willing to, even if someone who's strong has to be willing to sort of empty their cup a little bit in terms of the... That was good. That was really good. Like the ego lifting, because it is a technique and it's a technique that's not familiar with you yet.

Even, you know, you might be pressing 350 pounds, you know, which in this room, maybe that's not a lot for a men's press, right? But maybe that's a warmup set for Mark Bell. I don't know. But the point is, is you're moving a lot for a men's press, right? But maybe that's a warm-up set for Mark Bell. I don't know. But the point is, you're moving a lot of weight. The Fat Mark Bell. Now I can roast him.

He ain't saying anything back. You know, and so the point is now we're learning a new method. So my strength that I've developed with the barbell, it's not necessarily gonna be accessible right away with the barbell, it's not necessarily going to be accessible right away with the kettlebell until I perfect the fundamental technique. So yes, you always have to start with the fundamentals. In kettlebell, I refer to the big six of what I would distinguish as the fundamentals. So we have the swing, the clean, the press, the push press, the snatch, and the squat. And so you want to, you want to master those with a single bell. So you're

doing both hands individually, and then you want to come back and master them again with the double bell. And those are the fundamentals. You learn those and you learn those well, you're gonna be able to figure everything else out because all other techniques have one or more of those elements within them. And so as far as the weight, normally if it's a man and he's healthy, 16 kilogram, which is a 35 pound. So it's light enough that if you're strong,

you're not gonna to injure yourself when you make bad technique and you will have some bad techniques as you're learning. But it's heavy enough that you're going to get that resistance and that feedback that you need to educate you. For women, we would normally say start with an eight kilogram, which is you know, about 18 pounds. And then you know you can increase, a typical progression is like 4 kilogram jumps, which is 9 pounds. So you go from like a 16 kilogram to a 20 kilogram, from 35 to 45. That's the normal recommendation for healthy adults.

But again, if you're a little bit injured, a guy maybe going to start with a 25 pound, a 12 kilogram. And even if it's light, you can always do more work. So we get the volume in kettlebell by doing more repetition as opposed to keep jumping up the weight. And so, you know, use a weight that's pretty light and everything under 30 reps is low reps in kettlebell. So, you know, normally it's like I want to do at least 30 or more before I could say, okay, I'm ready to move up to the next weight. I'm talking about in a single set. You know, oh, go ahead.

Yeah. And so that doesn't mean to be clear, it doesn't mean that's the only way to train. Like you can do sets of three, you can do sets of five. But we're talking about best use and primary focus. Again, the kettlebell is a power endurance and it's a submaximal. So once again, if your objective is building maximal strength, once you get to a certain level, you're going to use a barbell for that. Now, an interesting thing about what you just mentioned about like 30 rep sets, maximal strength, once you get to a certain level, you're gonna use a barbell for that. Now, an interesting thing about what you just mentioned about 30 rep sets, this is why I think it's so cool,

where if we look at the principles of even hypertrophy, where we're talking about typically sets of eight to 20 repetitions close to failure, if you keep that principle in mind, and you use a heavy enough bell with whatever it is you're doing in a slow fashion, it could be like a 20 rep push press, right? But towards rep 20, you're maybe getting towards failure.

That's gonna induce a level of hypertrophy for your shoulders and all the other muscles that you're using to work that, but especially for the shoulders. We can do that for biceps. We could do that for so many of these different kettlebell movements, even a dual kettlebell goblet squat,

if it's heavy enough, right? And if it's slow enough, one of those things is you can control the tempo too. So if you slow down that repetition of those kettlebell, dual kettlebell goblet squats, and you're getting towards failure towards rep 15, 18, 20, you're inducing hypertrophy. Absolutely, yes, absolutely.

And the more skillful lifter, his movements are gonna become so efficient, he's not likely to get the hypertrophy because the body finds the path to least resistance. I have a question for you. How about finding inefficiency? Yes, that may be a goal. That may be a goal, you know, as a training protocol. So the example you gave of like, okay, you can push press and you can do more reps

because you're using your legs to initiate and just kind of bouncing it. So really the tricep just has to lock it out. However, if you're trying to reduce the efficiency to maximize the effort, well now you're going to do a strict press. You're not going to use any leg drive. Now let's say with the strict press, you're using your heaviest kettlebell and it no longer is challenging to where you can do 10 reps. Okay, so now, well you can get a heavier kettlebell, but maybe that's not an option. So now you can sit on the ground and do a sitting press.

Or you can go into a full squat and press like a Sots press. And that's an interesting example because Sots, the whole story behind Sots was a guy that, he loved kettlebells, and his favorite exercise was the press Uh-huh, and he would you know, he had a whole collection He would start every day as his workout the lightest kettlebell and he would do presses all the way up Until he could press the heaviest kettlebell. Finally, he got to the point where his heaviest kettlebell Wasn't heavy enough anymore.

It was not challenging. And so then that's when you decide, okay, I'm gonna go into a full squat and I'm gonna start pressing from the full squat. So you're taking the legs completely out of it. Now you gotta generate more upper body power in order to launch the bell. Yeah.

And you know what, like, the cool thing about this, like some of these ideas, some people will like look at that and like, well, why wouldn't you just press standing up? Well, why not develop a level of strength in a squat, right? But then also, when we think about bodybuilding, right? Bodybuilding is inherently finding the most inefficient way to somewhat lift,

to focus on a specific muscle group. So an efficient way to get a dumbbell up to here wouldn't just be to curl it with my arm, would be to swing it to my arm. It would be to cheat curl it. That's why you can see guys cheat curl in 80, 90 pounds, right? But the more inefficient way, which is only going to use your biceps, to stand there curling a bicep, curling the barbell or the dumbbell. And if you can just think about that when you're applying it to your kettlebells,

if you're not just looking to work on explosive ability and strength, but you're also looking to induce some high perch for you, because I think that's one of the biggest things where people dis on kettlebells. They don't think you can build muscle. But just think about focusing on that muscle group and being a little bit more inefficient with the way you move the bell. And then also how strong are you going to be if you have strength in this weird position at the bottom of a barbell squat, right? Like it's only going to carry over versus the other, will carry over but not to this extent in my opinion.

You're right. Life and martial art. Yes. Yes. If you train with like one hand in your belt for two months. Oh shit. Yeah. Right? And then you take that hand and now you have two hands. It's like you grew an extra hand. So you're going to be that much better. Yeah. One of the most eye-opening things is like sometimes we'll do some drills or whatever. Like situationals where like the guy on bottom, like you're not allowed to use your hands.

And the guy on top, like you can do whatever you want to pass his guard. In those moments, my guard is so much better than when I have my hands. It's because I'm now forced to move and react, right? So it's funny how like, yeah, if I just like went a month or two without no arms, I might be able to, my guard would be so much better. Yes.

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of no strips as well as a bedside tin. Again, that's at hostagetape.com slash power project. Links in the description as well as the podcast show notes. Exactly. So with, but with kettlebell is something I want to ask, because like I'm guilty of like just going way overboard with everything where it's like, oh, I wanna, you know, I wanna do some zircher squats or something, right?

Let me get the kettlebell version of it or whatever it is, like overhead press? Let me get the kettlebell version of it. Or whatever it is, like overhead press. Let me do the kettlebell version. Can you like overdo it? Outside of like just wanting to lift heavier weights, can you just do too much of the kettlebell? Like is there ever a time where you should like maybe draw that shit back a little bit? Yeah, so you know, injury is the most obvious.

Like if you're, if you've, if you've injured yourself, you've done something wrong, basically. You know, the rest is going to be your, the other factors, your, your age, your experience, you know, the intensity. And I don't think there's a perfect program. I think you need to realistically train at least three times per week in order to continue to make steady progress. But you could also train every day.

You know, if you're gonna train every day, you need to vary the intensity. So I'm saying if you're training three days a week, that's you're training with full intensity and then allowing at least one day of rest in between sessions. On those other days, you can do other activities. That doesn't mean you're not training at all, but you're not necessarily specifically doing the kettlebell. You know, so basically with kettlebells, you have three variables that you're manipulating at any given training session.

It's the weight of the kettlebell, it's the time or the duration of the set, which would include reps. The longer the set, the more reps. And then there's the speed of execution, which we measure in repetitions per minute. So with all the movements with the exception of swing with swing there's not a lot of variation in the speed because it's a continuous movement like a pendulum but when you get to almost all

the other movements like the clean the press the snatch there's a distinctive stopping motion, what we call the static component. And there can be a great variation in the speed. So like with the clean, I could do six reps a minute, one rep every 10 seconds, right? I could do 10 reps a minute, one rep every six seconds, or I could do 20 reps a minute, one rep every three seconds. I could go 30 reps a minute, one rep every two seconds, because I have the ability to pause in the static position. Same thing with like a one-arm jerk or, you know, or double kettlebell jerk. You have the ability to pause in the rack position and then you have the ability to pause in the overhead position.

So you can vary the speed. And so, as far as doing too much, if you do a training and you can't come back in two days and do it again, you probably did it too much. And so that's not really happening in your training cycle. If it's well organized, you're gonna plot it such that you're able to follow a schedule. Your max effort is actually only gonna be in competition. schedule, your max effort is actually only going to be in competition. That's your max effort. So you want to be able to peak on competition day. You will during your training cycle, you will have test dates or test sessions. But you know,

like in kettlebell sport as an athletic, it's 10 minute sets. So let's say if it's clean and jerk or if it's snatch, you're doing for 10 minutes, as many reps as you can do without putting it down. And so you're not going to do 10 minute sets in your training cycle going up to that point. You're going to maybe do a five minute test. You might do it seven minute tests. And then that 10 minute test, that's the actual moment of competition. Let me ask you this, why do you think or do you do you think that training with bells

can enhance one's movement ability more than training with barbells? In my opinion, yes. And more so as a martial artist specifically coming from that perspective. And the reason is because of primarily the design of the bell. The design of the bell allows you to keep your hand in neutral. So that's one advantage where if you compare the same weight and it's a dumbbell or a barbell,

your wrist is gonna to be extended. Yeah. So I'm not neutral. The other point is that you can connect your arm to your body with the kettlebell. So, you know, in Jiu Jitsu, we call this idea framing. You can frame. Yeah.

And you cannot do that with a barbell. If I'm cleaning, my elbows are out in front. So I don't have that arm body connectivity. And then in the overhead position, the load is able to be vertically over your center of mass and vertically over your base of support. And so you have complete neutral alignment in that sense. And again, with a bar,

the load is still over your center of mass, but your arms are extended out to the side. You're not going to be here with the arms directly over your hips. So, I think the main advantage is the actual design of the bell allows you to load your frame in a neutral position where your arm is not Disconnected from the body. Can we keep this video? I want to like Looking at this an interesting thing is you're keeping the bell moving You're using the bounce off the bottom of the squat

I think sometimes when people see kettlebell swings, I've gotten this question a lot, like what muscle is that working? So why are swings and these squats, like why can these be beneficial for martial artists or people who are trying to become better movers? What do you feel about this? So we're using the entire body as a connected unit. So it's not one muscle, It's from the ground up. And so this is a direct correlation to martial arts. So if you're going to punch, you're punching from

your feet. But by the way, when you watch, okay, I hate to dis bodybuilders again, but when you watch bodybuilder throw a punch, it's a, it's not, it's not coming from the bottom. You know what I mean? Exactly. And so, you know, martial arts was created by smaller people to be able to defend against larger, stronger people. And so it's learning how to use your body to maximal efficiency. And you're not going to achieve maximal efficiency if you're initiating from the shoulder, which is, you know, less than 10% of your entire body. You have to initiate from the ground up and utilize the ground reactive force towards coming up through your legs, transitioning through your hips, and then expressing itself out through the hand. And so, yes, I think the kettlebell does, because of its dynamic nature and you're moving through multiple planes of motion,

it does transfer more directly into becoming a more effective mover than a linear-based barbell program. Again, I'm not saying that kettlebells are better than barbells, but it's better for certain things. Yeah. Life. For three-dimensional interaction. Life. You're trying to be nice. I'm trying to make some people angry. Yeah. Well, I mean, with kind of along those lines,

I guess I'll be somewhat Devil's advocate, although I'm not to make some people angry. Yeah, well, I mean, with kind of along those lines, I guess I'll be somewhat devil's advocate, although I'm not good at this. But like, because training rooms are sort of catching up. But one of the arguments that we will see whenever we're talking about movements and stuff like kettlebells is, well, it seems to be working for like NFL players, right? The training rooms are always squatting, you know, if there was a a better way they would be doing it because they're putting millions behind these athletes mm-hmm for something like that it is like the heavy barbell movements just a necessity or are they just still kind of stuck in their old ways I think it's a combination and you know there was a

couple occasions it's been some, but I was able to provide training for a couple of NFL teams. Most recently was the San Francisco 49ers. I didn't have the opportunity to, this was a long time ago, it was back when I think Shanahan was the coach at that time. So it was like- Oh, the, well, I mean he's like, oh the his dad this was like 2000 and probably 2012 that I was I was out there

But I didn't have the opportunity to work directly with the players I worked with the strength coaches and the strength coaching staff, you know, and those guys work with the players so what I found as far as NFL is it is a corporate environment. And, um, there's a big difference between the younger strength coaches and the older strength coaches, cause the older strength coaches is, you know, they're tenured and most of the time they're not as open-minded to new ideas coming in. And there's only what, 32 of those jobs in the world. So the idea of some young guy coming in and with some information that maybe is good information,

but they don't want to be, it's like a university professor, right? They don't want to be replaced. The younger strength coaches are still hungrier and they're more looking for the best ideas out there. So they're going to be more likely to integrate that. So I think things are much better now. But as far as NFL, I mean, let's just look at things the way they are. First of all, those guys would be playing NFL regardless of the training programs that they're doing. Because there is this thing called genetics. Okay.

And it's like, um, you know, if your parent, if your dad was six foot five and your mom was six foot and they were professional athletes, you're going to be more likely to be big and strong and athletic. So it's like, um, I've seen guys at the high school level, it's like, okay, like you're going to play football. My kid's grandfather, he was a, he's a legend, a high school football coach, retired, but he was like one of the winningest high school coaches in San Diego of all time. More than 300 wins. And he had a lot of guys, you know, one year his

team was USA Today ranked number four in the country, but they were, cause all the one, two and three was like on the East coast and they don't really look at the West coast, but these guys could play with anybody. They had 28, 28 students went to division one scholarship on one of those years. But there's a funny story. There was a tuba player. He was playing tuba in the marching band. This kid was like six foot eight, 300 something pounds, you know, and he's like, coach Shaq, they call it. Coach Shaq is like, you're playing football. This is like as a, as a 10th grader. He went on to be in All-American University of Washington and he played I think 13, 14 years in the NFL.

A kid named Lincoln Kennedy. You know, so I mean, the point being is like, that guy was going to be in the NFL. Because he's six foot eight and he's 300, you know, and he's coordinated enough. They didn't find shoes with him, but they, he called one of his friends at the chargers and said, I need some shoes. So they gave him like an old pair of Louis cultures, Louis cultures cleats.

The culture is like an all pro guy back in the day with the chargers, you know? And so, I mean, um, the training methods are not the main factor at that level. Methods are not the main factor at that level. The main factor is basically their athletic propensity, which is they're born with that, you know, for the most part. And then in terms of why are they lifting barbells instead of kettlebells? Yeah, well, football is a game based on mass more so, you know, strength and speed. So the barbell is very appropriate for, you know, for like a lineman and a linebacker. I would also say the culture of the sport, the culture of the sport in terms of football,

like that weight room is filled with certain implements. Absolutely. In all high schools, in all colleges, in all pro rooms. It's one of the things where it's like, again, I'm not saying it's not good, I'm not saying it's not useful, but it's one of those things where it's like, I'm not, again, I'm not saying it's not good, I'm not saying it's not useful, but it's one of those things where if the culture is so strong with one thing that has seemed to work for these high level athletes,

why really spend your time trying to do something different? Because if a coach comes in, if a strength coach comes in and wants to try a few different things with these pro level athletes, it's like you're gonna test your ideas on these pros. What, we've been doing this with these pros for decades and they've been like mass, like they've been huge and strong and fast, you're gonna try these new things and waste our fucking time? You're not gonna see that. You're not gonna see any type of place open for that type of shit because it's like, this has worked for all of our teams for so long, we're going to keep fucking doing it.

It's not a lab. Yeah, it's not a lab. You know, it's a corporate environment and their investments. And really what the strength conditioning serves at the highest level of sports is to not let them get injured. To keep them on the playing field. And so it's... Killbells would be pretty great for that.

It would be great. And actually for like NFL example, I think the great best use is going to be more for mobility. For mobility and injury prevention. Not necessarily for strength. You know, because the barbell is perfect for that. But to develop a little bit more power endurance and to develop a lot more joint integrity and mobility.

To maybe avoid... There's too many injuries. Now football, I mean, that's understandable. It's a collision sport. It's inevitable that you're going to get injured in football if you play long enough. But for a lot of other sports like basketball, I think it would be a kettlebell would be a much more beneficial in terms of their training because those guys, they don't need to develop max strength. They need to develop a lot of joint integrity, a lot of stamina. Yeah. Oh. No, I was just going to say, like, just a quick, like, because when we went to the 49ers

facility, I mean, there's rows of, what are those called? Like the deadlift jacks, you know, like just rows with barbells, obviously rows of racks, you know, squat racks with the benches and everything, a couple machines, some turf and stuff. But like, as far as like movement stuff, there was just like one of those like bouncy, like mats. Like, I think it's for like tumbling and stuff. They had one of those in there.

And maybe just because like I wasn't really looking for it, but I don't remember seeing like a kettlebell in there. You know, like I just off the top of my head, obviously it's not good. This was like two years ago now. But man, yeah, especially with that team right now, they've been going through a lot of injuries. I think, first of all, when they replace coaches, they bring in a whole new staff. So you guys could have been developing something and then now that coach is gone.

It's a completely different culture. And I think that's another reason why the traditional method stays in place, because it would be very difficult to implement an entire new approach. And then the other thing is that kettlebells is technical, and the coaches don't have the expertise to really teach it. So it's like a barbell, well you just grip it and rip it. More so. Yeah. I mean they did have the Jerry Rice Hill.

That was pretty sick. Steep as fuck. That was like Roger Craig. All those guys, yeah. Yep. I wanted to ask you, one of the things you, populations that work with are people that have a lot of chronic pain. That's one thing that you talk about a lot. And how old are you, by the way?

I'm 55. 55, you're an amazing shape for 55, man. You're an amazing shape in general. So what do you notice, and when you're working with people, how are the kettlebells, or that tool, and what other tools do you use for people who have pain? Because, you know, one simple thing that I noticed a lot through the years is when a lot of people start just doing a kettlebell swing,

they're like, oh, my lower back, right? They feel in their lower back and some people avoid the kettlebell because they swing it and boom, they have lower back pain, right? So what can we do for that population? So when we're talking about pain, now we're getting into,

it goes very much beyond the physical components. You have to look at the emotional, the mental and emotional integration with the physical. And so it's a very deep journey that goes beyond just, okay, I'm going to get into shape. Because if you're just trying to get in shape, well, now it's just some kind of physical activity that's going to burn calories.

But when you're dealing with chronic pain, there's going to be an association of memories that are existing within the, that store themselves within the cells of the body, within the fascia of the body. And so it becomes much more personal and much more of a deep dive because it might even be more difficult for men and strong men that are used to like, you know, the idea of weakness. Like we do not entertain that, right?

So, so a lot of times guys when they're injured or they're hurt or they're in pain, they want to kind of cover that up. It's like, I'm not, you know, I don't get, I'm not weak, I'm strong and weakness is, you know, for sissies or whatever. So breaking through that barrier and, you know, the vulnerability of it is a big challenge. So as far as like movement medicine, because that's where I'm not a therapist, I'm a mover, I'm a coach. And so, you know, definitely kettlebells. If your lower back is hurting, well, there well, for one, the lower back is weak, but for two, you need to redirect your movement pattern.

So you're using your back and you need to use your glutes. And so a lot of times it's the body. So we're looking at the body and how we're moving the body. The kettlebell is a prop. The kettlebell is a handheld tool that's an extension of the body. It's not going to correct the movement. You have to correct the movement and now you're moving with the kettlebell in the correct manner.

And so other tools, first and foremost, the body and the breath are the most important tools. So what I say is that kettlebells is not for everyone. And there's no physical activity that's for everyone. Like not everyone can jump, not everyone can run, not everyone can even walk. Some people are in wheelchairs. Okay. So what are the universal things? Well, the universal qualities are the things that

everybody does and everybody must do. First and foremost is breathing. We all breathe and we all must breathe. And then secondarily, it's posture. We all must maintain posture. Now the posture may change but the principle of posture, well we're looking to be upright. We're looking to be upright and we're looking to have our center of mass situated over our base of support. That principle is present. Now your base of support can change. You can be on two legs, you can be on one leg, you can be on your knees, you can be seated, you can be on your belly, you can be on your back, you can be on your head.

That's still your base of support, it's what's connected to the ground. Regardless of the position, you want your center of mass evenly distributed over your base of support, and that would be a state of balance. And so... Head over foot. Head over foot, absolutely.

That's such a fundamental cue that is such an addition to the understanding because it takes out the unnecessary complexity. Yeah. And it's like, okay, well, head over foot, I can understand what that means and I can test it and I can see that it works. Exactly.

So yeah, that's a huge asset into the education of trainers and people. So as far as- Also, I do wanna mention, I'm really pumped that you mentioned the breath there because when you think about a kettlebell, sometimes I'll see somebody pick up a kettlebell and start swinging it and they're holding their breath.

Yes. And it's like, that's the interest, this is the interesting thing about what happens and the tendencies that people build when they start training with barbells. Because again, barbell training has its place, but when you brace your spine to do a squat, when you brace your spine to do a deadlift,

when you're doing these bracing patterns, people tend to hold their breath when they brace. You pick up a kettlebell, you're not supposed to be holding your breath, you're supposed to be breathing through that movement, right? And if you don't know how to breathe and now you're trying to hold your breath when doing this dynamic movement, yeah, you're gonna fuck yourself up, you know? And it's interesting though, because even when I lift with barbells now, I'm exhaling

when creating force. I'm actually in it. Like when I squat, I exhale coming up, I inhale exhaling when creating force. I'm actually in it, like when I squat, I exhale coming up, I inhale going down. You know what I mean? That's how I squat. Even no matter how heavy it is, I exhale coming down, or I exhale or inhale going down, exhale coming up.

My breath is continuous. And now that breathing pattern fills, goes into everything I do. Jiu-jitsu, I'm never holding my breath. I'm never holding my breath when lifting. I'm absolutely never holding my breath when I work through kettlebell. Absolutely, yep.

Yeah, we don't. Now, you know, the idea of no absolutes, there are exceptions. So that is the general rule. What would be the example where you would hold your breath? Well, if you're under maximal load at the most vulnerable position. So for example, you know, so creating that intra abdominal pressure is appropriate, but that's appropriate for heavy lifting.

We're not really doing that in kettlebell, you know? So the example of a kettlebell is if you had a really heavy squat in the bottom, you would maybe inhale and then hold through that bottom position to get it moving and then release. Or a heavy press at the bottom. But that's the exception. And generally in kettlebell, we're continuously breathing and we're always taking more breaths than reps.

So you're never doing like one rep, one breath. You're doing one rep, maybe two, maybe three, depending on the, you know, so the swing, it's not inhale, exhale. So we always focus on the exhale. And this is something I went to Russia in 2012 and I trained with a lot of their national team members and their coaches, best kettlebell lifters in the world. And one of the presenters there is the Russian exercise physiologist, the team doctor, a guy named Vladimir Tikhonov. And he explained that they did these testing on the athletes, on the kettlebell athlete. Now, his older Soviet Union ended like 91, but still at that time,

you know, the information's coming from the Soviet system. And during that time of the Soviet Union, most of their resources were going into the development of their sport. Because, you know, I love history and studying history, but the geopolitical aspect of that is interesting because during the Cold War, the US was, you know, putting a lot of resources into like the military and putting a lot of resource into the outer space program. And the Soviets after the 50s are like, we can't keep pace financially. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna pour our resources

into the sports and we're gonna kick their ass in the Olympics every four years. And that's what they were doing. The only sports was like basketball and track and field because they don't have a lot of black athletes in Russia. The US was dominant, but before the Soviet Union was over, everything, weightlifting, wrestling, you name it. And also competitive in track and field too, like in swimming. And we say, oh yeah, but they were doping. Yes.

But they were doing that better also, but everyone was doping. So they put a lot of their resources in every single sport. They would test these athletes. So in the kettlebell, they tested the athletes at rest. They tested them under load and what were they testing? They were testing their blood lactate levels. They were testing their with theate levels. They were testing with the respirometer to test the breathing patterns. They were testing the ECG, which is the electrocardiogram, the electrical activity of the heart,

and seeing how the body responds at rest and under stress and then developing the breathing pattern out of that. And so when you have the, like, especially with two kettlebells, when you have two kettlebells on your chest, and let's say you're doing 10 minutes of jerk, you can't take an inhale here because you're already winded and you know, you're not, the weight is compressing, so you have to, you have to forcefully exhale to create the inhale because it's an elastic quality of the diaphragm,

the elasticity, if you forcefully exhale, it's gonna create a reflex, like a balloon. Use your body to breathe. You don't actively like, you know, you just, yes, you use, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exhale to, yeah, so it's not when you take your last breath, it's when you take your last exhale. And no more inhale comes.

That's when you're going to be dead. As long as you can exhale, now the inhale is free. It's like you invest in down and the up is free. You invest in the exhale and the hit. So if I... It automatically... So that's the technique that we use in kettlebell. We never... A lot of people, they go overhead. They're like,

not a lot, but if you're untrained, okay. And you hold the breath. No, when you're overhead, you're still breathing in that static position. It's so funny that you mentioned this because, like, I usually do a lot of sprinting. I don't like doing long distance runs, but I've started to do more distance runs just to improve that ability. Because I think I've had traumatic experiences with longer runs. When I was younger, I was always the fastest, but I always had the worst endurance. I'd have asthma attacks and shit. And I think those are more so not because

I didn't have a good endurance, but more so because of anxiety. I would build that anxiety of doing distance runs and Cooper tests for soccer and shit. So as I've been doing more distance runs, I've noticed that what I'll do is like, it'll be like a four cadence where I'm inhaling for three steps and then on the fourth step,

it's just like an exhale, then I'll inhale for three steps, but I'm not actually exhaling or I'm not trying to exhale. I just like the exhale happen and just, and then the inhale is like, and every like one, two, three, exhale, one, two, three, exhale. And I've been finding that, whoa, this is like easier to do this distance. It's like the breathing's easier. It happens automatically. And when you just mentioned when the exhale happens,

the inhale's free, that's what I've been feeling. I'm like, well, this is really cool. So it clicks. It makes sense. You're feeling it from the bottom. You're feeling it from the bottom. And it just happens, right? It just happens.

It's so cool. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, the breathing is the first thing and that's the thing that everybody has to do. So if you want to improve our techniques and we want to improve our life, improve our breathing. And now it's, you know, rising tide floats all boats. So you build it from the bottom and the more effective your breathing is, the more effective you're going to be in recovering,

the more effective you are in being able to direct your effort. Posture is the other thing. And posture is maybe difficult to quantify, but what we can easily quantify is bad posture. So good posture is, it's not bad posture. Right? So it's like, okay, if I'm here and I'm... Okay, I know that's bad posture. Now, I used to see it more clearly like that.

And then a couple of years ago, I started training a guy online that has cerebral palsy. The friend of mine, I'd known him for like 20 years, but he reached out to me a couple of years ago. It's like, I really want to learn the Xingyi. You really want to learn this specific Kung Fu style that I was, you know, that I was brought up in. And so I started teaching him Xinghing-I kung fu online. And I noticed it's like, okay, his body is like this.

So in the past, when I was dealing with, you could say more able-bodied, you would correct the person and say, oh no, put your foot here. Don't stand like that, stand like this. But with him, I quickly realized, no, I can't. I'm not going to tell him he's got to put that foot there because his body doesn't do that.

So instead, what I learned is, okay, how do I teach him in a way that takes into account what his physiology is and let's make him stronger and more effective in that position. You know, and so bad posture isn't even a... It's not a specific metric that we can... It's individual for each person. But the mentality is like, okay, all the plants and all the flowers will rise up to greet the sun.

And that's how we should be as well. You know, so there's cues you can say, okay, shoulders back, chest up, right? But that's more of like a... That's a contortion. Right? And so the posture should be through the alignment of the bones more so than through the muscles. And then the muscles are just sitting like a meat suit. Yep. Yep.

Okay. For years on this podcast, we've been talking about the benefit of barefoot shoes. And these are the shoes I used to use back in like 2017, 2018, my old Metcons. They are flat, but they're not very wide and they're very stiff and they don't move. That's why we've been partnering with

and we've been using Vivo barefoot shoes. These are the Modest Strength shoe because not only are they wide, I have wide-ass feet and so do we here on the podcast especially as our feet have gotten stronger, but they're flexible. So when you're doing certain movements like let's say you're doing jumping or you're doing split squats or you're doing movements where your toes need to flex and move, your feet are able to do that and perform in this shoe, allowing them to get stronger over time. And obviously they're flexible. So your foot's allowed to be a foot. And when you're doing all types of exercise, your feet will get

stronger, improving your ability to move. Andrew, how can they get the hands on these? Yes, head to vivobarefoot.com slash power project and enter the code that you see on screen to save 20% off your entire order. Again, that's at vivobarefoot.com slash power There's so many other things I want to talk about, but I think this kind of brings into something we were just working on in there, the push hands practice. You've been doing that. I, like David showed that to me a few years back and then I went back down to Wech Method this past year and he showed me more. And I noticed it immediately helped me understand the bone alignment against somebody else,

along with like being able to shift weight and push, you know, push an opponent's weight in another direction. But the bone alignment is like when I apply that to my Jiu-Jitsu, things have become quite different. So I want to ask you this, the push hands practice, what's the power in that? You've been doing that for a long time. What have you noticed? Yeah. Also, by the way, I don't know if people know you are a jiu-jitsu brown belt. Yeah. You've been doing that for a while.

Yeah, I've been training jiu-jitsu. Next month will be my seven year anniversary. Let's go. Nice. Yeah, and I love the jiu-jitsu. And actually today, this morning when I got here, that was the first time I've really done push hands in years. I played with David a little bit when he was getting into it, but it was part of my Kung Fu training. Like, you know, first 20 years, from like 12 to my early 30s.

That kind of just moved away from it. I moved away from like formal martial art training. That's when I got into the kettlebell and I started traveling the world teaching kettlebells. Finally, I came back to the martial arts through the Jiu-Jitsu. So doing that with you guys this morning, you know, was really interesting because I have a different viewpoint now as being a Jiu-Jitsu player and have a different appreciation for that, which I maybe didn't have the first time through. So the idea of the...

And most people don't realize Tai Chi is a martial art. But what occurred... People usually look down on Tai Chi. Well, what occurred with Tai Chi is that there was a guy named Chen Man-Ching, who this is coming out of the era where they used to say the sick man of China, because during the early part of the 20th century, there was the opium wars.

And the British were basically bringing opium. Well, they were basically pushing opium into China. They were weakening China through getting every... And China had a massive opium addiction. The men had these like opium dens and they would smoke, you know, opium and just waste... It would waste your body and they would become weak and feeble. And so this kind of like depowered the population. So it made them very easy to invade.

So there's a saying, the sick man of China. So Chen Man-ching was a Tai Chi practitioner that realized like, Tai Chi is what we're going to use to help these people regain their strength and regain their health. And that was what was taught in the West. And he came to New York, and so they call it the yang style tai chi. The tai chi that was taught was basically, there's no martial art.

It's the qigong, it's the breathing, and it's relaxed, and you're moving very gently. And that type of movement is extremely therapeutic. It's very beneficial for the nervous system, reducing the stress, but there's no martial technique in it. But if you go back to older times, the Tai Chi was a fighting art. And that doesn't really exist too much anymore because there's very few people that, as things became modernized that the old way

that the Chinese culture traditionally is very different than the West is they keep secrets to themselves. Yep. They don't want foreigners to know. Right. Exactly. And even that each other, like you'll teach your oldest son. That's how it would work. So if you go like in Chinatown and the different cities here, if you go into like the Chinese herb store, it's going to be the old man and then his son is an herbalist. And they pass it on from one generation to the next. But, you know, so the thing about push hands is,

as part of the martial art training, it's teaching to develop the sensitivity. Because you're sticking. People are probably more familiar with Wing Chun because of Bruce Lee, that was his foundational art was Wing Chun. And they have a practice they call the sticky hands. So it has similar qualities of the push hands. The idea is you're touching and then you're using your hands like antennas or feelers to feel the person's weight shifting. And then so you're trying to integrate the shifting of your weight,

the turning of your body and the extension of the arms. And through the hands, it's like if we're insects, the hands and the fingers are the antennas. And so you're learning to, they call it feeling sense. You're learning to feel through the touch. Oh, where's your balance? Oh, he's overextended here, so boom. And so the saying is like four ounces moves a thousand pounds. You don't want to use a lot of effort.

You want to find the center of balance and redirect it with a small amount of effort. And interestingly enough, that's ideally a high level of Jiu-Jitsu as well. In my opinion, Jiu-Jitsu is like the modern expression of that very high level martial art where it's like literally, and you don't find this in other martial arts, literally the small, weak guy can beat the strong muscular athletic guy if his technique is much superior. Think of a Musumechi, Mika Galvao, Kyle Terra, right? Yeah, I mean, Musumechi is like 140 pounds. You know, you wouldn't think, oh this guy, but he's gonna stick to you like glue, you know, and before you know it, he's

behind you choking you out or whatever. So you know, that's a high level of sensitivity. It's not based on being stronger than that guy. It's not based on overpowering them or muscling them. It's based on flowing into the gap. You know, we call it in the Hiberos style, it's the flow pressure finish. You gotta flow into the gap before you can apply the pressure.

You can't just pressure. Cause that's gonna be telegraphed. You have to flow and now when you're in the position, now you can pressure and then that pressure creates the openings and the opportunities for the finish. I think it's, cause you know, when I've mentioned Push Hands, I've put it up, or I've seen comments of people that comment on it, a lot of people,

especially here in the West, they'll look at that and they'll be like, oh, this is a McDojo thing, it's not real martial arts, go box, blah, blah, blah. And I do, I get what they're saying, but I find it so unfortunate because, you know, when David was showing it to me initially, right, David was beating me over and over and over again. I'm like, what the fuck am I missing here?

And then David goes ahead and he explains to me about finding your opponent's center. And when you find your opponent's center, it's what I feel is it's like when you are doing a perfect barbell deadlift. You're not ripping the bar off the ground with your muscles. You're getting your body in the perfect leverage position where you just need to hinge the bar upwards. It doesn't take energy. It's because of your leverage. Push hands, you're finding that that anatomical leverage with your bones and your opponent's body where you call it the center.

It's the center. But you're able to stack that, right? And then when you understand that concept, and then when David, when I understood the concept and I started doing push hands again, he couldn't beat me. Because like, you can feel that difference versus just like moving around, right?

And then when I apply that to Jiu Jitsu, it's the same thing. It makes such a big difference. Because finding your opponent's center in Jiu-Jitsu is just finding perfect leverage with your bones against your opponent's bones. That's all it is. And you'll see like the high level, like now that I watch Jiu-Jitsu and I watch Mikey, and I watch all these other guys, I'm like, that's why people can't pass their guard. Because they're just, when they're passing or when they're on bottom, they're stacking

their bones in such a strong way where they're not using energy to do these things. But that's why Helios said that Jiu-Jitsu is a game of leverage. But he really meant like leverage of the bones. It's not just like positions, it's leverage. Yes, the Archimedes principle, the lever. The lever, yes. Exactly.

Right? And that's why I think this push hands is powerful for many reasons. Helps you learn how to seed weight so like you can move past weight and flow with it. Helps you find your opponent's setter. It's a low intensity practice. Doesn't beat you up. That you can do every single day. And you can train that feeling capacity. Because I want to train jujitsu every day, but if I do, I'll hurt myself.

I won't be able to last. But I could do push hands a few days, jujitsu a few days, and I'm still improving my ability as a martial artist with this low intensity practice. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome insight. You're going to give a lot of credibility to the push hands because of your athleticism, because you're a master you know, master world champion

and you know, you're black belt in jujitsu. So it's like, the naysayer is gonna see your resume and be like, okay, well, maybe I should listen to this guy versus like the skinny old man that, you know, he looks at it amazing. I wish that wasn't the case though, man. I wish you like that, like, I feel like that's so- We can't judge a book by its cup by its cover but we do. We do. You know and first impressions last.

So you know you're you're sitting in a situation where you're going to become a very influential spokesperson in that and the most important part that makes it work is the skin in the game. The fact that you're doing it and you're liking it and you're integrating it. Now you're living it. So you're coming from that. You know, so I mean, yeah, definitely like that's a huge opportunity to share more about the push hands and I think draw people that maybe normally would just kind of sneer at it. I think I'll probably like two or three more questions, but like, you know, when you're talking about that

and you're talking about Tai Chi and like, even when people in the West think about Kung Fu, which you've done a lot, they think about, oh, that's not, that doesn't really do it much. Because, you know, people have discovered like there's obviously wrestling and boxing, et cetera. But, you know, what are your thoughts in terms of like the Eastern and the Western view on the martial arts? Because it feels like when I hear people here talk about martial arts, it's pure brutality.

It's pure effectiveness of brutalizing an opponent. When we and at the end of the day, when we do think about martial artists, it is truthfully like the base level is teaching someone how to truly defend themselves in a situation, right? But then there's an other aspect where it's just like, Tai Chi is just a healthy movement. You mentioned it's actually healthy for the body. And if you can kind of go into why it's so healthy,

because you see these videos of people in China and all these other areas, just people in parks, 50, 60 people all moving fluidly and doing this. And it's just like, you can see how healthy that is for them. Right? So what are your thoughts? Yeah. So I want to look at things from the lifespan perspective versus from where I am right now. Because where you're at when you're 20 is going to be different than where you're at when you're 60,

in terms of your priorities and how you're selecting, how you spend your time, whether it's exercise and so on. And so even the martial artist who's like the most powerful, you know, like there was one master, somebody asked him about Bruce Lee. He said, oh Bruce Lee very power. Bruce Lee dead. He's like Bruce Lee very power.

Bruce Lee dead. You know, so again, the point is is that your training methods, like are your training methods gonna harm you to where, yeah, it's just very effective when you're 30 years old, but now you're 50 and you're broken. You know, like Muay Thai fighters. Those guys are like crippled by the time they're 40 most of the time. They're the baddest dudes in the world when they're 20.

So if you look at it from the lifespan point of view, what I say is like if you can't be doing it when you're in your 60s, you shouldn't be doing it when you're in your 20s. Because it's not sustainable. So, and I'm old enough now where it's like, I know exactly what I can continue to do, you know, and I don't do the things that, you know, that I know I'm not going to be able to keep doing. And that hurt me and don't feel good. So I would say that in terms of the Eastern and the Western, first of all, the techniques were refined and perfected from the East.

And so in the West, what we do is we are great curators. We take information that exists and we figure out how do we use it or how do we make it better or how do we change it and how do we apply it. And so we're very practical, but in terms of like the deep wisdom and the test of time, that's coming more from the Eastern methods. So in terms of like the most of the martial arts in the West, I call it martial sport. It's not martial art. There's exceptions. Like I think probably the great spokesperson for that in the UFC and it's George St. Pierre

because he's a martial artist, but that's the exception. Most of them are fighters, right? And so martial means fighting and art is the other component. So it's the martial art. It's not just the martial. The art, I call that the human expression. So the art is how you express your knowledge, how you express your skills, your personality, your worldview, all of those things are reflected in the art. And you know, the complete martial art contains the fighting art.

It doesn't exist solely of the fighting arts. And so in Kung Fu, I studied, we studied fighting techniques, we studied medicine, we studied massage, we studied bonesetting, we studied the use of herbal medicines, studying meditation, sitting meditation, standing meditation, we studied the qigong, the breathing exercise, we study the weaponry, even study, you know, the other sciences, the astrology, and you know, so that's the martial art. It has the concept of... The Greeks had this as well.

The Greeks have something that we call it in America, the scholar athlete. It comes from the Greek model of like, athletics and the sciences together. So in the East, they called it the five excellences. So the five excellences was like warfare. So archery was one, but archery was on horseback. So it's learning how to shoot the bow and arrow on horseback. Calligraphy, you know, painting, different types of art forms. And, you know, in the West, it's like, okay, mathematics, literature, right? Plus the Olympics or the sports, the track and field sports.

And so I think that that's missing in the West is the idea of the whole being. Because a lot of these guys, you see them at the end of their career and they're broken. They're broken and it's like, you spend all your time training your body, but did you cultivate your mind? Did you cultivate your life assets, your skills?

What about your relationships? So we have all these things, and I've always admired the masters that you can be a master of one thing, but you could be an abject failure at every other important thing. I'm not criticizing it because most people never achieve mastery in only one thing, in even one thing. Just to do that

is incredible. But could you take that mastery and understand what are the principles, what are the repeatable signs? And can we apply that to other things? Can I become a master in my business? Can I become a master in my relationship? Can I be a master as a father? Can I be a master as a fighter? Can I be a master at other things? I want to learn how to dance. Can I be great at that? So we can't be great at everything, but we can apply principles of mastery to the important things. And use that to inform our development. So I think that's in the Eastern part, the holistic approach of, you know, because if you think about if you're a martial artist and you don't know how to heal,

you're like a mechanic that can take apart the engine, but you can't put it back together. And learning the healing gives you a deeper sensitivity and understanding of the physiology. Because if you just know how to break it, but now if you study how can I mend it, now I see it from the other side. So you're actually gonna be even more effective at breaking it because you know how to put it together.

So you're gonna be better at taking it apart. It's reverse engineering. Because you know how to put it together. So you're gonna be better at taking it apart. Yeah. It's reverse engineering. Yeah. You know, the cool thing is, man, you're a brown belt. You started jujitsu at 48. You're 55 now. Like, even when I started jujitsu, it was maybe nine years ago. Yeah, nine years ago. I was 23.

My goal has always been to do it until I'm old. It wasn't just to do jujitsu until I managed to get a black belt and then stop doing it at 35 or 40, which a lot of people end up because they have the everyday Baha'i the mindset. Yes. You know what I mean? I have like several clients that are like 30-something years old, and they're like, man, I love Jiu Jitsu, but I keep getting injured.

And I'm like... It doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't. You know? And it's like I train every day. I don't get injured. It's not that I haven't got injured. It's not that I can't get injured.

But this was my last condo. So they didn't have anybody in my weight division. I was like, I was 158. And I'm Master 5. You don't have a lot of guys in Master 5. That man looks big. He's like, he's in the 222. Holy shit.

So there was only three Master 5s. Yeah. So, you know, like three days before, they're like, okay, you can change the visions. So there was no Master 4s. There was no, I could have went down to Master 2, and there was a couple lightweights, which was like 168 and under, which is my... Or I could have stayed at Master 5, and there was two guys in the 222. So the cool thing is this guy...

He outweighed me by like 60 pounds, but he was only a little bit taller. So I was able to use my collar tie, which is the benefit of the kettlebell. Yeah. And it worked out, it worked out, you know, pretty well. So this was, I think, I think this one is the finals. And this was JJ World League. So it's double elimination that they have in that. So actually the first round, he beat me on points.

Okay. But then I saw after the first round, he beat me on points. But then I saw after the first round, he was exhausted. He was laying on the ground. And you get like five minutes or so between, and then there was like another round, because Masters is five minute rounds. There was another match like after us and then we were up again.

And there was two guys, but the other guy didn't show. So there was just me and him. So then the second one, like, I'm like, I got this guy. He's tired. You know? And like, oh, I think the second round I beat him like 6-0. And then this is the finals. And I think I got him 4-0 here. So it was... Because I felt like for me, at my, you know, where I'm at with Jiu Jitsu, Like for me, at my, you know, where I'm at with Jiu Jitsu, I have, for me, it would be more, I don't want to say more challenging, more difficult to compete against a guy my weight that's much younger, than it would be to compete against a guy my age that's heavier.

Because it's like, if you don't, if you can't overpower me in the first two minutes and you're trying to use your strength, that's it. Because once you're tired, you're dead. My sensei, Sal Hidaro, he says, you know, he's my inspiration for, you know, for competition. His mindset is one of the best of... But, you know, it's like, he says, uh, if you think you're late, if you're late, you use muscle. If you use muscle, you get tired. If you're tired, you die.

So it's like, don't get tired. You know, an interesting thing, and I have one more thing I want to ask you after this, but an interesting thing is that there isn't a problem with building muscle for jujitsu or being strong or, that's not a bad thing. But the thing, if you're someone who is stronger or has more muscle that's coming into jujitsu, you gotta try to shift your mind as if you were weaker.

Because I noticed that guys that generally have a lot of muscle and that are really strong, their technique is shit because they can get away with a lot of BS. And they can get away with it with their training partners, but when they end up going with somebody that's actually good and has good technique, it's in their weight class, they get cooked. Because they're just relying on their sheer athleticism, brute force, and muscle. And it's not bad, but if you have that, but then you have elite level technique, that's a dangerous combination.

But I think it's hard for those guys, because it was hard for me in the beginning to kind of just like, purposefully not use all the force that you could use. And try to see how can I make this more efficient. Where I don't have to use all of this, but I can have better technique. That's the drawback. And that's why most guys who are bigger won't have good jiu-jitsu because they're just relying on their gifts.

I wouldn't call it gifts. They're relying on their strengths. Attributes, yes. They're relying on their attributes because it takes a lot of training to build that muscle and strength. But the funny thing is, is it can actually make your athletic ability as a grappler worse. Yes, it is. And I had a, you know, big challenge, like, you know, because I'm not a big guy, but I'm strong for my size. And I was using so much athleticism or so much physicality for the,

even to some degree still, but now almost seven years, it's like I'm better at just relaxing and flowing more. But it took me such a long time to start to kind of understand that, of just trying outwork the person. And yeah, but that is, you know, the people that usually learn the best are like small women. They learn technique right away because it's like they know from day one, I'm not going to overpower or muscle

this person. So I better figure this out, you know, how to move in the right position. And, you know, so you're right. Like it's almost like we have to switch. We have to switch the flip the switch to where it's like, okay, I don't have any muscle now. I don't have any strength. And so I got to move in a way that I'm not using my physicality. My training partner, Julian, he's a black belt and he's, he's always been someone that like, when I got in there And I started realizing I got a shift

I started looking at him because he was like 160 and he's a strong dude He has muscle, but he just his technique was so fluid that I was just like I need to I need to make my body Move like his body. Yeah, and then by doing that that changed everything and then he's smiling the whole time He's smiling the whole time. It's fun to roll with I Had us pull up this video because this is a- Padlock. It's stone lock. Stone key.

And the cool thing is that this is something that has been done for centuries over there. Right, right. And they're lifting, they're swinging, but they're also juggling this thing around. So my question to you is like, first off, it's cool that this has been something that's been a thing, but what is your, how do you feel about, you've been doing

kettlebells for a long, how do you feel about juggling? Juggling's awesome. For anybody listening, it looks like they're throwing around a cinder block with a handle. Essentially what it looks like. Yeah, it is. We used to make those, like we had a mold, you put like a rebar through the handle

and then put it in the mold and pour it in the concrete. Called them stone keys or stone padlock. Yeah, juggling is a fantastic act. I don't do a lot of it because I'm always training inside. I have in my house a gym set up and it's not like, it's not appropriate for dropping kettlebells that it would break the floor. I have mats and stuff but it's not all rubberized, you know. And it could bounce and hit the window. So I like the juggling, but I'm just not in the environment where

I have the freedom to do a lot of juggling. And for me, it's like the convenience of the kettlebell is one of its greatest assets. If I have to like put it in the car and go drive to the park to do it, I'm probably not going to do it. Because I can just walk into the next room and do what I want to do. And it's like right there. So the convenience of it. But yeah, juggling is a great activity for the hand foot, eye coordination. And my son's really good at the juggling.

So yeah. It's like, man, learning about the stone lock. I think I learned that about that last year after I started juggling. Nice. Yeah. It's like, man, learning about the stone lock, I think I learned that about that last year after I started juggling. You know, as far as a martial artist, one of the really cool things that it's been beneficial for is like, again, the following of that weight, but then flowing after, like,

cause like, yeah, you follow the weight with swings, you follow the weight with snatches, but when you're juggling a bell, you're redirecting force in all these different directions. The rope flow is gonna really inform the juggling as well, because it opens up the quadrants. It has. Like the diagonals.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just curious on your thoughts since you're like you're an OG when it comes to kettlebells. Yeah, it's, and I think the kettlebell, actually, I prefer the kettlebell than the stone lock, because the kettlebell gives you the hand insertion. The stone lock, you can flip it, but you can't clean it. So it's a little bit more limited.

All right. Cool. Andrew, you got anything else? No, that was great. Thank you so much. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. So where can people find you?

So best way to find me is my YouTube is the IKFF channel. Okay. And Instagram, it's my name is Steve Cotter, IKFF. That's the best way I have... Your signature kettlebells, man, from Ziva, man. I have the Laco bells. The Laco bells so far have been my favorite kettlebells to tell. They're nice.

Versus like the bells of steel and other bells. They're nice. But then I tried that, I bought that Ziva Bell, the Steve Cotter. Yeah, absolutely. It's just as good, if not better, than those Eleko Bells. Thank you. And I have been able to find a bell that can compare to those two. Thanks so much.

So the only bells I suggest to people are the Ziva Bells or those Eleko Bells. Actually the Ziva Bells, the Steve Cotter kettlebells, from what I'm hearing from all the top guys, that's the best bell for juggling. I'm not surprised. Yeah, like Daring's using it. Yeah. So, because when I had it designed and I was consulting with Dezeva about, you know, how

we were going to do it, I asked them to put the center of mass higher, a little bit higher towards the handle. Normally the lower, like if you were to trace a circumference around the diameter. The bells of steel bells. The southern hemisphere is usually has more weight. In mine, there's more weight in the northern hemisphere than the other ones.

So it makes the flipping really nice. Yeah. Yeah. So it turned out, that wasn't what I was thinking at, but that's how it turned out. Thank you so much, man. No, seriously, it's a beautiful bell to throw around. Yeah, it is nice. Like artistically, I think the color pops really nice.

I'm really happy about that. Yeah, this thing looks incredible. Yeah, so that's my signature bell there. You guys, and haven't bought bells in many years, but I've heard from several people, they're also very good price compared to other brands. That's my signature bell there. You guys haven't bought bells in many years, but I've heard from several people they're also very good price compared to other brands. So you get a beautiful bell for cheaper than most.

Check it out. Ziva USA for everyone in North America. And yeah, so that's the Steve Cotter bell. The other way they can find me is I have a free email program, which I created a few months ago. It's helping people lay some foundational understanding if they're dealing with chronic pain. So it's called the Pain-Free Longevity Blueprint.

And if you just put Pain-Free Longevity Blueprint, painfreelgevityblueprint.com, there's a place where you can enter your email, and then you'll start getting emails from me, and this lays some really good information about if you're dealing with any type of chronic pain. Basically, I came to this sharing my experience because I was in chronic back pain a little over a decade ago and I figured out how to heal myself. So I'm sharing, you know, those insights. So those are the best ways they can they can find me either Instagram, YouTube or through the pain free longevity blueprint. Perfect. Alright, hope you all start turning the kettlebells. This is amazing. Strength

is never weakness. Weakness never strength. Catch y'all later.