Mark Bell's Power Project - Kratom: The Scapegoat For Self-Inflicted Harm? Alex Karp || MBPP Ep. 1075

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

In episode 1075, Alex Karp from Etha Botanicals, Mark Bell, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza talk about everything you need to know about Kratom from dosages to effects to why it has a bad reputation. Watch Psyched.Substance video referenced in today's episode: https://youtu.be/LOnJhhaaQO8?si=V_SVj2CRXg9heYjZ More info on Etha: https://www.ethanaturals.com/   Official Power Project Website: https://powerproject.live Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw   Special perks for our listeners below!   🍆  Natural Sexual Performance Booster 🍆  ➢https://usejoymode.com/discount/POWERPROJECT Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!   🚨 The Best Red Light Therapy Devices and Blue Blocking Glasses On The Market! 😎 ➢https://emr-tek.com/ Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!   👟 BEST LOOKING AND FUNCTIONING BAREFOOT SHOES 🦶 ➢https://vivobarefoot.com/powerproject   🥩 HIGH QUALITY PROTEIN! 🍖  ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save up to 25% off your Build a Box ➢ Piedmontese Beef: https://www.CPBeef.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150   🩸 Get your BLOODWORK Done! 🩸  ➢ https://marekhealth.com/PowerProject to receive 10% off our Panel, Check Up Panel or any custom panel, and use code POWERPROJECT for 10% off any lab!   Sleep Better and TAPE YOUR MOUTH (Comfortable Mouth Tape) 🤐  ➢ https://hostagetape.com/powerproject to receive a year supply of Hostage Tape and Nose Strips for less than $1 a night!   🥶 The Best Cold Plunge Money Can Buy 🥶  ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!   Self Explanatory 🍆  ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 Pumps explained:      ➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements!   ➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!   Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://www.PowerProject.live ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject   FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell   Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ UNTAPPED Program - https://shor.by/untapped ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en   Follow Andrew Zaragoza & Get Podcast Guides, Courses and More ➢ https://pursuepodcasting.com/iamandrewz   #PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell #FitnessPodcast #markbellspowerproject

I've been vilifying, you know, I've been demonizing this plant and it really doesn't deserve it. What do you think that some of the negativity comes from? Deaths that were assumed to be kratom. It was not only kratom. It was a coping mechanism. I was taking it so that I can continue keeping things the same and not face them. Because facing them was terrifying. What's a decent, like, dosage? People on average consume somewhere between one to five grams of kratom for a single dose. Whatever happens to you is your responsibility.

It's not the responsibility of this. If you choose to drink six of these, don't blame Kratom. I'll just flat out say I've been addicted to it before. I like to utilize it for running. When I'm pairing those two things together, I'm kind of having a party. And I like it when I do jujitsu, but that's the thing, it feels too good sometimes.

If you guys have been enjoying the content we've been bringing here on The Power Project, consider leaving us a review on Spotify and Apple. We've had podcasts with people from Functional Patterns to Ben Patrick to Jack Cruz, who roasted us on air, but we did that for you, to bring you some of the best information in fitness. We're learning along with you,

and leaving a review with how you dig the podcast is really going to be something that helps the best information in fitness. We're learning along with you and leaving a review with how you dig the podcast is really gonna be something that helps the podcast move forward. So if you can leave us a review there and enjoy the rest of the show. So Alex, great to have you on the show today. We're gonna do deep dive on kratom and probably get into some other stuff too,

maybe some kava. Thank you so much for the plant, for the kratom plant. I think it's important that we keep this thing alive. So how do we keep this kratom plant alive? Kratom traditionally likes a lot of heat, a lot of humidity and a lot of water and nutrients. What about singing to it? I think that's important, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's in general, I think the energy we give off and things we have around us, we get a lot from plants and nature and we kind of give that back, that positive energy. I think it would definitely help it. I got a song here for it. Play that for the plant. It's not growing, Alex. I don't understand what's happening. Anyway, anyway. Is kratom safe? That's what a lot of people wanna know.

Kratom in its natural form, as long as it's only kratom, not adulterated, not contaminated, seems very safe. And this came from, the FDA actually just did a single ascending dose study, and they've not published this yet, but it has been kind of made available to the American Kratom Association. Wow, the FDA?

The FDA. The study on kratom? Yes. That's great. It's amazing. And what they'd found was that, so they took 40 people and they broke them up into different cohorts. And they essentially wanted to see how much kratom would

someone have to consume before there was an adverse event? So they gave people the protocol to consume more and more Kratom, up to 12 grams of Kratom in a five minute period. Wow. So this is 30 capsules traditionally, I mean, it's 24 capsules. And out of all of that study, they found that two people out of the 40

had some slight nausea and vomiting, even at that 12 gram dose. So their conclusion is that kratom seems to be well tolerated at all doses. Where do you think the negativity spawned from? Because when I first got into utilizing kratom and then later got into making some kratom with your company, Etha,

most of the research I did was like, hey man, stay away from this by all means. Like don't, you know, and my research is me using Google. But when I, you know, just at first glance, you know, it would say that people are dying from it and all kinds of stuff. And then later I kind of found out that some of that was because my understanding was that some people were like dry scooping this stuff and kratom is like cinnamon. It's like, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't.

It's something that you're going to choke on if you just try to spoon it without mixing it into anything. And then some of the other things I heard is that people were mixing grams and grams and grams of it, like in a blender and making smoothies out of it, like 10, 20 grams. And so, yeah, what do you think that some of the negativity comes from maybe just the misuse of it? Yes, I would say the most prevalent cases came from around 2016.

And this is when the FDA was saying that kratom was very dangerous. And it was really spurred from six deaths that occurred in Norway or Finland in kind of the Nordic region. But what we found is that once they finally tested the actual product, they found that those products were contaminated or adulterated with O-desmotramadol, which is the precursor to tramadol, a known opiate that if you consume too much of tramadol, it will suppress breathing and unfortunately lead to death.

And so it's been a lot of that misinformation of when kratom is mixed with other known opiates that can cause death or other known drugs, that's when we see the problem. But on further review of testing, anytime that there were kratom or deaths that were assumed to be Kratom, it was not only Kratom. There was other compounds or substances in that person's body that was

most likely the actual cause. And Kratom is just kind of wrapped up in that misinformation because it was kind of, you know, in the wrong place at the wrong time, so to speak. Another big red flag that you see from some people is, I mean, I've used creative, I dig it. I don't use it all the time because I never wanted to become, I guess, I never wanted to feel that I absolutely needed it. But I do know people and I see these comments a lot where people are like, you know, I started using it, then I started using it more and more and more.

And then they almost get in a cycle where they can't go a day without using it. And when they stop, they start getting withdrawals, etc. So is this one of those things that people need to be careful with it? Do some people have a more addictive nature towards creatine than others? What is it that you've noticed? I mean, I think so. So there is a lot of complications around addiction in general. I mean, even common things like food or sex

or other normal behaviors, people can become addicted to it for a variety of reasons. I mean, I think this is commonly where there was a study done in the seventies where we were a scientist took rats. And so typically the way we analyze if a compound is addictive, we'll take an isolated rat, put it in a cage and give it access to the compound or the drug

that we're trying to test. And then if that rat takes that drug and then keeps drinking more or more and more of it, then that kind of leads to this addiction side. But what was fascinating was that when the scientists took those same rats and same compounds, but put them in what's called like rat park, where it was like a more natural living situation.

So the rats had other rats to associate with, to socialize with, they had other tubes and systems to play with. That level of addiction of that single compound was much lower. And so that's where addiction is complicated because what am I trying to maybe suppress in my life or what other pain am I trying to cover up

can then lead to addiction for any kind of compound. I understand that. And then, but kratom itself, yes, is there is a habit forming or kratom can be addictive, just like caffeine is addictive, nutmeg, chamomile, there are substances that are habit forming and addictive. But kratom itself generally does not lead to abuse when it is used in its natural form and only used as kratom.

When it's mixed with some other substances, there can be a higher potential for abuse. I would say what I've noticed my own experience and I'll just flat out say I've been addicted to it before to the point where, you know, I'm like, I like to utilize it for running, you know? And I've gotten to the point before where I'm like, I'm gonna go out and run and, you know, I'm just gonna hit this kratom up before I run. I would utilize it like a pre-workout.

And when I did that, what happened was is over time, I would kind of associate the feeling of creatinine like with the run. So I think that, you know, I think we could probably, you know, get, you know, we could split hairs on like how addictive, how non addictive, you know, is it a drug, is it an opioid? And we can throw some negative connotations around it.

Or I think we can kind of look at it maybe in a different way of like, it just puts you in a really good mood and it puts you in a really good space. And so for me, when I utilize it for running, that's what it's doing. But because it does that, because the run ends up being, running for me is enjoyable anyway,

with or without kratom. But when I'm pairing those two things together, the maybe dopamine hit that I get from kratom. But when I'm pairing those two things together, the maybe dopamine hit that I get from kratom, the dopamine hit that I'm getting from running, when I start to kind of stack these dopaminergic things together, I'm kind of having a party. And I think that is the part that I would caution a lot of people against that.

So, blending your kadum and your workouts and really starting to associate it with like a particular thing that you love to do. You love to do jujitsu. And I like it when I do jujitsu, but that's the thing, it feels too good sometimes. Right, right, right. So I think it's just a healthy practice,

I think to be mindful. I don't even know, I'm not even aware of if that's even dangerous. But in my own head, I'm like, it makes the most sense for me to treat caffeine and kratom, alcohol, any of these things, kind of just put them in a category where, hey, let's just kava, same thing.

I would just say, let's just be careful with this and just make sure it's not something you're gonna like slip into, where every day just to be happy and just to be excited, I need any kind of drug. Yes, absolutely. I mean, that's a good practice to your point. And I think that's the, I mean, there are,

people will talk about what's a potentiator for kratom, and that's a potentiator meaning, okay, I like the effects of kratom. How do I amplify the effects of it? And personally, kind of like you, I've found that exercise is one of the best potentiators. And I think that's a healthy way of doing it because exercising requires that effort,

requires that discipline in a healthy way. It's not just, oh, I don't, if I just try to take more kratom, then eventually kind of nausea sets in or dysphoria. So I can't just keep increasing the amount of kratom without some negative side effect coming into play, which I think is kind of a healthy way of doing it. So I don't just pleasure seek on this one compound.

It's kind of like how I manage my health. It takes multiple small efforts. So drinking the right amount of water, eating healthy, exercising, stretching, being mindful and meditating. All of those combined make me healthy. I can't just do one thing and try to overdo one of those aspects to be healthy and happy. And when somebody is talking,

I guess I'll say negatively about Kratom, they will highlight, oh, it's an opiate. Like, and then why would you want to take an opiate? Because we associate that with like the worst drugs ever. So then what is Kratom? Because we see the Kratom plant behind Mark now. What is Kratom once we're actually like, it comes into this form of these like,

these packages and these things that, you know, I guess we don't really know what an opiate looks like, but that doesn't look like a heavy hardcore drug all of a sudden. Yes. So a lot of words in there have some different definition. So an opiate is a compound from the poppy plant. So this would be like codeine, morphine, very specific compounds. Now it gets confusing because we'll say an opioid is a synthetic opiate, but an opioid can also mean any compound that interacts with one of the three opioid receptors. So even something like endorphins, which the word endorphins comes from endogenous morphine. So it's essentially our body producing a morphine like compound. And so just because something

is an opioid does not necessarily mean it is negative or always bad. And kratom itself has opioid like characteristics, but it is different than those classical opiates or synthetic opiates that are called opioids. And so, kratom is different in some very profound ways. So the main active ingredient is called mitragyning, and that does interact with the mu-opioid receptor, but it also interacts with the kappa-opioid receptor, as well as serotonin, dopamine, and the alpha-anginergic receptor. So it's a kind of a multiple receptor agonist.

In addition to that, what we see with typical opiates or synthetic opioids is that they'll stimulate the mu-opioid receptor only, and that's kind of the single activation, and they fully bind to it. So it's a full agonist, fully binds. And as someone consumes more of it, they kind of get this dose dependent response where they get more and more of that analgesic or that pain relief,

and they get more and more of that dopamine release. In addition, those typical opiates recruit what's called beta-arrestin. And that is what is thought that the recruitment of beta-arrestin. And that is what is thought that the recruitment of beta-arrestin is more of that recruitment leads to kind of this kind of a tolerance buildup. So people have to consume more of it

to get the same pain relief effect. And so that's where people kind of traditionally consume more and more opioids just to get the same pain relief. But unfortunately, once too much beta-arrestin is recruited, that's what actually causes the suppression of the breathing. The respiratory depression is how people actually pass away from an opioid overdose. Cratom does not recruit beta-arrestin.

It actually recruits a G protein. And so that's why it's thought that what we see from the testing is that we can take a mouse and give it as much mitragyning as possible to get dissolved in a solution. And still the mouse does not pass away from the kratom or the mitragyning. So it does not seem like kratom can cause

respiratory depression, it's very different. In addition to that, we also see this kind of plateau effect where there's a dose dependent response on pain relief, small amount gives a little bit of pain relief. It kind of keeps increasing, but at a certain level it hits a ceiling where if you take more cradum, you don't get more pain relief.

You don't get more of that dopamine, that kind of pleasure seeking. But in fact, then it's thought that the Kappa opioid receptor gets activated by the Mitragyne and that actually sets in with dysphoria. So you kind of get this non-pleasurable feeling. So kratom in its natural form and in itself almost seems to be kind of self-regulating in that side. And it hasn't been my experience personally to feel like I need more of it. Is that like, is that, I know like with caffeine, you know, you can get like kind of desensitized to caffeine,

100 milligrams or 50 milligrams doesn't really do much to you anymore. And tolerance, yeah, tolerance, right? Does that happen with kratom? It doesn't seem to be because of that G protein bias, but what adds to the confusion and what we've seen with the test results of kratom is that the active ingredient in kratom

can be anywhere from zero to maybe about one to one and a half percent on average. What we find is that a lot of the companies selling kratom and historically, they never really quantified that active ingredient. And so I ran into this with my own personal issue. When I first got into Kratom, I got into it for personal back pain.

And so it was a miracle for my back pain. But then when I tried to order the same Kratom from the same company, I would get it, and it didn't work for me. Like what's going on? This is supposedly the same Kratom, but yet that's where I think some people will assume that they're building a tolerance.

And what's really happening is that they're getting a new batch of kratom or a new lot of kratom that has less active ingredient. So they're consuming more to get back to that therapeutic threshold, which is really the same as what they're doing before, but they're consuming more plant material to get to it. And that's why they think they're getting a tolerance. And that's kind of seems that convoluted part that makes it complicated to see what's actually happening. So when you're looking at a product that has creative in it, right?

No matter what you're looking for, how what are you looking for to see if it's unadulterated, as you've mentioned, because like, there's a lot of creative products out there, you have some Mark has some, what is the consumer looking for to make sure that they're not taking in shit? That is a complicated question. So part of it is, I mean, you have to do research on the company. Are they being transparent? Are they being ethical, really trying to do their best? The hard part with analytical chemistry in general is that it's very hard to find the compound we're looking for. So I can't say just take a random powder

and screen it for every single compound and say, oh, it's unadulterated. Because there's so many research chemicals out there. There's so many slight changes to these chemicals. So creative, you can't necessarily just trust the label. Not all the time. Any product, actually. And that's also part of,

and that's kind of part of the problem with fentanyl, why it's such a hard problem, is because we can detect fentanyl, but then there's isofentanol, there's sufentanol, there's so many different flavors of fentanyl that render a test if we're trying to screen for it and say, hey, this doesn't contain this. It's very hard to actually do that

on an analytical chemistry side, that it's this kind of like cat and mouse game where those people are always gonna make a slight change. And so trying to detect it can be almost impossible. Gotcha. What's some of the words you might be looking for and what's a decent like dosage, you know, because we were just talking before the show

about the grams and the milligrams and there's like an extract and then there's a lot of people kind of figure some of that out. Yeah. So from, from research that's been conducted and these will be surveys that were conducted by the national Institute of drug abuse and Johns Hopkins have done some pretty good surveys. And so now this is anecdotal evidence because it's coming from self-reported consumers, but we do have some very credible research institutes that are trying, you know, they

have a lot of good research protocols to try to get actual information out of these self-reported surveys. And so from those surveys, we kind of see this general average that people on average consume somewhere between one to five grams of kratom for a single dose. And that's kind of dependent on what is the person looking for from the benefit? Am I looking just for a little bit of increase in energy and boost in mood? Or am I looking to help with some severe chronic pain issue? And so traditionally the chronic pain issues like myself, I'll be more towards like the

two and a half to five grams, depending on how bad my pain is during that day. Per serving. Per serving. Yes. And that's because the active ingredients are around one to 2% on total. So that's the grams of the grams. So that, and so that equates to essentially, you know, I'm looking at 10 to say 50 milligrams of Mitragyning as kind of like that therapeutic level

so with with kratom similar to Let's say we'll take like we'll take weed or something like if if I get high or whatever I have this like really uncomfortable feeling but if somebody else does They're like dude. I have never felt better like this feels great. Like, you know, I'm productive on this and that or whatever You know a stoner will say. Is Kratom similar to that? Because when I've taken it,

I was dealing with a lot of back pain when I first got introduced to it. And, you know, it was one of those things, like I talked to Mark about it and he's like, yeah, it will probably help your back, you know? And maybe because I was expecting too much or whatever it may be, I didn't really experience any pain relief.

I experienced a lot of kind of like zoning in on my work, which was fantastic. So I was more on the cognitive side of things, but for pain relief, it wasn't really there. Can you talk about your experience with your back pain? And then also, again, like, do you find that people have different reports on taking the same thing where this person says, well, you say you felt a lot of back pain relief and me, I say like, I didn't feel any pain relief at all. Sure.

Yeah. So there's, there's a couple of parts to that. So there is the complexity that kratom has multiple different alkaloids that have known pharmacogenic effects. So there's some of the opioid interaction that is kind of some of the direct pain relief. There's also pain anthing that has more of a muscle relaxant effect. And so kind of related to my own personal back pain, it's from a degenerating disc in my lower back.

And I've found that sometimes my pain is more of like the very sharp, acute pain. Other times I've found that, well, if I kind of am traveling or let that pain kind of build up, my muscles tighten and start to protect itself. And so it's almost like, I call it almost like a secondary pain. And so what I've found is that sometimes if I take Kratom, I'll traditionally take our Sunrise product,

which will be more on the Mitragyning side. And that seems to help mostly with my pain. But if I let that pain kind of build up for whatever reason, I'll have to switch to more of our sunset variety that has more pain anthing in it, because it's almost like I need that muscle relaxant to kind of let my body kind of return to its normal state, to kind of unprotect itself and kind of get the mobility back.

And so that's where I think pain is such a complicated topic that it's very individual. And then there is the complicated part that there's so many different alkaloids in kratom plus individuals, we all respond differently to how we metabolize both food and drugs. And there's this kind of difference, we have to kind of know what works for ourselves.

How is your back pain now? It's great, mainly. I mean, it's so because I do a lot of synergistic, healthy activities for my back, so I do a lot of weight lifting, but I do carefully, I've started incorporating especially kettlebell workouts into my workout, and this was about maybe two years ago or so, and I found that doing the kettlebells

really strengthens my glutes and really has helped my lower back. And I do a lot of kind of deep squats, really try to do some yoga and breath work to kind of just loosen up and relax that part of the body that's tightening up over it. So when I first got into kratom, which was around 2016, I was at kind of the worst state of my back.

I was in this pain episode about four or five months, really just dealing horrible, horrible pain. And that also, I had to stop exercising, stop going out, kind of change my lifestyle because of that chronic pain was such an issue for me. Probably kind of grumpy and upset. Oh, absolutely, I was really grumpy, angry. It's hard to be in pain.

Yeah, and definitely, I mean, at that point, I didn't even want to envision the future. I was like, well, why would I want to think about finding a wife and having a family someday if I can't pick up my kids and play and do all this kind of stuff? I was just, I don't want this anymore. So I was in that very depressed state.

And so I started, found out Kratom, helped my back pain. I was using Kratom about three times a day. So that serving size of one to five grams, the half life of the alkaloids are around four and a half hours for the Mitragyning. And so that's why we kind of see that people who use Kratom, if they're doing a chronic pain and need it for the whole day, they'll generally consume Kratom

about three times per day. That kind of gives us that 15 ish, 18 hours of relief. And so at that time in 2016, I was definitely using Kratom every day, at least twice, maybe three times a day. Now I use Kratom kind of as needed. So the more stretching, the more I keep up with my workouts, the better my back feels and I don't use Kratom. So I kind of use it as needed. Maybe I don't know, maybe 25% of the month, I kind of will use Kratom depending on how I'm feeling. Who is this person that told you had a degenerative back?

It's like few doctors that I went to, yeah. So I did an MRI and saw kind of the scan that showed kind of a little bit. I think from this day forward, you can start to think that your back is regenerating. Cause it sounds like you're doing a great job of managing it. Very true. So I think, you know, trying think that your back is regenerating. Cause it sounds like you're doing a great job of managing it.

Very true. So I think, you know, trying to change your thought process on that a little bit might be helpful. I don't think it's helpful for us to, you know, I'm negative with myself a lot of times too. And I just don't think it's helpful. So I'd like to see you reframe that

cause it looks like you're doing great. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. For somebody who is taking kratom for pain relief and they find that their meeting or currently taking it every single day or all the time, any suggestions or anything that you think people in that boat should be thinking,

because when someone starts taking something for pain relief, they start to become dependent on that thing for their pain relief. And it seems to just be a cycle of like, this is the only thing that can get rid of it. So I'm going to continue taking it. So is there anything that those types of people should be wary of or pay attention to

with their intake of creative? I mean, it's pain is that complicated topic. And so, yeah, I would say find other modalities that help with it. I mean, even breath work or to your point of kind of mindfulness, right? If I think I need this and it's the only thing, well, how do you reframe that

and kind of reestablish what is there? I mean, on that specifically with Kratom and OnlyKratom, it's hard to give exact recommendations. I mean, do you have more of like a question around that or kind of where to take with that? It kind of goes back to like, if someone is kind of like we were just talking about, if someone is feeling like they,

just kratom is linked to their pain or kratom is linked to helping them feel good. And they get in the cycle of just taking it all the time. Again, you see some reports of people that they, when they try to stop using it and when they try to like come off, just like caffeine, like some people have bad withdrawals. You know what I mean?

And it's one of those situations where you, pain is complicated, but you don't want to be stuck in that situation where it's now very hard for you to stop taking the substance that makes you get out of pain, right? So just recommendations or just things for people to think about in that sense. Yeah. I mean, I think it's the, I think the intent behind it. So it's kind of like the kratom will is fast acting and it's kind of like more of that acute, I'm going to use it now because I need pain relief in the next 10, 15 minutes. But how do I look at,

okay, I would say in general, pain is almost like the master teacher in life. What does this pain come from? What is it trying to tell me? How do I actually see what is that message coming from? And how do I understand what it is to change my lifestyle or change my relationships? What is going on that that pain is coming from? Because I I found that my back pain can also be related to some of the stress and relationships I've had in my life. And I found that when I was kind of interacting with somebody that was kind of causing a lot of the stress and pain that my back would get tight and kind of everything would kind of lock up at that point. And so there, there's that kind of complexity to it.

Yeah, using it as a, as a boost, right? So like, yeah, because like even if somebody like is in really bad pain, they go to their doctor, they get like a steroid injection or whatever it is to numb the pain for a little bit when they go back to doing what caused the back pain, you know, sitting down all day long, that sort of thing, it's gonna run out and what's gonna happen, they're gonna hope to go get that next steroid injection. So with kratom, I would say it's probably gonna be about the same, like use it.

If you're in pain, okay, cool, you use it. Now you feel less pain, okay, now go do something, go walk, go, you know, try that hot yoga or whatever it may be. But Nsema pointed something out though, it's like if somebody does start taking it and then they stop, they feel withdrawals. What causes that?

Yes, I mean, Kratom is technically addictive. And so according to, this is a University of Florida and Dr. Chris McCurdy has been doing a lot of research on Kratom. And from his research, he shows that Kratom is addictive. There are withdrawals from Kratom and from his research, he shows that Kratom is addictive. There are withdrawals from Kratom, but fortunately it's more around like withdrawals from caffeine. So it is different for each person, but on the subjective opioid withdrawal scale, the SOAS scale, Kratom is about a nine, which is

kind of equivalent to that caffeine side. So definitely can be addictive. Nine out of what? I want to say it's like 30. It's like it's pretty high. Nine out of 10? Yeah, it's a very mild addiction compared to, you know, it's a, there's many common substances that have a similar addiction profile. I mean, technically nutmeg is addictive. Chamomile, St. John's wort are kind of all in that same type of category as kratom as

far as the addiction profile. Through my whole career away because of that damn nutmeg. That's interesting. I never knew nutmeg was. Nutmeg is hallucinogenic. Like you can take lots of it and get, it's very, and there's, there's a lot of compounds that are in our herbal cabinets. That's the thing.

Plants in general have amazing compounds and it's really that dose makes the poison. So I can take a small amount of nutmeg and it's aromatic, it smells great, or you can take more of it and have a different experience. I would say back to the addiction side, I would say that because Kratom, there's a lot of products out in the market. The most traditional form is just the leaf people will pick off the tree and chew it, or they'll pick it off, dry it, and make a tea out of it.

And there are also very kind of concentrated extracts or just concentrate products in general. I have found that when I use those products, I mean, I'll use them because I'll travel with them. It's a great taking those little shots when I travel because it kind of gives me a little bit of energy, kind of takes away some of that discomfort when I'm on a plane for hours and hours.

But I do find that if I use high doses of it during that time, kind of several times a day and every day, that I do have some of that experience when I come back. It's like, oh, like I'm kind of feeling bad. Let me take a little bit of creative. And so I noticed the withdrawal effects. What I found is that if I switched to the whole leaf plant and then kind of taper off of it after two or three days.

Can you explain that real quick? Like if you can give some examples, this versus something else, like what do you mean when you switch back to the whole leaf plant? So yeah, so I would say we don't have them here, but it would be, there are products on the market that have kind of a very, they're like a two ounce shot or even smaller.

Potions, right? Yeah, they're like a 15 milliliter. Mainly talking about extracts. Extracts, yeah. So these would be like a purified alkaloid extract. And they will have, so to give you an example, so back to the kind of like that dosing of 10 to 50 milligrams is kind of the average consumption amount.

Those small little bottles, they'll have upwards of 125, 150, and even now some of the companies are producing up to like 300 milligrams in a single little shot, 15 milliliters. Double shot, as we call it, but probably people just gulp it down. Yeah, that's a thing. It has a hundred milligrams. Yeah, a hundred milligrams.

Double shot is only a hundred milligrams? It's a hundred milligrams, yeah. So it's made to like, you know, made to only do half of it, but probably people hammer the whole thing. How about the one that's like, kind of like the size of like a chapstick? Yeah, both of them are about the same.

Oh, okay. Yeah, I of them are about the same. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think actually the, I'm sorry, the first version of it, the potion, that one I think is maybe more like half. It's not quite as strong as the double shot. Got it. So that I would consider like the extracts versus the whole plant I would say is like the powder

that people typically consume or ether we make tablets where you just take the whole leaf powder, press it into a tablet. So it's just easier to kind of measure and know what's the size that I'm taking. With the mind bullet capsules be what we're talking about? Yeah, mind bullet capsules would be the whole leaf powder, just the whole leaf, all the phytochemicals from that plant,

all the additional alkaloids, all that mixed together seems to be a nice way to get back to kind of the baseline of kratom. And then, and then if people do have problems with the addictive side of it, just like anything, even with caffeine is kind of slowly, you know, actively consuming less the next day, kind of forcing yourself to kind of get a little bit lower and actively try to get down back to a baseline, take a break from it is always a good recommendation with any kind of substance or food. And sorry to hog, but where does this fall in line with all of this? Because this is brewed in, this is brewed with eight grams of kratom, right?

So where does the tea fall in with all of this? Yeah, so there's complexity around any type of supplement, food or drug that we talk about. There's both the substance itself and then kind of the delivery form. So if I take a whole plant material and consume it, then our body doesn't really digest fibers very well. So we're kind of slowly releasing those alkaloids as it kind of goes through our stomach and intestines. Teas typically, at least for me personally, seem to have more

of an immediate effect, but then also seem to have kind of a quicker fall off. Okay. In addition to that, when we make a tea, kratom alkaloids are somewhat like a soluble in water, but it really needs like an acid or a base to really kind of be extracted out of it. And so we do add an acid to extract, like a citric acid or like a lemon is very common. And so, but even with that, we probably extract about 70% of the total alkaloids.

So with this brewed with eight milligrams of kratom, and if we kind of get the, we're probably using about one, one and a half percent of Mitragyne and kind of base product of that raw material going into it. And then with that extraction profile of only say 70%, we're probably in like that 50 to 70 milligrams of kratom for this entire bottle.

Okay, gotcha. Yeah, so it's not a... It's not a high, I mean, it's on the higher end of like a typical dose or serving, but it's still kind of within that range of a typical kind of consumer dose. There's no shame in wanting to have great sex, and there's no shame for wanting your member

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Andrew, how can they get it? Yes, that's over at usejoymode.com slash power project. And at checkout, enter promo code power project to save 20% off your entire order. Again, usejoymode.com slash power project, promo code power project, links in the description, as well as the podcast show notes. Yeah, I'm glad we're getting kind of granular about it because I think personally, I don't, my personal experience of utilizing Kratom over the last couple of years is I don't, I haven't

necessarily noticed, I haven't noticed anything particularly dangerous happening to me personally. However, I don't know. I only know what I know. I don't know. Do you know of any research of people using Kratom for long periods of time and maybe it's effects on the brain or anything like that? From the little bit of research that we've seen on that,

there does not seem to be detrimental effects from kratom. So both kind of in the immediate, even this is even say regular kratom consumers when this was done in a clinical trial through Johns Hopkins, they gave rare kratom consumers, they had their morning dose or the normal dose and they did everything from kind of clinical baseline of their blood work to their respiratory heart rate, saw no deviation in those clinical signs.

They also put them like in a driving simulator and did not see a decline in kind of reaction speed. And that's- Drinking drive guys. Right. Yeah. And like with alcohol or cannabis, we definitely see a decline in reaction speed. We see some very profound effects for everyone on that.

And so fortunately, it seems like Kratom does have that safety profile. But at the same time, like anything, I'm sure if we push this to the limit of taking a very, very high extract, I mean, at some point, it's there is going to be an issue no matter what kind of we do. Like we can always kind of abuse something. There's people will find a way to do that. So I think that's always kind of, you know, be cautious and always people are different, right?

So it's like what works for me, there may be a slight different reaction for other people. In other countries, it's my understanding that they'll take the leaves, they put them in a thing of water, they let some sun hit it and they brew it and they just drink it throughout the day just to be more productive.

Yes, yeah, so the traditional reason that people- When there's no like judgment or anything around it. It's an interesting thing that there is so much judgment about it. And that's why we're trying to like almost drag you through the mud a little bit because these are the things that we've heard and these are our genuine concerns as well

as being people that like Kratom. I think Andrew has discontinued his usage, but I still enjoy it. I think you still enjoy it here and there. And we have a lot of people that are like fans of it. And so we're trying to just make sure that like, I guess there's no way of like proving how safe it is, but we're just trying

to kind of get to some of that. But in other countries, it's utilized quite differently than what we're talking about here today, right? I mean, it's, I mean, it's using the same way as far as the tea, a lot of people brew tea in the same way they'll, but in Indonesia and Thailand, a lot of times they'll use a fresh leaf just because it's more available to them. I think it's a very similar, almost cultural similarity to caffeine or coffee. I mean, caffeine is kind of the same way that when we first started making caffeine more popular coffee, there's kind of concerns about it. I mean, I remember from my childhood, like you don't give it to children because it'll stunt their growth or kind of all this stuff. And there's concerns about it. But then as we kind of did more research and understanding

it's like, oh no, like caffeine's really not bad for us. But at the same time, well, you can take too much caffeine. That's- And kill yourself. Yeah, I mean, that's why energy drinks are limited to I think 200 milligrams of caffeine in a serving because it is a stimulant. There is at some point it,

caffeine can become a very big problem. And then if you're consuming it throughout the day constantly, it kind of will mess up with our adenosine receptors, make it harder to sleep. There's other cascades that can cause problems. So even things that are safe can still be misused if not kind of really, you know, what is it doing for my life? If in the same time, it's like other people that maybe have severe chronic pain, fibromyalgia or certain things that just will not be resolved maybe in this lifetime and

they need something to kind of help them manage that, that is kind of their protocol. And as long as they're using it in a healthy way to go out with their friends, go out with their life and kind of manage, kind of manage other aspects of it. That can then be what works for them and what's needed. Yeah, I stopped taking it just to stop taking it. Like just similar to like when somebody wants to ditch caffeine for a little bit, just like, oh, let's see how this goes.

So I didn't have any negative experience with it at all. It's always, well, with the exception of one time where my stomach got really bad. But- Was it the full double shot or the full potion? So it was a full potion and I just, I've taken it before and it was totally fine and we were podcasting and all of a sudden

the light started flickering for no reason. I'm like, oh my goodness, what is happening? And it just, anyway, sorry to, yeah. But other than that, it's been nothing but positive. Do you know if like in other countries, like the age, like is it, do people start drinking it at a younger age? And I mean, I don't even know what's like age appropriate here, like that you'd recommend, but yeah,

in other countries, especially, do you know if it's like accepted at a younger age? I mean, in general, at least in Thailand, it's kind of more looked at as like a medicinal compound or a medicinal compound or medicinal plant. So like I take it as needed. There doesn't really seem to be age restrictions. And even here it's, it is mostly unregulated with the American Cradem Association. They are passing the Cradem Consumer Protection Act in, I think it's almost 13 states now

will be ratified with that type of protection. And there are age limits being put on it. And it's not necessarily that we even see an issue because kratom is bitter. There's just not really, it doesn't drive that euphoria. It doesn't drive dopamine to a level that people seek it out and want it. Because it's excessive.

Nigerians would love this stuff by the way. Because it's bitter in that country. Nigerians would love this shit. Oh, like bitter watermelon and like. Yeah. We gotta work on the marketing. Just target my people instead, huh? You know what is an interesting target market

is housewives. My wife's friends and a lot of family friends that we have are like, that shit makes me a better mom. They're like, that's. Yep, yep, people talk about it. And a lot of moms that are going to these soccer games and stuff with their water bottles full of wine,

have actually traded that in for Kratom. So I think- Interesting. It is really interesting. It's a really interesting thing when you start to, you start to communicate with certain people. My wife carries it around and she has a dropper in her purse of the double shot that we take and she'll just kind of hit it up here and there and her friends are like, what's that? And then she's like giving it to him and then my son Jake is like, she's like, you guys

are drug dealers. He's like, what is happening to us? What is going on here? Because my wife's like, yeah, you know, just take a little bit and then, she's like, if you need more, you could always come back or you could go on the website, you know. Have you guys ever seen the show Weeds?

Yeah, I've never seen it. It's this white suburban mom who starts selling weed and it's just, there you go. It sounds like us, yeah. For sure. Just take a little hedge off the top. I'm kind of curious about this though, when you're talking about that

Cratom Consumer Protection Act, because I remember a few years ago, people were like kind of scared that Cratom was going to be banned. So how's that stuff looking now? Is Cratom like now that's not really a fear anymore? It's more accepted? Yes, so there is.

So the FDA during that 2016 time period, they tried to implement an emergency scheduling. And so traditionally for something to be scheduled, so this is the scheduling act is what say classifies something like cocaine into schedule one, meaning that it has no medicinal use, super addictive, will cause a lot of problems. The FDA wanted to do this similar to kratom,

saying that, oh my God, this compound's so terrible, we need to make it a schedule one. And it's so terrible, in fact, that we're not gonna go through our normal review process. We have this emergency provision that we should just make it immediately. And so they recommended this. The DEA put on their list intent to schedule.

And so that was what spurred this kind of big movement in 2016 to protect kratom. When we, and like I said, when we actually dug into the details of what the FDA was claiming, it was found out that, well, it wasn't actually kratom. It was these adulterated products that have known toxic substances

and are causing the problem. And so that's kind of what spurred this misinformation campaign. And fortunately, the DEA for the first time ever rescinded their intent to schedule. They had all the authorities. This is the first time they've ever done it in 2016 was for Kratom because so many people came out against it

for doctors, lawyers, engineers, I mean, laborers, everyone came out with their story. The DEA was flooded with tens of thousands of comments that said, Hey, I'm using this product and it's helped with this or it's helped with here. Like, what are you doing trying to schedule this? And so much so, I mean, the DEA was embarrassed by what the FDA did so much so that, you know, there's a lot, I mean, congressmen, congresswomen, representatives wrote letters saying like, Hey, you guys can't do this. You got to go through the normal review process.

And so the normal review process is called an eight factor analysis. So the eight factors, as an example, they will list out the history of use, the pharmacokinetics, what do we know about it, how are people using it. That's kind of multiple factors go into this study. And then in addition, the FDA has to agree with the National Institute of Drug Abuse, NIDA,

both of those are kind of sister organizations under the Health and Human Services. Both of those organizations together need to make the same recommendations for a product to actually be scheduled. NIDA does not see kratom in the same light that the FDA wants to say it's bad. They actually see that it's a really good tool

for some potential problems from chronic pain to opioid use or misuse. And so that's where the FDA, they kind of lost their chance doing the emergency scheduling. They can't try that again. They don't actually have the scientific evidence on the eight factor analysis to schedule it

because that has been performed by both, there's this Piney and Associates, they're a consulting company that's worked on scheduling substances in this area of abuse and abuse potential for decades. They did a formal eight factor analysis and does not warrant scheduling of Kratom. Same thing, Wisconsin independently went

through their own eight factor analysis because there were six states that bought into this kratom is bad from the FDA and put a ban in kratom. Five of those states have active legislation to undo that ban because they've now actually been presented with the science, with the actual research. And it just doesn't warrant that type of concern.

I mean, there are definitely, I mean, you know, there are side effects of kratom. If you consume too much of it, you can get nauseous, constipation can be an issue. So there are ways to educate the population on what is safe uses and unsafe uses. Yeah. Has there been any, I guess I'll say studies on kratom potentially helping something like clinical depression or like Alzheimer's or anything like that? Not formally.

So, I mean, there are survey results that people do commonly use kratom for both like anxiety and depression. It seems to be a big use case. So when I say that people use kratom for both like anxiety and depression seems to be a big use case. So when I say that people use kratom for pain, I also like to include, well, there's mental pain that people do include into that just because also, I mean, at least for me too, the mental pain is associated to my chronic pain. It kind of feeds off each other sometimes and back and forth.

So not an official study, but there is definitely survey results. And then there is also the alkaloids of kratom do interact with some of the serotonin receptors. So we do know that it does have that potential to be an antidepressant. And also there is a SSRIs are typically they're associated unfortunately with heart issues if you use them. And I think it's like the serotonin A2 receptor. I don't know exactly, but that was looked at by Chris McCurdy as far as, well,

kratom has some of the serotonin effect. Is it gonna cause some of the same problems that SSRIs do? Fortunately, it does not seem to do that. So it does seem to produce a boost in mood without kind of creating some of those other negative side effects. On that note, just kind of curious about this, especially with the kratom extracts,

because it can somewhat blunt pain and discomfort, if somebody does use it in the context of a workout where they're going very intensely, I know there's no studies that have been done on this, but is that an area where someone maybe needs to be a bit more mindful of their intensity? If it's something that can allow you to push through a bit, I think Mark, I've heard you talk about,

like, you know, you kind of feel that you can do more, right? So is that something that people need to be mindful of? In general, yes. I mean, be mindful of your own body and kind of what that can cause. But I would say that, fortunately with kratom, because it has that ceiling effect where the pain relief does increase

with a higher and higher dose, but there is that ceiling effect where it stops. So it does not fully say remove 100% of the pain. It's not like what I've heard from morphine or other kind of true opiates that, oh, the pain's gone. I just don't feel anything. With kratom, you always kind of feel a little bit of the pain.

And so that I think is kind of the benefit where it's harder to overdo it, but it doesn't mean that someone still can't overdo it. And so I would be careful about it. And we- I think, you know, going to a Power Think seminar years ago, one of the coaches there, he's a famous Russian Power Think coach.

And he just said that, be careful with like stimulants before you work out because it's gonna kind of release something that's not naturally sitting there. And he basically said, if you're going to do something like that, do it on like a day of a competition. And one of his reasons was,

is that it kind of desensitizes you a little bit. And you want to be, as an athlete, you want to try to be like as connected and as honed into every little detail as possible. However, we can make an argument that occasionally, you know, when you're training, that it'd be good to like kind of blunt or block a little bit of pain in the knee,

but, you know, are we blunting it so much and then we're going, maybe potentially running faster. I've had some, I don't really have, I can't think of like a particular pain necessarily, but if I use Kratom, especially if I, like I've done it before, well, I'll take a little bit before I run and I'll take a little bit like during the run. And that is, that's a little too much for me

because what happens is like, I'm so wiped out later on. Like I ran, you know, for me, I ran like a savage, like I ran like an animal. I did really well on that particular day, but it was like, the kratom was really helping with that. And I was desensitized to how fast I normally go. I was desensitized to like the feeling of my feet, you know, pounding on the ground and maybe even somewhat.

The forearm or kind of like how you did. Yeah, and maybe even somewhat like the feeling of like leg fatigue. I'm not saying it helped bypass fatigue by any means, because that's not what it does, but because it's putting a regulator on your sensory ideas of what pain is, in my experience, it has led me to go a little too far, but it's never been anything crazy. It's just been something where I'm like,

holy shit, I'm really wiped out. But it's not like a cortisone shot. No. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've never like a cortisone shot. No. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've never had a cortisone shot, unfortunately. But I mean, I would say that, yeah, when I take, there are times where I'll take Kratom before like a mountain biking ride and I'll be going into it and going up this hill and be like, that's a really great ride.

This is awesome. It's like, Oh yeah, I took some Kratom. Like that's probably helping a little bit, but it is that kind of subtlety where I don't, you know, it's not like I constantly feel like, Oh yeah, I'm on Kratom right now. It doesn't is that kind of subtlety where I don't, you know, it's not like I constantly feel like, oh yeah, I'm on Kratom right now. It doesn't have that kind of effect. And so I think fortunately there is some of that, as long as it's the, I don't know,

the whole plant material, as long as kind of that more natural version that we have a long history of use and kind of knowledge about, that I think is, to me, that's kind of where I try to judge some of this is that, I mean, it's almost like when I get deeper into the analytical side, trying to understand there's so much complexity to it that often leads to almost more questions and sometimes I'm more confused, but that's where it's for me. It's like, okay, I go back to, well, if it's, if it's been around for thousands of years, hundreds of thousands

of years, that's where I try to like, okay, well, I'm gonna trust that that is, has been around. We know it's been working for a while. So let me just kind of go back to the natural form if I have questions about it. And one thing I just wanna think about, or one thing I think about when I think about this is like, for example, people that are on pain meds, you think of guys in the wrestling industry

that like got addicted to vast amount of pain medications, people that have been to accidents, I have an uncle that uses kratom and it's been super helpful for his back over the years, but he came from the side of using pain medication before. And if you are able to use something like this and think of it as a tool, and this has way less side effects

than something like a Vicodin or any of these other pain meds would, that's a fucking godsend, you know what I mean? Because it's like, again, all these things, it's not caffeine, kratom, fucking weed. You're not supposed to use these things every day indiscriminately without thinking about your use, right? Whereas the FDA puts 200 milligrams of caffeine,

but you see people drinking like three or four of those a day, but it's on the can, that means I can have it, right? It's like, you gotta be responsible. It's like, it's a tool that's put in your lap. Whatever happens to you is your responsibility. It's not the responsibility of this. If you choose to drink six of these, don't blame Kratom for your fucking issues, right? So it's one of those things where it's like,

it's a great tool, use responsibly. I mean, sugar is a good example. Oh, fuck. I mean, the rise of type two diabetes, that used to be called adult onset diabetes, which, I mean, that's not really a disease. You're not broken. It's just, you're choosing to consume way too much sugar

and your body can't compensate for it. And I mean, and that's the thing, like our, and it's, I think it's one of the best things about humans, but then also some of the hardest things to realize is that humans are so adaptable that I can put myself in a terrible situation. I can either kind of stress my body out physically, do it over and over.

And it's, in some point, my body will kind of adapt to it and let me continue doing it. I can like push myself through it. But then at some point, whether it's months in some point, my body will kind of adapt to it and let me continue doing it. I can like push myself through it. But then at some point, whether it's months or years later, all of a sudden I'll have ramifications or that will catch up with me. And so that mindfulness of, okay, what am I choosing to do? Am I doing too much of it?

And am I just like stressing my body too much? And stress is that weird thing where our bodies need stress to function. So I mean, a good example is that our bone density is super important for just overall health. But if you take an astronaut, put them out in outer space with zero gravity, they start losing bone density immediately. And it's one of those things. So we need stress for our body to respond in the right way, but then too much stress will cause things to break down and cause damage. So it's that really fine balance of all. And then, and that's where it's kind of like,

to your point, we have to be mindful. Okay, is this a tool? Is it helping me? What's in this current situation could be very helpful. I need it. But then tomorrow or next week, next whatever that other time period is, well, do I still need this? Yes or no.

That kind of constant reevaluation is super helpful for everything that we're doing in life. I really liked the saying from the guy at squat university. He talks about work on what you can work on and fix what you can fix. And so for you, I liked the idea of like, like, okay, I'm gonna take this kratom because I have pain. Wow, this kratom really helps.

But you didn't just sit on your ass and just like, oh, kratom's gonna fix my back. I'm gonna take the Kratom and pour it on my back and it's gonna fix my back magically. That's not how any of it works. You have to go out there and do some of the work yourself. So it's nice that it was something that relieved you of some of your pain, therefore it may have relieved you

of some of your depression, therefore it led you to either seek out a trainer, a coach, go to a gym, go on some bike rides, and so forth. And I think that that is probably the best usage of something like this. Absolutely. And then once you get your momentum, it's like maybe you don't really need it anymore.

It's good to just practice every once in a while, just take it as a challenge. Just go on this run or do this lift or do this workout for this day. If you don't have any signs of the chronic pain and be honest with yourself, just go in and just lift Natty for the day and see. Yeah, absolutely.

And just kind of see how it feels. Give yourself a chance, give yourself a shot because a lot of times after you do three or four sets of something, motion is a lotion. Once you get moving, it's gonna get your mind going, and you're probably gonna be pretty into it at that point, and you probably don't really need your caffeine or your creatum at that point.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's one of those things, I don't, I mean, philosophically, I don't know, need is such a loaded term. It's like, okay, well, do I really need this? Like, no, there's so many ways to really evaluate this life and this kind of experience to choose kind of really what we want or need is like, it's really more of a choice of what I need

versus actually needing something. Tell us a little bit more about the plant that you brought in. Like, tell us like, basically like what is kratom and like, where does it come from? Yeah, so kratom is a tropical tree. This grows in the deep, deep jungles of Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia.

And it is in the native environment, it really likes to grow in kind of river deltas or along river banks. And so you'll actually see, you know, there's nice like super dark brown kind of silty, you know, jungle river. And as you go from the river towards the banks, sometimes you'll see these plants like sticking up

out of the water and that can actually be cratum. So cratum will grow underneath water, fully submerged. And then it also kind of steep, you know, keeps creeping up into the bank and kind of can be on full just soil as itself. So that's why it really likes a lot of nutrients, a lot of that super silty river soil that it really loves to grow in. And that's why it really likes a lot of nutrients, a lot of that super silty river soil that it really loves to grow in. And it's, it's tropical evergreen. So it loves

high heat, high humidity, full sun, just year round. And that sapling back there is a pretty small one. It's probably a couple months old, but these trees, I mean, I call them trees because they will be a full tree. They will grow into several feet across as far as the diameter of their trunk. They will grow hundreds and hundreds of feet tall. And it's just amazing how large these trees can be. I mean, so in Southern California here, we have eucalyptus trees that are fairly large.

Yeah, cradum will easily get to that size if not larger. Got it, I didn't know that. I thought it was like a bush. No, it's fascinating. And it's weird because like you can, because they're so fast growing, they kind of propagate pretty quickly in those riverbanks. A lot of them do look like small little bushes or trees. And if you cut them off, you can kind of keep them somewhat small,

but they are definitely a tree and they will grow and grow and grow. A constant thing that's been beneficial for all of our health has been intaking enough protein, but also intaking quality protein. And that's why we've been partnering with Good Life Proteins for years now. Good Life not only sells Piedmontese beef, which is our favorite beef. And the main reason why it's our favorite

is because they have cuts of meat that have higher fat content, like their rib eyes and their chuck eyes, but they also have cuts of meat like their flat iron. Andrew, what's the macros on the flat iron? Yeah, dude. So the flat iron has 23 grams of protein, only two grams of fat, but check this out. Their grass-fed sirloin essentially has no fat and 27 grams of protein.

There we go. So whether you're dieting and you want lower fat cuts or higher fat cuts, that's there. But you can also get yourself chicken, you can get yourself fish, You can get yourself scallops. You can get yourself all types of different meats. And I really suggest going to Good Life and venturing in and maybe playing around with your proteins. I mean, going back to the red meat.

There's pecania. There's chorizo sausage. There's maple bacon. That stuff's incredible. The maple bacon is so good. The maple bacon is really good. My girl put those in these bell peppers with a Chicken and oh my god, it was so good

But either way guys protein is essential and the good life is the place where you can get all of your high quality proteins So Andrew, how can they get it? Yes You can head over to good life proteins calm and enter promo code power project to save 20% off your entire order Links in the description as well as the podcast show notes. We talked about some of the hangups of it and some of the negative. What are some of the main positives? Yeah. I mean, I think it's in addition to, I mean, I think somewhere around from the survey results, most people, like 75% of people, so the three main use cases of Gradem are

going to be kind of like a lifestyle enhancement. So instead of caffeine, I want to consume a beverage or some plant that will give me kind of a boost in mood and energy and kind of help me get going. The other kind of third is around that chronic pain issue. So kind of both mental and physical pain, kind of like myself. And then the last case that's a growing and kind of getting, to me, unfortunately, it gets the most awareness is helping people with opioid use disorder, just because it's such a prominent problem in this country

that's only been growing for the last several decades. I mean, it's getting worse and worse. Even today, it's getting worse. And so I think some of the biggest positives is that it can be a great tool for helping people who are unfortunately in that terrible pain state of opioid over use, as well as there's some anecdotal evidence that people are actually using kratom to get off of methamphetamines, which is very unique

because there is no suboxone or naloxone for methamphetamines. There's no solution for currently people who have that type of addiction problem, but kratom does seem to be at least anecdotally being used by people to, if they choose to, to kind of use kratom to get off of that type of addiction, which is that could be amazing for just helping society and of great benefit. That makes me wonder a little bit about what meth feels like.

Not that I'm going to actually try it, but the thing is, is we've always mentioned that. Like when using kratom, it puts you in a good mood. Like, and when I say a good mood, it's different from anything. I feel very, like I want to give my mom a call, tell her I love her. Like I want to give somebody a hug.

It puts me in that type of mood, right? So I'm like, huh, that's great. And it's awesome. But then if it's helping somebody get off of meth, what the fuck? I mean meth is a because the thing is I don't think people realize that I mean MDMA is a methamphetamine Oh, yeah, okay. Adderall is a methamphetamine Ritalin is a methamphetamine and so I think there's more Compounds that are similar to that in our society or accepted that that people don't necessarily associate with being a meth drug.

So it's that complexity of the human brain and how things work. Is it the serotonin side that's kind of really interacting and kind of what's going on in that function is really interesting. What's the deal with kava? We got some kava sitting here as well. Yeah. So kava is a plant that again comes from the jungle, but this is instead of the leaves being picked. So kava, the leaves are actually toxic. And so this is what, if you ever see problems

where oh, kava may cause a liver issue, this was actually because several years ago there was a vendor or a supplier, I think in Germany, that instead of throwing away the top aerial parts of the plants, the parts that are above the ground, the stems and the stalks and the leaves, he decided to mix that in with the roots. So traditionally, kava, it's these long roots that grow down into the soil. Those are the ones that are harvested and made into a traditional drink. So it comes from the Polynesian islands and it was customary for when tribes would

come together, they would serve like a ritual of kava. And kava is known to kind of be this anti-anxiety kind of brings down aggression levels without causing like cloudiness. So other kind of typical like GABA receptor pharmaceuticals like Xanax will yes reduce anxiety but also kind of cause some of that loss of focus kind of cloudiness. Kava does not seem to do that. So it kind of has this anti-anxiety effect. It does interact with a lot of the GABA receptors as well as kind of the NMDA receptor, which if people who, of the NMDA receptor, which if people who, what's thought around alcohol is that, you know, I, I liked alcohol for a while because it was kind of gave me the sociability kind of like wanting to go out, have fun, talk with people more. And the thought is that

ethanol interacts with that NMDA receptor, which is kind of causes that. Cava does have some of that same receptor interaction. And so that's where some of that Cava lactones is what are the broad category of the active ingredients. Cava lactones do interact with some of those receptors and kind of create that relaxation effect. Some people like it for sociability. Some people like it for reduction in anxiety and kind of just that anxious feeling.

Yeah, I've been really digging Cava a lot. It's really good. The Cava shot that Mark just had there, it tastes phenomenal. What is it about Cava that will like to straight up numb your mouth? It sort of reminds me of back in the day when I first started drinking and it's like, oh, I can feel it because my face is numb now. So it's a very similar feeling. What is that? Yeah. Some of, some of the Kavalactones have analgesic properties that are non-opioid based analgesic properties. Um, I don't know if the research is fully understanding what

it is. I think it might be like a calcium channel derivative. Almost like a Novacaine type of thing, right? Yeah, exactly. That's the way it feels when you're drinking it. Like my face and gums and stuff are numb. What's going on here? Am I getting an allergic reaction? Like what the heck? Yeah, over here there's a place called like

Roots of Happiness and they have some cava there that tastes good, but for the most part, it's rough when you first start trying it. They got something called the cloud breaker over there. That's like, yeah, it's pretty strong. Yeah. I was actually just drinking some homemade kava in my shaker cup too.

Yeah. I'm really digging it. Is there anything that I should be concerned because it's like, I'm not really using it as like, I don not really using it as like, like I don't drink at all. So I don't, I'm not, I'm never even in those social situations where it's like, I have to say no because everybody already knows. But, um, yeah, is there anything? Cause like we've been asking a bunch of cautionary questions about kratom. So kind of flipping that over to kava,

is it doing anything to my liver? Um, it seems, I mean, sometimes it does taste like dirt. So it does seem very earthy and natural. It's definitely earthy, yeah. But I don't want it to be like, you know, one of those things that's, oh, it's too good to be true. Like, is there something I should caution myself? Maybe even addictive properties or anything like that?

I honestly, I don't have as much research on kava. And it's, there is some research on it, but not as much as kratom. And it's just one of those compounds that's kind of, uh, we, we do know from the research that I have seen. So I think Oliver Grundman, who is also a researcher into kratom that I've seen a lot of his research, he is researching kava and he's made some of the same analogies that there are multiple kava lactones working together and kind of synergistically but each one of those kava lactones has a Different effect. So some of those kava lactones have more of that kind of

localized anesthetics like that topical numbing feeling some have more of the You know the NMDA receptor agonists some are more of the GABA So I'm not quite sure on all the differences and complexities of it, but it does seem very similar to kratom, where it has multiple compounds, different interaction receptors. I mean, I would assume it's kind of like any compound that, OK,

see how your body responds to it. If you're doing it every day or feel like you're dependent on it, OK, let's analyze why, maybe kind of taper off and stop for a while, see what's going on with it. Yeah, I'd imagine it's like, it would be impossible to, I'm not even going to say overdose, but it would be impossible to take too much because it's like, it's not easy to drink a lot of it.

But, you know, with that said though, like I have been recommending it to friends and family that, you know, will have a drink here or there. And I'll be like, hey, just try this instead. The one that's from Mine Bull, it tastes incredible in sparkling water. And it tastes like, hey, just try this instead. The one that's from Mind Bull, it tastes incredible in sparkling water, and it tastes like, I think like a pina colada.

It tastes like some kind of mixed drink. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it's refreshing, and then you get that numb feeling, and then you start all of a sudden, like you feel a little bit more outgoing, and it's like, dude, this feels great. Like, it's really cool. It does feel, you don't feel drunk,

but you just, you're just like, you're having a better time now. Yep. Yeah. I would say too, I mean, I have heard that kava has like a reverse tolerance because the kava lactones are more fat soluble. So that's why you'll see it more with like milk or coconut milk, some kind of fat to kind of help extract

out those kava lactones, which also then it may take a little bit to kind of build up in your system. So the first couple of times you have kava, it may not be as noticeable, but then if you're consumed. Yeah, that's what happened to me. I didn't notice. I had like two of them and I didn't notice anything other than it just tasting gross. Yeah. I was like, this seems like it sucks. Then I went, you know, a couple more times and then I was like, ah, okay. Then, yeah. Then one time it hit me like a freight train.

I'm like, what kind of ride am I on right now? But it wasn't bad, it was good. Yeah, so I think that would be the caution, right? So start off knowing that if you're going to try some, you may not feel it at first, but then if you do it several days in a row or kind of do that, you may then need less of it. So then if you're going to use it a few days in a row,

know that, okay, if I normally consume a full drink of this, well, if I'm now a week into doing it, because I've done it every day for some reason, then well, maybe I'll just try half first, see how I respond versus kind of just doing a whole shot or whole like beverage consumption. To Andrew's point too, on like overdosing on some of these things, kratom is definitely, you know, can definitely be easy to overdose because you could just hammer down, you know, some of these shots and stuff like that.

But again, I'm just go for my own experience after utilizing for several years now. There's nothing that calls to me that wants to do that. I'm just kind of thinking like, that's not gonna be, that's not gonna be fun. It's gonna be- Correct, yep. for me, it feels like it's just gonna feel worse, you know? And the same thing with kava.

So I have experienced where I had a little bit too much kava and it was like the opposite. So you get this really cool feeling and you're like real relaxed and everything. And if everything feels kind of smooth, and then all of a sudden you start, for me, I was starting to get like anxiety, which I don't usually have any anxiety.

I started, I don't know, just being really uncomfortable and really fidgety. And so I was like, okay, I can only have about two of those. That's my limit. Yeah, I think that's, I mean, at least with kratom, we think that that could be because it's also a kappa opioid agonist, which when that one is stimulated,

there is some pain relief, but there is also dysphoria that sets in. So it's almost kind of self-limiting nature to it. Yeah, and I guess, again, from my own experience with alcohol, I've never been one to have two drinks and be like, I need three or four more. I've always been like, oh, I feel like I'm in a good spot. I should probably just start to, because I'm a pussy with it, I should probably just start to drink

some water. I mean, I would say too on the, on the history of use of compounds, if we see certain say plants or drugs that have been around for a while and they do create this euphoria or big dopamine release. Typically what we see is that humans will often want to try to concentrate or get a delivery method that gets faster and harder hitting. So typically with like heroin or crack

or some of those terrible, terrible compounds, we see that people took it from the, you know, opium tea, then they started extracting it, making it to the point where it was smokable, because smoking kind of gets faster hitting. And then, hey, can I make it injectable? We see this kind of thing. With kratom, it's been around for centuries,

but we don't see it. We're thinking about the body, aren't you? Are you thinking about booty delivery? Oh, God. Is that what you're looking at? No, no. No, I'm just thinking like, yeah, how wild it gets. We always take everything such as-

Humans are fascinating creatures. Yes. Yes. And so that is, I mean, the compound of concern would be the seven hydroxy mitragyne. So this is a compound. So mitragyne is that main active alkaloid. There's a metabolite or an oxidated version of it called seven hydroxy mitragyne.

Does anybody sell that? There are starting to be, unfortunately, yes. There are people that are now taking mitragyne, going into a lab and artificially oxidating that compound to create high, high levels of seven hydroxy mitragyne and starting to put that in tablets or drinks. And that is the one that if we take a mouse, so with mitragyning with kratom, we take a mouse, we give it to it, it will not try to consume more.

In fact, you can actually take a mouse that's addicted to heroin, substitute in mitragyning, it will use less of it. And then when you switch back to heroin, that mouse will use less of it. So great, perfect benefits society, that's what we want. Seven hydroxy mitragyine has the opposite effect. The mouse does want more of it.

There is that pleasure seeking with that compound. Fortunately with kratom in its natural form, it's not really produced by the plant. It's kind of a byproduct after the leaves and picked and harvested. But humans were pretty intelligent sometimes, or at least we think we are. And in a lab, we can kind of artificially create that.

So we are starting to see products that have either purified seven hydroxy or just kind of straight seven hydroxymetrigyne. And that's the unfortunate part. And it's definitely semi-synthetic. So we do a lot of work with laboratories and that's kind of part of our core mission is to really kind of understand more of this like quantification.

How do we associate the quantified alkaloids to these various different benefits? And so we work with Dr. Richard Van Breeman up in Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University and I sent him some of these new 7-OH products. And definitely through his testing, we see that there is 7-hydroxy mitragyning. There's also another peak that's also most likely mitragyning pseudo endoxyl, which is kind of another version of 7OH. But then there's also this third peak that seems to be an artificial kind of created additional isomer of this kind of very potent compound. So that's the part that we don't want to see as an industry kind of become prevalent

because people are just kind of chasing this euphoric side to it that kind of can be very problematic. Yeah, some of these companies are doing all kinds of weird stuff. I saw because you can't like advertise, you know, create them like via like Facebook and so forth, it's banned from some of these things. You can't sell it on Amazon.

I know that people are still doing this. There's no legal reason for that, but companies are choosing to ban, kind of shadow ban Kratom, which the unfortunate part is that it creates this gray market, black market, where there are legitimate use cases of Kratom, legitimate ways to use it safely. But then there's also the 7-OH products, there's illegitimate ways to do it that are dangerous. But because we're kind of in this gray area of unregulated, all of that gets lumped together and consumers don't have the information of what they need to kind of distinguish between, hey, this is really not kratom, it's kind of an adulterated

or semi-synthetic product. This is the natural form that can be consumed safely. I saw one company like misspelling it. I've seen that company before. They just like spell it differently. It's like said differently. But it's kratom. And then there's Feel Free, which went on for a few years

without telling anybody that there was kratom in there, which I think is horrible. Yes. Whoa. Yes. And that's like the biggest, that's one of the bigger companies. Unfortunately, there is some of that behavior of, I would say consumer products in general

to not disclose what's inside. I mean, we've, we've run into, because we're a vertically integrated company, so we do everything from sourcing our direct material from Indonesia to importing, to research, to manufacturing, to our own branding. We do all of it. And through this process, we've gotten into private labels, making other people's products or supplying raw ingredient to other manufacturers. And there are definitely some manufacturers out there that will, you know, we chose not to work with them

because they wanted to add their own secret ingredient to create them, but they don't list it on the bottle. They don't do any, and it's just, and that, yeah, that is not an acceptable behavior in anything. It's- Yeah, if you're unsure of like what's in a product, I mean, there's no way of knowing if someone's not sharing it,

but if it doesn't tell you how many milligrams or grams, or you can't seem to get a straight answer about any of it, then just definitely don't consume it, because you're really just rolling the dice. You have no idea how much you're taking. Right. And that's fucked, because again, with this type of product that are,

people are like, oh, Kratom does this, it does that. Then you have these people within the industry that are selling a product that might actually be fucking people up, and then they just say, well, it does that, then you have these people within the industry that are selling a product that might actually be fucking people up. And then they just say, well, it's Kratom. You know, it's just this it's labeled across the board as like the Kratom is just fucked. So that's unfortunate. Yeah, that seems and that's also why.

So as an example, I live in, I live just outside of San Diego City. And so San Diego City, they decided to also do an emergency provision to ban Kratom around that 2016 time period. But what the reason they banned Kratom primarily was because at the same time there was synthetic marijuana, spice and bath salts were going around. I don't know if you guys remember that kind of stuff. And unfortunately Kratom was sold in those same retail establishments. So at least in San Diego, it was kind of like, Oh, we see all these products on the shelf that are causing problems. Oh, and Kratom was right next to it. So all of those synthetic analogues

are banned. Well, Kratom in his natural form is not synthetic. And so it's not really part of that category, but that confusion that can be caused can be the, the unknown kind of a detriment to something that could be usable in very helpful society. But if it's mischaracterized or confused with other things, that's the unfortunate part that can happen. What to put a cratum on the map for you? How'd this whole thing get started?

Yeah, actually, your brother had a nice podcast. So Chris Bell was on Joe Rogan's podcast in 2016 because of that imminent kind of a scheduling that the FDA wanted to happen. And so Chris went on Joe Rogan's podcast and start talking about it to kind of activate the community. And so that was kind of part of that because there is, it's a hard number to estimate,

but we think it's somewhere around like 10 to 15 million Americans use kratom. At least. Sorry to interrupt, but that podcast literally saved Kratom. Yeah, I think so. It's fantastic. And so that's how we were made aware to it and kind of got involved in it, tried it for the first time. And then because it was such a core, I know, I mean, saving my life in a lot of ways that I became very passionate about it and so willing to go out and do the research and kind of then teach people as much as I

can about it. And so yeah, fortunately, I'm glad that yeah, Chris was willing to do that and kind of keep that information flowing for everybody. And you guys have a YouTube channel, but some of the stuff got restricted and stuff like that, right? Yeah, there's been some interesting, so I mean, we've been doing this for seven years now and because of that stigma, because of that confusion, like I said, there's a lot of companies

that restrict advertising cratum or just restrict any kind of association to it, unfortunately. And so we've gone through a lot of, I mean, we used to do Facebook advertisements and then they would kind of shut it down because they have automatic shutdown features. Then we spent like a year and a half, two years educating Facebook, their legal team

about no, this is the actual law. This is okay. This is what we're doing. It's fine. And we get our account reestablished and be great. But then some of these automatic filters would kick it off again. And so that kind of frustration was very problematic. Where can people find you?

Where can they find out more about your company? Yeah, so our main website is ETHa Naturals. E-T-H-A naturals.com And then we also have a lot of social media handles at ETHa Naturals. So Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. So we are now X. So yeah, we try to get out there and try to give as much information as we can. We really like to educate,

really like to try to promote kind of the plant itself and kind of see where we can just help, whether it's the, we also do a lot of activation kind of on legalization and regulations. So I've been all over, whether it's local places around San Diego or different cities, going out to Washington, DC, there's actually a federal

Kratom Consumer Protection Act that is in our federal level of legislation. And this one importantly is it's advocating that the FDA publish the research they're conducting on Kratom and just provide a public forum so that people can come together and tell their stories on why they're using Kratom and how they're able to do it safely, what the use case is. So that way we can actually get real information into the public and get away from kind of the shadow misinformation side. And so that it would be a great bill just to support because it's not saying that Kratom

has to be legalized. It's simply saying that the FDA has to publish their research. They have to actually allow people to talk about it. And we just want the science. We want the actual information. Because everything can be a tool or misused. So let's just get the true information out there and get as much education and truth as we can.

That's what that Federal Cratom Consumer Protection Act is really requiring. And so if people are willing to, they like Kratom, please go talk to your representatives, your senators, your legislators, representatives, please do that because that is just gonna be an important step forward in actually getting more truth and more actual research and information about it.

Thanks for coming to visit us here in Davis, California today, appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. This is a great studio, love you guys. So, appreciate everything. Thank you so much. Strength is never weak, this weakness is never strength. Catch you guys later, bye.