Mark Bell's Power Project - Mark Bell's Power Project EP. 205 - Georgia Ede

Episode Date: May 3, 2019

Georgia Ede, MD is a nutritional psychiatrist who specializes in nutrition regarding mental health. She first became interested in nutrition after discovering a new way of eating that completely reversed the health problems she had developed in her early 40’s, including Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Migraines, and IBS. She earned her M.D. from the University of Vermont College of Medicine and afterwards, worked as a pharmacologist, established a general adult psychiatry practice, and worked as staff psychiatrist at Harvard University Health Services. She was the first and only physician at Harvard University Health Services to provide nutrition consultations to those interested in an alternative to psychiatric medications. Georgia now devotes her time to nutritional psychiatry focusing her efforts on studying, writing, and speaking about the powerful scientific connection between food and brain health. At 52 years old, despite a strong family history of obesity, type II diabetes, high cholesterol, migraine headaches, anxiety disorders and ADHD, she has no health problems and take no medications. ➢SHOP NOW: https://markbellslingshot.com/ Enter Discount code, "POWERPROJECT" at checkout and receive 15% off all Sling Shots Find the Podcast on all platforms: ➢Subscribe Rate & Review on iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-bells-power-project/id1341346059?mt=2 ➢Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4YQE02jPOboQrltVoAD8bp ➢Listen on Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/mark-bells-power-project?refid=stpr ➢Listen on Google Play: https://play.google.com/music/m/Izf6a3gudzyn66kf364qx34cctq?t=Mark_Bells_Power_Project ➢Listen on SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/markbellspowerproject  FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell ➢ Snapchat: marksmellybell Follow The Power Project Podcast ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MarkBellsPowerProject Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/  Podcast Produced by Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz

show today. Super excited. Nice to meet you, Mark. Yeah, my brother's told me nothing but good things. Are we recording already? Yeah, we're good. All right. We're rocking and rolling here. So first question out of the gate, might as well just dive right into it. Are vegetables bad for us? Oh, that's a great question. Well, I think it depends on who you are. I mean, I think a lot of us tolerate vegetables very well, at least most of them. We evolved alongside a lot of these foods, and we've evolved mechanisms to adapt to dealing with them. So a lot of the natural toxins that are in vegetables, which are there to protect the plant, we either don't absorb them, or the ones that we do absorb, we rapidly detoxify and eliminate them if we're healthy. But the problem is some of these foods are pretty new to us and we don't

have a lot of mechanisms for dealing with them. And, you know, for example, the grains and legumes, which are newer, but then even some of the older foods, once we have some gut damage or some metabolic damage or immune system damage or microbiome damage, we may not be able to process those natural toxins properly anymore, and they may be able to actually breach our defenses and make their way in. Some of us are therefore very sensitive to a lot of plant compounds. I was able to eat pretty much anything I wanted until I was in my early forties and then I wasn't. So I think it really depends on who you are. Do you have any idea of why that happened? Like you just changed? Do you know why? Any ideas?

I wish, you know, I can, I can look back and think, you know, well, I did go, I did undergo several courses of antibiotics, which was very unusual for me. I was never ill. I was a pretty healthy person, but I was having some symptoms that weren't going away, a cough that lasted forever, and some dizziness. Somebody that I saw, some medical professional that I saw, said, well, we can't figure anything else out, and it was going on and on forever. So they said, why don't you just take a course of antibiotics, which I was reluctant to do, but I really didn't know what else to do. I was missing a lot of time from work. And so I did that. And I don't know how long after that it was that the

symptoms began. And I think the year before that I'd gone to Cambodia and I had been using a lot of deep mosquito repellent when I was there. I don't know if that's part of the issue or if it was neither of these things. I don't know. But I really do think that a lot of us are exposed to toxins in the environment. It could be antibiotics, other kinds of medications, pesticides, plastics, other things in the environment that can damage our microbiome and our gut lining and our immune system. So I'm really not sure. I wish I understood it, but

even if I understood it, I'm not sure I'd be able to undo it, unfortunately. So I think we need to be really careful how we take care of ourselves. One thing that I really like that you talk about that it's a little bit different than I'm hearing from other people is, you know, what a diet change can do to the mind. And I really like that side of things because I think there's a lot of people that the weight of the world is just crushing them. They're upset, they're depressed, they're not happy with themselves. They have a lot of anxiety. And obviously, there could be a cascade of reasons why they feel that way. And certainly, just eating meat is not necessarily going to solve all their problems. But can you talk about that a little bit? How do you see this playing out for some people that may be suffering from anxiety and depression to change their diet up to maybe they're going from eating junk to a carnivore style diet? their diet up to maybe, you know, maybe they're going from eating junk to a carnivore style diet? Yeah, that's a great question. And it's true that just eating meat doesn't solve the problem for most people. You know, most of the people in the world who have mental health issues already eat

some animal foods. You know, the vast majority of people do not eat a vegan diet. And so simply including animal foods in the diet doesn't seem to be enough for most people. But there are some really key dietary changes, which can make a huge difference. If you have a mental health problem, if you're listening to this podcast, and you have a mental health problem, and you don't want to take medication, or the medications you're taking aren't working very well, you don't like the side effects, or you can't afford the medication, there are a lot of other things you can do to help yourself feel better. And it's really about, you know, one of the things I like to say is the most powerful way to change your brain chemistry is through food, because that's where the brain chemicals come from in the first place.

So if you understand which foods are most likely to be working against you and you remove those foods and you know which foods your brain needs and you include those foods, then you can really make a huge difference. A lot of people are able to reduce their need for medication or in some cases even eliminate their need for medication by making those choices. So people have a lot more control than they realize. Do you think that some of this stuff was, some of these issues may have been caused from bad food? So if good food is kind of helping us out of the situation, do you think bad food may have played a large role in why so many people have anxiety and depression? I do think that's the case. We don't have a lot of studies to guide us yet. The field of

nutritional psychiatry, for lack of a better phrase, is really in its infancy. The studies are, we need a lot more studies, but there's a lot of science already, not clinical trials where you take people and you change their diet and you see what happens, because we only have a couple of those, actually. But lots of good, we know a lot about biochemistry and physiology and anatomy and history and anthropology and plant chemistry. And we know how foods work in the body. We know what the brain needs. So taking all of that science, it seems really clear to me how we should be eating if we want to optimize our mental health. So you mentioned certain foods are working for us and other foods are working against us.

And obviously you've used a lot of this in your practice. So what are examples of foods that are working against us? Great question. of foods that are working against us? Great question. So there are the two biggies in my mind are the refined carbohydrates, anything that gives you an unnaturally high spike in insulin, blood sugar levels. And those are things like sugar, flour, fruit juice, processed cereal products, those kinds of foods and refined seed oils, the so-called vegetable oils, which are things like soybean oil and canola oil and sunflower oil and cottonseed oil. These are highly refined, unnatural products, which are very, they promote inflammation.

So in a lot of the mental health disorders we now understand are driven by inflammation, like microscopic inflammation, not the kind you can see, but the inflammation inside the brain. So refined carbohydrates also drive inflammation. And there are lots of different ways that those two ingredients and those, so refined carbohydrates and seed oils, vegetable oils, those two ingredients, those are the signature ingredients of modern diets. A lot of people think, oh, modern diets are bad because they have too much meat and too much saturated fat. That's ridiculous. We've been eating those things for time immemorial. What's new are the refined carbohydrates and seed oils. Those were not present to any significant extent in our diet a long time ago that that's really where the problem is. If you ask me. So you've, you've been

in a like psychiatry, you've been in a, in the college world, you've been teaching and you've been a, you have a clinic and you've been helping a lot of people for a long time. You know, what are one, what, it's one of the things that, that you maybe didn't like about being in that setting as opposed to what you're doing now? Well, so I worked in college mental health. I've worked in many different types of setting, hospitals and community clinics and college mental health settings and private clinics for a long, long time, private practice. And I loved all of that work for very different reasons. My primary specialty was college mental health. I was in college mental health. I worked at the Harvard University Health Service for seven years and then Smith College Health Service for five years. And the

reason why I left, even though I loved the work, I love the students, you know, I love psychiatry, the students, you know, I love psychiatry, was because it was very difficult for me to do the kind of work that I wanted to do in those settings, the nutrition-oriented work, which I'm so passionate about in those settings. I mean, partly because there was administrative resistance to that approach. For example, at Harvard, we had a change of leadership during the time that I was there, and the new director said to me, as soon as she began, at Harvard, we had a change of leadership during the time that I was there. And the new director said to me, as soon as she began, she said, you know, you need to stop offering nutrition consultation because it's beyond the scope of psychiatric practice. And that was really disappointing to me. It was one of the main reasons why I left and went to Smith.

But even at Smith, there was some resistance from, you know, the wellness department, for example, and then the dietician on campus. So, and this, I understand why, you know, the information that I'm sharing is very different from, you know, conventional. I understand it, but it was just unfortunate. So, my hands were tied in a certain way in those institutional settings, but also students' hands were tied to a certain extent because even the very motivated students, a lot of them are required to eat in the dining halls. And it's really hard to change your diet and make it healthy in a dining hall. And, you know, almost every campus nowadays has a vegan dining hall. They may have a kosher dining hall. They may even have, you know, all kinds of special, a gluten-free dining hall. I don't know of a college campus in the United States that has

a whole foods dining hall where you can go and just get real food, meat, fish, vegetables, fruits. I don't know of a dining hall that does that. So, you know, when kids are, kids, young adults are walking through the lines at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and there's junk available at every single meal, it's really hard, you know, to resist it. And it's hard to find, it's hard to find really healthy food in those environments on a consistent basis. What's the primary role of a psychiatrist? Well, it depends on where you're working. So if you're hired by a clinic or a university or if you're hired by somebody else, you're usually hired to provide what they call psychopharm services,

which means you're diagnosing people and you're prescribing medication and you're managing those medications. And the reason why most places don't hire psychiatrists to do other things like nutrition counseling or psychotherapy is because it's not cost-effective. It's more cost-effective to hire a dietician to do the nutrition work and to hire psychologists and social workers and other kinds of trained therapists to do the nutrition work and to hire psychologists and social workers and other kinds of trained therapists to do the psychotherapy. So, psychiatrists are hired to do the psychopharmacification work. But if you work for yourself, you can practice however you want. And a lot of psychiatrists have at least a part-time private practice in order to practice the way they want to, including incorporating psychotherapy into their practice and not having to do these really short visits where all you're doing is symptom checklists and prescription management.

Does that answer your question? Absolutely. What do you think the university was kind of afraid of? What were they fearful of with you administering advice about nutrition? Do you think they were concerned that it may even cause more anxiety, may cause them off of their medications or were they honestly just scared that, you know, maybe the person would not do well with the nutritional advice you were giving? I don't know. We didn't have a conversation about why it was not, the topic was not open for discussion, let's put it that way. I wasn't invited to talk about what I was doing. It was just the decision was made immediately and was clearly unilateral and wasn't open for discussion.

So I'm not sure what the thinking was behind it. If I had to guess, I would say that it was new and unusual, and I think that it was just unfamiliar. And if you're in charge of a health service and someone on the service is doing something that you might not understand very well, it might make you feel uncomfortable. with, you know, mental towards mental health, are they taught in curriculum or is this something that over practice that you've utilized, you've found it to be a massive benefit? Yeah. So interesting. You know, in four years of medical school, we had maybe two or three hours of nutrition just, just to get the MD, maybe two or three hours of nutrition teaching. And then four years of psychiatry residency, not a word about nutrition. And this is standard across the country.

I believe it's still this way. I think it really needs to change. I would love to be part of changing that. But no, medical school and even residency programs are primarily focused on, unfortunately, medications and surgical interventions and things like that. We spend so much of our time learning about medications, how the medications work, what the side effects are, what the risks and benefits are, how to prescribe them, how to mix them together. And we spend very, very little time learning about prevention and learning about how

the body works when it's healthy. We don't learn a lot about health. We learn a lot about unhealthy bodies and how to manipulate them with medication. So that, you know, that really needs to change too. Most doctors know nothing about nutrition. And unless you teach yourself and become interested in it, and a lot of doctors aren't interested in it. You know, it's not a very sexy, not a very sexy topic. Um, you know, it's a lot more fun to play with gadgets and, you know, learn about these interesting new medications. Um, I understand that it might not seem interesting to a lot of people, but, uh, um, I'm, I'm fascinated by it. So it's just a good fit for me. What impact have you seen in your current practice with being able to help people and turning them on to a different style of diet? Yeah. So it depends on where they're

starting. So a lot of people who consult with me at least these days in my new online consult service, which I set up a couple of months ago, two, three months ago, because they've heard about me through the work that I do in nutrition online and in speaking, et cetera, in writing, they already know a lot about nutrition. And many of them have come to me because they've tried some of the things they've heard about from me or other people, and they're not working as well as they hoped they would. So it's a great challenge for me because I get to say, okay, let's look at what you're doing. Let's look how we can make it even better. And let's look at what some of the obstacles are. Before this special, you know, consult service that I started

up, I was, you know, working with people who were starting from scratch with kind of your standard American diet. And that, with those folks, what I would do is I would work with them to see if they could at least remove the processed foods from their diet. And then if they were interested in going further than that, decide to look at the quality of their diet, if they were eating a plant-based diet to encourage them to supplement, if they were eating a sort of standard diet and they got the processed foods out and they still weren't feeling better, would they be willing to look at a low-carb diet or a ketogenic diet? So lots of different options. But in my current practice, it's more about troubleshooting. So a

lot of people on a carnivore diet who want to troubleshoot or who are on a ketogenic diet or they think they're on a ketogenic diet, but they're really just on a low-carb diet and they're not generating any ketones and they're wondering why their brain isn't working any better. And so that can make a big difference. If you're eating low-carb but you're not generating any ketones, the brain won't necessarily benefit as much as it otherwise could. And some people ask me about supplements or, you know, should they take them? Should they not take them? A lot of people with mental health problems who are taking psychiatric medications and

they want to switch to a ketogenic diet, but they they want information about how that's going to affect their medications and how they can safely adjust them. So a lot of different interesting kinds of questions. It really depends on where people are starting from. Have you seen any difference with utilizing ketone supplements? Have they been effective at all in some of the people that you help? Yeah. And some people have had some benefits from ketone supplements.

And for people who are reluctant to start a ketogenic diet, because it is a lot of work in the beginning to switch your diet to a keto and it takes a while to adapt. Sometimes if they're reluctant, I'll say, well, you could try a ketone supplement and see if it helps because if it helps, that suggests that maybe if you could generate your ketones from inside your body using your diet, that that would also help. So sometimes I use that as like a motivating step, a bridge to help people see the difference. But it doesn't always work. And they're expensive.

And, you know, you have to take them very frequently. I had a woman I was talking with the other day on my consult service who said that she sips ketone esters throughout the day. And it really helps her with her productivity and her motivation because if she just takes the whole flask all once in the morning, it wears off after a couple of hours, which is true. So it depends. I mean, I'm definitely a big fan of generating the ketones from inside your body whenever you can. Any interesting things that you've noticed from supplementation? Like I know there's, you know, just things that you can take to kind of boost your brain and there's

like acetyl L-carnitine and there's nootropics out there that can help. Have you noticed any positive effects for some of the people that you help with some supplementation? I personally haven't had a lot of experience with that and with the people that I've been working with so far, I haven't had a lot of people taking those. Let's see. I talked with somebody who was taking, what was the name of that supplement? Elysium, which I think is an NAD supplement. And ketone supplements, a lot of people take a lot of vitamin supplements.

But in terms of specific nootropics, I haven't come across a lot of that. And I certainly didn't come across a lot of vitamins, supplements, but in terms of specific nootropics, I haven't, I haven't come across a lot of that. And I certainly didn't come across a lot of that. In fact, none of that when I was working in my other settings. So, um, but I'm sure that, uh, you know, certain people will, uh, in the future, I'm sure I'll come across people. I, I think that, um, are you asking because you've had good experiences with nootropics or no people who have? Uh, yeah, I've used, utilized some different things. Uh, acetyl L-carnitine is one, which is just a, uh, amino acid. Um, and then also like things like alpha brain and, and things of that nature. Uh, uh, you know, they've, they've helped me. I don't have, you know, I don't believe I have a mental health disorder. You might tell me otherwise, but I'm pretty even keel.

I don't have a lot of like really highs and lows and things like that, but it has helped me with some focus and things like that. How about you, Andrew? Yeah, no, I was going to say, so how about, you know, if somebody is a little bit down and you're working with their diet, but what about something like 5-HTP or like L-tryptophan? I've read a couple of things here and there about how that's been beneficial for somebody and their mood. So how about like any like mood enhancing type of supplements? Yeah, those can be helpful. I think that,

you know, definitely people have reported to me that they have been helpful in that. And a lot of students used things like that when they would come to me because they would say that they prefer a natural alternative to medication. So they'd be taking 5-HTP or they'd be taking GABA or they'd be taking St. John's Wort or Kava, lots of different kinds of supplements. But obviously, they were coming to me because they still weren't feeling right. And if those things had been working properly, which maybe they do for a lot of people and those people just never came to see me because they were good, you know.

But it's the ones who come to see me would not be getting enough relief from those. So I have a skewed view perhaps of, you know, what's working, what's not working. And I would just always, sort of my approach is to try to optimize brain chemistry through diet first. And then if you can't get as far as you're trying to go, then look at supplements and other kinds of interventions. You know, I think that if there are lots of ways using diet to improve neurotransmitter balance without directly affecting the neurotransmitters through drugs like antidepressants or through things like 5-HTP. So for example, if you take the inflammatory foods out of the diet, then your ability to generate serotonin goes up and your ability to regulate dopamine levels and glutamate levels improves. So just by influencing those pathways at the root rather than trying to put the neurotransmitter in over here at the end, that can be really helpful.

But as a bridge, I think that's fine. And I will sometimes even use medications as a bridge, you know, if someone's really suffering, and it takes a lot of energy, emotional energy to change your diet. So and it takes a lot of willpower and a lot of commitment. And, you know, a lot of people don't have that kind of reserve when they're depressed. And so sometimes we'll even use medications temporarily to bridge that gap so they can feel up to the task of making those changes. It's really cool what you're saying there. So like you're saying that you'll use medications for a little bit of time as you're doing this nutritional intervention to, and slowly wean them off the medication until that intervention with nutrition totally

makes the change for them? Yeah, I've actually done that a lot because, um, especially in my, in my former positions where people would come in in crisis or people would come in and dire straits and, you know, they're not going to wait around to change their diet and wait around six weeks for relief. They've got final exams in two weeks or, you know, they've got things they had to, they've got, or if I was working in my private practice, you know, they've got work and they've got life and they've got kids and they can't, they can't, they can't wait, you know? So, just kind of real world approaches can be more creative. And so sometimes something for anxiety or sleep, or even sometimes something for depression will make a lot of sense, bring somebody some relief,

and then they can come back in and say, okay, I'm feeling well enough now to see if I can work on these other changes. And it buys you some time. How do you measure brain chemistry or are you able to? Yeah, there's no good way to do that. And that's the problem with psychiatry. Yeah. I mean, spinal tap. So you're just going by how people are like what people are reporting back to you is that we're going off of a lot of times? Yeah. The sad truth about psychiatry, and anybody who's been a psychiatrist will tell you this, it's so much trial and error. It's really unfortunate.

We don't have a lot of good tools to directly measure what's going on in the brain. So much of what we measure is in the blood, and the levels of things in the blood usually don't reflect levels in the brain. So many, so much of what we measure is in the blood and the levels of things in the blood usually don't reflect levels in the brain. And so unless you're in a research study and you're doing a spinal tap, for example, where you're measuring serotonin levels, that's, you know, that's something I'm not going to do in my office. Have you maybe seen some, any correlations between like someone coming in and just getting kind of some standard blood work done and maybe like their vitamin D levels are low and like you've been able to help with stuff like that or does that not correlate? Yeah.

So I always, I always recommend blood tests for, for all of my patients in the beginning to check specifically B12, vitamin D, iron levels, thyroid. I check for insulin resistance, so I do a cholesterol panel and fasting insulin, fasting blood sugar, and uric acid. Those are the things that I will recommend for everyone. And if someone's eating a plant-based diet, I'll recommend more extensive nutrient deficiency testing, zinc and B vitamins and other things. So I always do that in the beginning to make sure there isn't some other simple problem that could be causing the mental health disorder. So B12 in particular is a really, really common deficiency that's often missed. What about video games and social media? Are these things partially responsible for people? It seems like these things are on the rise. Seems like you're going to be a busier person as time goes on here. So our video games and like, I guess like what we

consume, what we feed our brain, what we watch on TV, we watch violence, we watch sex, we watch, we play video games and engage in social media for hours on end. Are these things hurting us? Are they negative maybe? Well, they hurt me. I know that I spend way too much time on social media, but I think that one of the, you know, what you said is really important. It's how much time we spend doing these things. Because the brain is really paying attention to everything we do. So this is a good thing and a bad thing. So, you know, if you're feeling depressed or you're really struggling, the brain takes in lots of information, not just

medication. It takes in how much time you're spending in sunlight. It takes in how much exercise. It responds and reacts to good relationships, music, things you enjoy doing, good people around you. It responds to all of those things. And it doesn't just respond to medication and food. But it also responds to how you're spending your time. If you're spending a lot of your time in front of a computer screen, not getting outside, or if you're exposing yourself to a lot of violence or stress or a lot of contentious information in the news, for example, or watching sad news from around the world. I think one of the biggest problems for a lot of the people I work with over time is spending so much time watching

stories about terrible things happening to other people all around the world, especially if you've got PTSD or if you're a very soft-hearted person, if you've been through something difficult, trauma history, or if you're just really-hearted person, if you've been through something difficult, trauma history, or if you're just really sensitive, that stuff really affects you. I mean, we're not, you know, we didn't evolve really to be exposed to every terrible thing that happens all around the planet. We should be paying attention to what's going on in our immediate, with our immediate family and friends and our immediate, our immediate with our immediate family and friends and our immediate circles. But

we get kind of overwhelmed with all of the negative stuff that goes on. On that note of like, you know, social media and paying attention to literally everything around us, I mean, we're connected more so than we've ever been in your practice. Obviously you use nutritional interventions, but are there, what are the cases that you would also, what, how would you prescribe for someone to maybe back off or use these things in a better fashion for themselves if they do have, you know, depression linked to these things? Yeah. I mean, that's where, that's where getting to know somebody over time and building a relationship with them and getting, and, and figuring out just beyond the symptom checklist. This is really the important thing about psychiatry

is going beyond that symptom checklist to understand what a person's life looks like and feels like, and seeing if you can understand what their goals are. And if you're spending a lot of your time doing things that aren't enriching and that aren't making you feel better, then learning how you might work with that person your time doing things that aren't enriching and that aren't making you feel better than learning

how you might work with that person to make, and this is sort of the crux of psychiatry and relationships in general, how can you motivate somebody and help support them to make changes? Because changing habits is really hard. So I think that helping somebody to see and recognize that it's a problem is the first step. And if they don't think it's a problem, you're not going to be able to get anywhere. But if they do think it's a problem, that's just half the battle. The other half is, okay, now what do we do about it? And for each person, it's a little bit different. So sometimes you can enlist the help of other people in the family or friends or other people that they're connected to to help support them in whatever change they're trying to make. But often it's just trying to replace one bad habit with one good habit.

So, you know, for example, people with food addiction, you know, which is really, really common. Food is everywhere. We're surrounded by it. And it's really hard to, if you've been eating in a particular way ever since you were a little kid, it's really hard to change that. But if you become really into, really interested in enjoying exercise for the first time, You can start practicing that. And you know, exercise is very addictive. And it's a healthy addiction for the most part in most people. I mean, it can, like anything, be abused. But then you've replaced an unhealthy habit with

a healthy habit. And you can gradually kind of find a new balance or find something new you enjoy doing um uh usually often something social will be very helpful um so to get you out of your own head and get you connected to other people and thinking about other people's lives not just your own is really good for us after being in this field for so long um are some people just sometimes just not happy with themselves and it's just a hard thing to figure out? Absolutely. You know, some people can only change a little bit. You know, how much somebody can change really varies a lot. And how much somebody is interested in changing really, you know, varies a lot. And there are some people who are just chronically very unhappy with themselves. And the roots of that are very deep. And sometimes it's a, sometimes it has to do with their upbringing. And it's, it's really hard,

really hard when you're, when your foundation is not strong. But, you know, there's definitely a lot that can be done with that but I think the other piece of that puzzle is traits that run in families so sometimes you'll you know when you when you really get to take a good family history which was one of my favorite things to do when I'm getting to know somebody is asking what everyone else is like in the family and sometimes you might just come from a family of sad sacks you You know, like everyone's kind of got a negative outlook on the world and they just kind of, you know, mope around and they're just all, you know, and, you know, you're not going to change somebody's personality. But, you know, I think

almost everybody that I'm working with, the reason why, and this is over the years, not just now with nutrition, but almost everybody I'm working with is coming to me because they do want to work on something. And if they didn't want to work on it, they wouldn't come. So there's usually, you know, if you get to know somebody, they're always, you can find ways of connecting with people and getting to understand them. And there's no recipe. The thing I love most about psychiatry is every single person is different and there's no quick fix and I have to just get to know them. And as I get to know them, I say, oh, I think I have a few ideas, you know, how, you know, how we can work on this problem together. So it really is. There's it just takes time. It just takes time.

Yeah, it's a tough thing to figure out. For somebody that's listening to this that maybe doesn't have the courage to go see somebody like yourself, and maybe they just don't even have a real traumatic experience because that's even more complicated, I guess. But they just don't know where to start. They just typically don't feel great about themselves. What would be a good place to start? Is, is there a podcast or a book or articles that you've written or things that you've read that would be a decent place for someone to start? Oh, that's such a good question because, you know, I, I spend all of, I spent all of my training learning about the biology, the biochemistry, and psychotherapy. And then as I, you know, as my practice matured and I became interested in nutrition,

I now spend all my time studying nutrition. And the psychotherapy skills that I have, I developed over a long period of time, partly through training and partly just through experience. It's kind of hard to summarize those things for somebody else. And I think it's really hard to work on a problem by yourself. It's not impossible, but it's difficult. And you don't have to work on it with a psychiatrist. It's really important to share.

I think if I had to say one thing to people out there, if you can't afford a psychiatrist or a therapist, or you don't want to go see somebody or for whatever reason, having whatever problem you're dealing with, trying to deal with that by yourself is not a good idea. Share it with somebody, anybody to start with. Just start talking about it because it's the ones, it's the problems we don't talk about that really eat away at us and can be so toxic. And so just finding a way, finding a group in your area or finding even an online support community to start, just start practicing, sharing whatever it is you're afraid to talk about, you will find very quickly,

whether it's in your community or online, you will very quickly find other people who are struggling with very similar things because all of us have problems. And it's just, I think that suffering alone is the shame of that. It's really can make everything 10 times worse. You know, a lot of the stuff you're saying is like really hitting close to home for me. And I saw recently, I saw a video from you at Carnivore Con where you were talking about the, you know, a lot of these nutritional interventions in terms of mental health, but you specifically went in on how they can affect individuals with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. And I have individual of my individuals in my life that have those issues.

They go from medication to medication. Things don't seem to work. You know what I mean? So first off, have you dealt with individuals like that where you've actually been able to get them off medications purely by nutrition with that degree of an issue? And if someone does know somebody that's going through that, how, I mean, obviously I like they should just send them to you, but how can, how should they deal with it? What can they do? Yeah. So, you know, these, these are very serious problems, which are heartbreaking, not just for the person who's struggling with them, but for

everybody in their life. And there's a huge risk involved with these disorders. We lose people, as you all know, we lose people every day. And I believe in some cases, needlessly, but in some cases, you know, everything's been tried and it's a mystery why, you know, we can't help. But I would say that with schizophrenia, I don't have any personal experience of yet, anyway, probably because of the environments that I've worked in. I've worked with many, many people with schizophrenia, many, many, many people with bipolar disorder, countless people over the 17 or 18 years I've been practicing, primarily with medications. But I have not yet, and there are some people who have, I've not yet worked personally with

the person with schizophrenia and tried to work with them around nutrition where they were able to tolerate that approach. In many cases, these are students on campus who needed to take a leave of absence, I wasn't able to work with them long enough, or they were too unstable to be able to manage a dietary change. In those cases, I was almost always using medications or other interventions, family interventions, or other types of lifestyle interventions. But with bipolar disorder, it's a different story. So while I know that schizophrenia can be helped by nutritional interventions, we have a few published case reports in the literature,

and I believe there will be some clinical studies coming out, hopefully not too long from now. But there are a few case reports in the literature suggesting that a ketogenic diet can be really, really helpful. But again, it's not an easy thing to do when you're suffering with symptoms of schizophrenia because the disorder itself can make it very hard to follow a new way of eating. Schizophrenia can come with some disorganization of thinking. Yeah. And sometimes that can make it hard to,

without a lot of support to make those changes. But with a bipolar disorder, I've actually worked with quite a few people who have bipolar disorder, which is a much more common disorder than schizophrenia, and comes in various different degrees. There can be very severe bipolar disorder and there can be milder forms. It kind of exists on a spectrum. And I've had quite a few people with bipolar disorder have been able to change their diet and quiet down their mood swings pretty remarkably. And I really do think that there's tremendous potential in bipolar disorder,

even though we don't have the studies published in the literature. We have one case report, a single case report in the literature of two women who changed their diet, ketogenic diet, and they were able to get off their medication, which was Lamictal, Lamotrigine. But in my practice, I've had a lot of good results there. And I think what that speaks to is the similarity between bipolar disorder and epilepsy. They're very, very common. They have a lot of things in common when it comes to brain chemistry and the medications we use for epilepsy and bipolar disorder are often the same medications. So we've known for a hundred years that you can treat epilepsy with a ketogenic diet. So why don't we treat bipolar disorder with a ketogenic diet? It's, you know, psychiatrists use anticonvulsant medications every day

as mood stabilizers. So I think there's a lot of potential there. How, you know, what are some small things that someone can do to feel better? What are some things that you've seen be effective? You mean in terms of nutrition or other, or other types of things? In terms of like, I don't know, trying to turn things around for themselves. Like they're, they're not very happy with themselves. They're just trying to figure out a way of like, I don't know, trying to turn things around for themselves. Like they're, they're not very happy with themselves. They're just trying to figure out a way to like, maybe they're just even in a funk, you know, they just want to feel a little bit better.

What are a couple of things like listening to music, reading a book, like what are some suggestions that you utilized over the years? Yeah. One of the images, one of the images I like to use with people is sort of like, you know, looking at pretending that you're looking down on your brain from the outside. Okay. And what are you going to do? This brain is not doing well. What are you going to do for this brain? Okay. Let's take it out for a walk. You know, let's, let's put it in a room with other brains and see if maybe you can like get a little good energy from somebody else's brain. Cause your energy is low. Let's get some energy from somebody else, right?

That's what we're social creatures. And if you're staying at home by yourself and just watching TV or sitting on your computer, nothing's going to change. So change things up a little, even if it's just taking your brain out for a walk, a little sunshine, a little vitamin D, putting your brain in the room with other brains, listening to music that makes you feel better, playing music yourself, doing something creative, making something new, doing art, being physical, getting some exercise, or trying something new, or helping somebody else. So anything that kind of gets your brain out of its usual pattern, if you get up in the morning and do the same thing every day, nothing's going to change. So it's fine,

just something, any little thing to try to change your usual pattern sometimes will shake things up enough or you'll have a new experience you didn't expect to have. When you take your brain for a walk, you might run into somebody or might see something interesting you hadn't expected to see. You'll have a new experience. So it really, I think, is about changing what you're doing can often change how you're thinking and feeling. So this one, I've actually I've seen a few articles and I don't know if it's specifically true or if it's people on the meat eating side with their own opinions. But I've heard that vegan diets can somewhat promote depression and anxiety and these like those mood disorders. Is there any truth to that? And if there is, why? So a fantastic question. We have no scientific evidence. We have no clinical studies showing us that if you eat a vegan diet, that you will have

a higher risk of depression or anxiety or anything else. We don't have the studies that compare. So all we have to go on is the understanding of brain chemistry and what nutrients the brain requires in order to function properly. So if you're eating a vegan diet and you are not supplementing properly, I think what's really important for people to know is that if you're eating only plants, no animals, no milk, no eggs, no cheese, no meat, seafood, poultry, you're only eating plants and you're not taking any supplements, that's a fatal diet. That's a diet that will kill you in the long run because you're not getting any vitamin B12. And there are many other nutrients you're going to be low in. And we have lots of studies

showing us that people who eat a vegan diet are at higher risk for certain nutrient deficiencies. It's not that people who eat a vegan diet are the only people who are at risk for nutrient deficiencies. Many of us have nutrient deficiencies, but vegans are at slightly higher risk, in some cases significantly higher risk for certain nutrient deficiencies. And we know that nutrient deficiencies can cause mental health disorders. But this begs the question, if you carefully supplement, properly supplement your vegan diet, will you be at higher risk for mental health disorders?

We don't know. And maybe you're not, because as long as you're dealing with those nutrient deficiencies, maybe you're fine. But I would also say that if you're eating a whole foods plant-based diet without any of the junk in it, and you're carefully supplementing foods plant-based diet without any of the junk in it, and you're carefully supplementing with algae-based omega-3, which is really, really

important, DHA and EPA, not the stuff from flaxseed. That's the wrong kind of omega-3. Omega-3 from algae. If you're supplementing B12, vitamin K2, check yourself for zinc and iron. You may need zinc and iron supplementation. If you're supplemented properly and your lab work looks good, you may be okay. But plant foods also contain many toxins and anti-nutrients which interfere with our ability to utilize nutrients properly. And if you have gut damage or if you have immune system damage, some of those plant toxins could be working against you, particularly gluten. And there are even compounds in dairy products

which have been associated with higher risk of mental illness. So if you're eating a whole foods plant based diet and you're carefully supplementing and you're still not feeling well, you may need to make additional changes. But we have no scientific proof that eating a whole foods carefully supplemented plant based diet is any riskier than eating any other way. What about just a standard American diet that has to have negative impact on the brain, right? Yes. There's a lot of good information about that. There's no question about this, that a standard American diet, which we now have exported around the world is very, very, it's come with a skull and crossbones on it.

USA, USA. Yeah, there's, you know, it's you can make a logical jump on that one, too. Even without the research, you can say, you know, look, the overconsumption of food and the way that we eat here in America has clearly hurt our heart. It's hurt our liver. We know that too much alcohol can hurt the liver. We know that a bad diet could lead to diabetes. So if these things are going to affect our pancreas, our liver, and our heart, it makes sense that if we're not eating correctly, that it could be highly impacting our brain. And there's some links to Parkinson's disease, right? Is that correct?

Yes. You know, so the brain, uh, you know, studies have conclusively shown the brain is part of the body. And so the food affects the body in a negative way. It's obviously going to also affect the brain in a negative way. Um, and that the whole brain and the brain isn't divided into, this is the depression area, and this is the Parkinson's area, and this is the Alzheimer's area. The whole brain is being affected by how you live your life. And so, if you're not eating properly, taking care of yourself, you put yourself at risk for all kinds of brain disorders. And the ones that you will get will be determined by your genetic history. It's not that genes in most cases cause those disorders is that genes will tell your body, which disorder you're going to get if you don't live your life in a healthy way.

How do you, what's, how do you eat? You know, what is, what does your diet look like? Well, it's pretty boring. So I, I've for, ate a low-carb diet, and then I went to a low-plant ketogenic diet when I figured out all my food sensitivities, you know, in my early 40s, about 10 years ago. I ate a very low-plant ketogenic diet, which worked great for me until I hit 53 and perimenopause arrived, which was just delightful. So some hormonal changes and I started getting some hot flashes and migraines came back and I started gaining weight on a ketogenic diet, which was demoralizing. So I had to change my diet again. And at that point I decided, okay, I will remove all the few remaining plants from my diet. And now I eat a carnivore diet. I've been doing that since the end of May 2018. So almost a year now. And that was the key, taking those few plants out,

uh, taking the, those few plants out, uh, helped with all of those things I mentioned. Um, and so far I've lost 24 pounds and, um, the migraines are gone and I just, I feel so much better. Um, but my diet is really boring. So I eat, uh, poultry, it's mostly duck, uh, some chicken and Turkey, uh, supplement that with a little duck fat because the chicken doesn't really have a lot of fat. And I eat lamb because I don't tolerate beef or pork well, but red meat seems to be important into how I feel. And some seafood. So it's not very interesting, but it really works for me. Do you utilize red meat almost as a supplement? Because you mentioned that like you sometimes have a hard time, you know, maybe, maybe digesting

it. So do you still eat red meat here and there too? Yeah, I eat lamb in particular very often. And because I, because I don't do well with beef and I do really feel that if I don't eat it regularly, I, I, I feel I'm missing something. It's hard to put my finger on, but I actually get cravings for it. And it seems to be more nutritious, feels more nutritious. And most of the poultry that I eat is duck. The duck serves a very similar purpose. It's a redder meat and it's just

more nutritious than chicken or turkey. So right now you're doing a carnivore diet. Now, if you could think back before you perimenopause and those issues, if you look back on things, would you tell yourself five, 10 years ago, do a carnivore diet now? Or would you prescribe a carnivore diet mainly for certain issues? question too. So knowing what I know now, if I could turn the clock back, if I could go all the way back to childhood, I would eat a whole foods omnivorous pre-agricultural diet, like a paleo style diet. That's what I would do to protect myself from what I think that would, my hypothesis is, I believe, that that would protect me from a lot of the problems that came for me later. So I had insulin resistance. I have insulin resistance. I was overweight even as a little kid. So, you know, struggled with my weight all my life. And so back then I would have switched from my paleo diet to a low carbohydrate paleo diet

to deal with that. I would try to avoid antibiotics and other kinds of, you know, pesticides and other kinds of environmental exposures to try to keep my microbiome and my gut health intact so I wouldn't develop all the sensitivities to plant foods that I have. intact so I wouldn't develop all the sensitivities to plant foods that I have. But if I were young, I'd say paleo diet is, I think, a really good diet. And by that, I mean meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, certain vegetables, fruits, nuts if you want. And that diet is, I think that's a pretty healthy diet for most people. I can't say whether a carnivore diet is even healthier. We don't have the kind of science that we need to say that for sure. But my reading of the science that we do have suggests it may be.

But to go to that extent, if you don't need to, it's, you know, it's difficult. It's difficult to remove all the plant foods from your diet and it's socially difficult and it's psychologically difficult. So, you know, as Amber O'Hearn likes to say, if you don't have to eat a carnivore diet, why would you? diet, why would you? But if you want to, if you simply are trying to achieve optimum health, I think it's possible that a carnivore diet is healthier than other diets because it has everything in it that you need and nothing in it you don't need and nothing in it you don't want. So I don't see any advantages to adding plants except psychologically

and socially. But, you know, so if you're a health perfectionist, if you want to see if you can optimize your health, I think a carnivore diet makes sense. If you do it a certain way, it can be really, really healthy. But, you know, you didn't hear it from me. I've heard many women say that they've kind of struggled on a ketogenic style diet. What do you think the difference was for you with the ketogenic diet versus carnivore diet? I did hear what you said about the vegetables, but was there also maybe a shift in the macronutrients that you were taking in? Um, maybe with the carnivore diet, it's higher protein and a little less fat. Maybe it's not even a ketogenic style diet. Yeah. I'm glad you asked me that because, uh, one of the real

surprises for me when I switched from keto to carnivore was on keto, I had to be really careful with protein intake. Um, I had to count my protein grams and my carbohydrate grams. So I'd keep my carbohydrates under 20. And some days I wouldn't eat any at all, but you know, most days I'd have 10 or so, sometimes up to 20. And I had to keep my protein limited to around between 70 to 80 grams a day. And I had to actually measure until I got the hang of it. I had to keep it in that range. And if I didn't, I would get hungry or I would gain weight or, you know, I'd lose my ketones or my blood sugar would go up. So it was kind of a hassle.

Worth it, but still. And then when I switched to carnivore, I was able to eat two to three times more protein. I didn't have to count anything. I didn't have to weigh anything. I didn't have to weigh anything. I didn't have to measure anything. I just eat until I don't feel like I need to eat more. I eat to satiety. It usually ends up being twice a day. I eat a little bit more on days when I'm exercising more. I find that I need a little bit more, but I can trust my appetite on this diet, which is a revelation like that. I've never been able to trust my appetite. So I think that's for me, that small amount of plant food for I'm sure many reasons, some mysterious, was interfering with my ability to, was interfering with my good metabolism.

George, do you think that the carnivore diet, it's possible that the carnivore carnivore diet could have been the answer this whole time or did the whole you know the way your body changed, you weren't able to eat the same diet as you were as a kid. Did all of this have to happen in order for the diet to find you today in order for it to be, um, in order for yourself to be successful on it? Well, I think, uh, I think if I had eaten a carnivore diet as a kid, I would have been much healthier kid. Um, you know, I was just, I was unhappy. I was overweight. I was, you know, growing up overweight is really hard as a kid,

and especially going through adolescence for any boy or girl is just a nightmare. And so I wouldn't wish that on any kid, and I wish that more kids knew that if they cut the carbs down, they could have so much more control over the metabolism and probably in most cases easily lose that weight without having to count calories or exercise vehemently. So in some ways I wish, I think if someone had told me as a kid to eat a carnivore diet,

I wouldn't have done it. But if they had told me to stop, if they told me to eat a low-carb diet I wouldn't have done it. But if they had told me to stop, if they told me to eat a low carb diet, I would have done it in a second. I mean, I was already counting every calorie and exercising religiously and having no success. So it was, you know, it's really so frustrating. I like what you said there at the end. That's the whole reason why we have a podcast, you know, is because there's a lot of people that are exercising and there's a lot of people that are trying to diet. Like they're on a diet, they're on a plan. They're legitimately trying. They're not sure if they're trying hard enough. They're not sure if they're trying too hard.

They're just, it just sucks. You know, they're just, they're just really lost and they're trying to find answers. And I think, you know, luckily the carnivore diet, the keto diet, a lot of these different, a lot of different information, flexible dieting, a lot of the information out there now has really, uh, helped a lot of people, which is just, it's amazing to see. You mentioned you eat twice a day. Um, do you like intentionally mess with any like real fasting or is it just kind of you just eat when you're hungry type deal? Yeah, no, I don't intentionally fast. And I don't feel like I need to on this diet anyway. You know, as I said, it kind of, I kind of trust my, my appetite on

this diet and I just naturally eat less often. And I think that that's good. When I was on a keto diet, I felt I needed to eat three or four times a day. When I was in a standard American diet, I felt I needed six, seven, eight times a day. So, you know, something's moving in the right direction. And, you know, what's interesting is that, you know, when I'm traveling, like, for example, I was just a couple of weeks ago in Indonesia for Low Carb Indonesia, which was an amazing experience. When I was there, there were stretches of time when I didn't have the ability to eat what I needed to eat. And that just happens when you're traveling sometimes. And so there were periods of time when I had to go very long stretches without food.

And I'd rather do that than eat something that's going to make me feel bad, you know, give me a headache or make me exhausted. And then I won't be able to speak in front of an audience or be able to stay up late and be with people. So long story short, I get, I, if I don't, if I, if I go too long without food, I get bad headaches and it starts to get hard for me to concentrate. And then I eat and I feel fine. So it doesn't feel to me as though I would benefit from going longer stretches without eating.

I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel to me like that's necessary in my case. But if you're eating a keto diet or a standard diet or a paleo diet, intermittent fasting may be important if you're not getting the results you want. Are you super sensitive to like even just a small amount of ingredients being in something? Like nowadays there's a little bit more convenient stuff out there. There's like bars that are just kind of like made out of like elk and bison and things like that. Are you able to eat some of those things or because they have like cranberry in them and they have different vegetables, can you not eat them? Well, here's the sad thing about bars. The sad thing about bars is they're,

they're not fresh. And so I have something called histamine intolerance, which is just lovely to have, which means that you can't have aged foods. You can't have cured or processed or smoked or any of that. And so I avoid all the bars and try to just eat. Now, in a pinch, I might turn to something like that. But it's been a long time since I have because it's just usually not worth it for me. And if I might go back to that intermittent fasting question, I wanted to mention one more thing about fasting, if it's okay. Which is, as a psychiatrist, I've worked with quite a few people who have taken fasting to an unhealthy extreme. And I've worked with a lot of people who are intentionally ignoring hunger cues, underfeeding themselves,

trying to go longer for the sake of, I don't know, the longer you fast, the better, some sort of virtuous goal or imagining that they are this autophagy where you're sort of eating, your system is cannibalizing all of its unhealthy cells. Like people are imagining that the longer they do it, the healthier they are. And I think that it can be abused and misused just like any plan can be. and misused just like any plan can be. And I have worked with quite a few people who are starving themselves because they have perfectionistic tendencies or competitive tendencies, OCD tendencies, kind of obsessive compulsive. It's really important to make sure you're not overdoing that because the brain needs certain nutrients very frequently. And a lot of the vitamins are water soluble. And if you're not eating regularly, you won't be getting everything you need. So

be careful. I was just going to say, you just described the two guys that you're looking at right now. That's very true. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. Yeah. Throwing us under the bus here. So let me ask this. So like I was actually going to ask in terms of your practice, you've fasting isn't something that you've ever suggested that somebody do. And the main reason why I ask you this is like I'm an athlete. So I do have long fasting periods and fasting windows. And I make sure that in the windows that I do eat, whether it be four or six hours, I eat a lot of food. And I've personally noticed, so this is purely anecdotal, I'm fairly an even keel individual, but I've had much less downs, you know, as I've picked up this habit. And it could be, it might not just be the fasting, it could be a lot of the other habits that fasting has helped me picked up. I nowadays gravitate more towards whole foods. I don't snack anymore. And that started after I started picking up intermittent

fasting. So I'm one of those individuals that make sure that I eat enough food. But is it ever something that you would suggest to anybody or is it just you're just like it can lead down some dark roads? Stay away. Well, so may I say you look well nourished. Hasn't missed a meal in a very long time. I'm not worried about you. And you seem like a lovely person, quite even keeled and well balanced and all. But I think that, so I don't often recommend intermittent fasting. That's not usually where I'll begin with somebody. A lot of the people that I work with already practice intermittent fasting because, again, a lot of the people, I think it's a self-selecting population.

A lot of people are coming to me, have already tried five, six, seven different strategies, and they're looking for additional help. And for some people, that's already part of their practice, and they're happy with it, and that's okay. I just make sure that they're getting enough food. But I don't usually start there. I usually start with food quality first and the metabolic impact of the food. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of the benefits you're noticing are partly to do with intermittent fasting. I mean, any strategy that lowers insulin levels and allows your body to spend less time in that fed state is healthy as long as it's not taken to an extreme. It's really good for us to practice. So there are cases where I'll recommend someone practice eating less often.

I don't always call it intermittent fasting, especially for someone who's really food addicted. And what the problem they're dealing with is they're anxious. They're worried if they don't eat often enough, something terrible is going to happen. And they have to have food with them everywhere they go. And they're really obsessed with food. And they're really worried that what if they don't get enough? Sometimes this has to do with a childhood trauma around not enough food in the house, that sort of thing, or other issues. So sometimes I'll have people practicing this often to show them it's going to be okay if you don't eat every two hours. And as a sort of a behavioral strategy. But

metabolically, I usually like to look at the food first and then intermittent fasting. Eating once a day, I don't consider fasting. It's skipping whole days or several days. That's where I start to think of it as fasting. Okay. How do we help our children? I got, I got two kids, uh, an 11 year old and a 15 year old. And, uh, both of them are relatively healthy and stuff like that, but like, they still, they still want to eat junk. They're kids. They want to eat ice cream and things like that. How do we, you know, how do we lay down some, um, some laws, but also have it be healthy and not be too annoying as a parent. You're in a tough spot as a parent, especially where you've got 11 and 15, because,

well, especially 15. So teenagers, for the most part, have a lot of their habits already formed, and they have a lot of control over their diet when they're spending a lot of time with their friends and a lot less time at home. It's very hard to control what they're eating. All you can do is set a good example and explain to them why you're concerned about including too many of the wrong foods in their diet because you care about them and you want them to be healthy, strong, vibrant people. Younger than that, before high school, you have a lot more control over what kids are eating. And you can even, I've worked with some parents who have been amazing, just they'll go to their school and they'll say, you know, there are some foods for my child's health, I really don't want them to be having these foods. So I send, I'm going to send them with these, you know, with

this food that I want them to eat. Now, this works great if you've got a kid with an allergy or a sensitivity. Everyone in the school agrees. But if you send your kid a low-carb lunch, no one's going to support them. So it really is about teaching at home and modeling at home and eating meals together and showing your kids a healthy way to eat so that they know that that's the way that they should eat and that's where their family eats that's healthy for them and explain to them, yeah, it's just

like alcohol. You're going to send your kid out into the world. They're going to be exposed to other things. They're going to be tempted. You got to teach them those values, model for them what's right, and know that they're obviously going to experiment with other things and say, but just keep, teach them why those foods aren't good for them and why they need to be careful with them.

And, and, and then you send them off into the world and, and, and see what they do with that information. But it's, if you set a good example, that's one of the most powerful. They'll absorb a lot of that. If they look up to and respect you, they'll take a lot of that with them. Yeah, I feel pretty good about that because I've been teaching my children about nutrition from when they were really young. And now I I'll still give them like, you know, an evil eye when they order a Coke at a restaurant and stuff like that. But for the most part, I let off them because, you know, they're, they're on their own now, you know, so to speak. So they, they get to kind of do their own thing. What does it look like when you go out with your friends on like, you know, you go out,

you know, on a Saturday and you go to a restaurant is, you know, Georgia Eats sitting there with a big old, like a tomahawk steak. And then you got your friends there with like the little salad and stuff like that? And my friends all know I'm crazy and they, they put up with me. I guess the, I guess I've weeded out the riffraff by now. Anybody who doesn't want to spend any time with me is gone. But no, I mean, I, I, I, I think I'm pretty easy to eat with. I'm not the food police. I don't bring my nutrition values up to eat with me. I'm an eat and let eat person. And so you can have whatever you want.

And if they're having something, they always say, most of the time they'll feel bad. Like, oh, I'm so sorry that I'm going to get this. Is that going to bother you to have this? And I say, no, no, no. Have whatever you want. Just describe it to me. Just tell me what it tastes like. Do me a favor and just let me kind of enjoy it with you vicariously.

But no, I have pretty good boundaries around that. And I think I'm pretty easy to talk to about it. Like I don't get defensive about it. I don't get judgmental about it. And I think that can be, you know, for people with special diets, sometimes it's hard not to talk about your special diet to other people. And that just gets really annoying and old after a while and kind of preachy. And no, I wouldn't be any fun to be around if I was sitting at dinner

telling you what you should eat and why I eat what I eat. Are you able to eat dairy? No. Not even like butter or nothing like that? No, the dairy doesn't agree with me at all. And I will admit to you and the world that I love dairy. And when I, what's the right word, deviate from my current plan during moments of weakness, it's with dairy.

It's really, really hard to stay away from it completely. And so, but I do best when I don't have it. And I am concerned about dairy in the diet. I know that it's not good for me. I am concerned about dairy in the diet. I know that it's not good for me. You know, dairy is not something we've really evolved to, you know, have beyond the age of two or three.

And it has real hormonal effects on the body. It puts us into growth and storage mode. It affects our own insulin and IGF-1 levels, et cetera. And, you know, not everybody, I mean, power lifters maybe, but not everybody wants to be in growth and storage mode every day. What exactly do you mean by growth and storage mode? High insulin and growth factor levels where you're telling your body to grow rather than, you know, sort of what intermittent fasting does is sort of takes a break from that fed state and lets everything quiet down. And so the other thing about dairy is that most people are sensitive to it and don't realize it because they've been eating it every single day

since they were small, you know, yogurt and cheese and uh, all kinds of things. And they don't realize it's causing their headaches or their chronic pain or their aches and pains or their sleep problems or their skin problems or their digestive problems. And so it's a really common culprit in acne. It's a really common culture in corporate and digestive problems, especially in little kids and babies, um, don't do well with, with, uh, cows dairy. So, um,. So, you know, it's one of those trigger foods for a lot of people, but it is really delicious. What connections have you seen with being able to help people with their sleep in terms of their mental health? Oh, that's a great question. So sleep is super important, obviously.

And nutrition-wise, there are strong connections between nutrition and sleep. So for example, just taking out the refined carbohydrates, for example, if you take out the sugar and the flour and all those things that give you those big insulin spikes, what you've done then is you're taking yourself off that internal hormonal roller coaster of adrenaline levels going up and down and glutamate levels. Glutamate's a neurotransmitter in the brain that you can think of as the brain's gas pedal. If you eat too many refined carbohydrates or other inflammatory foods, including the refined seed oils, the vegetable oils, you can flood your brain with glutamate. It can rise to 100 times its usual level. And that just puts the entire brain into overdrive every time you do that. So that's, I think, one of the key reasons why people who don't eat the right way have mood swings and crashes throughout the day and cravings and feel anxious, panicky.

And that can happen at night when you're sleeping too. So that can wake you up in the middle of the night. You can wake up with a panic attack and not even feel anxious. And why am I waking up with a panic attack in the middle of the night? Why am I so hungry in the middle of the night? So one thing is getting the junk out of the diet can improve sleep a lot. And for some people, being in the diet can improve sleep a lot. For some people, being in ketosis can improve sleep a lot because you're quieting down inflammation and oxidation in the brain and it allows the brain to rest.

The other thing that can be very helpful is that if you remove a lot of the junk from the diet, what you're doing is you're allowing more of the tryptophan, tryptophan is an amino acid from protein, you're allowing more of that tryptophan to travel down the pathway that makes serotonin and melatonin. And melatonin is your brain's natural sleep cycle regulator. So a lot of people take melatonin supplements. It might be more effective to go to the root of the problem and make sure that you're not hijacking your tryptophan to go down different pathways by eating the processed foods. So you can naturally make more melatonin if you eat whole foods. So you can naturally make more melatonin if you eat whole foods.

Anybody else got any other questions over there? I guess I do. It's a little bit off topic, but you had mentioned when you were in school how much time was spent on nutrition. Is there or I guess how much time is spent on the benefits of exercise, especially when it comes to mental performance and that sort of thing? Exercise gets talked about a lot kind of generically, at least when I was in school. I mean, I was in medical school in the early 90s. It may be talked about a lot more now.

I don't know. We didn't talk about it much at psychiatry residency, but the times that we did talk about exercise in residency and in medical school, it was kind of just very generically, exercise is good for you. Exercise is healthy. We didn't talk about why it was healthy, what exactly it was doing for your metabolism. We now understand a lot more about that. And for a lot of the people that I'm counseling, if they've got their diet just right and they're not exercising, it's one of the things I can, one of the ways I can be helpful is to say, you know, metabolism, taking care of yourself is not just about what you eat. It's about how you use your body and, you know, really helping with

insulin resistance is to build some muscle, you know, not just go for a jog or a walk, as a lot of my patients walk. Walking doesn't usually cut it in terms of, and you guys know this, for improving your metabolic health. It's better than nothing. But if you're not doing some resistance training, some strength training. You're not asking anything new of yourselves. You're not challenging your body. And I know for myself as an aging person, the growth hormone levels are dropping. And so if I can do some more strength training, which I incorporate into my exercise now, which I used to years ago, and I've reincorporated it now, it makes a huge difference in how I feel. And I can literally feel

my metabolism kind of kicking in, so to speak, when I do that kind of exercise as opposed to just walking or even running or swimming, huge difference. So that's something that like resistance training, something that you would suggest and you do continue to suggest to your clients for almost all situations. Absolutely. Especially as you're getting older, where you're losing growth hormone and you need to be stimulating yourselves, giving them that signal so that you're challenging them to do something new. And that's good for your brain as well as for your body. Glad I got my mom lifting weights. That's fantastic.

Yeah. Lifting weights is, you know, I used to kind of tell people like, you know, just find some form of exercise that you like. And, you know, as I've kind of learned more and rubbed elbows with people like yourself, I'm just like, you know what? Everybody needs to lift. Everybody needs to pick up some weights. You know, everybody needs some resistance training because it's just, it's too beneficial and it's too hard to try to mimic in really any other way. You know? I completely agree. You know, when I was first starting to reincorporate exercise into my regime, after I, when I switched to carnivore and I had more energy, I was feeling better and I was able to start exercising again. I used to run. So it's like, oh, I'll start running again. And I actually started running with weights. I started doing

some slow jogging and running. I was like, this probably looks ridiculous, but I don't care. So it just really, oh, it just felt so much better. And I mean, I use weights at home as well. And but even when I go for a walk, if a friend of mine wants to go for a walk, I have a lot of friends now in my 50s, they want to go for a walk. I'll go for a walk with you, but I bring my weights with me. And it just kicks it up a little a notch. And it's more interesting to less boring.

I think a lot of people look at exercise as being this like big, hard thing, you know, they, they, that they have to, you know, go in the gym and do this really brutal thing, but you can, you can make it pretty simple. A lot, you know, a little goes a long way. What are your workouts look like? Like you just kind of, uh, you got some dumbbells at the house and you do a bunch of different things with the dumbbells pretty much. Yeah. So, I mean, and I'm working my way up. So, you know, I've got, I've got my, my 10 pound weights at home and you know, I do a lot of writing and reading and researching and, you know, sitting and doing consults online. And so my work is very sedentary. And so when I need a break, I will just grab my weights and just start using them.

You know, I'll do squats and I'll do push-ups and things like that. And I'll use my weights at home. Or like I said, I'll go for a walk with my friends and take the weights with me. Do sit-ups, like things that I've always, well, for many years, when I was in my 20s and 30s, I had an exercise regime that didn't help me that much with the diet I was eating back then. But the results I get now on a healthy diet are really, I get a lot more out of my workouts now. It takes less time and it feels better and I don't hurt afterwards.

And it's just easier. I feel my body wants to be moving and I want to be challenging it so I want to work my way up to use heavier weights and so I'm open to suggestions to what you would recommend yeah actually I'm thinking about it I'm like we should send out some products to you we'll send you out a slingshot which helps with your push-ups and we'll send you out a hip circle which is a really good product to help kind of like warm up your hips. It'll work your butt, work your hamstrings, stuff like that. So we'll get some products out there. I would love that because I need, I need to spice it up and I need to, I need to

take it to the next level. That's right. Hey, it was great having you on the show. Really appreciate it. Where can people find you? great having you on the show. I really appreciate it. Where can people find you? So I'm on Twitter at GeorgiaEatMD. My last name is spelled E-D-E. I'm on Twitter pretty much every day. I'm on Facebook, GeorgiaEatMD. I have a website, DiagnosisDiet.com. And I write a lot for Psychology Today. So I write about three times a quarter for them. All those articles, almost all of them are about nutrition and mental health a lot of good information it's all free and I'm going to be speaking

in Switzerland in June Keto Live Switzerland in June and if people want to talk to me for consults it's on my website there's a consultation tab you can find out all the information there if you're curious about how that works. So pretty easy to find. Great. Thank you so much for your time.

I really appreciate it. It was great talking to all of you. Thank you very much. Have a great day. You too. Sick. Yes. That was great.

It was. sick yes very great no it was it's it's really cool how like you know from from our sector i guess whenever you look at nutrition we're just paying attention to you know losing body fat or gaining muscle you don't pay much attention to what it does up here yeah you know yeah i think she was the uh i mean i know she's not like full crazy carnivore even though that is her diet right now but i would say she's the most relatable person that we've had on that is following the carnivore diet. You know, like she straight up said, like, I love dairy, but I can't have it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just very cool. And her opinion, she didn't think dairy was really all that great for anybody. But when it came to vegetables, she was a little bit more open. She was like, look, they probably don't bother some people that much. So not a huge deal. She didn't seem like she was, uh, like a tyrant against like carbohydrates either. It seemed like she was like, you know, some people, you know, some people eat them here and there. It's not a big deal. Yeah. A lot of times we get people on that are, you know, maybe more like, uh, Dr. Baker or, uh, Paul,

where they're really, really, they got that one side. Furman. They're not, yeah, Furman. Yeah, they just, this is my side. I'm setting my stake down, so to speak, and I'm believing in this, and that's it. There's no other way of doing it. Yeah, so I thought she was great.

She was just saying, eat whole foods. If you can manage to eat a whole food diet, you know, take out processed foods. Cool. And in general, I don't think anyone can really dispute that. That's, that's good for you. I mean, there's going to be the IFYMers that come in, they're like, ah, I can make this fit and that fit and that's cool and all. But like, even I've noticed that, you know, less processed foods, I feel better. It's just, okay, I can have these foods, but I don't have to have these foods. Right, yeah. I always thought it was interesting with like flexible dieting and if it fits your macros,

it's like as somebody was like prepping to get like photos done or as somebody was prepping for like a bodybuilding show, of course they're still going to throw in like their pizza or whatever because because they're really like working super hard, like to fit it in there so they can get the Instagram picture or whatever, or talk about it on YouTube. But it's like, guys, do you not see that the diet that you're following is the exact same diet that bodybuilders have been following for the last like 40 years? You know, it's like, that's a bodybuilding diet. It's no longer, if it fits your macros. You have really low amounts of fat every day. The protein is through the roof

and the carbohydrates are kind of like depending on the person. They might be higher or lower, but it's relatively the same, right? Exactly. No, they slowly start getting rid of those fun foods, even though they could fit them. Most of them,

especially when they want to get to elite levels conditioning, they start removing these foods because they don't fill you up as much. They don't feel as good. You know, they rev your appetite up. It's not, it's not as useful. So it just ends up turning into that. But when they're bulking and they want to be fat for no reason, then I'll eat all this crap. And it's a, then it's game on. Yeah. Nutrition is really crazy. Something that has hit me like a ton of bricks more recently is how simple nutrition really is. And then how difficult everybody tries to make it to be. Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy. Somebody might be able to explain how a fucking rocket works or something.

Right. And it, and it might be so smart that they can like simplify it for you, but it's still not easy to like retain the information. It's still not easy to, it's not easy to, it's simple for us to sit here and say, you need to lift weights. And here's seven reasons why, you know, there are 17 reasons why. That's very simple, but it's not easy to like put into play, especially if you never had those habits before. And you just mentioned it habits, just like she mentioned, she's had a clients that for example, they're growing up and they don't have food in the house. So as they get older, they're like, I got to always be eating something and maybe they gain some weight. How hard is it to lose

the habit? You know, you have this intrinsic feeling of lack, right? I don't know what that feels like. And it'd be difficult to have to help an individual, even though we know how easy it is, to have to get rid of that keystone habit. I think the biggest thing isn't even that nutrition is complex, is that we all have these habits that are going to be hard to break. And we got to actually figure out what are these habits are, what these habits are so that we can make that change. Yeah. And if you think about like us, like we like, we like to lift. So fortunately that's a good habit. What if somebody came up to you on the street and they said, Hey man,

that's it. No more lifting. You'd be like, what? Like, yeah, you got to figure out, you know, the next 30, it's 30 day challenge. Next 30 days. Can't lift at all. Be like, not at all. Can't go to the gym. Can't like, what about, you know, and you, you'd be asking questions and you would, it'd be the same thing. You know, if in semen, I went to somebody said, yeah, dude, you can't have any pasta or bread. They'd be like, what? I can't. What about spaghetti and meatballs? Like that's pasta dickhead. You know, what about a, what about a cheeseburger? That's bread asshole. You know, like, you know, what about a, what about a cheeseburger? That's bread asshole. You know, like you, you would jump on them right away. Right.

But it's, uh, it's hard, man. It's hard. It's very, very rare. And people need to be patted on the back more when they do make a change. When you see somebody that makes a change, you need to high five that son of a bitch, you know, because it's hard. It's really, really difficult. I mean, what if someone just came up to you and said, Hey, you're not allowed to listen

to podcasts for the next two, weeks even that's difficult I mean and now you're trying to that wouldn't even be that difficult because it's not something that you actually truly need the food the pulses to eat the urges to eat are going to hit you every day all day long and then the commercials and you see other people eating and trigger triggers you to go go and eat I mean man it's a tough it's a tough battle to make a change. Yeah. I know it's really specific towards, uh, towards Georgia, but, um, when she mentioned how, when she was keto, she's eating like 70 grams of protein a day. And then she went carnivore, she's eating two to three times. That could be like one 40 to two 20, 230 grams of protein.

She was eating two meals a day and she lost like 24 pounds. A big idea from there is, yeah, she eliminated some plant foods, et cetera, but you just ate more protein, which is satiating. You know what I mean? A lot of us, a lot of the standard American diet for a lot of people doesn't really include a lot of protein. So an easy way for you not to feel as hungry all the time is eating more protein. Yeah. And just straight up, you know, straight up protein. I know a just straight up, you know, straight up protein. I know a lot of the stuff that we talk about in this show is, especially lately, has been like more carnivore, more keto, which you're trying to think protein and fat, protein

and fat, protein and fat. And then it's not easy to find forms of protein that are just protein. You know, it's kind of hard. Maybe you got like egg whites and chicken breasts or something like that. But even, you know, even in times where you're going to, you know, go off the diet a little bit, maybe you just make simple, just do simple stuff. Like maybe you get a little extra meat on the burger, get a double patty and eat the burger first, even with the bun and then eat some of the fries. But try not to, you know, hopefully by doing that over a period of time, you eat less of the fries. You know, hopefully over time you start to get more satiated because you're eating more of the correct foods.

One thing I really love about, you know, fasting. I love that she said she eats twice a day, but she doesn't focus in on fasting. She's obviously fasting, but she's just not viewing it that way because she's just doing probably small bouts of fasting. She even said that it's like a, she doesn't consider it fasting if it's only 20 or whatever hours. She considers it's more like two or three days. Right. That makes sense.

And that's why it's important to say intermittent fasting or that you're kind of, uh, you know, breaking up these fasts with some different things. But something that she shared that was great, she just said, you know, replace one bad habit with a good one. So that's, you know, that's gotta be easy enough for everybody. I mean, let's just say every morning that you love to have a donut on your way to work. Well, maybe instead of the donut, maybe you just fast or maybe the fasting is way too hard. And you're like, dude, I can't fast versus having a donut. Well then have an omelet, have a couple

eggs, you know, do something, you know, whatever that place is that you go to, to get the donuts, don't go there anymore, you know? And, and maybe even replace that habit with a, with like a walk, like you, you had a negative and now you added a positive and it's like, now you have things going, you know, now you have things going your way, a double positive almost because you got rid of one bad thing and you replaced it with something good. So pretty cool. Awesome having her on the show. I thought she had a lot of great points and hopefully it helps people.

I love the fact that she had such a huge mental health background because I think everyone, everyone's always trying to figure out, you know, how do I just feel? Why was I pissed off yesterday? That wasn't cool. Like, why was I kind of an off yesterday? That wasn't cool. Why was I kind of an asshole yesterday? That wasn't good. I don't think it's avoidable completely, but for some people that are really suffering, some people that are really struggling,

I know that we've all been affected by people with mental issues. And so it's great to have somebody like that that can help a lot of our listeners out with some of these, these more complicated things that people run into. Strength is never weak. This week, this never strength. Catch you guys later.