Mark Bell's Power Project - MBPP EP 685 - Rollo Tomassi: Men NEED To Understand These STATS on Modern Dating, Marriage & Divorce

Episode Date: March 1, 2022

Sometimes called the "Godfather of the Red Pill", Rollo Tomassi has been a permanent fixture in the 'Manosphere' for 20 years. With a focus on evolutionary psychology and objectivism, Rollo brings a pragmatic, nuts & bolts, approach to intersexual dynamics, men and women's innate natures and their effects on today's society. Follow Rollo on IG: https://www.instagram.com/rational_male/ Subscribe to Rollo's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/RolloTomassi Rollo's Books on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Rollo-Tomassi/e/B00J2165RA Special perks for our listeners below! ➢https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT for 15% off site wide including Within You supplements! ➢https://eatlegendary.com Use Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢Bubs Naturals: https://bubsnaturals.com Use code POWERPROJECT for 20% of your next order! ➢Vertical Diet Meals: https://verticaldiet.com/ Use code POWERPROJECT for 20% off your first order! ➢Vuori Performance Apparel: Visit https://vuoriclothing.com/powerproject to automatically save 20% off your first order! ➢8 Sleep: Visit https://www.eightsleep.com/powerproject to automatically save $150 off the Pod Pro! ➢Marek Health: https://marekhealth.com Use code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off ALL LABS! Also check out the Power Project Panel: https://marekhealth.com/powerproject Use code POWERPROJECT for $101 off! ➢Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150 Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ https://www.facebook.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mbpowerproject ➢ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/powerproject/ ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject ➢TikTok: http://bit.ly/pptiktok FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ https://www.breakthebar.com/learn-more ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en Follow Andrew Zaragoza on all platforms ➢ https://direct.me/iamandrewz #PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell

Power Project family, how's it going? Now, we like to look good in the gym and out of the gym. That's why you always see Mark and I and Andrew is stepping up on the short, short game, wearing shorts from Viore and clothes from Viore. And honestly, the number one compliment that I've seen that I've gotten and even Mark's gotten is, damn, your butt looks good. And that's because, well, the clothes we wear make our booties look delicious. Andrew, how can they get it?

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I'm excited for today's guest, man. I think you've been pushing for it. And so I'll let you talk about it and describe some of this red pill stuff. I know that he doesn't, it seems like he doesn't really like to even talk much about it. Cause you know, he, I don't know.

He created like a certain thing and now he's kind of stuck with having to play to explain the different pills. But I guess it's just a parallel to the matrix, right? It's a parallel to the matrix. Take the red pill and unlock your mind, Neo. But yeah, you know, the first time we heard about The Rational Male, Elliot Hulse suggested that book to us when he came onto the podcast two years ago. And I bought it immediately.

And I went through it. And actually, you know what? Um, and I went through it, uh, and I actually, you know what, when I first started going into some of this information, I really kind of disliked it, uh, because I had assumptions. I'm a guy that has a goal of having a family in the future. I have a goal of trying to be monogamous, et cetera. Um, and when I was like looking through a lot of red pill information on the internet, I ran into channels like fresh and fit. Um, and Rlo will know,

I actually have some questions with Vrolo and Fresh, but other individuals who talk about red pill. And whenever they talk about red pill, it's just like some people, the information is amazing because it talks, Vrolo's great because it's all about intersexual dynamics, the dynamics of men and women in what we call the sexual marketplace. And it's all statistics and it's all true. But then a lot of people take that information and turn into, this is how you get as much pussy as possible. And that's not my thing. Like my thing isn't trying to get as much pussy as possible. My thing is trying to find a good woman in today's society that I can build something with. And oddly enough, his information is really good for that. But people mix Rolo up and think, especially women don't like him and some men don't like him because they think that his stuff is, again, all about just trying to get sex or all just for men trying to get laid or whatever.

But that's really not it. His information is really trying to give the men the tools to be careful in today's dating marketplace. marketplace because with how things are and what we're going to see in this podcast, it's very easy for men to just get the rough side of the stick in a lot of this. And it's a lot of the stuff that he's going to talk about. I preface this with any of our female audience listening. I'd implore you to listen to the whole podcast because he's very misunderstood in some of the things he says. And he's very, again, data statistic driven, and it's uncomfortable.

But both men and women can come out of this with a lot of really good information, especially those who are single. I'm not single anymore, but those who are single, helping them figure out how to find the right person for whatever goals that they have in the future. It's quite obvious that men and women need strategy, you know, trying to figure out the dating game and trying to figure out who's right for them. I heard Rolo basically refer to the fact that he interviewed himself

before he, you know, found his significant other. He is married. He has a kid. A daughter. Yep. And he basically just said, he asked himself, you know, can i be faithful to this person and the answer was yes and then so he dove all in and he's been married for 20 plus years but

the thesis and they probably the root of the whole thing and i can kind of ask him we can get his own words but i i believe it's that there's an idea out there right now that women don't necessarily need men. And I think that's what he's trying to combat. And the word need is like up to interpretation. But, you know, when you look at statistics of who is mainly on online dating, it's a lot. There's a lot more men. Not that there's no women, obviously. There's obviously women there. But there's way more men. And when you look at the statistic rates of

divorce and just the many different things that can happen within relationships and even something as, um, even something like abortion, well, that, you know, people might say someone is more likely to get an abortion if they just hooked up with their neighbor, but they might keep the baby if they hooked up with an NBA player. So there's things that are like that that are examples of things that we would hate to see some people get caught up in. And I would say, again,

I believe both sides need strategy because both sides could really get hurt. And I've seen people torn apart by relationships, but luckily most of the people I've seen that have gone through some shit with relationships, they're strong enough to continue onward. But not everybody's like that. And I think about my own kids. I'm thinking, man, like, they're pretty sweet kids. Like, they're pretty kindhearted.

And I would hate to see them get, like, misled or mistreated and just end up coming out the other side of that worse off rather than being somebody that maybe learned from it. I think at a young age, if you come out of these relationships, it's hard to have any other interpretation other than it just sucked. Yeah, it's radio. Radio rock. All right. Let's go.

There he is. The famous studio. By the way, we are rolling okay it's all good though no i just want to let you know i was adjusting the audio my bad no no worries hey great to have you on the show today hey thanks thanks thanks very much i'm not sure i'm not sure if you're aware of this part of it but i figured we start off with a banger um we are the two personal trainers that you refer to yeah i know okay okay good i'm aware of that i'm aware of that hey it wasn't me yeah we we uh we thought it was it was uh it was funny you know um we

understood we understood anyway uh what i'd like to kind of get from you kind of right off the bat for today is what is your main, I guess, your main objective with some of the stuff that you're doing? From my viewpoint, after listening to hours and hours of your podcast and listening to you on other people's podcasts, I kind of came up with it appears that you're trying to protect people from the fact that women may not necessarily need men anymore. Is that kind of like a good general statement or am I way off? Well, okay. So I've been doing this for a very long time. If you've watched my stuff, you know I've, probably around 2002, 2004, somewhere around there. And I didn't really have an objective per se. It was just sort of I wanted to understand what was going on between, like, say, men and women when it came to intersexual dynamics.

I wanted to understand men's nature, women's nature. it came to intersexual dynamics. I wanted to understand men's nature, women's nature. And we're finally, I think, in a time in like human history where we have access to like information and data that we've never had access to before. And how are we going to parse that out? And how are we going to sort of, I don't know, interpret what that's showing us? So like a guy like me can just go on Google and find all the same studies that anybody who with a PhD can find. So my original, I say purpose was really to educate, not necessarily to say, oh, you know, watch out for, watch out for bad women or watch out for predatory females or something like that. I, my work has always been about, about data and information, objective, about data and information, objectivity, I guess.

And I realize that that's a kind of a stretch because human beings can't be entirely objective. And we're always going to have investments in what our opinion is and everything else. But I think I've done my best to stay as objective as possible. And in doing so, have managed to help a lot of guys along the way. So I will say this, I've put this out there before, is I'm not in the business of making men better men. I'm in the business of giving men the tools that they need to make themselves better men. So it's like the building blocks, the information, the data. So if you're going

to do something with yourself, at least do it from, you know, an educated, you know, perspective. I'm just curious too, because I mean, like when I was mentioning before the podcast, when I of caught me off guard because I was like, is the intention here just to try to get laid? For example, when I watched Fresh and Fit, right? And I've seen some of their content and I know you've collaborate with them. I understand what's super useful about the red pill and all the data and all the statistics as it's helped me navigate the dating marketplace well too. But as I've potentially watched like fresh and fit, right?

When I see when they bring certain women on, there's an archetype of women that continue to come onto that podcast. And I've dated that type of woman. And that's a woman that you want to avoid. But the interesting thing is when you look at the comments and you, you just pay attention to what people are talking about when it comes to that. But the interesting thing is when you look at the comments and you just pay attention to what people are talking about when it comes to that, it's like, of course you don't want to date those women anyway. Those wouldn't even be women you want to marry. So I'm curious as to when it

comes to that, or do you have any idea of what men should be looking for if they're trying to find someone to actually be with to marry? Because you know what I mean by the archetype of woman that you see on that podcast, correct? Do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Ratchet hoes. I mean, let's call a spade a spade. I mean, that's what they call themselves.

Yeah. That's the joke, right? But I think that when you look at it in whole, now you got to remember that Fresh and Fit is one show built really on one template, okay? Which is let's have a conversation. Let's have some discourse here. And the women that they are sourcing are from Miami.

Let's just be honest, okay? So if they're there from, but you got to remember that the women who have gone through there in the course of a year right now have not just been from Miami. They've been from all over the place. They've been from, I mean, I remember the first show I was on, I met a girl from like, I think it was Canada or Montana or something like that. So they're there from somewhere else. So, but does that, is that mindset sort of pervasive of that area? Yeah, I'm certain that it is. When you are looking at the, I mean, I don't see why anybody holds like the After Hours show of Fresh and Fit as some sort of like dating criterion.

I understand that. It's just against the rules. Well, you're not there looking for, if you're watching that show, odds are you're probably not looking for a woman to marry. Okay. None of those women are sort of marriageable women. And that's actually one of the things that Myron and Fresh and myself have talked about like over and over and over again, is that women are less marriageable these days and men are actually less marriageable these days as well. And we've, I've talked about that, um, you know, for a long time, both on my show and on their show as well. So, um, it's not so much about like, why are, you know, why are we watching Fresh and Fit to the, for, you know, to find a wife? That's, that's first and foremost.

Yeah. Yeah. Second of all is, is when we're talking about marriage today, I think a lot of people get, like, for instance, you started out with saying, well, you know, for somebody looking for a long-term relationship or looking for a marriage or something like that, these women are not like, you know, exemplary of the kind of women that I would want to get. Yeah, I agree. However, what it is, is it's an example of, in the most extreme sense of female nature, when it comes to what is it that women are looking for? Is it looks, is it money? Is it, you know, is it game? Is it social skills? What is it? And then the other problem that a lot of

guys run into is, is it even worth getting married today under present circumstances? So when we start out being marriage minded, if that is like, I've been married for 25 years, I've been with the same woman for about 26 and a half now. So when people come to me and they say, well, Rollo, I can't believe you're coming out against marriage. And I was like, I'm not coming out against marriage. I actually think marriage as an institution is a great thing. And people want to throw rocks at me for even just saying that. But hear me out is what I'm saying is that the reason why I am critical of marriage right now is because I'm critical of the way that we do it now. Not the actual institution of it or long, clearly it has been the foundation and the bedrock of Western society for God knows,

for millennia now. I get that. I'm not against marriage. I'm not against long-term commitment. What I am against is the way that we do marriage right now. And so when we have this sort of old order, 20th century way of thinking that that's the ultimate goal, that's the end goal of all of this. We have to look at what is that state? What is that goal state? And figuring out, I want to be with somebody in the long term, I want to have babies, I want to increase the fertility rate, whatever it is, whatever your reasons are for wanting to be in a long-term relationship, you have to look at how those relationships are formed. And that's really what throws a lot of people off about my work and about

really even just watching the After Hours show or anybody in the ministry, it doesn't have to be me, is that we are dealing with old order, 20th century ways of thinking about dating, about thinking about coming together as couples, as forming families now. We start talking about things like polyamory and everything else, an alternative relationship lifestyle. The reason we're having this conversation right now

is because we're transitioning from 1999 up to 2022 right now. And we're still trying to figure this out. It's advancing so quickly and society has changed so much. And we're wondering why is it that the marriage rate is at the lowest rate it's ever been recorded since they started recording those numbers? Why is it that we see certain statistics and SSRIs being prescribed for women? Why is it that we see the autism rate in children rise just like skyrocket from 2000

up to where we are right now? There's all of these, we see all this evidence, we have access to all the statistics and we're not asking why. And so when you say, well, this woman don't seem like somebody that I would want to marry. Yeah. That's because your old order way of thinking about like forming relationships and everything else is coloring what you're seeing on the screen or what you're hearing coming out of my mouth or the statistics that

I'm bringing up that are really kind of challenging, I think, to a lot of our old order beliefs. That's where a lot of the conflict and the contention comes when I'm putting something out there because I'm trying to be as analytical as possible. And people are sort of seeing that through this emotional lens because they're attached to the way that they think that things ought to be. I'm generation X, right? I lived in a time before there were cameras and YouTube and cell phones and everything else. And I've gone from that. And I met my wife back in like 1995, right? To get up to where, yeah, exactly. To get up to where I am right now. Right. So what's, I mean, think of all the dramatic changes that have just happened in just 30 years. Do you think there's less marriage because there's maybe less religion here in the United States? And where did marriage originate from?

simply because the model of raising children in a monogamous commitment seems to be the most successful. There is a positively masculine, conventionally masculine father and a conventionally feminine mother that has always been the recipe for success throughout most of human history right now. So, you're looking at pair bonding or you're looking at monogamy in terms of sort of like an evolutionary perspective versus like, well, is it religion? Is it society? Is it a social thing? You know, Muslims and Jews and everyone else gets still get married. I mean, you know, the Japanese people in feudal Japan got married. So there's something to it.

There's a human dynamic that goes along with that. Is it because we've lost religion? I think we have more or less lost religion as a result of really the sexual revolution, but I don't think it's so much a loss. It's funny you should ask me that. I had a guy from Epic Times was asking me about incels, and he was asking me about the fact that he thought that there was a rise in atheism right now. And I go, that's absolutely not what I'm seeing at all in the manosphere if anything i i think there's guys who are really looking for like that they're they let's say they they identify themselves as what are called nuns right n-o-n-e-s so uh according

to like say the last census i think in the united states uh when people are asked you know do you believe in god they say yeah i believe in god but i don't believe in any organized religion, but I'm like spiritual, but not religious kind of thing. I'm sure you've probably heard that come out of the mouths of so many people. But it's, so how do we sort of parse that out? How do we weigh that interest in whatever religion or really how are we going to structure societies based on what we think should be the right way to do things religiously or versus what we're seeing happen right now. I don't think that it's so much a lack of interest or a rise in atheism as it is this sort of confusion as to what to do with oneself in this new sort of global sexual marketplace, at least as far as marriage is concerned. If you have read any of my books, my fourth book is called Religion. And I sort of

detail and explore a lot. I did a lot. I did three years of research on that book to put things into sort of, I guess, a red pill light when it comes to intersexual dynamics and the, I guess, confluence of religion right there as well. So is it a lack of religion? I don't think it's so much of a lack of religion. I think guys are still very much interested in it. I mean, I know guys who are turning Orthodox, Eastern, you know, Christianity is a big deal. And then on the same, you know, in the same breath or in the same Twitter, you know, thread, I'll see somebody who wants to do ayahuasca and, you know, take mushrooms and have a religious experience so they can sort of heal their

emotional wounds from childhood. And so it's like, there's this want for definitely for that spirituality. But as far as, as the absence of religion I think that that's just it's probably a symptom of a bigger disease. I think if we can, because it's going to be pretty important, you've mentioned the sexual marketplace twice now, and some people that aren't familiar with that and aren't familiar with your content, can you define what the sexual marketplace is so people can understand what that is as far as intersexual dynamics?

And then I think a good thing also would be to, because I read your book, Preventive Medicine also, talk about maybe the different phases of men and women. So as this conversation goes on, we can be clear about all of these. A sexual marketplace in the way that I refer to it, like a lot of people will refer to it in different means. If you're on Tinder, if you're on Bumble, if you're on Hinge, if you're on Instagram, you're in the sexual marketplace. And the way that I have defined the sexual marketplace in really all of my books and really since even before them is it's the, if you're in the dating market or even if you're not, even if you are married, you are still technically in the sexual marketplace in that people are evaluating you as per, in of men uh as you know your burden of performance like like are you a respectable person what are your achievements

what is it that makes you attractive what does it make that gives you sex appeal what does it makes you arousing what does it makes you you know an attraction cue right and the sexual marketplace used to be what i what i refer if you've read positive masculinity i talk about this it's it's uh it used to be a localized marketplace meaning meaning like your sexual marketplace. When mine, when I was, you know, say in high school or in college was my circle of friends. If I was playing in the Hollywood music scene or something like that, or my workspace or my school or meeting my church or whatever, that was a localized sexual marketplace. Meaning that I had my prospects of getting with any of those girls, whether that's temporary, short-term or long-term, was really limited to the people who lived in Southern California, Pasadena, California, or wherever I was as sort of my localized area. 21st century, really since the rise of social media, along with globalization, along with economics and everything else, and really the things that we do here online, the sexual

marketplace has grown into a global sexual marketplace. So now women and men are not technically limited to just the people that they know personally. They can go online and they can meet somebody in Seattle, or they can meet somebody in South Africa or somebody in Japan or something like that. And so there's, even if that's not a, a realizable thing, even if it's like, okay, I can't really get on a plane and go to Mumbai to meet this person. The perception is that I have the choice or that I have a greater pool of potential people that I could become intimate with. And so that's the difference between a localized sexual marketplace and a greater global sexual marketplace.

So like the cell phone right there has opened up really the dating marketplace, the sexual marketplace exponentially as a result. as a result. So another fact of life in the 21st century where we have these old order ideals that are based on that local sexual marketplace versus now women can go on Instagram. Instagram really is the number one dating app online right now. So how cool, you've probably heard me say this as well, is that in the 21st century, dating is really brand management. And so that's how you get a woman who is married, like, say, Aisha Curry, who still wants to be sexy and still wants to put herself out there. She goes on Red Table Talk with Jada Pinkett Smith and talks about how she feels like she's sexually invisible. she's sexually invisible the only reason for that is because she's got she's got this in the in her back pocket and it gives her the at least the perception of this unlimited access or this unlimited you know source a pool of potential suitors if that's the case and so and also another

another person who has been talking about you know open marriages and polyamory and that kind of stuff as well so from from that from that, you know, perception of availability or perception of like potential intimates, then we get into things like, well, what, why are we talking about marriage? Why are we talking about polyamory? So that's number one. Okay. So, and then you also asked me about preventive, or excuse me, preventive medicine and the timeline that's in there. So in the timeline, I brought, I had the reason why it's easier if I explain to you why I wrote the book. When I wrote the first book, it was so significant. It made such a significant impact and it still kind of does. I think a lot of people

still refer to it as the original book is the Bible of the red pill, the Bible of the manosphere. But I had so many people asking me like, Rolo, I wish I would have had this information back before I got divorced, or I decided to marry this person, or I got into it with a single mother or whatever, you know, that kind of stuff. And they were asking me, you know, I wish I would have known this stuff. And so that sort of triggered something in my head. And I said, you know what, maybe I can build a book based on a timeline of what men can expect at different phases of maturity when they're dealing with women. So I created this timeline that was from say about 15 years old, because I had a lot of teenage guys in high school

asking me these same questions. So that's why I started at 15 and I went all the way up to about 50 for women and what it was in different phases of maturity and what men could expect from women, you know, relatively speaking, generally speaking at different times in their lives. And so, um, right around say 18 to 28 years old is what we call the party. What I've, I was being polite. I said, this is the party years right here, but you know, other people, not me, other women have picked this up and called this the whole phase. Okay. So I was like, I'm gonna have a great whole phase. I'm like, okay, that's the party years, but I've heard that come out of women's mouths too. So whatever you want, I'm going to have an awesome whole phase and then try to stick the landing when i get to be like 29 30 31

years old yes exactly and so 29 to 31 is what i i register as the epiphany phase and that's when women are like okay i'm done with the bad boys i'm done with the the jerks i'm done with the guys who you know well really what ch Sheryl Sandberg referred to as the guys you shouldn't like, you should date all these guys, but don't marry them. And then when the time is right, which is usually 29 to 31 years old, that's when you start looking for a quote unquote equal partner and you want to get married and settle down. So what it is, is it's sort of this inversion of like what women think men do, right? They think that they have this unlimited access to unlimited, you know,

unlimited sexuality and that they, because we're all equal and we're all blank slates, they should be, have some sort of equal access to be able to do what they want to in their quote unquote ho phase. So between 18 and 28 years old is where I peg women's like peak sexual marketability. When we talk about sexual marketplace, there's peak sexual market value is right around 23 years old. And there are numerous studies that back this up. And for all the women watching real quick, because when you talk about stuff like this, I've talked about this with women too, because I do like to get opinions on this. They tend to hear that and be like, but that's not all I'm worth. And when you say sexual market value, you're not talking about the worth of the human being or how valuable they are as a person to

society. You're just talking about the way our attraction as men to certain ages of women. That's what you're talking about. Yeah. Well, men and women are, have different attraction cues. We have different reasons why we want to get involved with each other. For men, it's really simple. She's got to be hot and she's got to be available. That's pretty much it. Men's innate sexual strategy is unlimited, barring anything else. If they didn't have to do a, you know, shuck and jive and be a dancing monkey or do anything performance wise to get a woman left to his own devices, it is unlimited access to unlimited sexuality if you don't believe me just look at how how online porn has proliferated since 2000 okay that is exactly men's innate mating strategy unlimited access unlimited sexuality and on demand whenever you want i'm

sure you guys have probably talked about you know nofap and and you know porn addictions and stuff like that the reason for that is because our innate mating strategy is unlimited access to unlimited sexual violence simple as that for women it's it's different it's not so much like quantity as much as it is quality so they're looking for the guy even when they're having casual sex that guy still has to have meet certain criteria gotta be hot gotta be funny gotta you know have some money gotta have you know what's the you know good muscles money and game and then you know gotta love his mom gotta want kids gotta like puppy dogs gotta like disneyland whatever it is

that's on down the the bullet point checklist there and i'm not saying you have to hit all of those just some of them in priority order is pretty much where women's attraction is. Now, the other thing I also point out, and you're probably going to get to this at some point else, is going to be hypergamy. And that is women's innate mating strategy. It's short-term strategy versus long-term strategy. And I don't know if I can swear on here, but it's alpha seed. Okay, it's alpha fucks and beta bucks. Okay, it's alpha seed and beta need. Short-term sexual benefits versus long-term security provisioning and parental investment benefits. And rarely do those two become optimized in the same man.

So the hot guy who is also a good dad and also a good cat, he's the guy that other men want to be and other women want to bang. That guy is a rare animal, particularly in the 21st century right now. And it's gotten to the point where, at least as far as my work is concerned, that I believe that women don't even look for that combination in the same guy at the same time. So when a woman is between 18 and 28 years old, she's looking for the hot guy in the foam cannon party in Cancun on spring break. And that's her whole phase. So she's having the priorities might be, he's got to be really hot and he's got to be really good looking. I really want to get somebody that I really want to have sex with. Whereas when she gets the epiphany phase, right around 29,

30, 31 years old, still got to be hot, but maybe that's number two. And number one is like, he's got to have a good job or he's got to be, have some potential to make partner in the law firm or have some of what I've called the three Ps, which is protection, provisioning, and parental investment. And that's what makes for a good long-term partner. So a guy who's got his shit together, who has made the most of himself, has really kind of lived up to what I call the men's burden of performance. When men get to be about 35, 36 years old, that's when I peg them at their peak sexual market value. Because that is when men have the most potential to have the most of what women are attracted to. So that's why I say that.

So people always get that confused. So that's why I say that. So people always get that confused. When I say women's peak sexual market value years is 23 and men's is about 36, it's not that I. And when it comes to fertility and youth and beauty and sex appeal, that is overwhelmingly the time when men are looking for that woman at 23 years old. You can look at the data sets from like Dataclysm. I don't know if you're familiar with that book, but there's all kinds of proof that shows this, all kinds of research. And again, am I saying this to make proof that shows this, all kinds of research. And again, am I saying this to make women feel bad? No, I'm not. Women tend to conflate sexual market value,

sex appeal with personal worth, with personal value. So for instance, Mother Teresa was a great woman. She should be a saint, right? Sexual market value-wise, probably not the highest, okay? So if you have a woman who is very sexy and vivacious, and if you look at like Hollywood starlets, their peak years are usually right in between 18 and 28 years old. And then from there, they kind of like get cycled out for the next crop that comes in. That's just there, they kind of like get cycled out for the next crop

that comes in. That's just one for men. On the other hand, men tend to have a much slower burn when it comes to their acting careers or being a celebrity. So there's lots of different ways or lots of different correlations when I'm talking about sexual market value versus when men get it and when women get it. But what happens is women tend to conflate their sex appeal with their personal agency. And I've said this before, is that women's real inherent, only real actionable agency is their sex appeal. And so from there, whatever you do at that point, however you empower yourself, whatever your career is, whatever your business is, whatever your education is, that's personal worth. But when it comes to sexual market value, the things that men are looking for are different than the things that women are looking for in either sex. And maybe in both cases, maybe they could be viewed as being superficial in some ways.

Maybe the woman is looking for security and maybe that's in a financial way, and maybe somebody might view that as being superficial. Gold digger. Yeah, and maybe a guy is looking for the girl to be hot. Well, that's what's throwing off a lot of guys right now, particularly in sort of like the conservative, traditional conservative, like Matt Walsh, example or like andrew clavin or even candace owens is that they tend to think of those things in terms of well this seems really

superficial but they can't get past the data that says women find most men unattractive women can't find what are called you know quote-unquote economically attractive men and for men to be economically attractive they have to make as much money as a woman plus 58% more. When we look at stuff, and this is not stuff that I'm just like pulling out of my ass here. You can find this on Google. In fact, it was a hot topic right around 2019, I think, and probably still is right now. And we talk about this crisis of masculinity or this crisis of what's happening to these men. How come they're not going to school? Like women go to school 60% more, like they're enrolling in college, 60% more than men are at 60, 40 right now. And it is rapidly declining after that. So what does

that do to a society, right? What is that going to do to business prospects? What's that going to do to like sales? What's that going to do to political involvement? What's that going to, so like when I talk about the red pill, it's not just about getting laid. Like you guys were saying before. Yeah, that's definitely a part of it, but it goes, it's so much bigger than all of that. And you know, one thing that's, you mentioned really interesting about online dating is the amount of men who are still virgins by the age of, I've heard you mention by the age of 29 or 30, that that's gone up what amount? 41%.

Yes. 31%. So the, the original data set for that was the general survey study. And I think it was from 2019 and I, there might've updated it since then, but the most recent articles that I've read is that 31% of men below the age of 30 are sexless. They're either virgins or they have not had sex within the last, say, 10 years, I think.

Something like that, since they started keeping track of this. Now, if you take that and you look at that and compare that against, say, college enrollment rates, where you see men declining in college enrollment rates while sexlessness is going up what can we infer from those correlates what can we like at that point it's like women are still having the same amount of sex or more sex but men are having less at the same time their education level of their enrollment in college is going down so what what is that pointing out at least to me anyways the dots that i'm connecting here is that women have a vested interest in men's economics future. Whether or not they really care about that guy is another animal to look at. But the fact remains is that women are interested in their long-term interests and men play a part in that. As much as women want to say, I'm strong and independent and repeat all the stuff from

Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan from the 70s, they don't need a man, but they want a man. And when they can provide, protect, and have the parental investment side of hypergamy already taken care of, either by themselves or by the social order that is supporting them, the type of men they want is not those guys. It's not the 80% of guys who are economically unattractive. It's the hot guy that they want to share. It's the powerful, high-value man who they, and I think I've heard some people talk about it as if he has, it's like the golden penis syndrome. It's really not.

It's that women are selecting that guy because that's the guy they want to be with, not the guy that they have to be with or not the guy that they're going to settle for. So you've got this have and have nots in the 21st century sexual marketplace. And again, backed up by data set after data set. If you go and you look at the work of Steve Stewart Williams, Rob Henderson, David Buss, most recently, women find 80%, and this is conservatively speaking, find 80% of men unattractive. Not like average, unattractive. So that means like 20% of guys are guys who are guys that they would consider being with in the first place.

And this is from, you know, data sets from OkCupid. This is from research, like I said, by those guys who are evolutionary psychologists. It's also by Hinge, Bumble, Tinder. You name the source and the data is right there. Do you think marriage is mainly important due to people having children or do you think it's an important thing? Is it like the end game for most people that don't want to be single? I think that marriage, as far as an institution, like I was saying before, has been sort of debased, really, since the sexual revolution. I think that marriage has, and you can at all of these, like if you look at the decline in marriage, it happens, it begins, the steep decline begins right around 1965.

And if you look at the rise, the spike in divorces and then the drop off, that spike began right in 1965. And if you look at what no fault, no fault divorce, 1970, I think. And you look at all of these, all of these increases and decreases, you can go trace it back to one year. And I was like 1965, 1966. And that is right when the sexual revolution happened as a result of hormonal birth control. So when we look at like the decline in marriage, as you were saying, you know, why is, why should marriage just be for having babies or whatever? I don't think personally me, if you're going to ask my opinion, then personally, I'd say no, because I believe that men and women are innate and natural compliments to one another. There is the conventional masculine and conventional feminine. So as I said before, I've been married for 25 years. My strengths as a positive, conventionally masculine male offset the weaknesses of my conventionally feminine wife and vice versa.

We are complements. We're innate, natural, evolved complements to one another. That's sexual dimorphism between human beings is a feature, not a bug. And we are not blank slates. We are not just equal partners in all of this. We're not just egalitarianism is a pipe dream. However, as I've said before, men and women are better together than they are apart. So how do we facilitate that? We're already seeing globally, particularly in Western industrialized nations right now, we're seeing that the fertility rate in those nations

are below replacement level right now as a result of the last 60 years of what has happened since the sexual revolution. And so when we look at how women have been put into the workplace, we see the decline in religion, just like you guys were saying a minute ago. We look at the social changes of what I've called,

well, what many people have called gynocentrism, which means we are focusing primarily on the needs and the social order that is created by and for women at this point. So if you look at right now, if you look at the major financial institutions around the world, the IMF, the EMF, World Bank, you look at the United States, Janet Yellen, I think is Secretary of Treasury, most of the world's financial institutions are controlled by women. And we look at the power base right now is very focused on the female. While at the same time, socially, we're led to believe that we live in this horrible, oppressive, masculine patriarchy, and that masculinity is toxic. So the social narrative is men are still in control. Men are still evil.

Men are still toxic. Men are still this, that, or whatever. Well, at the same time, we're seeing data after data after data that's pointing completely in the opposite direction. So when we're talking about marriage, I'm not against marriage. And I have a lot of people ask me that same question, Mark. They'll say, should I get married? I want to get married, Rolo, because I want to have kids, but I want to be able to protect my assets or not be over-invested in this because I still want to

have, they would very much like to have really what I have. I don't use my marriage as an example very often because I don't want people, I don't want guys to think, oh, well, Rolo has the 12 steps to go get the perfect marriage. I don't have that. I mean, I have, I know it works for me. I know it works for my wife. I can show you what that looks like, but that doesn't mean that my success is going to any future indication of your success. So, but I can tell you like sort of the basics, like my, the success and strength of my marriage is really based on sort of being red pill aware and understanding my nature as a man and her nature as a woman. And, you know, are we religious? Do we have a faith? Yes, we do. Have we been married for a long time? Yes. Do we have that sort of, you know, symbiotic,

you know, complimentary marriage? Yes. We've done it quite successfully for a long time now. And my daughter is 23, graduating from, you know, she's getting her postgraduate work right now. So I think I've done pretty well, according to, you know, what I've been sort of espousing, I guess, for the last 20 years. to take that into consideration as to like, I am essentially building a house on land that I don't own and that I will never own. Because right now it is more advantageous for men to be out, they have more power, more maneuverability outside of marriage than they do inside of marriage. Because once they do get into that, then they're on the hook for debt load. They're on the hook for the kids. They're on the hook for whatever. It's just this constant, you've got to constantly keep up with working on the relationship and working on the marriage. And if you don't, there's always that sort of Damocles that's over your head that's saying, well, divorce is always on the table for her, but not for me. And so when it comes to

your ability to do more, to maneuver, to have more power in your life. Men have more power outside of marriage than they do inside of marriage. And I'm not saying that that's the way it ought to be. I'm not happy about that, but that's just simply the, that's the, those are the considerations that guys make when they're talking to me. So, I mean, you have said, I don't know if you mentioned on this podcast so far, but you have mentioned that 70% of divorces are initiated by women. Some people will say higher than that, but I usually say 70 because that's the lowest estimate. And I know this is going to be somewhat of a weird question. Um, but what would your suggestion be to women? Right. Because like when, when you're talking about how women find 80% of men unattractive, that could be partially because it's not bad for a woman to get educated.

It's not bad for a woman to make money. But if you're a woman making $100,000 a year and you no longer find a man that makes $75,000 a year that attractive because you make more than him but he still does well, are in your, you, you make more than him, but he still does well. Maybe there's going to have to come a change in the future too. And I don't know if that change is going to happen, but to what women find financially attractive as they become more successful, because now if you're trying to get a guy that's making six figures or more, those guys are rare. And those guys are the, the guys that all the other women want. And we, I mean, they have all the options. So why would they pick you?

Right, right. That's a tough question. I've been getting that a lot more. I actually have been doing a lot more work with women, really the latter half of last year and now. And the most common question I get is, Rolo, I'm all on board with the red pill. I understand, you know, they really like what I have to say, which is odd to me because I actually get more like resistance and pushback from guys than I do from women these days. Really? Yes.

Wow. Because women want that. They want the high value guy. These are the guys who haven't gotten laid yet. These are the guys. Well, that's, as I said before, they're not interested in that 80% of guys who are, they find unattractive. They're looking for at least the top 20% of guys. And I'm not saying all of those guys are just getting all the tail. It's just that that's what women are attracted to,

right? It's the 80-20 rule. It's not that, you know, 80, 20% of guys are getting in with 80% of girls. No, it's 100% of women want to get with the top 20% of guys. And then that leaves the 80% of guys who are sexless or trying to figure out how to adapt so that they can get themselves into the 20th percentile. But that's what I get right now. And really, again, one of those statistics that has spiked since about 1965, 1970 is as women have gotten into the workplace, have gotten into careers and become careerist, have gotten educations. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. It's what I call the fempowerment narrative. We have wanted to empower women, actively empower women by creating special dispensation and social programs for women really since the 1970s.

You know, Title IX, that kind of stuff. We've done that for a long time now. And now we have the women of today, the women who can't find a suitable mate of today are the product of the generations that instituted that, that brought that to being. And so now, of course, what we see is, you see is women, of course, initiate 70% of divorces. But also, you have to remember that women over the age of, say, like 34 years old that are unmarried are unlikely to become married. And so when you have, or what is it, 30, 30, women over 30 aren't having babies. They get to 30 and they're still single and childless.

Again, another stat that I threw out in book four was the Morgan Stanley research called the rise of the she economy. Now, this is Morgan Stanley that's doing this because they're trying to make forecasts for the coming decade. And one of the forecasts they made is that by 2030, 42 or 45% of women in prime working age between 25 and 44 years old will be single and childless by 2030. And not as a result of careers or focusing on their career or whatever else. It's because they simply will not get with anything less than the guy that they think is there is their due, which is the high value guy, six foot tall,

six pack abs, six figure income and are looking for the best of the best. As I said before, hypergamy, innate evolved, hypergamy predisposes women to want to get with the guy who is not the, not the schlub with potential, but the guy who's already a turnkey winner that they want to get with. And they've, especially if they've put all of this energy and effort into their own self-development in, in college, in, you know, maybe even postgraduate degrees, um, in, in creating their own career, making their own money, becoming independent.

We always talk about the strong independent archetype for women, right? It's a cliche. We want strong leads in movies and stuff, like strong female leads in movies. And that's sort of an extension of this idea of the strong, independent woman. Well, independent of what? Independent of men. Independent of men's provisioning. Independent of having to have any outside influence decide for them what it is that they want to do.

And usually that's at the behest of the patriarchy or whatever fantasy we have of male power right now. So when we look at these women and they are the product of this and they've gone to like, say, four to eight years of school. They've got their own damn money. They've got their into whatever job it was they were training for, assuming they were training for a job in the first place. They get to that point and they go, I can't find the right guy. Where is he? And they might make appeals to their religion like, oh, Lord, please give me the man that you preordained me to be with. And that guy is not forthcoming. And so you've got all of these women who believe that they're entitled to the best of the best. And that yet we see the college enrollment for men is at 40% and they're only

attracted to the top 20% of guys. And they'll tell me, well, what is it that I have to do to get with that guy? I'm 32 years old and it doesn't look good for me, Rollo. How do I change that? How do I find a guy? And myself and many other guys have said the same thing is that you need to get in touch with your feminine. Because up to this point, you've been on your game with your university, you've been on your game with your business and everything else. And you basically turned yourself into the man that you want to marry. And men don't want to marry another man. They want to marry a woman. They want to get with a woman who is conventionally feminine, who is nurturing, who is in men. Don't take this the wrong way, ladies, who is submissive,

who is supportive of that guy, who's appreciative and who is sexy and wants to still have sex with them and really want to get after it with them. So there's that balance. And so when I say that to a professional woman of 2022, it sounds like what I'm telling her is to dumb herself down. So you know what? All that stuff that you built your entire life over, all the stuff that Disney and Pixar taught you when you were a little girl and frozen, that you can do anything and you can be a boss bitch and you can be an astronaut and everything else, all that stuff. Well, that's not what guys are really looking for. And it's not because they're insecure. It's just because that's the way they're built. That's the way evolution

made men. They're looking for like the masculine wants the feminine. And so when you're looking for the guy who is your quote unquote equal, he's not forthcoming because that guy who might be, you know, make 58% more than you, or might be taller than you, or might be a better, better, you know, someone that you can look up to and admire. He's not looking for the boss, babe. He's not looking for the quote unquote alpha female. He's looking for the woman who is sexy, vivacious, and he's looking because now he's finally in a position of sexual selectivity. And he's not looking for a 34 year old professional careerist woman. He's looking for a 24-year-old woman who is still fun to be with and enjoyable and wants

to start a family and wants to build from there. And so women of that sort of caliber, that professional caliber who's in their 30s, yes, they're going to be single and childless and alone as per Morgan Stanley's research. So how do you solve that problem? That's a really good question. Again, just my trying to solve it makes it sound like I'm telling women to get in touch with your inner feminine and they'll go, well, I don't want to be with a guy who doesn't want to be with me because of me or you should want me for my inherent worth. And it's like, no, your sexual market value isn't what you think it is because the only guys that qualify to be your equal mate don't want to get with you.

They want to get with the girl who's 24, 25, 26 years old. So what do I say? Get in touch with your feminine. Try to be more feminine. Wear a dress. I don't know. In some way, try to re-feminize yourself and get in touch with your inner feminine. And that sounds like I'm saying become a dumb bimbo, get a boob job, dye your hair, you know, yellow, right?

Do whatever it is that you think that those guys want to get and play the game. And that is interesting because it's almost like a reverse or a parallel for what guys have had to do for a long time. They had to adapt their game and their strategy so that they could get out of the 80% and get into the 20%. However, for women, we don't say that because we presume that women are the ones who are going to be making all the sexual selections and they're the ones who are going to be the gatekeepers of sex as well as the gatekeepers of commitment. So it's a really tough spot. It's really hard for me to make those calls and like do do something that is productive for women especially if they are single mothers right that's even more difficult after that so um like long story short i think is like when when women are asking that like

professional women of today uh refeminizing yourself or trying to find some sort of you know get back to your feminine is a real difficult task because they can't, they can't do it up here and they can't do it up here. They can't do it up here. And you know, what I want to mention from there is like, for the women that are listening again, you're, when you, you bring forward facts and statistics and it's very harsh to hear, but if we're thinking, you know, because, for example, if a more conventionally masculine woman hears that, like you said, they'll say a man is insecure. It might not be that he's insecure. He's just quite literally not attracted to that. And most men, this is, again, a rough thing to hear.

Most men aren't attracted to that. This is, again, a rough thing to hear. Most men aren't attracted to that. So it's like, it's not a problem to be that way, but you just have to understand that you're now working with a lower pool of men. And it just means that your likelihood for the outcomes of you want, if you do want kids or you want to get married or whatever, it's just lower. It's just facts that your likelihood is lower. That's all. We've done a disservice to really four generations of women, but certainly the last two, like the millennials and Generation Z women right now, is that we have somehow convinced them that to be more masculine, to be an alpha female, to do all this stuff is going to in some way make them more attractive to men. And it's not. That's not how the machine was built. And again, this kind of goes back to evolutionary psychology, but we are the way we are.

It's like me saying, hey, I got this really fat girl over here that I really want to introduce you to. And I really think you should marry this fat girl. And I don't care whatever your preferences are or whatever. But the fact of the matter is that most guys don't want to get with a fatter woman. They want a thin, sexy, hourglass shape, whatever your preference is. And a woman, if I can interrupt for a second, a woman does not like a guy that's short a lot of times. And that's very general. That's not all women. But if you said, hey, look at the picture of this guy, they'd go, wow, he's really attractive. Then you say, well, he's 5'4". Or 5'6". Yeah. Yeah. They're like, still no. Yeah, I'm out. And that's a deal breaker. That's

a deal breaker. And you got to repeat, I deal with guys like this all the time. They say, I'm so short. Roll over. You got to remember the average height of the American male is 5'9". And it's not like 6' tall, but that's what women, especially if you've been watching Fresh and Fit, that's what they'll say. I'm entitled to a 6' tall dude who makes this amount of money,

who has six-pack abs, has a chiseled jawline, a V taper and can, you know, he's in the bench 300 club. That's what I'm looking for. Right. And that is a t-shirt. Have you guys seen the, the, the female delusion calculator? Oh, yeah. Tell us about that. I was, when I was on Patrick, that David, I brought this up with Adam Sosnick.

Adam was like really pleased that I did. But you know, Adam, for instance, is six foot tall. He makes X amount of dollars. He's a white guy. He's 41 years old. And so you basically put in all the statistics and then it will statistically measure you up against like, you know, census data and all this other stuff. How accurate is this thing to do? I'll give you the link after

the show. You can see where they get the data sets. But this is not just made up. This is not just pulling out your ass. Adam Sosnick is like 0.13% of the population is Adam Sosnick. And so when you bring that up and you show that

just like sort of empirical data, even if he was just like two percent of the population, that would be, you know, even if the data was a little skewed and he was like three percent of the population, yeah, you're right. It sounds bad. There's no way to sugarcoat it. And that's why people don't like – that's why Michaela Peterson doesn't like me. That's why all the rest of these women don't. Like when I was on with Sosnick's – I don't know if you guys saw that show that I did. I did. I did in Fort Lauderdale. That's why I'm vile.

I'm like, no, I'm just – I just work here. You're incitingile. I'm like, no, I just work here. You're inciting discussion. I'm just showing you the data sets here. And it's not the way I'm saying something. It's the information itself. I can be very nice and monotone and just be completely unemotional in delivering the information. It's still going to be vile and offensive because it conflicts with, it's unflattering to female nature. It's unflattering to, you know, to be presented with that kind of, you know, harsh, you know,

cold bucket of reality poured all over them. So yeah, most definitely. And then, I'm sorry, what was the other point? I was going to say, I think it's, I think a lot of your conversation is actually pretty awesome because it gets people to get into conversation. And even if people are getting mad, I think Donald Trump did this successfully as well. People started talking about politics in this country. And the next go around of voting is going to be the highest voting that we've ever had.

So it gets people more involved. And people should be thinking about this. People should be protecting themselves when they're thinking about dating. I mean, these are serious issues. You don't want to, it's okay if you're with somebody here and there and it's on and off

and it's like not a real serious thing, but anyone that's ever been dragged through a relationship knows that can be really, really difficult. And it's not great for both sides. So I actually think that a lot of the stuff that you're talking about, I think is opening up conversation for both sexes. It's opening up conversation for both sides to be able to be heard. And it sounds to me like you're just giving out information and saying,

hey, these are some of the things that I saw. These are some of the things that I've seen over the years. And now you can go out and make some of your own decisions and no one has to agree with everything you say. They don't have to agree with anything you say, but at least there's information and at least we can have conversation now. When I have those conversations, and again, a good example of this was the Adam Sosnick thing I did on Saucecast. I tend to have rational rational empirical conversations. Like I start and say, here's the data. Here's what do you think? Like, just like you're saying, let's have a conversation about what the facts are and what the actual observable facts are. The problem that I run into

is that it's a conflict between sort of rationality and reason versus emotion and when we get on to show shows like uh well i mean for instance i don't know if you guys caught that uh that show on um dr phil with matt walsh and the bearded lady that was on there and he was trying to like sort of nail this this man woman whatever to the wall with like saying okay give me a definition of what is a woman. And they couldn't give him a definition. They were like, oh, well, it's all subjective and it's all relative. And then, you know, two plus two is five or six or four, depending on how I feel about it that particular day. And Matt Walsh was just like, no, tell me what is the definition? And none of them

could give him that answer. And, you know, of course he played it up and sort of milked that episode for as long as he could. But the fact of the matter is that the reason why they couldn't give him an answer is because the moment they do, then you have an empirical standpoint from which to work from. So if you say a woman is X, right, then all of that relativity and all that subjectivity and everything else that sort of revolves around that flies out the window. As long as it's ambiguous, as long as it's subjective, then we can suddenly win this emotional argument. And it didn't make me feel good after the end of that show or whatever. It's like you can still have these talks, but it's feels before reels. And we have been based in emotionalism, really, I think, since the 1970s, but certainly since 2000 right now. And our conversation, our politics, our social agendas, our religion, you name it, is all based on a conflict between rational, reasonable data that is readily available in the Google social media age versus an emotionalism that wants to win the argument.

And you probably have heard me say this before. Once a woman says, who hurt you? Or mommy didn't love you enough, did she? Or boy, she really must have done a number. We're trying to end a conversation or kill a discussion. It's usually something like that. Who hurt you? Presuming a point, presuming an emotional state rather than saying, is this data correct? And what do you think? How do you interpret this data? It's how does this data make you feel as opposed to what is this? Is this the real thing or is this not? And what are the best practices that we can develop as a result of this? That didn't make me feel good.

That didn't make me feel good. Women will always tell me, Rolo has a lot of good data and it's all true, but it's truthful anger. It's not coming from a position of anger. The only reason you think it's anger is because that's the only way you can win that argument. You the time when we're having these conversations, if I go on a mainstream podcast, I expect to be dealing with an emotional argument. And I expect myself to have an obligation to objective reasoning. And so I'm trying to – like when I was on You Are Here with Elijah Schaefer, I expected that. Now, that was a really good time for me. I'm not going to lie, but I knew what was coming. I may try to make that point is that we are in the feels before reels generation, the feels before reels era right now. And as I said before, that emotionalism, putting emotion above everything else pretty much defines this age right now in our politics, our religion, our social, you name it.

And any conversation, any discourse we have is usually between emotion and reason. You know, Ro, I know you mentioned earlier that you're not in the business of helping men become better men. But what was the second part of that statement? That's another byproduct of that is I help them. But no, I'm not in the business of helping men become better men. I'm in the business of giving them the tools to make themselves better men. And one of the tools is more muscle,

more money, and better game, right? Can you expand on that? Sure. I'll give a shout out to my friend John from Modern Life Dating. He's the one who came up with that. It's money. If you think about it, you guys are in the fitness side, right? So let's say you're in the make muscles side of that equation. Let's just be honest here. I'm in the game side of most of that. Other people that I

know, like Rich Cooper, for example, he might be a good example of the make money. Certainly, Robert Kiyosaki, George Gammon, the other guys that I work with as well. So there's always that sort of trifecta of like, how do you, how to live your best life as a guy, money, muscles, and game. Those are the three niches that most people get into when they start a YouTube podcast or they write a book or something like that, self-help kind of thing. And then as a result of those three elements, you have what's called frame. And this is not me talking. This is a psychological sociological perspective is a frame is like the world into which other people enter into. So right now i'm in your frame because this is your show and so i'm i'm sort of deferring to you guys as being the hosts of this show uh you might do the same thing with your family you

could do the same thing with your your job your boss your supervisor you're in their frame kind of thing well that also applies to personal relationships and so a powerful, authoritative man holds a frame that women want to enter into, especially if they are like the apex examples of money, muscles, and game, right? And by game, I mean, not just like, you know, pickup or whatever. I mean, in terms of like social skills, social intelligence, being able to, you know, be a good conversationalist. There's so much that goes along with the game as well. But those are the three elements of really the men's sphere, if you think about it.

And you guys, like I said, are in the fitness side, which I'm glad to finally have a connection with you guys because I've been looking for good fitness dudes for a long time. A micro-sheet, right? Yeah, a micro-sheet. A micro-sheet's a good example of that. Drew Bay is another one. I'm trying to think of some of these other guys.

But yeah, right now I am doing a lot of work with George Gammon, Robert Kiyosaki, Ken McElroy, and a few other guys in the sort of the financial realm. Patrick Bet-David was a good connection in that respect as well. Adam Sosnick too. But there's a lot of crossover, I think, from like red pill spaces into like, say, entrepreneurship, the money sphere and the fitness sphere as well. And so when you take all those in connection and come, really what I would like to do is start a convention or some kind of, I don't know, outreach, I guess, that encompasses all the best of money,

muscles and game. But as far as like giving men like tools, like that statement, I said, I'm not in the business of making men better men. I'm in the business of giving them the tools and the education that they need so that they can make themselves better men. The reason I say that primarily as well, first of all, just what I do. And then second of all, it's I don't want a cult. I don't want Rolo Tomasi men. I don't give a, I don't, I'm in the business of descriptions, not prescriptions.

Yeah. So I don't give you a workout program, right? To follow these steps and you'll be big, right? I say, here's, here are the principles. Here's the, here's the, the data sets. Here's what, here's my analysis of all of this. And from that guys take that in the apply those things to their lives individually. So there's no Rolo Tomasi men, right? There's no, as much as people want to criticize me,

that's what I've been trying to avoid for a long time. I don't want people to, I don't have 12 rules for life, right? I'm not going to have 12 rules for life. I have the Rational Male series of books. And from that, if you can, whatever you can glean from that, whatever you can pull from that, that is applicable to your life at that particular time that you can leverage to your advantage, then what I want you to do as a sort of a follower of me, whatever it is, I want you to show me what you built. I'm not saying here's how you build it. I'm saying, here's the tools to build it. Go build your house, go build your life, go build a better way of living as a result of this. It's going to be hard. And yeah, you need

perseverance and of course you need blood, sweat, and tears, but here's the tools. Come back to me three months later and show me what you've built. And sometimes it might be, well, I took the gun out of my mouth. I took the noose off of my neck. My wife started having sex with me again. It might not have anything to do with pickup or game or anything like that. It's just, I wanted to be a better person. And as a result, my wife is banging me again. I got it. I'm on my game as far as my business is concerned. I'm starting to rethink things in a different way. I'm not a positivity hustler, right? I'm not the guy who's going, come on, you can get out there and do it. Go, go, go. No, I'm giving you the tools so you can do that for yourself.

So you have actual actionable things and data and education so that you can build something new from yourself. And so it's like I'm not going up there and saying, here's how you do it. I'm saying, here's the tools to do it. You go do it. Yeah. And when I was when I was asking that, what I wanted to know, because I haven't heard you talk about it much. Yeah. And when I was, when I was asking that, what I wanted to know, cause I haven't heard you talk about it much. I'm, I've heard of you talk about it a little bit, but you know, we try to do everything we can to, uh, just help people become stronger, help people become healthier. We have a plethora of different guests on to just work probably heard about the topic of porn. We brought it up once on this podcast. But it does make me curious because that became super popular within my generation.

And I have seen how that has mentally and also physically affected dudes in terms of like, if you're spending so much time here, you're not going out and working on certain things that you could be, motivations down, etc. be motivations down etc so from all the men that you've talked to what has what what have you seen from in the way that porn has affected millennial men or men in general because i find that millennial men and gen z is that the generation before us uh yeah yeah millennial and then gen z gen millennial and then gen z those in terms of the effect that i've seen on those men it has been extremely effective on them because they've gotten on it from a very young age like I got on it from a very young age. So what have you seen there in terms of men and potentially just like – I'll tell you what I told Elijah Schaefer on because he asked me pretty much the same questions. What can men do?

Usually this question comes in tandem with what can men do to be better men? My first advice, let's just say, if I'm going to suggest anything, I'm going to give you a prescription is to stop sedating yourself. And that's what most guys, particularly in those generations you just mentioned, all of them sedate themselves. Voluntarily or just by necessity, they sedate themselves uh by voluntarily or just by necessity they sedate themselves pornography is sedation it is meant to keep you on the bed jerking off that's all it's meant to do i mean let's i i'm i'm raw when it comes to that kind of stuff it's like you know if that's what you're about and i'm not necessarily against porn per se but i do understand that its function is to sedate men.

And no one in no other generation has have men been more sedated than they are right now. So you can from that point, you can sort of get into other things like, well, you know, today's pornography is free 4K streaming. You can get I could get it right here right now if I want to. Right. get it right here right now if i want to right and a 10 year old boy can get hardcore you know double penetration pornography whenever that kid wants now i don't know about you guys but when i was in i'm generation x so getting a hold of a hustler magazine was like pirate fucking gold when i was when i was like 14 years old and you kept your stash and it was like, no, this is, this is issue number. I mean, you were like, it was like, it was like slaves bar. Like, okay, I have a little bit of that, you know, that kind of stuff when I was and, and, you know,

and then progressively you get to like spice channel and playboy channel and like online and, you know, renting a VHS or something. And the, the barrier to, to getting hardcore porn was way different for my generation than it was for certainly the millennials. I can tell you that right now. Oh yeah. But now it's free and there's a reason that it's free because it is meant to sedate you. It is meant to keep you from doing exactly what you were saying, which is get up and motivate and do something for yourself. And that's honestly, I think that's one of the reasons why like nofap is such a big, I don't necessarily subscribe to the sort of woo-woo magical spirituality of nofap, but I do understand, and I've written articles about this. I think you'll find this in my first

book, as a matter of fact, that when you're not jerking off, there are certain behavioral manifestations or attitudes that you will have as a result of not doing that. And women pick up on those subtle cues of a guy who is used to getting laid rather than used to jerking off. So there's a lot of subtle behavioral things that women pick up on. That being said, sedation is a big deal, I think, for men of this generation in particular, and not just young men too, I should say. When you look at the rise in prescription opioid addictions, when you look at the rise in alcoholism, when you look at the rise in trying to think of other sedations, like anything that pretty much keeps you from doing like alcoholism is a really good one. But anything that sort of keeps you away from actually building something or having the creative drive to sort of deal with your discontent as a guy. So when I come down on porn as a sedation, I'm also coming down on other things, too.

sedation, I'm also coming down on other things too. You guys probably like there's guys, what, when we talk about guys who are like sort of unambitious or this lost boys generation right now, we tend to think of them as sort of like at home living in mom's basement, you know, shit posting on Twitter, jerking off the porn, ordering Uber eats, smoking weed, by the way, which was one of the worst things that, that these States could have done is legalize marijuana right now. Not because I'm anti-weed, it's that it's a sedation and it's all it's going to do is demotivate that many more people as a result of that. So if you're asleep because you're jerking off, you're drunk, you're on Oxycontin and

you're playing World of Warcraft, right? Or you're on whatever your escape happens to be, you will never get out of that escape if your shitty life is worse than the escape that you happen to live in and you prefer to be in. So what I think most men need to do is they need to, here's your positive advice, right? If you want to get out of the shithole that you're in, look at what is sedating you first, and then take care of that first. Get to the gym. Most what you guys probably understand these stats, right? Was it, is it 75% of the US population is overweight?

Overweight. Yeah. I correct in that. Is that right? 75. Okay. Cause I need to know. I know it was 70 at least.

I think it's around 30 to 35% is obese. Yeah. 35% of men are obese and 40% of women are obese right now. So what is it? Why? Because that seems like it's easier to do and it's a sedate. Food can be a sedation just as much as anything else. It can.

What people, well, men, since we're talking about men, what men tend to do is they live in their escape because their escape life is better than their shitty real life. And so what you need to do is get to the point where your real life is better than, and is a more enticing thing to live than living in World of Warcraft. And I'm not picking on just one game here, by the way, but playing video games. That's one of the things that we want to talk about when we say, well, men are dropping out. They're not getting degrees. They're not measuring up to women's standards. They're not marriageable. They're not economically attractive, that kind of stuff. So what do we say? They're not taking responsibility. Eating pizza, smoking weed, playing Call of Duty, and they're just happy as pigs and shit because they don't have to do anything.

And I've always said that that makes it that much easier for you as a guy if you want to excel in this day and age. All you have to do is be in shape, right? I mean, that puts you ahead of 75% of guys right then and there if you can get into shape. And you guys will probably appreciate this as well. It's like whenever I'm talking to guys and they're like wanting to change their lives, that's the first thing I tell them to do is get in the gym. And not necessarily just because you want to look good for women, but also because you get that dopamine hit and you're looking good. And it's the cycle of this positive feedback loop of getting into the gym. And it's actually something you can physically go and do instead of trying to go, I've got to really learn how to kind of game.

And I got to figure out how this business is going to work. You just get in the car and go to the gym and work out and you're going to feel better as a result of that. And that's going to affect other aspects of your life as well. So. I know you're enjoying this clip, but listen up. We have this beef company,

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So, like, any time,, like friends in the past, whenever they would bring like a younger chick around, it was always kind of like, like, okay, like where'd this come from? But you know, if looking at like your scale, like, so I'm 36 right now. So if a friend of mine brought over a 23 year old, like we'd all be kind of caught off guard.

She'd be probably smoking hot. But then the second we start talking to her, we would recognize right away, like, whoa, you're significantly younger. Like your life experience. Yeah, yeah. Your life experience is just like nowhere near where we're at. And again, I'm not saying I'm like old and wise at all. But generally, do those relationships actually last? Because I haven't seen, not that I have like a huge sample size of it,

but I haven't really seen that type of relationship pan out. Does that generally happen? That's a question I get from guys actually right around your age. Because when I peg guys' sexual market value peak being right around 36, 37, some people like, I've read Huffington Post articles saying that it's like 40 or 50. And I disagree. But like still, it's, you know, it takes longer for men to mature into their peak potential than it does for women. So that said, guys will hit me up and they'll say like they're 36 years old and say, I don't want to get role. I don't want to get with a girl who's like 18 or 22 or whatever, because they're kind of like, you know, they're not somebody that I can relate to.

because they're kind of like, you know, they're not somebody that I can relate to. But I don't want to get with a woman who's 29, 30, 31 years old, has been ran through and only wants me because I look like I'm a good prospect for the future, right? They're not in love with me or they don't, they just, I'm just the guy, right? I'm just here, it looks like it's time for me to get married, right? I don't want to do that. And I tell them this, the sweet spot really, if you read preventive medicine, you'll get this. The sweet spot for guys in your demographic is right around 26, 27 years old for women. So they have a little bit more, they're not like desperate to get with a guy because they're checking out of the sexual marketplace, but they're not like

kind of ditzy and not as, as let's just say, socially savvy as say a woman who's 22, 23. And I'm not saying that there aren't smart 22 year old, 23 year old girls there are, but the, uh, I said, I always say, if you're going to look for somebody that if you're 36 and you're like, you know what, because of religious convictions or whatever, I'm looking for a woman who I want to have kids with and I want to settle down with and I want to find a girl, whatever. And I usually tell them go for right around 26, 27, right around there. 28, maybe at the maximum end of it. 29 is when you get Tommy Lahren screeching at her cell phone saying, where are the men I want? How come you guys want a man up for me? 36 years old, you don't want to deal with that because she's already at the point where it's like she's, I'm going to say it's desperation.

I mean, even attractive women at that point still have to acknowledge that they're not going to be able to compete at the same level in the sexual marketplace at 33 as they could when they were 23. And it's not like when we talk about the wall in the manosphere, it's not that there aren't some very hot, smoking hot 34-year-old women. There are. The wall doesn't start here in the body. It starts here in the mind. And so when they're saying, well, I'm 34 years old and I know my sexual market value is perishable. It's based on how I look and how available I am and what my baggage is. And, and that's what, you know, when I, like you were saying before, when I'm trying to talk to careerist women and tell them to feminize themselves, you know, be, become more feminine and get back to that. It's, it's almost

like, not only is it insulting to them, or it sounds like it's dumbing him down. It sounds impossible because they can't get in a time machine and go back to 21 years old. Like my joke is this is that, you know know they called the store forever 21 not forever 41 so and there's a reason for that because that's the age at which women want to sort of go back in time to or think that well if i would have to do it all over again i'd be 23 again because that's when that's when guys were looking at me yeah and i wasn't visible and with like a lot of the uh because you know you do spit a lot of like statistics and just facts and research and stuff. If I'm recalling correctly, I can't remember where I heard it, but like, is it a like almost like a primal instinct for men?

Because you actually did touch on this a little bit. But is it primal instinct for men to like seek out that age specifically because um we're just like trying to um prolong and like we're trying to leave our seed somewhere that's definitely going to work out with her because she is like she's fit she's she definitely can bear a child because isn't that what we were trying to do like you know our ancestors were just trying to survive ejaculate and evacuate yes yeah um well um beauty okay so the how do I come to these determinations of like sexual market value peaks? First of all, the reason why,

and I took so much shit for this back in 2013, 2014, when I put out this graph, but you probably have seen my infamous graph, the two bell curves. And for women, it's at 23 is at the top of the bell curve. And for men, it's about 36 years old at the top there. And again, that's the time that men tend to be hitting their stride when it comes to like they're better judges of character.

If they stay in shape, they're in pretty good shape or they understand how to do it. They're still good looking. For men, men can be older and still be like very arousing and attractive to women, assuming they stay on top of their game. And then there's the, you know, the money muscles game, that confluence of those, the peak of those really comes into play. You know, they, men's hit their stride right around then for women, like I said, 23. Now, how do I come to those conclusions? Originally it was from a data set that was presented in a book called Data Clism by, and I forget the guy's name, but he was one of the CEOs or the founders of OkCupid.

And I forget the guy's name, but he was one of the CEOs or the founders of OkCupid. And again, today in 2022, in the 21st century, we have access to information on the sexual habits and the attraction habits, the dating habits of human males and human females that we've never had in the history of mankind. And so when he puts this book out, and remember, this is kind of an older book. I don't know what the stats are at this point, but when he published this, I think it was 2014, they did a couple of comparisons. And one of them was the age at which men find women the most attractive and the age at which women find men the most attractive. And so they would do it by age cohort. So it was 21, 22, 23, up to scale. would do it by age cohort so it was 21 22 23 like up and up to scale for for women it was they usually find men more attractive than at ages that are anywhere between three to seven years older than they are so if a woman is like say 30 years old she's probably going to find a guy between 30 33 and 37 years old at his most attractive to them. And that staggers by age. So if a woman's 25, it might be 25, so it'd be 28 to 32 or something like that. And it staggers up as women get older.

For men, it stays consistent all the way down the line. So a kid who is 15 years old and a guy who's 95 years old all find the same age of women attractive and that they want to get with down the line. And it's usually 22, 23, or 24. And that's how I took the average from that data set. And it has proven consistent over and over from all the research that's been done since that time up to where we are right now. So that's why I say that for women, women expect men to be older, more developed, more mature, more. I think women also understand that it takes longer for a man to mature into his peak potential. And for women, it's always men want to get with younger, hotter, tighter. They want to get with the woman who is his youth, beauty, fertility.

And usually right now in the 21st century, that woman is 23 years old. And that's why, you know, evolutionary speaking and societally speaking, that's why it's 23. And you're saying that with celebrities. I don't know if you've saw Gary Vee recently post. Yep. Oh, man. Boy, I have not heard the end of that on Instagram. Yeah, yeah.

People are... She's actually 36 or 37 years old, I think. Right, right. But he's a lot younger. But he's 50-something. Born in 1985. Yep. Trust me, everyone threw data at me.

There's not many daughters where she is. I can't believe they got divorced. I don't... Because his, I think his soon-to to be ex is like 45 or 46. We're not seeing those years younger than she is. Yeah. We're not seeing those same people marry someone that's old. They're not marrying an older woman.

They're choosing. I mean, even, even Keanu Reeves, who's like girl, I don't know if he's still with her, but his, even his girlfriend who looked,

she, she looks like she's his, his mom or his aunt or something like that. But she's still 46 and he's like my age, like 53, I think. So there's that. And then, of course, everyone wants to throw this one out there. It's Leonardo DiCaprio. And Leonardo DiCaprio, he's got to be late 40s right now.

But there are actually blogs dedicated to analyzing his dating habits from the time he was like in titanic all the way to where he is right now and all of his girlfriends are are he starts out like really young they're like 21 22 years old and then when they hit 26 he ditches them and he gets another girl who's 21 26 and it goes on and on. Like they'll track each one of those girls. And it's like, the cycle is like almost perfect. It's like 22 dumps them at 26, 22 dumps them at 26. Do you think some of the situation and some of the reason why, like some of the data that has come out and some of the maybe reason why you have a job and why you were able to write a book on this kind of stuff, do you feel like it might be like an overcorrection of quote unquote, keeping women in the kitchen from like the fifties and sixties?

And like, there's some of those old adages. There's those old like posters that people have where it says like how you should tidy the house up for your husband, have dinner ready, rub his feet, serve him a cold drink with ice. Like there's all these kinds of old of old traditional family things of America. That was American culture for 30 years or so, maybe even longer. So do you think that it has anything to do with that? And then now women are kind of more like coming into their own,

like they are voting. There's so many different things that they're doing now. And now you are starting to see some equality happen in the workplace where women are making similar amounts of money or they're up for similar jobs and those kinds of things. Do you think that that has played into it somehow or is it something else going on? So a lot of people don't want to go back to the golden era, like the romanticized days of the 1950s. Leave it to Beaver and Juneune cleaver and father knows best and you know they want like i've always joked around that like the guys in the trad con community they don't want the red pill they want a time machine they want to jump back in that time machine and go back to the 50s and you know happy days and

sock hops and shit like that you know and it's it's not going to happen first of all and the other thing is like when we romanticize certain eras i think we have we have that image like i'm just like i said i'm gen gen x right i don't think of the 1950s as any kind of golden era because i didn't experience that like firsthand so i i didn't know um but uh so we tend to romanticize those areas and we also as in doing so we also romanticize like the best best and worst aspects of those eras too. So it doesn't matter if it's the 50s or even the greatest generation, you know, in the World War II era, which by the way, there was a lot of abortion going on at that time too, you know, because of illegitimate births, because of, you know, the things that were going on during wartime. So it's not always good news and it's not always bad news. It's not always this heroic thing. Human beings are still human beings no matter what era they're from.

So with that in mind, is it an overcorrection? I don't think it was a correction. What it would imply is that the people who could appreciate what was going on in post-war america could still be in 2022 saying oh well finally we finally have corrected that now we're gonna you know as if there's some sort of like um like a i don't say conspiracy but as if there's some sort of like direction some like uh some some sort of organized centralized centralized direction to say, well, things are really screwed up then. And now we're going to overcorrect. We're going to correct that and say, oops, well, we went over our mark. Nobody's doing that. I don't I don't think I've had people ask me this. And even Elijah Schaefer asked me, says, who do you think's behind this?

I'm like, no one. No one's. Why do we need somebody to be behind it? You know who's behind it? Human beings, people, because that's just the way we are. And as great as we are, as fucked up as we are, that's, that's what we're at. That's what we're at. So they always want to say, well, is it some, the Illuminati behind the scenes, or is it like, you know, the evil, you know, evil juice, right? Or it's, is it, is it the baby eating Moloch worshiping cultists that are puppet masters behind the scenes? No, it's us. It's us. That's the problem.

It's our machine. It's our impulses. It's what we want as people. And we're not able to understand and cope and adapt to so rapid a technology and so rapid a social change as we've had just in the last 60 years. That is like a blink of an eye in human history. And so when we get to be 2022 and we're looking back and say, oh, it looks like we've overcorrected. It wasn't an overcorrection. It was just where we go as people according to what we had at that time. So when we have, let's say, the hormonal birth control, like the pill,

when the pill comes out, what comes after that? Well, we've got the sexual revolution and then we've got the seventies and the studio 54 and key parties and swingers. And now we're going to have casual sex. And we have, as a result of that, a high divorce rate, low marriage rate, and all these other things. That's not because of some like grand, you know, satanic scheme. It's because that people are just people. We're like, oh my God, we can have sex without having to worry about pregnancy. Awesome. Let's just go. Let's just go forward and see where it goes. And this is where it went. And so when people are asking me about this, it's like, oh, can we get back to that golden era? When's the pendulum going to swing back? And I'm like, the pendulum's not going to swing back because there is no pendulum.

We can only go forward. You can learn from the past, definitely, but you can only go forward with what we have right now, which is what really we've been doing for a long time. So as far as it being an overcorrection or wanting to sort of like correct injustices of the past, I think we're long past that. When we put women into the workplace, it was really a, you know, empowering, like I call it the empowerment narrative, empowering women in the workplace and in college and in, you know, Title IX and all these special dispensations and everything else. Maybe in the beginning, that was meant to be, you know, quote unquote, make a more equitable society.

But that is in no way the impetus that started that in the first place. So when I am talking about like, for instance, I don't, like people really give me grief about this. I don't believe in equality and I don't mean equality in the sense that like, oh, we shouldn't all have equal access or equal opportunities or something. I'm not saying that. The reason I don't believe in quality as the way that people present it right now. So when people say we need a more equal society, well, what does that mean? Because there are certain things that make me who I am that are going to be unequal in whatever task it happens to be that I'm challenged with that somebody else is challenged with as well. So if the challenge right now is, Rolo, I need you to bench 335, you guys could probably do that, right? My max is like 225. That's still good. So that's very unequal. And I want special

dispensation. I need a social program to help me feel more equitable. That's bullshit, right? It was the same thing when we look at, say, the women's soccer team wanting the equal pay for playing the same sport that the men's U.S. soccer team makes, which is ridiculous because women don't play at the same level as men. And so as far as the market is concerned, we say, oh, well, they should be making the same amount of money. No, because they don't generate the same amount of money. Is that unequal? Yes, it's very unequal, but it's unequal because of that task. So if the task is rollo bench 335, I'm unequal to that task. But if the task is bench 200, then maybe I'm equal to that task. Or if it's, I'm a man and I want to have a baby, you know, and I want to believe that men can have babies. Right. Then as a human male with male parts, that's very unequal because the task is something that I can't possibly do.

that we can just imagine or socially construct equality in a world that is inherently unequal, depending on what the challenge is of that particular individual. So in those terms, no, I do not believe in equality because no one wants to define what the challenge is that I should be equal to that with everybody else. Well, I'm curious. I know people have asked you since you're married, but knowing everything that you do now and like when you published the Rational Mail, what, 2013, you said? 2013. 2013. So that means you were already like more than 15 years of marriage in, right? But understanding all of those statistics, would you have, I can't even say would you have changed anything, But do you think knowing what you know now as a young man, would you still have gotten married? Cause you've had a successful marriage.

You stayed faithful. Um, but knowing what you know about dynamics, would you still have making the, made the choice to get married to one woman at that point? Um, you're not the first one to ask me this. I would probably have still gotten married but i probably would have waited a little bit longer what age did you get married i got married at 28 why would you have waited i probably would have waited to about 30 and people will criticize me for this too because they're like well you know rola says don't even consider monogamy until

you're 30 right well yeah because i didn't know what I was going to become, right. At 35, 36, right. I've told you guys before, it was like, you know, the, the really, when you're hitting your stride as a man or the age at which you should be able to hit your peak potential around 35, 36 years old. And what I think more and more people are, more and more guys are experiencing right now is they're getting to that point and they're going, oh man, Rolla was right because now I'm finally hitting my stride and i've got i'm finally in the position of sexual selection that i that that a woman of 23 year old you know 23 year old woman has been enjoying since since that time right and now i'm at a point where i can make the decision on who i want to be with rather than who i get to be with right and tell

who i have to settle for who i want to be with. Now, I'm like asking me this question is like a little bit, let's say, you know, it's like bias or skewed a little bit is because my background and what I did prior to getting, you know, married with my wife, like people want to say, well, you know, Rolo doesn't know the game or he hasn't been dating for a long time. So he can't really speak to this or that, but I have had a fairly unique set of circumstances for my life um primarily uh because when i was growing up i grew up in southern california i was in the hollywood metal scene for a long time i always say my rock star 20s uh my notch count is right around 41 or 42 women and my um right does that sound like a lot to you by the way does that sound like i'm a man

whore by saying like not with a ponytail it doesn't no i mean but because it doesn't sound like you're a man whore because there's guys because there's guys like when i was on the pat campbell show i'd said i once said that just because i just used to you know blurt in it as public knowledge right pat campbell and his audience were like, oh my God, you know, like they couldn't believe like that was my number. And then on the other hand, like if I'm talking to guys who are like, quote unquote, dating coaches or PUA's,

that's like, those are rookie numbers. Like they're like triple digits and they're like, man, that was my, you know, last three months kind of thing, right? At least that's what they would like to believe. But I know guys who have triple digits. I know women who who have triple digits so i always feel like either i like didn't get enough or i got too much depending on the audience that i'm talking to but so i mean under most of that was between the ages of say 17 and when i first got laid and and we're aware i'm at

right now right so um so i i lived through that. I lived through the, the sort of the, the, those years, um, my, my work experience has been primarily in two industries and that has been gambling, like, like casino marketing and promotions, like doing special events and promotions and then wine and spirits. So I've worked in primarily liquor for a long time, like prior to, prior to 2020 when everything went to hell. Um, it was, it was primary, like I've worked in primarily liquor for a long time, like prior to 2020 when everything went to hell. It was primary. Like I've got ownership stake in a couple of liquor brands right now. They still get residuals from.

But other than that, like when I was coming up, I had to be the guy who would go to martini fests and pick the booth candy to come along. I had to select very attractive women and I had to be around the beautiful people all the time. And I think that a lot of my work and a lot of my observations came from sort of being a student of human behavior. So you're at these social events. I'm in clubs all the time. I'm at martini fests. I'm doing all these things. And I'm out at least, if not every weekend, every other weekend. And I'm the only one sober there because I got to work the event. So I'm watching what's going on in the interactions. And I'm sort of taking mental notes as I'm doing this.

And then what happens the next day, I'll go on my blog or I'll go on a forum or whatever. I'll just type out what I saw and sort of do these kind of field reports. And that's really how a lot of this came to be. And so I had that, that is sort of a unique experience. And then also I got involved with a woman right around my mid to late twenties who was borderline personality disorder. And so I I've been through that. So I can speak to a lot of different things. I can speak to being single. I can speak to being, you know, in charge to being in charge of having command presence and being the authority on liquor shoots and stuff like that. I can speak to women who have borderline personality disorder and getting guys who are wrapped

up in that still to this day. I can speak to how it is to be married. I can speak how it is to raise a daughter from infancy to 23 years old. And I have a real depth of experience when it comes to what it is that I write about. So would I do have done anything different? That's kind of like saying, well, what would you tell your 18-year-old self? Crypto and hold. That's what I would tell my 18 year old self buy a lot of apple stock

right i don't know um i don't i i think always think that's kind of a ludicrous question because then i wouldn't be the person that i am right now and learn from the mistakes that i had made i think a lot of people read my work or they'll they're very complimentary to me and they'll say oh roly you know you got everything right. And I'm like, no, no, no. The reason why I'm able to write the way I do is because I got a lot of stuff wrong and I corrected. And thank God I didn't make some really hectic mistakes that I probably could have made. So would I have gotten married?

Yeah, I probably still would have gotten married. But remember, it was a different time back then, too. So the idea and we didn't have social media. We didn't have all that. If I had the same data and the understanding of what things were going to be like, I think I would have looked at it in a different perspective. I think I probably, as I said, I would have probably waited a little bit longer to see how things panned out. But again, I wouldn't be who I am right now if it hadn't been for 25 years of marriage. And I'm not saying, oh, my wife is just my strength and my rock.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that the experience that I had from 28 to 53 was integral to my work. I'm really big on encouraging people to follow their interests. And one of the things you said on a recent podcast was people underestimate the power of genuine desire. And I wrote that down because I was like, damn, I was like, that is really powerful. It is a powerful thing. What are some ways you encourage people to investigate that, you know, not just from like a sexual partner standpoint, but maybe a philosophical standpoint, or, you know, you believe people should try to spend some time, right. Rather than whacking off 24 seven, say maybe spend some time on themselves and what it's like to be alone and these kinds of things.

Oh yeah. Uh, especially that's more important today, uh, because we live in such an age of distraction. I'm distracted all the time. I try to not be, but we don't set aside time when we're not multitasking, I think. And that it takes right now, we have so many distractions in the modern world that we have to actually be mindful. We can sell a course on mindfulness because we're so, which is itself a distraction, right? So we have to, you know, to say, okay, slow down, go fishing, right? Or go meditate somewhere, go take ayahuasca and some, you know, Amazon rainforest and think about things, right? And that we have to be reminded to do that. We didn't used to have to do that. I, you guys probably already know this about me. I play in a band. And so when I am learning music or I'm still playing music, it's something that I need

in my life because it forces me to do one thing at one time. I can't multitask. I can't have this going on and play my, you know, create anything or do anything. And so I was just telling, I just have one of the, one of the women that I counsel, I was just telling her that sometimes you just need to stare at the ceiling. And that seems like a waste of time. To me, I'm like, what do you mean? I'm going to waste an hour staring at the ceiling? Yeah, yeah, you are.

Because that's the only way you're really going to come to any kind of like creative thinking or to think outside the box or to innovate. creative thinking or to, to think, you know, to, to think outside the box or to innovate. And, uh, just even suggesting that it's really hard. It's hard. It's hard for me to say that. Like, I, I really like enjoy, as you can see, I like, I like hockey. I like, I like football, but like, I have a real tough time watching any more than like one quarter of football. Um, I am, I mean, unless the Knights are in the, you know, Stanley club playoffs, then like, I might not watch all, all of the game, right? Just see who won, who didn't. Because to me, I'm thinking like at the end of all of this, two hours later, I go, what could I have done with that time?

Where could I have gone with that? What potential did I lose? And of course, the older you get, the more you think about those things because you're trying, at least in my case, I'm trying to a dent in the universe right so i want to finish my book i want to do the next book i want to do something right i'm always trying to be creative once by the way once you stop sedating yourself as you were saying before once you stop jerking off the porn once you stop taking your drugs or alcohol or whatever else you will find, that you have a lot more time to do things. You have a lot, you're like, oh, I've got all this energy. I got all this, it's not even so much energy.

It's just like, I feel like I got to be productive, right? Because now I'm not like sleeping it off. I'm not recovering from the night before. I'm actually a productive, much more efficient, productive human being as a result of that. And now I'm living in the real world instead of my escape. What the hell am I going to do? Right. How do I how do I how do I focus this?

And so when I watch just watching a two hour movie, I'm like, oh, God damn it. I just blew two hours watching this. You know, even if it was a really enjoyable movie, I might be like, oh, God, I felt like I could have finished this thing if I didn't, you know, if I had done that. But as far as genuine desire is concerned, that has been sort of the focus of my work, really, since day one. made way back in the, in my forum when I was on, you know, internet forums was that you cannot negotiate genuine desire. And I came to that, you have to know how I came to that because I had so many friends at that time who were like struggling in their marriages or they wanted to, they want to go to counseling, like marriage counseling or something. And they all came back with the same story. And I was, this was really when I was in, in, uh, in college and university. I was, I got two degrees. I've got the, my BFA and I've got my BA in psychology. And when I was doing the psychology work, I had to do peer counseling

with guys who were like 45 to 65 years old. It was the unsexy guys that they didn't want, you know, all the, all the guys I was with, you know, cause I'm an older student anyways, all the guys that I was with, they wanted to, you know, counsel young ladies or they wanted, it wasn't sexy work, right? But here I am hanging out with guys who are in their 50s and they're crying in my lap and saying, she would just tell me what she wanted. I would do it. You know, how do I get her to have sex with me again? Or, you know, what do I have to do to make her love me? And it's always this, you know, the next task kind of thing.

And there, of course, all of them are going to like marriage counseling. And the most common thing that would happen in marriage counseling was the counselor would say, okay, well, Mr. Jones, Mrs. Jones over here says that she doesn't want to have sex with you because you don't do enough dishes and you don't change the baby and you don't, you know, whatever. You don't change the oil or whatever. You mow the lawn and take out the trash, whatever. You know, you don't do these things. And she says that just doesn't put her in the mood.

So it's like this hostage negotiation. You know, what are we going to do? How do I negotiate to get what I want? Well, I want sex, but she doesn't want to have sex with me. And she says it's because, you know, chore play, right? She doesn't want, I don't do the dishes enough, whatever the hell it is. And so I have to do these things to get her to have sex with me. And that's negotiating her genuine desire.

She doesn't want to fuck you. She's not going to fuck you. She doesn't want to have sex with you. She does. There is no genuine desire there. She doesn't want to have sex with you. There is no genuine desire there. So when you negotiate something like, and almost universally, every one of these guys ended up divorced at some point because they were trying to negotiate desire, a genuine desire.

And when you negotiate someone, especially women's who are in a position of power to begin with, when you, because they're the ones that we have to, you have to appeal to the pussy, right? To get to that point, you have to jump through these hoops or do these X, Y, and Z. And as a result, you're negotiating for her compliance. And it's no longer about desire, it's about obligation for her. And so negotiating desire only ever leads to obligated compliance. And so that was something I sort of came up with. And it's actually one of the iron rules of Tomasi, right? You cannot negotiate genuine desire. It's there or it's not. And so, for instance, I think one of the other maxims of the red pill slash manosphere is that women make rules for beta males and they break rules for alpha males.

So the guy that is the hot guy in the foam cannon party when she's in spring break in Cancun that she, you know, I was drunk. He was cute. And one thing led to another. That guy didn't have to jump through the hoops that the guy at 29 does because he's got to have a job. He's got to love his mom. He's got to love this. The curtains have to be from bed, bath and beyond. And the humidity in the room has to be this.

And the Venus has to align with Pluto. And then I'll want to get with you, right? That guy in her co-ed years didn't have to do that. They break rules for alphas and they make rules for betas. That goes directly back to negotiating desire. So one of the things I tell guys all the time is, is if she's making rules for you, odds are she looks at you as sort of like the dad potential or the boyfriend potential rather than the hot guy that she really wants to have genuine desired sex with.

So what type of information or education on relationships are you arming your daughter with? I'm curious. I have, I have a 13 year old. I didn't know that was coming. Yeah. I have a 13 year old daughter and you know, we don't really talk too much about it. She's still very like, I don't know. I don't want boys and dah, dah, dah. But I'm like, you know, she's 13. So eventually someday it's going to happen. So I'm just curious, you know, like what are you sending her out in the world with? Well, she's really Tomasi's daughter, first and foremost. There you go. Well, she's Rola Tomasi's daughter, first and foremost.

There you go. To give you that. She is, like I said, she's finishing up her post-grad work. She'll be graduating this year. She's already got a very positively masculine alpha male, I dare say alpha male boyfriend who is a hockey player. And I think that she is, as a result of me being who I am, like my, my wife and I have been together for 25 years, right? There's, we, I can count on the fingers of one hand, we genuinely love each other. We still want to get with each other. We still, you know, I respect her. She respects me. I've actually, if you ask anybody who's ever met me and my wife at the same time, they'll tell you the same story, which is she's

always looking up to me. She's always admired, she admires me, right? I mean, that's, I might sound like I'm patting myself on the back or glossing myself, but if you were, if she was in the room right now, you'd see exactly. And I think that having that sort of healthy relationship between mommy and daddy is very, it's, it's instrumental. It's, it's probably the most important thing you can do as, as parents is to be together and to actually be in love with each other. Because what you're doing is you're setting the example, like as positively masculine conventionally masculine man i'm setting the exam something exam setting the mod on the model for masculinity for well i had a son my son but also you know my daughter same thing for the female that's why i keep saying that like men and women are better together than they are apart that's the same thing with parenting as well is the if you are staying together and i

don't mean stay together for the kids i I mean, you got to have a healthy relationship, but the, you have to also remember that your demons, like when, like children watch what you do, they don't listen to what you say. So I can sit there and impart these, you know, dad wisdoms and stuff like that and try to like say, here, let me tell you, I'm going to teach you a lesson, kid. It's better if you demonstrate. Lesson for life, demonstrate, do not explicate. And as a result, I've lived out, according to red pill awareness and my relationship with my wife is very healthy. My marriage has always been very healthy. As a result, I have a very healthy daughter who's going off into the world and I feel like she's better prepared for that. Now, as far as red pill is concerned, and this is what everybody asks is, well, did you do teach her this

stuff? Has she read your books? And the answer to that is she's read the first one. And the, and I don't know if I have to ask her, I don't know if she's read any of the other ones. I know she's read the first one, but just like, she'll use my vernacular. She'll say, do you think this guy, she'll ask me like, do you think this guy's beta? And I have to kind of like take a pause. Like, are you asking me as dad or as role? And so, so I'm trying to relate to her in those terms, but I have told her and she knows this. I said, look, you know, you're 23 years old. You were at the apogee. You're at the apex of your sexual market value right now, make the most of it. Do what you, use it however you're going to use it. I've said the same thing that I say to other young women who are even on Fresh and Fit. I'll say, you need to realize that you've been handed

a check for $10 million. And by the time you get to 29, you will have to have invested that very wisely in some sense. That's your sexual capital is you've been handed this check of all this money and you can use this agency to invest it, or you can just blow it on yacht parties and hookers and blow. How do you want to use it? Because when you get to 29, you'll have had to have a good investment either in your own future or your security or in getting married or however you choose to do that. But the fact of the matter is, is that women's agency and women's sexual capital, I guess, for lack of a better term, all comes at once, like 18 to 28, between that stretch right

there. And you got to think of it in these terms too. I don't think I've ever brought this up yet, is that when women are between the ages of 18 and 28, and something I tell my daughter that is the 10 year stretch or the 10 year window in which you have the most maneuverability and the most you know sexual capital to do the things that you want to but at that point once you get to be about 30 31 I'm not saying your life's over, ladies, but I'm just saying is that after that, from say 30 until you are 90, 100, I hope you live a very long life, but however, the rest of your life is going

to be primarily focused on long-term security. Whereas that 10-year stretch from 18 to 28 is where you can maximize that or optimize what's going to happen in the future. And most women get caught like at 35, 36, 38 years old, and they end up on Steve Harvey saying, where's my man, Steve? I keep praying to God and hoping that the man is going to drop down and arrive on my doorstep, and that guy's not coming. The Prince Charming is not coming. That guy is not forthcoming. And if he is, he's not going to be the ideal that you imagine that he's going to be.

And so women need long-term security far longer than men do, first of all, but far longer in life when it comes to like, say, 30, well, say 29, all the way up to however long they're going to live. That's when they're looking for long-term security because their sexual market value is perishable. It declines with age. It declines with weight. It declines with, you know, name the variables that in some way drag that down. And that happens over the course of say, you know, from the time they're 28 on until the end of their life. So they've got a 10-year window to be as selective as they possibly can. And for a lot of guys, by the way, in this generation who are sort of like the simps and the beta males and the incels and everything, women seem very, very powerful at that time.

And that's why they get addicted to OnlyFans. That's why it's not the sex aspect. It's that they want to have this sort of virtual vicarious relationship with the chick on the other side of the screen. It's like, you can get off on free porn. You can go buy a hooker anytime you want, but they spend small fortunes monthly on women who are on OnlyFans. Why is that? Because they're looking for that.

They're looking for that, that back. They want that connection. They want that human connection. It's not so much about the sex as it is about like that woman actually saying hey how was your day you know so there's the between like say 18 and 28 that's when women seem very very powerful and then of course guys when when women hit the wall quote-unquote wall they're either too happy or they're too sad about it yeah only fans is that next level of actually the metaverse is probably going to do something talk about sedation there's your sedation right there that's a really bad one too yeah for those in the

audience i think about this layering sedation upon sedation too so if it's porn that's one thing if it's only fans that's another if you're drinking and smoking weed at the same time you're on only fans that's another working on any new books. Oh yeah, I am. I'm working on my fifth book right now, which is called the player's handbook. Oh, it's a,

it's not a, it's not a how to book. It's a, why things work book. It's a, it's a understanding men's men's nature and women's nature, but also like why certain things, a certain behaviors work.

Have you guys seen a Tinder swindler yet? Yes, I have. Yeah. I haven't finished it. For instance, why certain things, certain behaviors work. Have you guys seen a Tinder swindler? Yes, I have. I haven't finished it. For instance, why did like, okay, unethically, right? But why did what he did work with those women? That's getting to the nuts and bolts of like why those like we think, oh, that's horrible. I can't believe you manipulated her. Yeah, but why did that manipulation work?

That's really what the book is about. You know, I have one last question, Rolo, and there's so many ways I want to phrase this question, but you've, you've been in a successful marriage for 20 something years, I'm assuming monogamous, 25 years. Um, and in, within the context of men who do want to get married to one woman, uh, within the red pill, there's a lot of, um, it's a lot of channels that, you know, it's like you're writing a book, the player's handbooks's a lot of um there's a lot of channels that you know it's like you're writing a book the player's handbooks a lot of guys let's say that they haven't been able to have a lot of sexual experiences they want to be able to be a player but they also want to be able to be married at some point if they want to be able to have family and at the end of the day if you in most cases if you want to be able to build a family with

one person you have to have some sexual self-control. And one thing that I don't hear a lot when it comes to a lot of this stuff, I don't want to put my morality into this, but you do need to have some sexual self-control at some point if you want to be able to have a successful marriage within the context of monogamy. Because if you don't want that, you could do open, you could do polyamory, you could be like Kevin Samuels says as a high-value man, have multiple women. could do open you could do polyamory you could be like kevin samuels says as a high value man have multiple women or you know what i mean but what i'm wondering is where do you do you think the topic of sexual self-control for men because there's going to come a point where once you have a lot of sex i think that you can realize it's it's kind of same shit at some point um does that topic ever come up do you think that's relevant Do you think that's important? I get into it with Myron all the time on Fresh and Fit. I'm not saying that I necessarily disagree with him because I think that even Kevin Samuels and Myron can agree that I think they say these things to sort of trigger.

But I think there's a kernel of truth behind it because usually what they were saying is, shouldn't a high-value man be able to cheat? I'm not saying he should cheat't a high value man be able to cheat? Not saying he should cheat, but shouldn't he be able to cheat? So when we're talking about becoming the best version of yourself, women want to get with the guy that other men want to be and other women want to bang. So if that's the case and that guy's, particularly in the 21st century, where a man has more power and more maneuverability and more opportunity outside of marriage than inside of marriage, does it not make just pragmatic sense that he should just spin plates? Well, that works up to a point because most, first of all, you got to remember, statistically speaking, most guys will never, never enjoy that. They will never have more than like the limited amount of partners that they have. And another reason for that is, we just said a minute ago, it's like the rate of sexlessness amongst, you know millennials and generation z are just

over overall are not having as much sex as say like the boomers and gen x um so you have to look at it in terms of like why what's the desire what's the like a lot of guys in the sort of the black pill mig tau teen cell and i'm i know i'm i'm cross crossing over a lot in those but in those communities and i realize they're separate communities um there is a common sort of thread which is the juice ain't worth the squeeze right so they're like why would i bother learning game i don't want to you know i'm not going to read rolo's stuff because you know i don't want to get with a ran through chick who who only wants me because of my money or wants me because of her only plan B option or something. You name it.

Name the excuse, right? And it's really, I don't want to do anything to maximize my burden of of performance or or become the best version of myself because i don't see the payoff i don't see the reward for that and so when we look at like rates of sexlessness i can directly attribute that to that attitude of the latter half of the millennials and certainly gen z right now um and then maybe even some of the just some gen xers too but um i think it i get i get run up the flagpole for saying like, oh, well, you're, you know, you're emphasizing, you're married, but you're emphasizing sort of spinning plates, right? Which is like dating non-exclusively. And what people don't realize is in my first book,

there's a six part series in there called plate theory. And it's about spinning plates. And that's just a euphemism for dating non-exclusively yeah and it's like explore your options and primarily i wrote that because too many guys were what i call serial monogamists and they would go from one serial relationship to the next to the next and they break up have this horrible experience and they will go and repeat it again and rather than having uh coming at dating from a position of abundance, they were coming at it from a position of scarcity. And that's really what plate theory, people criticize me and say, well, you're just, you just want men to bang anything on two legs. And I'm like, no, that's not what it's about. And if you read the very last chapter of that plate theory, the sixth chapter, it is about

transitioning from plate, you know, from spinning plates to becoming monogamous because that's what most guys eventually want to get to. As a matter of fact, it's been my experience that most guys want to learn game not because they want to be players, but because they want to get laid at all. Or they want to understand women's nature so that they can get their wives back into the bedroom with them again. So the red pill is not just for players. It's not just for PUAs. It's not just for, again, it's a praxeology. It's not an ideology. It is a loose give it i mean loose in the terms that it's evolving still right now um but it is um it's not it's not intended for any one thing it's intended for education more than anything and i think when we characterize it as being just about you know getting laid or just about like spinning plates or or you know powerful men should have have multiple wives or whatever else or

multi you know in muslim cultures you can have up to four wives. And so suddenly that's a red pill religion. It's not so much about the variety. It's like, what is that guy using the data or the tools that I say to build the life that he wants? So if he's already married, maybe he's using it for his marriage. Maybe if he's a player and he wants to increase his notch count, then that's what he'll use it for.

Most guys are that 80 percenters, like I told you before, and they're trying to find a way to get into the 20 percent and just to become desirable. Most, and I have in the first book, I have a chapter in there also called Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite. And I stole the children with dynamite aspect from a guy named Ross Jeffries. And he mentioned this in the book, The Game by Neil Strauss. He says, giving these guys game skills, like these guys who don't, who never got laid,

or they've never even kissed a girl, they're still virgins, giving them game skills to do so is like giving children dynamite. And the reason he said that is because these guys are not prepared for what comes after getting laid because they're not using it to get, you know, to spin plates and get a lot. They just want to get with the girl who wouldn't fuck them in high school. You know, they just want to get with the girl who that they think is their dream girl. They're one, their soulmate. girl. They're one, they're soulmate. And if they just had the secret formula or the secret, you know, template to, to get her to be with him, then everything would be all right. And I've seen countless guys do exactly this. They'll be like, oh, Rollo, I read your book and I finally got my

dream girl. Thanks, man. I'll see you later. Bye. Right. And they don't big, then they come back, you know, six or eight months later and they're just like devastated because she ended up like leaving him because he wasn't who she thought he was because of him learning these learning learning game and not really becoming more red pill aware he just had the techniques down he didn't understand her nature and he didn't understand his own nature and as a result it kind of exploded in his face children with dynam dynamite. And most guys, I wouldn't worry about the red pill or game or master. I wouldn't worry about that influence creating this generation of asshole player jerks who are arrogant and don't give a shit about women.

I would be worried more about the guys who just want it for one thing. They just want it for that one purpose to get with that one girl and they'll use it and then it blows up in their face. And I think that is something that I'm more concerned with than actually creating this new generation of players. But again, it's just giving them the tools and the instruction and the education so that they can use that. Some guys are going to burn their houses down, right?

I compare the red pill to fire. Like I'm Prometheus, right? I give you fire. And so you can use fire to cook your food and you can use it to warm your home, or you can use it to burn your neighbor's home down and you can burn your own home down and you can use it to really destroy yourself as well. It just depends on what the application of it is. And I've said this before, I'll leave you guys with this, is that the red pill doesn't exist so that men will hate women. It exists so that you won't hate women for what they can never be to you. And that's the thing that I think primarily a lot of players and guys struggle with, is they think that it's

endemically misogynistic or it's like men are complaining. We're complaining about women or they're incel losers and who hurt you. That comes next, right? But it's not about being bitter. It's not about hating women. In fact, when guys get into the anger phase, they're not angry at women. They're angry at themselves because they believed all this nonsense for as long as they did, and they got nothing out of it. And now they're learning this stuff, and they pick up my book or whoever's book, and they become something more than what they were before.

And it's kind of disillusioning for those guys because they thought those girls were like sugar and spice, right? They thought they should be this one way. They're playing by these rules and find out that they're not actually playing by these rules. So there's going to be anger, but it's not meant to be directed at women. It's usually directed at themselves. Thank you so much for your time today, Rolo. Where can people find you? Sure.

You can find me at therationalmale.com. That's my blog. All my work is on Amazon. Just type in The Rational Male on Amazon. You'll get all four books. My most recent one is Religion, where I explore red pill aspects of religion, intersexual dynamics, I should say. And then my charter book, The Bible of the Manuscript is The Rational Male. That's the very first one published in October 1st, 2013.

It's available on Audible as well. And if you want to track me down or talk to me, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram. And also I have, of course, my YouTube channel, which is I usually do a live stream every Sunday at 4 p.m. Eastern. And then I usually do a show midweek too on Wednesdays, but this is my midweek show today.

So thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate it show midweek too on Wednesdays, but this is my midweek show today. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Yeah. I really appreciate it. Thanks again. Have a great day. See you later.

Thank you. Thank you. Fuck. That was dope. What do you guys think? What's a run through mean? He kept saying women run through. What's that mean?

You're joking my guy, right? Yeah. You gotta be joking. He's fucking me. I will start off because I love that term. i know i was cracking up so i was laughing so hard um just because i was so unaware of who he was and his actual book i was just taking in outside things and you know like i told you before we got on air i was just like oh this is like on

the same level as like some migtao shit or whatever I was so far off and I'm glad I was but I don't know I dig what he's saying I can definitely see where like if I'm having this conversation with my wife and I'm explaining hey check out this graph and like you're way out of the the peak now like that's that's not fun but also like it makes sense and another thing though is like I'm really stoked because like I met my wife when she was oh man like 27 or 28 I was about the same age as well a little bit younger but like as time has gone on like she's gotten hotter in my opinion like she's gotten better so like we're I'm gonna say going against what he would typically I guess maybe educate correct me if I'm wrong so it just makes me happy because I'm going to say going against what he would typically, I guess, maybe educate, correct me if I'm wrong.

So it just makes me happy because I'm like, yeah, we are, you know, not the, what I guess would typically be happening in today's modern age. Yeah, you can alter that and you can, I mean, some things are undeniable. I mean, people get older, right? And it's more impactful and it's more hurtful to a woman in the marketplace as we're talking about dating to get older. And that's why there's so much Botox and plastic surgery and BBLs and all these different things is to try to keep that. They're trying to keep up with their previous selves, you know? And so, and then men can prolong a lot of these things too. And with like TRT or even just a guy, just, you know, having some personal development

and becoming something. One of the things that he says, I don't know how he words it exactly, maybe Nsema can help, but I think he says that men have to become and women just are. And that kind of sounds insulting. And I kind of sounds insulting.

And I kind of, I understand why that would, it does not really worded well, but I like to just try to stick with how are things helpful. And I, as a guy, I can say for sure for me, I did have to become, I had to like, it took me a long time to figure anything out. And I still don't think I have much figured out, but it took me a long time to figure some shit out and I would imagine women probably go through something similar

but because he's not a woman and because I'm not a woman it's hard for us to have that same perspective. Yeah, and then real quick what I also do really like is he's trying to just help that 80% of dudes

that are not in that top 20. When he said that I was just like, oh my gosh. Like, shit, I hope someone, fuck. And that's not a big room to be in, but hopefully I was in that top 20. But that's crazy. And then, but him just saying like,

I'm just trying to get them to just get laid or whatever. Like, I'm just trying to help those guys that have never been laid. I'm not helping the guys that are like trying to be players and just get laid all the time. You know, so again, that's just along with like the outside influences of stuff that i was like checking comments and stuff not actually checking the direct source for the information oh yeah so that was my very very big mistake paying attention to the comments of his videos can be very misleading into what you

like correct what what is actually being mentioned because a lot of people in his comments are doomers a lot of people in his comments are like it's A lot of people in his comments are like, it's doom and gloom, like woman or this and woman or that. It's like, and that's, I think also why when women see his content, they think, Oh, he hates women. Like, no, no, no, no, no. You're paying attention to a few people that are saying a few negative things. Like he doesn't hate women, doesn't hate men. He's just putting out statistics and trying to help people out. And it's like, it's interesting. Cause like I dated a lot in 2021. I talked to a lot of people I saw, and I talked to a lot of women about stuff like this. Cause I was actually just very interested. I mean, I, I, I was in a relationship for four years, right? So the dating marketplace was very different. Um, and it is

very interesting what you see. Like I've seen quite a few Tinder profiles of women, like what, what you see like i've seen quite a few tinder profiles of women like what that what is on their screen for men and the options that women have are it's when he's saying their smv or sexual marketplace value is is high in their early 20s he's not joking like these women have thousands of men in their inboxes thousands of men in their dms it's you don't have to work at us like because all men like all men are going to come to you anyway. But what he says when men have to become within the context of the sexual marketplace is like you're looked at not for some. If you're good looking, it's going to be easier to get sex. But at the end of the day, you're also looked at for what you provide and what have you done.

What's your status? So that is something that takes work. It takes development. It takes time to get a good job something that takes work. It takes development. It takes time to get a good job, to make money. It takes time. So when he says you have to become, like, to be valuable to a woman, yes, you have to become. And it is what it is. That's the fact of it.

It's like there's nothing we can do about it other than become, other than muscle, money. Game. Game. other than become, other than muscle, money, game. It sounds very crude the way he puts it, but at the end of the day, everything we talk about on the podcast is just trying to help not just men, but people become stronger, people become better, mentally, financially, physically, all of that stuff.

And by doing that, if you're single, it's going to allow you to become more desirable to the opposite sex. It's just a byproduct. I think one of the things you said that I i just like a take home from it is just like same person like it's not gonna be the same person the same person that you might want to bang is not might not be the same person that you want to marry and then his uh perspective on for women uh you know the the guy that she wants to hook up with versus the guy that she is going to find,

uh, some of those other factors, uh, of, uh, when she's kind of done dating and she wants to like settle down with somebody are going to be way different as well. So I just, uh, I never really thought about some of those things. And so it's good to have someone kind of present you with some information, uh, in that I, for me, I just got really lucky lucky. I didn't date a whole lot. And then I just happened to meet my wife when I was really young. And the one thing I would maybe disagree with him on is that if you find somebody that's great, then you found someone that's great.

That's it. You find someone that's fucking great, they're great, figure it out. I don someone that's fucking great. They're great. Figure it out. You know, I don't think that you necessarily have to wait around and I understand like, yeah, that would be that, you know, it'd be great to have these, uh, total ideals say, Hey, let me, uh, you know, fuck around for a little while and I'll come back to you. But then what if you lost that person, you know? So, uh, you know, you don't want to have that fear hanging over you either that you got to hang on to the first chick that says

hello to you either. Uh, but I would just say like, if you meet the right person, you meet the right person. You know, I, I get what you're saying there. And for the people that were able to meet that right person like yourself, that's, that's amazing. And if you do manage to meet somebody and it's just and they just meld, everything just melds, yeah, you'll always have in the back of your mind the opportunity cost, like, oh, what am I missing out on because of this? But at the end of the day, that can be a very beautiful thing. But one thing that I can totally agree with him on is do not have the scarcity mindset as a man. I dated a woman that was not good for me

for four years. Um, stayed through a lot of stupid shit for four years to make it work, just to try to make it work. I can't, my, my mom, uh, my mom and dad got divorced. So I wasn't the kind of person that I was like, we can work through problems, right? It wasn't necessarily scarcity, but more so we can work through these issues. But those are an issues I should have even fucking dealt with. Right. Um, and I'm like, you know, I thought she was beautiful, all this, all of that. But at the end of the day, I did have a scarcity mindset when it came to that relationship. And when I got out of that relationship and I dated a lot, right, I realized that there is a lot of women out here. There's tons, there's, there's infinite,

like just a crazy amount of women out here and yes i do want to settle with one and build a family with one but if they don't align with the things that i want i do not need to stay for that shit and a lot of men and women um believe that they need to stay through bullshit with a person because of love right and that's a scarcity mindset because of time or because of time i had the sunken cost cost theory. I put in four years. I'm like, I've got to work this shit out. This is four years of my life. Right?

But I lost that scarcity mindset. I shed that shit. And I totally agree with what he's saying there. The idea when he was talking about spinning plates, being open when you're dating multiple people. I was open when I was dating. When I say open, I mean I was letting the people I was dating know that I was dating multiple people. And if you're not okay with that, that's fine. But this is how it is because I had to weigh out options.

I had to figure out what was out there. And that may be something hard for a man or a woman to hear. But at the end of the day, when you're young, it might be necessary for you to date multiple people and see what's out there, see what your options are rather than seeing one thing. And I don't like to use the term settling, but just sticking with that because that's what that person wants at the time, you know? And it's, I think also it is hard to get rid of the grass is always greener syndrome because there's always going to be other people. And when you choose to settle, you choose to settle with that individual.

But if you don't have the scarcity mindset and if you date multiple people and you've done things, it gets easier, I think, to stick with one person because you now know what's out there for the most part. He also has mentioned that men will stay in a relationship longer than women will when there's issues. So that's pretty interesting. He probably has stats to kind of back that up, but I've heard a lot of guys complain and they're not even, they're not even thinking of making a move. They're not thinking of, you know,

they're not even thinking of having a conversation. So much, definitely divorce is not on their radar. They're not even thinking of bringing it up, how they're unhappy about a particular thing. So I'm sure, and I want people to keep in mind that a lot of Rolo Tomasi's work, like some of the stuff that I saw, he talks very often about how there are outliers to all these things. He's not saying like, this happens this way all the time. And the age of 23 for women and stuff like that, like it can obviously vary, you know, depending on, you know, a million different factors and same thing with some of the stats from

men and some of the stats that he's pulling. It's like stats change all the time. We can utilize stats to show just about anything in our favor and so forth. But I do believe there is he i do believe he has a lot of great points how true they are you know that's kind of up up to your interpretation yeah and i know we we always poke fun at nsema and say that you're he's in the bubble so when people i'm not gonna do that right now i'm actually gonna be more supportive um just because when people oh well i tried a bank shot i saw that uh when people say like oh and see it's easy because you're you to like not have the sunken uh whatever

you called it sunken costume uh the scarcity scarcity minds that's the one yeah but like dude like that's what this whole podcast is about is like getting better so that way you don't ever have to feel that way you know like we can all, we're not going to look exactly like in SEMA, but like we can get better. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is because I was on our buddy Mo's podcast, Habits of the Few. And we were just talking about just a myriad of things, but we were talking about my divorce. And I had mentioned like, yeah, I had zero confidence. And he's just like, well, for somebody with zero confidence, you still were able to get married. And I was like, well, I got married and stayed in a bad relationship because I had zero confidence that I would find anything else. So it was like a weird scarcity mindset,

but also like I wasn't working on myself. Once I was able to get out of that relationship, I started working on myself and thankfully I found somebody that was also working on herself. But without that, like, yeah, dude, like I would have been stuck if I didn't on myself and thankfully I found somebody that was also working on herself. But without that, like, yeah, dude, like I would have been stuck if I didn't get out and start working on myself and try to be a,

a lighter in SEMA. That's a big thing. Personal development. Like that's everyone in our audience is already about personal development. That's one thing. If you, if you've been listening to this podcast, you're in the realm of personal development. So you're on your, like we're all on our way, but that's the, that's one thing if you if you've been listening to this podcast you're in the realm of personal development so you're on your like we're all on our way but that's the that's the premise you know

what i mean and women who and who are into personal development man i dig those women too like that that i think that's a you and stephanie both you guys are in that you and andy both you guys have been in that i think that's one basic concept. If you find somebody and they're not doing things to develop as an individual over time, they're just like, this is the way it is. Run for the fucking hills. Damn. Take us on out of here, Andrew.

All righty. Thank you, everybody, for checking out today's episode. Please leave us your comments down below. I really want to hear what you guys have to say. We really appreciate that. And make sure you guys like today's episode and subscribe if you guys are not subscribed already and turn on all those bell notifications. And like I said, drop the comments because it not only does it help the episode, helps the podcast, but it also helps us understand where you guys are coming from because we just want to know where you guys come from. Make sure you follow the podcast at MarkValesPowerProject

on Instagram, at MBPowerProject on TikTok and Twitter. My Instagram and Twitter is at IamAndrewZ and Seema, where you at? Hope you guys enjoy this episode. Super pumped that we did this one. And Seema, ending on Instagram and YouTube, and SeemaYinYang on TikTok and Twitter. Mark? I forgot to mention that

it's oftentimes recommended to people that have mental health issues to not be in a relationship. But I would take that a step further. And I would say for someone who's trying to recover from particular incidences. But I'd also say just if you're not healthy in general and you're having bad relationships, get out of all of them if you can. Because I think you need a break. This is easier said than done. But you need to work on some personal development for a while.

You need to figure shit out. You might need to go get help. There could be a lot of different things that you need to go through in order to find the right person. But most likely, if you're not healthy, you're not going to find someone that is a good fit. Strength is never weakness. Weakness is never strength. Catch you guys later. Bye.