Mark Bell's Power Project - Pain is in Your Mind? Stop Holding Yourself Back - Sean Pastuch || MBPP Ep. 941

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

In episode 941, Sean Pastuch, Mark Bell, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza talk about how pain can linger in your mind thus prolonging how long you remain in pain. Follow Sean on IG: https://www.instagram.com/drseanpastuch/   New Power Project Website: https://powerproject.live Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the new Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw   Special perks for our listeners below! ➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements!   ➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!   ➢ https://mindbullet.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off Mind Bullet!   ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save up to 25% off your Build a Box   ➢ Better Fed Beef: https://betterfedbeef.com/pages/powerproject   ➢ https://hostagetape.com/powerproject Free shipping and free bedside tin!   ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!   ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 Pumps explained: https://youtu.be/qPG9JXjlhpM   ➢ https://www.vivobarefoot.com/us/powerproject to save 15% off Vivo Barefoot shoes!   ➢ https://vuoriclothing.com/powerproject to automatically save 20% off your first order at Vuori!   ➢ https://www.eightsleep.com/powerproject to automatically save $150 off the Pod Pro at 8 Sleep!   ➢ https://marekhealth.com Use code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off ALL LABS at Marek Health! Also check out the Power Project Panel: https://marekhealth.com/powerproject Use code POWERPROJECT for $101 off!   ➢ Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150   Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://www.PowerProject.live ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject   FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell   Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ https://www.breakthebar.com/learn-more ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en   Follow Andrew Zaragoza on all platforms ➢ https://direct.me/iamandrewz   #PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell #FitnessPodcast #markbellspowerproject

Pain is the negative emotional response to irritation. So what that means is the less clarity I have around why I'm feeling this thing, the more it hurts. We're on a walk one night and we're about to have a baby and she's like, hey, I don't want to be a single mom. And that was the moment that I was like, all right, you got to change some shit. Paying for mentors, that's unconventional. What was in your head that made you want to reach out for that?

That's what it was. It was intense pain. You reduced your workload, tripled your income. How did you change in that year? Do you think that people need to experience pain on a pretty harsh level to actually make change? So what's really going on there is they feel like they're going to lose some piece of their identity if they don't change the pain. And that hurts more than the back pain. you okay are we going let's get going yeah this is kind of interesting this is really interesting um let me know when you're going we're going all right so we were just talking about crawling you remember annual nathaniel

remember him the guy that was like i'm gonna be crawling every day yeah on all fours right there's this guy on social media his name's annual nathaniel um and he started crawling just like trying to build the habit of being on all fours a little bit he slowly integrated it like one day was just two minutes another day five minutes and now he's like he has these little implements in his home and he has his son doing it with him where he's just like hopping up on things like a little animal because he adapted himself to it and i was thinking like you were mentioning how none of us like to fucking be on all fours but we could build ourselves up to it oh yeah yeah yeah i don't know if i want to build myself the only time i want to do it is when my kids are like can we can you ride us like can we ride you like a horse to bed and i'm like

you're gonna go to bed yeah get on other than that I don't know yeah you've uh we were talking in the gym a lot about uh you know getting out of pain and what an interesting topic and there's like so much to try to uncover I think you know one of the things that's really like blurry about pain is that it's really hard to, for somebody to communicate on how much something hurts. And then, you know, I don't know about how it is for everybody in here, but a lot of times when I hear someone say something hurts, I'm like, man, they're just complaining. They're being a little bitchy about this thing, but they could legitimately be in a lot of pain to where this thing is annoying them. it's frustrating them so much

but you're trying to relate it to your pain you're like i had the same pain like three weeks ago and i'm like look at me i'm fine um but uh these pain can can be psychologically damaging it can be something that can kind of drag you down and it seems like you've been somebody who's been able to help a lot of people get out of pain, get through pain. What are some of the – how did you kind of get into this field in the first place? Okay. First thing is, you know, my background is in helping people get out of pain through the use of their own body. You know, no medications, no surgeries, none of that. My clinical background is in chiropractic and soft tissue.

And my exercise background is exercise physiology as a basically a degree exercise phys plus pre-med in University of Maryland into being a personal trainer since 2004. That's my background. And I was never, ever, ever, ever, ever the smartest kid in any class. You know, I was, I was the guy who like, what do I need to do to matriculate through to the next level? I'll do that. That's a pretty big word though. Matriculate.

You're ahead of the game with that one. I wasn't the smartest kid, but I matriculated myself. Yeah, that's right. I've gained intelligence over the years. Oh, I see. Yeah. But so, you know, it was always, I had this streak of rugged individualism in me and I never wanted to do things the way other people did them for a long time if for no other reason, personal ego.

I wanted to be the guy who could say that I did that. And frankly, that held me back for a really long time. It was having to invent the thing when the thing's already been invented. If I could just put my own recipe on this in a way that I feel aligned with, it's going to be good. So what we were talking about in the gym was mostly the idea of what pain is, because if we can change the language around how we describe something, we can have conversations that are different than what we're used to having. If I can share with you, I'll share with you how we describe pain with our clients. Yeah, that'd be great.

There are four terms that we want people to know, and then there are four rules associated with those four terms. They're very, very, very simple. We have to stop saying this hurts because it doesn't tell me anything. We've all been to the massage therapist and they've been rubbing on our back and we've been like, oh, that hurts. And they've said, you want me to stop? And you're like, no, no, no, it's the good pain. I need that. Well, you have some awareness there. So where does that go in the rest of your life? How do we make the decision when we're on a walk, running, lifting weights, whatever the case might

be? So the four terms are first is insult. Insult is the subconscious intake of any stimulus. Right now we feel nothing. We shift around a little bit because we felt something that something is conscious. Insult just became irritation. Irritation is the conscious intake of stimulus. We need irritation to drive any adaptation at all. Exercising is not comfortable. Personal development is not comfortable. We need that sensation to drive us in a different direction or in a better direction of the same thing. Pain is the negative emotional response to irritation.

I felt something. I did not like that. It's made worse by uncertainty. So what that means is the less clarity I have around why I'm feeling this thing that I don't like, the more it hurts. And that's where it comes to like three weeks ago, I felt that same thing you're feeling right now and I'm fine. Push through it. We talked about the pro football player walking down the sidewalk with a sedentary person. They both fall down at the same time. Pro football player gets up, wipes his knees off. He's like, we're good.

The sedentary person is like, I think I might need an ambulance. I have a little bit of blood dripping out of my knee. You have kids. I have kids. You know, kids get a paper cut. They think their finger's falling off because they don't have experience with it. Paper cuts suck. Paper cuts do suck. Injury

is a decision. It's the decision to stop. It's the decision that I don't want to do this thing anymore. So what we tell people all the time when they say like, I have a bad shoulder, I have an injured back. You don't have an injured back. You're standing. You're able to lay down. You're able to move. What is it that your back is unable to do? Well, when I lift heavy weights, my back hurts. Okay, well, then you have an injury around lifting heavy weights. Now let's get more specific. How do you lift them that makes your back hurt? Is it squatting them?

Is it single leg squatting them? Is it deadlifting them? Is it throwing them? Like, well, give me the real, let's get down to the granular. And what happens is you go from feeling like someone identifies that 100% of their back is messed up. I have a bad back. That's the identity that they own. And it becomes, oh, when I squat over 300 pounds, my back hurts in this way.

Oh, okay. So we have an injury around squatting a given weight for a given number of reps. That's not your back. That's a squatting injury. It's very measurable. We can change that. I'm like, oh shit, I don't have a bad back. No, you don't have a bad back. You're trying to do things other people don't do. Your back is telling you right now it doesn't want to do that. We can change that. And they're able to dissociate themselves from it. So what's next is the rules. Because next what happens is people say, well, how do I know if this is the good pain or the bad pain? Four very simple rules. If what you're experiencing is between a one and a four

on a scale of one to 10, right? We have to have some subjectivity, unfortunately, in here. You're probably okay. I'm not giving medical advice that if you're feeling it as a three, it doesn't mean anything. What I'm saying is generally speaking, if you're a one through a four on a scale of one to 10, you're probably okay. Next is if it's getting better as you get warmer from rep to rep over time, then rest is not likely what you need. If it's getting better as you get blood flow to it, you're probably doing something good for that structure. So keep going. Next is, let's say, for example, you feel some shoulder discomfort when you pick up a weight and you start pressing

it, right? But it stays between a one and a four. You put that weight down. Is it gone? Is the discomfort gone? Yes. Awesome. Highly unlikely you did any permanent or significant damage there. And then last is the 24 to 48 hour check-in. Do you have a focal discomfort where you felt it while we were training? So can you take your finger and say right there? If the answer to that is no, we're good. We're doing the things that are going to help you get your progress. What that allows people to do is understand the thing I've been avoiding because it was uncomfortable that people have told me is the thing I need to do. If I want to overcome this thing, I can now do, I now have permission to do that.

I thought before my body was telling me to stop, my body was telling me to keep going. do that. I thought before my body was telling me to stop, my body was telling me to keep going. I dig it. You know, I think you were mentioning that you helped a lot of like CrossFit people and not necessarily just to pin things on CrossFit, but people that are, people that were in CrossFit, people that are in CrossFit, they're very driven to like get their numbers better, to do these things in less time and so forth. just as a weightlifter is with a particular weight and as a powerlifter is with trying to hit certain weights in the platform um do you like i imagine you're helping people but it's probably kind of despite maybe your agreement with what they're doing and how they're doing it so how do you kind of unravel some of that because you know if you're just saying, Hey, look, you could be healthier.

There's a lot of other ways you could be healthy and you could be great, but you're, you're, I don't know what you're seeking in CrossFit bodybuilding or powerlifting, but it is, it is kind of damaging you. And I, and you and I have to work together now for the next six months to try to unravel this. Yeah. So the mistake I've made in the past because I'd like to start there is in imposing my values on other people, which means you don't need to bodybuild. You don't need to do CrossFit. You don't need to go for your jujitsu black belt.

You don't need to be sparring all the time. And you don't know that they don't – maybe they do need it. Maybe they really feel they do. Or maybe they're like, you're right, but I want it. So are you going to help me or what? And so for me, what I've been able to start to do is before we would take on any client, before I would work with anybody and I don't work with the clients anymore, I'm in a fortunate situation that smarter people than me with more experience and more passion for doing that work or doing it. And I get to lead them. than me with more experience and more passion for doing that work or doing it. And I get to lead them. But the first thing we're trying to figure out is what's, what does success look like for you and why, how did you decide that that's what success would look like when you're working

with a CrossFit games athlete, for example, it's getting back to the CrossFit games and being able to train without pain the whole time. Well, who am I to tell them that they shouldn't do that? Okay. We can help you do that why is that important to you and it seems like this stupid little question but the why is that important to you we like to be able to think of ourselves as a personal development company who disguises fitness and health care and so what happens is we're able to get that person to talk about things like I never felt like I was enough when I played sports growing up. I never, like, this is the thing that brings me adoration. This is the thing that gets

me attention. This is the thing that I'm using to build my business. Well, now we can have a different conversation around why we're doing it, how we need to do it and understand it's a means to a specific next step. So I guess the answer to your question is we will help people towards whatever it is that they're, that they're looking for in an informed way. It's taking the blind following of the thing I've done since I was 18 out of it. You know, I'm curious about this because like you work with a lot of trainers and I'm fairly certain you probably do pay attention to the way they put ideas forward on social media. Do you see any large problems with the ways that professionals or trainers or influencers are putting forward ideas on fitness and getting out of pain? Or ways that they could do things better?

Or ways that they could do things better. Again, that would – I'd have to get into their head to understand what they're trying to do and for who to answer that question in a specific way about each person. What I'll say is this. The audience that – when I think about, OK, that person is putting that thing out and the person I'm trying to help is buying that thing and that thing is failing them. And now they're feeling like they have a problem that can't be solved because this person said this works and there's all these testimonials. I used to look at that as a situation of this company is bullying this person. So I used to look at it. The way I look at it now is that thing probably works for somebody. And it might be where the person who it doesn't work for needs to start.

They might need to start with the thing that costs 35, 40, 50 bucks and find that this doesn't work for them so that they can go for the next thing. And then they go for the next, and they might need to spend thousands of dollars before they decide to spend whatever they need to spend to solve their problem. Right. Yeah. And so I used to look at that as like, oh, that's bullshit. Like you're telling people to do this thing and this thing, it works for somebody, but it doesn't work for everybody. Now where I'm at is I understand that I just need to do a better job speaking to how I believe it could best be done for the specific person I'm speaking to and continuously learn and find better ways to

resonate with them and their problems are solved. It sounds like you do a really good job of asking questions. When we went on a walk with my brother, he was talking about some of his pain and then you hit him with a question where it just got him to talk a lot, which he's good at anyway. But it got him to talk a lot and it got him to like share information with you. Does that – that must be something that is a strategy I would imagine that helps you to dissect how you're going to proceed with somebody. It was a strategy. Now it's how I genuinely carry myself all the time. It was – I had to learn, let me back up. What I like to tell people is that you want to find someone who's going to ask you better

questions because you already have the answer. You don't need people to tell you what to do. You need people to ask you questions so that you can decide what to do, because if they tell you what to do, you'll do it until it stops working or until it feels uncomfortable or whatever the case might be, and then move on. And I used to speak to people in a very preachy way. Like you need to do this, you need to do that, you need to do this. What I learned, and it started as an intentional practice because I wasn't good at it, was just keep asking questions and it's not why seven times.

It's you said this, what does that mean? What did you, it's, it's asking people to really come to a common language so that we're talking about the same thing. And what I learned that from the mentor who I'm working with right now in a, in a tactical way, if you will, where it was, we would have conversations and it would be, what do you mean when you say that? Well, when I say what, when you say active, what do you mean by active? I don't know. I mean, like someone who's active, what do you mean? Well, I can't, and he would say, I can't help you with that if I don't understand what that word means to you. There's a huge spectrum of active. And so now I ask questions to find real commonality and language.

And then when I want to ask a difficult question, like the ones I was asking your brother, I ask permission before I do it. And I find that I'm able to get to a much more meaningful place much more quickly by doing that than by sharing what I think someone else should do. that than by sharing what I think someone else should do. This makes me really curious because you mentioned that you guys kind of weave in a lot of personal development with the people that you work with, right? So how do you guys work and help somebody who, let's say maybe they are in pain or they're in some sort of pain. But let's just say that the way they look at things is just globally pessimistic. Everything comes from things at a point of negativity and then it needs to be turned positive. How do you help somebody rectify that? Because as you mentioned, language is important.

But when that is a way that you think all the time, not just about one specific thing. It's going to affect your progress. Yeah. So the, the answer to that question is it might seem like a cop-out, but generally speaking, that person isn't coming to us. They're not coming to us because I think it's obvious in our content that we don't know how to help you. You have to decide that you have a problem that you want to solve, that you're prepared to be pressed on, and then we can help you. So when people are generally pessimistic about things, playing the victim mindset, if you will, We're making a referral there. You know, the way that we like to think of ourselves is that we're the great connector, right? Fortunately or unfortunately,

depending on how you look at it, we take about 50% of the people now who come to us and ask to work with us and refer them to somebody else because we're not the right fit for them in that moment. You know, they might think they need this, but what they really need is to talk to somebody about their mental health. What they really need is to talk to somebody about their relationship with their spouse. What they really need is to talk to somebody about how they feel about money. What they really need is a doctor.

So we like to think of ourselves as world-class connectors. And what that means is that when we believe we're the best people to help you, we're going to push you really hard to decide to do that with us because we've already explored our network of people we can make a referral to, and we don't have someone else who'd be better for you. What led you to some of these beliefs, you know, with being open to asking questions? Were you like when you were younger, were you like shouting out answers to people and kind of trying to dictate how they did things? Yeah, I was the captain of all the teams I played on and I was the captain because I was the I was the loud guy.

I wasn't I was pretty good, but I wasn't the captain because I was the best athlete. I wasn't the, I was pretty good, but I wasn't the captain because I was the best athlete. I was the captain because I would be like, let's go bring it in. You need to do this. You need to do that. I'm going to do this. Let's go. That was my personality. And so I carried that into business. I carried that into adult life and I wasn't successful. It was, it was the first time in my life where I couldn't outwork my problems. I found myself – I was working 17-hour days Monday through Friday, 12 to 15 on Saturdays. And then I was spending all day Sunday kind of giving myself grief for not getting anything done. I owned a clinic, a gym, and an event company.

So you – there was some success there, but maybe not your definition of success. Well, not financial. I was doing about, I was netting about $30,000 a year personally on all of those hours. So when you break it down, I could have just, you know, put fries into the thing at McDonald's and been better paid. Uh, and it took two really difficult things happening, both with my wife. Uh, we're on a walk one night and we're having, we're about to have baby. And she's like, Hey, I don't want to be a single mom. And I was like, well, that, that hits. Right. So what she was referring to is I'm, I'm never around. And the next thing that happened is I, and that like, that got me to start, I was in pre

contemplation mode at that phase. I wasn't ready to make any real big changes. I was like, I get it. I'll push a little harder to be productive. I owned an event company that the last time we ran it, I wasn't a business person. We had no working capital in the account. We thought it was going to do great. And it lost $26,000 the last time we ran it. My wife was a teacher. She made all of the money in our family. She had saved $15,000 that we were going to build upon to buy a house one day. And I had to come home and tell her I lost $13,000 of our $15,000. And I walked into the kitchen crying.

I'm not a big crier. I walked into the kitchen crying. I was like, big crier. I walked into the kitchen crying. I was like, is she going to leave me? Is she going to think less of me? It was totally emasculating in my own head until I had the conversation. And she hugged me and she's like, hey, you're my penny stock. It's okay. I told her when we first got together, I'm like, I'll be your penny stock.

Invest in me now. Invest in me now. And that was the moment that I was like, all right, you got to change some shit. So I got out of the event. So I'm not going to be in this event anymore. Done with it. It's good for the ego, bad for the, bad for the psyche and certainly not for the bank account. And then I went to the gym and I said, I'm not coaching classes anymore. Not coaching 5 a.m. I'm not coaching 8 p.m. I'm going to be home by this time. Hired people to run all of those positions, even though I didn't really have the money

to do so. I hired him. I moved some things around in the business, hired a mentor and that mentor the first day he's like, he was the third mentor I ever hired. And the first one who really told me the truth about what wasn't working. And he was like, look, if you want to be more successful, you need to become a better person. And I said to him, what are you talking about? Like, I work endless hours for other people.

I treat everybody exactly how they would want to be treated or how I'd want to be treated. And he goes, you're right, you do. And I respect that about you. It's why I decided to work with you. Um, the problem is you're a fucking psychopath and people don't want to be treated like a fucking psychopath. So,

so how am I supposed to treat people? You're like, what? Wait, what? You're like, people don't want to work out all day and be super regimented. They don't want to just be told what they suck at all the time.

You know? Oh, so that's what you were doing. Like you were drill sergeant. Like at that point, it was, I can work 80 hour weeks. Why are you working? Oh,

it was, it was, I can just follow me. Like there was a time in my company where I was like, I've learned this lesson and gotten better and better and better where we weren't making sales the way I wanted to. I'm like, watch me do it. And then I did it and I thought they'd be like, let's go.

And everybody was like, cool, man. I just feel shittier about myself now. So I learned how to start to treat people the way that they wanted to be treated. A personal trainer with way too much energy. Dude. Okay, I do have a question. I don't want you to lose your train of thought about this. No, it's fine.

But like that example right there, I think back to like when I worked in sales at a gym and I did see one of my managers do that. Do you think that there's an – like were you thinking they could learn from this if they reframed what they were looking at? Because that's a thing too there, right? But were you just really shitty or something?

Because I feel like they could have learned from that. I didn't know how to teach people though. So yes, they could have learned from that. And our team now, I would like to believe that they do. Okay. The, the thing is though, now I would never tell somebody what they need to do. I would have conversations with people around how they think what they're doing is going. And then a lot, like the thing is this in business and in life, when people aren't doing the thing well, they know they're not doing the thing well. And they're not happy about it.

So the worst thing that I can do is walk in and be like, hey, you're really shitting the bed, Seema. It would be great if you could suck a little bit less. That's not ideal. I feel so motivated. I'm so happy. This is my leader. But if you come in and you offer help, well, that's a totally different way to treat the same person to get the different result. So for me, it's been constantly having mentors.

It's been constantly having clients who will come to me and give me feedback and genuinely be listening for what are they saying. will come to me and give me feedback and genuinely be listening for what are they saying you know there was a time when i was knocking a certain type of business model and a client of ours who was running it because they had been taught it by a different mentor was like hey man you're not exactly telling me what to do you're kind of just bullying me right now making me feel like shit about what i'm doing maybe talk about what i should do that was a light bulb moment um so yeah it's it's just always believing that there's a like right now i want to look at this podcast in five years and be like what the fuck were you talking about like that was so bad but i want to feel really good about when i leave today you mentioned uh paying for mentors that's's unconventional in some ways.

I know people will pay to go to like a seminar. They'll pay to do this and do that. And I know nowadays it's more popular to pay for a mentor. What was in your head that made you want to reach out for that? What made you think that that would be something that would be helpful? And what would be encouraging for someone else to maybe do so? Intense pain. That's what it was.

It was intense pain around having this, you know, I've heard you talk about it and I love it. You had a performance enhancement since you were a kid, which is a family who loved you unconditionally. I had the same one. So, I have this paradox of intense belief in self and evidence that I was wrong. Like, intense belief that I can do something meaningful and evidence that that's not true. And I refused to believe the evidence. And so, I decided to look for whatever needed to be done for me to get where I wanted to be. And that led me to mentors. And the interesting thing about mentors, you may have some of these similar experiences.

I will listen to anything that my parents tell me to do as long as it's five years later and someone else is saying it. So that's where that started. You also mentioned that two of the mentors you had in the beginning, your third mentor was one that told you the things that would actually be in your benefit. So I'm kind of curious, when you look back at it, what were the red flags from those initial two mentors? Were there things that were good but a lot that was bad?

There weren't any. The reason they didn't work is I hired those two people to learn how to make more money. And they both came in and taught me how to make more money. And they both came in and taught me all the things that worked for them. And that worked for all their other clients. And then they didn't work for me. And it wasn't because I wasn't doing them. I was, I was doing the shit out of them and it wasn't working. Why isn't this working? Uh,

the mentor who finally told me the truth is the one who said, it's you, man. It's not the things you do. It's you. It's how you show up. It's how you treat people. It's how people talk about you. It's how you talk about yourself. It's the dissonance between who you think you are and who other people think you are and you not being curious about why that gap exists. And so once I started to understand, okay, my responsibility is to show up the way that I believe I'm showing up, which is not what's happening. So I got to learn, what do I need to do to show up the way that I believe I'm showing up, which is not what's happening. So I got to learn, what do I need to do to show up that way? This guy taught me nothing

about business, nothing. It was all about me, how to become a better version of me. And that year, I reduced my workload by about 50% and tripled my income. What were know you mentioned how you were before but you reduced your workload tripled your income how did you change in that year yeah so i started a two-year long apology tour so it was an apology tour because i had all this weight of all the people who i felt like had given me you know the fuck yous if you of all the people who I felt like had given me the fuck yous, if you will. All the people who had not been there for me when I thought that they should be. All the people who didn't trust me or didn't give me a chance. I was always just looking at all these people who weren't in my corner.

Instead of asking, do you want those people in your corner? And why weren't they there anyway? So I started my two-year-long apology tour knowing the last apology I needed to make would be to a business partner who was a good friend of mine who I split with in a very negative way, right? I couldn't think of anything that I did that would have led to our breakdown of our relationship. But I was, I was forcing myself to believe it's not about me.

Right. And I have responsibility in it. So what was the responsibility? I never pinpointed it, but what I was able to do was finally, after two years, apologize to him for not being the friend that I know he needed during the time period when we broke down, not being the business partner that he needed because I didn't understand how to do it when things broke down. I just apologized for that. And I started, the first apology I made was to my wife. I didn't used to wear a wedding ring. I was like, I'm lifting weights all day. I'm treating patients with my hands. It's a pain in the ass. I take it off. I put it on, take it off. I put it on. I tried the silicone one. I just play with it all day. I don't need to wear a wedding ring. You know, I love you. You know, I'm proud. Like it's

all good. Right? She's like, yeah, you don't need to wear a wedding ring, babe. And he came home and I was like, hey, I apologize. I've been making a selfish decision to not wear a wedding ring since we got married because it's annoying for me. But I understand that for you, it says I'm proud to be your husband. I'm taken. I'm excited about this. And so I bought a new wedding ring today and I'm never going to take it off. That was the first apology. Fucking hard.

Look, it sounds like this woo-woo bullshit. You know, and like I'm no Zen monk. Do not get it confused. I have my moments all the time where my actions have to be checked by myself or by somebody else still. But it's the intention of always doing the right thing. When you gave those apologies, did anyone not care? Most. Not caring is the wrong way to describe it. They would be like, yeah, man, cool.

I wasn't upset about that. the wrong way to describe it they would be like yeah man cool like i wasn't upset about that and and my thing was i didn't think that you were upset about it but i wanted you to know that i now realize i did it wrong i recognize yeah yeah it's a good good way of doing things do you think that uh people need to experience pain on a pretty harsh level to actually make change? I think that they, our job, I think, what you guys do really well on the show and what I'd like to believe that we do well is give people the ability to experience the pain before they actually go through it. And so it's helping somebody look down the road six months, six years, 10 years. What will my life be like if I keep doing the same things I'm doing right now? That's painful to think about.

So what changes do I want to make now? I'd like to believe that we can all do that without having to experience all of that difficulty. I don't know if it's possible, but that's, that's my intention. Like when somebody, you know, says they have, uh, I've run into so many people, you know, so many friends and stuff like that, that family friends and like my back hurts, it hurts, you know, I'm like, my gym's free, West Sacramento, like 855 Riverside Parkway. Come on in. I'll, you know, help you out. I got a bunch of tools there that make it a lot easier for me to help you than me just helping you at this party that we're at or whatever it is.

And, uh, they'll tell me, they'll go on and on like, Oh yeah, this is hurt for four years, you know, and my swimming performance is down and I would really love to be able to do

ABC and we, you know, and I'm just thinking, okay, you already said your bit about like they can come to the gym and they can get help if they want to probably just leave it there. Cause this could be a waste of time because a lot of times people don't follow through. So yeah, kind of the question is like, does that person need to be painted into a corner more for it to matter enough for them to seek help? Or if I do run into somebody or somebody else runs into somebody that is seeking help with weight loss or any other thing, how would you go about that and have it maybe be something that they're more open to that they don't just never show up to the gym. Yeah. So there's a few ways to think about this.

The first thing is a confession. I have a really hard time at parties in general because I'm not interested in the small talk. I'm not interested in how the Mets – I don't know how the Mets are doing right now. I used to be a crazy Mets fan. No idea. No idea.

I don't know who the Jets drafted. I think the draft happened, right? That was stuff I used to know like crazy. How are they drafting that dude? He's got slow feet, right? Like I know anything. So I struggle at parties because when people will say stuff like that to me, I'll ask them, well, why is it important for you to get rid of that back pain? Because it's never the pain. They were in pain for four years and decided not to do

anything about it. So what's really going on there is they feel like they're going to lose some piece of their identity if they don't change the pain. And that hurts more than the back pain. So now they're like, what do I got to do to maintain who I say I am? That's a hard conversation to have at a party. The way that that extends, if someone came to me at a party like that, is I would say, look, I would really like to help you. Would you be open to a conversation this week where I can give all of my focus and attention to you and what you're going through instead of trying to talk to you while my kids are in a pool

and I'm half focused and things of that nature. Usually people say, it's not that big of a deal. I'm like, you know, okay, okay, then let's not. They want to get themselves off the hook. Yep. And when they say yes, I will always do what I say I'm going to do.

I will follow through. I will finish the job and it will either be helping them become a client of ours or making the referral to them elsewhere. So I think the pain doesn't have to be the thing. It's finding what the actual pain is right now. I'll give you a simple high-level example. Think about corporate wellness. Are you familiar with corporate wellness at all? A little bit.

Okay, think of it this way. Most corporate wellness is an app or like accesses to these gyms and these nutrition supplements and these coaches and all this great stuff. The bottom 20%, the least healthy people in your company, the bottom 20% cost 80% or more of the healthcare cost. Those people don't take you up on your corporate wellness hat. Why not? Why don't the people who need it the most take you up on it? To compound that, HR can't go into the, you know, to the person in accounting who's 450 pounds and say, it seems that you might be unhealthy.

Do you feel like you want to get healthy? They can't have that conversation. Everyone has to pretend everybody is the same. Yeah, it's the same guy who's not going to look up the seminars that you pay for that he can go online. Sure. He's behind in that area. He doesn't feel good about it.

He doesn't want to participate. But so the way I look at it is if we think of all these things they can do is like a Plinko board. You know the game Plinko? Yeah. Like those discs that come down and they all have the bottom yes fitness and nutrition is the bottom of the plinko board people treat it as the top it's not the top maybe that person right now is dealing with financial stress so they're working two jobs they're trying to get that raise. They go home at night. Their significant other is likely very similar to them dealing with the same issues. They numb

themselves with cookies, cake, and Netflix because that's the only time that they can stop thinking about their problems. And we're going to them and saying, you should work out and eat better. They're like, fuck you. When? When? So if you can help that person with their finances, and I'm not a financial coach. This is why we have to have good partners. If I can help that person with their finances, they can stop being so stressed about their finances. Now they might say, what do I do next? Well, how do you and your wife communicate?

You guys doing really well? You want help with that? Now we can get them talking better. Now we can say, okay, well, you're a different person. What do you want to do with some of this free time? What do you want to, and they, somebody who cares about themselves will start to ask, how do I take better care of myself? It might be a three year path before they lift a single weight, but they start the fitness journey wherever they are. So I think that we need to meet people wherever their pain is and stop thinking of us as the only solution. Look into my eyes. Now I know that you want to be looking better.

You want to be going, walking the streets, being like, damn, I look and feel good because then everyone's going to be looking at you. That's why we've partnered with the Ori clothing. So you can stop wearing your ripped up tank and your long shorts and step your athleisure game up.

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And you'll automatically receive 20% off your order. Links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes. What are some of the actual tactics in the gym? Like are you a fan of myofascial release? I know you're going to see Kelly Sturette, so I'm assuming you're a fan of a lot of the stuff that he does. We had Jill Miller on the show yesterday. Are you kind of agnostic? Are you a fan of like a lot of different methods and techniques to assist

people? Yeah. I think all of it works. Kelly doesn't get where Kelly is. If everything Kelly talks about is BS, right. I'm Ben Patrick doesn't get where he is. If everything he talks about is BS.

We don't, I don't get where we are. If everything I talk about is BS, everything that the most, the thing that works more than anything else is consistency doing the, whatever the thing is long enough. The one, but I will throw in there is it. I believe it starts with mindset. I believe the gym is the symptom. It's the manifestation of who you believe that you are and who you're prepared to defend that you are, that comes out in the gym, right? So for me, I used to, I wanted to be jacked. I wanted to be ripped. I wanted to be shredded. I'm like, that's, that's how I'm going to, it's just who I am now.

I'd still like to be a little more jacked. I'd like to be a little bit more ripped, but I, I prefer the life I've chosen over that. And it is what it is. So what happens in the gym? Be consistent. That's most important. Kind of, I want to go real quick to what you were mentioning about like that individual who works in the company who has a lot of stuff they're dealing with. Does your, does active, active life, do you guys have different coaches to help with that? Something like if a person is struggling with finances,

do you have someone on your team that like is a development coach that can help them learn how to budget? Or is that like you outsource those? Outsource. Okay. Outsource. One of my ambitions is to have all of it, but we don't have the budget. We don't have the infrastructure.

It would be irresponsible of me to try to bring all of that in-house right now because people aren't coming to us for financial support. We're not a corporate wellness company yet. So we would be for the right client and we would build the team. All the people we refer to just become the team. Now we service this company and we can build a team underneath the team. All of that's easy to do. But our focus is getting people to wherever they need to be, whether we make money on it or not. Gotcha. And on kind of what you mentioned, it's like maybe that person doesn't touch fitness until three years later. It does make me, I wonder, everybody's a specific person we're talking about this hypothetical individual

but wouldn't some type of using the body wouldn't that help them move in that direction a bit but like wouldn't we want to maybe weave that in sooner potentially I know we could it's hypothetical but you get what I'm saying yeah for the right person the right person yeah you know it's it's um we recently set up a i'll give you an example we recently set up a brick and mortar space in long beach where i live to to basically prove the concept that we're talking about because the people we work with uh generally speaking are the ones who feel like the fitness industry no longer has a path for me. I don't need to go to a physical therapist. I don't need a mental therapist. I just like, I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do now. That's our perfect client. They've figured out

that like, I don't know why I do this anymore. So when we set up our brick and mortar, I interviewed over a hundred people in our town about, do you go to the gym? And if they said yes, they don't count on my interview. That's the end of the interview. No. Have you? Yes. Great. So now I have, you've either, you've been to the gym and you stopped or you never went. Why don't you go? The number one answer was I'm overwhelmed by where I'm supposed to be when I'm there. I don't want to get in other people's way. Think about that. I imagine no one in this room has ever had that thought, walking into a gym.

I'm afraid of getting in somebody's way. So from having those interviews, we set up our space to create a path for people that they will understand where they should be if they want to be out of everybody's way. If you're on this floor or under this light, you are always in the right place if you're not training. If you're training under that space, you're in the wrong spot. So the reason I bring that up is we don't know why people aren't being more physically active yet. And it might take a month, a week, a day, or three years to get them to start being physically active. Once we understand why they're not, we can start to break down that belief set and build a new one in place that allows them to start being physically active. So yes, my answer to your long answer to your short question is yes, it'd be great to weave it in as fast as possible.

And as fast as possible is when they can take it and make it theirs. What about, what about cheating a little bit and getting them a standup desk and recommending like a walk and cheating and trying, right? It is trying to cheat a little bit where you're throwing in a little exercise without them maybe even thinking about it too walk. Yeah, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying, right? Yeah, just trying to cheat a little bit where you're throwing in a little exercise without them maybe even thinking about it too much.

Yeah, you know, the thing is this. With the client we're talking about right now, they're not with us yet. We're talking about the person who we've referred out to a mental health expert, to a relationship expert. We've made the referral. That person's going to come back to us when they're ready for

that kind of stuff. So we're not, to be clear, we're not working with the person. Active life does not take on the client who is not ready to be physically active today. We don't have the tools to do it. When they come to us, they're already in the mindset of, I want to be more physically active. Got it. I'm curious about this. How do you, and I don't know if you guys have long conversations with people about this, but we just had an episode where we were talking about relationship stuff and we brought up the idea of therapy. And sometimes when people hear that idea, there's just a knee jerk reaction to, I don't have your problem and I don't need help like that. How do you help somebody become open to that?

First of all, the answer to your question is we do have very long conversations with people. So before we bring someone on as a client, we probably talk to them for two to three hours over the course of one to three meetings. I would never pitch somebody therapy. What I would say is, hey, I'm hearing what you're talking about. I'm hearing you say a bunch of stuff that I don't think that we'd be really great to help you with. But I've also heard a lot of people who we've, we've talked to say similar things and I've been able to connect them with a friend of mine who does a great job helping them work through it.

Would you be interested in connecting with that friend of mine? would you be interested in connecting with that friend of mine? Because it removes the stigma of therapy and weakness. And now if they say, what does that person do? I say, well, exactly what I just described. They're going to help you work through that stuff you're talking about and change it. You're tricking me. Yeah, sure.

All right. I mean, good luck getting a really masculine dude to a therapist. But I have a friend who has helped me and so many other people with that. He's a consultant. He's a really good dude. Would you want to talk to him? Sure. When it comes to, you know, you're mentioning the mental side being a huge part of it. But there is a physical side to a lot of this. At least it appears that way. With like movement, is that something that you guys teach?

Do you guys teach specifics on how people should move? Yeah. Yes. So the physical is huge. I dive into the mental because what I want us to be able to do is help people become the people who never would have needed us in the first place. That's going to require some movement. Can you explain that for a second? the exercise and the identity to no longer need us. In order for that to happen, you, you have to be impervious to the next person's ad, right? Like, Oh, I don't need that. Cause I understand this about myself. I don't need that. Cause I understand this about me. I want

that. Cause I, I understand this about myself. It's, it's all about knowing who you are well enough to make intentional decisions about what you do with your time, your money, and your attention. So we want to help a person become that person. So the movement is imperative. It's a huge part of what we do. And it's frankly where most of our marketing goes because people aren't coming to us because they're like, hey, I really want a personal development coach.

It's not what happens. No one's at that place in what they're looking for and associating with the gym or with exercise. So we talk about exercise all the time. We definitely help people move better. We definitely help people move without pain. We definitely help people better get to their goals more quickly. We definitely help people move without pain. We definitely help people better get to their goals more quickly.

And along that line, we are intentionally providing them with education that is both science and soft skills about themselves so that they can have the knowledge about the subject and the awareness about themselves to make decisions going forward. Got anything over there, Andrew? Yeah, I did actually. I'm curious to learn more about how you were saying you actually offloaded some of your work and then ended up increasing your income. How did you, I guess, prioritize what you wanted to let go? As being somebody who's kind of pretty revved up quite a bit, I would imagine you probably didn't want to give up, you know, almost anything because you know that you could probably do it better than most.

So how were you able to let go of some things? Yeah, so that was a strongly held belief that's been proven wrong over and over and over and over again, that I can do it better than somebody else. I just started giving away the work that felt heavy. You know, so it was like, okay, well, when I think about this work, am I like, let's go? I'm like, anything that felt, I gave to somebody else.

And once I started giving that stuff to somebody else, it became easier to give away more stuff. Because I was like, well, I do like doing that, but would I wake up at 5 a.m. to do that? No, no. So let me give that to somebody else too. And it was just stripping away my own personal importance in all of those things that led to me being like, damn, you're just so much better at this than me. And you do it faster.

This is great. And that ultimately led me to firing myself from the gym altogether in the clinic altogether my partner was better at seeing patients and i didn't want to coach in the gym i wasn't inspired by crossfit anymore so i fired myself from all of it and went into what we're doing at active life now full-time and you had some crossfit gyms for a while and uh you were mentioning that a couple years back that you were pretty, your list of clients were pretty full of a lot of CrossFitters that you were helping.

CrossFitters, Olympians, professional baseball players. Yeah, you have a, was it gold medalist? Silver. Silver, yeah, unbelievable. Yeah, and we didn't speak the same language. That was fun. Yeah, that's gotta be challenging, right? How were you able to help this silver medalist in the Olympics and somebody like Brooke Ence where their identity is really attached to the thing that they're doing?

By helping them do it better. You know, my job is not to tell an Olympic weightlifter in the Olympics, hey, this might not be good for your joint health. Here's how you're going to do a snatch. Right, right. Hey, this might not be good for your joint health. Here's how you're going to do a snatch. Right, right. No, it was – he would basically point at his shoulder and say it hurts when I do this, when I do this, when I do this.

So it was just – I wasn't able to have the personal development connection with him that I have with people who speak English. But we were able to get him out of pain through exercises, through improving his sleep, through simple things like that. With someone like Brooke Enns, she wanted to be able to train CrossFit without pain. I can help you with that. That's something very simple. I had a ton of social proof, a ton of social proof. Almost 10,000 people when she started working with us had already demonstrated that this works for them. Some of her best friends were my clients.

And it was like, dude, like we can – this is not going to be a difficult thing. The hardest thing is going to be you making the difficult decisions, not to do that thing in your training today because you think you're supposed to and do this instead. supposed to and do this instead. So yeah. What do you think separated you out from some other people? Cause I'd imagine that someone like Brooke Anson and some of these other high end people that have, you know, really means a lot to them to be able to do their sport. You know, I'm sure they probably have gone to some other people and maybe just didn't have the same success. What do you think made your techniques different?

I think I owe a lot of, a lot of that to people like Michael Cashew and Matt Bruce for making introductions for me to athletes who trusted them. So I was able to leapfrog off of the trust that these guys had in the athletes that they were working with. That's where, that's where we really started to kind of take off. So it's helpful when the person that they're like, this is the guy says, this is the guy. And I'm like, that's me, right? That makes things fairly simple. And then it was the weight of delivering for them and making sure like, okay, I'm going to be the guy. And so that was part of my, my madness was like like I'm always available for that phone call, always available for that text.

Don't do that, right, just as a general rule. Teaching people boundaries is more valuable than having none. But that was how I started to get their trust. And then it was this person had the success. This person had the success. This person had the success. And they got it in three different ways. I think it's highly likely that we can do this.

And there have been some difficult conversations with some high-profile clients where I was like, look, if this isn't super important that you do this, I would love you to tell the world how great we are, but I don't want them to know we're working together when you break something, so let's not do this anymore. This, I want to know about this because you've worked with a lot of high level athletes and for all the high level athletes who'd be able to get to the top or close to the top of what they do. There's hundreds, if not thousands who have broken their bodies down because they've thought they need to do certain things to get

to the top. They thought they needed, oh, I'm feeling this. This is just part of the game, right? Do you think and actually, how do you help athletes not keep bulldozing themselves because they feel that's what they need to do to reach the top? what they need to do to reach the top. With the athlete, it's, it's actually with the athlete, it's extremely important to develop a strong interpersonal relationship where they trust you. Like I've had athletes struggling with their marriage, struggling with their sense of self, fly out to stay at my house just to sit at the kitchen table and talk about it. That's not exercise. I believe in

order to get someone who's a high performer to take any of your advice, you have to have that first. And you develop some of that by, I want this person to do 100% of these things. Today, he's ready to do 40% of them. Okay, let's do 40% of them. Let me share with him. This is the other 60% that I'm going to earn your trust and have you start to do. And right now these results are going to come a little bit slower, but I'm going to meet you where you are. So that's how I've been able to get elite athletes to change their behavior is by saying, I get it. You don't want to do all of this stuff. Would you do this? Yes. Then just do that. And let's see where that gets you. And then when that gets them somewhere, I'm like, okay, are you ready to try the next thing? Yeah, I'll try the next thing. Okay. How did that work? That thing worked really well too. Is it possible that all

the things I'm suggesting would work similarly? And eventually they're on board. And the other thing is with the new lead athlete, the mistake that I've seen a lot of people make is creating a wedge between themselves, like me, and their coach. Because I'm not their coach. I'm not teaching you to pull heavy weights off the floor. I'm not teaching you to run faster.

You got coaches for that. It has to be collaborative. Your coach has to endorse my work. Do you know what your testosterone levels are at? How about your estrogen? How about your prolactin? How about your cholesterol? If the answer is, I don't know what they're at. Well, we've been talking about blood work for a long time now. That's why we've partnered with Merrick Health, a company owned by Derek from More Plates, More Dates. Now with Merrick, you can get yourself something called the Power Project Panel, which will give you 26 different labs that will help you understand what's going on underneath the hood. After that, you'll be able to be partnered with one of their patient care coordinators, which will give you interventions that range from lifestyle supplements to potential hormonal health treatments that can help move you in the right direction. But it all starts with knowing on what's going on down here.

So get your blood work done. And, Andrew, how can they get it? Yes, we have two options for you guys. help move you in the right direction, but it all starts with knowing on what's going on down here. So get your blood work done. And Andrew, how can they get it? Yes, we have two options for you guys. Head over to MerrickHealth.com slash PowerProject. That's M-A-R-R-E-K Health.com slash PowerProject. There you guys will see the PowerProject panel that Nsema was just talking about. And at checkout, enter promo code PowerProject to save $101 off of that panel. Now, if you want to custom select your own panel, you guys can use promo code PowerProject10 to save 10% off all labs. Again, that's at MerrickHealth.com slash PowerProject. Links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes. Did you start to recognize some of these things when you were a personal trainer? You said that you, when we're on our walk, you said that a lot of the people that you would train

were kind of the outcasts, like the people that maybe other people didn't want to train. When you started to get in conversation with these people, did you recognize that not only was their body disoriented from trying to organize life, but their brain was maybe a little scrambled as you went in multiple questions deep with them. No, I was, I was young and dumb when I was doing that kind of training and I was just getting really good at training. I was getting really good at being a technician. I could change an angle a little bit and change everything about the way that that exercise was working. I could, that was what I was focused on getting really good at. I recently

interviewed my first personal training client ever, or not my first, but one of my first. And he reminded me that when I, when he came to me, he was like 50 pounds overweight, didn't have an exercise background. And I had him doing power, hang power cleans on like his first day and his glasses would fog up. And I was like, we're good, bro. Let's go. Let's get this. So no, I did not develop that in that environment at all. I developed that after I learned about myself. Right. Yeah. I found it to be really interesting when you start to get in conversation with somebody about, they want to lose a certain amount of weight, you know, they're I'm here

cause I want to lose weight. And then you start asking. Sometimes it's not – sometimes it's right on the surface but you go like two, three questions deep and next thing you know, they're crying. And you're like, oh shit. This is a really deep – somebody not conforming and not doing what they're supposed to do even when they know that it's in their best interest is like way more complicated than them just sticking to this thing that's on a piece of paper. Yeah. And I think that what you just described is really, really, really important to discuss. I've gotten people to the place of crying and then had no idea what to do. And then I've, in that case, done more damage perhaps than I intended. You know, I used to tell a story as a success

story that when I look back on it, it wasn't. I had a woman walk into my clinic who was like, I need to get out of back pain. Okay. Why? Well, because my back hurts when I exercise. Why is that important? I want to lose 40 pounds or 20 pounds, whatever it was. Okay. Why? Well, because when I go to the beach, I wear a t-shirt and my daughter is getting old enough that she's going to stop believing me when I say I'm cold when it's 90 degrees outside. And then she starts breaking down crying. And I was like, okay, I can work with that. And she got all the results that she wanted, but I didn't know what to do with work with that. And she got all the results that she wanted. But I didn't know what to do with her in that moment.

So for all I know, she left the clinic that day and was totally fragile, felt like she had just opened herself up to somebody, and the answer was lunges, right? Like whatever it was. And so now if someone gets to that place, I've learned over the years much better how to have that conversation with them and meet them where they are and have them feel a sense of safety and inspiration instead of just like if they're crying, they're buying, which is the old way. Which is probably good to maybe talk them down a little bit and maybe make their problem not seem like such a huge hurdle maybe. The way I would do it is by thanking them for sharing that with me, by asking them how they feel now, by asking them if there's anything else. Is there anything else now that you've told me that and it's safe with me and I appreciate that. Is there anything else that you'd like to share? And then just giving them time. Like there's a lot of just sitting there and saying, thank you. What do you know? What do you want to do with that? Sometimes when I feel compelled to, I will, I will share back just so that they understand, like, I'm like I'm right here with you. That happened

two weeks ago. I had a bunch of clients. We took them to Montreal. The idea was how do we do a better job for you? You four are doing different levels of financial success and adoption of what we're teaching you. How do we get each of you to adopt at the rate that this person's adopting at? Where are we missing for you? So that conversation starts off with a conversation around, do you have the same values that we do? Or are we asking you to do things that feel out of alignment with your values? Oh, it's totally in alignment. Great. Then what are you scared of? And that's when shit starts to get real. I'm scared of this, I'm scared of that. Where did that fear come from? I realized I need to share or these guys will feel like I'm just taking.

Right. So I shared with them that I have this, I've led from a place of scarcity that I didn't even realize until fairly recently, which is I raised the money to open my first gym and my second gym lost the first one in a hurricane, right? Business partner left the second one.

Couldn't pay any of my investors back before I left. I stayed in that business a year and a half longer than I should have because I felt the guilt of having taken investment money and not paid it back. So I have that scar on me. I intended to pay them back still, plus the interest they would have made if they put in the S&P 500. But there's that. My wife is retired. Super proud of that. She lives an amazing life. She loves what she's doing right now, raising our kids, being present all the time. I love seeing her that happy. I have 31 employees now. I'm responsible to them. We have clients from around the world and I've been playing defense, trying to keep what we have instead of growing what we can give. And it ended up with two weeks ago, I had a dream.

My daughter, who's eight years old, was being interviewed. She's like in her 50s during this interview. And the interviewer says to her, why do you push so hard? You have everything you've ever wanted. Why are you pushing so hard still? And she's like, well, I watched my dad work really hard when i was growing up and he never made it i woke me up didn't sleep for like three more days uh that's actually the first time i've told that without breaking down and when i told them everything about the time we were spending together

changed everything about it changed because they knew I understood them. That's wild. Mm-hmm. How do you, or is part of the reason why you have 31 people working for you, with you, because listening to people's problems isn't super sustainable? No, it's because I made the intentional decision. So let me go back. 2020, we were, by anyone's estimation successful. Finance, like cashflow was great.

Workload was low. We were crushing. And my mentor asked me like, do you want to have a business that does this, which is basically the best representation of what Sean past you is capable of. You're killing it, dude. You can do this forever. Or do you want to be able to do the things that you state are important to you? I don't want to do things that I say are important to me. Well, then you need more people. Now the skills you need to develop are around leadership. you need more people. Now the skills you need to develop are around leadership. So we built a company that frankly we overbuilt because I expected inflow of business at a rate that we

haven't had inflow of business from being straight up about it. And I have amazing people working at Active Life. And so my responsibility is to grow that and to keep them and to keep them feeling safe and inspired and fulfilled by their work. What were some of the main things that helped you to be able to grow as a leader? Because I know you're probably reading a bunch of stuff. You've worked with mentors, but what do you think have been some of the biggest movers in terms of your personal growth over the years? Learning to think about what I'm thinking about is the first one. So it used to be have a thought, do a thing, have a thought, do a thing. Now it's have a thought, observe a thought. Where'd that thought come from? Do I want to do a thing with that? I don't know. So that was, that was the first one. Uh, the second one was understanding

that I lacked, I didn't lack the capacity for, I lacked the execution of empathy. So I thought I knew how people felt because I thought everyone felt like me. Once I started to learn, oh, that's not how they feel. It started to allow me to ask questions. How do you feel? Where does that come from? That's crazy. And I never thought that was leadership. I thought leadership feel? Where does that come from? That's crazy. And I never thought that

was leadership. I thought leadership was, we're going that way. What I learned is leadership is asking those questions because then people say, so now, you know, where, where should we go? I'm like, oh shit, that way. Okay. And now they want to go that way. Instead of me saying, we're going that way. What are you scared of? let's go right so those are the two biggest things it was it was starting to think about what i'm thinking about which i consider knowing myself and then gaining empathy for other people and understanding how they need to be spoken to when they need to be spoken to in that way all these things that's what made me a better leader um okay i really want to know this man because like picturing you as somebody who's like you know doing that shit it's it's hard because of

like the communication that we've had but i wonder like what how would your wife describe your change in your communication style with her over the years oh because like you're like you you're you've learned how to ask a lot of the right questions to people. But I wonder, you now versus you 15 years ago with your wife, what would she say changed? I'm a lot calmer. I drive a lot slower. I'm looking to instigate a lot less. And we did a podcast about this.

I interviewed her and asked her about it. I'm going to do it again. We've actually been talking about it because we did it like four years ago when I thought I had evolved and I'd started to,. I'm going to do it again. We've actually been talking about it because we did it like four years ago when I thought I had evolved and I'd started to, but we're going to do it again. She would say, I'm a totally different person. And what we talk about all the time is, why do you think we're not still friends with those people

who we were such good friends with five years ago? And the answer is we don't want to be anymore. Who I was then, that was fun. Who I am now, that's not fun. And so we joke about it often, like the people who knew me the best five, six, seven years ago have never met me. Have never met me. Has a lot of your experiences over the last several years and these changes, I imagine they must have helped you to be able to communicate with your girls, right? Oh, yeah. That's the most – a lot of this comes back to being able to do that.

I've learned more about – Or maybe they've helped you. Definitely. I've learned more about myself. Having all that estrogen in there. Yeah. Yeah. There's plenty of that. I've learned more about myself from my wife and leadership. I've

learned more of that from my kids than any mentor or book. You know, if there's anything I pride myself on, it's, it's being an intentional husband and parent. And so what I find is it just automatically carries over. Like those are somebody else that's someone's wife, that's someone's husband, that's someone's kid, and they just happen to work at the company that I started. So how would I want them treating my – I don't have to think about it. It just happens. Why do you have a job? Like why are people in so much pain? Why are people so jacked up?

Oh, man. Why are people in so much pain? Why are people so jacked up? Oh, man. You have a job and like tons and tons of people have jobs and books and stuff all just on the same topic of trying to figure out a way to not be in pain. If we boil it all the way back down, I think it's just because we live in a modern society and our bodies aren't built for it. Now what happens is, okay, what are we going to do about it? Now what happens is, okay, what are we going to do about it? And so I have a job because the person who needs to be helped in a way that is really,

really, really interpersonal, where they're not going to get it from a template. They're not going to get it from a book. They're not going to get it from following an Instagram account or a YouTube channel. They're like, no, no, I need to understand why, how, when, with who. They don't really have somewhere else to go the way that we do it. That's why we have a job. Kind of going back to yourself and your wife, you have obviously grown a lot through the years, but I find it really interesting how, like, I guess for that growth to happen,

your wife has probably grown a massive amount too. It's like it's not that one person's growing and some person's just always been amazing, right? How has you growing also potentially helped your wife grow and vice versa? Because I feel like, I mean, I'm 30. I've been in a few relationships. I don't have nearly the experience of all you guys here, right? in a few relationships, so I don't have near the experience of all you guys here, right? But one thing I do know is that when one person is trying to trudge along and move forward and the other person just isn't, that's not a, personally for me, that wasn't a recipe

for success, right? So how has that worked between you two? First of all, I agree with you wholeheartedly. If one person is working on personal development for themselves and the other person is like, I'm good enough, that's going to lead to a breakdown in the relationship. So at least it would for mine. My wife probably started intentional personal development after our third daughter was born. personal development after our third daughter was born. She experienced, I mean, she was always, my wife is,

I'm blessed because my friends like her better than they like me. You know, like when I went away to school, I would get phone calls from her hanging out with my friends. That's awesome, man. We went to a bachelor party one time, and I remember a bunch of guys who were not that close with me pile into the car. My wife was going to drive us to the strip club. And they were like, hey, I didn't know you were going to be like, don't tell so-and-so. And she's like, I'm not going to tell anybody.

And then she gives me a kiss. She's like, hey, don't fuck anybody. That's it. That was our rule. Go have fun. Just don't fuck anybody else, please. So she was ahead of me let's start yeah after we had our third daughter um she went through some serious postpartum mood disorder you know she was like she never got to the point

of being suicidal we did a podcast about this too but she was very very down and she had no idea why or how or any of that and so she actually ended up hiring a woman named Natalie. The one's a company called Fit Soul, who was able to have conversation with her that no one had been able to have with her before about like, why do you feel that way? How do you do it? And she just started asking her the questions

and it pulled her out of it. And since then, my wife has always had someone she's coaching with. I kind of have a question about that because I'm not sure. I've heard of postpartum depression. Were you intentional about not using that word, depression and mood disorder? Or is it just postpartum mood disorder? I don't know if they're the same thing or not. What I learned about, what we learned about my wife was she wasn't depressed all the time.

And so it wasn't appropriate to classify it as depression. It was almost like a mania, like a manic. You know, sometimes she's really good. Sometimes things are really bad. I remember one time I told her how good things were going in the company and she came down and she starts crying. I'm like, oh, it's awesome. She's like, no, I'm just so sad and like everybody can't have this experience and like i

feel so guilty oh what the fuck can we just celebrate you know uh not with the people next door not having dinner tonight right right right you're like they have dinner what are you talking about fine uh but yeah so so i think that's when she really started her personal development journey after that. She, she wants like, she's a, she's a tremendous mom. She's the best mom. And I know it's really important to her to do that. And we also, we've hired relationship coaches for ourselves when things were going well, you know, it was one of those like, uh, instead of waiting until the roof is leaky to fix it, let's just get up there right now and start patching things up.

So we hired Alexa Martinez. I don't know if you know who Alexa is or not. I don't. She's that sex chick on Instagram. I'll do that later. Yeah. And she helped us to understand like, hey, why do you have a viscerally negative response to that idea, whatever that idea is? Why is that so scary for you? And then're like oh i don't know why is that and we started having conversations with

each other about that kind of stuff and it took our relationship to a whole other level it's awesome it's awesome that you guys are so uh open to coaching you know people get coaching in a lot of different things a lot of different sports and in the gym, but sometimes in life, I don't think everyone's so receptive. Well, I think it's to give people a bit of a pass without giving you a pass. It can be difficult.

I was able to start. The first coach I hired, the mentor I was describing, I didn't have the money to do it, but I owned a business. And so I could move the money around. I could change some of the offers. I could do some things to free up some cash to pay this guy. Not everybody has that. Right. And then after that, all the coaching after that has been, I have the money now to pay for this stuff within reason.

Not everybody has that. And I understand that. And so, you know, Gabrielle Lyon introduced me to you and that's how we started talking. One of the things I said on her show was the best, what I've, what I've found before I could justify hiring anybody. And since then is find one voice who you think is super awesome and just only follow that person on social media. That's free. Follow them. Listen to everything they ask you to do. Do it of yourself. And then see where you're at in a year.

Instead of like, I learned this from Jesse Itzler. I learned this from, you know, whoever. I learned whatever. Creating your list. And then trying to live all these different people's lives. Pick one person. Follow them all the way until there's nothing else you think you can learn from their social media. Then consider, how is my life different?

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Pro cover or the Pod Pro mattress through June 6th. Stay cool this summer with 8sleep. Shipping the US, Canada, and all those good places. Link in the description down below. Kind of curious about this. You mentioned that you guys got coaching even when things were good. And what spurred that because usually like the the the thing is is like oh shit we need to get some work because things are fucking someone cheated on

somebody yeah yeah things are falling apart somebody right that's it and i dropped you off and you know but it's it's cool you said that because even my girl said that recently she's like things are great this is a great time for us to maybe just get some therapy just see what's up because but but i thought about that i was like but why but actually you have a point so yeah what led me to doing it was i had friends who had done it and when i asked them the same question why would you do it now they're like well because i can sit across my wife until i don't like it when she does that thing because she doesn't take that personally so we can have those difficult conversations right now and it's easier to have more difficult conversations when things are good than it is when things are bad one of the things i feared i'll straight up i feared like my wife

learning things about herself that made us not a good fit anymore. That was my biggest fear. Like before we start doing any of this stuff, like we're together, right? You know? And so that was my biggest fear. But when we developed at the same time, it was – She realized like I don't really need him. He's not that jacked. He used to be more ripped uh so yeah it was it was just it was just feeling

like that was that was the easiest path to learning about each other because things were good do you think that's also something beneficial to do on your own even when things are good or it depends on the person especially especially especially um one of the most valuable conversations i ever had over the friend was with Michael Cashew. We, I talked to him about, I had my podcast last week. We had a conversation where we told each other what we thought the other one

did really well as a friend. And then the things that we think the other one could do a much better job of as a friend. It was like, let me tell you something. It's a hard conversation, but if you can steep in it, you can really improve yourself. And I have a hard time having that conversation with somebody who was doing it from a here's what you do wrong instead of a here's what my experience has been when this happens.

So always. I'm sorry to keep down this road. It's a good road. Your perception or the way you interpret criticism has that grown over the years? Did you, did you ever? Yes. I used to. Oh God. Yes. Yes. I had a podcast that asked me to come on like six years ago. And it was after I made a post talking about like, if you can do 20 step ups on your left leg with this weight at this height and only two on this leg at the same height you should probably fix that it might lead to these things no absolutes none of that these guys reach out they're like

this is bullshit you're wrong about this you know where's your where's your empirical evidence they're like you want to come on our podcast and debate it you're fucking about this you know where's your where's your empirical evidence they're like you want to come on our podcast and debate it you're fucking right i do so i listened to a bunch of their podcasts and i listened to how they did it there were three guys and they used to gang up on the one guest so and and they're like you know stanford doctor that sounds familiar but they're like you know this guy's from stanford this guy they're all smarter than me objectively smarter than me everybody would agree so i'm like hey can we do a pre-interview we're in chat once sure so i'm like i i listened to a bunch of your shows and i'm excited to come on i really am because i want

you to find holes in what i got going on i just have a question for you before we do do you guys shower like what kind of question is that of course course we shower. But why? Well, for hygiene. I'm like, right. But like, has the water in your house ever been double blind studied? Or is it possible that you're still dirty when you get out of your shower? And they were like, well, that's ridiculous. I'm like, but is it? What soap do you use? And I went down the whole path.

I'm like, I just want to give you guys some clarity that if we're going to podcast, you need to leave this stuff in. There's no editing this stuff out because this is the kind of conversation we're going to have. I'm not waiting for evidence. I'm not waiting for the scientific industry to catch up to the things I'm trying to innovate on so that I can have permission to innovate. They canceled the podcast. But I used to, I used to, I permission to innovate, they canceled the podcast. But I used to, I used to, I would go for that fight all the time. Now, if somebody wanted to bring me on for the same reason, I'd be happy to do it.

And it would be a totally different conversation. I understand why you feel that way. Why do you feel like we need to figure out exactly what's right? Like, why is there a one right thing to do how is this wrong for everybody wrong for somebody i would have much less identity at stake i know why you feel that way even though it's stupid right it's because you're dumb right yeah yeah totally andrew you got anything else over there buddy yeah i'm curious for clients that you've helped get out of pain like um if you followed them like as time passed like has there been some like big like revelations where like they got out of back pain next thing you know i don't know their their

marriage got better or they got like a new job and they're making tons more money stuff like that because i think because i've had well i used to have a lot of back pain for years and like once I got over it, like so many things started click, just clicking and I didn't expect it. All I wanted was I just want to wake up without being in a ton of pain. Whereas now it's like, holy shit, like life's going really well. So I'm just curious if you've seen like a pattern of that happening? It happens all the time. And what I'd say is this, it used to happen by accident. So it used to be like, oh, this person changed their relationships. That's fucking crazy. And then we started asking ourselves, how do we do that on purpose? How do we go from like, why did this person get a better job, find a better relationship, and they're living a better life? This person had the exact same

complaint when they come in and everything is the same except the complaint what's the difference between person a and person b and so we started to look at how do we make sure everybody gets the result of the person whose entire life has changed so the answer to your question the short answer is yes happens all the time the longer answer is it happens as a result of asking questions about what are you learning about yourself as this starts to go away. You know, for you, the, what I like to call it, the bed of nails, your bed of nails that you were laying on was back pain. So all you were thinking about was getting out of back pain. Get me off of this bed of nails. I don't want to lay here anymore. And people were like, dude, have you thought about your job?

And you're like, get me off this bed of nails. It's the same as the person who's struggling with the finances who's not thinking about exercise. Their bed of nails is the finances. When someone stands up and they're not laying on nails anymore, they can start to say, what do I want to do with my life now? I'm standing. This is so cool.

So yes, the answer to your question happens all the time. That's awesome. This is the last thing I think I'll ask. But on top of what Andrew just asked right there, I think we kind of talked about how people talk about their pain here. But what are some concepts that you can give to people about the way that they think about the pain, the way that they communicate their pain, the way they speak about it? What can people try to take away right now that could be helpful for their mindset when it does come to their pain? This goes beyond pain. And I think it's useful for all things that we feel. You can feel something

without becoming it. And so I say this to my eight-year-old a lot. Are you feeling it or are you becoming it? Are you feeling it or is it you? When she'll say like, yeah, you know, my knee hurts. I'm like, are you feeling pain or are you in pain? What's going on here? And we have these conversations. The reason why that's so important is we need to be able to dissociate that pain from us. We need to remove the difficulty from identity.

So what that allows people to do is start to talk about their pain as something that they are experiencing instead of something that they are becoming. When it's something that you're experiencing, you can change your experience. When it's you, a lot more has to happen for that thing to go away. And so people start to limit their own lives. You know, oh, I'll give you a perfect example. Recently, a guy was like, hey, my shoulder hurts and I want help with my shoulder pain. Okay. Well, what is your shoulder pain? Like, why now? I imagine it didn't happen yesterday. No, it happened six months ago. Okay. So why,

why now? Well, because I can't play softball with my friends anymore or baseball with my friends anymore. Okay. Well, why is that important to you? Well, because I want't play softball with my friends anymore or baseball with my friends anymore. Okay. Well, why is that important to you? Well, because I want to be able, like, that's where I socialize. It's where we get to ride each other. And like, it's, it's what we do. What's that? I'm joking. So that's fine.

That's what we do. Great. So what I'm really hearing you say is that what's at stake here is not shoulder pain. It's your friendships, your social life. Is that true? Yes. Okay, great. First thing we're going to do is identify that your shoulder pain

should not be limiting you from hanging out with your friends. When is the last time you went to baseball? I haven't gone all season. Why not? Because I can't play. You just told me that you go so that you can ride your friends. You can still sit next to your friends and make fun of them for hitting the ball to the warning track instead of over the fence. You can still do that, right? Oh yeah. Well, so then this week I want

you to go to baseball and hang out with your friends. Huh? Yeah. And then they'll say things all the time. Like my shoulder feels better already. I'm like, well, it's not better, but you've unwrapped this huge knot around that shoulder is me. My entire life is going to fall apart because of this shoulder. It's just some pain in the joint that happens when you do these things. We can change that. So that's, I would like, if people take one thing away from this, it's that you can experience something without being that thing. If you can dissociate that, you can start to look at the experience that you're having and start asking questions of where did this come from? Do I want to keep experiencing this?

How do I get more of it? How do I get less of it? What needs to change? But it's just an experience. It's not you. That's the fundamental thing I would love people to pull from this. you that's the fundamental thing i would love people to pull from this and the time gets amplified you know like when somebody has a pain they're because they when you're in pain or when something's registered as like a negative stressor you lose track of time and so you might say it

always hurts you know you might say these things and then you're like well does it actually always hurt like does your shoulder actually always like it hurts right now as you're like well does it actually always hurt like does your shoulder actually always like it hurts right now as we're talking or is it only hurt when you're sleeping or only hurt when you're exercising those are all things that i think are really important for people to try to walk through have you guys come across mark england no i don't believe so i'd recommend if you're enjoying the language stuff i would look into mark england and his course called and lifted uh we put our entire team through it when it was so-called Procabulary like five years ago.

Procabulary? Yeah. That's awesome. But so what Mark does is he – I don't want to minimize what he does, so I'll just speak to the overarching theme. He teaches people how to start to think about what they're saying and how those thoughts – how those words lead to thoughts and how those thoughts lead to beliefs and those beliefs lead to actions.

And so what we would do with a client as a result of learning this stuff from him is story work, right? So it always hurts. Okay. I want you to write down as detailed as you possibly can. Everything about that thing, right? Everything about that thing that you're describing is your problem. Detailed. Now I want you to read it out loud. Not to anybody else, read it to yourself out loud at 70% speed. Great. Do it again.

Now I want you to take a deep parasympathetic breath every time that there's a punctuation, a comma, or a period. What happens is you start to read it like, this is ridiculous. This isn't true. None of this is true. This is just what I say. Now it's start to what if, start to write down all of your what ifs. What if the can't, right? What if the good stuff? What if this was not true? What if I could do this? What if I did that? What if this worked? And when you get through all of that, the idea of like, my back always hurts. It's such a ridiculous thought.

How did I ever say something like that? And it allows people to start to move forward much more quickly. And then people using like descriptive words like you can start to see how untrue the statements really are. Like my shoulder fucking kills me. Well, I think we have proof that it's not killing you at the moment right and when you start doing that people are like dude like you get what i'm saying like i do get what you're saying right i want to make sure you get what it sounds like you know uh and and then and then the the the the other side of that is we work with coaches from around the world who want to be able to do this for their clients.

They come in because they want to do the health and fitness stuff. They don't think about the personal development stuff until we start developing them. And then they're like, bro, I can do these both at the same time. You have to do these both at the same time if you want it to work. And one of the things that I see with language like this is the person who's out there right now, they're a coach and their Instagram account says, I work with 25 to 45 year old, busy professional hustlers who want to X, Y, Z in this time period. And I'll ask him, I'm like, so let me ask you something. My dad is 69 years old. He has the money that he needs to work with you. He has all of the time in the world. He's not a busy anything, but you wouldn't take him, right? Like he's not a good client for you. No, I would

totally take your dad. Like, is he looking for a coach? I'm like, but wait, hold on a second. Why did you say 45 to, I mean, 25 to 45 busy hustlers? And he's not, he's none of that. And then it's like, oh shit. Some copywriter taught me to write that thing because it would make people want to find me. Well, let me ask you, how's that going?

Not very well. Have you ever considered that might be because busy 25 to 45 year old hustlers aren't looking for a coach on Instagram? It's like you ever heard the Lamborghini CEO story or CMO story? No. They're like, hey, how come you don't advertise on TV? I've never seen a Lambo ad on TV. It's like Lamborghini drivers don't watch TV.

So it's the idea of why would you say that in your Instagram bio if it's not true? Well, because you've never considered if it's true or not. Why have you never considered if it's true or not? Well, because someone told you it would make you some money. Well, is it working? No. When it does work, do you feel good about it? No.

Well, then what should you write there? I have no idea. Good. Now we know where we can start making money capitalist pig i'm all about making money make it disgusting well you should give it all away you shouldn't keep any of it right like i mean i'm just kidding like make make a bunch of money and do good stuff with it uh have a fun life enjoy yourself you know i used to i used to i wouldn't i wouldn't say i was ashamed but there was a time when I was like, I feel guilty. Like I'm making, I'm making

money now. And I don't know, I don't give any to charity. Now I'm like, I'm glad I didn't give any to charity. I needed that to get us through this time. Right? Like it's, do you make it live the life that you want to live and the people who are around you who resonate with it who understand your intent will either be drawn to it or they won't and that's fine yeah i saw one of the clips where you were talking about money and i thought some of the wording around that was really interesting i'll share it uh you saw a clip where i was talking about i imagine um stop saying that you don't do it for the money and start acknowledging that it's the only thing you love enough to do for money. And so you need to be great at it.

And if you need to be great at it, you need to develop, you need to devote a lot of time to it. And if it's the only thing you're going to make money doing and all of your time is going into it, you better make enough money to live a great life. And then start to look at the people who right now are telling you, I love what you do. You're so great at this. And you wear that as like this, you know, this, this shield of amazingness, like these people love me. I can't charge more money. Realize that they're not actually in love with you. They're in love with the service that you give them right now. And as soon as you level it up, they're not actually in love with you. They're in love with the service that you give them right now. And as soon as you level it up, they're going to be gone.

They value a low-value service. Start doing a good enough job that you can feel good about making great money doing it. And then do with that money whatever you want. Go buy a nice big Ric Flair watch and some snake shoes. Do you know Randall Pitch? Have you guys ever had him on? No. Live Fit Apparel?

Yeah, yeah. We have not had him on though. So he's a fascinating guy. But I had him on my podcast maybe four years ago. And he was talking about the thing that made Live Fit successful is he wanted to buy a Lambo. And his rule was I'm only going to buy a Lambo. And his rule was, I'm only going to buy a Lambo when I can buy two Lambos.

Then I'll buy one. And now he employs like 25 people and has the Lambo. He's like, so is it bad that my intent in the beginning was to make enough money to buy a Lambo? And I found out I needed to employ 25 people, give them health insurance and afford them a life that they enjoy living to get there.

Is it bad that I started with wanting to buy a Lambo? I don't think so. Andrew, take us on out of here, buddy. All righty. Everybody, thank you for checking out today's episode. Please drop those comments below. Let us know what you guys think about today's podcast. And hit that like button and subscribe if you guys are not subscribed already.

Follow the podcast at MBPowerProject all over the place. My Instagram is at IamAndrewZNCima. Where are you at? Discord's down below for all that good stuff. At SEMA in Yang on Instagram and YouTube and SEMA in Yang on TikTok and Twitter. Sean, where can people find you and everything you do?

Easiest place to find me is at Dr. Sean Pastuch on Instagram. That's D R Sean S E A N Pastuch P A S T U C H on Instagram. Everything is linked from there. I'm at Mark's Melly Bell. Strength is never weakness. Weakness never strength. Catch you guys later.

Bye.