Mark Bell's Power Project - Power Project EP. 127 - Dr. William Davis

Episode Date: October 18, 2018

Dr. William Davis is a cardiologist, NY Best-Selling author of Wheat Belly, and speaker on obtaining real health without the healthcare system through a wheat-free, grain-free lifestyle. With this lifestyle, he has helped thousands of patients obtain normal blood pressure levels, positive weight loss, improvement or total relief from arthritis, improvement in asthma, complete relief from acid reflux and irritable bowel syndrome symptoms, increased mental clarity, deeper sleep, and more stable moods and emotions. Useful Links discussed on the podcast: Blog: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/blog/ L. reuteri Yogurt: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2018/04/make-l-reuteri-yogurt/ Wheat Belly Books: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/books/ Wheat Belly Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/OfficialWheatBelly/ Wheat Belly 10 Day Detox: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/ecourse/ ➢SHOP NOW: https://markbellslingshot.com/ Enter Discount code, "POWERPROJECT" at checkout and receive 15% off all Sling Shots ➢Subscribe Rate & Review on iTunes at: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-bells-power-project/id1341346059?mt=2 ➢Listen on Stitcher Here: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/mark-bells-power-project?refid=stpr ➢Listen on Google Play here: https://play.google.com/music/m/Izf6a3gudzyn66kf364qx34cctq?t=Mark_Bells_Power_Project ➢Listen on SoundCloud Here: https://soundcloud.com/markbellspowerproject FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell ➢ Snapchat: marksmellybell Follow The Power Project Podcast ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MarkBellsPowerProject Podcast Produced by Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz

You guys ready to go? I'm ready to go. Let's get this party started. This paper over here, it's got to be wrong, but it says you've been a cardiologist for over 30 years. That's too long. That sounds like a world record. More like 25 years. 25 years.

How'd you get started in all this? My mom died of sudden cardiac death about four months after a successful two-vessel coronary angioplasty and that's what i did i put it i did angioplasty atherectomy put stents in stop heart attacks all those kinds of things so my mom died suddenly i lived i came from new jersey she was living in new jersey i was in wisconsin at the time i did the call was she uh in early 70s so she drops dead of the disease I took care of every day. And I thought I knew something about. But it got me started on this idea that, you know, you can't deliver health in a procedure lab, in a cath lab in this case.

So I started to look for ways to identify people, you know, years, months, years or longer before those kinds of terrible things happen to people. Well, back then the device we use was called an EBT device. And we did heart scans. We scanned thousands of people. I set up the first scanner in Wisconsin. There was two in Chicago, but none in Wisconsin. We set that up, started scanning people left and right. And it became clear heart disease is everywhere. Business guy is 50 years old. Says, I just want to know if my dad had a heart attack at age 52. I'm 50.

Do I have it? Yes, he does. We scan him. He's got a high score. A normal score is zero. What do you do about that? So I'm having all these people very concerned because they have coronary risk. They have high heart scan scores.

And back then, this is 20 some years ago my answer was lipitor aspirin uh exercise everything moderation cuts your fat right we help publish the data to show that does not work it has zero effect why was that your answer because that 25 years ago 20 some years ago there wasn't a whole lot more in conventional that's what you were taught and that's what they're, yes. That's what you learned in school and things like that and in your practice. Right. The consensus opinion, by the way, when it became clear that conventional answers did

nothing, nothing, the consensus opinion from experts was don't scan people again. Just let their heart disease progress and wait till they have chest pain or a heart attack, then deal with it. Wait till the symptoms? Yes. Which of course, half the time is death. Right. So I thought that was completely ridiculous and unsatisfactory. So I started to set about finding my own answers. And it took some years of stumbling around, but it led to lessons like when you add vitamin D to someone's regimen, the heart scan score plummeted. It dropped. It was the first time I saw dramatic and very consistent regression, reversal of coronary disease. But the other thing that happened was

if you reject this idea that cholesterol testing shows you heart disease risk, which is an absurdity, by the way, it does not. Cholesterol has nothing to do with heart disease. It's a crude marker for the things that cause heart disease, that is, lipoproteins in the bloodstream, particles that can cause heart disease. If you track lipoproteins, you see right away that by a long stretch, the overwhelming cause for coronary disease, that is people with these high heart scan scores and risk for heart attack, is not cholesterol. It's not bad cholesterol. It's small LDL particles. And the science is quite clear on this.

Not my science, by the way. This came from UC Berkeley and Hopkins and other places. The factors in diet that cause small LDL particles that are very inflammatory, they last longer in the bloodstream, they're very adherent to artery tissue. The only foods that cause an explosion in small LDL particles in the bloodstream, grains and sugars. So I had my patients with these terrible small LDL values, maybe 1,800 or 2,000 or 2,400 nanomoles per liter.

I'd have them remove all grains and sugars. They'd come back, we'd measure a small LDL, it'd be zero, or some of the very low number. In other words, it wouldn't be a little bit better. It wouldn't be 20% better or 30% better like you get with a statin drug. You'd see obliteration in the majority of people. But then everybody started coming back and saying things like this. Hey, you didn't tell me I'd lose 57 pounds. started coming back and saying things like this. Hey, you didn't tell me I'd lose 57 pounds. You didn't tell me my irritable bowel syndrome, ulcerative colitis, Crohn's disease, seborrhea, psoriasis, eczema, joint pain, migraine, headaches, depression would all go away. And at first I thought, I didn't know it was going to go away. But this happened so many times,

became clear that I had stumbled on something. That if we take the foods that all nutritional authorities, at least at the time, advocated eating, that is whole grains. If we took them out, astounding things happened. And so that led me down the whole wheat belly path. Yeah, just removing junk. I mean, it tends to be what we want to overeat and overindulge on. When you have things like red meat and eggs and you have almost a lower carb lifestyle, you certainly can overeat on those foods, but you don't really want to. It's not like eating chocolate cake. That's right. And there's something in wheat, particularly modern wheat. So one of the things that I learned because I wanted to understand why is this happening? Why are people having dramatic transformations of health by taking out the food all nutritional authorities advocate? Yeah, what's wrong with wheat? I mean, haven't we been eating, you know, grains for thousands

of years? I mean, haven't people been eating it for a long time? We've been eating it, give or take, about 10,000 years, meaning less than one half of 1% of human time on this planet. So it's actually a relatively recent addition to the human diet, speaking anthropologically. Now, when we did add it, we added wild strains of wild growing wheat, like einkorner emmer. And those forms of grains are not harmless. They're just less harmful than modern strains. Agribusiness and geneticists changed modern wheat. So if you, you know, when I wrote the first Wheat Belly book, I went out to look for wheat fields. I'm thinking to myself, I can't find any.

Until you get up close, you realize modern wheat is a high-yield semi-dwarf strain. It's short. It's about 18 inches tall. It has a very thick stalk. It has very large seeds and a large seed head. And the farmers like it because it increases yield per acre many times higher, as much as eight-fold higher yield per acre. So you can't blame the poor farmers. They have to pay their bills too. But they also changed numerous proteins in modern wheat. One of the things they changed was gliadin. People say gluten, but a better terminology is gliadin. Gliadin was changed, and it amplified its opioid effects.

So when you consume the gliadin protein in wheat, also rye and barley, and the zeon protein in some green corn, humans cannot digest grains because they're seeds of grasses that's why when you cut your lawn in the summertime i don't know if you do that california but i know in wisconsin we do you don't save the clippings to toss on top of a salad with some roquefort right but why not it's a it's greens a plant like spinach right or kale well humans are incapable of digesting any component of the grasses, including the seeds. We can't eat the roots. We can't eat the stalk. We can't eat the seeds. Well, we can eat it, but we can't digest it. So the gliadin protein in wheat is degraded only partially to pieces

or peptides. These peptides are often four to five amino acids long, but they're very unique in structure and they act as opioids. They bind to the opiate receptor of the human brain. It doesn't make us high. They amplify appetite. So that's why that effect you're talking about, where people who have chocolate cake just can't stop because there's an opioid appetite stimulant in it.

Wow. But the reverse of that is if you recognize that fact and you take it out of your diet, chocolate cake, bread, bagels, pasta, et cetera, some really incredible things happen. First of all, you go through an opiate withdrawal syndrome. People call it such things as keto flu, Atkins flu. No, it's an opiate withdrawal syndrome from stopping the flow of glide and derived opioid peptides. Interesting. I didn't know that. I always kind of thought it was, uh, uh, and not even the, I thought it was kind of more the absence of the carbohydrates is what people were suffering from.

That's part of it. And that's why athletes have, uh, uh, diminished performance for the first six weeks or so. But it's almost like the addiction to the carbohydrates is what they're suffering from. Maybe more so. Well, it's addiction to the opioids. Gotcha. And so it's much like opioid withdrawal. There's shakiness, nausea, headache, depression.

I've actually seen many people rolled up in balls. They're really miserable. So people listening to this and who do this have to know it can be very unpleasant. I can't eat any carbs. But once you're through that, you have this incredible freedom from appetite. That's why a lot of us forget to eat sometimes. We have a breakfast of three eggs and bacon or something for breakfast, and you're not hungry maybe until dinnertime. And of course, that ridiculous advice to eat many small meals every two hours, which is very, very bad advice.

All that kind of nonsense goes away when you remove, glide, and drive opioid peptides. Is there anything that's man-made that's worth a shit in terms of eating? Man-made? You know, like, I mean, like, I guess something like yogurt, you know, is not like, you don't just find yogurt, like, in its natural form. Like, we got to kind of make it right. Like, is there, um, you know, is there anything that's, that's modernly, uh, engineered or even manufactured on a large level that's healthy for us?

That's productive for us. I'd have to think long and hard about that one, but I, but I will say fermented foods, you know, fermentation is a kind of form of controlled rotting that became, I wouldn't say necessary, but it happened naturally because, you know fermentation is a kind of form of controlled rotting right that became I wouldn't say necessary but happened naturally because you know people didn't have refrigerators until the last few decades and even before then that there was only seasonal ice and so how did you preserve food well you could bury in the dirt I could salt it and most the time you let it rot but fermentation is kind

of a form of rotting. It's lactic acid fermentation. And so yogurt actually is kind of a natural product. We could question about the wisdom of consuming dairy products, but I do want to talk about the yogurt we make. That is a very interesting conversation. A little off topic for this, though. But, you know, there are foods that humans do manufacture. You know, one of the hurdles for the people

who follow my lifestyles is that, uh, a lot of this becomes inconvenient. You're preparing a lot of your own food. You're not buying self-wrapped microwave, microwavable foods, and there is some preparation, but there are some selected products where you can buy manufactured products and that they're okay. Like coconut milk is pretty reasonable, but that's made in the factory. is pretty reasonable, but that's made in the factory. What about, uh, things like rice, you know, like a lot of us, uh, we like to lift and, um, you know, for a lot of us, uh, we utilize some carbohydrates for fuel. We utilize carbohydrates to stay big, to kind of keep our muscle mass. And so things like rice and potatoes, those are pretty common, uh, in the bodybuilding world, in the powerlifting world.

Are those things okay for us or does it depend on the person? Well, rice is a grain also. It's the seed of a grain, the rice plant. But it's at the more benign end of grains because it's 95% carbs. But it's 95% carbs. So we've got a problem with that. There is a protein though. So there is, it does share some proteins with wheat,

wheat, rye, barley, et cetera, such as wheat germaglutinin, wheat germaglutinin. It sounds like gluten, but it's unrelated.

Wheat germaglutinin is a very toxic compound. It's completely indigestible humans. So if it goes in the mouth, it comes out in the toilet, but in the course from mouth to toilet, it is highly inflammatory and very destructive to the gastrointestinal tract. It's also very inflammatory if it gains entrance into your bloodstream. Even white rice would have that?

Even white rice does. Now, we have this more recent issue also with rice, even beyond wheat germ and gluten, and it's amylopectin carbohydrate content, and that is the newly discovered issue of arsenic, that there's a lot of arsenic in rice, so much so that rice milk, for instance, is highly toxic to infants. So that's got to be looked at more closely. It's not been a common cause of acute toxicity, but whether it's a cause for chronic toxicity is now an open question. It probably is.

And so you've got to be careful when you consume rice because of those reasons. But it is at the open question. It probably is. And so, uh, you gotta be careful when you consume rice because of those reasons. It's, but it is at the more benign end of grains, but it still is a seed of grass. How do you think some of this started with us getting so unhealthy? Do you think it was some of the movement towards, uh, like fat-free foods and things like that? And you know, the, um, uh, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the big food companies were trying to create, um, you know, products that were, because there lot of the big food companies were trying to create, um, you know, products that were, because there was a movement, there was a big push along, you know, years ago for, um, these kinds of things like snack wells and things that had reduced fat in them. And so

the packaging would say that a product had reduced fat and then it was fortified with vitamin A and vitamin D or whatever the hell they were trying to sell you on, right? Do you think that that was kind of the start of some of the problems here in the United States with people being so heavy and unhealthy? Yeah, I think there's a whole collection of blunders we could put our finger at, but I think a big part of it was the bad science, misrepresentation and ambitions of the people who wanted to advocate the low fat lifestyle like Ancel Keys, that he's the most infamous one he published the seven countries study that was complete nonsense because he concealed the other data that showed that fat consumption has nothing to do with cardiovascular risk and so that misrepresentations misinterpretations very

badly constructed studies to this day are still used by the American Heart Association. They actually said this in their recent reiteration of the low-fat, low-saturated-fat diet. They said that the studies from the 1950s and 1960s are the basis for the American Heart Association low-fat diet. Now, they did add some of the more recent data that came from the Physician's Health Study, Nurse's Health Study, which in my view are garbage because they're observational. It's the same kind of study that led to Premarin being the most widely prescribed drug for females worldwide for about a decade. That is observational data. You

ask somebody, do you take Premarin? No, I don't. Do you take Premarin? Yes, I do. And you watch those people. It makes it look as if women who took Premarin had less breast cancer, uterine cancer, endometrial cancer, and heart disease until the real studies came out, the HERS and the Women's Health Initiative prospective trials. We don't say, what do you take? We say, you're taking this pill. I don't know what it is. You don't know what it is, but we'll tell you in five years after we see who has more heart attacks and strokes, et cetera. Those studies showed that Premarin increased breast cancer, increased endometrial cancer, increased heart disease, and accelerated dementia.

But it's a great illustration of how awful and how misleading observational data can be. Yet that's what the American Heart Association, the U.S. Dietary Guidelines for Americans, If that's what the American Heart Association, the U.S. Dietary Guidelines for Americans, USA Food Plate, Food Pyramid rely on observational studies, which is like having no data at all. Four times out of five, the conclusions drawn by observational studies are proven wrong. But it leads to titillating headlines like red meat causes cancer. Well, that does not cause cancer. It's just a little bit of observational data suggested as an association that has yet to be proven. Should we even have things like the American Heart Association? Should these associations or the government have any role in what we eat?

Do we need to be protected from ourselves that much? I think an odd phenomenon has happened. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the American Heart Association, American Diabetes Association have gotten so cozy with big pharma, the medical device industry, the hospital industry, that they've changed their message. Why else would Cocoa Puffs and Berry Kix and Count Chocula have the stamp of approval of the American Heart Association checkmark? Right. But it's evidence of just how deeply Coca-Cola is a big supporter of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. And so they say, oh, Coca-Cola is fine in moderation, just exercise an additional 30 minutes every day. So they have become voice boxes for industry.

And undoing that's going to be a long, slow process. It may never happen it started by the way in australia where their dietetic uh community is starting to reject uh uh industry funding it's going to take a long time if it ever happens in north america yeah yeah it seems like uh it's hard to even figure out like what to eat you know you start to take out some of these grains so like what are some suggestions that you give people towards uh you like what to eat, you know, you start to take out some of these grains. So like, what are some suggestions that you give people towards, uh, you know, what to eat because, you know, things like saturated fat and cholesterol there, uh, you know, uh, dietary cholesterol and saturated fat in our foods. We can't be eating that all day. Can we?

Sure. Sure. You can. So it's become clear that dietary cholesterol has nothing to do with heart disease. And it's also become clear that dietary saturated fat and total fat have nothing to do with heart disease. What does cause heart disease is when you cut cholesterol and fat and you replace those lost calories with carbohydrates like grains, even whole grains. That's where you escalate heart disease, risk for dementia, gastrointestinal cancers, type 2 diabetes. And that's exactly what we've seen, right? The U.S. Dietary Guidelines for Americans that were released in 1984 coincides perfectly with the huge rise in obesity, type 2 diabetes, and by the way, the silent epidemic of autoimmune diseases, which is everywhere now. Yeah. In that shift towards the carbohydrates, Is that, um, does that include like if you were to,

because if you reduced, you know, your, the amount of fat that you were taking in and shifted over to carbohydrates, I would imagine that you would be eating less calories in a sense. Does it include, you know, people that are, you know, trying to manage their diet or is the shift to carbohydrates kind of more like people that are rolling through a McDonald's and they're getting the, you know, they're getting, they're getting the carbs and the fat combination together. I think there's several, you know, we don't want to make diet too hard for people. When you impose all these rules, where you're counting grams of this or calories, uh, it gets frustrating. And for the most part, it's unnecessary. So what I've been advocating, and it's worked on a large scale, is, of course, no grains

because of all the health-impairing effects. And ironically, of course, the food advocated and agreed upon by all nutritional authorities. But take it all out. Take out all grains and miraculous things happen. That starts the process. Beyond that, reject this idea that dietary fat, cholesterol, etc. has anything to do with heart disease. It does not. That science is quite solid now. So don't restrict your fat. In fact, I tell people, use more fat. Buy some lard. Just make sure it's not hydrogenated.

Tallow. More butter, organic preferably. More coconut oil. Never trim the fat off your meat. never trim the fat off your meat, buy fatty cuts, never buy lean meats, buy full fat meats, eat more liver. So don't mind the fat. In fact, if anything, add more fat. If there's something that I think we should restrict, it's carbs because carbs are cheap, they're filler, and they fill so many processed foods. The easy way to do this is just eat real foods, eat an avocado, eat a piece of steak, eat bacon, eat green vegetables. You don't have to worry about that, but a lot of people don't want to do that. And so they end up getting overexposed to carbs. And we have two thirds of Americans who have type two diabetes or prediabetes. So a huge amount of people need to unwind insulin

resistance and limiting carbs. So what we do is we limit our net carb intake that is total carbs minus fiber to no more than 15 grams net carbs per meal and that's worked very very well for just about every person that's kind of the guideline is uh on average per meal less than 15 grams of carbohydrates and he said minus the fiber minus the fiber that's right now fiber. That's right. Now, you can change that over time as you get better at resensitizing yourself to insulin, as you lose weight, as you restore bowel flora, restore vitamin D, all the things that influence insulin status. And some people can individualize. One of the things we've done with a lot of people

is have them buy an inexpensive glucose meter and check a blood sugar just prior to a meal. And then at the peak of blood sugar at 30 to 60 minutes after the start of the meal, not like the doctor says, check it two hours later, because what he's looking for is how well your insulin or drugs are controlling blood sugar. That's not the question here. The question is how much of a rise in blood sugar is this meal giving you? And something wonderful happens when you allow no change in blood sugar is this meal giving you? And something wonderful happens when you allow no change in blood sugar. I call it the no change rule. So if you start at 90, you want it no higher than 90, certainly no higher than 100. If you start with insulin resistance, let's say you're diabetic and you start at 120, you don't want it to go any higher

than 120. When you do that, follow this kind of what I call the no change rule, weight loss is accelerated, reversal of fatty liver, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, a lot of other conditions, it's all accelerated. But you'll see how readily you can provoke that rise in blood sugar from, let's say, 90 to 130. So if you have a bowl of stone ground, organic oatmeal, no added sugar, blood sugar will go from 90 to 180 in no time in a non-diabetic. That's how awful grains can be. That's that amylopectin A carbohydrate that's highly and unusually digestible by humans. That's why grains raise blood sugar so high. That's fascinating.

Um, in terms of, uh, you know, in terms of some of the things that you talk about in terms of like gut flora, it appears that there's, uh, we need some form of carbohydrates, right? So, um, you may be just eating meat all the time. You know, there are a lot of people are talking about the carnivore diet. My brother's a big fan of the carnivore diet. I've done it myself, um, and had success with it, but, uh, that might not be the greatest idea as well. Right. You know, those are great for the short term. So whether we call it a carnivorous diet or a ketogenic diet,

you can get great effects out of that. Accelerated weight loss, reversal of type 2 diabetes, reversal of fatty liver. Problem, you change bowel flora dramatically. And over time, that leads to dysbiosis, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, SIBO, which is a very serious, very common problem, which amplifies potential for inflammation. People get constipated, they get diverticular disease, and down the road can even get colon cancer. But before that happens, other things happen. HDL drops, triglycerides. So people lose a lot of weight and their HDL and triglyceride and blood sugar improves in the beginning, but long-term, HDL goes down, triglycerides go back up, blood sugar goes back up, insulin resistance re-expresses itself. In other words, you have distortions of metabolism. Some of that,

or a lot of it's mediated via dysbiosis, changes in bowel flora, but there's other reasons also. We know this because we have experience in the Atkins world and kids who follow ketogenic diets for intractable seizures. So kids, we have thousands now in clinical trials. When they go on a ketogenic diet for any length of time, they have less seizures. That's true. And they have an increase in acromantia species in their bowel floor. So there's some positive changes, but they stop growing. They have an explosive quantity of kidney stones. Kids aren't supposed

to get kidney stones, but they get both oxalate and urate kidney stones. An occasional kid develops a cardiomyopathy, a heart muscle disease and heart failure. There's an occasional sudden cardiac death and there's very common osteoporosis. So ketosis, Atkins, low carb, all fine. But one, we got to pay attention to prebiotic fibers that come in carbohydrate vehicles. And two, being ketotic is natural and physiologic for the short term. I kind of look at it as like stress, stress response, jumping out of a plane with a parachute is a normal physiologic response. But what if you're an adrenaline junkie and you want stress all the time, or you have a source of stress like a sick spouse or a child with autism have to take care of? Chronic stress is very unhealthy. We know it increases risk for depression, heart disease, dementia, and cancer. So same thing

here. Short-term physiologic ketosis, wonderful, a great tool to know about, but it's a short-term tool, just like stress. What are these prebiotic fibers that you're suggesting? How do we get those? So they're nothing more than fibers that you can ingest, but cannot digest. We don't have the enzymatic machinery to break down prebiotic fibers. So they get to the bacteria that are supposed to be confined to the colon, and they are metabolized to all sorts of good things, metabolites. And the metabolites of prebiotic fibers are the mediators of many of the healthy effects of having healthy bowel flora, such as better dreams, better sleep, more energy,

less anxiety, lower triglycerides, lower blood sugar, better insulin responsiveness. less anxiety, lower triglycerides, lower blood sugar, better insulin responsiveness. And it's becoming clear that feed your bacteria with healthy prebiotic fibers and they do spectacular things for you. Like what kind of foods have that? Like, you know, what's an example of like a prebiotic fiber? Well, let me qualify this by saying, because if I tell you and your listeners, they say, well, come, that sounds knuckleheaded. That sounds stupid. Because what we're trying to do is mimic the natural wild situation.

So if we were natural wild people living outdoors in our loincloths and spearing animals and that sort of thing, we would go out in the back in the jungle or forest and dig in the dirt for underground tubers and roots and eat them. Or we might cook them, but we eat, that's how we got it. Well, no one wants to do that now, right? And where I live, ground's frozen for several months, years, so we can't do it. So how do we mimic that kind of behavior that we know primitive cultures do? We eat things like a raw white potato in a smoothie, chopped up in a smoothie, a green unripe banana, likewise chopped up in a smoothie, legumes in modest quantities. We try to stick that net carb limitation. So legumes, chickpeas, hummus, jicama, other root vegetables. So these supply the prebiotic fibers that nourish bowel flora that in turn protect you

from colon cancer, make you a healthier emotionally person, and have all kinds of other beneficial effects. Would dairy kind of fall into that category, like the lactose that's in dairy or not? No, it wouldn't be a prebiotic, you think? Not lactose, no. We do some manipulatives with yogurt to get some probiotic effects out of it, but I don't believe there's much in the way of probiotic fibers in dairy. Why do you think so many people nowadays are suffering from, I hear so many people talk about depression and anxiety. Obviously, like, there's a lot of things going on in society

that might be driving that, but do you think it has a lot to do with our food? I think it does. And the consequences of disordered diet. So, you know, when I was a kid, when we were kids, you go out in the field. I had to walk two miles to school when I was a kid. I'd walk both ways. That's right. I've heard the story. I'd walk through a field and there'd be grasshoppers everywhere. So many, they'd often hit you, right? And at night in our backyard, there'd be grasshoppers everywhere. So many, they'd often hit you, right? And at night in our backyard, there'd be fireflies filling the back, right? And there'd be butterflies all day long. Well, today,

I haven't seen a grasshopper in 40 years. I saw one firefly. That is depressing. I think I saw two butterflies all summer. So we've screwed up our external environment. We've done the same on our internal environment. And a big component of that, partly a consequence of being told to eat a bad way, is dysbiosis, disruption of bowel flora. Because I see a lot of this reverse when people get their bowel flora back in order. Which, by the way, is not the easiest thing to do. And all the rules and practices have not been fully worked out. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but you can take steps to reorder bowel flora and gain back control over health. Uh, you speak a lot differently than, uh, doctors

that my brother and I have talked to, uh, for our movie. Um, a lot of people, some of them aren't cautious. Some of them kind of have their own stance and, uh, they definitely speak their mind. I'm not afraid to speak their mind, but they're not really giving us answers. And I feel like you're giving us answers as if you actually know what the hell it is you're talking about. How do you know this stuff? How do you like, what gives you the, uh, what, what do you feel gives you the confidence, uh, to speak the way that you're speaking about carbohydrates and wheat and gluten and all these things? The science is already there. We don't have to invent it. And I can tell you, it plays out on a large international scale. So my books have sold in 40 countries, 4 million copies. So I've had a lot of people to talk with and our social media,

people give me feedback all the time, in addition to all the things I did in years past. So I can tell you this works. Hands down it works. With regards to bowel flora, the science needs to unfold. And by the way, that science is progressing very rapidly. But a lot of the practices are not trickling down to people. As you say, a lot of my colleagues are reluctant to talk about it. I'll tell you what we do. I think it's easiest to describe bowel flora as being just like a backyard garden. So if it's April or May, it's going to be a nice summer. How do you have a garden? You prepare the soil. You clean the weeds out, the stones and the twigs.

Then you plant seeds. And then you water and fertilize it all through the season. So you have nice, big, juicy zucchini and tomatoes. Same thing with bowel flora. You prepare the soil. That is, remove factors that disrupt bowel flora. Sugar, grains, don't overdo alcohol, pesticide, herbicide, residues in food, etc. GMOs with glyphosate and Bt toxin disrupt bowel flora.

So we prepare the soil, remove factors that disrupt bowel flora. Then we plant the seeds. The seeds are currently a multi-species, high-potency probiotic and fermented foods. Kimchi, kombucha, kefir, yogurts, veggies you ferment on your own. It's very inexpensive, very easy. And then the water and fertilizer for your garden, your garden of bowel flora, are the prebiotic fibers. That's what nourishes the plants, the bacteria, and gives you a nice bounty. You won't have cucumbers and zucchini, of course, but you'll have better bowel flora and better metabolic health and better emotional health also.

health and better emotional health also. You mentioned early in the podcast that you did a lot of surgeries. With your stance today and the information that you learned from dealing with many, many patients over the years, do you do the same amount of surgeries? I closed my practice a few years ago, but I can tell you what happened towards the close of that practice where I was doing all these things with my patients. And that is early in my career for the first 15 years or so, I wanted to do procedures. That's how my colleagues think. I thought that way too. My, a good day was 10 procedures.

So that was kind of your way of like, quote unquote, saving people's lives for prolonging their life in a way, right? Right. Taking to the cath lab, take images of their arteries, put stents in, atherectomy, all those procedures. Well, as I put more and more of my patients on these programs, no wheat, no grains, no sugars, vitamin D restoration, magnesium supplementation, omega-3 fatty acids supplementation from fish oil, thyroid optimization slash iodine and cultivation of bowel flow. What I saw was virtually nobody needed a procedure. Virtually nobody had angina or chest pain.

Heart attacks came to a complete grinding halt. The only times I saw any of those things become necessary were the people who didn't give a damn, who said, I'm going to smoke two packs of cigarettes no matter what you say, and I'm just going to eat anything I want because I'm 78 years old and screw you. I'm not going to change my ways. So putting aside those people who don't want to be helped, right? They just, they're happy with their Lipitor and their aspirin, their carb ethylol, et cetera. The people who want to be helped, uh, uh, stopped having heart disease. And we also regressed or reversed their heart scan scores. Um, so I, I got in conversation with you via text.

We went back and forth a little bit and then you called me and, you know, we were talking about, you know, me possibly getting like a calcium score. I believe that's what it's called, right? There's a lot of different tests that you can get done. A while back, I don't know if it was stress. Like, I don't, I don't ever feel like I'm overst. Uh, I don't know if it was stress. Like I don't, I don't ever feel like I'm overstressed, but I don't know, like being an athlete, you're always pushing yourself and you just, you ignore everything, ignore pain and you just learn to ignore all kinds of stuff. And so I guess, uh, I must've been overstressed. I was kind of having this, uh, weird, uh, sensation

on the, on the left side. And I was like, well well i don't want to take any chances with that that's not smart to ignore that that could be something serious and so you know i went i went to the doctor and got things checked out and this was a this was a a few years ago and they'd never really found anything i had had some trouble breathing but i actually think at that point it might have been something to do with like a lung or, or it may have hurt something, uh, lifting. Um, and then more recently, uh, you know, fast forward three, four years and these could be unrelated. I don't know. But again, I got pain on the left side. So I'm like, okay, what the heck is this?

And this time I was like, you know what? I'm not letting this go this time. I want to actually find out what the heck is there something really wrong, you know? And, and is it my heart? And so, um, I went to the, I just didn't even know where to, where really wrong, you know, and, and is it my heart? And so, um, I went to, I just didn't even know where to, where to start, you know? So that, that was, uh, kind of a rabbit hole to, to try to figure out how to even get into. Right. So long story short, I had, uh, an EKG and a resting EKG and a stress EKG done. And, uh, everything looked like it was, uh, it was good.

Um, and the, uh, issue that I had subsided, the symptoms subsided and everything felt fine. I started working out again and everything was good to go. So I just kind of wrote it off. I was like, I don't know, like, uh, you know, at the time I started running, I started doing some things that I wasn't used to doing. And I was like, you know, maybe it's just that, maybe it's just the extra stress of like running this business and things like that. And so I tried to quote unquote, take it easy and do some things like that. And, uh, you know, it, it, it went away, but in getting in conversation with you and, and, and trying to figure out, you know, the nutrition side of things and trying to figure out all these things, you know, it's recommended to me to go and get these other tests done. And you were like,

you know, you basically told me, Hey, you know, no way. I can't even remember the name of the test, but, uh, cardio angiogram or something like that. And you were like, absolutely not. I don't think you should get that done. Why, why were you and telling me that that may not be a great idea? Well, the evaluation of chest pain is fairly straightforward in the conventional world. And that's something you have to go through. As you point out, you can't distinguish on your own at home a developing heart attack from esophageal spasm or muscle spasm or stomach ulcer, all the other causes of pain in the chest. So that's one thing.

And the conventional evaluation of chest pain is a pretty good process. Here's the problem, though. You can go through an evaluation of chest pain, be told everything is fine, and have advanced heart disease. and have advanced heart disease because those tests aren't meant to identify heart disease so much as uh as uh to identify the cause of chest pain so what if your heart attack so let's let's say this is not from heart disease let's say it's from muscle spasm or something can you still have advanced heart disease yes well how can that be Didn't they look for heart disease before it generates symptoms? No. And that's why we talked about a heart scan or a coronary calcium score. Though I've been

doing that for 25 years, it still remains the best way to evaluate your potential for heart attack and heart disease in the future. And that score goes up 25% per year if you do nothing. And we help publish these data. If let's say your score was 500, you have a lot of plaque in your arteries and potential for heart attack. If you take Lipitor, aspirin, beta blocker, cut your fat, exercise, all those conventional things, how fast will that score increase? 25% per year. It has no effect whatsoever. And that data is very clear, by the way. It's 20 years old. It's been shown repeatedly. Yet that's the regimen the doctor puts you on, a regimen that has virtually no effect. The only effect it may have is a slight quiescence in soft

plaque. That's the only effect the statin drugs, et cetera, have. So there's very, very dubious benefits to the whole world of statins and the conventional approach to heart disease. So you want to know if you have early heart disease. And if so, you want to put a stop to it. You don't want to allow it to go the path of Tim Russert, for instance, who has totally had a heart scan score of 550 by a heart scan. And his doc said, don't worry about the stupid test. Take your Lipitor, your pre-diabetic, I want you to exercise every day on your stationary bike. And he died five years later on set, on his TV set.

If you did the math, his heart scan score at the time of death was about 1,800. We know that scores over 1,000, the risk of death or heart attack is about 10% to 15% per year. So his doctor was given a crystal ball that said, Mr. Rush will have a heart attack or death probably within five years or so. And his doctor chose to give him a regimen that had no effect whatsoever. So that's I'm advocating. Look, if you want to know about heart disease specifically, look for heart disease. But don't accept the ridiculous answers that are being offered in conventional circles.

Look for those other answers that can show you, reduce your score, and virtually obliterate your risk for cardiovascular events. Do you feel that people are giving this advice just purely to make money? There's such a focus, because I come from that world, right? There's such a focus in medicine and healthcare to generate revenue producing products and procedures. So this is the great tragedy of modern. So one of the great tragedies in heart disease is that all this focus on such things as cholesterol, which is absurd, on statin drugs, which barely do anything, and silly things like low-fat diets, the biggest tragedy there is not that we're focusing on the wrong things. We're not focusing on the right things, the things that really cause

heart disease, like grain and sugar consumption and provocation of small LDL particles, and what are called postprandial, after-eating effects of high carbohydrate diets. Vitamin D deficiency, big effect. Dysbiosis, disruption of bowel flora, big effect. Magnesium deficiency, omega-3 fatty acid deficiency. In other words, there are things you can do that dramatically reduce cardiovascular risk and even cause regression of coronary atherosclerotic plaque, but it's not on the radar of most

conventional physicians. What does somebody do? Like if they want to like just check and see if they're healthy, just, you know, so they can know they have knowledge before they have symptoms. Would the calcium score be the first place you would start? Yeah, that remains the best test. Now you have to ignore a lot of my colleagues who say it's stupid. What they're trying to say is it doesn't reflect a need for a stent or a bypass operation, but that's not the question, right? The question is. My wife called and asked, uh, that I get a calcium score done and they were like, okay, well he can get that test done.

And then also we'd like to do an MRI. And then they mentioned some other, some other things just exactly as you laid out for us when you, when you called us on the phone, they smell money. They smell a nice guy with healthcare insurance. They can jack up his costs because a heart scan, you can get for about a hundred dollars, $150, something like that. What they hope years ago, when I tried to lobby all the hospitals where I live to buy a heart scan device, when I told them we're doing this for preventive purposes, they all said, we're not interested. We're interested in the downstream revenues. If you can bring in 200 more people, 300 more people, we'd bypass every year. Now we're interested. So in other words, this is the tragedy of healthcare.

Physicians, healthcare administrators, big pharma, everybody in healthcare virtually have lost sight of the fact that healthcare is supposed to be about restoring health, not generating lots more money for healthcare insiders. But this is why we have a $3 trillion a year industry and one of the most unhealthy populations on this planet, the most obese type 2 data bag and inflamed population to ever walk this planet, costing $10,000 per person per year,

including infants and small children, and increasing every year. That's the mess we have because of the neglect of the fact no one's paying, except for people like you and me and your listeners who are actually interested in health, not in health care revenues. How much vitamin D would be, obviously it would depend on the person, but what have you seen? Like how much vitamin D is an effective dose to help somebody with their issues? Average need would be in the range of 5,000 to 6,000 units per day in an oil-based gel cup. I say that because people take tablets, which don't really work very well at all. They're very erratically absorbed or not absorbed at all. People say, but I get sun. Well, sun only works for young people because we

gradually lose the capacity to activate vitamin D in the skin as we age, much worse after age 40. So you could have a dark brown tan at age 70 and still be miserably deficient. There's also great variation, though. So not one size fits all. It's size dependent for some reason. What about just drinking milk? You'll get a lot of ergocalciferol, the synthetic form of D. Not a good way to get it. It's a low dose.

You'd have to drink a huge amount to get the doses we're talking about. And it's usually the ergocalciferol. What we're talking about is cholecalciferol. So think of vitamin D as a hormone. And we know from many other experiences that human hormones for humans is best. So if I give horse estrogens to a human female, bad things happen, right? Same thing here. So human hormone vitamin d for humans which is the cholecalciferol or d3 form now bigger people people who start overweight need more because fat oddly sequesters vitamin d so you may have to use a higher dose maybe more like 10 000 12 000 15 000 best guided by blood work by tracking blood levels of 25 hydroxyroxyvitamin D. And that person who's heavy, who does this program, loses weight, may even have to reduce D long-term. So there can be

a moving target on vitamin D. And you mentioned magnesium. Where would we start with magnesium? I've heard some people kind of say sometimes magnesium cannot be digested all that well, or can cause stomach disruption and stuff like that. Exactly right. Because we're supposed to get magnesium by drinking from the stream or river. But of course, we can't do that now, right? There's pesticide, herbicide, runoff, farm runoff, sewage, etc. But if we did, we would get a mixed forms of magnesium and we'd have it for a lifetime.

So unfortunately, we drink filtered water. Maybe you filter it in your home or the city filters it, removes all magnesium, virtually all magnesium. So that's one of the problems. I say that because everything that works big time in life serves an intrinsic human need that humans have adapted to and it's coded into their genetics. So one of our needs is magnesium and it's not being met because we filter our water. And modern produce is lacking in magnesium because of modern farming techniques. And prior grain consumption also caused you to poop out almost all the magnesium that was in your diet. That's from the phytates. That's what's happened to you, Andrew.

Every time. This guy poops nonstop. He's got like a Guinness Book of World Records. Yeah, we were just joking right before we went on. Actually, Daniel pointed it out. He's like, so you intake one gram of food, but your outtake is two grams. I'm like, yeah. This is a whole new conversation.

My outtake is double my intake. Talk about a wheat belly. Yeah. That's why I'm struggling to keep weight on. You can't keep it down. Yeah. Well, I can't keep it down. Yeah. Well, I can't keep it in. I can get it down.

Then it just doesn't stop. It just keeps going and it just falls right out. Going on forever and ever. What types of magnesium would somebody take and where do we get it from? The best magnesium beyond that you get from food, like nuts and seeds, is the one you make. So I have a recipe called magnesium water and it's a reaction between unflavored milk of magnesia which is magnesium hydroxide and carbonic acid in carbonated water so the recipe is my wheat belly blog undoctored blog undoctored book wheat belly

total health wheat belly 10 degree detox i try to make it as available as possible but you make this pardon me magnesium water and it yields so the reaction is magnesium hydroxide and carbonic acid and it yields magnesium bicarbonate not going to explode no no uh it's the most highly absorbed form of magnesium i used to use this to get people off intravenous injections of magnesium and it worked because you know know, there are people who have very serious magnesium deficiencies that are life threatening and they have to get intravenous injections every week or so. Uh, I got those people off their intravenous needs by transitioning them to this magnesium water.

You can't do that with any tablet, by the way. But if you don't like making it yourself, and by the way, that's all described how to dose it, how to amp up your dose little by little so you don't get diarrhea, because magnesium is a great laxative too. The best form is probably magnesium malate because it's highly absorbable. Magnesium citrate's a pretty good form,

but it has more of a laxative property. But some people like that laxative property. So that's a form you could use. There's several other forms, but the key is to pay attention to magnesium. And don't, if you're tracking like your RBC magnesium level, unless you're using magnesium water, it takes two years of consistent dosing, even get your RBC level up. But it reflects the profound deficiency we all start with, including in repositories of magnesium like your bones. What about sleep? Sleep's got to have a huge impact on our heart, right?

We need to get proper amount of rest. Absolutely. It's becoming clearer and clearer. The evidence is sloppy, but it suggests that sleep deprivation leads to increased potential for dementia, heart disease, type 2 diabetes, all of them cortisol-driven.

So one of the consequences of sleep deprivation is heightened cortisol, and that can lead to a lot of those problems. So yet sleep's become a very, very important issue. By the way, this crazy yogurt I keep on harping on. Tell us about that. What's going on with this yogurt? One of the effects is profound sleep. Not everybody gets it. So I was thinking about the hormone oxytocin. I don't remember why. So was I. It's so weird. I couldn't sleep last night because of it. It's like, man, I wonder about that oxytocin. I'll tell you, I'll cut to the chase. What happens,

what we're trying to do with the yogurt has nothing to do with yogurt. It's a means of amplifying bacterial counts. And it's a very specific strains of lactobacillus reuteri. And strain specificity is very important. It has to be these strains. Because we know these two strains work. We don't know the other strains yield these effects. But we make yogurt with these two strains. By the way, this is all my WheatBelly blog, undoctored blog. It's called Making L Roidari Yogurt. So you make yogurt with these two strains, and we make it in the presence of prebiotic fibers to amplify bacterial counts. We also ferment for an extended period of 36 hours so that we get very high bacterial counts, and the fermentation exhausts all the lactose,

converts the lactic acid. The more lactic acid you have, the lower the pH, more acidic the pH, and it denatures the casein beta A1. So we haven't removed all the problems with dairy, but we've minimized them. But you make this yogurt, and by the way, it's the most thick, rich, delicious yogurt you've ever had. We eat a half cup a day, and unbelievable things happen. Ladies lose their wrinkles starting within four weeks quite dramatically that's because dermal collagen increases exponentially people want to know where to order this how do i can i get an amazon skin thickness increases because we lose skin thickness as we age. If you have a wound, healing time is cut by half. Muscle increases. So in the gym, you'll notice your strength increases and you grow several pounds of muscle. The guys do. Visceral fat is lost. It accelerates

reversing insulin resistance. Some people struggle to lose weight because they have leptin resistance. The oxytocin from this yogurt circumvents leptin resistance. Some people regrow hair. Men's, this is, it's not quite clear how consistent this effect is, but many men experience a rise in testosterone,

which can be quite dramatic. And there's an increase in libido. Daytime energy increases. The effect that I get, one of the effects I get, is profound childlike sleep. I've struggled with sleep for decades, ruined by stress, practice, training, all those kinds of things where you're up all night and getting called back into the hospital. So even though I stopped doing that, it left me very sleep disrupted. The yogurt is the first time I can sleep all the way through 10 hours sometimes

and sleep like a kid. What is oxytocin? It's a hormone that was dismissed for many years as being nothing more than the hormone to cause uterine contraction at birth. That's why if your wife is pregnant, she wants to deliver on October 23rd, Monday morning, 8 a.m.,

she comes into the hospital, she gets an injection of Pitocin or Oxytocin and induces uterine contraction, cervical relaxation. But it's become clear that Oxytocin is far more than that. One of the clearest illustrations came from an animal study from MIT.

It was a rat study, and rats were given a crappy diet, like a fast food diet. Control animals given a crappy diet got old, got fat, got diabetic, lost their hair, stopped playing with each other, stopped mating with each other. Old and fat, right? Other group of mice given the same crappy diet, but also lactobacillus reuteri, stayed slender their entire lives, thick, rich fur, non-diabetic, played with each other, mated with each other. They stayed young until death. And I think that's kind of what we're seeing play out now

in humans who've been doing this. We see them reversing age effects. They're stronger. They're more vigorous. They look younger so the basic program I've seen because people reverse inflammation it's not uncommon for some look 10 or 20 years younger add this lactobacillus rhodoriate yogurt is crazy effect and it goes even farther I've had people who were 65 look like they're 30 no joke doesn't have to everybody. It varies.

And this is just in the first six months of doing this. So most people who are doing this, following my audience, my conversations, have only been doing it for a month, two, or three. Yet we're seeing these very visible effects because they're giving us all their before and after photos. So people with senile purpura, some older people get that,

those purple blotches, goes away. We had a woman who was getting radiation to her chest and passed and had her veins all very visible on her chest she was very conscious of that they disappeared within four weeks because her skin got thicker very commonly we see ladies ladies are more attentive to skin health than guys are but they'll come back and show us the wrinkles around the eyes are gone the depth of wrinkles in the cheeks are gone and they look literally 10 20 years younger what do you think's causing it you think it's just the oxytocin or is this a combination of you know maybe other things they're getting from the from the yogurt it's confidence it's the

oxytocin because if you give um animal or human oxytocin blocker, all those benefits are blocked. There's also some really cool probiotic effects of the lactobacillus reuterium. So it's not just the oxytocin. There are other means by which it's produced. This is not like a standard yogurt that you mentioned you make it yourself, right? This is not a standard yogurt that you buy at Costco or something like that. No. So those are, if they're fermented, will be fermented by other bacteria.

So we have to be very, very attentive to not just species, but also strain, which is what my favorite example is. You know, we all have E. coli in our colons. What if you're exposed lettuce from the Central Valley of California, contended by cow manure and has the pathogenic form of E. coli? Well, you can die from that. It's the same species, E. coli, different strains. So we got to pay close attention. Sadly, most probiotic, commercial probiotics don't even specify the strains, which is a big mistake. But in this case, we only know that two of the 200 species, I'm sorry, strains of lactobacillus rotori have this effect. Are probiotics effective, like standard ones that you can just get, you know, for supplements or standard ones that you get in just like regular yogurt, commercial yogurt? Yeah. You know, the rules in probiotics have not been fully sorted out, out which species, which strains, which numbers. But I think the, the conversation is heading towards several basic rules. There have to be sufficient counts. You know, we have trillions of bacteria. So taking a few hundred millions, not going to do very much.

counts. You know, we have trillions of bacteria. So taking a few hundred millions is not going to do very much. So you're better off with probably tens of billions or more. Two, one consistent marker for health has been species diversity. The healthier the person, the more diverse, the greater the number of species. The more unhealthy the person, the more constricted, limited number of species and proliferation of unhealthy species like Campylobacter or E. coli. Beyond that, we don't have a whole lot of great wisdom. We know that probiotics are helpful in certain situations like Clostridium difficile enterocolitis. That's common after an antibiotic. It's clear that probiotics are helpful. If you have H. pylori, the organism that causes stomach ulcers, duodenal ulcers, taking a probiotic provides benefit.

So we have selected instances like that. What we don't have is here's the best probiotic you can take because it has the best species that yield the greatest benefits and sufficient counts. We don't have that. Did you learn a lot about nutrition in school? Hell no. No, you have to do it on your own. So most nutrition. even a cardiologist. Well, my medical school, um, uh, training that was before cardiology training was really just more biochemistry. It was more about the biochemical pathways, those sorts of things,

but a real down and dirty kind of discussion of, of diet is virtually non-existent it's changed a little bit but it hasn't changed that much and even the young docs the newly trained ones are still pretty profoundly ignorant on topic and the the roof i think you and i would agree the reverse should be true that should have been number one yeah at the top they should be absolute experts at all issues in nutrition and then talk about taking out your gallbladder or whatever. Yeah, that's a really fascinating thing because it appears to me from just years of experience, years of being in the gym, it's just hard for me not to believe that everything has to do with exercise and nutrition. I just, I, I've kind of just thrown my hands up sometimes. I'm like, you know, they, they, all this, uh, new evidence will come out that, uh, you know, this particular diet helped cure

this particular thing. And I'm like, I don't need studies for that. I know. I feel like I've known that for 20 years, you know? That's great. It's one of the reasons why I wrote the Undoctored book is because I saw people like you and the people who work around you taking control over health and having magnificent success despite the blundering of my colleagues. So that's why I call it Undoctored. Maybe some enemies, but that's okay. Because I think if the doctor's not helping you get healthy, you know, handing you a prescription for Lipitor or scheduling your colonoscopy or your, uh, your mammogram or giving you a thiazide diuretic for blood pressure, that's not health. That's just patching things together with a drug or procedure. So real messages in health have to come through podcasts like yours, social media,

even big media has abdicated its responsibility because direct consumer drug ads dominate advertising revenue so much now that anyone with a message that's potentially antagonistic to big pharma is no longer welcome on big media and print media. So what you're doing is so critically important now because people are not going to hear about the deep, deep systemic problems in healthcare. You know, we like to lift heavy. We like to throw around some heavy weight here at my gym. What kind of impact does that have on the heart? You know, when you're trying to like push these heavy weights, is this, you it, is it a healthy endeavor? Is it, uh, is your body, you know, kind of get used to it over a period of time? I mean,

we got guys and girls in here. Uh, we had a girl, uh, yesterday, uh, deadlift, uh, Jessica, who you met earlier, she deadlifted 410 pounds for two reps. Uh, we had a guy yesterday squat 805 pounds for two reps. You know, we've got some people lifting some crazy weights in here. What kind of impact does that have on the heart? Uh, you can get hypertension. If you ever take blood pressure during those efforts, blood pressure does go up. It's usually not a problem though. Only occasionally is it a problem. It comes back down. Yeah. But it can induce changes long-term that are non-reversible. So I bet for that reason, I'm more of an advocate of high repetitions, lower weights, um, which is also an aerobic workout and you get less of that kind of, um, uh, static, uh, rise in blood pressure that sometimes can lead to issues. What about, uh, you know, things like, uh, like, like running sprints or doing, doing things where the heart

rate, you know, gets to be, uh, you know, excessively high be excessively high for a period of time versus kind of doing more like you're suggesting, something that's a little bit more steady. What's the impact that does that have? Is there something that we can do? I guess my main question is, is there something that we can do to make the heart healthier? So there's a type of exercise that we can do to make the heart healthier. Your audience may be more serious exercise than the ones I usually talk to. But I'll tell you, just for mainstream America,

the most important thing in exercise is that you do something fun and something you enjoy and something you want to come back to. So you can repeat it, right? So you jump out of bed on Wednesday morning and say, hooray, today's Wednesday, I get to samba or whatever. In other words, for mainstream people, just getting to do something that's engaging and say, hooray, today's Wednesday, I get to samba or whatever. Yeah. In other words, for mainstream people. I agree. Just getting to do something that's engaging and fun.

That's the key. And then we have secondary goals. How high should your heart rate be? Should it involve an aerobic burst? Should we do high intensity intervals? All that kind of stuff becomes a little more secondary, but I think there's benefit to all those things. Right.

Yeah, there is. But as you and I would agree on this, that strength training should be a very critical component of everybody's exercise routine. Yeah. I've always thought that, you know, I used to kind of be, uh, you know, of the belief like, oh, you know, you can kind of do what, do what you like to do. But now I, you know, fully realized that, uh, everyone needs to specifically have some sort of resistance training because you need the muscle mass and you just need it. Absolutely. I mean, not everyone has to be have some sort of resistance training because you need

the muscle mass. You just need it. I mean, not everyone has to be like huge or anything, but you do need some muscle mass. You need that to help with your blood sugar. And just, I mean, there's so many benefits to it. Absolutely. In fact, I would say that muscle mass is a marker of youthfulness. It's a biomarker of health and youthfulness.

And as you know, as we age, we lose about 35, 40% of muscle mass. And if you yo-yo dieted as much as 50% of your muscle mass. In other words, we have far less strength, agility, flexibility, and degradation of such things as insulin sensitivity and growth hormone when we lose muscle mass. So returning to more youthful muscle is a really healthy practice and protects you from falls, protects you from osteoporosis, protects you from injury should you fall. As you were going through, you know, being a doctor and having this practice and you spend all these years on education and education and everything. And, um, you know, you're learning more and learning more, but then you're starting to kind of uncover that maybe it, the whole story is something different than you thought. Was there a period of time where you were kind of frustrated and pissed off? Like, man, I, I kind of thought I was signing up for

one thing and it doesn't really turn out to be what I wanted it to be. It happened many times over many years. I might put a lot of, I grew up as a poor kid and I put myself through 17 years of education and training to find out that what I did was corrupt, that it didn't yield health, that it was targeted. It was aimed mainly to generate revenues and hospitals would encourage you to do that by the way. So hospitals love heart procedures because they drive about 50% of all hospital revenues. So they want, you don't hear it this way, but you'll hear it behind closed doors. They want more heart attacks. They want more heart failure. They want more bypass operations. They want more cardiac cath procedures. To me,

this is like saying the campaign in Afghanistan is a huge success, 10,000 Americans dead. That's not a measure of success, right? That'd be a horrible tragedy. But you'll hear hospitals, my colleagues say things like, we only did 1,800 bypass operations last year. We need to increase it and we're shooting for 18% increase. Wow. That's not health, right? That's failure of prevention for a very preventable disease. But it's also emblematic of a kind of thinking that goes into healthcare nowadays. That's why I say the doctor is not your friend. Sadly, often the doctor is your enemy, but it's so important for your listeners and people interested in real and

genuine health to pay attention to these kinds of conversations because they're not going to get it from the doctor. How important is, is it for you to practice what you preach? I think it's pretty damn important. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I try to do all these things also. Right. To get people to, you know, you're, you're given in this advice and you're telling people, you know, this, this is the way, this is what I've seen. This is how it works. And yeah, I've, I'm a huge believer that if you're not doing, if you're not doing it, you don't have a leg to stand on. Right. I left my Marlboros in the other room. Is it, um, is it, is it hard for you? You've been doing, uh, I'm sure you've been

following your own diet for a long period of time. Do you deviate from it at all? Do you have a piece of cake? Do you have a donut here and there? This is true for most people who are grain-free specifically. If they have a re-exposure, whether it's intentional or inadvertent, you have a bad reaction. Most common is diarrhea, bloating, gas, joint pain, skin rash uh depression suicidal thoughts a return of whatever problem that went away if you had if you were relieved from migraine headaches or plantar fasciitis or joint pain or seborrhea or psoriasis or eczema uh or rheumatoid arthritis it can come back

and especially autoimmune conditions like rheumatoid arthritis, it can come back. And especially autoimmune conditions like rheumatoid arthritis, if they come back, they last for months. You can come back even just from like one, one, uh, one sandwich, one bagel. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Wow. So re-expose. So then you're, you're just like, you know what? Screw it, man. It's not worth it. Right. If that comes back to you, right? Like that, then you're probably like, I'm not doing that again. Right. That's exactly what happened. So in a lot of ways, people stay on this program for a long period because they know if they have an exposure, they'll get quite sick. There's also an effect I call tongue in cheek. I call it, I ate one cookie and gained 30 pounds. You of course don't gain 30 pounds from one cookie. What happens is people do this. They're doing great on the lifestyle.

They're grain-free. And they're at an office party and they're serving hors d'oeuvres or it's a cookie or something. Girl Scout cookie, whatever. And they say, you know, I have one. I'll be better tomorrow. I'll exercise an extra 30 minutes, whatever. But once they get re-exposed to the gliadin-derived opioid peptides, they can't turn it off. I've seen this happen after people gain

20, 30 pounds in a month, 50 pounds in three months. And it's a real effect. And they finally get a hold of themselves, but it's very difficult to turn off once you reignite that process. What are your thoughts about, you know, a lot of products have been made because, you know, people have learned about gluten. And so then they started kind of making, you know, gluten-free products, you know, and make this gluten-free, this, you know, gluten-free, like, for example, like even like Fruity Pebbles that says gluten-free on it. You know, what are your thoughts on the gluten-free movement? And are these things, are they beneficial to us?

Are they healthy? free movement. And are these things, are they beneficial to us? Are they healthy? They're absolute garbage because they're made with cornstarch, rice flour, tapioca starch, potato flour. So very few foods... So replacing one thing in junk with another. Yes. So very few foods raise blood sugar higher than wheat products like whole wheat bread. There's a very short list of foods that raise blood sugar even higher. That would be cornstarch, rice flour, potato starch, tapioca starch. In other words, the gluten-free foods are extravagantly effective at sending blood sugar sky high, causing insulin resistance, causing visceral fat, inflammatory fat growth, causing

weight gain, adding to risk for dementia heart disease cancer in other words they're horrible yet people think they're good because they don't have gluten in them so that's a very very bad way to think you can be gluten-free just don't rely on gluten-free processed foods made with those four primary ingredients yeah i mean it mean, it'd be tricky, you know, like, uh, you, you learn that you have a gluten intolerance and then you're like, okay, well, you know, that, that kind of fits into my diet because it says it doesn't have gluten in it. So you're thinking like that you're doing something good for yourself. You think you're kind of buying into this diet by getting some of these snacks and think you're thinking, oh, I'm going to make, uh, things more convenient of these snacks and and you're thinking oh i'm going to

make uh things more convenient for myself but really you're just still adding to adding to the problem right exactly right the grain industry is a lot in a lot of ways a lot like the tobacco industry so when i went against the uh the grain industry they they hired pr agencies to go on the attack against me but they backed down when they realized they're also the gluten-free industry. And they could hire PR people to write articles about how gluten-free is wonderful and then sell gluten-free foods. So just like tobacco, they're very good at muddying the waters and kind of confusing people. That's part of the reason why there's so many people who think,

oh, I did weak belly and I went gluten-free. I gained 30 pounds. It doesn't work. Well, they didn't pay attention, right? You can be gluten-free. Just don't eat gluten-free processed foods. Are there some people that attack you in a way where they'll say, oh, he's talking about how the medical community makes all this money, but then he's selling all these books.

What kind of people saying stuff like that? You got to get your message out somehow. I suppose I wear a placard and stand in front of Best Buy, but that wouldn't work too well. Right. Anyway, Andrew, you got a couple of questions to shoot at him here. I'm sure you got full of them over there. Yeah, actually. And I'll just start off with like a, like a super personal one.

Um, uh, if you can use your imagination, I'm 33 years old right now, but let's, uh, let's pretend I'm double my age. I am four years removed from triple heart bypass surgery. Uh, what I'm getting at is I'm pretending on my dad right now. He's still currently taking 80 milligrams of atorvastatin and 325 milligrams of aspirin daily. Can you consult me on what, like the dangers of that and what I should be doing right now? Sure, Andrew. So like we said before, the great tragedy that's happening to your dad is no one paid attention to the real causes. They're paying attention to these trivial causes like high cholesterol, the atorvastatin, which is Lipitor. So we know if we were tracking your dad's heart scan score as a reflection of how much atherosclerotic plaque he has, we know it

have no effect at all, zero effect. So what they're doing is virtually nothing. The aspirin does reduce heart attack risk a little bit at a price though. It's not a good thing for you, but that's all they've done. So all your dad has done essentially is take a drug that prevents blood clotting slightly, aspirin, and atorvacet, which has a very teensy weensy effect on subduing the rupture of soft plaque. That's all he's doing. But what about all the other causes that are not being addressed? The excess of small oxidation-prone LVL particles.

The postprandial, after-meal distortions of lipoproteins. Lack of fish oil, omega-3 fatty acids. Lack of vitamin D. Thyroid problems. Dysbiosis. And that's just the basic list. There's more things you can do. So in other words, my colleagues pay attention.

They do the most minimal things. So what his doctor has done is essentially nothing and said, just go with the wind. We'll see what happens to you when you develop symptoms or have a heart attack. Then we'll take care of it with the real solution, which is a bypass or numerous stents or something like that. The truth is, Andrew, is heart disease is easy to identify and easy stop or reverse, but you can't do it with Lipitor. You can't do it with aspirin. Yeah. Because they had said he just naturally developed a lot of cholesterol and that's what was blocking everything.

So at that time, they said the only way to fix this is they had tried the stents, but it did nothing because I guess they were so clogged. And so they did triple heart bypass and he's been on these statins and doing this podcast. I'm learning so much about everything and you know like oh wait shit dad what are you taking again like i just text my mom i'm like hey can you tell me exactly what he's taking and he's still taking these statins and so i'm like i i need somebody with a lot more knowledge than just listening to people to tell him what he should be doing and so if he were to stop taking them would anything happen happen like bad? Well, with stents present, Andrew changes this picture. He needs to be on aspirin because he has stents now. So it's

a very artificial situation. They were just going to attempt the stents and it didn't work. So they're no longer present. At this point. Correct. They did a bypass. Okay. Because he has bypass grafts, he needs to take the aspirin. So it's an unnatural situation, right? You and I should not take aspirin. Aspirin does nothing in the vast majority of us. But in your dad's situation where he has vein grafts, he needs to take the aspirin. But it should become as no surprise that his disease has progressed because nothing has been done to stop it. So if the rust on your rear fender started and all you did was look at it, it. So if the rust on your rear fender started and all you did was look at it, it's going to get worse, right? Same thing here. If nothing was done to stop the progression of the disease,

the disease will progress. So all the things I'm talking about that I might call the undoctored program or the wheat belly total health program, this all came from efforts to reverse coronary disease. Now the problem with your guy like your dad is he's starting so far into the process. So he would have to do this with absolute meticulous attention to all detail and probably add on some things like intermittent fasting,

which is a very powerful tool for controlling heart disease and even reversing symptoms. He may want to do our- Why is that? Not clear exactly why, but probably because you're restoring, you're more rapidly restoring insulin sensitivity,

including that driven by fatty liver and liver insulin resistance. So the mechanism isn't entirely clear. It's also a very rapid way to reverse something called endothelial dysfunction, which means the arteries abnormal potential to constrict. So intermittent fasting. Well, so, so the basic program, just getting the basic program is spectacularly effective,

meaning no wheat, no grains, no sugars, right? Net carb limitation, fish at a therapeutic dose, which I would define as 3,600 milligrams EPA DHA per day, vitamin D restoration to a 25 hydroxy vitamin D level of 60 to 70 nanograms per milliliter, magnesium supplementation, preferably magnesium water, much more rapid, much more effective, iodine supplementation, and thyroid optimization. Because thyroid dysfunction is rampant for a variety of reasons. About 35% of Americans now have thyroid dysfunction, and that acts as a cardiovascular risk factor. It can accelerate growth of plaque. And then lastly, all the efforts we take to cultivate healthy bowel flora.

A high-potency, multi-species probiotic, enthusiastic consumption of fermented foods and prebiotic fibers, 20 grams per day. That's kind of the starting program. And you could add things on. The oxytocin- So that's kind of the starting program. Yeah, yeah. And he could add things on. The oxytocin boosting effect of the yogurt, huge effect. It'll help him intermittently fast. MCT oils that help him, he can put in his coffee. I use MCT oil powder with a little collagen hydrolysates

and makes it beautiful, delicious coffee creamer. Taster than cream, by the way. Nice. Add a few drops of stevia, and that will help turn off his appetite it'll assist him in in in a bit in a bit in the fasting so that's kind of a landscape of things he could do but as you can see there are people who say screw it i'm gonna take lipidor right so we have to have people engaged it'd be a lot nicer doing this 20 years

ago yeah it means you know you got like you years ago. Yeah. It means, you know, a guy like you can start now. Yeah. Cause yeah. Right. And, you know, I don't know if it's a hereditary thing or something that I'm going to have to think about, you know, pretty soon here and whatnot, but the, the, the issue is, you know, the, the miseducation that, you know, like I said, he's, I think he's 66. I should probably off on that, but he's had, you know, a lifetime of doctors telling him what he should do and should not do. And then right now they're just grilling him. No, you need to take these things, you know, you need to follow this protocol or else it's going to get worse.

All right. Starting to appreciate the enormity of the blundering that goes on in healthcare. Yeah. We give you a diet, low fat, low saturated fat, healthy whole grains. Yeah. That causes diabetes, insulin resistance, and heart disease. And then we come to your rescue with drugs that barely do anything and procedures. It's the mechanic telling you, Andrew, don't bother changing the oil in your car.

You don't really need to do that. Just come to me at 50,000 miles when your engine seizes and we'll put in a new engine. That's a great analogy because that's exactly what it's, yeah. They've created the market. Yeah. And then when I'm sitting there yelling at them and because like they're using like, you know, fake butter or whatever, I was like, no,

no, no, no. Like use this real stuff and this is actually good for you. Like have fat. It's okay. Yeah. Oh no, no, no, no, no. We can't do that.

Well, it can become problematic though you know if if people if people are mixing messages that could also be dangerous you know if you're if you are um like the the doctor the doctor has given you these band-aids because you have some cuts you know it's not fixing it it's not healing anything, but they're, they're giving you these band-aids to just, you know, kind of cover up these cuts that you have. And I think that a lot of times what happens is people start to get mixed messages and they're not sure, like, like if I, if I go increase the fat, but I'm not making these other changes to my diet, like increasing your fat, but still leaving the wheat and the other things in there. Well, now we're causing even a bit, a bigger problem. So

it's like, you got to kind of pick and choose, you know, what, what are you going to follow? And then you got to really try to, you know, stick to that, uh, regimen, but it's, it's amazing to me. And it's, it's really frustrating to see that we end up in this position because it seems, it can sound complicated. You can rattle off all kinds of different names of, of different saccharides and different things that are, but it's really just, it's just eat healthy, which has been a very normal thing for a long time. I realized the grains are problematic. a very normal thing for a long time. I realized the grains are problematic, but people have been talking about meat, vegetables, and fruits for, uh, forever, you know, I mean, and people have been eating them forever and have been having success with them forever. Um, so it's just, it's mind boggling, but then you get in this position where

you're sick, your heart hurts, or you're, you're in pain, you have a heart attack and you go to the doctor and you're not in no position at that point to feel great about the assumptions you may have towards nutrition. And you're relying on this guy to pull you through and you're like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to give you my life, you know, and I need your help. And you give me the advice or give me the drugs. And now I should be off and I'm back with my family hanging out. Well, this is why efforts like your podcast are so critically important. It's a chance for people to hear these ideas, talk about them, share them with other people, think about it. Because it's not coming from the doctor.

The doctor will hand you a prescription for Lipitor and a thiazide diuretic. It's not giving you health. So if they're not doing their job, that's what we're trying to do. And granted, not all the answers are worked out. I can tell you, I think if your listeners don't come away with anything else but this,

people have enormous power over their health, but it won't come from the silly attitudes and beliefs of your doctor. It's got to come from what you're doing, what others are doing. But it's a great reflection of the power of crowd wisdom that we put our heads together to answer these questions. And you know what? The answers are coming. I was a type 2 diabetic 25 years ago. I'm'm not anymore i've helped countless type 2 diabetics become non-diabetic it's easy as hell it's easy to reverse heart disease it's easy but it would also be easy for you to be a type 2 diabetic again right it would be yeah like it would take it probably just take a few months or even a few weeks. Right. Yeah. Right. But in Andrew's case of his dad, if let's say he was to follow everything, I mean, I

know everybody's different, but he's follow everything to a T, uh, I think he would see drastic results, uh, very quickly. Right. If he could commit the resources and the, and yeah, if he, if he does it, that's the key, but I've, I've seen people do it. I've seen, but you have to really stick to the program at this point in his life where he's been down the bypass, failed stent, all that kind of stuff. Would a calcium score be wise for somebody like that? That's already kind of up against it.

It becomes very difficult because the bypass distorts the anatomy and there's also metal in the chest. and there's also metal in the chest. You can do it, but you have to have somebody reading the scan who really knows what they're doing because there's so many changes introduced in the heart anatomy after a bypass. Yeah, and chances of that happening is probably slim to none right now just because of the doctors that he has been seeing. I don't know where he's, like, the last checkup and whatnot, but, I mean, he's been fine.

You know, he's healthy. He's still running all around the place. But it's just, it's just something that's like always heavy on my mind. Cause I'm like, I keep hearing that these are, this is not the right pathway that we should be following, but, um, we'll see. I'm, I'm hoping I can send this to him and, you know, help him. Has he, uh, shown interest in like, you know, making changes to his nutrition before? I can tell you that the week after he got off that hospital bed, he was all for it. Okay.

Yeah. But now it's been a couple of years removed from that and he's been fine. No, you know, no scares or anything like that. And so now he's like, ah, maybe I'm okay now. Right. Maybe it is working. Right. So, you know, I don't know.

Hopefully, like I said, I can change his mind just in general. Like, you know, just my parents, both of them, they're like, I guess, baby boomers. I don't know if that's correct, but they're, uh, you know, yeah, they, they're really, um, they stick to their ways. My dad, who's, uh, you know, in the room right now, he, he's pointed out to me before I've asked him before, um, we've had a, you know, uh, a few family a few family members uh you know who've gotten sick and even lost some and i kind of asked them like what like why like why why you know why would somebody who you know kind of knows that they're not healthy why would they just continue down that path and he just said because it's easier and that's true right like it's pretty simple it's

easier just it now it doesn't sound like it'd be easier because it doesn't make any sense really like to be in pain and to and to have suffering but it is like change is very scary for people and they think man like you're like you know they they just can't they can't figure out what their life would look like like how do I go to the movies? How do I, uh, you know, enjoy every Friday night when that favorite TV show comes on? Uh, uh, what about Thanksgiving? And what about Christmas? Like, these are my favorite things every year.

And I, I gotta eat the stuffing. Yeah. I mean, I just. You can't tell me I can't eat the stuffing. Yeah. I just got a question right now. It's like, so what do we eat? Just meat and carbs from vegetables?

Like, is that it? So the crucial step is no grains. So grains cause heart disease. You wouldn't know that, though, by looking at something really stupid like cholesterol testing. You want to look at what's called advanced lipoprotein testing, like NMR. There are a variety of techniques. I've done mostly NMR. There's a variety of techniques. I've done mostly NMR. There's a San Francisco company that does a different sort.

They do an electrophoretic method. But NMR is easy and expensive, and it gives you a ton of information. But you'll see right away that heart disease is a dietary disease amplified by various nutritional deficiencies. It becomes very obvious once you get beyond cholesterol testing. Was there heart attacks before grains were around? There were, but they were uncommon. We don't know how far back that goes because there's no fossil record,

there's no bony record of heart disease. We do know, though, that with consumption of grains, there was an explosion in aortic disease, though. That we do know. But there that with consumption of grains, there was an explosion in aortic disease, though. That we do know. But there's no preservation of coronary arteries. I should mention to you what happened to the first humans who ate traditional strains of grains. Because people often say, well, this wheat belly, but guys, it's modern wheat. It's the problem. Let's go back to heirloom or traditional. What happened to those first humans who consumed wild einkorn wheat? There was an explosion in tooth decay.

Very interesting. Before humans ate grains, only 1% to 3% of all teeth recovered showed decay or tooth loss or abscess or misalignment. When grains were added, whether it was wheat or millet in sub-Saharan Africa or maize in Central America or rice in Southeast Asia, there was an explosion in tooth decay. 16 to 49% of all teeth showed decay, abscess, or misalignment. There was a doubling of knee arthritis, and there was an appearance of nutritional deficiencies because you can see that in the bony evidence, like something called cribrorbitalis, which is evidence for iron deficiency.

In other words, even consumption of ancient grains caused an explosion of health problems. So what we did was we traded near-term survival, because it is a source of carbohydrate calories, we traded near-term survival for long-term health. But now it's become obvious because our own U.S. dietary guidelines for Americans told us to pack our diets full of grains breakfast lunch dinner and every snack should contain a grain they say and when you do that you and agribusiness change grains now it became patently obvious that grains are an enormous problem and so if you're gonna start on diet that's like the basic starting place and then

secondarily limit your net carb exposure because like we talked about so many diabetics and pre-diabetics in the world now with insulin resistance. And then never limit fat. Eat more fat. Eat, eat. You know, fats are very satiating, right? Right. If you have a, if you have a ribeye steak with fat in it, it's very filling.

Delicious. Yeah. And it's delicious. Have eggs. Eat the stinking yolk for God's sake. Have butter. If you're going to have dairy, you know, dairy is a whole conversation of its own. But if you have dairy, the most benign component of dairy is the fat.

You got to be nuts to be drinking skim or low fat milk or low fat dairy. Get the full fat. Cream, half and half, butter, right? Because the fat's the healthiest component. The problem with dairy, it's the other things. It's casein beta A1. It's lactate. It's other issues. After that, lots of vegetables. The prebiotic fibers are very important. Now, I don't think we have time to go into this, but there's something to be aware of. If your readers or your dad, Andrew, adds prebiotic fibers to his regimen, whether it's legumes or a raw white potato in a smoothie or inulin powder or another form, and he gets

sick from them, he gets diarrhea, bloating, and abdominal discomfort, then you know he has small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or SIBO, which is incredibly common. I would estimate that SIBO is on a par with type 2 diabetes and prediabetes in the US. The CDC now estimates that over a hundred million Americans have prediabetes or type 2 diabetes, huge number. I think the number of people with SIBO is at least that big because I'm seeing it everywhere. And I was guilty of underestimating how common SIBO is. What's SIBO? So it's small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, meaning bacteria is supposed to be largely confined to the colon, the large bowel. But in this instance,

they have ascended through the ileum, jejunum, duodenum, and into the stomach. So you essentially have 30 feet of infection with unhealthy organisms in the enterobacteria ACE family. Can this potentially lead to cancer? It can lead to colon cancer, diverticular disease. It's often diagnosed as fibromyalgia. Fibromyalgia is essentially SIBO, and SIBO is essentially fibromyalgia. The gastroenterologists are thinking of doing away with the irritable bowel syndrome designation and calling it by its real name SIBO.

Restless leg syndrome is SIBO. People with type two diabetes, type one diabetes as well, and autoimmune diseases, a large number of them have SIBO. So it's add all those numbers up. We're talking about at least 60 million Americans with SIBO, probably north of a hundred million. What about things that affect the brain? Are they connected to this? Yes. Now it's becoming clear. Parkinsonism, Lou Gehrig's disease, a lot of the central nervous system disorders, dementia, Alzheimer's, or at least in part dysbiosis. Your stomach is like your second brain. Some people even call it your first brain. So it's becoming clear, but it's also reflecting the absolute power of the bowel flora over human health.

Now, I won't pretend that we have all the answers because that science is unfolding very rapidly. But like the oxytocin boosting effect of our yogurt is an extremely powerful, potent effect. But we need more answers like that. I think what we'll be saying in just a few years is if you have Parkinsonism, this is what you do. You populate with this group of species. We know, for instance, that kids who have intractable seizures and thereby benefit from ketogenic diets, they'll have all those problems. The responsible agent for that relief from seizures is the growth in the acromancy of bacterial species and some others. In other words, it's going to be possible to treat your seizures with a probiotic and have it to be more effective

than seizure drugs. And we're going to see more things like that. So the same thing is likely to happen with Parkinson's and Lou Gehrig's disease and a lot of those other conditions. Dementia. There is one trial now in dementia where a high-potency, multi-species probiotic actually improved cognition and reversed dementia partially. What do we do with our kids?

What about, how do we make them a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and stuff like that? What do you do with children? Follow the same rules? It depends on the age. If you can start them young,

you'll be shocked at the health of your children. They won't get sick. They won't be getting the flu. I mean, all this really cool stuff happens. What if you have a seven, eight year old or even worse, 14 year old who won't change? I think all you can do is educate your kids and they'll still have pizza at the pizza party and they'll still have pizza at the birthday party. I cook for them. Perfect. There you at the birthday party. I cook for them.

Perfect. There you go. Problem solved. I cook for them every morning and they have, you know, bacon and eggs and butter and cheese. And, you know, I try to mix it up a little bit so they're not, so I try not to be too crazy about it. So every once in a while they make it like a piece of toast or something like that. They may get some milk with their food or whatever, or even some like orange juice. But I try to, uh, best I can to have it be, you know, at least 90%, you know, healthy.

And, uh, and then at, at dinnertime, my wife usually cooks and, um, that's always, uh, kind of following some of the same rules as well. That's a great way to do it. Now they'll go to college or move away and start doing bad things for a while. But then every time I go out to eat my son, you know, he orders a Coke and he does kind of his own thing. And I, you know, give him an evil look. And I always tell him, I say, you kind of do your own thing. You're old enough.

You know, I trust you. You're responsible enough. But when a waiter comes back and wants to pour more, you know, please tell them, you know, at least tell them you don't want any more because they'll just keep, you know, refilling it. Right. But what people don't realize about these things is, um, that's not like an innocent thing. That's not an innocent thing that should go unnoticed. And if you're knowledgeable enough and you know these things, well, shit, you got to protect your children, right? To me, it's not any different than watching your kid cross the street when the don't walk sign is up and you don't stop them.

Like, I got to stop them. You know, I, I, I'm going to allow him to have some wiggle room to be his own person, to be his own man and those kinds of things. Cause it's important that he learns to make his own decisions. And sometimes he makes his own decisions and he goes, oh shit, maybe my dad was right. Or maybe my mom was right. You know, it's important to, to fall and stumble on your own a little bit, but at the same time, I'm like, I'm not going to watch this happen in front of me. I think that's the best way to do it. And you're setting the example of health. Right. And at some, even if he veers off for a while in college or whatever,

I they'll come back and say, Hey, you know, mom and dad this way, I should do that too. Right. Yeah. We're, we're, it's a, it's a constant, uh, battle, but my kids, what I've learned is they actually don't care. So like, uh,

you know, the kids will ask for ice cream. I'll say no ice cream tonight. And I'll go, okay. They really don't care that much. I mean, but it's,

it's because we've reinforced this over a period of time, you know, um, the harder thing is to try to get them away from their phone sometimes. And they're like, well, you're on your phone. And I'm like, at least with the food I can, you know, they can, they're not going to be able to point to too many times where they saw me like down a giant bowl of ice cream or something. Yeah. I should mention that, you know, if you guys and families are doing these kinds of things. So I learned this long ago that people would do

the lifestyle and have magnificent results, lose 70 pounds, become non-diabetic, blah, blah, blah. And they'd come back after Thanksgiving and they went back to all the old habits. They come back 14 pounds heavier. Their blood works a disaster, small elders through the roof, they're diabetic again. So what I did was I became clear that well i'd like to say just eat good real food and ended that it was more practical to say here's how you recreate healthy gravy here's how to make healthy stuffing here's how to make a healthy pizza here's how to eat make ice cream so that you can so healthy eat all you want without worrying about portion size so one of the things i also try to help people do is find ways to convert unhealthy foods

and recreate them. Options. Yeah. In healthy ways. And you can, by the way. Empower them, give them the right tools to succeed. But you will have to make these foods for the most part. Gotcha.

We had a in-studio question. From one of our fans? Yeah, I think so. think so i think my mom and dad and in studio here today yeah so after she asked if you can like reiterate so people can hear it go ahead did you want to read yeah yeah so basically my mom is asking uh you know whether you know so sometimes things sometimes people die of a heart attack at 20 years old and maybe it's not nutrition. Like we've heard these stories time and time again. They're like, I don't get it.

He was a really active kid. He was a swimmer. He did all these things and bam, something happened and he, and he went. And so my mom is kind of asking the question of sometimes it's like electrical, like an electrical thing. As she pointed out, she used to work for a cardiologist and that's the way this cardiologist kind of put it. Sometimes an electrical problem, which would be the case of this 20 year old kid passing, or sometimes it's just like a plumbing problem, which is something that built up over the course of you stuffing that toilet paper down the drain for way too long. And at 20, 30 years later,

then you have heart disease. So this lifestyle can affect both those things, the plumbing as well as the electrical system. So the plumbing would be coronary disease. Now your 20 year old who dies probably did not have either of those things. That's probably a hypertrophic cardiomyopathy or some other cause that's congenital. So that's getting kind of off a whole different area. But when I say plumbing, it's pretty much coronary disease like Andrew's talking about with his dad the electrical problems that is the variety of heart rhythm disorders and instability that can there are so a very common causes is a magnesium deficiency as you probably remember he would be hospitalized with torsades and

ventricular tachycardia. Those are not entirely, but largely magnesium deficiencies and potassium also. So there's an effect. Omega-3 fatty acids that we supplement are rhythm stabilizing also. Dysbiosis can contribute to electrical problems. Now, one of the problems though, with some wiring problems like atrial fibrillation is that it's the end result of decades of abuse of your heart's conduction system, high blood sugars, vitamin D deficiency, lack of omega-3 fatty acids, et cetera. So when it shows itself as rapid bursts of heart rate, of chaotic heart rate, atrial fibrillation, you've lost control of the nutritional part of it. So that's

why I tell people, if you're going to do this, do it yesterday. Start yesterday because you don't want irreversible problems. If you had autoimmune pancreatitis or autoimmune hepatitis or Hashimoto's thyroiditis or atrial fibrillation, they become largely irreversible at that point. So the key is to do like what andrew's doing he recognizes the risk in him because his dad has it so andrew's goal in life among his goals in life is to never allow himself to have coronary disease but not by doing something silly but like taking lipitor and aspirin my mom's kind of i guess uh saying that a lot of the people that had some of these problems had type 2 diabetes as well.

Type 2 diabetes and coronary disease, that is potential for heart attacks, bypass it, are essentially, they overlap incredibly. So it's a little uncommon to have coronary disease without diabetes. So as you see, insulin resistance that leads to diabetes is rampant. It's what's driving the growth of dementia. It drives cancer risk, drives heart disease risk, and of course, diabetes. And so it's pretty bad. But here's, and was largely caused, or at least markedly worsened by conventional dietary advice. The people we thought were doing us favors were doing nothing

of the sort. They were causing the worldwide epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes and autoimmune diseases. So we just can't let these people get away with this anymore. And yet they're not going to undo this because so much of the dietary message is influenced by industry. So when the USDA guidelines come up for debate, they open it up to their credit. They open up the conversation to the public. But people like us have jobs. We have things to do. We have families to attend to. But the big companies will put their lobbyists and employees and sit there day after day lobbying the U.S. government to change dietary guidelines in their favor. the U.S. government to change dietary guidelines in their favor.

So you won't, you'll never hear messages like this from dietary guidelines because it's too heavily industry influenced. That's why podcasts like this are so important. Yeah, that's, yeah, the food pyramid and stuff like that. We've had a lot of like misguided advice over the years. You know, people have, I run into a lot of people that, that kind of, uh, you know, tell me that, uh, they have, you know, uh, hereditary, um, history of, uh, heart disease in the family and stuff like that, or, um, and, and maybe, you know, later in life, they end up with kind of a regular heartbeat or, um, I hear people use term AFib,

which I don't even really know what that means, but, um, sometimes these things happen and the heart rate races and then they're off to the hospital and trying to get, again, it's like in a panic, you don't know what to do and you're kind of turning your life over to the doctor and, uh, they are giving you a cholesterol medication. Um, they're,'re you know they're doing all kinds of stuff but but really what you're saying is like let's not um the the problem you know probably didn't happen from just a cholesterol issue although it could be potentially from the little uh cholesterol right the ldl right it could potentially be from that, but it's probably from a series of things that have happened over a period of time, along with

stress that happens during the day, poor dietary choices, poor sleep. It's, it's, these things have kind of manifested themselves into the current situation that you're in. And if you follow a lot of the advice that you're recommending, you can quickly turn a lot of these things around. You can, but it remains key that you do this early enough in life before you develop things like AFib or other not so easy to reverse or influence problems. Is there, is there medication that can, that can kind of help or, or, you know, we're talking about cholesterol medication, but is there medication for the heart that can help somebody, like that they may actually need? Yeah, there are, though I'm a critic of big pharma and the practice of healthcare,

there are drugs that actually do their job. But I will tell you that the list of drugs that do their job without harmful effects is very small. So beta blockers, for instance, are very, very commonly prescribed. Those are blockers of adrenaline and they're prescribed in high blood pressure. They're prescribed in people with coronary risk because it reduces sudden cardiac death a little bit. It's also used in certain forms of heart rhythm disorders. It's used in what are called cardiomyopathies and heart failure. And they do help. The problem is they also help make you diabetic and cause you to gain weight and raise your triglycerides and increase your small LDL.

So this is typical of health care. We give you a drug that does one thing and generates a whole range of other problems. But we have other drugs for those problems, don't we? That's right. And when it comes to blood pressure medication, a lot of them are things that dehydrate us, right? Yeah. You know, I laugh at that. It's sad, but I laugh at it. So we're told hydrate for us, right? Yeah. You know, I always, I laugh at that. It's sad, but I laugh

at it. So we're told hydrate for health, right? It keeps your blood from coagulating. It keeps you alert, et cetera. Yet they give you diuretics for high blood pressure, like a thiazide, like chlorothalidone or hydrochlorothiazide that caused you to be dehydrated, raises your triglycerides, provokes formation of small LDL, increases potential for type 2 diabetes by 30%, and is associated with occasional sudden cardiac death. How is that even something that's prescribed? I mean, how is somebody getting away with giving you a diuretic? I mean, people are taking these on a daily basis, right? Yeah. And because there are large clinical trials that show it's a cheap, easy way

to reduce blood pressure. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's mind-boggling. I mean, the amount of... I think it's criminal. Yeah, it really is. I mean, the amount of negative effects

it has on your body to just be dehydrated. Right. Makes no sense, right? And it's so immediate, too. Makes no sense. Like Lipitor and these other things, like it might take a little while for them to, uh, do their damage, but, uh, be dehydrated

for two days and things get miserable really quick. It's the logic of medicine. Patch one hole, fix the three new holes you made. That's how medicine works. How have you stumbled upon all this, uh, all this knowledge? Has it been through studies or people you've run into over the years? How have you, because you had to educate yourself on top of you working all these hours as a doctor? Well, it was a lot of the same reasons I wrote the Undoctor book. What I saw is people taking the reins of personal health and having absolutely jaw-dropping, spectacular results. For someone to say to their doctor, hey, I don't want to be a diabetic anymore. He says, shut up, take your insulin, take your biota injections, and take your metformin,

and make sure you cut your saturated fat and eat more healthy whole grains. He just gave you more diabetes. He gave you higher. But that same person does these basic things in health and they come back off insulin, off bieta, off metformin and slender and healthy. It showed me just how powerful people can be in their own personal health, but it won't come from the doctor. In fact, people succeeded despite the bungling of the doctor. And's what I'm see playing out now I'm generalizing. Of course. There are good doctors. There are functional medicine iterative health docs They're doing the right thing or at least trying to I'm talking mostly about the mainstream doctors who see you in the hospital Who see in the office check your blood pressure all those conventional things?

These are the people who've lost sight of what they're supposed to be doing things. These are the people who've lost sight of what they're supposed to be doing. You had another in-studio question. I think people are taking us up on the $100,000 in-studio ticket offer. It's pretty awesome. We've got to open up to more people. Well, my question is, I've been looking up while we've been talking, I've been looking up life expectancy, okay? And Japan is number one in life expectancy. And America, which is supposed to be the best healthcare and so on, we're 31st on the list. However, let's see, Austria and Spain are tied for fourth, Iceland and Italy are tied for sixth, and Israel, or let's see now, Sweden and France are tied for ninth, which puts us at 35th on the

list. Okay. So we're 35th and you hear all the time about the American health system. You hear about the medical care here and how long they have to wait in Germany. Germany's ahead of us. How long they have to wait in Canada. Canada's ahead of us. Everybody's ahead of us in terms of life expectancy. Ours is like 79.3 and it's 84.7 in Japan. Okay. Now, we claim to have one of the best healthcare systems. However, when I see Mark and I see Chris, and they're in discussions with doctors, we have doctors in the family. I've been on doctor's appointments with them. They've been to my doctor's appointments. And these doctors will

sit and argue with them. Well, the American Medical Association, you know, I've been in practice for 38 years and the American Medical Association does not support what you're saying. The American Cancer Society does not support what you're saying. The American Heart Association does not support what you're saying. And you're not a doctor. How can you possibly have an opinion on this that carries any kind of weight? So citing that doctors are so stuck on their associations, They're so stuck on their college educations that are 30 and 40 years old

because they're at the peak. They're the directors at the college. They're the director over the eye, ears, and nose, and throat, or they're the director over the heart part of the college. Okay, so dependent on the American Heart Association articles and the fact that the stuff that they're saying isn't published, that they're just totally and completely closed to it. Exactly right.

You're appreciating just how broken the American healthcare system is, yet it costs more than any other country in the world. We pay more than everybody else. And by the way, the only two countries on earth that allow direct-to-consumer drug ads is the US and New Zealand, both of whom have the highest healthcare costs in the world. So we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world that, by the way, ranks last in quality of care compared to the 13 or 14 other westernized countries. So I hear that from my

colleagues. We have the best healthcare system. No, we don't. We have the worst healthcare system in the western world. And as you point out, we're seeing now a downtrend in longevity because the national guidelines and other factors, glyphosate in our food, hormonal disruptors in plastics. I mean, other parts of the world aren't quite as exposed as we are because we have a willy-nilly lack of legislation, for instance, on industrial compounds being disseminated. So there's a lot of problems here. You and I can't fix them all today, but I think listeners need to hear that.

Take a few basic steps. I think listeners need to hear that. Take a few basic steps. Don't become victimized by the ignorance of your doctor, who, as you point out, his education is woefully out of date. And he's not concerned with your health. He's concerned with the bottom line and whether he can drum up more procedures for him. Or, you know, I live in Milwaukee,

where most of the doctors are now employees of health care systems. And they tell me that they're told this by the administrators, doctor, more revenue you raise for the healthcare system, the larger your end of quarter bonus. So Dr. John Smith drums up more MRIs, neurology consultations, heart catheterizations, bypass operations, and other procedures because his bonus will be much bigger that way. So that's the system we're dealing with. The tragedy, of course, is if you want a message of health, you can no longer get it from most doctors. But that's why what we're doing here today is so critical so that people hear these kinds of messages and don't fall for

the nonsense that comes out of the doctor's office. Thank you. You know, no one has to worry about us being 35th because our country is so unhealthy that we're making other countries unhealthy. So we won't be 35th for long. We'll be able to catch up because we're infiltrating all these other countries with McDonald's, Coke and Pepsi. I know that these trillion dollar companies will take care of us and move us back up the ladder as they kill more and more people off fast. Get rid of the competition. That's right. Take people out. Yeah, no, I'm good, man. I mean, just for, there's a couple of people asking about like lifting, uh, one guy's actually asking about running, but, um, what do, what do we eat for performance? Like, uh, I know a lot of like lifters that we love to eat carbs and stuff um you know get the pump going and whatnot is is there a happy medium where we can add some of these things that you're saying may not be the greatest for us but will help us in uh in the gym yeah or are there some carbs that you'd recommend yeah there you go i think you're seeing uh in the crossfit community

to some degree some of the weight lift community, some of the triathlon community are starting to understand that carb loading is very, very bad for you. It contributes to dysbiosis, insulin resistance, small LDL particles, dementia risk, et cetera. So the problem with that, I have a professional tennis daughter who we had to do this with her. Transitioning took six plus weeks. So transitioning from a high-carb, carb-loading lifestyle to an almost no-carb diet. Not ketogenic, though, because ketogenic has its own issues, right? We talked about that. But it takes about six weeks.

And then you can perform at a very high level without the carbs. An occasional type, which is probably genetically determined, may need modest increase either in protein or modest source of carbs during prolonged endurance, like a 100-mile bike or a marathon run. But most people don't need any carbs. Now, I know the weightlifters will say, but if you add carbs, you get an insulin response and it helps build muscle. But you're sacrificing health in the process. You can't consume a lot of carbs to build muscle and not provoke formation of small LDL particles, insulin resistance, dysbiosis, etc.

So I don't think it's a good idea to sacrifice a big part of your health for the sake of more rapid muscle growth. But let me throw this one plug in. Now, boost oxytocin. That works. That, boost oxytocin, that works. I go to the gym. I do a variety of things, but I go to the gym to use the machines, et cetera, maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes, once a week, twice a week. In other words, I don't do that much. I gained 12 pounds in muscle from that yogurt. Wow. So I'd rather do that. The hell's in that yogurt. I gotta get this yogurt.

How much trend do you put in the yogurt? No, that's all I got, Mark. Um, you know, a lot of times when it comes to like bodybuilding, powerlifting, you know, I think the, the, uh, trend is to, you know, feed your body nutrition throughout the day. You know, as we talked about earlier, you kind of mentioned, uh, not a great idea to, you know, to feed yourself six times a day. Um, but it's been something that's been done by bodybuilders for, for a long period of time. And so when they're feeding themselves, you know, X amount of times per day, uh, they have carbs, fat, protein, carbs, fat, protein, carbs, fat, protein, and they don't really cut out any one thing. If bodybuilders to do a bodybuilding show, they may cut back on the carbohydrates and they may cut back on the dietary fat quite a bit and really just kind of run off of protein as they're going.

But we all kind of understand that's not the healthiest practice. Your suggestion is about, you know, 15 grams of carbohydrates per meal or so. And, you know, if somebody had three or four meals in a day, it would be 45 to 60 grams of carbohydrates. I think a lot of the people that are active, that are moving around and trying to answer that question a little bit more specifically with like a number. I think a lot of people that are active, that have muscle, that are healthy, that are young, can probably have 150 to 200 grams of carbs a day and not sacrifice their health. Because I think in a lot of cases, you're going to be utilizing a lot of those carbohydrates. You're going to be kind of burning up a lot of those sugars. And in my own experience, I did very a lot of cases, you're going to be utilizing a lot of those carbohydrates. You're going to be kind of burning up a lot of those sugars.

And in my own experience, um, I did very well off of about a hundred to 150 grams of carbs, which for somebody my size is really just, it's, it's not that much. And I think most of the bodybuilders and most of the, um, even power lifters, I think they would say, you know, back when they were eating more and more carbohydrates and that was kind of the thing, a lot of them would say they would be just as big and just as strong with less. And so I think that the amount of, like you, yes, carbohydrates are going to help and it's going to help keep your muscles to feel full. Carbohydrate will help hydrate the muscle. carbohydrate will help hydrate the muscle. There's definitely something to that where, where you have this kind of, for lack of a better term, like intracellular hydration that makes you feel awesome when you're in

the gym, it makes you feel strong. But how much of that do you really need? I think it's probably half of what you might think. You know, some of these guys are having 500 grams of carbohydrates every day, four or 500 grams of carbohydrates every day. He or 500 grams of carbohydrates every day. He's about to have a heart attack. Yeah. Well, it, it, it, for, you know, each guy might be a little different.

It may be necessary, but I do agree with the statement that, yeah, it could be at the risk of, of your own health. Having excessive amounts of muscle mass. Being excessively lean, like neither one of those things is probably that great, uh, for your body really like the body's body's going to be kind of resistant to, uh, you being too far out of reach of what you're normally supposed to be. Yeah. And then we, we hear a lot of people like, oh, I lift, it's okay.

I can eat X amount of carbs or calories or whatever. Can we, like, let's say have a hundred grams of carbs and then chase that down in the gym? Like, will it basically, will we break even if we exert that amount of energy to kind of break all those down and burn them up? No, because the response has unfolded already. You can limit the duration of it. But I tell you, one of the things, one of my kind of litmus tests for all this is having done thousands and thousands and thousands of lipoprotein analyses. And the lesson you learn over time with that is just how easy it is to increase your cardiovascular risk. It is as easy as one slice of pizza. It's as easy as one whole apple and you'll have oodles of small LDL. So if I had, let's say some carb on Monday that exceeded 15 grams net, let's say it

was 50 grams. I'll have small LDL for a week as opposed to large LDL provoked by fat consumption that lasts for about 24 hours. So, you know, because I came from the world of heart disease and you see what happens to people with that, it is very common after all. And heart disease is the number one killer, right? So I still think about that, how easy it was for people to have small LDL particles and thereby cardiovascular risk.

Are vegetable oils a real problem? I'm kind of hearing more and more information come out about that. The polyunsaturated fats, people are more and more information come out about that. The polyunsaturated fats, people are kind of making a big thing about that. Do you think it's really a huge issue? I think it's an issue. I don't think it's the biggest issue. It's not clear, if you look at the science, whether the excessive consumption of polyunsaturates,

like linoleic acid, is really a surrogate measure for lack of omega-3s. That may be part of the issue but there probably is an issue with over consumption which is what happens when people eat fast food diets and do some crazy things like eat margarine uh so i think it is but it's not the biggest issue but it is an issue i think well and even when you go out to eat you're just you're eating a lot more calories than you would if you ate at home because they're uh cooking every they're trying to make everything delicious for you. So you come back. So they're cooking everything in as much oil as possible.

Chris, did you have a question? I just hop over here to the microphone. Yeah, I do have a question because we talked a little bit about a carnivore diet when we were eating breakfast this morning at the Black Bear Diner, eating a steak. My question actually is really important for the carnivore diet and anybody doing it. We have a big problem with glyphosate that we hear in wheat and wheat products, right? And different grains. And we eat these animals that sometimes eat these grains. I eat a lot of grain fed, uh, beef because I like

it. It tastes better. Uh, is that causing a problem? Have we seen the glyphosate go from, uh, the animal into the human being and has that affected the human being? Good question. I don't know. I'm not sure that's been looked at, but that'd be an important question to look into. If there's transfer of glyphosate from the meats and fats you eat into you. I don't know. Okay. But good question. But it is clear, it is clear that GMOs are a big problem.

The industry won't admit this, focusing more on the, whether the genetic changes themselves are deleterious and they ignore the whole fact that a lot of the GMOs are linked to various herbicides, pesticides. So I think it's a problem, but I can't, I don't know that. Yeah. It's, it seems to be the only, uh, drawback. The only thing I can, I, that I can look at the diet and say like, okay, that's something I really need to look into and figure out. Uh, the rest of it seems to be working really well for me and be pretty safe. Uh, I'm just worried about that. That's the only thing. What would be your main concern with the carnivore diet? Would it be the same thing as the ketogenic diet?

Like if you did it for a long period of time, maybe you're not feeding the gut flora? Exactly. So whether it's Atkins or ketogenic diet or carnivorous diet, the lack of prebiotic fibers is a real serious issue. It won't lead to problems in weeks, but it will in months to years. And that can be show up as diverticulitis disease or colon cancer or heart disease or other forms. So I think it's a real issue. So attention to prebiotic fibers is really an essential thing. And I think in this day and age where we're paying a lot more attention to the microbiome, it's becoming clear just how

massively disrupted you can be by doing those kinds of things for an extended period. Where can people find you? Where can people buy your books and find out more information about you? The books are everywhere. All bookstores, but Amazon, all that. The most active conversations are the Wheat Belly blog, the Wheat Belly Facebook page, the Wheat Belly 10-Day Brain Detox private Facebook page. There's an Undoctored blog, undoctored Facebook page.

So there's, Google it and you'll find it. Awesome. We'll attach that to this podcast. Appreciate you coming out here. This has been amazing. This has been awesome. The information you shared today

is going to make a big difference. We really appreciate it. Strength is never a weakness. Weakness is never a strength. Catch you guys later.