Mark Bell's Power Project - Power Project EP. 134 - Zevia CEO Paddy Spence

Episode Date: October 30, 2018

Paddy Spence is the CEO of Zevia, a company that makes naturally sweetened sodas using Stevia. He completely cut sugar out of his diet over 17 years ago and is passionate about helping other people become healthy. He obtained his MBA from Harvard University and at the age of 25 became the first head of sales and marketing for Kashi when they only had 7 employees. He then found SPINS, the first market research company tracking sales of healthy, natural, and organic foods. Then later, moved onto growing Zevia through his passion to lead a healthy lifestyle and to help others lead theirs. ➢SHOP NOW: https://markbellslingshot.com/ Enter Discount code, "POWERPROJECT" at checkout and receive 15% off all Sling Shots ➢Subscribe Rate & Review on iTunes at: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-bells-power-project/id1341346059?mt=2 ➢Listen on Stitcher Here: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/mark-bells-power-project?refid=stpr ➢Listen on Google Play here: https://play.google.com/music/m/Izf6a3gudzyn66kf364qx34cctq?t=Mark_Bells_Power_Project ➢Listen on SoundCloud Here: https://soundcloud.com/markbellspowerproject FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell ➢ Snapchat: marksmellybell Follow The Power Project Podcast ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/MarkBellsPowerProject Podcast Produced by Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz

pretty good workout we got in there. It was awesome. Building up the chest, building up the pecs. Yeah. I'm still sticky from the workout. You got a little sticky? Mm-hmm. You got some of that Zevia on you?

Yeah. I smell like cream soda. It's actually- It's not a bad smell. I think we're going to start selling that as a cologne. Or a car freshener would be great. Well, you know what? We have an employee who, she loves the grape,

and she pours it in the back of her car as an air freshener. Just saying. That's awesome. Yeah, we actually just got jiggy with it. We got that stuff all over the place. And I was like, I got it in my eyes and I got it all over my arms and everything. And it's not sticky. No.

And I was able to pick the cans up after the workout. I was a little worried about that. It didn't burn my eyes. So I don't know what the heck's in this stuff, but it's not whatever's in regular soda, that's for sure. No, it's the good stuff. How did some of this come to be? How did you end up passionate about health and passionate about supplying people with such a product? I guess let's kind of take us back to the beginning.

Where did some of this interest start? Well, you know, it really started, I think, for me as a kid, wanting to be into athletics, wanting to be healthy, not being very good at throwing, kicking, catching, hitting a ball with a stick. Just not good at a few things. Not good at any of those sports that people love and saying, geez, there's got to be something that I that, that is going to agree with my body.

Uh, and then finally I got into endurance and individual sports and things like running and wrestling, uh, didn't involve a ball. And so I was better at it day one. Um, and then along the way, you know, one of the things I realized was that about half of my athletic performance was not what I was doing on the field, but what I was putting into my body. And so from a pretty early age, started getting focused on what I put into my body as an important part of my training. And now, you know, I've been off of sugar. My wife and I actually went off of sugar 17 years ago and started using Stevia every day. It sounds like such a crazy claim. Like we're off sugar. We're off sugar. Well, and I didn't realize I was on sugar. And then we said, let's do a food journal.

A lot of people are probably in that boat. Well, right. And I thought I was a healthy guy. I was doing triathlons. This is 17 years ago, early 2000s. And I did a food journal for a week. And lo and behold, found out I was getting 250 grams of sugar every single day. Not just carbohydrates. No, straight up sugar, all from stuff that I was buying at a health food store. A couple of smoothies, a couple of cliff bars, unrefined cane crystals in my tea. Well, guess what? It's all sugar. And so that thousand calories a day was creating spikes of energy and crashes, spike, crash, spike, crash. And like any drug, the more you use it, the less effective it is. And so at a certain point at that end point with sugar, you're just

mainlining it all day long to stay even half sane. So we went off a sugar cold turkey and it was a gut-wrenching process. I broke out in hives head to toe, but, and was eating like two and a half pounds of meat a day just to kill the cravings. After a week though, my body kind of normalized. The hives went away and that was 17 years ago. And I've been able to stay on that ever since. And it, you know, one of the things we were talking about earlier

is this idea of a foundation for health. Everyone's got to have a foundation. And these people who say, well, I'm going to work out six days a week and I'm going to be a vegan and I'm going to eat this supplement and I'm going to eat this supplement. I'm going to do these things. Good luck.

Get it all done in one day. Yeah. Good luck. Right. And we know this is a long-term journey. And so pick one thing. Right. And for me, that was sugar.

And so I can survive. I mean, I think I told you I was sedentary for 18 weeks this summer and we can talk about that. But the only thing that kept me going was no sugar because I sure as hell couldn out. Uh, it's important to have that foundation. I mentioned to you about my brother, my brother, you know, he was addicted to drugs. He was addicted to alcohol. And, uh, he and I have been friends with, uh, Michael Hearn, who's a fitness celebrity, trains at Gold's gym. And Mike is, uh, has been a staple of Gold's gym for the last like 30 years. He's the most consistent guy that we know. But in talking to him, he's like, you know, what's crazy.

He's like, you guys are still here too, though. You guys are right here with me and you guys are still in good shape and you guys are still strong. And it's because my brother and I have had a foundation in fitness. We've, we've kept, I mean, just hold on to one damn thing. Exactly. You're not going to be able to hold on to all of it. You're not going to be able to hold all things together all the time.

It just gets to be too hard. There's going to be times in your life where there's some darkness shed upon your life due to someone getting ill or someone dying. I mean, all kinds of stupid, crazy things happen to us in our life that carry us away from what we want to try to do. crazy things happen to us in our life that, that carry us away from what we want to try to do. We have all these good intentions and then we, we, uh, end up with a lot of, uh, obstacles that end up kind of preventing us from doing some of the things. And then as we always talk about here on the power project, we're our own worst enemy and we stack the chips against ourselves as well. And so, yeah, I agree a hundred percent find something that you can try to hold onto. Now, the big thing with sugar and, and keep in mind during this podcast, when we're talking about, we're mainly talking about added sugar. Um, we're not necessarily talking about just

carbohydrates period. That's, um, you know, the carbo, the carbohydrate thing I think is, uh, very dependent on the person and dependent upon what the person's goal is. We're primarily just talking about added sugar and just bullshit sugar too. That's kind of, you're kind of just drinking it and having it just because you're used to it. Well, yeah. And I would say though, you know, a lot of people fall into this trap where they say, well, you know what? I'm not drinking sugar. I drink fruit juice.

I drink an apple juice. Right. And that's like somebody saying, well, I'm not an alcoholic. I only drink beer. Drink enough beer, you drink enough apple juice and it? And that's like somebody saying, well, I'm not an alcoholic. I only drink beer. You drink enough beer, you drink enough apple juice, and it's not that different. And so with sugar, you're exactly right. But I think it's about moderation. And I think so much of it is about, like you said, being in this world where we just have so little control. And when you can control one tiny element of your life, whether that's your diet and your sugar intake or your workout or whatever, it just changes the entire day. And so for me, I mean, we had that brief workout before this.

That made my day. I don't need to do anything else today. I feel amazing. It spins you up. It's like 10 cups of coffee. Yeah. And also, too, if you think about, you mentioned fruit juice. So fruit juice is absent of the things that the actual fruit itself

already had for you, uh, in preparation for you eating it. Like it's, it's specifically designed. It's really crazy how everything works, but it's specifically designed for you to eat it. Uh, an apple has about five grams of fiber and probably has about 20 grams of sugar, but you're going to digest an apple much slower due to the outside of it and how you have to chew it, how your body processes it versus you taking, I don't know, uh, eight apples or 10 apples, throwing them in a blender and having it making like eight ounces of, uh, apple juice. Right? Well, exactly. And you're exactly right. The fiber allows the sugar absorption to go more gradually. Uh, when you don't have that fiber and you're just taking liquid sugar, it's going right to your have that fiber and you're just taking liquid sugar,

it's going right to your pancreas and you're spiking insulin. And you can only do that so many times before your body adjusts and it needs more. And so that's the trap we fall into. And so if we can get ourselves off of that trap, we can use sugar as it's designed to be used, which is as a drug, right? That lasts 10 minutes. Of course, it's going to give you an energy boost. Just don't overuse it.

Now, you know, you went through this progression of being in different sports and you started learning about nutrition and exercise and stuff like that. And then kind of where did this story go from there? Well, so, yeah, I mean, as a kid, I loved endurance sports. I loved combat sports. And so I wrestled for a long time. But as a kid, I loved endurance sports. I loved combat sports. And so I wrestled for a long time. But as an adult, got into endurance sports. And really, for me, it was about how can I work in an industry that supports health?

And that was what I was interested in. So somehow fell into the natural foods business. And in 1992, I started working for what at the time was a tiny startup cereal company called Kashi. Yeah, it's huge now. for what at the time was a tiny startup cereal company called Kashi. Yeah, it's huge now. Yeah, and the history of Kashi is fascinating, actually, because I'm proud to say my mother-in-law, Gail Tauber, invented Kashi.

And what a cool thing. But my mother and father-in-law, actually, my mother-in-law's maiden name is Weeder. So Joe and Ben were cousins. Wow. And my mother and father-in-law owned Vince's gym in North Hollywood in the late seventies, early eighties. So they were hardcore bodybuilders. And it was in that early days where, you know, that was starting to hit the mainstream. And so they went through a period where they were doing, you know, six eggs a day and two pounds of meat.

And that led to Kashi and kind of maybe going, kind of maybe going too hard on, on that, uh, cause them to go to a complex carbohydrate, uh, multigrain diet. And that was Kashi. So for me, that was kind of my entree into the world of natural and organic foods 26 years ago. And it's been kind of a journey ever since. All these kinds of foods though, too, they're, you know, people can argue that grains are this or grains are that, or, you know, this product's not better than that product because of A, B, or C,

but it's just more options. You know, we're trying to replace, uh, you know, a really crappy habit where some of these grains and some of the cereals like cereal is, is terrible, but there are brands that are starting to emerge like Kashi, where they are trying to at least have a lot less sugar, a lot less ingredients, a lot less junk in their products. And so I would love to see the grocery store, you know, do a 180 and have it be. And we need people like Jeff Bezos. We need, you know, people that run Whole Foods. I guess that'd be Jeff Bezos. We need, we need some of these people to step, step up, uh, to the, to the forefront and be pioneers of this and say, you know what, we're not, we're not buying catalogs anymore. Like we're not buying it for our store. Well, it's interesting you say that.

And I think one of the things that we're really seeing change, and this is what's so cool. And you look at any discipline, whether it's, uh, healthy eating or working out or whatever, we're now in an environment where the individual can actually research and learn on their own, right? In a way that we couldn't 30 years ago. And we could go to the library and check out outdated books. But now we can actually do primary research on the internet. And when it comes to healthy foods, what that's done is it's changed the whole way people shop. And now they're saying, hey, I'm going to go on Amazon or I'm going to go online and understand what these ingredients are. And I'm going to see what peer reviews say. And I'm not

just going to pay attention to the Superbowl ad and the giant display in the store. And so the consumer has more power than they've ever had. And I think that's true in exercise as well as nutrition, which is great for all of us. Yeah. The barrier of entry is a lot less because now I can hear someone say, Oh, Zevia is this product that, you know, has zero, zero calories. And then I can Google it, right. Or I can look it up on Amazon and I can be like, oh crap, I can order that now. And I can look at reviews and I can find out, oh, it's, it doesn't have any artificial sweeteners. It doesn't have any sugar alcohol, right. You can kind of research all that and be like, that's perfect for me. I want to try that. Well, exactly. And similarly, you know, imagine trying to sell the slingshot 35 years ago.

You'd be doing little ads in the back of a bodybuilding magazine. And that probably still works also, but the internet's great too, right? And so the whole way that we explore and find these game-changing products has completely changed and it's great for folks like us. Yeah, I know. What would people do? Send me cash? I don't know. Send you a check? Yeah, exactly.

Now I wouldn't even know what to do with that. I think it'd be a money order. Cashier's check. Yeah, we've had, we still get letters here and there, but that's usually from people that are in jail. Right. They're people too. I've had people send me a couple bucks before too, which is kind of funny.

Like when I've gotten hurt before, people send me like 20 bucks. Wow. Yeah. I don't know what it's for. I guess that's what it's for. Here's 20 bucks to help sew up your peck. I'm not really sure how that goes. Yeah.

It is always like interesting. Like back in the day when we would mail stuff out, like, how do you know if it's going to get there? Are they going to mess up my order? Right. I don't have a receipt. You just took everybody's word for it. Yeah. Crazy. So through this process, through, you know, working for Kashi, you must have learned a lot, right? Well, I learned a ton and I learned a few

different things. I mean, kind of the real learning of that was how do you take a niche behavior or product and take it mainstream? And I think that's, you know, really we're in this world where there's so much opportunity in that regard. Hey, you want to go compete against Ford and General Motors and make an electric car? You can do it, right, if you're Elon. And so there's almost nothing that sounds insane

in this world today because of that opportunity. So that's what makes business fun. When you worked there, was it like, because it was a startup at the time, did you do any and everything? Was it that kind of deal? A ton of, yeah. I mean, test and learn is a big philosophy. What's your job? I'm not sure. I try to do everything. We're trying to figure it out, right? Is it, is it a billboard on the side of the road that's going to get people to buy this product? Is it serving it at a 10 K race? You know, what is it? And so we just experimented a ton and started to understand kind of what populations were responding to a product like that. And to your point,

how do you talk about it? How do you talk about grains? They're a carbohydrate. So who's going to be receptive to that? And so, you know, I think that's what the real fun of marketing is, is you're, you're interacting with people to see what they respond to. Right. And, uh, did you find that with that particular product, you know, one of the quickest ways to sell it was just for somebody to try it? Absolutely. And I think in general with healthy products, because people always have that kind of hesitation, you know, okay, I see this stuff, it's a soda and a can, but I'm not putting a penny down until I taste it. And then once they taste it and they realize, wait a second, this has four simple plant-based

ingredients and it only costs a buck. I'm in. How many times have we tasted something that was supposed to be healthy for us and been like, oh man. Exactly. I should not have purchased that. Well, and we want to like stuff that's healthy, right? Right. But sometimes it just doesn't measure up and you're like, man, I'm glad I tried that and didn't buy it.

Yeah. I've heard, and I, you know, who knows what's true or whatever, but I've heard like companies like Clif Bar and stuff. They put that little extra, that little extra tang at the end, that little extra zip at the end so that you think it's a healthy product. Well, I think, you know, the most- They throw like vitamins in there to make you kind of think like this is like, if you, if it tasted too good, and I think their idea was if it tastes too good, you're, you're going to be, you know, wanting to overindulge on it and you're not going to think it's healthy for you. Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the perception of health impacts the way people taste stuff and you want to like stuff that's healthy. So,

you know, that's huge. Yeah. And then also like, like for the general population, like it kind of deters people away from wanting to even try like a quote unquote, healthier bar, healthier option. Cause there's like, Oh no, that's going to taste like vitamins. I've, I tried those a while back. They're no good. Well, and it's interesting though, I think people are starting to change in that regard. And I think, you know, if you go went back 30, 40 years ago, right. A significant portion of the population would have a, a visceral negative reaction to something healthy. Right. I mean, maybe for more than 50%, but you ask 119 year olds who wants to be more healthy. Most people are saying yes. And so I think that whole perspective has changed.

And it's in part because of, frankly, medical and health care. And we're in a world where health care is a bigger portion of everyone's budget than it was when we were kids, where the lines are longer, the treatment's tougher, and people are living longer. And so they're having more diseases. And so in that environment, how the hell do you take control of your health? This is how you start cooking, right? You start eating, right? You start working out because those are things I can control. I can't control how long I'm going to have to wait at the doctor's office. Try the small stuff first. Exactly. Making a change to, you know, going from drinking soda every day to having an option like this is great.

Having the, instead of watching three hours of TV when you get home from work, maybe you watch one and maybe you go walk for an hour, you know, like just, or even just walk for 20 minutes, just something, you know, you try to get, you try to get some sort of, figure out a way to get some sort of momentum. Well, exactly. And I think our brains and our bodies respond to that. And so it's just a little bit gets you going. I think, you know, a lot of times someone will look at your schedule or look at something that I'm doing and they'll be like, oh man, those guys are like fitness freaks, man. I don't know how to keep up with any of that because you're doing jujitsu and you're doing kickboxing and you're lifting weights as well. Plus you're running this monster of a business that continues to grow all the time.

How are you able to make time for all, you have kids and stuff. How are you able to make time for all these things? What I try to do is I try to break the day up into a lot of little slices. So I'm not, I'm not. Did you get that from your jujitsu coach? You mentioned your jujitsu coach breaking down the moves. Well, exactly. I mean, Tahee Burns is a genius.

And, and I think, you know, when you look at the great coaches, whether it's Tahi Burns at PKG or Eddie Bravo at 10th Planet or Half Gracie, who I started jujitsu with, each of those guys, you take the positions and you break them down. And similarly, no one can follow a 10 minute sequence of moves, right? No human being can do that. Similarly, very few people can sit at their desk for four hours straight and be productive, right? I'm really good at doing that for like 28 minutes and then I got to do something else. And so it's about breaking up the day into those slices and not falling into unproductive time. Because what ends up happening

is if we think we're going to sit down for four hours, we're going to have like 28 minutes of productive time, an hour of wasting time, another 28 of productive time. If you didn't allow yourself that four hour period and you said, I'm doing 28 minutes and then I'm going to go do something else. You've broken that up. And, and I feel it with workouts too. You know, it's like, I'm going to do that workout.

I'm going to go as hard as I can for whatever period of time. And then I'm going to do something different instead of just sitting around the gym. Is it a hard for you to figure out any sort of balance? Yes. You know, I think, yeah, I think life's about failing every day, right? It's about having your eyes bigger than your stomach. And there's more that I want to fit into every single day than I ever do. Do that every meal.

Yeah. Every meal I sit down, I'm like, who is this for? Is there a polar bear that's going to be eating with me or something? But if there's like six things I have to get done and I try to do 14 and get 10 done, okay. Right. That works. So, yeah, for me, that's what it's about. And it's about balance.

I want to have, you know, some good workout time in a day. It doesn't mean I'm going to be kicking ass for two hours. I might just have a half an hour really good time. You know, a couple of hours of really productive work, some great time with my, my wife, Jera and my children. Um, you know, those are all important things. And then by the way, I live in Los Angeles, so don't lose your mind on the commute, right? Keep it all in perspective. Cause that's going to be a shitty 28 minutes. Right. Yeah. That's right. And so, so part of it is, is enjoying those great parts and then not stressing out during the lousy downtime.

Right. Do you get frustrated if, if, uh, if, if something carries over into the next day? I do. And I think that's human nature, but I try to, to set my intention each day. And, and, and I think that's what working out does. It gives you a reset, right? No matter how bad your day was, if you work out, it starts over, right? It's a brand new day after that workout. And I think that's, what's so cool. And that's that whole idea of breaking up your day, right? Where is a spot where you won't give up ground? Is it with your exercise? No, I give up ground with my exercise, unfortunately, you know, I, um, it just depends on what's scheduled. If it's a family thing, then of course you're going to handle that. Yeah. And I would say, you know, some, I always fail, right?

Every single day, whether it's workout work, my own personal health or family time, I fall short somewhere. And so I'm always beating myself up. I, you know, had a great family day. Gosh, I didn't get that work done or I didn't work out or I ate shitty or whatever. Um, but you know, the perfect day is where you get all those. Right. That happens once in a while. Once in a while. Yeah. Yeah. I think, uh, I think it's important to, to understand it's important for people to understand how to lose, but it's also

important for people to understand how to win. I think sometimes you think you have Zevia and you, you, uh, you're working out all the time. You have your health, you got your fitness, you got your kids, you get your wife. And so a lot of times people just think, ah, it's, you know, cruise control. Right. Well, I think, you know, it's all about how you define success, right? To me, what's success? Job, car, roof over the head, dinner at night. I don't know what else I need, honestly. I mean, that's success. And then when you start to layer out, layering things like working out, you know, beautiful sunset in Los Angeles,

my kids' first cross country race, whatever it is, those are the things that take stuff to the next level. And I think, you know, having that ability to be happy with what you got is so crucial. Because I think when you look at the people who have a hard time achieving success, it's because they're not happy with whatever point they're at. Right. If you can't enjoy the race, you're not going to enjoy the finish line.

That's true. How long have you had Zevia for? It's been a little over eight years at Zevia now. And then, uh, did you buy the company or buy into the company? I did. I heard that work. It was a tiny startup, um, founded by a couple of folks in Seattle. And it was an early stage company that had a real promise. And I had been off of sugar almost 10 years at that point. And I looked at this thing and my whole process is find something that I'm personally passionate about where I also think there's business opportunity. And if there's both,

that's great. There's a lot of great businesses that I can't personally get excited about and I would do a lousy job at running them. And then there's some, some things that I'm passionate about that no one cares about, and that's probably not going to go anywhere. So I saw Zevia on the shelf. I said, I would drink this. And I think this is a big opportunity. Boom. That's where the magic happens. So I was able to partner with the founders and then we've kind of been taken off ever since. And then when you first got with Zevia, wasn't the product a little bit different? It was. And I think, you know, it's a kind of fundamental difference in how we view the product. If you think about a product like Coca-Cola, they said, okay, we got this formula a hundred years ago. We're going to lock it in a vault, not tell anybody about it. And we're not going to change it at all. Well, a lot of stuff has changed over a hundred years, right?

And so maybe the product you created a hundred years ago isn't ideal for today's world. Whether that means caramel color, artificial sweeteners, or phosphoric acid, or GMOs, or artificial preservatives, or whatever. So our whole philosophy is, you know what, we got a formula and we're going to continue to improve it. And they didn't take that first iPhone and say, okay, we're done. Got it. Right. Yeah. That thing sucked compared to what we have today. Right. We'd throw that, we'd use it as a weight. And so it's about continually improving. And, and Stevia, when we started, I mean, Stevia was only a few years old and FDA granted Stevia sweetener status in 2008. What does that mean?

That means it used to be a dietary supplement. And in 2008, FDA said, you know what? We've reviewed the research. This thing is safe to use as a sweetener. That was only 10 years ago. Right. So the ingredient has really come a long way in terms of purity and taste. And so we've continued to improve the product.

And so like an iPhone, we're always creating the next better tasting version. And so there's no point where you say, okay, we're done. And that's a fundamental difference in philosophy. And what it allows us to do is always be better. And it's like in the gym, you don't get to your max and say, okay, I benched 400, I'm done. I'm never going to bench again. Right. Say what's next. And so that's our whole philosophy is that continuous improvement thing. And we know we can always make the product better. We know we can make it less expensive. We know we can make it more clean. Well, you get such quick interaction with the fans of the product, right? They're going

to say, oh man, that ginger root beer, you know, it'd be better if it had this. And what if you hear that, you know, five times, 10 times, 50 times, and it just happens over and over again. And you're like, hey, well, maybe we should look into this. Why don't we try it? And I think that's such a fundamental piece of what we do is that interaction with the consumer, right? And you can write a hundred letters to Coke.

They're not changing anything. You can write a million letters. They're not changing it. But when people started writing to us a few years ago, for example, and they said, hey, you know, these three sodas, the ginger root beer, the cream soda, and the ginger ale, they all have caramel color. And there's a lot of research out there that says, you know what? The caramel color and zero calorie sodas could have health issues. In fact, could be linked to cancer. Yeah. Well, so you get a few of those letters. You're like, what the hell

are we doing? You're in a tough market because the people that you're selling to are pretty sharp. Yeah. Right. The people that you're selling to are like, Hey, like even they'll break down the can that you're using. I'm sure.

And be like, Hey, this is an alloyed, whatever the hell. And they'll, you're like, Oh my God, like these guys know more than we do.

Well, and that's, what's so great is you learn from those consumers and, and you know, you get 10 of those letters saying, Hey, there's this horrible chemical by-product called 4-MEI that's in caramel color. Why do you have it? And then we start doing some research. Yeah. Why do we have it? So we got rid of it, you know, and, and yet we're the only

soda company that did. And, and so you realize there's something fundamentally wrong when people, consumers are saying something to a brand and the brand doesn't listen. Right. Right. And we want to be the brand that listens to people. That's so easy to do. It's all becoming so clear. Boom. There you go. Tagline. Yeah. All the soda is clear, which makes it seem like a mutant soda from outer space. Well, exactly. And you know, what's so wild is like five years ago, people thought that was crazy, especially, you know, and what's funny, and this is how our brains work. years ago, people thought that was crazy, especially, you know, and what's funny, and this is how our brains work. Cola, clear cola freaked people out. It did clear ginger ale. They didn't really care. I think we got like one letter on ginger ale. Maybe we got 10 letters on ginger

root beer. We got like a thousand letters on cola. People are like, what the hell? And, um, what they didn't realize is that actually some people would be like... We zapped it with nuclear waste. They would write us a letter and they would say, I just bought this and it had been clear maybe for like three years at that point. I drank five of them and they had color and the sixth one's clear. And I'm like, yeah, it's been clear for like three years. None of them had color. You just didn't realize it. Right. Like, we don't know what you're drinking at this point. No. And that's what's so funny is caramel color is not caramel flavor.

It's a color. So it actually doesn't affect taste, but our brain thinks it does. And did the original product have some sugar alcohol in it as well? It had some erythritol. Exactly. And I think, you know, one of the things we've been able to do is the stevia plant is a pretty incredible plant. It's in the sunflower family, native to Latin America, but grows in any hot climate. Is it huge like sunflower? No, it's like, it's a shrub. It's

about two and a half, three feet tall, kind of bushy. But the leaf is like 200 times the sweet of sugar. And there's a whole bunch of compounds in the leaf that are sweet. And so in the old days, we used to use just one of them and it's called called Reb-A. Well, Reb-A is a good sweetener, but it's very what we would call a spiky sweetness. So it hits your palate very intensely and it trails off. So we used to use erythritol to kind of round out, give a more sugar-like taste. But over the years, we've experimented with the stevia plant, and there's actually other compounds that are really good. And so we were able to do away with erythritol and use other sweeteners from the leaf. So now we're only stevia.

So for the folks who are paleo or keto, those sugar alcohols, you know, that's just not really something you're looking for. And so we were able to remove that. A lot of this comes with the company becoming more profitable as well, right? Like when the company's doing well, you guys are able to put more research into it. You're able to say, yeah, you know what, maybe we should go for that more expensive, you know, in the beginning, it's kind of tough, right? You're trying to make things work for everybody. Well, in the beginning, you're just trying to survive, right? And like all businesses, you're just trying to keep the lights on and then you can start, as you said, to invest in ingredients. So, you. So we invested in getting our

products all non-GMO, project verified. We're gluten-free, we're vegan, we're zero sodium. And so we just continue to raise the bar. And actually on the new line, the tea is our first USDA organic line. So that costs a bunch. Organic ingredients are not cheap, but to your point, that's where we can start to reinvest in ingredients to continue to raise the purity of the line. And you don't know what each customer is looking for. So like the more things that you can have on there that are healthy, probably the better. Well, exactly. And that's what's so interesting.

You find these populations of people who you never realized had special needs. And I'll tell you, one of the biggest ones for us has been kidney disease. So I didn't know this until Zevia, but one out of seven Americans have kidney disease. Most people don't know it. And the best way to manage it, especially in the earlier stages, is through diet. And so low potassium, low phosphorus. So if you've got kidney disease, frankly, you should never drink regular cola. It's got phosphoric acid. We don't have it. So we're kidney friendly. And so that's been huge for us. So these populations out there, you know, who knew, um, who knew that, uh, dental hygienists would be a big audience for Zevia who knew power lifters. Uh, and so, you know, it's the fun part of my job, frankly, is finding this, these discoveries and then,

uh, starting to, uh, make products to appeal to those folks. Do we have some Zevia vending machines going into schools? We're working on it. Yeah. We're starting to, products to appeal to those folks. Do we have some Zevia vending machines going into schools? We're working on it. Yeah, we're starting to, there's some school systems out there. I mean, that's where, I mean, that's the first place I would love to see it infiltrate just because so many kids are, I mean, what if they grew up on this? Well, exactly. What a difference that would be, right? And what is so cool is the first generation of kids are starting to.

And so, you know. What if they knew nothing else? Wouldn't that be great? My kids, I got a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old imagine. And, and so a couple of years ago they were in a store and my younger daughter said, Oh, there's Zevia. And this is, she was like three at the time. And her sister goes, Sage, that's not Zevia, that's soda. And, and so you can see, they, they see as two different things. They see soda and they see Zevia. And so, uh, yeah, it's amazing to, to watch them grow up with that because one of the things

that happens is when you don't drink a lot of sugar, your palate doesn't need as much. Yeah. Uh, and, and you get accustomed to less sugar. And so my kids, you know, we, we had two birthday parties this weekend. They don't eat the cake, eat the icing and they're done. Right. Cause it's like, how much do you need? Well, you don't need as much as we think you need. Right. Yeah. A little bit goes a long way when it comes to that. Exactly. What about, you know, I'm sure you got all kinds of ideas, probably can't talk about all of them, but what about specifically trying to make things that are kid-friendly-ish?

Well, you know, it's a great insight. I mean, so much of our line really appeals to kids and families are a huge segment for us because, yeah, if you're a and, and families are a huge segment for us because yeah, if you're, if you're a young family and you're a mom or a dad, what's the one thing you want to keep your kids away from? Soda, right? I mean, if you could do one thing health-wise, you'd never have your kids drink soda. Right.

And so, you know, the number of kids that we've seen at, at sampling events who come up and they've never had a soda before, and they kind of look hesitantly at their mom, their mom reads the ingredients. Yeah, go for it. And the kids just light up. It's incredible. So yeah, families are a huge audience for us. Families, athletes, people on special diets. That's kind of really the core of who loves Evia because these are people who care about what they put in their body. What's the research say in terms of what this does to like glucose or insulin? Do you know the information on that? You know, it's, yeah, there's some great research coming out and,

you know, with this line, we don't make any health claims. We don't say that it's going to lower your blood glucose. Stevia is proven to not impact blood glucose in terms of raising. Diabetic, it might be okay. It is definitely 100% okay. And in fact, what I was going to say is there's some emerging research showing that there could be actually, stevia could help control blood glucose levels. Now, we don't make those health claims, but absolutely every diabetes educator and dietician will tell you it does not raise your insulin levels. So that's phenomenal for folks with diabetes, for folks with kidney disease and these other ailments. They can safely consume this product. What was your background like as a kid?

Like what was your upbringing? Did you, you grew up on the East Coast, right? I did. I grew up in the Boston area and in a, you know, health food household, my mom would make steamed tofu for dinner. But so wild about those days is, you know, we had healthy foods and she made her own granola, but we didn't have any beverages that were healthy. And so we still had that two liter of Coke and tab in the

fridge and it wasn't controlled. It was all you can drink. And so, you know, we just didn't know any better. And I think that's what you've seen in the diet over the last 40 years. Yeah. Back then we had steamed tofu and granola, but we didn't have the beverage piece. We didn't have the sugar figured out. And now fast forward to today, people understand that that's what's killing them. I think at that time too, I think people legitimately didn't really know. I think, I think everybody still understood that cookies aren't great for you and ice cream and pizza is not great for you. But I think the soda was kind of a silent thing that snuck into our diet where we're like, Oh, whoops, this is a huge problem too. Well, exactly. And I think we now know that, you know, big food and big beverage funded so much

research pointing at fat as the enemy. And I mean, you know, lean cuisine and healthy choice, those would not have existed in the eighties if it weren't for this obsession with fat. And we now know that was completely misguided. It was a lie. Fat is not bad for you. You know, eating butter is not going to kill you., you know, eating butter is not going to kill you. Eating whole milk and dairy products is not going to kill you. It's sugar that's going to kill you. Right. And, and so that complete lie really misled us for decades. Well, and again, you know, what I always try to share with people on the show is that the sugar ends up being the problem because we just cannot stop eating it. Exactly. You know, we, we get so obsessed with,

uh, we get so obsessed with these foods, we get addicted to these foods, and we don't have the ability to stop ourselves. Well, exactly. And I think with fat, you get filled up. With sugar, you don't get filled up, and you just keep eating it. Right. And on this paper here, I was reading something, your, your mom basically raised you and your, you and your brother. And so that's right. I mean, that upbringing and seeing your mom, you know, you mentioned she's cooking meals for you. Yeah. And I think, you know, meal preparation

and eating meals at home is what I tell people. If you want to get healthy, what's the first thing you should do? Stop eating processed food. Right. And, and I mean, it's, it's so basic and yet it's so hard to do. And, and I mean, we know, it's so basic and yet it's so hard to do. And, and I mean, we know, even if you go to a restaurant, right. I remember I was so bummed when my buddy was working in a restaurant and I was a teenager and he said, you know what they do to the steak? And I'm like, what do they do to the steak? He's like, they put butter all over it. And I'm like, no, no, a regular steak. He's like, yeah, there's butter all over it. I'm like, Jesus Christ, are you kidding me? And, and what you realize is that the amount of sugar and salt that is used in a restaurant

is far more than we would ever use in our kitchen. I mean, it's insane. And so if you get used to home cooking and then you eat processed food or even restaurant food, it's almost too sweet and too salty. And why is that? Because that's how you make stuff taste good when it's preserved, especially packaged foods. I think it's really important for parents to try to cook for their kids as much as possible. It's, it's obviously it's inconvenient, but cooking eggs and things like that, like breakfast is still super fast.

Well, exactly. And I think if you can train kids to enjoy foods that are close to their natural state, I mean, it's easy for the parent. It's easy for the kid. You know, my, I have two kids, my two daughters, the older one will eat anything and the younger one is very picky. But you know, my older daughter will eat an avocado with a spoon out of the avocado. That's pretty damn easy to prepare. You know, the younger kid, a little more complicated, but yeah, it's all about finding those snacks that they like. Okay. Do you like a cheese stick? That's awesome. Eat all the cheese sticks you want. Um, and so in my household, it's about, you know, we have those foods that all you can eat and then, you know, Zevia cheese sticks. Uh, and then we have those foods that we moderate, uh, you know, fruit. We, we love fruit, but

you can't eat six oranges. And when I was a kid, I would eat six oranges. Um, and I was binging and now I know my body was looking for sugar. And in our low-sugar household, my little daughter's the same way. She will eat six oranges if I let her, and so we moderate that stuff. Do you let your kids make their own decisions outside of your house? We try to. We try to give them as much autonomy as possible. I think in both dietary choices and as a parent, I believe, you know, the best decisions come from let's call it controlled autonomy. That doesn't mean run

across an eight lane highway, but it means let's, let's cross the street together and you're going to look as well as I am at the traffic and I'm not just going to lead your way. And so, yeah, I think, you know, we're in a world where as a parent, we've gotten away from letting kids fail. we're in a world where as a parent, we've gotten away from letting kids fail. Right. And that's a, that's a tough place to be. Right. And, and growing up, I failed all the time and I sucked at a lot of things. And, and I think it's, that's healthy. And so, you know, I think, uh, I want to let my kids fail in a controlled way. I would imagine with your upbringing that, uh, you were probably left on your own quite a bit to kind of fend for yourself and learn for yourself, correct? Absolutely. And I think, you know, that's one of the interesting things about today's world.

And it's a blessing and a curse. You know, the kids who grew up in the 80s, like myself, we had a lot of time to ourselves. You know, you came home and three o'clock in the afternoon, mom and dad were not home. You know, and there was a lot of solo time. And I'd be thrown in jail if I did, you know, what parents did back then. And, and so, you know, today's kids have a lot more supervision, but that's not always a positive. Right. And so how do you, as a parent, allow your kids the autonomy and the freedom we had and not hyper control them and not hyper schedule them and let them fail?

Yeah. I've learned just to not look. Yeah. Casey over there is laughing because he's got a 9 million kids, but it's, it's kind of funny. Like they will figure it out. And so, you know, if something really bad happens, someone will come to you crying or whatever, but they'll, they'll get it. They'll get it sorted. Well, right.

And we know how to differentiate between a fighting cry and an injured cry. Right. Right. One of my jujitsu training partners used to say, are you hurt? Are you injured? If you're hurt, walk it off. If you're injured, get off the mat. Um, and, and so, yeah, as long as you're not injured, we're good. And so you're also a huge MMA fan because of, uh, because you're into jujitsu and kickboxing and things like that. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, I started wrestling as a kid and like a lot of sports,

I wasn't great at it, but, uh, wrestling is a technique oriented. And so even if you're a shitty athlete, if you do it long enough, you can get better. Do you have the opportunity to support some, uh, UFC fighters and things like that? We do. We have, you know, what's so great about, about Zevia is there's a lot of folks who are fans of the brand organically and, and then we're able to support them. So, um, two of our folks in the UFC, uh, Nate Diaz and, and Demetrius Mighty Mouse Johnson, actually, who just got traded over to one. I saw that. I was like, what the hell is that about?

Incredible. I mean, and I have to say a great thing for DJ and Ben Askren and great for the fans. I mean, you know, here's two guys who were destined to not fight in those organizations and they flip-flopped and we're going to see Ben Askren in the UFC. We're going to see, uh, Dem the ufc we're going to see uh demetrius over in in one fc so yeah um it's going to be exciting yeah i saw that trade and i was like what does that even mean well and you know what's what's really interesting it's it's they're calling it a trade technically it's it's done in a different way than in most team sports and team sports you assume the contract in this they release these guys from their contracts and sign new contracts. So subtle difference, but kind of interesting.

So is that, is that going to allow Zevia to kind of do a little bit more as far as sponsorship for DJ now? Uh, well, I think definitely, you know, uh, DJ is a huge Zevia fan and it's exciting for us because he'll have a much bigger presence in Asia. That'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think the reality is, is that when you look at guys like, like Nate Diaz and DJ, I mean, they're fantastic spokespeople because they're all about health. And, uh, and I mean, you know, I have the opportunity to spend some time with Nate and I mean, nutrition wise, he is, he's relentless, you know, he's just does, there's no off season, right?

It's just how you live. And, uh, and I just love that philosophy because he doesn't have an off season and on season. He just has a lifestyle. How do you get, um, creative, you know, how, how did, uh, you know, when you're trying to think of, you know, new things, um, what, what is something that you like to do? Do you like to meditate or, or is it just stuff just comes to you here and there? You know, it's, um, for for me, it's a great question. I'd say there's kind of two phases.

There's an information gathering phase, right? And frankly, that's about interacting with people. So, I mean, just some of the conversations we've had today on some of the distinctions between the, you know, how's the Olympic lifting community related to the power lifting community versus the world's strongest man and strongman type competitions. And what are those different audiences looking for? And so just kind of getting that type of information about how people think

about things gives me a lot to think about. And then I go home and say, oh my gosh, okay, well, we need to mix the ginger ale and the cream soda or whatever it is. And there you go. So yeah, it's going out in the world is what stimulates me. And then kind of coming home and stewing on it is how my process works. What about when you were younger? Like, what do you think is something that has driven you towards, uh, this like entrepreneurship? I think the idea of, um, rebelling, frankly, you know, I mean, as a kid, uh, I was into punk music. I was into graffiti and, uh, and, you know, rebellious. I want, I lived, uh, I grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, which is, you know, the home of Harvard university. So that is, uh, one of the

most institutional places you could ever grow up in. Right. And you're in the shadow of this 350 year old institution. And that's really cool and inspiring at the same time though. I was like, okay, that's cool. But how can I free myself from that? How can I run my own shed and rebel? And so that kind of rebellious idea of like, what's the craziest thing you can think of business-wise going head to head against Coca-Cola, right? That's nuts. Who's stupid enough to do that? Well, all right, I'm in. And I think that's what's so exciting about it. And frankly, we are crushing Coca-Cola. Ask a hundred people who are health oriented, Coke or Zevia. It's not even a contest. That's like a joke. And so I think, you know, my,

my idea and my vision is that we want to take over soda one population at a time. Athletes, yes, serious athletes. We got that. Right. And so then how about the people that they hang out with who maybe aren't as serious and then their friends and, and gradually you start with a tiny niche and expand outward. Suddenly you own the whole thing. You're going to have to get that Mountain Dew guy that lost all his teeth. Remember? I think there's more than one of those. There's a lot.

Yeah. It's called Mountain Dew Mouth. Yeah. Mountain Dew Mouth. Was that in that sugar movie? That was, I was. Yeah. Literally.

Yeah. Called that sugar movie. That sugar movie. Yeah. Have you seen that? I have. Yeah. I mean, you know, and that's, what's terrifying is, you know, let's face it, sugar's a drug.

Like all drugs, you go to excess and some really horrific things happen to your body. Yeah. It is crazy. It's going to be, it's going to take a lot, a lot of companies like this. You know, we need, we need a lot of help. Well, and I think, you know, what's, what's unfortunate is that people are so short-term oriented, right? Because let's face it, there's a lot of people out there. You can sell them something that's really sugary, and they're going to buy it.

And they're going to buy it the first time and the 10th time. And then it's not until the 50th time they're going to say, hey, maybe that shit's not that healthy. And so in that 49 times, you made a bunch of money, right? That's the epitome of short-term thinking. And by then it's too late to get that consumer to consume anything else. Exactly.

And, you know, I think we go at it the opposite way is we go at it by saying, what can we do when we wake up in the morning to make the world a better place? And, you know, I get letters literally every week from people saying, you've changed my life. That, I didn't even have to get paid. That justifies coming into work.

That's incredible. And so that's what we're trying to do. Just one consumer at a time. Because of the way your product is, does it make your marketing strategy pretty simple? It does. Cans in hands. It like, the story's kind of already told.

You have multiple flavors so people can try different ones, right? Well, exactly. And I think, you know, one of the things that I tell people is because sometimes you know i'll talk to someone and say yeah i tried that cream soda and that shit is horrible and i'd say well you know you just haven't found your flavor and you know me personally that's after you give a roundhouse kick yeah no i mean we treat everyone with respect and and you know i don't mind if you

don't like cream soda i'm not offended try the ginger ale or try the root beer or whatever. And so. It was like, I'm not offended that you're completely wrong and stupid. Hey, I can't, you know, flavor is so personal. And sometimes we'll get, you know, someone will tell me, oh my God, I had this and it tasted weird. And I said, well, hang on a sec. What were you eating? Oh, you were having a chorizo burrito.

Well, you know what? That actually impacts your taste buds and how you taste things. Now try this product again without the chorizo burrito. Well, you know what? That actually impacts your taste buds and how you taste things. Now, try this product again without the chorizo burrito. Oh my God, it tasted great. That actually makes a lot of sense. If you're eating like a, you know, McDonald's Big Mac, you know, something's got so much flavor to it that it might kill the flavor of whatever it is you're drinking with. Well, and there's certain Zevia flavors I have with certain products. Right. You know, like the ginger stuff to me

goes really well with spicy food. Right. So I made a jerk chicken stew this weekend. Really spicy. The ginger ale, that was great. I'm not going to drink a grape soda with it. That'll taste shitty. Right.

And so it's about kind of pairing those foods appropriately. We've talked about this with our kids. Like they don't know how to, they don't know how to make their own frozen, their own frozen yogurt at the frozen yogurt places. My kids are constantly experimenting and I have to tell them, I'm like, guys, grape and ginger ale does not taste good. Trust me. Now, grape and zebra and strawberry zebra, that's awesome. It's like a sweet tart. But you got to have compatible flavors and grape and ginger

ale is lousy. What do you guys do ice cream wise since you're kind of a low sugar household? We do a couple of things. When we want to stay really pure, we make popsicles out of like cream soda. I mean, that is awesome. Cream soda, grape zevia, and black cherry make great popsicles. When we want to be a little more indulgent, you know, we're big Halo Top fans. There's a great new brand of ice cream called Rebel. And I got to meet the founder recently. So imagine Halo Top says, we're going to take the sugar out. You got to replace it with something protein or fat. Well, in their case, they use some protein. Rebel uses fat. So it's a high fat ice cream with no sugar.

Awesome stuff. Sold. I want to try some of it. I actually, uh, I think I came up with a new flavor for you because when we were, when we were messing around with them out there, shaking them up and stuff, I ended up having a ginger root beer and the cream soda at the same time and it's amazing yeah yeah it's awesome i mean and i think that's what's so cool is we have fans who are really passionate and they're constantly experimenting and matching stuff yeah and with drinks and whatever and yeah so and and that in in fact that's kind of how our product line is expanded in part you know so we found we did a lot of research with our consumers and we found they use the product in such different occasions. So, you know, a lot of people were waking up and they're drinking a cola. Okay, gosh, that's a pick me up. So we made an energy line. A lot of people are saying, you know, uh, at the end of the day, I'll drink a, you know, a Jack Daniels and ginger ale. Okay. So we made a mixer line and made a ginger beer. Other folks said, you know, I add water to the product because it's a little too sweet. So we made a sparkling water line that was a little lighter.

And so each of those usage occasions and kind of times of the day turned into a product line for us. What's some of the goal with expanding? You know, how are you guys working on that? Well, I think, you know, so much of what we've done has been in grocery stores and six-packs that people are taking home. And to your point, gosh, wouldn't it be great if my kid's school had Zevia? You know, here's the crazy one. Imagine you go in for surgery and I've been through four eye surgeries in the last four months. So I've been to the hospital a lot. You go in and they give you a diet Coke. Are you fucking kidding me? I mean, seriously, you're, I'm here to be healthier. Yeah. Um, so they feed you just garbage too, pretty much. Well, exactly.

And so we're finding more and more hospital systems are getting rid of soda. Uh, university of Pennsylvania healthcare system, which I think is 11 facilities just announced they're getting rid of soda. Well, they're going to bring in Zevia. So healthcare education restaurants, right? You know, you go to a coffee shop or a restaurant. Why are you giving me a sugary soda with 50 grams of sugar, right? Just give me a zero calorie soda with my chorizo burrito or whatever it is. And so, yeah, I think, you know, individual consumption, restaurants, food service, that's a huge opportunity for us. What do we got for coffee?

Coffee's interesting, you know. I'm not a coffee drinker, but I'm huge opportunity for us. What do we got for coffee? Coffee's interesting. You know, uh, I'm not a coffee drinker, but I'm a big coffee fan. And so as you see, we have a tea line now. So, you know, it's one step at a time. And, and, you know, what I like to say is, is if it's, if it's a beverage, it could be an opportunity for us. Right. That makes a lot of sense. Uh, my brother passed away years ago, my oldest brother, Mike, I talk about it a lot here on that podcast and it ended up changing my life and ended up sparking, uh, you know, what is now this facility that you're in today. Uh, your brother passed as well.

Yeah. Um, and it sounds like it was a job related accident. That's exactly right. Yeah. He was a paramedic and was in a car accident, but I, I think, you know, like you said, it's those moments that you realize, you know, we don't know how long we have. Yeah, I better get moving. I got to get my act together because this could be my last day.

And, you know, I'm sad to say I've had a number of friends pass in the last 10 years. And it's a wake-up call. And you hit 50 years old. I've got friends dropping left and right. I don't know what the hell's going on around here. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. You hit 50 years old and you realize, man, I think it's safe to say we're on the back half here. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. You hit 50 years old and you realize, man, we, we, I think it's safe to say we're on the back half here. So, um, you know, and that, if anything, I think redoubled my efforts to just squeeze every drop of juice out of life because we don't know

what's going to happen tomorrow. And, you know, it's interesting. My wife and I talk about it a lot. Every time I get on a plane, the last thing I do is I take a selfie and I tell her I love her. Cause we just don't know. Right. That's actually, I think a huge part of being successful too, is that I think you start to get more and more paranoid. Well, yeah. And I think, you know, and you enjoy, you live in the moment more, right? Because we know tomorrow may not come. Right.

And if I'm spending my day worrying about, can I be successful in the future? Then I've already lost, right? I got to enjoy what I got today. And this is success, right? You have this incredible studio with this beautiful facility and people whose lives are changing every day. If that's not success, I don't know what is. Oh, it feels great. Yeah, it's exciting. Does your wife work for Zevia as well? Or is she kind of more just behind the scenes?

My wife, Jera, is the inspiration for everything Zivia does. I mean, she's a genius. And so she was fortunate to grow up in the natural foods business. Her parents started Kashi. And so from age four, it's really been in her DNA. And so she's worked in marketing for a long time. And so she's very active in terms of product development and our consumer marketing. And she is our consumer. And so she's very active in terms of product development and our consumer marketing. And, you know, she is our consumer. And so, yeah, she's a huge resource. She's not a full-time employee for the company, but she's right there with me on really every strategic decision I make. You guys doing some stuff overseas as well, I'd imagine?

We're doing, we have a big business in Canada. And the number of inquiries we get from around the world is insane. And the number of inquiries we get from around the world is insane. And, you know, what's interesting is we talked a little bit about CrossFit is a big community for us. And the CrossFit community is very international. And so, you know, we're getting tremendous demand from around the world. And I would say it's not if, but when. Right. What do you think the biggest turn was with the company?

You know, the company's growing quite a bit now. And what was the biggest kind of turning point if there's been one yet? You know, I'm not sure there has. I mean, I think taking the color out was probably what it was. So we did a couple of changes simultaneously. We removed color. We removed erythritol and went to a stevia-only formula. And that change took us from, like, I think nine ingredients to four stevia only formula. And that change went, took us from like,

I think nine ingredients to four. Oh, wow. That was huge. Yeah. So, so all that happened at once. And so wait, simple, you know, handful of simple plant-based ingredients, no sugar, alcohol, and, and it tastes great.

So that was kind of the game changer, I think, and no color. And then, you know, you can't, you only focus on what you can control. We didn't create or control the sparkling water phenomenon, but what an incredible tailwind for us, right? All of a sudden you see two beverages. One is this brown syrupy thing and one is clear. And Zevia looks a lot like the clear one. That sounds great, right? And so if people like sparkling water, they like the taste of a healthier, better for you, clear beverage.

So it's been huge. Yeah. I felt like with this company that it's been, you know, it's been inching along, but there's never been like one single, you know, there's never been like an Oprah moment. No. And I think, you know, that it's consistent with our philosophy is, you know, we don't, we don't win by being flashy or anything like that. We win by grinding it out and just being 1% better every day. And when you look at the folks we align ourselves with, I think that's so key to the ethos of the company. I mean, Nathan Diaz, a great example, right?

Nate doesn't go in and knock guys out with one punch. He takes them out with attrition, right? You're going to get hit with a thousand punches and you're done. And I think, you know, that's what we're all about. We're going to hit you a thousand punches and you're done. And I think, you know, that's that's what we're all about. It's it's we're going to hit you a thousand times and we're not going to stop and we're going to be relentless. And we're not going to have a Super Bowl ad, but we're going to find you and we're going to find you again and again and again. In testing these products in the beginning, was there ever any like stomach issues? Because, you know, they did have sugar alcohol. You ever end up.

I think you're going to the poop question. I poop story, the poop story. Well, so I'll start by saying I have a cast iron stomach. Okay. My wife laughs at me because, uh, when I, one time we had a fruit salad and it was a little old and I was like, that thing was so good. I said, but the strawberries, they were really good. They were fizzy. And so fizzy strawberries is like a joke in our house, but somehow I didn't get sick. So when we bought Zevia, there were 14 grams of erythritol

in a can of Zevia. Wow. And so I don't have any first-hand stories because I have a cast iron stomach, but I used to drink like six of those a day. Other people though, oh my God, they were like,

get me away from that shit. In one end out the other, right? Yeah. 14 grams of erythritol times a few of those. Yeah. That was, that's ugly.

Yeah. I never exposed to that much before. Yeah. Well, so getting rid of erythritol is huge. Yeah. Right. And so we've avoided the poop stories because of that.

So I'm so sorry to disappoint you guys. You got to talk to more erythritol-medicine people. We'll talk to some consumers back in the early days. Have a lot of the different iterations come from just taking stuff out, not necessarily like that flavor or a combination? It's a little bit of everything. So, you know, as an example, you know, when we started Stevia, which has been used for thousands of years in Latin America, it was like eight years old as an ingredient in the U.S. And so we were starting with a lower purity ingredient, and we didn't really know how to use it. And I remember one of the times when we used a more pure Stevia and we got rid of erythritol, and I said, wow, what I thought was like a citrus note in the ginger ale was actually sweetener aftertaste.

And so, yeah, I mean, it's the flavor and the sweetener really work together. And so you improve the sweetener, you're going to improve the flavor. And some of those, like the sparkling flavored waters that you had mentioned, why is stevia the superior sweetener? Because a lot of those they use, you know, the erythritol, I can't even pronounce it, but like sucralose and stuff. Cause like I see them and I think they taste pretty good. Um, yeah, Zevia tastes really good and it's made with Stevia. I just, because I listened to podcasts and you know, I'm here on this podcast, I know Stevia is superior, but there's a lot of people that don't understand why. Well, exactly. I mean, what I start with is, and it's so great when you can have someone with the

plant and they chew the leaf and they're like, oh my God, this thing is so sweet. So, you know, I always tell people, wouldn't you rather have a plant than something made in a lab, right? And that sounds kind of vague, but now kind of digging into it more, there's a couple of things we know. Artificial sweeteners, aspartame has a lot of the worst effects, but, you know, you talk to folks who are diabetic and neuropathy, which is the tingling you get in your extremities from poor circulation, people believe that Aspartame accentuates or makes neuropathy worse. So a lot of diabetics avoid it because of that. What we're also finding out though about artificial sweeteners is they're really impacting our gut bacteria, right? And we know that that's so critical for digestion and keeping a healthy balance of bacteria in our body. So you wonder why, how do people who

are drinking so much Diet Coke gain weight? Well, it could be because they're eating a lot of shitty food, right? And they think, oh my God, I got rid of my sugar. And actually they're drinking salad dressing and ketchup and high sugar stuff, right? But also it could be this gut bacteria things. And so, you know, again, back to what we started with, it's just food to the, as close to its natural state as possible, minimally processed. Stevia is a plant-based ingredient, close to its natural state, minimally processed. That sounds good to me. How do you guys like get it and transport it and whatnot? So it's grown in the fields and it's not genetically modified. We use a non-GMO variant, but all agriculture obviously is dependent upon breeding.

And so they've bred these stevia plants to be, first of all, if you grow it in your garden, like we have it in Hollywood, it's pretty spindly and thin, but the stuff that we grow commercially is really bushy. So it's like two feet tall. It's really bushy. You pick the leaves and interestingly, it's processed similar to tobacco. So basically you pick these leaves and then you dry them out. You grind them up into a powder and you extract it basically like a tea. You brew it and you spray dry it and it turns into a powder and then you transport that powder. Gotcha. That's interesting. I've heard people talk about that before where you got to spray dry that because sometimes they're not like water soluble, right?

Exactly. Well, yeah. But the spray drying and we're able to, we do actually have an, we extract it with organic alcohol. And so, yeah, you know, sometimes you can, We extract it with organic alcohol. Right. And so, yeah, you know, sometimes you can, right, any agricultural commodity you can, through a frankenfoods process, you can render it nasty. Right. These nasty chemicals and methanol and stuff like that. So, yeah, we don't use any of that.

Right. What would be your message to someone listening to this that, you know, wants to start their own business? Wow. Well, I would say don't give up. Um, you know, you, no one is ever going to believe you. Uh, and if they don't believe you, don't be dissuaded by that. And, um, what else would I tell them? I'd say, write something down on paper. Cause it took you a very long time to get to this point. I know that you've been successful with other businesses and things like that, but, um, you know, you, you went to Harvard and while you're at Harvard, you were, uh, working for UPS and you just, you've done the things that you had to do to get you to get you by.

And then it led to this, you know, later on, but it takes decades, right? Well, yeah. And I think every business experience, you're going to learn something, right? And so I'm a big believer in, um, you know, humility as a business person, meaning there's nothing I'm going to, if I see a piece of paper on the ground, I'm picking it up. Uh, if the toilet needs to be unclogged, I'm doing it right. And not being too proud to do anything ever learning from every interaction, even that consumer who's like, fuck you. I hate this stuff.

You're going to learn something from that instead of just walking away, try and draw them out. Well, what is it that you really hated about it? And let me work on that. And so, you know, one of the things I do, my first job was delivering newspapers. Okay. And I was, and what's wild is when we were kids, kids did jobs that now adults do. Right? Right.

Newspaper delivery is a grownup's job nowadays. But I had one of these routes where you not only delivered, you had to go collect. So I had to collect like a buck 25 from these people every week. And what a fascinating experience, right? You knock on some people's door, they're great. You knock on some people's door, they don't answer. And then you knock on some people's door and they're like, I'm not paying. You just told a nine-year-old kid you're not paying.

What the hell? And you learn from those experiences, right? And so, you know what? I've had a lot of doors slammed in my face, but you know what? It always goes back to, oh yeah, I remember that asshole who told me he wasn't going to pay when I was nine. I've been through this. I know how to deal with this. And so every one of those experiences builds on itself. And so, you know, last year my kids had a spring fair at school and they had raffle tickets they were trying to sell. So we went to Whole Foods and I put them in front of Whole Foods, six and eight years old, go at it guys. And what an experience, half an hour of that. It was like, you know, five years of business school because you had those people who were

really cool. You had those people who pretended they didn't see you. Literally, you're walking by me. You didn't see me. And then you had those people who just refused. And so business is about learning to deal with people. It's a tough world out there nowadays. No one has cash. No one has any cash. No, exactly.

People are splashing credit cards and my kids don't know what to do. But no, I mean, it's, so if you learn from an early age, how to interact with people and how to learn from those interactions, that's the, that's the foundation of business. That's great. That's a great lesson for your kids to learn too.

It was incredible. And they were, you know, there were some dejected moments. They're like, are you kidding me? And then there was the, you know, the amazing person who came out and gave them five bucks and they're like, this is awesome. Oh, that's super cool. Yeah. It was a great experience. Who inspires you?

Like, you know, we're all on Instagram. We're all on social media. Like who's somebody you're checking out their page and getting, you know, excited to like go work out or, or anything hits you like that? There's a lot of people who inspire me. Nate Diaz inspires me because, I mean, so, so here's a story about Nate. I think, you know, one of the things that, that inspires me is people who are allowed to, who allow themselves to remain humble.

Okay. Here's a guy who's, who's a, a themselves to remain humble. Okay. Here's a guy who's, who's a, a world-class athlete. Okay. He goes out and he competes in triathlons. That's the totally different sport. How many professional athletes do you know that will go compete in another sport? Michael Jordan, that didn't work out so well. Bo Jackson, right? Yeah. Okay. Um, but very few will do that because it's terrifying, right? And they don't want to be anything but world-class and Nathan, he's a bad-ass triathlete. Don't get me wrong, but he goes out there and he puts it on the line. So that's an inspiration. We have a CrossFit athlete, a woman, a young woman named Kayla Stefano just turned 18 years old. She is an animal. She's a

junior national Olympic lifting champion and a two-time teen champion in the CrossFit Games. So this young girl, 16, 17 years old, oh my God, watching her compete, it's just, she's an animal. So people like that inspire me. It's crazy what some of the CrossFit people can do. And my powerlifting fans always get all pissed off about it, but it's incredible, all the different things they can do. They're good at multiple movements and then they're strong on top of it. And you're like, well, exactly. And look, it's always easy to throw stones, right? We look at an MMA guy and a Muay Thai person says, well, geez, I could kick better than that. Or you look at a CrossFit or a triathlon and you say, well,

Jesus Christ, the guys in the Tour de France would kill those guys. Um, but you know, and there's Kayla. Yeah. I mean, she is just incredible. Um, and, and so yeah, if you specialize in something, you're going to be better, but, uh, and so you're probably looking at her form and saying, Jesus Christ, look at how she's bending her back or whatever. It's the same thing. I mean, you hear it from boxers all the time. When they watch MMA, they're like, why would anybody throw a punch like that? Cause you got some guy trying to take you down.

And the guy might, might kick you in the face or kick you in the shin or tackle you or like, you don't really know what's going to happen. Well, exactly. And so, and that's what I just love is the, the idea that you can throw someone into something that they might suck at and they're going to try and do their best. Right. And, and, uh, you know, that's why I had so much fun out in the gym before this. Right. Yeah. I've been sedentary for 18 weeks and we went out there and I'm doing the bamboo bar. That was crazy shit, but it was so fun. Yeah, there's not a lot of people that like to do stuff like that because it makes them vulnerable, right? But being outside your comfort zone is so, it's so satisfying.

Right. Yeah, there's something to it for sure. Got anything else over there, Andrew? How do we convince people that soda's shitty for them? Because it's literally everywhere. I mean, people don't even, like, it doesn't even come, like, it's not even a thought in their head that they're drinking, like, something that's killing them. Well, yeah. And I think, you know, what I tell people is if you did one thing to get healthy diet-wise, stop drinking sugar. Right? stop drinking sugar. Right. And that whole idea of the drinking sugar, you know, someone said to me recently,

they broke it down and said, no beverage should have calories unless it has alcohol or protein. Okay. That sounded crazy. And then I was like, okay, wait, tea doesn't have calories. You know, Zevia doesn't have calories.

It's not a bad rule. I drink milk. Okay. That's got protein. And so, you know, that really breaks it down. And half of our added sugar is coming from beverage. So if you're going to do one thing to get healthier, stop drinking sugar. If you're going to do one thing on the exercise side, it's find a commitment to doing something to push your body every day.

Right? And, yeah, that's what I tell people. Just do something. Mm-hmm. Yeah, one of my good friends, his dad, you know, drinks six or seven sodas a day and he tries to have these conversations with them and he's like, dad, it's just, it's just killing him. And he's like, I don't want to hear it. You know, I, he's just as stubborn about it. He just wants to keep drinking these sodas. And

as many times as they've tried, you know, they've tried to have him have iced tea. And I don't know if they've, uh, actually I think they have tried Zevia on him, but, um, he's just addicted to the actual sugar. Well, you know what I, so one of the things we do in our household and this has really been effective is this idea of a sugar budget. Okay. We can't go to zero. That's impossible unless, I mean, well, it's, it's ideal, right? But it's, it's virtually impossible.

And so we do a sugar budget. We say you got 50 grams a day and that's all sugars. And so how does that then come into play? What I always encourage people, if you're gonna have sugar, eat sugar, don't drink it. And so my kid and I were in Trader Joe's a while ago and she wanted a lemonade juice box. And I said, Sage, she's six at the time,

let's look at the nutrition facts, 20 grams of sugar. Would you rather have that or, and then, you know, all of these kids snacks typically have 10 grams. Would you rather have two apple squeezes or a mini thing of ice cream or this juice box? It's a no brainer. No kid in their right mind is ever going to take the juice box. And so as adults, we can put that into play as well. The ice cream's got some protein in it. Well, exactly.

And the ice cream is going to fill you up. And that's what's incredible. You can get 100 grams of sugar from orange juice, a couple glasses of orange juice. We can chug that, right? To get that same 100 grams of sugar, that's six jelly donuts. Right. Good luck eating six jelly donuts. You're going to get to that third one.

You're like, I'm about to heave. I'm done. Depends. We're powerlifting. I challenge you. I want to see you eat those six jelly donuts. No, I I mean, seriously, and you can't do that all the time. And yet people can drink those two glasses of orange juice every fucking day. And so if you, if you force yourself to budget that sugar and allocate the budget, yeah, there's some days where you'll blow the budget out. And then there's some days where you're underspend and, and that

just ends up being your baseline. And that's how I do it. And so, you know, what does that mean? Well, you know, my, my milk is going to have like 12, 13 grams just from the lactose. My banana, depending on how ripe it is, is going to have a bunch or an apple or whatever. But if I- Yeah, like a green banana has like no, no sugar in it. Yeah, exactly. My kids like it as green as possible. See, I like them ripe. So it's more like 15, 20 grams. But even so, if you're tracking that, then you know exactly where you are and you can make those informed decisions. And so, you know, I was at a kid's birthday party this weekend.

And, of course, my kid ate the icing and brought the cake to me. I'm like, you know what? I didn't even have any fruit today, so I can have some of that cake. And it's all about that budget and just knowing where you're at. And that's how I stayed with it for 18 years. With your team at Zevia, how are you making all these things happen? You're starting to develop new products and stuff, and I'm sure you have a great team behind you, but sometimes I'm sure you're also giving them some crazy ideas and they're probably like, oh shit, I don't know how. Well, yeah. I mean, one of the things we do

have discipline in that I know my ideas are crazy. And so I keep them to myself and I'm good at not interfering and just coming in and spouting off. We're going to make a grape and ginger ale flavor. But now one of the things we do is, and it's a real core philosophy of what we do is everyone is an owner in the business. And so we all think like owners, right? So we may have 60 employees of whom 20 or 25 are salespeople, but if we're all owners, we're all salespeople. And that's, what's so cool. And so, you know, give you a great example. The individual who discovered that Nathan Diaz is a Zevia fan is our shipping coordinator. And Luke came to me and he said, Hey, Patty, you know, I was watching

the UFC pre-show and I saw Nate Diaz and he was drinking a Zevia. Well, one thing led to another and now, you know, we work with Nathan. And so that insight would never have come to me if it hadn't been for Luke, our shipping coordinator. And so everyone on our team is just thinking of ways we can extend the brand. And what's so cool is we have these diverse interests. And so, you know, maybe someone's into Ultimate Frisbee and somebody else is going to dog shows and, you know, we're the fighter soda and we're the CrossFit soda, and maybe we become the dog groomer soda, you know, and, and your, your business opportunity many times follows your personal passion. And so if we have people who are owners in the business,

they're excited about coming to work every day, they're going to find opportunity. And that's what's so cool. Do you guys think you'll ever branch out into other products as far as like, not just drinks? I have so many ideas, you know, that great Beastie Boys line. I got a million ideas. I haven't even rocked yet. Yeah. And, and I know I have a zillion, but it's all about the discipline to separate the good ones from the great ones and to do them in sequence. Yeah. Cause Casey right here, he just recommend or ask for like a Zevia chew. Yeah. Zevia bud light. Exactly. Well, and then you look at that and like, you know, my, my seven-year-old daughter loves strawberry jam. I'm like, God, why does it have to have so much sugar? Yeah. The entire jam category is like the size of a cream soda, right?

One more flavor of Zevia and it's bigger than the entire category of preserves and spreads. So we have to kind of prioritize beverage as a gigantic category. Our existing categories are $650 billion. So we've got a lot of work to do on that before we branch out. And I think, you know, it's all about trying to do one thing reasonably well, as opposed to a lot of things kind of half-assed. Well, that's exciting to think, you know, in the future, what could come. Well, exactly. And you think of everything that's on your table, that's full of sugar. Why the hell don't we have a zero or low sugar alternative?

You're the CEO now, correct? That's right. Do you, what do you think the company will look like 10 years from now? Can you ever envision where you're not the CEO? That's a great question. Hopefully. I think what's exciting about what's happening in our world vis-a-vis sugar is that we've got this generation of kids growing up knowing it's unhealthy. I had no clue. It took until I was in my 30irties to actually discover that.

And so that's inspiring to me. So yeah, hell yeah. I'm hoping there's some kid who's 18 years old right now, who 10 or 15 years from now is going to be the person, um, and she'll be leading the charge. Yeah. Somebody will probably just pay you to stay home. They'll say, get the hell away from the company with your crazy ass ideas. Come to our Christmas party.

And that's all you're invited to. Exactly. And my daughter, Layla, you know, she said to me the other day, she said, dad, I think I might take over Zevia. Oh, there you go. In addition to being a, you know, a kindergarten teacher and a children's book author and an actor and whatever. Zevia is of interest to her. So you never know.

She's going to do all that at one time. Yeah. That's awesome. That's great. You got people in their twenties who don't know what they want to do. Well, exactly. We'll figure it out later. She already has it figured out.

You know, what is it that we want to do? We want to have fun every day. We want to control whatever we can of our lives. And we want to have a roof over our head. And beyond that, I'm open. Everything else is just a bonus. Exactly. And I think that's what's so cool.

If you have that open-minded attitude toward life. I mean, if someone told me I'd be running a soda company, I never would have believed it. And I didn't know anything about soda and why am I good at that anyway? So you fall into these things and all of a sudden here you are. Yeah. That's awesome. With your kickboxing background, have you ever competed? I haven't competed in Muay Thai. I've competed a lot in jujitsu, you know, some great results and some lousy ones. Um, but kickboxing is the one thing I've always wanted to get in the ring amateur wise. Um, after a detached retina and four surgeries, I'm kind of like, geez, I, well, at least I've been through it. Right. I know if I got a detached retina, I know how to deal with it.

But if that's a likely outcome, is that the brightest thing? I'm not sure. So, you know, it's one of those things I hate letting a dream die, but being a 51 year old competing against a 26 year old was already going to be daunting. And with the few eye surgeries behind me, I'm not sure it's the brightest thing. Right. Uh, does the training kind of do enough for you? Do you get to spar and things like that? Mix it up with people here and there? Uh, well, jujitsu definitely. And that's really satisfying, but you know, kickboxing, I am going to have to think long and hard before I can get hit in the face. Yeah. Yeah, it'd be tough.

Yeah. Well, it's just, I mean, you know, the recovery from retina surgery is the worst thing I've ever been through. You know, I've now had four eye surgeries and three sports surgeries in the last five years. And I can tell you the retina ones were by far the worst. What happened to your eyes? Anything in particular? It was just random. And so I'd tell anybody, if you start to see a little bit of dark, looks like dark glasses in the corner of your eye, go to the doctor. Because it was 8%,

and then it was 25% of my vision, then it was half of my vision. Just denying it the whole time. Like, I'm totally fine. It was only three days. But then next thing I knew I was in emergency surgery and it sucks. I got eight stitches in my eyeball this summer. Wow. And I was asking the doctor, I'm like, do you go into the same hole or a fresh eyeball? He's like, no, fresh. So I have like scars on my eyeball.

So having been through that, I don't know if I want to sign up for that again. So avoiding a detached retina is probably high on my list at this point. And then what were some of the other injuries? So four retina or four eye surgeries. I had a torn pec, which was a jujitsu, a torn bicep, which was kickboxing and a hernia, which was from birth, but manifested itself in jujitsu.

So, you know, it's like a car, right? If you get a flat tire, you're going to turn your car in and stop driving. No, you're going to get the damn thing fixed. So until the wheels fall off, that's what I'm doing. A lot of times, you know, people will see the success you have and they'll be like, well, why? You know, why are you competing so damn hard every day? Why don't you chill, bro?

That's so boring to me. And I'll tell you this, 18 weeks of sitting in a dark room, recovering from retina surgery, it was the worst time of my life. I couldn't do anything. And I would rather exercise and throw up than be calm in a dark room and nothing to do. Yeah. I mean, it was miserable. And it was just that feeling of not having any control over your life. And I think that's really what it comes down to.

And when you work out, you do have control over your life. And it may be miserable, but you're the one in control. And if it's that bad, you can stop. When you're sitting recovering from surgery, there's no escape. And that's what sucks. Anything else, Andrew? No, I'm good, man. All right, guys. That's it. That's all the time we got for today. Where can people find you? They can find us at Zevia.com and, uh, any grocery store around the country, Amazon and, uh, yeah, don't drink sugar. Strength is never a weakness. Weakness is never a strength.

Catch you guys later.