Mark Bell's Power Project - Power Project EP. 21 - Kevin Ross

Episode Date: March 19, 2018

Kevin Ross paid us a visit, accompanied by MegaMind Jesse Burdick, for another episode of Mark Bell's Power Project. Kevin is a highly decorated Muay Thai Kick Boxer with an impressive 45-14 record and currently holds the Bellator Kickboxing Featherweight Championship Belt. ➢Subscribe Rate & Review on iTunes at: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-bells-power-project/id1341346059?mt=2 ➢Listen on Stitcher Here: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/mark-bells-power-project?refid=stpr ➢Listen on Google Play here: https://play.google.com/music/m/Izf6a3gudzyn66kf364qx34cctq?t=Mark_Bells_Power_Project ➢Listen on SoundCloud Here: https://soundcloud.com/markbellspowerproject ➢SHOP NOW: https://markbellslingshot.com/ FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell ➢ Snapchat: marksmellybell

These lights make you look better, right? Or do they add 10 pounds? The camera adds. The cameras add 10 pounds. So each. One, two, three, four, five, six. So they add 60 pounds. Yeah.

They, from the small camera over here, where I can see an image, I can see that your head is really tan. I also look really pale. This is, can you make this, is this tanning me? So those are tanning bulbs. Those are tanning bulbs. Yeah, I knew you were coming. Good. And I knew that you would be, I knew that you'd want to be more tan.

Remember the Arnold when the Lillibridges were around, and they told Andy that you're using melanotan? Oh, yeah, and she was like, what? She was just like, what the hell is that? So there's and they told Andy that you're using melanotan. Oh, yeah. And she was like, what? She was like, what the hell is that? So there's this injectable stuff that you can use. My wife never knows what's going on. She has no idea.

Injectable tanning. It's injectable tan. But, and you were, you looked like you'd been in Puerto Rico for like two months. She never knows what's going on. And the Lillibridges are just kind of that color anyways. Yeah. Because they're in tanning beds all the time. Yeah, they're in tanning beds all the time. Yeah, they're in tanning beds all the time.

So they're like, wait a second. Like, what are you, are you tanning now? And then they're like, oh no, melanotan. And they were talking about it. And then they told Andy, we're like, wow, that's amazing. And she's like, what? And he's so tan. And she's like, what are you even talking about?

You're taking, you're tanning? People ask her all the time. They're like, do you like Mark when he's like lean like this or when he's bigger? She's like, I don't even notice. I don't know if she just doesn't look at me or. She probably tries not to. Like I used to weigh a hundred pounds more.

Like what? There's got to be something that you're noticing. What do you mean? He lost weight? Is something different? Yeah. Is it? I thought it was just hair.

I thought he was doing his hair differently. No, not so much. A hundred pounds. No kidding. I can he was doing his hair differently. No, not so much. 100 pounds, no kidding. I can't get her attention no matter what I do. Thank you. So we got my man Jesse Burdick here. He comes traveling down from CSA Combat Sports Academy, which is owned by our good buddy, Kieran Fitzgibbons.

And we got this other guy over here that you lugged along with you today. I did. I dragged him out. Who is a well-established kickboxer, Muay Thai fighter, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 fights or so. Pretty close, yeah. Multiple-time world champion in Muay Thai and kickboxing, multiple sports. They seem like they're similar because people are trying to kill each other, but they're quite different.

Rules are quite different. Very different, yeah. Fucking A, man. So just... His name is Kevin Ross as well. Let's make sure we got that on camera. Are we rolling yet? No, that was the graphic was going to come in.

No, there's like music. All right, let's just start over. And there's like a three, two, and one. Go. Go. Oh, wait. Hi, I'm Mark. We're here today with Kevin Ross, ladies and gentlemen.

Any relation to the painter? The guy that would, what is that guy's name? Bob Ross. Bob Ross. No. Not that I know of. But you do paint. A little bit.

Not like that, though. Not happy trees. Mean trees. Angry trees. Mean trees. Not that I know of. But you do paint. A little bit. Not like that, though. Not happy trees? Mean trees? Angry trees? Emotionally damaged trees. You know, childhood trauma trees. Go. Good.

Good. Well, Bob Ross seemed like he was, you know. He seemed like he was a little bit nutty. He was. Yes. He seemed like he had a sensitive side to him. Definitely touched one way or the other. Somewhere.

Somewhere along the way. So, you know, it's become really popular. UFC has taken off quite a bit. MMA has become popular. Why do you think something like Muay Thai fighting or even boxing, like boxing has kind of fallen to the wayside a little bit. Why do you think Muay Thai fighting hasn't gotten, uh, maybe as, as much,

uh, media as, uh, something like UFC? Well, when you look at, uh, MMA and UFC,

you gotta realize how long they were around before they blew up. Yeah. I mean, it was a really long time. I mean, UFC was basically bankrupt when, uh, you know,

they finally blew up and they had the reality show and everything. They went through a lot. So it's really just a matter of the right thing at the right time. And there's so many pieces that need to come together in that right moment in order for that to happen. It just, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. You know, I always ask the same question to everybody that sees the sport and loves the sport and they're like, why isn't this bigger?

And there's really no answer to it other than just those right pieces haven't come into play. Just a lot of exposure. Yeah, with UFC, you end up with a lot of grappling. And sometimes over the years, I mean, it goes through stages where there's like grapplers like Dan the Beast Severin

and there's some grapplers that have kind of dominated the sport and then the sport ends up on the ground and there's's high levels of jiu-jitsu and things of that nature. And now the sport kind of seems like it's a little bit more stand-up going on. But in Muay Thai fighting, what are some of the rules? So Muay Thai is all stand-up. I mean, we do have sweeps and stuff, so there's that aspect of the takedowns, but we don't follow it down to the ground. So Muay Thai is very similar to kickboxing and um it's one of those things you

kind of have to tell people it's like kickboxing but but for a muay thai fighter that's kind of like a dig at your heart to say that to people because it's just it is a completely different sport and a different aspect uh muay thai has clenching and uh elbows and and and the rules are are different. And if you have fought both, you really do know how different they are once you're in there. But from the outside observer, it just looks like just kickboxing, just different. What do you think is the main thing that separates you out from some of these other guys? Because you are a multiple time world champion.

And when I've seen like a lot of highlights, I've been following you for years, ever since Jesse told me that he's been training you in some powerlifting and stuff, I've been following along. And I've just noticed that almost everything I see from you, there is a vicious like a leg sweep in there on almost everything that I see. So is that, is that kind of a go-to thing that you end up? It's one of those things I guess I kind of got known for. Unfortunately now in kickboxing, we're not allowed to do that. And so it's like one of those things i guess i kind of got known for unfortunately now in kickboxing we're not allowed to do that and so it's like one of one of my main things got taken away from me as well as elbows how fucking hard is that it's gotta be tough it's really tough and that that's why you

don't really see a lot of uh people transition between both sports because they are so different um i just uh stylistically was able to make that transition cause I did have a good boxing base and, and was more, uh, combination centric and, and things like that, where, where a lot of typical prototypical Thai fighters are very just single hard shots and standing in front of each other. And that's like the typical, when you think of Muay Thai thing, um, but, uh, kickboxing is a lot more numbers, a lot more movement, things like that. So I was just able to make that transition. It's still difficult for me

and I really have to pay attention to what I can and can't do. You have to almost be thinking about it. Yeah, after two years of being signed with Bellator and doing kickboxing, I still have to think about it. And when you're in there thinking about what you can and can't do,

it slows you down. So it's still tough for me to this day, not to, uh, want to do those things. Have you ever broke? Have you ever swept someone or tried to attack a certain way? Did you end up stopping yourself?

Did you end up, I guess it's not really screwing. No, nothing was successful at least. No. I mean, there's definitely times in there when, when it crosses my mind,

I really wish I could LV right now. And I've done, do you tell your opponent that too? It's like, I was going to elbow you right there, but I can't. You would have been really fucked up. I did a few boxing fights in the past just to stay busy. And I did have those guys tell me, like, don't kick me and don't do this. That was a lot more difficult to have so many things taken away from me. You know, where kickboxing which i are at

least relatively close boxing uh that was really tough for me not to do things particularly because i took them on like a week's notice like all four of my boxing fights were on super short notice like that so i didn't really even have any boxing training i just just don't kick or knee them and punch them so that was that was that was really tough for me to do. But doing that and doing other sports has really helped me to kind of develop and be able to turn on and off the different weapons and styles that I can do. When I hear some of the story, I've heard that around 14, you saw some Muay Thai fighting and you got hyped up about it and wanted to figure out how to get involved in it.

And then it's like years later, I think you started doing, you didn't start doing it right away, right? No, I didn't start till I was almost 23. It's almost 10 years. That's like 13 years later than the normal kind of Thai fighters. Yeah, most fighters, Thai fighters or kickboxers, anybody, I mean, around mid-20s, they're know, and I, I didn't even step foot. And they're retiring with like a hundred fights or so.

Yeah, for sure. So, so I was very late in the game and, uh, that was one thing that really kept me from ever, um, kept me from going after it for so long is that I felt like I was too old at that point, you know, and here I am 15 years later, still doing it. So somebody kind of tell you in the beginning, like, Hey, it doesn't work that way, dude. Like you're like, Oh no, I want to work. I want to, you know, work hard. I want to do this. And they just kind of say, Hey, I think it was just like something I knew that, you know, you want to do something that athletically at a high level, you usually got to start when you're really young, you know? So no,

there wasn't really anybody telling me you can't do this. It definitely, it surprised everyone that that was something I do. I mean, back then I was, all I really did was drink and party every single day. I was a full blown alcoholic by the time I was 18, you know, and was just wasting my life in Vegas doing that, drinking myself to death. How'd that get started? Very young. I probably started drinking when I was like 12 years old. And then, you know, growing up in Vegas, it's just, you know, when you have those tendencies, it's a really bad place to be. It's like a candy store just on the really bad level of that.

It doesn't matter where you are. You can end up all the way in Pennsylvania and be smoking pot behind the dugout, right? Absolutely. At 14 like this guy. Yeah. That's a story he shared with us just a couple of days. It's unavoidable. You know, there's drugs and alcohol.

You can find it anywhere. If you're inclined, the before line is everywhere. But, you know, being in Vegas, it's just in your face all the time. Oh, yeah. So it's that much worse. And when you do have those kind of issues, it's just impossible to stay away from it. You know, it's just in your face 24 hours a day. And it's a really hard place.

I wouldn't want anyone to grow up there. Was it something that just kind of like took over your life? Or was it something that you had pain going into and you were kind of like self-medicating even at a young age both i was definitely self-medicating at a young age and um but yeah it clearly took over my life i mean i had literally had to drink every day or else i physically couldn't function i would shake and yeah you know i was like i said would just have, when I was like 18 years old, I was, I was having to drink daily in order to function. Um, so yeah, I, I, for me to, to turn my life around and do what I did, uh, it really just, no one knew what I, really what I was doing. I didn't even know what I was doing, you know? And, and that was another

thing that, that took me so long to get started is like, I don't even know if I can take myself seriously. Like, this is what I want to do. It's crazy. And I didn't feel like I could tell anybody about it. They'd be like, no. What are you thinking? You thinking you can just go do this? Like, what?

What are you going to do? So kind of simultaneously you were starting to explore Muay Thai fighting? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I really, I really, it was one of those things that was, I just had to go all in and I knew that I was going to have to turn my life around and give up drinking and all that and, and just dive into the sport if I wanted to do it. Cause I've just always been that, that type of person that has to do it

all the way or nothing at all. And that went with drinking and drugs too. You know? So, so, um, that, that was another thing that kept me from doing it for so long as I wasn't ready to give that up. You know, I didn't want to stop partying. I didn't want to stop hanging out with my friends. It's like, as soon as I do this, I'm just going to be by myself. And not only that, I don't even know if I can do this. So it was, it was such a, such a tough thing for me to, to really make that decision to to to go after it because i felt like i was risking so much and for no reward so a lot of addicts talk about you know when they are can make a change do make a change hitting some sort of like a bottom

or having some sort of a revelation or some sort of something like was there one for you and i mean is that when the switch to muay thai when when you finally made the decision like you know what fuck this i'm done i'm gonna go over here and do this was there one thing one you know something that happened to a friend or anything or was it just a an accumulation and you just got fed up with it and kind of moved on uh several several things actually um the the one person person I only person I ever told about this dream of, of wanting to be a fighter was one of my best friends, Mo. And he actually passed away when I was 17. I think he, uh, he was actually born with a heart condition and so

wasn't like drugs and things like that. But, but that was actually the thing that really made me realize you need to go after this dream he didn't even get to live he was 17 years old and you're over here pissing your life away drinking and doing drugs every day and and um you know when he died like i said i was 17 that really like sent me down that that dark road even further but every time i would see a fight or things like that it would like pop back up and and and i knew i wasn't ready to go after it. So I would just like go even deeper into this road of drinking and stuff to like try to bury it.

And I was trying to like kill it. I didn't, I didn't want it around because I wasn't willing to go after this and really deal with all my fears and hesitation. So it caused me to just go in the other direction that much more because I wanted, I really wanted to kill that part of me and just ignore it, but I just couldn't, it just constantly would come up. And then after a series of friends dying, almost killing people, going to jail myself, I got pulled over. Were you violent at the time? I was never violent. I think that was the thing that another thing that's like really would surprise people is I

wasn't a violent person. I mean, I'd get get into like like bad altercations and stuff but never from my own self just being this this person looking for fights and stuff you know and um as i said like i had a couple friends going to jail when my friends almost killed somebody drunk driving i i got pulled over drunk driving doing doing over a hundred on the highway for whatever reason, got let go. Um, that was a huge wake up call for me. And, and, and then just after a series of things, like all that happened within this month span of time and did one day I'm sitting there drinking and realizing like, if my friend was still alive, he'd kill me. You know, he was like, he was the one that told me like, why don't you do this? i don't understand why you don't do this you know and uh i just had that realization one day

and woke up and was like i can't deal with this anymore even if i can't make it to where i can make it to which i didn't even know what that was i was like you have to at least try and you have to go after this with everything you have at least least, you know, you, you went for it and got in the gym and that was 15 years ago. And this is where I ended up. And this is crazy to me, you know, like every day, every day is very surreal to me because I still have that same, like, I still feel like I'm back there. Like, I don't feel like there's 15 years of that behind me. I feel like that was yesterday, you know? So, so it's, it's Like, I don't feel like there's 15 years of that behind me. I feel like that was yesterday. Right. You know, so, so it's, it's like, I think anyone with addiction knows that no matter how far away from the last time you did, it was, it's right there.

Still feel very vulnerable in a lot of ways, right? Yeah. Like, like it could be 30 years of not drinking. And I know that one bad day and I'm back right where I was. I think that's what keeps people driven though. You know, you think about like, um, you know, hearing great quotes from people like Tom Brady and stuff, and they'll say, what drives you and what makes you go into training camp so hard?

He's like, I'm just fighting for my job. And you're like, that's fucking Tom Brady. Why is he fighting? He's fighting for his job. Like he, he just earns a job because he's, you know, because he's Tom Brady, but he doesn't view it that way. And he's not viewing it as, I think a lot of people, you know, because he's Tom Brady, but he doesn't view it that way. And he's not viewing it as, I think a lot of people, you know, have the same perspective. You think you kind of had to go through all that to have the fighting mentality that you have today?

For me, I do. Yeah. So much of it when I started was I know how far behind I am from where I should have started and where everyone else is. So I've always felt like I'm playing catch up. I've always felt like I'm decades behind everyone else. And that is what has constantly kept me driven, constantly kept me in the gym, constantly kept me fighting people I shouldn't be fighting or push, really pushing the envelope, you know, because it's like, like one i feel like i'm so far behind and then the the second part of it was i don't feel like i should be here anyway so like

i'm i'm really just like living every day like it's extra credit you know and i and i gotta make the most out of what i have because because so many times i i should should have been dead and should have died when i was 20 years old you you know? And so both of those things have just constantly kept me so driven and focused on this, this thing that I know I can never be where I should be. I can never be good enough in a sense. So, so no matter what I do, no matter how hard I push it, I can't get there. So I have to go as hard as I can, as much as I can and just give it everything I have every, every day.

And every time I get in there. Did you have any sort of stability? Like, is there a parent or an uncle or a grandma or grandpa or somebody who's was around to kind of keep you afloat at least a little bit? Yeah. In the, in the beginning, uh, my, uh, my father really, he, he kind of made the deal with me because, um, you know, I knew that if I was going to do this, I'd like to train with the best trainer I could train with, the one-on-one training. I didn't want to be in classes. As I said, I knew how far behind I was. So I was like, I need to get the best I can get.

It's like, I can't afford this. Like, I don't have a job. I don't have any money, you know. And he actually made a deal with me. He's like, if you quit drinking, I'll take care of everything you have to pay for it. And that, we were actually, i was drinking a 40 at the time he's like you want as i pound this well that's what i thought i was like all right you know come monday you know after this weekend you know we'll do it but he was like well you're drinking

right now and i'm and you know in my mind i, I was like, well, you know, after today, right. And he's like, no. And he's like, all right. And I walked over to the sink and poured it out. And, uh, yeah, like I said, the next day or two days later I was in the gym and yeah, he really, uh, helped me out in that aspect of it, the, the financial aspect of it. But, but as far as other support, um, my girlfriend Gina at the time, um, you know, she was very supportive of me just just seeing me turn my life around which which also inspired her to she came afterwards and and started training more more just uh for something to do to get in shape and stuff and she's just amazing and tremendous athlete and and took to it and like gina carano and movies and shit like that yeah

yeah which is you know i'm like you don't understand how hard I have to try to do this and how much I kill myself. I'm like in the gym all the time. And like, she's so naturally gifted and it just like, it kills me to see like, she's like really doesn't, not that she doesn't try to work hard,

but, but, but how easily it came to her. I'm like, man, I wish I could do it. Like, I literally can't even take a few days off without feeling like i took like two years of backstep you know so so her being there was it

was extremely um helpful and supportive to me and then uh you know my friends they weren't unsupportive i mean they really just thought it was like a fad and like right he's gonna be back in the bar with us in a few weeks but But I think after time, they really saw and realized how dedicated I was to this. And they were really into it and thought it was really cool. I mean, they hated the fact that I couldn't party with them and stuff anymore. But yeah, they were always very supportive after that. And where did you start? Who was your first coach?

I started in Las Vegas. I started at Master Toddy's gym but i was actually training can you explain master toddy a little bit for everyone who doesn't quite understand doesn't know exactly maybe we can pull up a graphic for that for he's he's he's a character anybody's a great name yeah he's a character he is he's very he's similar to don king a lot of ways. And that's in the hairstyle. Hairstyle, just attitude, very just,

he's like a caricature of a person. Yeah. You know, and the most amazing coach I've ever worked with but he also has that kind of

shady side of him too so it's very easy for people to look at him like he's a joke. So he's the shady side of like everybody in boxing, MMA, a little sketch. But he did really have both sides of it because he was such an amazing trainer and really just a genius when it came to teaching people. There you go.

See the graphic? Yeah. That's the man. But actually, he had three other trainers under him. Master Chan, that's who I started with. And then there was two others. And so I did one-on-ones for like the first year.

All I did was, was one-on-one training. And then. On our way up, we were talking about kind of classes, like for Muay Thai classes, as opposed to kind of one-on-ones. And you're also talking about how,

you know, how those are different, how those are taught and how the skills are kind of developed. So with the one-on-ones, what did you start with opposed to what you would have started with in a class setting? I pretty much started hitting pads right away. Okay. You know, and him like killing me every single day. Like it was really brutal and like like it was like getting thrown to the wolves you know like i i really dove into the deep end

where doing classes and stuff it's you know they you have so many different aspects of people are there you got yeah women and kids and and class might be uh somebody that's that wants to be more fit they might be doing it for conditioning. They don't want to like fight. You have to really, uh, gear it to the masses, you know, to, to get, keep everybody covered while there, there might be fighters in there. You still have to, it still has to be applicable to, to, to just casual people, you know, and, and that's really why I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to just, I knew how long that would take you know as opposed to getting that that that full-on uh training but but it's also the really hard way to uh go into it's like diving into college you know and like you're on this uh uh accelerated course you know to get there which

is is brutal but but but that's how you get to where you're at quicker. Same thing with, on the fighting aspect of it. I mean, I immediately was in there fighting guys with 30, 40, 50 fights. I mean, the first guy I ever fought, I think he had 40 something fights and like 20 pounds on me, but, and that was like, like a theme throughout my entire career up until recently, you know, where now I'm on the flip side of that was, was I was fighting guys. Just, I literally had no business on paper being in there with, but going against them, even in losing each time I took such a gigantic step up and my skillset, my mindset, my physical aspects just raised up each time. So I was, I was taking these like quantum leaps every time I fought, even when I was

getting crushed, as opposed to some other people who are picking and choosing who they fight and they want to fight people they can be it's like yeah it might look good and you might have a nice record but you're not growing as fastly as you could and is that do you feel like that's why you're you know kind of as beloved as you are thought of as highly as you are because you weren't necessarily scared to take a fight and you wanted to fight malapet sansai etc you know you weren't you weren't necessarily scared to take a fight and you wanted to fight Malapet, Sanjay, et cetera. You know, you weren't, you weren't going to wait around for, you know, for them to ask you, you would just go out there and, you know, you, you push the envelope and kind of make things happen. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's, that's kind of just what I was known for and how I kind of made a name for myself.

It's kind of the first American to really go out and do that. Correct. It's kind of the first American to really go out and do that, correct? Yeah, there wasn't, that was the thing for me coming up was I didn't have anyone to look at as having done this before. Like, who do I look up to? There's no one to look up to. Other than like, I mean, obviously the high level ties and stuff. But when I started, I mean, this is before YouTube and stuff. I mean, like we could get tapes and stuff, but they were years old. And, you know, there was no exposure. There was no magazine articles. There's no commercials. There's no TV coverage. So like, who do I look to as who do I want to be? Like,

all I can look to is like the elite guys. I'm like, I can never be that good. So, so as I said, like, I felt like I had such a huge gap, you know i didn't i didn't realize really even uh know what i was doing like i didn't realize i was like leading the way and like like honestly even to this day i mean up until a few years ago i didn't even know that this is who i was in this sport you know i didn't know that people looked at me like that i didn't i still think it's weird and crazy like like now i i understand like people mentioning in a live feed on instagram that i was having you on they're like oh a bunch of people wasn't just one person they're like he's fucking icon american icon like boom right away

they were saying yeah it's a very strange thing and as i said earlier like i don't my mindset is still like i just started today you know i't, I don't feel like I'm any different than I was the first day I went in, in, in the sense that I'm just trying to be better. There's no end. There's no point when you just are done and have everything figured out. So I've never changed that mentality. And that's kind of, you know, what has allowed me to, to, to push it as hard as I have and do the things I have, but, but it's called, it's kept me so grounded to where I don't feel any different than the everyday person or the person that just walked in there for their first day. And, and, uh, you know, I don't, I don't feel like I've done really anything, you know, and I know that other people view me that

as this person in the sport and it's, uh, you know, icon and especially in America, but, but I don't feel that way. And I, it really confuses me too. You're just working and you're in a sport and you're just trying to get better. I'm just trying to be better. You're just trying to get better. That was one of the more thing, one of the few things. That's what tracks people even further is that you're not like, you're not outwardly,

you're not trying to pursue success. It's, it's coming at you full speed because you've, you've tracked it because you're working hard. And that's what, one of the things that impressed me the most about Kevin is when I got to work with him with his, uh, after his knee surgery, you know, I gave him a couple of things to do. And I saw him do it like five times that day. Then I'd see him in the gym. He'd be rolling out. He'd be doing stretching, et cetera. And he'd see, he's sitting there with his phone, just with youtube with tie fights on youtube just watching over and over and

over again and i would go back i would train a couple people and i would come back and he'd be on a different part of his body but he'd still be doing the same thing so i mean just watching hours and hours of film and not necessarily the opponent that he was you know coming up to fight but just watching watching fights and just studying and studying. And I kind of saw that. And I even talked to Karen and I was just like, I'd be willing to help Kevin out. You tell him to come and see me, whatever I can do for that guy, because he's a different person because all he's doing is, you know, even when he's sitting there stretching, he's multitasking, stretching, and then also learning how to fight whomever it is or watching for

tendencies or anything along those lines it had to be you know three four hours still doing the same thing you have what's your quote you you can never be uh too good at the basics right never be good enough at the basics and that's something i really try to uh emphasize on when i teach but but um that was something that was really drilled into me is just how important that foundation is. And, you know, that goes across the board in any sport or, or endeavor in life is if you don't have that foundation of, of those basics, you have nothing to build upon or whatever you do build upon is going to fall down, you know? know and i unfortunately i think that's uh not really the mindset these days and a lot of fighting is people they want to skip to the end and they don't go through what they need to go through in order to get there and the problem is a lot of people can for for various reasons but but but once you do you can't maintain there and so rare these days do you see someone that can dominate

at a high level for for even a few few months, let alone years and years and years. It's true because they don't have that foundation. And I think that's the unfortunate side of things gaining in popularity with, with, with the money, with the exposure, people don't want to go through what they needed to go through before, because back in the day,

it was like, you're only doing this because you love it. Like there's no end goal. You're never going to get paid ever. You're never going to be on TV. You're never going to do this. Every single person in the sport when I started was doing it because they absolutely loved it and they didn't want to do anything else.

And it's very different. Has there been any, you know, you talk about how kind of having a solid foundation. Has there been any hiccups along the way? Like it's, you know, I think sometimes it's confusing to people to hear, uh, you know, Jesse and I are two people that have struggled with, uh, addiction in our family. And it's, uh, crazy to hear someone say, yeah, I was, you know, addicted to alcohol. And then I was like, oh, Muay Thai is cool. And then bam, I went into like, it sounds like, uh, just all of a sudden out of nowhere, you're like, you know, hit by, you know, struck by lightning and then you changed, you changed your life

forever. Was there any like setbacks in that? Or is there like, uh, even today, is there stuff that you have to like tell yourself there's something you got to do every day? Or did you have to go to therapy? Did you have to, you know, go to AA? Did you, you know, anything like that? Uh, yeah, well, yeah, there's been tons and tons of setbacks, you know, and I, I think that's when you really need to remind yourself of that

mentality you had in the beginning. Like when I blew my knee out and, uh, I didn't know if I could ever train again, let alone fight again, particularly fight at a high level again, you know, and, and there was a little while in there at like, I really just gave up or got close to giving up. Yeah, your will will waver a lot during those times. It just seemed impossible to me to ever get back here again. And especially, I had already been in the sport for 12 years. I'm already ancient at that time. And now I'm really ancient in, in fighting.

You're in your forties, right? I'm 37. Okay. Come on. There you go. A couple years to go, man. But yeah, it was really tough. And, and, and, you know, I'd like to say that I just, I was all just stayed strong through

the whole thing, but no, I, I, I completely was broken, you know, and I really thought there was no hope. And, you know, I, hearing people continually tell me like how they looked up to me and then like, you know, believed in me and, and all the people over the years just that, that have reached out to me, like really like sunk it in again, just like it did day one was, do you love to do this? Yeah. Can you physically do this? I didn't know that answer at the time, but I'm going to still give it everything I have right before I signed with, uh, Bellator, I went through a series of two really bad knockout losses. I'd never been knocked out before. Um, I lost my world title, had those two losses. And it's like, maybe I can't do this anymore. You know, I, I, I want to still do this, but maybe I physically can't. And you know, after some time I had to sit there and

realize, all right, what are the, what are the questions we have again? Do we love to do this? Yeah. Does that mean we're still going to be the greatest in the world? I don't know, but I still love to do this. So I'm going to still do this physically. Can I do it? And then I went back and watched those fights. I'm like, all right, I got hit really hard. I took a flying knee to the face and I still like bounce back up so obviously your brain's still you can still take some shots like it's not that bad you know if i was like getting knocked out in training and stuff like that maybe we can start questioning whether i can physically do this anymore but since i could still answer yes to those questions then the result of that isn't what the most important

part to me like like can you still be in the top 10 in the world like i don't what the most important part to me, like, like, can you still be in the top 10 in the world? Like, I don't know, maybe I'm just going to be someone in the gym training really hard and trying to be at my best, but,

but I'm not going to give up because this is what I love to do. And it doesn't really matter to me if I can't do it at the same level or, or, you know, the same ability I'm going to to do it cause I love it. Not because I'm getting something out of it, like titles and things like that. It sounds like you're a rational person and that fucking helps a lot. Yeah, it helps.

It helps. It's still hard though. Because with the tattoos on the neck and the blood coming down the face when you're in the ring. I forget about those things. It's like, yeah, no, well, no one would think that he's a rational person. Right. But you're, you're talking yourself through these things.

And I think sometimes that's what can be confusing about addiction is because sometimes people that are addicted to drugs, sometimes they have, um, you know, they have, they have other problems going on. They're bipolar or whatever the case might be. And they're not rational and they can't really talk themselves through it. So you were able to kind of do that. And it sounds like you're still, still doing it to this day. It's a daily thing.

You know, I think with, with all the aspects of the that and it sounds like you're still still doing it to this day it's a daily thing you know i think with with all the aspects of the fighting and then drinking and things like that it's not it's not something you just have that's fixed one day and it's not right i mean even just just training or fighting or power lifting things like that you don't just like have it and don't have to try anymore and just it's you're like set at this level forever, you know, and then that's in anything. If you're not continually like staying sharp and pushing yourself, you're going to deteriorate. And, and, you know, that's something I'm constantly reminded of. And that's why I'm constantly in the gym and constantly like trying to stay as healthy as possible mentally and physically is, is I know as soon as I give up, it's just, it's a,

that's a wrap. Is a pain somehow a motivator? It's a pain and motivator. Um, cause it looks like when I watch you fight, when I watch you fight, it certainly looks like a motivator. Cause I've, I see you getting, you know, you're getting nailed to some good shots and it's probably just, you know, instinct at this point, but you get nailed to some good shots and it looks like then you're, then you're really like in the middle of the fight. You know, we, uh, we were shooting, um, these interviews for this little video we were putting together for me. Um, and I was watching one of my friends, he got asked that question about me and he's like, why do you think that is? And, and I don't like enjoy pain at all. I don't like it at all. I don't want to get hit or do anything.

But what he said really was like a light bulb moment for me. He's like, it's not, I don't think it's that he likes it. I think it's that he knows he can take it more than you can. And that really has always been something for me in fighting and in training is like, I know I can go harder than you and I'll never give up. And,

and no matter, even if I'm not good enough, I know I can go harder than you and I'll never give up. And no matter, even if I'm not good enough, I know I can push that aspect of it. And I think that is what has really allowed me to, to beat a lot of the people I shouldn't have beat is because I am willing to die in there. I'm willing to give every ounce of myself and I'm never going to quit. And you're going to have to kill me to make me give up. And that just that mentality alone is enough to break a lot of people, you know? And so for me, I've always been a person that like, I don't want to knock people out because anybody can get knocked out with the right shot. I want to make people quit because you have to consciously quit.

And so for me, that's such a more difficult thing to do, to break somebody's will. And so that's always my motivation is I want to break people because I'm not going to get broken. That was one of the videos I saw was where you were kind of mentioning that mentality. And I heard something recently, too, where somebody said, you know, he who can suffer the most can do the most or can do the best, you know. And it definitely goes along with, you know, what you're, you're fighting principle. Jesse sent me a video and in the beginning of the video, it says, oh, so I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. Oh, yeah.

What's nobody can pronounce it. Yeah. Well, I just see the OSU or the OSU. I thought it was Ohio State. Yeah. And I'm like, I think he's from California. So what's some of that about? So that's a company

with a guy in Holland. His name's Johnny Bang Riley. And he hit me up, I think it was about two years ago. I'd been watching a lot of his stuff. He does a lot of inspirational videos. He's got tats on his face.

He's got tattoos on his face. He's like, he's like a, what do you call it a renaissance man he should be in peaky blinders right he should be absolutely should be in peaky you know he's a poet he's a rapper he's you know a martial artist he's a movement guy and he has so many different aspects of his life and now i would watch a lot of his videos and things over the years and stuff and um you know once a while i would put them out there and one of my, uh, friends back East, he was like, Hey, I know that guy and we're in contact with each other. And he's like, um, you know, I think it'd be really cool if you guys did

a video one day and, um, you know, I'll put you in a contact with each other. And, you know, I, I thought I didn't really think anything of it. You know, I didn't think you'd ever contact me. And then a couple of days later I get an, get an uh email from him which just really surprised me and then and then we got on a uh skype chat it was such a weird thing because like i'm so used to like hearing this guy's voice on these videos and then like seeing him in that aspect and then i'm sitting there talking to him and it's like talking to this inspirational video because like that's just how he speaks, like his tone and everything. It's like really cool. And, um, you know, he was like, yeah, I think it'd be

really cool if we did, um, a video and, uh, you know, he's had some ideas and, you know, he's like, I'd really like to put some of your, uh, words. Cause he'd seen some of my, my writings and stuff. He's like, we should, uh, take some of your, one of your blogs or something. And I'll do like the voiceover of it and we'll put you in there and do it and do an action and stuff he's like we should uh take some of your one of your blogs or something and i'll do like the voiceover of it and we'll put you in there and doing doing the action and stuff and um i just happen to have this like i've literally only wrote one thing that was kind of came off like a poem almost and it was really about my uh um fears of getting started and putting down the bottle and things like that and i just written it and i was like well this one might work really well he put together this uh um little uh what do you call it a uh like a vignette type thing wow i don't even know a vignette he doesn't even know

what that means a storyboard there you go oh is that what a vignette is well look at mark so he puts together this storyboard and uh and, and you know, like, like even to that point, we'd been talking for a while. I still didn't think too much of it. You know, I don't ever really put too much emphasis on things people say and what they're going to do. And like, yeah, we're going to have this really great thing. Like you've been in the sport long enough.

You kind of know, like most things don't. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So it's not that I didn't take him seriously. I know that you know maybe nothing's ever come up next thing i know he's like all right you want to get on a plane i'm like what all right he's like yeah we have the production crew and everything all together we have the whole storyboard done we have everything done i'm like all right so i got on a plane flew over to the holland we we shot the uh film in like two three days and it was really again another

very surreal thing for me because there i am it looks really high production there's probably a lot of cameras probably a lot of people involved in that right and it's yeah you're fucking doing your shit in water there's a goddamn wolf in there for some reason he's like we're gonna have wolves man i'm like wolves what the hell and went over there and they had these two wolves like i'm brave but i didn't know they were in this they were oh yeah with them yeah i got that hang out with them it was pretty cool so they had their trainers and stuff and um you know the whole time it was such a weird thing and like you know i'm asking him questions i'm like well can we do it like this or and he's like this is your thing like these are your words this is your life like this is you you

do whatever you want like it's still such a strange thing for me to see like like to hear him speak words that i wrote that are about my life and and like to see that video that kind of encompasses everything i've done and it's it's very strange what's up with uh you writing what's going on with that i don't know you. You writing blogs and shit? Like writing poetry? I think he's just surprised that you know how to spell, Kevin. You know, I like to surprise people. Back in the day, you know, I would write about my experiences in fighting.

Because I'd always have, I don't know what it is, but if you travel with me or with or without me, I have the craziest things happen whenever I go overseas. Like, I don't even know how to get into it, but. And then you were just like, I need to document this. You would think everything's made up. I mean, stuff straight out of movies. And, you know, even, even way back, you know, 10, 15 years ago, I was like, I should probably like write this stuff down

because I'm never going to remember it, you know know so i just started like writing stuff and keeping track of it and you know this is back in myspace days you dominated myspace back in the back in the fucking day very many followers back then but um i uh i i one day i was just like oh i'm gonna put this online and you know it's kind of it was about one of my crazy trips in China and was getting killed over there and having to get snuck out of the city and stuff, which is a typical thing when you travel with me. But it just happens every time. It's crazy.

And like, I warn people when, when we go overseas, like one of my buddies came with me, uh, last time I went to Thailand, I was like, look, Ryan, I don't want to freak you out, but really bad things always happen to me when I travel. Shit ain't going to go smooth. Just know that I warned you and you can deal with the consequences. Anyway, so I put that up there, not thinking much of it, just for the hell of it. And people started hitting me up and emailing me like, wow, that was really cool. It was really cool to read and like you're really i really love the way you you write because if you know i can really feel like i'm there and stuff and i'm like i don't know what you're

talking about man but but it happened more and more and that kind of motivated me to to to definitely keep track of it more when i would uh travel and stuff and you know i'd start i would just start putting them up online and, and people just seem to really love them. So, so. And this is probably one of the first, again,

you know, you're an American in a, you know, a non-American fighting situation and you're putting these things up. So you're, you know, again, kind of ahead of the,

ahead of the curve of, you know, documenting, you know, these things. And to this point, you've, you've released at least one book of ahead of the, ahead of the curve of, you know, documenting, you know, these things. And to this point, you've, you've released at least one book of kind of your, uh, journaling heading into fights. Yeah.

Well, now I have, I have so many stories and things I've kept track of and written down that I'm like, well, maybe, maybe I should put a book out one of these days. I mean, I think I always planned on doing a full book one day but i was also like well when am i actually gonna write this like when i retire but like even if i retire i'm still gonna have more stories and stuff so like i'm constantly gonna be adding to this maybe i should just do a small book on one now on one like story and then do a series of books on different fights on different kind of crazy things that have happened. And it's like,

all right, I'm going to, I'll do one. And, uh, you know, I'll do it myself and just kind of see the, how the process goes,

how much of a pain in the ass it is. Like if people would even want to see this. And so, uh, you know, I picked probably my, my most monumental fight with, uh,

San Chai. And I, um, decided to make that the first book can we pause can you talk about who san chai is and what that really means and because i mean it's one of those things where not that you didn't have business fighting him but it was kind of just like that it was a really big step for the sport specifically in america for for you to go over there and be willing to do this.

Yeah. It was a, it was, it was a pretty big deal. Maybe just back up even a, even a step further a little bit. Like what the fuck's it like to you, you do a sport like Muay Thai and you're in Vegas and you're learning it and you feel like you're getting better and you probably fight locally,

I guess. Is that where you started? And then you're going over to fucking thailand yeah you know like that wouldn't you be there's a couple of steps missing in there yeah when you just be shitting your pants i mean well probably for a couple of reasons i think i think that as i said before that same kind of mentality sounds crazy was like i have no business here to begin with. So even though that was at such a higher level,

like once you know you don't belong somewhere, like how high up that level goes doesn't really change how it affects you. You know what I mean? Whether it's one degrees above where you should be or a hundred, like it's all the same in my mind. Like if I'm going to look dumb, I'm going to look dumb anyway.

So whatever, you know, someone's going to knock my ass out. How much worse could it be? So in that aspect of it, I didn't really like think about it too much. You know, it was never really a conscious thing. Like, is this a good idea or a bad idea? It was just like, this is what I'm going to do. And this is what I have to do to get better. Not should I do this or shouldn't I do this? You know, I look back on almost all of my career and like, I wouldn't tell people to do the things I've done. You know what I mean? Like it was really not smart, not safe. Feel free to contact Kevin for coaching at. Yeah. I'm like, I wouldn't tell anyone to do any, a lot, most of the things I've done,

but in looking back, if I had the mentality I have now, I probably wouldn't do them because I would try to be a lot smarter and safer. But if I was to do things a lot smarter and safer, I wouldn't have gotten to where I am today. I never would have made it here, never. You know, so I think it's a progression thing and you learn things along the way. But in the beginning, you just have to dive in head first. Like that's kind of the only way. I mean, there's better ways to do it starting earlier and, you know, doing that and stuff. But again, for me, I knew I was so far behind.

I had to find the biggest wolves I could find and go after them. You know, so yeah, the first time going um, going to Thailand was a, uh, huge eyeopening thing. You know, it's like you have this aspect of, oh yeah, I'm getting better. And, um, you know, I could definitely beat the hell out of people that don't know how to fight. And, and I, and I've been crushing everybody in America, you know, not to say I had an ego about it, because I definitely didn't think i i could even like hang in there with some of those guys but but to really see and feel how different it is there like children are throwing me around that i outweigh by 50 pounds and just like crushing me i'm like whoa

you know it's it's when you realize how many levels there are to something, it's a really eyeopening experience. And, and, but for me, it was, it was that much more of a, a motivator, you know, seeing where the top is. I'm like, well, now I know I'm really far behind. Like I thought I was pushing it hard before I, I, there's no way I can get here. And, you know, the children are crushing me. So, you know, so that, that just, that just inspired me more, you know, I think a lot of people might've deterred them, but, but for me, it was, uh, an, uh, an extreme motivator for me. So the first time you went, did you fight or just train? Both, both. Yeah. I, uh, so the first time I went, I went to this camp and this is, uh, they didn't have any foreigners there. It's not like it is now where like people go there to train and it's like a typical thing, like not a single person. It's like almost kind

of welcoming probably now versus standoffish maybe. I think the first foreigners to ever go to this camp. And this was a back alley, like middle of nowhere, uh, camp, not a single person spoke English. Um, it was brutal, you brutal you know and i was there i was there for three months um when i got over there my my trainer's brother picked me up and he basically you know he talked to me for a little bit he spoke english and he just dropped me off at this camp that was in this alley and left and i was like so uh you know? Like, I can't ask questions. I can't, you know, I'm just, I'm just here. I just got to do it. And like every fighter that was there is just looking at me like, oh geez, like here's this freaking Americans like spoiled, like, and I knew, and I knew that,

you know, and for me it was like, I'm never gonna, I'm never gonna beat these people. I'm never gonna be better than these people. All I wanted to do was just earn their respect. I was like, I refuse to be some little bitch about things and like be, have things catered to me. Cause I had read some things about foreigners that had gone to Thailand in the past and they like kind of babied them and gave them like separate training. And I was like, I refuse to do that. I'm like, I'm going to do every single thing they do with them, or I'm not going to do it at all. And really that's what I did.

And I think after that first day or two, you could really see their mentality change towards me because they realized that I wasn't that way. And, you know, I think, I think a lot of people, um, for me, I have that same mentality towards people. Like, I don't care what level you're at. If you show that desire and will to want to get better, that's all I care about. I don't care if it's your first day. Like if you show me that this is what you want to do and you have that same heart for it and passion for it that I do, like I'll, I'll train you every single day of the week.

You know what I mean? So, so for, for that, you know, being there training with them and then, and then fighting, that was really the thing. It was like, I just want to earn these people's respect and show them that there are people in America that can do this too. You know,

cause I mean, I mean, we're still a joke in the Muay Thai kickboxing world, but back then it was, I don't know if there's a word for it, like joke, like, like not possible joke. You know what I mean? Like not even on the radar. Were you one of the first Americans to be a champion? Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And, uh, you know, there was, there was a handful of us, um, that were out there pushing it and fighting the highest level. And that actually is how that Can't Stop Crazy got started was there was a group of us, you know, a couple guys, a couple girls. We didn't train together, but we were always at fights and fighting on the same cards. And we were the ones that were out there really, the few that were really willing to put it all on the line.

And we kind of came together and realized that was the situation. We were kind of, kind of friends back then, but, but we really kind of banded together and wanted to, uh, create our own group to, uh, promote ourselves and to promote the sport and to help it grow. And that was really a huge monumental leap, um, here in the States for, for Muay Thai at the time when, um, really helped get it on the world's radar, you know, because we were the ones out there like,

like swimming with the sharks. Yeah. Talk more about San Chai. So that leads us pretty much into our San Chai. Yeah. San Chai is. San Chai is basically Mayweather of Muay thai um you know he was has been dominating multiple weight classes forever now and uh even even dominating like he makes the best fighters

in the world look like babies literally babies like he's joking around with them particularly when he goes and fights overseas and stuff it's like it's just a demo you know it's a joke and um you know there's been like two literally two other people that have even had a competitive fight with them as far as foreigners go and um i don't really know how it happened. It was kind of a, it was kind of a, like for me, it was this like slow progression, like, like fighting in Thailand was like, ah, that's never going to happen. Like, I'm never going to do that. And like, I did it. And then the next thing was like, um, fighting this super high level at the time, Thai here

in the States. And then I beat him. And then there was another one. And it was like, each time was this, these progressions and these giant steps up but each time it was it was a huge leap you know so going uh to sancho even though i was still fighting high level super high level guys at that time he's just in a league of his own you know like like literally one of the greatest muay thai fighters of all time and um it was weird cause it, it actually had been talked about for a while.

I just thought, I was like, there's no way that's ever going to happen. You know, it's just not going to happen. You know, and he was, uh,

fighting a lot of people overseas cause there's, there's a lot more money for them, um, overseas and, you know, they can get more exposure and, and it's easy. They don't have to train and they can just go around doing demos basically and it's fights of the life for the other people but

but it's just a joke for them and um it just kind of happened and they're like yeah we got a fight with san chai and uh it's for the wbc diamond belt which is they've never done before in Muay Thai. I think they did it once or twice in boxing. It's just supposed to represent the two elite fighters fighting and then this is what a special thing for it. Did you have a pretty good record built up at the time? Yeah.

I mean, I had a good record. I mean, he's got 300 fights. It's funny. I got a photo of the stats as we walked out and it's like 267 and whatever. And then I was like 25 and four. Yeah. So, you know, going in prior to this fight, you know, people were like, why? Like, why?

You know, it was like just there's no point in this. It's just for him to come over here. And which is great. You know, everybody wants to see it and it's cool and all, but, but Kevin's going to get killed in a minute. But I was pretty used to people saying that. People had been saying that my whole career to that point was just like, why? Like, you have no business in there with these people at all.

This was a completely different level, but it was more of the same for me. Like, yeah, I know. I know, you know, and, and I really went through a lot of that during training and stuff. You know, there was days I would wake up like it was any other fight, you know, like I'm just going to kill myself in training and I'm going to kill myself in the ring and see how it turns out and then other days i would wake up like what are you thinking you're an idiot like there is no way on earth you're gonna touch him let alone be competitive like he's gonna knock you out in like two seconds or whenever he wants to right you know and like well he might but he might not you know and that could very well happen but but you're not gonna know until you get in there and that that's another kind of mentality i think i've always had it and that's why i've gone into so many fights against guys like that going into fights with the

flu going into fights with broken hands and it's like you don't know until you do it like it's easy for me to sit here and be like oh well my hand's broken maybe i shouldn't fight because i can't use it but i don't know what's going to happen when i get in there you know like a week before my my world title fight i i broke my ribs and uh i couldn't breathe for two days and i was literally in bed and having to sit up and couldn't sleep because I couldn't breathe. And I'm like, I worked for the last 12 years to get to this point and I can't touch it. How am I going to fight somebody?

Cause as soon as he touches me, I'm going to go down, you know? And then I really kind of dealt with that for like a day or two. Just like, there's no way of like, I'm going to cancel the fight, heal up that way. You know, I can give him my all and you know, we'll fight in a month or two, just like, there's no way of like, I'm gonna cancel the fight, heal up that

way. You know, I can give him my all, you know, we'll fight in a month or two, but then that same thing always pops in my head. Like, you just don't know what's going to happen. You can go in there. He might not even touch that, or you might be able to handle it. You don't know. And I went in there and had like the performance of my life and then ended up beating him, crushing him pretty badly. and had like the performance of my life and then ended up beating him crushing him pretty badly so it was the same mentality for this fight was like you just don't know what's gonna happen and i went in there and had one of the most competitive fights with him of any foreigner ever and lost a split decision something like that but again for me this was another fight where it wasn't even about winning and losing which most of my fights, I don't really think about that.

It's like, I need to be, I need to feel good about it. I need to know that there's nothing more I could have done in training, in the fight, all these aspects. I know that I gave it everything I had and the results are going to be the results. I mean, there's, you only have so much control over that anyway. As long as I know I was honest with myself and I gave it everything I had and ended up having that crazy fight with him in it. And it's, it's, it's weird. Cause you know, you look back now and it's like, oh yeah, you did that. You had a close fight with him. But

think about a week before that fight, what the talk was like, there's no way you're not going to make it out of the first minute. Same with my buddy, Joe, you know, he, he had a fight with a Calcali, which was another gigantic name in Muay Thai. And all the talk beforehand was like, you're going to die. You're going to get killed. And then he ends up knocking them out, which he told everybody he was going to do. He's like, I'm gonna knock him out in the first round. And that's exactly what he did. And then afterwards it's like, oh, which he told everybody he was going to do. He's like, I'm going to knock him out in the first round. And that's exactly what he did. And then afterwards, it's like, oh, well, you know, you're bigger than him. And, you know, you got lucky or, you know, he's old.

It's like, where's all that talk from before? You know, it's like, but the people that are in there doing it know what's what. Right. You know, and for me, that's all I care about. I like people can say whatever they want about anything, about fights, about decisions, about things like that. Like you and that person know exactly what happened and how things went down and other people are always going to say what they're going to say.

But, but as long as you know what you did, then that's, that's all I care about. I find it really interesting with fighting, you know, uh, with like basketball or, or, um, football or something, you know, it's, you, uh, play it, you know, it's a team sport and there's can be many different outcomes for many different reasons. Uh, the best player could have been down or execution could have been off the day for that day or, or whatever. Uh, but in MMA, I always find it really fascinating that, or in Muay Thai or kickboxing or boxing, that you're square off against somebody.

It's, it's a one-on-one and sometimes the other person is imposing their will on you and kicking the shit out of you. How did, how the fuck do you overcome some of that? How does that, is that, is that training?

Is that like a mindset? Like if, like if he and I are fighting, he's beating the shit out of me. Just even off the first jab, if he just fucking drilled me at the first jab. It's like, how do you have the ability to keep going, to keep fighting? Well, that aspect of it is definitely 100% mental. Well, you do need to have the physical aspect of it. But if you don't have that mental

aspect of it your physicality is worthless right you know i mean that's only going to get you to a certain point but if you don't have that will to keep going no matter what the odds look like there's no way you can do this have you had that happen before like the second you get in there the guy touches you and you're like what the fuck was that holy shit that guy's like holy shit that guy's strong like fast or strong or whatever obviously with the sunshine fight it was that way i'm just like holy shit like this is i know they told me about this but what was that i can't see what he's doing i can't literally can't see it i can just i i know he's gonna hit me and he i got hit i don't know where it was or what he hit me with um I know he's going to hit me and I got hit.

I don't know where it was or what he hit me with. But again, you just, I just, it's like, I'm just going to keep going and keep going and keep pushing it. And I'm going to try to break as well. And it's like the same thing with injuries or anything else like that, that happened mid fight. Like, yeah, this happened and this is a setback. I can quit or I can say, oh, my hand's broke, which a lot of people do and like okay we understand the fight's over yeah and uh i saw you know before i ever fought i saw this really great documentary with george foreman and he talked about how it was like the first time he got knocked out and how he realized how much of that is a mental thing.

Of course, there's a physical aspect of it. Like when your lights get turned out, they're out. But so many times it's a mental decision where people quit and you see it. And if you know that's what's going on, you can really see it. It was demoralizing for him. He was gone for 20 years. He said he made the decision that i'm never gonna lose like that again unless i'm dead because and you have to you really have to make that

conscious decision because when you're in there you're not making that conscious thought you have to have that mentality already you can't figure it out there like what am i gonna do like you're the habit or you don't and you see people, even though they might be a little dazed and woozy, you know, there's that, that fine line in between where, where it's a conscious decision or, or even if it's not conscious, a subconscious decision that they made earlier, you know, maybe, maybe not on purpose, but a lot of that comes from things that happen in the gym, things that happen in training, you know, when you kind of ease back a little bit on some like really hard sprints and stuff or days you don't want to go in there. It's those little things, those decisions to keep pushing it when you don't have anything left, when you've had a really bad day or you're sick or you're injured and going forward anyway and giving it everything you have anyway, that comes out in the fight.

Cause at that point you can't make these decisions. You have to have that mentality. The hard part for me is, or for anybody is where do you draw that line of, am I hurt or am I just injured? Am I, am I sick to where this is going to really fuck me up worse? Or am I just being a little baby and I got a cold and maybe I maybe I should go out running or something. And the problem is nobody can tell you where that line is. You have to make the decision because you have to be willing to deal with the things that happen, good and bad, because of it. And I can't sit here and say, oh, you have a broken toe,

maybe you should take the day off, or maybe you should go over there and stand on one leg and hit the bag. That's what I did when my knee was blown out. I just stood on one leg and punched the bag, you know, and then a lot of people would have taken that time to sit at home and get fat. And, but for me, I was in the gym the next day doing sit-ups and I'm like, I can do something, you know, even if it's laying in bed, like mentally going over things, there's always something you can do. And it's the people that are willing to push it farther and to find where that line is. Because the problem is that that line, we, our body wants to keep us safe and our mind wants to keep us safe. And it wants to quit way

before you actually should just in order to keep you safe. You know? So I think what I realized is in one thing that's always helped me is like, as soon as I feel like, all right, maybe we should ease back. That's when I'm like, I'm gonna go harder now because I know that's bullshit. One,

I'm like, I wrote this thing. It's called your, I don't know if it was your subconscious or something like your mind's a liar. Yeah, it is kind of lying to me. I'm like,

no, fuck you, dude. I'm in control. It talks you out of stuff all day long. You have this split personality of your subconscious wants to keep you safe and he's doing his best to keep everything cool, but he's also not going to be able to make it

to the best in the world. And you have to tell him to shut up. And again, I can't tell you to, you should always say shut up and go to the gym anyway when you're broken. And because there are some times when maybe that's not the best idea and it's counterproductive, but more times than not, you're just being a baby about it. Think about how many times a day that happens.

Like your mind is talking you out of doing the stuff that you promised yourself you wanted to do in the first place. The goals that you set out, the different things that you told someone the night before that you wanted to do immediately the next day, you're talking yourself out of them. It could be the smallest thing. Like even when you have to take a piss in the morning, you're like, don't fucking get up. Just keep sleeping. It feels good. This feels comfortable. And you just keep snoozing, right? Like it could be the smallest thing. It could be your food choices for the day. Like you decide, I don't know, you, you want to get on a regimen, you want to lose weight, you want to get in shape for a fight or whatever it might be. Next thing you know, you're, you're eating cereal and you almost

forgot about the conversation that you had with yourself or your friend the night before. Yeah. That's something I try to instill in people is like every, almost every moment of every day, you have these decisions to either be stronger or weaker. And it can be something as simple as having a beer, having a, having a snack. It's like, do you think when you get to where it counts, you're suddenly going to have this no quit mentality? He's talking to you, Burdick. It's not going to happen. It's getting hot in here, isn't it?

One of my first trainers, he was like like you have to do everything in the gym at 100 to be 70 in the ring because that is where things are going to fall apart you're going to have that somebody's trying to kill you so if you're not doing everything you can outside of the ring you can't just turn it on in there and and you see it and so many people um in training it's like they kind of half-ass it. They don't give it their all. They take days off. And I'm not going to tell you that's wrong. But what I am going to tell you is you're not just suddenly going to be miraculously turn it on when all the lights are on and everyone's looking at you like and your life is on the line.

Like you think you're just going to be this badass. Like you have to do it with every decision you make every single day. You have these opportunities to get stronger, to get weaker. And the more you can make those choices in the right direction, the more you're going to be able to make the big ones when you, maybe you don't have this conscious thought about whether you can or can't do something. So besides maybe the, the, the San Chai fight, having this mentality going in and, you know, just being able to make those, the hard decisions all the time is there another fight besides maybe that one where you're like okay cool i got my

game plan i know what i'm gonna do you walk in and you're like well that goes out the window let's just see what let's just see what's gonna happen here yeah well i've lots again like just like traveling for me like the worst things happen to me in fighting i I don't know. I guess like I needed all that stuff. Getting in the fight sounds like a victory for you. Oh my God. Just getting in the goddamn ring. If I can get in the ring, I'm one piece. That's why like when things are going really well and like everything went great in training,

weight cut went good. I'm like, oh God, something bad's going to happen. You know what I mean? Cause it's like, usually. You said that before for powerlifting. Usually if like some really bad stuff happens in training. I'm like, all right.

Like I got all that out the way out of the way. But, uh, my second fight after, uh, my knee surgery, that's what happened. I had the best training camp of my life.

Easiest way cut ever. Best warmup ever. Like I was just on fire. Everything was working. And then, uh, we go down to like the staging area where they're about to call me out. Time's going, I'm like, ah, it's taking a while. And I'm slowly

like shoulders are going down, heads going down. Kieran's like, Hey, uh-huh. What? He's like, we're going to go soon. I'm like, all right, all right. Time's going by. And I don't remember what happened. They just had some delay or something. But I go out there. First round just crushed the dude. I mean, it's like nothing. Like I'm just going to walk all over this dude. I go back to the corner. I sit down.

And it was like I was underwater with a pound of sand in my throat. I couldn't breathe. My body was just dead. And Kieran's like, how are you feeling? And like my first fight after surgery, like I was smashing feet so bad because because my like timing and stuff was bad and i didn't tell him about it till afterwards he's like why didn't you tell me your feet were messed up and i'm like what am i gonna say like it hurts right yeah he's like no but like you can really say that and i can kind of give you a little guidance and like maybe we suggest this and i was like all right and so like

in this fight i was like like i literally was dying inside i couldn't breathe and he was like how you feeling and i didn't want to tell him i'm like i'm tired he's like what do you mean you're tired like like like you're never gonna hear that out of me because that's like the thing i'm known for is my conditioning like i literally could not breathe and i physically couldn't move and i was like i don't know how i'm gonna how am i gonna fight i can't stand up i i i'm about to pass out and for a moment there i was like what would happen if i just walked out of the ring right now like has anyone ever done that before like because like there's nothing i can do like like not only cannot fight i don't know if i can just stand there and pass out um and and and it was it was like being held underwater and

like you have to decide well you got to do it anyway or you can quit like i quit you know and it turned out i had a pneumonia and uh bronchitis at the time and just didn't know it because i was kind of putting in the back of my mind i was trying like i had felt a little sick and you know but but that's always the case you know and and i just had the most grueling like i knew how much time was like i had four rounds to go yep it's like you're staring at this gigantic hill underwater with weights on in in quicksand and it's like all right go sprint up that hill or you can quit and go home you know and and every second of every round was like going uphill with 500 pounds on me with my mouth duct tape shut you know and being underwater and it was just this awful awful thing i actually ended up somehow winning and just kind of pushing through that.

But it was like, I think that like took years off my life, like having to like push through that and deal with that, you know, but. One of the few fights that I've actually been able to kind of watch of yours. And that was, I was sitting next to Katie in first round, just ran through the person, ran through the guy in the second round. I was like, oh crap. I think Kevin's hurt or something. There's something weird happened. This is just wrong.

It was wrong. You weren't answering anything that was thrown. And, and then, you know, you end up with a split decision. I think rounds like two and three kind of went to him, four and five, he kind of came back and were able to kind of, kind of make a nice comeback. And I remember talking to Kieran, he was like, he told me that he was done like second round. I was like, yeah, it looked like he was done that second and third round, but he was able to turn it around four and five. He's like, yeah, there's something wrong. And then, you know, found out that you should have been in the hospital like for two weeks before that it really messed me up too afterwards

i mean i was deathly ill for like two months afterwards because it fried my system so bad to like push it at that level in being that sick but it was just another confirmation to me which so many um times in the ring with stuff like that has been that if you want something, you're going to have to prove you want it. And as long as you're willing to die for it, you can get it. And, but that has to be a price you're willing to take. And, you know, for me, it is always, like I said earlier, this has always been like extra credit for me. You know, I shouldn't be here anyway. So even though if I was to die in the ring, I knew that I've done so much extra from the point when I should have been dead and so many positive things, like I'm willing to,

to like really give it everything and, um, and, and push past those points where just you probably shouldn't, know but but but again um i'm willing to deal with the consequences i'm willing to deal with the good and the bad i mean there's there's no guarantee that i didn't die that day and there's no guarantee that i won that fight you know it's it's easy to look back now and be like yeah you're okay but i didn't have any promise of victory here i don't promise of something really bad happening to me you know so so sometimes people hit me up and be like, I don't know if I should fight. Cause I'm like, I got the flu right now. I'm like, I'm not going to tell you to do it. I'm like, you are the one that has to be willing to deal with the consequences. Same with just training in the

gym and fighting. It's like, it's very rare. Yeah. People die in fights, but people die in the gym too. You know, people die in, in, in headgear gigantic gloves. It happens. It's rare, but if you're not willing to deal with what can happen to you in there, you shouldn't do this. Right. You know? Uh, and, and I'll, I'll tell anybody that like, I mean, anything horrible can happen to you. Even if it's a freak thing in a gym, when you're doing something dangerous, even lifting, you drop a gigantic weight on your head, you're going to die, you know, and those, you know, I'm sure those things happen. So as long as you're willing to deal with the consequences, then it's easy for somebody outside to say, oh, this is dangerous. You do something else. Yeah.

Well, life is dangerous. I go outside right now and get ran over. It has nothing to do with Muay Thai. I'd rather do something I love and do something I know is positive for me and positive for people that see it. And maybe, maybe I don't make it out of there, but, but I know that. And I know I, at least I had the choice and it was something I was willing to do, not just some stupid bullshit, getting ran over by a truck crossing the street. You know what I mean? What's, um, you know, uh, with, uh, all the travel and stuff that you mentioned in, uh, the blog and stuff, what's a story that with all the travel and stuff that you mentioned in uh the blog and stuff what's a story that people are kind of most attached to that you shared with people i don't know what's your favorite one then my favorite story yeah i know you have a ton of stories i mean

you're gonna go in america and thailand place yeah i mean you once told me that you actually went blind during a camp once so i mean try and dredge up some of the some of the worst stories that's what we're interested you know if you got a thailand poop story you can lay it on us i got those two yep bring it well i i think the craziest story was that first uh trip to china to China. So, um, me and my buddy, Anthony Brown, he, he trained to, he was actually a cop at the time. Um, and, uh, a lead dancer at ballets and Jubilee, and he's like 50 years old and still fighting. He's pretty amazing. And, um, you know, often just random people would hit, hit up the gym and looking for fighters. And, um, you know, we did Muay Thai in this,

uh, place. And, uh, these people in China called the gym looking for two fighters to go do a Sanchao, which is, it's like kickboxing with takedowns.

Um, it's, it's similar to that. I mean, there's no elbows, um, but there's punches, kicks,

knees, that kind of thing. And like, Hey, do you want to go over to China and do this San Xiao fight? These two San Xiao fights actually were like, Oh yeah, of course. Why not? Let's go do it.

We've never trained in the sport ever. We had about five days to practice. So yeah, let's go. They're like, Oh yeah, we're going to take you to the China wall and see the Shaolin temple and stuff like, Oh, that's cool. Pre-trip to China. You know, this is 14 years ago so again it's not like we thought there was ever any chance of making money so it's like oh cool trips and stuff that's a huge bonus right so it's like yeah let's go so um we ended up going over there with uh

this actual this girl who's a sancho fighter and her coach who is chinese they were actually from san francisco We flew to San Francisco, met them. We'd never met them before. We didn't know them. And he was, they were, he was the one that was going to kind of take care of us. And then we flew over there to China. And, um, so the first day or the first fight, it's at this stadium, bells and whistles, you know, the, the lights and everything and all the people go over there and fight um i actually ended up getting my skull fractured because this dude kicked me in the back of the head what he had a steel plate in his oh this is it in his uh shin guard uh i didn't

know at the time that he fractured my skull but um it's actually coming up here soon oh it's the worst sound in the world you had a bunch of complications from that, didn't you? Yeah. So, um, I heard it's coming. Anyway,

cheating motherfucker. Yeah. So he kicks me in the back of the head and, and, and breaks my skull, but I ended up stopping him. I got up and stopped him, which really messed with his head.

Yeah. And then, um, so that fight happened and it was relatively normal other than that um and like i said i didn't know that my that was this and uh i didn't know my skull was fractured because it's not like it was cut or anything it was on the inside and um the next day um we had another fight and and they took us on this crazy, this crazy, like 10 hour bus ride into the middle of the jungle. Like this was in like a city, like near Beijing or something.

And we're on this bus for like 10 hours into the middle of nowhere. And where are we fighting? Like there is not even a building around or a paved road or anything. There is not even a building around here or a paved road or anything. And, um, so we're driving through, not the woods, but like the jungle on this dirt road and this bus just like, oh my gosh, this is the weirdest thing. And like my buddy Anthony, like I said, he was a cop. So he's like looking around for landmarks. Like if we have to like bail, we need, I need to know where we are.

And, uh, you know, and and the girl was she was getting really quiet and uh her mom was actually there too and so they they stopped talking and we're just like in the middle of nowhere and all of a sudden i started hearing this banging just like what is that noise man it's getting louder and louder we, we like pull up and there's this long driveway and there it's lined with people playing drums. And it's like this temple, like out of a Bruce Lee movie, just in the middle of nowhere.

And we're driving, there's drums being played. There's people out there clapping. And it's like the whole parade thing going on with what is going on here. And they they're like we get out of the car and we're like we don't know what's going on and they didn't speak any english and the guy the chinese guy that was with us he seemed a little weirded out by the whole thing too and uh he's like oh this is where the fight's gonna be uh and they're like all right here's a room. You guys can go back and chill. And we're trying to figure out what's going on,

but he wasn't saying much. We didn't know what was happening. And like, oh, you're going to fight in a couple hours. And, you know, they have some students that train here that we're going to put on an

exhibition. All right. That sounds cool. And, and then all of a sudden some guy comes and he's like, no, we're going to fight right now. It's like here.

And they are like, okay. And they like brought us in this room. We're like, here's the changing guy comes and he's like, no, we're going to fight right now. It's like, uh, here. And they are like, okay. And they like brought us in this room. We're like, here's the changing room. And it was like this, like there was four of us, no, six of us in this room. Like this is our warmup changing room. All right. All right. I guess, uh, we'll just do what we can.

Like, we didn't know who we were fighting or what was going on. And, um, and, and, and, and as I said, they told the guy told us, Oh, it's just an exhibition. Don't worry about it. And,

and then he left and they shut the door and the Chinese guy was like, he's a liar. He's like, it's not an exhibition. It's like, they're going to try to hurt you. And then I came to find out the dude that I stopped was like the head guy the mob guy's kid and like this is like the compound you're like what the hell like oh my gosh dude like for real

i'm like oh man i was like well what do you want me to do should i go out there and just like let him beat me or what because like like for me i was like if it was just me like i'm gonna go out there i'm gonna try to crush this guy i don't care if they kill me or whatever and uh but now i'm thinking about like my friends there and that girl i'm like we're not gonna worry about them so i asked him like what do you want me to do like should i go out there and do it and he's like no i want you to hurt him i was like all right dude i'm gonna go out there and do my thing and, uh, it was this ring and, and this huge crowd of people just standing around it. And I'm like, somebody's just gonna like stab me or like, like, cause so much weird stuff had gone on. Like, it's not like there's like a commission there or anything like that. And like, we're in the middle of nowhere. And my buddy Anthony was like, dude, like they're going to kill us here and just dump us. He's like, what they're going to do is say, you came yesterday to the event. Right.

And we didn't see you. Never saw you. And like, what are you going to say? Like, who are you going to tell? And I'm like, and we're thinking like, even if we escape this place, we don't know where we are in the world. Like, I know we're in China, maybe. Right. You know what I mean?

But like, what do you go to a gas station? There's no gas station. You're knocking some farmer's door and like, hey man, they're trying to kill me. And, uh, and yeah, so like, I literally thought I was going to die walking to the ring. I actually took this photo in the, uh, changing room of like out, it was out looking over all this farmland. Cause I like, I literally thought this is where I was going to die. But I actually like at the time I was like,

well, if you got to go, like this is not so bad. It's kind of cool. I mean, you know, I'm doing what I love. I mean,

it's a good way to go. Sure. There's a lot worse. There's a lot worse things that could happen. Like I've just always kind of had a piece with, with death because like I said, I always thought I was going to be dead early anyway. know so for me it was like well i got like four extra years in there that's pretty good i've done some cool stuff so i go out there as i said i didn't think

i was going to make it to the ring but i did i ended up stopping that guy and then um not getting stabbed well that was the thing like like stopped him stopped him, you know, they raised my hand. I'm like, well, this is it. Like, I'm not going to make it back to the locker room, you know? So I'm just like walking, just literally waiting for something to kill me or someone to beat me down or anything and made it all the way back. I'm like, all right, well, that didn't happen. And then, uh, you know, that they, uh, my, my boy, Anthony fought, Jenna fought. They actually both lost.

Well, not really, but didn't get the victory. And then I'm like, oh, well, now this is definitely it. And we like walk out of the changing room. No people are there anymore. All the lights are off. And this is the middle of nowhere. So it's not like there's street lights. It's pitch black.

I'm like, oh, my God's pitch black i'm like oh my god so we're just like we're like trying to walk and like couldn't even see where we were going finally we like get out front and um the guy that her coach was standing there there was a van in this dude who looked just like um who's the uh dictator in uh North Korea? Yeah. Look just like that in the, in the outfit and everything. So he was like the head mob guy. Oh, the other thing was while we were there,

all these like super expensive cars are pulling up. Like, like I said, it was straight out of a movie. Like this is like shit they bet on, like to the death. Like it was like that for real. So like that guy standing over there,

like he was kind of in this office to the back and he's like waving to us to come over he's like come on come on come here and and our guy's like no and he like grabbed himself apparently one of the uh um referees um snuck us out of there and got his car and and we'd like hop like we didn't really know this was going on we knew something bad was going on like i said they didn't speak english but you could just tell something bad was happening and uh we hopped in the car and we're like driving through the the jungle and then all of a sudden so we're on these dirt roads we come up to this fake toll booth it's just like uh-oh stick across a giant tree across the road i'm like i just saw some dude with a

machine gun was it and jump out and just kill us. But like the guy hopped out and like lifted it up and like we drove off and we ended up driving through the night to a city. It wasn't until that like later on, we found out exactly what happened that they had to sneak us out. And he's like, yeah, those are bad people,

like really bad people. And I'm like, no one's going to believe this shit. Like even like talking about it now, I'm like, people will not believe this. Like I don't believe it. And it happened to me. Like it doesn't seem real. Like it was serious. Like some bad stuff was going down there.

And like finally we got out of there. And it's just like this sigh of relief. And that guy, his coach, and he actually knew the referee. They took us to this uh san chow camp in the city with all these people and it was like the most amazing like experience ever from that point on like it was such a cool thing and um we got to see some some really great stuff and meet some really great people but like to make things just even crazier like when we were landing in san francisco our freaking plane bounced off the freaking runway.

Like, it hit sideways, shot back up in the air. And, like, as soon as that happened, I looked over to my friend. I'm like, this is such bullshit. I was like, I just can't deal with this thing. It's been, like, we were there for 10 days. I'm like, at a certain point, when you think you're going to die every second of your day, eventually you're just like,

whatever, like might as well get it over with. You're just, you're just, you're just ready for it. It's just a matter of time, you know? So then to actually be back,

um, in America on the soil, like I literally felt like somebody that comes back from the war, like I'd like down on the ground, kissing the floor. I'm like, Oh my God, it's so great to be back in America.

It's like when you go over somewhere like that, you don't realize how really alone you are. Like, what are you going to do if you need help? Like, you know, ask a cop or something. Like,

how do you know they're not all together? Especially in the jungle. Right. Who the hell even set that up for you in the first place? I don't really even remember. Like, like back then, like I said, they, they don't really even remember like like back then like i said they they they came at us like this was some like event like like uh two countries like like

promoting each other like oh we're gonna bring some high-level fighters from america and like i said they told us we were gonna see all these sites and take us to the they never happened right we're gonna take them to the china wall and like i said like i really feel like they were gonna say we came fought and they sent us on our way and that was it but let alone i fought the next day with a fractured skull but it wasn't till i got back home and a couple months later i was actually training for another fight and i was having a lot of problems with like my vision and stuff every time i get hit i see these giant flashes of light like someone had a strobe light in my eye. I'm like,

ah, that's weird. Like it would happen even if I just barely got touched, you know? And I'm like, all right, well, I had a spike coming up.

I'm like, maybe I should go get my head checked out just in case. And, um, I went and got an MRI done. Um, and they're like, you have a inch and a half crack in the back of your skull.

What? It's like, what happened? I'm like, oh, I just got kicked in the back of your skull what it's like what happened i'm like oh i just got kicked in the back of the head and um he's like how did what do you mean you got kicked in the back of the head i'm like well the guy had shin guards on he's like that's not possible how do you crack your skull and then i was talking to uh that chinese guy the coach and he's like yeah

a lot of times they'll put steel plates in there and they'll, they'll take out, cause it's usually bamboo and they'll take out the bamboo and put steel in there. Oh my God. And like my doctor's like, you should be dead right now or a vegetable. He's like, if you literally get touched there, you're, that's going to happen. Cause it'll just push into your brain. So I had to, uh, I couldn't even, I couldn't do anything other than hit the bag for like three months because I couldn't risk falling and hit my head. So I couldn't spar. I couldn't, I couldn't get hit. I couldn't do anything other than hit the bag for like three months because I couldn't risk falling and hit my head. So I couldn't spar.

I couldn't get hit. I couldn't do anything. So that was a hard time. You just didn't fight for a little while? Yeah, I couldn't get hit. I couldn't even do anything. It was brutal, man, because all I could do was hit the bag and just like I couldn't risk falling. all I could do is hit the bag and just like, I couldn't risk falling, you know?

And it was, that was a really, that was one of a million hard times. Just like, you just got to keep going. You got to keep going. You got to, what do you need to quit? Right. What are things like right now? Like, you know, you kind of mentioned, uh, kind of didn't belong. It was like, uh, you were the underdog all the time. Now you're not, uh, what not. What are fights like now?

Like, is it hard to, you know, always remember that it is a fucking fight? You know, do you still have a lot of fight in you to be aggressive and to take care of business the way you need to? It is tough for me to, it's easy when you don't have to think about keeping yourself sharp because the person in front of you could end you at any moment. It's very different when you're in there when those roles are reversed and you have to make the conscious decision to keep yourself sharp. Is it maybe important not to think about your opponent that much? Just think about yourself maybe? Yeah, but that's kind of what I always have done. Yeah, but that's kind of what I always have done.

And it's like, no matter how much you tell yourself, anybody can land a shot. Anybody can do anything, no matter how good or bad they are, anything can happen. It's very different when you don't have a choice in the matter and when you do. So no matter how much I tell myself this person can land this amazing thing or anything can happen, you know, you can just trip and fall and knock yourself out. It's just not the same yeah if you see some tape of somebody or see instagram or whatever and you're not impressed by him you're just you're not overwhelmed you can't lie to your brain like oh this guy's really really good no he's not not he's not like yeah he can fight and then you want it's not that good and you should never beat me right like you might think that sometimes so you know at first i kind of deterred me a

little bit and i was like dude i don't want to freaking do this anymore like if i'm not fighting these guys that i want to be in there with like why do i want to do this but you know i kind of just found a different way to look at it i'm like there's just another opportunity to help grow different aspects of of mentality, of your physicality. And like, now you're in this other position, can you still push it at that level? You know, it's a different thing, but it's just as difficult in a different aspect.

And once I kind of made that switch in my head, it made my outlook on it a little different. It is still very hard for me to do, but there are still high level guys. And, you know, the guy I'm fighting for the world uh, world title, which they announced it. Yeah. So I can't say, but, um, you know, there still are guys out there, out there like that, but, but, but most of the time, especially in like this kickboxing realm that, um, it's a different level of competition and I am on the higher end of things. So it can be tough to, you know,

before it was like, everybody you fight is better than you. So it's easy to just, anybody you fight is going to, going to push you to that level. Now it's like, well now like top 10 maybe, but other than that,

no. So do you still have a list of people that you want to fight? Dream list of, of matches you would love to? I don't, I don't, I don't really think I have a dream list anymore. Just, I just want to fight the best that i can whoever that may be um i've always just been

someone who i only want to get in there with people that i like to watch fight you know because i want to be entertained just as much as you do like i don't want to get in there and fight somebody that's boring even though yeah in some ways it's a it's a different aspect and i have to it's it's like a puzzle you have to solve i'd rather get in there with someone who's an exciting fighter as well because i know no matter what it's going to be exciting for the people because i i know this is entertainment i want to be entertained when i watch fights yeah so i don't want to put on boring matches and it takes two people to have an exciting fight you know no matter how exciting you want to be, if someone just knows how to smother you and do these things to, to, to win a fight that way, you can't make it exciting

unless they're willing to make it exciting too. Or it's very difficult, I should say. And, uh, you know, particularly at this stage, like, I don't want to fight boring people. Like I want to fight great people and exciting people. They don't have to be the best in the world, but as long as they're exciting, like that's who I want to fight. Right. You know, so that list can be pretty expensive, but no, I don't have a list. What are you going to take from fighting into your everyday life, even when you're not fighting anymore? Well, I think, I think the good thing about fighting is, is all the things you have to learn and apply can go throughout your life and into different aspects of business and into other sports and into learning new things. And, you know,

you know, there's a good book or I don't even know what book it is, but they kind of talk about like, if you know how to be great in one thing, you know, the tools to be great in anything. It's just learning how to apply those things. It's, it's, there's a formula to it. Um, there, there's different ways to do it, but it's just train all day, every day, kill yourself, push yourself as hard as possible, never give up whatever you do. And you'll make it somewhere, you know, uh, more than you would make it more than most people will. If you just keep that mentality, um, in anything that you do, whether it's a relationship or a business or a sport, um, if you're constantly, constantly having that, uh, good is never good enough

mentality and even good things can always be better. Um, um, I think, I think you need to think that way about everything. If, if you want to be good at anything or whatever it is, a freaking diet or a sport or a business, if, if you always are in the mindset of, I can never be good enough, not to say you'd look down on yourself. I don't look down on myself. I just know that I can always be better. You know, that doesn't mean I'm bad.

That just means I could be great. Even if you're great, even just, even if there's nowhere else to go, just maintaining that greatness is almost impossible. So there's never an end point to anything, I don't think. And in that aspect of it, it's easy for me to stay motivated as long as there's something I want to do, because you can never be good enough. You said something early in the podcast about people wanting to fast forward to the end you know and i i see that happen often i i you know people

uh you know when i ever talk about my brother i tell people that he died from wanting to be great like that's in my opinion that's what he died of like he didn't die from alcohol or drugs necessarily he wanted to be great but he couldn't get his shit together to be good. And he had, you know, he was in his defense, he was bipolar and addicted to drugs and stuff. Uh, but, um, I see a lot of people, you know, they're really striving. They, they like, they want to be better so bad that they are kind of skipping forward to the end. They are kind of, and I, what I share with people all the time is like, Hey man, you know, like, why don't you just try to be good first? And then you'll just end up being great. There's a lot of people that are great that don't get the recognition. What you, your dad did for you is fucking great. I mean, what's better than that? Like he gave, he gave

you your life, you know, my dad's great. Maybe the world doesn't know about him because he's five foot four or whatever, right? And he's not a super athlete or anything like that. And so that's what I kind of see from a lot of people. They're trying to do these like real big things. And it's like, well, why don't we just try to figure out a way to get one foot in front of the other? Maybe rather than trying to be like Jesse Burdick

or trying to be like some certaindick or trying to be, uh, like some certain strength coaches out there, maybe you're just a personal trainer for a little bit and maybe do that every day until you figure shit out. Yeah. I think that's something I try to express to people because it's very easy to look at anyone in a spotlight or anyone that's gotten to a high level and think that they just got there and it was easy and they didn't have to go through things that you might be going through. And they did just skip to the end because somebody handed it to them on a platter. And so that's something that's motivated me to always be very vocal about the things I've had to go through and overcome and my struggles and things, because most people don't ever get to see that, you know,

it's very rare that that gets highlighted. Um, you know, it's like, you gotta realize what you're viewing is like a per one percent of these person's journey. That's all you're seeing is the end result. You didn't see anything they had to give up and overcome and all the failures they had along the way, all the times they went bankrupt, all the injuries, all the times they failed more times than you could count. You don't see that you see, oh, they made it. So, you know, I can do it too. I just, you know, yeah. I think anybody can do anything, but the avenue to get there is always going to be different. People think it's a overnight success that took 15 years. Yeah. I think, I don't know if it was Eddie that said this, but somebody said it. He said,

everybody, everybody has to pay their dues, but you don't get to decide when and where those dues have to be paid when and where and how, because everyone has to pay them in some aspects. You just, yours are going to be different than mine, but you have to pay them and you don't get to decide, Oh, I'm just that all I have to do is overcome this one bad day. Maybe every day is going to be bad that you have to overcome, but you can still make it, but you have to be willing to, to, to pay those dues. And I think that's most people don't, it's easy to say that, uh, I know it's going to be a struggle. You don't know what those struggles are going to be. You don't know what those struggles are going to be. Right.

You don't know if you're gonna have to live on the street for two years, you know, and work out and live in a tent. You know, you don't, nobody knows what that's going to be. So as long as you make the decision that no matter what happens, you're not going to quit or give up, you'll probably make it. Fucking awesome, man. Anything else, Burdick? I don't know if I can follow that.

It's pretty good thanks i wrote just uh as we uh as we uh yeah well read well read yes as we uh as we wrap things up just uh talk a little bit about how you've been training this guy over the last couple years well you know i got uh introduced to kevin right after his knee surgery so it was basically just helping him uh just helping him find a path to get back to get back to the ring um and just helping him uh you can't maybe tell from the podcast but he's got you know this really really sexy kind of hunchback um posture from kind of protecting his neck a little bit but you know you know, just trying to make him taller, just trying to make him realize, you know,

some of the positions that he's in maybe aren't, you know. He's fighting the same stance for however long. Forever, exactly. Similar striking, similar moves for a long time. Yeah, I mean, just treating him kind of like a throwing athlete, you know, like any pitcher. You know, got to protect the shoulders, got to make sure that his hips can move

and that they're bulletproof and that he can kind of move around and, you know, be able to attack the way that he kind of wants to attack. You know, it's a, when you look at combat sports, it's not just forward, you know, there's forward, back, lateral. And then there's just a lot of spinning with any sort of, you know, with, with the kicks that they, you know, any sort of high kick, low kick, you know, the, the torque that you put on the hips and everything is, you know, it's very demanding on the rest of, um, the rest of your body. And if you're, you know, uh, one day off your mobility, one day off of, you know, your

hydration or something along those lines, maybe a joint just isn't going to put up with that anymore. And, um, you know, with Kevin, I know that he, you know, the, the mental aspect and, you know, kind of the skill aspect was always there for me. It was really easy. It's just, you know, making sure that he's healthy and, um, it's always going to be a battle with people like Kevin. You know, we were talking on the way up where, you know, they don't want to just take any

fight, but they want to stay busy. And, uh, that's where it's like, you don't necessarily always get a big training camp kind of rolling into things. It's like, you know, you have a fight coming up, but you can't tell anybody, but there might be a one before that, but you're not sure. And the other one might happen too. So it's kind of like this constantly bobbing up and down in the water. And it's just about making sure you can kind of stay healthy, that those little aches and pains can be dealt with in between kind of the fights. And then it's just about making sure that he's fast more than anything else. And you can kind of turn things around.

And I mean, usually when we're further out, we'll lift a little bit heavier. Um, and you know, only a couple of times throughout the week. And then as we get closer, it'll be a couple more times, but it'll be, it'll be a lot about speed and just keeping him, you know, feeling like he's bouncy, like he's fast. And recovery is probably a huge part since you got so many other things to train, right? Yeah. And he does a really good job of that too, of, you know, on his own and, um, rolling into this last fight, you know, I was, I was seeing him in the morning and then I would make sure I had to yell at him and then also have Kirian yell at him to come and see me before he left in the evenings. And I would kind of just, you know, roll him out a little bit and just kind of, you know, because he just kept getting, he was just tightening up, you know, further and further. And, you know, for whatever reason it was during, you know, during that camp that was going on, I think that was where you, that was your

leg was broken or something. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Your fractured knee. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of issues. Yes. Yeah.

So his, his knee was hurt. So he was doing so much more, you know, kind of upper body stuff. He just kept tightening up and getting really, really wound up. So just trying to open that up for him. So, I mean, it's just going to dictate, you know, we're not going to do anything really spectacular fun, you know, um, but it's just about making sure that he can go and perform in the ring. You know, what he does with me is, you know, really insignificant.

You know, it's just basically just making sure that he can go and, you know, go kick the shit out of so many people that they just tighten up on everything they do. And they try to do a hundred percent and they're always just working out. And something I heard Paul check mentioned recently, I've heard people in the past mention it just that you have another attitude about working out that you also kind of work in and you work inward on yourself and you, you take time to take care of yourself. You know, it's not just working out as like half of it and getting sleep and hydration, just working out is like half of it and getting sleep and hydration.

Um, even just, uh, mobility stuff, like some of that stuff has to be a big part of the recipe. Otherwise, how can the wheels are going to fall off? Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, that's, something's been instrumental for me. I mean, Jesse was literally the, uh, I'd say one of the main reasons I was even able to come back from that knee surgery. Good job, Burdick. Thank you.

Because I fought nine months and one week after my ACL replacement, which is just like Wolverine status. But something he really instilled in me was that being able to keep moving, make sure everything's working correctly the way it needs to. And I think that's what's allowed me to continually push it at such a high level at such a late age in the game. And I, 42. So you're going to get kicked. You got to watch out, brother.

I really do feel better than I ever have physically, you know, things definitely hurt, but I feel better now than I did 10 years ago in that aspect of it. I feel functionally better, physically stronger. And, and, uh, I'm a lot more aware of, of when things are hurting, how to make the adjustments needed and still be able to do the work and not just mindlessly go through the motions where I would be causing unnecessary injuries and things like that. So that's something I've really learned about in the last, you know, five, six years is, is how important those things are.

And, and Jesse might say it's a small aspect of it, but, but that's that, uh, foundation, that core, it's the most important aspect of it. So even if it's might be a small piece of it, it's, it's one of the most important pieces of it. It's like one of the main legs of, of the base. Well, it gives you a second to even just the recovery stuff, foam rolling and stuff. It gives you a second to slow down and you can sit there and just think about stuff or even just not think.

Yeah. And some of that Kevin's really good at. Just like chill. Yeah. Something that Kevin's really good at is, is communicating with everybody about what's going on. I mean, he's really in touch with who he is and how he feels and how he's moving. I didn't,

well, yeah, that too. But you know, it's also, you know, when he comes, he was like,

Hey, how you feeling? Like, I'm okay. What do you have going on for the rest of the day? I have X, Y, and Z.

How about tomorrow? I got these things like, okay, cool. Then we'll attack things, you know, you know, from this manner.

So you'll be able to go ahead and do everything that you need to do. I'm like, okay, cool. And then when I go and talk to Kieran, I was like, Hey, how's Kevin? And he's like, Oh, he's, you know, just know, from this manner. So you'll be able to go ahead and do everything that you need to do. I'm like, okay, cool. And then when I go and talk to Kieran, I was like, Hey, how's Kevin? And he's like, Oh, he's, you know, just banged up this, this, this like, okay, cool. We'll dial this back and try and, you know, make things go. And then I talked to Kevin about it. He's like, Oh yeah, cool. Great.

That sounds awesome. And, you know, you know, communication, especially when you have, you know, you're dealing with four or five people who are helping you out, coaching you, you know what I mean? You gotta be able to, you know, those people need to four or five people who are helping you out, coaching you, you know what I mean? You gotta be able to, you know, those people need to be able to talk with each other and then you need to be able to talk, you know, intelligently with those people to really make things kind of a fire on all

cylinders. So who's more handsome of a coach, Jesse or Kieran? Well, it's kind of tough. What I think, or what I was told. I mean,

are you into the larger head? I plead the fifth on this one. I don't want you to hate me. It's a tie. Because, yeah, it's a tie. All right. Well, that's all the time we got. Strength is never weakness.

Weakness is never strength. Make sure you follow Kevin Ross everywhere you can find him. I think he's on Instagram. What's your Instagram? I'm all over the place. The Soul Assassin with a D-A. Oh yeah, The Soul Assassin

and that is from him breaking people's souls. So hopefully he doesn't do that to me for saying that he's older than he really is. Strength is never a weakness. Weakness is never a strength.

See you guys later.