Mark Bell's Power Project - Psychedelics Saved My Life (Shawn Wells Opens Up About Depression & Healing)

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

In this episode, Shawn Wells gets real about his journey through depression, trauma, and the mindset that almost destroyed him, and how psychedelic-assisted work helped him rebuild his relationship with himself, with God, and with life.Guest: Shawn WellsInstagram: @shawnwellshttps://shawnwells.com/Special perks for our listeners below!🥩 HIGH QUALITY PROTEIN! 🍖 ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWER to save 20% off site wide, or code POWERPROJECT to save an additional 5% off your Build a Box Subscription!🩸 Get your BLOODWORK/TRT/PEPTIDES! 🩸 ➢ https://marekhealth.com and use code "POWERPROJECT" for 10% off Self-Service Labs and Guided Optimization®.🧠 Methylene Blue: Better Focus, Sleep and Mood 🧠 Use Code POWER10 for 10% off!➢https://troscriptions.com?utm_source=affiliate&ut-m_medium=podcast&ut-m_campaign=MarkBel-I_podcastBest 5 Finger Barefoot Shoes! 👟 ➢ https://Peluva.com/PowerProject Code POWERPROJECT15 to save 15% off Peluva Shoes!Self Explanatory 🍆 ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1Pumps explained: https://youtu.be/qPG9JXjlhpM?si=JZN09-FakTjoJuaW🚨 The Best Red Light Therapy Devices and Blue Blocking Glasses On The Market! 😎➢https://emr-tek.com/Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!👟 BEST LOOKING AND FUNCTIONING BAREFOOT SHOES 🦶➢https://vivobarefoot.com/powerproject🥶 The Best Cold Plunge Money Can Buy 🥶 ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements!➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!

While there was abuse in my background, there was no one that abused me more than me. It was really about me being unbelievably depressed and on a suicidal path. Depression is your body saying we want to experience less life because life is hurting us. To me, it's like, especially with mushrooms, it holds a mirror up to me. And I'm like, I don't need to see all that. And it was the first time in my life that it finally hit me that I could have love and be love. And I was worth loving. knowing that I had purpose, I had value outside of my accomplishments.

Forgiveness is so powerful. People think it's about the other person that you're forgiving, that forgiveness is for you. What action figures that? This is John Cena. I thought so. There you go. Got stone cold and then just in case anybody gets out of line, we got Jesus Christ here as well. Okay.

Got a good combo of people up there. All right, Sean, well, you know, we've talked about supplements on another podcast and we went over a bunch of stuff with peptides. You talked to us about nutrition and keto and a bunch of other things that you've been doing, but you also know a lot about psychedelics. Yeah, this is the one where it might get a little deep. Like I might get a little emotional on this because it's a very powerful topic to me. I've spoke on stage about it a fair amount and I was on a suicidal path. Wow. And yeah, what made you first start to kick around the idea of psychedelics?

I think, you know, before you start to really learn anything about them, they seem very scary. It seems like, oh man, I don't want any part of that. That sounds like I'm going to lose control in my mind and that I'm going to like jump out of a window. A thousand percent agreed with that. I grew up with the, you know, the 80s culture of, you know, anti-drug and drugs are scary and... Just say no. Yeah, just say no, all the things. Now, looking back, I have a very different view of all that.

But to me, these drugs were for hippies, were for escapists, were for losers. I had, you know, scary stories of, like, you know, LSD and, you know, it comes back, like, 10 years later and you can have a trip in the middle of the, you know, highway and all these horror stories that I heard of just, you know, Satanists and people like that are using these drugs and... You think addiction too. Yeah, like I... That's what I always think of when I think of drugs in general.

I was just thinking that you're going to get, like, addicted to it and be a burnout. Yeah, burnouts. Exactly. Like people that, like, don't work, don't contribute anything. And what's ironic is I started to change my mind on it. through 2017 leading up to the start of 2020, I was hearing about, you know, I was kind of gaining status in the biohacking realm.

Like I talk a lot on biohacking. We didn't do a podcast on biohacking, maybe the next podcast. But, you know, like all the things on biohacking. And so I was listening to people that became good friends over time. We talked about some of them that you have books. of here like I was listening to Tim Ferriss and Dave Asprey and Ben Greenfield and they were all talking about microdosing and they were talking about some of these psychedelics that like really

helped with their performance and biohacking and like really you know helped with trauma helped with you know helped with feeling more relaxed help with their sleep help with their HRVs big shout out to Tim Ferriss by the way because huge that's someone who was so successful so successful early on. And then he had the courage kind of come forward and start talking about those things. And you're like, why does Tim Ferriss have any problems? Seems like he's doing great. You know, but we don't realize that we, you know, we all have a history.

We all have a past. We all have an interpretation of ourselves. And all of us have anxiety, depression to some sort of degree that hits us in particular ways throughout our life. So we all got problems. We all got problems. And like, interestingly, a lot of the wealth that I'm around. in a lot of my circles, masterminds, and things like that, you'd think, oh, these people are

multi-millioners. I know people that are seven, eight, nine, ten figure entrepreneurs. And you think, oh, these people don't have problems? No. They have some of the most problems. The reason that they were pushing so hard to acquire wealth was because of the fear, the pain, the isolation, the trauma that they've been through. And they don't want to ever be idle.

They don't ever want to be idle on looking inward and all those kinds of things. So going back to those guys, they were just talking about psychedelics in relation to performance. And it was really shifting my mindset because I thought, oh, performance. I want more performance. I want to be able to, you know, have less sleep and get more done and, you know, like, keep ascending the ladder. And meanwhile, not knowing that they could transform my life, like on the most fundamental level, like literally shift my epigenetics, shift my trauma that, you know, I had grown up, bullied and coming from a very difficult home as well. And so, you know, really home and school

were very difficult. And, uh, and I was morbidly obese. Like I mentioned to you later, I've had a lot of autoimmune issues. Were you real heavy as like a young child? Yeah. Yeah. I was, I'm 6'2 and I got up to like 300 pounds and, and then I became anorexic later and got down to about 150 pounds. And then I was orthorexic, like working out and having to get six to eight small meals a day in my protein and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I've kind of been through all of the range that you can be through and body dysmorphia and disordered eating. But taking psychedelics, which I finally opened myself up to going into, 2020 at a New Year's party with in my field a lot of celebrities actually people maybe even that

I had just mentioned before I won't name them by name but some people that are very significant many people at this party actually that with it was a facilitated group so there was real facilitators that have been doing this work for 20 years but a lot of significant people in my space that didn't really know me and up until that point I was always introducing myself with with my resume of why I'm important, why you should know me. And I have value because of, you know, whatever I've accomplished. Because I was insecure, had pain, and didn't believe I had much value in my heart of hearts.

And I believe that love was very fleeting. There was no such thing as unconditional love. You had to gain it somehow. I had to earn it. Yeah, exactly. And so I was at this, I shouldn't say party. It was just, again, about 20 people that were being facilitated on a mushroom journey. And I ended up going in on more heroic dose.

I just needed more like I was not feeling what I needed to feel and I kind of needed to be hit over the head. And I thought this was about performance and it was really about me being unbelievably depressed and on a suicidal path. I was either going to kill myself directly or I was going to kill myself through my work. I was working over 80 hours a week at the time. And I was there in what they call like a what I know now is like a cuddle puddle, kind of like laying on the floor and, you know, blankets and pillows and just really, you know, connecting with the mushrooms with God, like with my inner child, all the things. and people were around me and they were checking on me.

They were getting me fruit, getting me something to drink, helping me to the bathroom, like caressing me, like holding space for me. And I kept saying to myself the whole night, I'm like, why are they here? They don't know who I am. They're really important. I'm nothing to them. Why are they helping me? Why are they here?

And it was the first time in my life that it finally, hit me that I could have love and be loved and I was worth loving and it just shifted my heart shifted my brain and like I remember staring at the ceiling after everyone was asleep and I came out of this journey and just literally for two or three hours everyone was asleep around me and I'm just staring at the ceiling like oh my god my whole life is different like it just shifted everything literally changed my epigenetics. Probably I was probably 10 years younger biologically after that, releasing that and just knowing that I had purpose,

I had value outside of my accomplishments, that I could go find love, like real love, and I could be loved. Because up until that point, I was married in a very platonic marriage, and she was a great person, but it was more like brother and sister kind of thing. and we ended up getting divorced, like after working through everything.

And I've since found a woman that I plan to marry, my fiancé. And my whole life has shifted because of that self-love. And I continued to dive into this work because I saw how profound it was. And I knew that a lot of people were hurting. And I could use my biochemistry, my scientist background to legitimize this instead of like, you know, the the woo side of it, you know, where, which I appreciate, there is a very spiritual side of it. There is kind of a woo side of it that is very real. And since I've learned to very much appreciate a lot of that

stuff. But using my background as like a scientist, as a skeptic, as someone who's transformed their life directly with it, I've been able to help legitimize the discussion on stage, talk about veterans and what they're going through and not having access to these things. And I think people that are highly traumatized need to. We were talking about that documentary Waves and War on Netflix that I think is incredible. There's also Michael Pollan's documentary on Netflix, How to Change Your Mind, where he goes through several of the psychedelics. I think he goes through ketamine, LSD, psilocybin, maybe MDMA. I don't remember. I think there's four that he goes through, which is another great documentary.

I really recommend both of those, very powerful. And, you know, I talked about on stage that I wouldn't be alive had I not had access to these things. I know that for a fact. I would have been dead, like I said, directly or indirectly at the pace I was on. and so doing these compounds having this insight I can't speak to it more like how much it transformed my life transformed my relationship with myself

with God with my family with my friends with my businesses it's transformed everything I do like I really felt like I was just climbing climbing climbing if I was on Ben Greenfield's podcast, I would punish myself that I wasn't on Joe Rogan's podcast. If I had the bestselling book, it was like, well, it's not on New York Times bestseller. It's not like if I made a million dollars that you didn't make $5 million. You know, if I got this car, well, you don't have that car. You know, whatever it is, like there was always another level and I was always punishing myself.

And it was, I never enjoyed any moment or anything. It was always like, you can do better. And while there was abuse in my background, there was no one that abused me more than me. And like to release so much of that. Need to be like shown now. Oh man. I have an experience. I mean, I guess maybe you could go to like a therapist perhaps.

But these drugs, I think, give you like almost like more direct access. And maybe all the walls and stuff are probably just, you don't have to deal with that. That part of it going to somebody and trying to open. open up to somebody could probably take years as opposed to what you did probably was a little quicker. Psychotherapy is powerful and that is similar to what's happening with a good facilitator where there's intentions and then integration which is critical after a psychedelic journey is having a facilitator integrate with you and help you over the next coming weeks and months like actually put some of these learnings, these epiphanies into practice. But psychotherapy on its own doesn't work that well.

And I may take a hit for that on that quote, but it's true that default mode network is at its highest when you're getting questioned by someone else. And default mode network is literally your ego, your barrier is up. Your ego is full of constructs, the stories you make, and a lot of ways that ego protects us and is good, but it also can create stories that are untrue. And it's a version of your reality. And when you're in psychedelics, your default mode network is essentially turned off. Ego is turned down. Neuplasticity is turned up, which is BDNF, NGF, MTOR in the brain. So the brain can more readily make changes. There is new synestries. synaptic firing that's happening. There's more blood flow to the brain. Depression is often thought of

as serotonin and that is false. It's actually all the neurotransmitters are turned down in depression. So it's not just serotonin, serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine, norepinephine, epinephenephrine, epinephenephrine, you know, you just go down the line of all these neurotransmitters. You want to feel less. Your body is saying like we want to experience less life because life is hurting us. And literally you experience brighter color, more sound. You take in more senses wise in psychedelics because it's turning life up. It's allowing you to feel in a safe way if you're in a safe environment. I could maybe say maybe correct me if I'm wrong but like let's say I'm your therapist right and I'm communicating back and forth with you, I'm reflecting what you're telling me.

Yes. So you can be reflective on yourself, basically, right? Exactly. But with a psychedelic, it's an actual reflection of you, not just what you're not just what you're trying to say. Right. And you can't hide from like the truth. So that's the way I look at psychedelics. I don't have a lot of experience, just mainly mushrooms, a little bit of LSD. But to me it's like, especially with mushrooms, it's like, and I don't even really like mushrooms for this reason. I like, I like, I'm like, no, I don't want any more mushrooms because it just holds a mirror up to me. And I'm like, I don't need to see all that right now. It's hard.

It's hard. And actually the most powerful work you can do on psychedelics is literal mirror work. Looking at yourself in the mirror. I never heard that for. Yes, having a discussion with yourself, like giving yourself affirmations, like why you love yourself or talking to yourself and speaking the truth or admiring your body instead of hating it. or, you know, just spending time with yourself in the mirror can be very profound. It made me, like, admire my wife even more. It's like, why don't you pay more attention to your wife?

I'm like, I'm thinking, I do pay attention, you know? Like you're trying to fight back a little bit. It's like, okay, you do, but you could do a better job. Yeah. I'm like, really? I'm like, okay, all right, I'll go back and do that. Yeah, exactly. And so when those, you know, neurotransmitters are turned up and default mode network is

turned down and neuroplasticity is turned up, there's a lot that can happen in that environment. And again, I'll reiterate that integration is super important. And this is where a facilitator not only can make the environment of the psychedelic experience safe, but then work with you in the coming weeks and months to really integrate these experiences. And like, you know, you don't want to get into a space where you learn your truth and then just go back to your normal life because there's actually like, it could almost do more harm than good once you have that kind of cognitive dissonance of like, you know, you know what the, you know, it's no longer like kind of hiding underneath the rug. You know what your thing is and what you need to fix, but you're just ignoring it because you went back to your

how did you find that kind of help? Like where it were like, I just had incredible facilitators. I happened to stumble into that. Some people that, again, I admired for biohacking that were, you know, running an incredible conference at the time that I was speaking at that were friends with all those people that I had mentioned before that were speakers there. They led me down that path and amazingly they were just the most incredible facilitators. They had been doing work for 20 years in that space. It's actually Ta and Cole Whitty. They don't mind me speaking their names. And they're in Austin. Is that type of therapy called something in particular, like where you have because I don't think I've ever heard of this before where you have psychedelics,

but then you also have somebody that's going to, like, manage you through the psychedelics after the psychedelic experience? Yeah, a psychedelic facilitator or integrator or, you know, someone along those lines. I don't trust anyone who says guru or shaman. Like, that is, I mean, there's people potentially, like, in Peru and Brazil that are actual shaman that, like, spend more time in what we'd call, like, the 5D than the 3D, and those people are on a whole different plane. I've gone through some ayahuasca experiences

and I have a lot of respect for people that are kind of living more in this spirit world than our world. And that is no joke. And I have seen some wild stuff as I've gone through some of these experiences that I cannot explain on the scientific level. There's definitely stuff that is tough to explain. Have you seen the elves?

I have not. I know like the, yeah, the machine elves and the aliens and, you know, the other things that people see on DMT. And I have not experienced that. But my first ayahuasca experience, like I truly experienced just love and light. And I was like hugging myself. Because I, we were in a Maloka, which is kind of like a circular. church, if you will, and there's like a fire in the middle. And there's a whole family, a mother and her three children were holding space, like a tribe. They were chanting and, you know, they have

their feathers and all the things that they're wearing and incredible people. But we, there was about 12 of us and we were kind of like, you know, laying down like spokes on a wheel, you know, around them and you're not supposed to interact with each other after you, you know, drink the brew. And I was just laying there and just hugging myself, telling myself, like, how proud I am of myself, that I love myself. It's what I was looking for. My whole life is validation, I believe, from my father. And I ended up giving it to myself. And it was so powerful that I was like, you're so strong. You're so brave. Like, thank you so much. And like literally hugging myself and like your heart is so powerful. I love you.

for that. Like to say these things to myself that I was just dying to hear my whole life from other people and I was a people pleaser as a result of it was so powerful once I gave that to myself. I didn't need it from others as much. But man, like the lights that I saw, it was like something like Tron or the Matrix or, I mean, these lights were like so neon and so incredible. It's very much like when you see psychedelic art, like you realize like where this kind of hyper neon kind of coloring is coming from. It's like in your brain and it's wild to think that people thousands of years ago were probably seeing these colors before these colors existed in paints or movies or whatever.

But yes, like ayahuasca was very transformative as well. And then I would imagine like each different. drug maybe, you know, sends you down a different path, right? Like, uh, ayahuasca versus, uh, ibogaine versus, uh, DMT. Exactly. Exactly. Well, the DMT is kind of an active in ayahuasca and there's an MIOI that, um, kind of like extends its action. Um, and like 5MEO is kind of like the, the super weaponized version of DMT. Is that, The toad thing? The toad, Bufo. That's one, like, you get 15 minutes and you just shoot right to God, and it's a really incredible experience. Remarkable. That's something like that exists. Like, I don't.

Well, DMT is the, you know, is the, they call it the spirit molecule. And literally it's what your brain secretes when you're, when you're dying potentially. You can do like hypertrophic breathwork that kind of simulates that where you have a pretty good DMT release. And I've had very psychedelic experiences with just breathwork. That is very powerful. But yeah, I went to, it's hard to explain. I don't know if I'd be able to handle that right. It really feels like you go to God or to space or the ether or the universe or the collective, the connected.

You feel like you're part of all. There's no separation anymore between you, God. universe, us as people standing here, nature, you feel connected to everything. You are connected to everything. You are everything. You are God. You are me. I'm you. Like there's no separation. And like in that I got this clarity around never having been born or dying either. And so that kind of rush to acquire or accomplish or, you know, just hurry up because death is imminent left my body. And again, like, that was a massive release and relaxation. I will never go to a doctor ever again about my general health.

All they want to do is put you on pills. Really well said there by Dana White. Couldn't agree with them more. A lot of us are trying to get jacked and tan. A lot of us just want to look good, feel good. And a lot of the symptoms that we might acquire as we get old. or some of the things that we might have, high cholesterol or these various things,

it's amazing to have somebody looking at your blood work as you're going through the process, as you're trying to become a better athlete, somebody that knows what they're doing, they can look at your cholesterol, they can look at the various markers that you have, and they can kind of see where you're at, and they can help guide you through that.

And there's a few aspects, too, where it's like, yes, I mean, no, no shades of doctors, but a lot of times they do want to just stick you on medication. A lot of times there is supplementation that can help with this. At Merrick Health, these patient care coronators are going to also look at the way you're living your lifestyle because there's a lot of things you might be doing that if you just adjust that, boom, you could be at the right levels, including working with your testosterone. And there's so many people that I know that are looking for, they're like, hey, should I do that?

They're very curious. And they think that testosterone is going to all of a sudden kind of turn them into the Hulk. But that's not really what happens. It can be something that can be really great for your health because you can just basically live your life a little stronger, just like you were maybe in your 20s and 30s. And this is the last thing to keep in mind, guys. When you get your blood work done at a hospital,

they're just looking at like these minimum levels. At Merrick Health, they try to bring you up to ideal levels for everything you're working with. Whereas if you go into a hospital and you have 300 nanograms per deciliter of test, you're good, bro. Even though you're probably feeling like shit. At Merrick Health, they're going to try to figure out

what type things you can do in, your lifestyle. And if you're a candidate, potentially TRT. So these are things to pay attention to to get you to your best self. And what I love about it is a little bit of the back and forth that you get with the patient care coordinator. They're dissecting your blood work. It's not like if you just get this email back and it's just like, hey, try these five things. Somebody's actually on the phone with you going over every step and what you should do. Sometimes it's supplementation. Sometimes it's TRT. And sometimes it's simply just some lifestyle habit change. All right, guys, if you want to get your blood work checked and also get professional help from people who are going to be able to get you towards your best levels,

heads to Merichhealth.com and use code Power Project for 10% off any panel of your choice. That I got. And just to be clear on their, like to hate does not make sense because for me to hate you because of your color or gender or sexual preference or whatever doesn't make sense like you are me like i am you like your your pain is my pain and once you have that like empathy like it's it's again transformative too like each experience each medicine has had very different lessons but all very powerful we had a c t fletcher on the podcast years ago um and c t fletcher unfortunately Unfortunately, he was abused by his father, abused quite a bit. And he just remembers, like, his dad, you know, when he'd come home,

he'd jiggle his keys and, like, he would hear the key, you know, and just like, this is awful. He gave us kind of this rundown of what he experienced. And it was just horrific. And he said that, you know, his dad, his dad was passing. It was pretty clear his dad was going to go. And he went and visited his dad. And for sure, he thought his dad was going to be like, hey, son, you know what?

I'm sorry, you know, and that would be. And C.T. was like, you know, kind of, he wasn't excited, but he, you know, he was hoping that that would happen. And it didn't. His dad lived for a little bit longer and his dad had another like hiccup. And so C.T. just said, you know what? I'm going to try to handle this differently this time because I know I'm not going to get that from him. And so C.T. went to his dad and he apologized to him. He said, I'm sorry.

I'm not the son that you wanted. and he just C.T.'s like, he's like, I haven't cried in like 40 years. He's like, I was bawling. He's like, he said that he didn't really get much from his dad. He's like, emotion wise from that. But he gave him a hug. And he just bounced. And he said that when he left, just all that was just gone. It was just gone. Forgiveness is so powerful. People think it's about the other person that you're forgiving. And it's, it's like, There's some, his dad probably has so much shame around that and stuff. He probably couldn't. Totally.

Totally. It's hard to, yeah, it's hard to kind of iterate that. There's some proverb about, I think it's like Buddha about holding the hot coal. That it's like, it's like, we think that like holding on to like anger like is, like something. To anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else. You are the one who gets burned. Boom. Yeah, you can't throw it fast.

Yeah, that's the thing. Like holding onto this stuff is killing you. It's not killing them. I mean, maybe it is. I don't know, but like you don't know someone else's journey, but it's killing you. Holding on, like that forgiveness is for you. And it's so powerful. Another journey I had, it was called the Clarogenic.

This one isn't really psychedelic. It's a very high-dose ketamine and very high-dose MDMA. So it's very like heart opening and disqualification. associative. So very different than like, you know, mushrooms and ayahuasca and these things that are more like psychedelic in nature. This is like just gushing gratitude and love. And they're literally recording you while you're there and you're just speaking your truth and just stuff is gushing out of you for about six hours. And I forgave all these people that had hurt me that had driven my success and drive, success, if you will, coming at a cost. But like, it drove my drive that I had

all this trauma of being burned, being used, being manipulated, having stuff stolen. It like made me push so hard to accomplish and I kept this hate inside of me. And I forgave all of these people. I went down the line and it was like 10 or 15 people that I'd been really hurt by in my life. And not only did I forgive them, I was speaking out all these beautiful things about them, seeing what's beautiful in them. And you talked about the mirror, that is a reflection of me. How I view you is a reflection of me. And so the beauty I see in you is the beauty I see in myself. If I hate you and I don't see any beauty in you, that is me hating myself.

like we project on others all the time and so this experience was already so powerful I was actually working with a kind of therapist life coach at the time and I like told her like because I had to transcribe all this stuff and I was like reading her all of these things about all this forgiveness I had for these people and all the incredible gifts and beauty I saw on them like this guy's brilliant and you know I loved his charisma

or his ideas and stuff that I would have never said. I would have never given them that outside of this environment. I'm just reading it. Like I was crying. It was already powerful. And she's like, awesome. Now drop out their names and read me all of that with your name. And motherfucker.

Like you want to talk about like gagging, sobbing. Not only would I have not said this about them. I have never said this stuff about myself. And again, it's stuff I crave to hear for years and years and years of my childhood and beyond. And to just read that stuff. And it was all true of me. Like there were all the things that I saw in me but never, never could say. Like so, yeah, each of these journeys like very, very powerful and transformative into a man that's standing here right now.

do you feel like you need to like re-up that at all? Is there any reasons for you to explore that further? I do. I think so. For some people, they get what they need and they say they're done and just listen to your own intuition. Don't deny your intuition. That would be silly.

I mean, a good facilitator always says, where else does that show up in your life? Like a lot of the stuff that comes up in a journey is like, you know, if you're irritated by, someone laughing too much and it's like that's a projection that's a you thing and those things come up in these journeys where you have these epiphanies kind of like you're saying like with the mirror right is like it really shines the light on you and they'll always say like where else does that show up in your life you know when you're trying to hurry through something or a thing that would come up for me

a lot in journeys is uh no i'm good i'm good i'm good no no i'm good i don't need anything no check on them. Like, I always felt like I was a burden. Where else does that show up in my life? You know, like, I would say affecting. Yeah, like I would never ask for help. But I was always giving people help, but never ask for help, no matter how bad it was. What do you think that is? That I thought I was a burden, that I thought I wasn't worth it. That, you know, that I didn't think that they'd show up so I don't want to even bother. I think for myself, you know, speaking for myself, I do something similar. I think it's so I don't have to like think about myself.

You know what I mean? That's fair too. Like you think about someone else's nice distraction about your own concerns over yourself. You sit there with your own thoughts and stuff like that. It could be a nasty place to hang out sometimes. It's the hardest work to do is the inner work. I mean, that's the work that's inside of your heart.

I mean, if you want to listen to some powerful philosophers, just brilliant voices on all of this stuff, go down the rabbit hole of Ram Dass and Alan Watts. And those two guys are like, you'll just, I can listen to them both for hours. And honestly, the most powerful book that probably set the stage for me to even do psychedelics was the four agreements. I know it gets said a lot, but Don Miguel Ruiz. Like, that was amazing for me, that book.

So those are probably my big guns right there. Luis, Alan Watts, and Ram Dass. Where did this journey start for you? Like what, like, yeah, where did, I know you mentioned you had some friends and you were able to kind of, like, where do you think people should maybe try to start? Is there a direct path? You start with mushrooms. You start with a microdose.

You start. How do you kind of get in this whole thing? Yeah. I mean, it's tough to make the recommendations because you don't want to be held liable for it. But I would say, like, having a good facilitator. is key. Being safe is key. If you are a woman that's been through sexual assault or trauma, this male facilitator may be awesome and like maybe trusted by all your friends and could be the kindest, like most genuine person in the world and it's not right for you right now. Like that's,

that's just not how your body's going to feel safe. Like there may be for each person, it's different. So you're going to have to find the person that makes you feel safe that also does a deep dive on you prior to the journey that understands like your background. Ideally, there's someone there that has medical experience, just in case. I think that's part of feeling safe. The environment itself has to feel safe. Like, you know, there's pillows and blankets and relaxing things around, not triggering things. You know, bathroom is close by. There's a sitter that can help you know if you are just sobbing like they can sit with you and hold you or whatever it is like maybe maybe end up laughing you know whatever but waves and more um that scene where they're on the beach

and this guy's lying down he's got like a you know thing over his eyes he's supposed to be like kind of resting and just thinking and so forth and he starts to kind of have a breakdown he gets frustrated and he gets up and he kind of starts to walk and he's got like two or three buddies right there with him. They're not really sure exactly what to do necessarily just because you don't know what to do because someone's going through like a really rough time. So the one guy is just kind of like patting his back, like rubbing his back as they're sitting there on the beach. And the guy's just kind of like, you can tell he's uncomfortable. He's like, I just said something to the effect of like, I don't want to be going through this right now. And they're like, this is what you're going through. Like there's,

you're in it. And this, this. This, this. this, you know, last a certain amount of time. So, you know, relax and to breathe. And they got them back. They got him back to, like, calming down and being able to get through it. But I was like, oh, man, that's got to be whatever he's thinking about, you know, he must be having a real uncomfortable time with it. Yeah.

And the more work you do, which is part of this experience, is like, the more I get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And therefore, this is about getting into parasympathetic in your autonomic nervous system about getting into kind of your rest and digest, right? Sympathetics, fight, flight or freeze. The deeper you can get into parasympathetic, meaning the deeper you can get relaxed,

the deeper you go into this space. Whatever medicine you're on, it has very little to do with body size and dose plays a role, but like it actually has a lot more to do with your nervous system and how much you're allowing it, how much you're surrendering to it. This is why safety is important because you can surrender more. So if someone's there holding space for you, you realize how important that term is.

It's not just some woo term. Someone just being there beside you allows you to anchor and relax. And you realize, you'll start to realize, like, in life that there's certain. people that you can relax around and you realize what holding space is and how powerful that is as a trait and it's why like after I started doing this work I started really owning like this idea of being like the quiet the proud the lion you know the protector the provider but people could be safe around me that I wasn't taking advantage of them I wasn't trying to gain something from them

I was literally being a protector, provider, a spaceholder. That became very, very important for me after doing some really deep work in psychedelics and seeing how powerful holding space really is. Out of all the different psychedelics that you utilized, which ones were most effective for you? Well, as I discussed, they're all different experiences, and I got different learnings from each one. I don't know.

Like, maybe... It's all like layers and steps. It's all layers, yeah. I would say someone just going to like 5MEO or ayahuasca or maybe like Ibogaine and waves and water. Maybe that might be a little too much too fast. It might be asking a little too much. I think doing like, you know, microdosing,

mini-dosing or kind of regular. Dosing not a heroic dose of mushrooms like is probably the gentlest way to start and then maybe even Doing like MDA or MDMA like as a heart opener so that you don't feel as anxious I think having the mushrooms in like a ceremonial cacao can kind of slow the the way it hits you I think for some people Having just you know chewing a pure mushroom or having what's called lemon-teching a mushroom like where it's activated and converted into its active psilicin it can be like kind of sliding down the fire pole it can be a little too much so i believe like if i was to kind of lay out

like the the perfect journey i think it would be mda or mdMA heart opener psilocybin ceremonial cacao about two to two and a half grams of something like a golden teacher which is like kind of a lighter strain. The next day I would do Wachuma, which lasts about 10 to 12 hours. It's also called San Pedro. The act of mescaline. And it helps you just get present and calms your nervous system. And there's kind of a mindfulness and a clarity that comes in that just relaxes your whole physiology that allows you to integrate your experience. Because sometimes having these big experiences and then just going back out of the world can be very abrupt, like on your physiology. So definitely taking a Friday, Saturday, Sunday is the way I would do it.

Friday night you do your experience, the MDMA, MDA, you know, psilocybin ceremonial cacao, the journey the next day doing whatchuma. And then Sunday probably doing like an integration in the group with a facilitator. I think that would be kind of the way I would lay that out. Yeah, it sounds like it's important to do it in almost like a ceremony like fashion rather than just like being off on your own somewhere. Yeah, it just goes back to being intentional about it. It's no different with your listeners that are, you know, know about the data with like bodybuilding and, you know, intentionality of just, you know, focusing on your muscle. and there's studies where like just the thought of lifting that weight increased muscular

recruitment and and activation and hypertrophy. And so like just having intentionality around something's going to be accomplished. And honestly, the accountability of being seen in the group. You know, there's fear that goes into that, but there's also like a no turning back and I'm going to this and also when you see other people going through their transformations going through their shit you realize that there's there's this lie that we go through where we feel like we're all alone i know in depression and when i was suicidal all these things like that's what i believed is i was all alone in this no one else knew what i was going through no one else could have dreamed of this

and then you're in these groups and you see everyone's going through shit everyone is dealing with something And a lot of people have your almost exact same story. Exactly. Exactly. And so when you see someone else going through transformation, like they're deciding to leave their job, leave their spouse, leave their abusive environment, you know, own up to, you know, whatever, being gay or whatever it is. Like they're just like, cool.

Like this is, this is who I am. and like, and I've been denying myself for too long, I'm going to step into my truth, whatever that looks like for them. When you witness someone else do what's been too difficult for them to do for too long, but then decide to do it, it's empowering. It's like the Roger Bannister thing of the four-minute mile, right?

Like you've heard like once he broke it, everyone broke it. Right. To be around it is very powerful in these environments. What's it been like to see some of these people after you've gone through those treatments, see some of the people that abused you, took advantage of you. Did you kind of view them differently? Did you say anything to them? Or you just kind of like just have a better understanding of them, something like that?

Yeah. It really is like that a few things that hurt people, hurt people. You start to realize that that. Again, going back to that holding the hot stone thing that does you no good. You see people are doing the best that they can, that they were hurt, they were traumatized as well, and they're dealing with pain too. And you're caught up in your own story, but they were caught up in their story. And they weren't thinking about the impact they were having on you.

They were trying to survive their trauma, their story. And so once you start to see things from a God's eye view, you just, release it and allow it and you actually feel sorry for them and then you start to empathize with them the people that are hurting you now i'm not saying stick around with a narcissist like that doesn't make sense but you know a lot of people are not narcissists and they're just stuck in their story they're they're they're victims as well and once you leave behind your victimhood and you empower yourself there's no turning back no one the only power they have is the power you give them right and so once you take your power back by stepping into your truth being in integrity with your

truth no one has power over you anymore would you like to have children yes yes yeah that's cool and then you can you know supply them with all the nurturing things that you feel they need to grow and expand and to maybe not run into some of the same issues that you did exactly right exactly yeah i have a bonus hard because you need to have like you know a lot of blind spots as a parent's not easy totally i have a bonus daughter right now uh i don't know where the rest ends up but um it's something i actually like that was part of some some trauma i had to work through his seven years of my my prior wife we tried all the things went through IVF lost lost a couple times and it just it was it was very difficult but uh yeah doing this this process i'm

in a very different place and and i'm i'm i think in and the point i'm at in life i'm 51 i'm starting to think about legacy you know it's it's less about accomplishment i think i've i've done quite a bit like I'm at the top of my career and now I'm thinking of like what's next and it's more about legacy and impact and like what I'm leaving behind versus like what's in front of me you know it's it's a different it's a different thought process and I'm definitely thinking very differently awesome thank you so much for sharing all that that was absolutely incredible where can people find you at sean wells S-H-A-W-L-L-S and then Sean Wells.com S-H-A-W-W-E-L-L-S and then Sean Wells dot com, S-H-A-W-N, and I have all kinds of cool infographics, stacks, newsletters, all of it's free.

You can learn how to work with me there. I have courses, my book, the Energy Formula, best-selling biohacking book. That's Audible, e-book, hardcover, soft cover. You can take the chorus for it there. I have a chorus on Mind Valley's platform called the Ultimate Guide to Supplements. and if you have any questions, DM me, and I would be glad to answer them and connect with you. Strength is never weakness.

Weeks is never strength. Catch you guys later. Bye.