Mark Bell's Power Project - The Anatomy Of Therapy: Tools to Take Your Physical Therapy Into Your OWN Hands - MBPP EP. 736

Episode Date: May 19, 2022

Today we are joined by Bobby Riley and John Cybulski, better known as The Anatomy of Therapy, Two rehab-based chiropractors each with over 10 years clinical experience treating a wide array of people and injuries. 1+ million followers on IG, with several programs and Patreon memberships to help you rebuild yourself from home. A must follow on IG: https://www.instagram.com/theanatomyoftherapy/ More info can be found on their site: https://www.theanatomyoftherapy.com/ Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the new Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw Special perks for our listeners below! ➢https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!! ➢Enlarging Pumps (This really does work): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 ➢https://www.vivobarefoot.com/us/powerproject Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off Vivo Barefoot shoes! ➢https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off site wide including Within You supplements! ➢https://mindbullet.com/ Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢https://eatlegendary.com Use Code POWERPROJECT for 20% off! ➢https://bubsnaturals.com Use code POWERPROJECT for 20% of your next order! ➢https://verticaldiet.com/ Use code POWERPROJECT for 20% off your first order! ➢https://vuoriclothing.com/powerproject to automatically save 20% off your first order at Vuori! ➢https://www.eightsleep.com/powerproject to automatically save $150 off the Pod Pro at 8 Sleep! ➢https://marekhealth.com Use code POWERPROJECT10 for 10% off ALL LABS at Marek Health! Also check out the Power Project Panel: https://marekhealth.com/powerproject Use code POWERPROJECT for $101 off! ➢Piedmontese Beef: https://www.piedmontese.com/ Use Code POWER at checkout for 25% off your order plus FREE 2-Day Shipping on orders of $150 Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ https://www.facebook.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/mbpowerproject ➢ LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/powerproject/ ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject ➢TikTok: http://bit.ly/pptiktok FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ https://www.breakthebar.com/learn-more ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en Follow Andrew Zaragoza on all platforms ➢ https://direct.me/iamandrewz #TheAnatomyofTherapy #TAOT #PowerProject #Podcast #MarkBell

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to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes you guys watched house sure that was my favorite show so that was one of my favorite shows as a kid house yeah you know that show the doctor doctor house he's like this uh everything's lupus is that what it was in the show that was that was like the saying everything's lupus because they always had to rule that out in every case what's that an autoimmune disorder everything's an autoimmune disorder right what was the what's the deer tick one um everything is lupus or lyme disease in house 100 that's interesting you get bit by a tick and then you have a disease isn't that weird that's pretty wacky we're so soft what happened what are you doing oh here we go collagen protein He's making up these mixtures on here all the time.

We got a chemist on the show today? We did have one before. The gorilla chemist. The gorilla chemist. Yeah. That was a good episode. You guys should go check that out. But this one's better, so stay here.

Have you guys ever tried some Mind Bullet? No. Yeah, we have some Mind Bullet. I don't know if doctors do Mind Bullet. They'll do it. Drink it. Just drink it. Don't ask questions.

I don't do. Drink the whole thing. Don't you guys have a chaser? It doesn't mind bullet. They'll do it. Drink it. Just drink it. Don't ask questions. I don't do. Drink the whole thing. Drink it. Don't you guys have a chaser? It doesn't. You don't have a chaser? Yeah, I do. It's fantastic.

I'm going to take some. You won't. I'll do it. Want to hit these mind bullets? I did capsules earlier, so I'm good. You did capsules. That's what it sounds like my dad talking about marijuana. He's like, did you do grass today?

Did you have a marijuana cigarette? Did you do pot? Smoke pot, yeah. Down the hatch. How's it taste? Tastes like it's doing something. And how's your back? Did these guys do anything or are they worthless?

What's the verdict? Well, we'll see. I guess verdict's still out. No, no, it's been like, what, half an hour, 20 minutes? I know, I'm curious. You should know by now. My left glute is already twitching, which I expected to happen. And Seema and I have had that happen to you as well. Yeah.

And that for you. Thank you very much. So like I was explaining to them is like, I can't really feel my glutes, but Mark and Seema feel them all the time. Sure. But they get mad at me when I can't activate them. Within, I don't know, a couple seconds, you guys had my glutes, but Mark and Encima feel them all the time. Sure. But they get mad at me when I can't activate them within, I don't know, a couple seconds. You guys had my glutes firing pretty good. Wow. And that was kind of amazing. Yeah. Cause like I've tried many things and, you know, outside of biomechanics, I haven't really been able to get anything to really activate them.

But once I, you know, can figure out how to turn them on, it seems like they, they're my back takes over and it doesn't want that to happen anymore. And it does whatever the heck it takes to turn them off. And so, I mean, you guys can explain everything that was going on, but like my glutes and my groin. Wow. There's a lot of stuff going on in there that has, I was touched in places I've never been touched before.

Put it that way. We got that holy hip trifecta, hamstrings, adductors, and glutes all today, bro. What was that, brown thumb technology you're talking about? Yes, please explain that because that shit sounds real scammy. And how do I get to disagree? I'm real just rapey. I don't disagree. I'm being real.

Can I get certified in brown thumbing or do I have to go to school? Imagine getting an image of somebody's face when they're hearing. They've got their face down on the chiropractic table. And then like, oh, have you ever heard of the brown thumb? You're like, what in the hell is going on back there? There are consent forms for this. There are. Yeah.

No, tell them. I mean, there's a school. It's called Logan Chiropractic College. Where is Logan? Do you remember? St. Louis? St. Louis. Or Kansas City?

It's still a school. There are people there now. It's a place of education and they do coccyx internal coccyx adjustments so the bottom of your sacrum ends in the coccyx which can be accessed internally through the sphincter you don't have to make it weird you just stick your thumb in there i apologize i apologize i'm sorry normalize the brown thumb you know wait so, please do explain this. So a doctor will stick whatever they use.

They'll stick their thumb. And how do they massage? Like what do they do? Is it based towards the, you know, like what goes on? So, I mean, they believe, and I'll say it that way, that the alignment of your spine is based off of your sacrum. So the spine ends in the sacrum. It's an upside-down triangle. And the tip of that can be accessed through the sphincter.

And so if they can manipulate that, they'll assess and they'll say there's a torsion to the left, to the right. We've got no choice. And if they can get in there and manipulate it back into place, we can align you properly. I guarantee that like 98% of these doctors are men and 95% of their clients are women. I just picture them snapping the glove on. Let's go. I'm all excited. I want to give them a little street cred.

Here we go. If you fall and you maybe displace that end of your tailbone, the coccyx, there's really only one way to move it. You don't want to go through like massive internal surgery to move this bone. So if you have somebody who's willing and maybe skilled. A super friend. A super, a very, very super friend. I mean, you can see these on imaging like x-rays. You'll see that it's just completely twisted because they maybe fell hard on a snowboard accident or something yeah there's there's not always a lot of ways to move

that guy back now i i didn't go into that club in school that fixed the the coccyx bone club but i'm glad somebody does it anybody from the land in school i do apologize because we're just making jokes like what you do is respected and we thank you for it and we're gross and we're just gross children at least we are you two are professionals that's true i appreciate you saying that it's not true but logan chiropractic is a place and i'm sure it's a wonderful institution with some wonderful people but that's what it is brown thumb yeah it would would that be uh i've heard of um bowen therapy is that the same thing or is that something totally different no that's like that's like breathing really okay so i'll have to look it up maybe i'm getting them wrong no because i so i had seen somebody then they said there was like i thought it was called bone

therapy you could be right and maybe i'm wrong so well here's the thing and here's where i was like this is bullshit because uh he worked on my wife and was just like oh did you have you know a lower back accident or something where like something with your coccyx like was hurt or whatever you come in you're like hold up yeah but excuse me i know right because then he's like i'm gonna get in there but um and so during her first pregnancy she broke her tailbone he's like that's what it is but then when he saw me for a totally different thing he's just like hmm you have a lower coccyx injury don't you and i'm like i don't think so he's like are you sure i'm like i'm pretty sure but he said the exact same thing for a

different fucking thing are you sure you don't yeah as the jedi man i don't know if i do do you need a check this is so weird i'm remembering all this right now but he didn't put on a glove he put like it was like a dental dam he just covered my like lower like back slash upper butt cheeks and then he got his finger like in my crack i can't believe i just remembered all this right now so wow so you literally you pinned that away as you were traumatized repressed and then when you leave the office he's like how's your back you're like what he's like my job here is done he wakes up he's like do you need a cigarette as he's smoking but yeah my bad but yeah sorry just remembered that all right now yeah you can do some stuff through the prostate too right like who do we have on the show who's

like laying down the bathroom floor with something up? Ben Greenfield. Ben Greenfield, there you go. He would. Like there could be some tension relief in there maybe. I don't know, right? Milking the prostate, that's a thing, right? I mean, Tom Segura and his butt plugs.

I mean, yeah, it's not uncommon. There might be something to it or not really? There's definitely something to it. I don't have an adequate explanation bobby yeah i mean i don't have any personal experiential evidence here so i will bow no judge me i will butt plug in right now and we feel great what's amazing is like we all control each other's like vibrations and stuff yeah we have the remote in our pocket but we don't know till after the show who we have so it's a fun game i think i have andrews i'm not sure we'll see but before okay learning super friends we're gonna get everybody by the way no we didn't lose them they're still

here and we're gonna get into some really good stuff but uh not to joke and this is no jokes like i uh me and my girl we got some butt plugs i haven't used it yet but i plan to because there's some spots up there you know ain't nothing about it. So all you gentlemen in the audience that are like, oh, this is gay butt plugs, give a shot. Maybe. You might just learn some different levels of pleasure that you never knew before. Like I'm about to. I think I'm going to like it.

Doesn't mean you like a dick in the butt. It just means that you like a little something, you know, tickling around. It may also. It may also mean that. Maybe real. Maybe real. I'm being real though anyway let's get to the topic at hand let's stop the immaturity what are we talking about i don't remember brown thumbs brown thumbs there you go but yeah it started with like the glute activation that you guys are fixing up uh andrew's back how'd you guys how'd you guys meet how'd you guys get together in the first place? John and I,

we had the same employers. We were both working together in Texas. And yeah, I moved down there. I'm not from there, but that's where I met him. And I moved away and went to Europe for a few years. And a couple years after I was gone, we just always had conversations. We just never

stopped talking clinically, whether it was texting or calls. And one day it was just like, why don't we record some of this? We don't know who it's going to be for, maybe just some friends or some other colleagues. But yeah, it all started from that, us working together,

but we were just colleagues working at the same location in the beginning. Helping people with like physical therapy type stuff. Is that the education background for both of you? We're both chiropractors um mostly manual therapy and rehab so i mean it looks a lot more like physical therapy honestly uh but we just combine a bunch of different techniques together um and there's a lot of people who specialize in one thing it's hard to put me in a box i don't i have a problem with authority and uh systems And so like, I like it all. We, so we bring things together, but then we talk about hard cases. So we'd be like,

we just need to record this. We need to give this because then we tell other people, they're like, what were you guys talking about? And we're like, well, maybe we should put this down and give this to somebody else. So yeah. And it went from there. So actually I want to ask you guys about this because when people think of chiropractors and they've been paying a lot of attention to a lot of different types of content, most people, not most people, but a lot of people are starting to believe that chiropractors in the classical sense are bullshit. The individual that you go into and they're like, let me snap your shit up for you. You hear some knocks here and then you're like, oh, I feel better. What are your opinions on that?

Do you believe that does things? And that's not necessarily all you do, correct? For sure. Yeah. You want to go on that one? Yeah. I mean, I've used this analogy many times with John. Like I've always said, I felt like I'm selling furniture in an Apple store.

Like as, because I have chiropractor as a label on myself and people have expectations when they come in the room, exactly what I'm going to do. So it's like they come in to an Apple store and I'm trying to say, well, you already got a decent iPhone. It's not really your problem. You don't have anywhere to sit. Like you need some, you need a bed to lay on. And they're like, well, that's great.

I just, I just want the iPhone. Can you just give me the iPhone? And this is the equivalent to like, I can see you need to rehab this or you need some load in these tissues or whatever. And I said, yeah, but can you just crack me? Like that's at the end. You know, that's, that's the kind of expectation that you get with chiropractic and that's all fine but that's um like when i lived in europe it was pretty much like you know like there's no there's 80 000 last i checked like 80 000 chiropractors in the united states and they're very variable

some are very high volume they only adjust and other times they're they don't adjust at all and they're all into rehab but in like where i was living they're all pretty much the same it's they're just the typical chiropractor that you think of so that it really felt like like i said selling furniture in an apple store so i feel like every patient i had to sell them and they're like why is this different than physio physiotherapy why is this different than physical therapy and so that that is you is a tough position to be in sometimes where you always have to feel like you have to sell from that position. But chiropractic in the United States is quite vast. So when people say, it's like when I lived in Europe and people say, I didn't like the United States. I say, where did you go? Oh, New York City. That just means you didn't like New York City.

So chiropractic's the same way because there's so many of them there. You just, you know, if you don't like one, just maybe don't go find the same office of another chiropractor with some franchise. Try something different. And those guys can be, or girls, can be totally different.

Yeah. I'll bring it back to Andrew. So we were like, one of the problems with his back, and he has many problems, is an instability. So most chiropractors are snapping necks and cashing checks. God bless. It's fine. It's one way of treatment. But if you're going to adjust somebody with an instability, you're going to make that instability worse. And so we learned how to evaluate. The first two years of chiropractic school are exactly like medical

school where they go off and learn pharmacology and toxicology we'd go more into orthopedics and biomechanics and rehab we go the other way um so like going through evaluations and learning these adjustments when you you're like this guy's immobile why would i make him more mobile why would i go that way where he he needs more stability, more hip movement. And it just becomes more specific. You just, as a professional, you get better and you get more specific at what you do. So you just can help people better.

And so the traditional chiropractic route of manipulating and getting people more loose and mobile, which is very important. But people with an instability don't need more stretching. It makes them worse. So yeah, so you kind of learn that early in your career, or you don't learn that in your early in your career. You hurt people.

Or you find that out and you're like, maybe I should fix something in myself. Maybe there's something else to this profession. It's just a doctor of the outside of the body, a doctor of your meat suit and doctor of your movement. But yeah. You know, I think people like Ben Patrick, the knees over toes guy, I think one of the things that he's done really well and same with kelly's tourette is they've

shown people hey you know what it's okay to move and it's okay to experiment okay i heard what you said your knee hurts but uh can we train your calves can we train your shin can we train around the knee um can we see if you can get into a lunge type position? Can we, and if he can't, then he has regressions, right? He's got all these different movements and Tourette, same thing would say, Hey, maybe, you know, maybe your knee is locked up and you might want to roll on this foam roller. Maybe you want a super friend to mash on particular areas to help free up that area. And I really just like the idea of let's put the title of doctor kind of into the average person's hands for just a little bit

because when someone comes to see you guys and they have a sprained ankle or they have certain conditions, you guys are going to do an evaluation of them, but it's an evaluation of them that they never really thought of for themselves. And I think you certainly could, even without the vast knowledge that you guys have. You can probably say, oh, I wonder – my ankle got twisted pretty bad. I wonder how it is being on one foot. I wonder when I push off on that calf how it feels. And you can experiment a little bit.

So I literally like the idea of like let's have people kind of play with and examine themselves a little bit. And maybe when people go to you guys, it doesn't have to always end up being this like last resort thing. And then you guys are expected to like fix something. It could be like, hey, I actually looked at this myself and I tried a bunch of stuff and it didn't seem to work really well. So now I'm here because I want to get more stability that area more mobility that area yeah that happens a lot because people are self-researching like crazy i mean that's what is happening on the other side of these microphones right now i think like people are hungry and want to learn and there's a lot of information out there so especially when people come in these days they're way more educated than you know they even 10 years ago when

we first started treating uh people know who kelly starrett is and people come in and already know who ben patrick is and so as a doctor you also need to know that um and then be able to work within that frame and move them where they need to go basically basically. Because they might have a misunderstanding also, right? And I think a good clinician, their job is to make people aware of their situation. Like you know this because you've trained in SEMA, like you've trained lots of athletes, and you know the one where you're trying to show them something quite remedial, right?

Like, I don't know, Bulgarian split squat. And it just looks awful. And you're like, no, no, just put your foot here. And it just seems like they can't do it, right? But a good coach is somebody who can bring awareness to the client, to the athlete, or to the patient, right? So when we can say, can we get Andrew to feel this? Once he feels it, this is the money spot. Otherwise, he's just doing what we tell him.

We get no feedback of what he feels, and he doesn't even understand what's happening. Just like if you just tell the person, oh, they did a bad squat, or your squat looks good, they don't know why, and they can't feel it. So a good coach, a good clinician, gives awareness to the person so that they know what to look for, what to feel,

how to know that they're improving, et cetera. And not everybody is the same. I can show in SEMA and he's starting to pick up on the stuff right away and somebody else who doesn't have any of that experience, it's a very difficult task. Andrew did good. He did well. He did a good job.

He did well. Well, thank you. Well, I wanted to ask this because there's a bunch of things we're curious about. But for an individual who's like sitting most of the time, let's say that they come into the bunch of issues. One of the things that we try to figure out are like big lifestyle habits that can make some of the biggest changes. Because we know that like if you're not, if you never walk, right, there's going to be a lot of dysfunctions that happen there. If you sit in an office desk and then you get up and you go sit at home, there's going to be a bunch of problems that happen there. So if you can simply get up and start moving, you'll probably get out of certain issues. But what are certain things that a majority of people listening can be doing each day that can put them ahead so that when they, if something does happen, right? Well, you're already walking, you're not sitting around, et cetera. Like what are just the things that they can start doing that are simple right now? something does happen right well you're already walking you're not sitting around etc like what

are just the things that they can start doing that are simple right now yeah i mean this is a million dollar question right yeah but i mean the the biology term for this sometimes is called evolutionary mismatch where we the mismatch is what we are kind of evolved or designed based on your belief system to do compared to what we typically do every day that mismatch and that breadth of the gap tends to be commensurate with the level of issues that a person is exposed to right so yeah like sitting 10 hours a day in a nice sofa and and looking at a an lcd screen from backrest with myopia which is like you know it's three inches from your face and you never look far anymore and you're wondering why

your your far vision is going away right and you're wondering why your hips don't move and your back is starting to hurt and you can't rotate it and a golf kind of hurts when you swing it's like it's because you have a mismatch from what your body has kind of been doing for thousands of years and what we do now. And that's why there's a whole group of people like Move Nat and we could keep going and listing these people that believe like, let's just move how we were supposed to move. That's easy to say. It's hard in practice though, at least in my experience.

You can't just tell somebody, hey, you need to appreciate bare feet and walking on rocks and you also need to appreciate meditation and there's like 90 things that we can give them the taste of liver appreciate the taste of liver steak shake is good like there's tough things that steak shake is delicious dude it is so good yeah and if you don't like all that stuff you don't notice that it's in there i do happen to like organs and stuff but i couldn't taste it in there bobby's weird but the i mean the answer to your question is the answer is you're going to need to do something that you will continue to do so okay so you got 10 000 steps today will you continue to do it can you so a lot of people have ideas of jumping into barefoot shoes which is fantastic sometimes they

jump off of a cliff and their feet are just wrecked and so they'll get barefoot shoes, which is fantastic. Sometimes they jump off of a cliff and their feet are just wrecked. And so they'll get barefoot shoes. I love Vivo barefoot, right? Wonderful stuff. What's the discount code? PowerProject saved 20% off. Oh, interesting. But sometimes they jump off a cliff and get those beautiful Vivo shoes for 20% off. And then their feet are wrecked and they never do it again. They're like, Vivo shoes are trash. Barefoot stuff is garbage. It's useless.

And so you need to give an appropriate thing where they're going to do it a lot. Like, honestly, when you guys were doing your 10,000 steps challenge, like, that's it. Start there. Drink water. Like, I think most people know what they need to do, to be totally honest with you.

I think you know you need to eat like an adult. I think you know you need to get off the couch. I think you know you need to spend less time on your phone. I think you need to wind down before bed. And, you know, I think people know these things. Like, the information's out there. I think it, I don't know, maybe it's more of an internal motivation. Like, we were talking about this as well.

Like, what makes people change? and i wanted to ask you i wanted to like in your experience like getting through to people that are hard to get through to like what have you found that that that helps and do you fail most of the time how does it look uh i'm just trying to manage myself you know trying to get myself to make changes and And that's difficult in and of itself. Like that's a big hurdle to figure out. Unfortunately, I think most of these things, they start off in a direction that like doesn't always make sense to somebody. So if somebody is like, man, I'm really having a hard time with my diet, then I usually want to talk to them about like their sleep and some of their other habits.

And they're like, no, I have a problem with the food. But you have a problem with the food because you're tired, you're fatigued. You're not getting your phone out of your room. You know, it's all this stuff that sounds foofy and sounds kind of stupid. And you're like, fuck that. I got plenty of friends that are in great shape and they have, and they are on their phones all night and they don't sleep. But the hard thing is, is thing is that's not you.

And so it's very difficult to truly understand, say, you know what? You're right. I'm glad you pointed that out to me. I need to do this. And I think maybe eventually you stumble upon it yourself and you're at work or something one day and you're just overwhelmingly tired and you're like it's in my best interest to make the change my friends were right this podcast i listened to that was correct and so i think it takes you know when when you get advertised to

like it's i don't know seven times or something that you're supposed to hear something um within one advertisement and then you're supposed to hear the thing three times after that. So that's over 20 times. So maybe you need to be presented this information over and over and over again. I don't know if you guys found that to happen with yourselves, but that's happened for me. Um, you just kind of keep,

you're like, keep hearing that, man, I keep hearing about kettlebells and, and I, and you use them for a little while and then you're like, these suck. I kind of threw out my back with it or whatever happened. And then you use them again for a little while and then you're like, these suck. I kind of threw out my back with it or whatever happened.

And then you use them again for a little bit and then you dismiss them and then somebody else says it again and you're like, fuck that, man. I really do need to actually do that. So it just takes a really long time. I think it's a very hard part of it. Have you ever heard of the phrase sympathetic magic?

No. I have not. Okay, so sympathetic magic basically means you copy somebody until you can do it yourself. So like, I just see and seem a rolling, uh, and, and basically you try to mimic them. Like, I mean, when we were kids, I was like, I want to play basketball like Michael Jordan, you know, like, and if I watch enough of him, I can learn how to square up my shoulders and say goodbye to the ball. I'm never going to be Jordan, but to an extent of him, I can learn how to square up my shoulders and say goodbye to the ball.

I'm never going to be Jordan, but to an extent, copying somebody. I think until you see somebody out there that you're like, I want to look like Mark. I want to move like Encima. I want to be able to sleep like John. Whatever it is, I think that you can start copying people. You know what I mean? And I think until they see a model worth copying, and then it turns it back on you

because you have to be that model. You are making an impression on people. And if your impression is dog shit, if you are not holding yourself up to your own standards, then why would people get into your barefoot shoes? Why would they swing a kettlebell? You know what I mean? So I think if you can provide that example for somebody

and they're just like, you have to make that thing attractive enough so that they want to do it. I think as a doctor, as a chiropractor, because there's plenty of doctors and chiropractors out there who are slobs. Some of them are my friends. A lot of them, unfortunately.

No, they're good people. But I mean, you can't tell someone to do 10 000 steps if you are not doing 10 000 steps you can't some tell someone to go sit in a sauna if you don't sit in a sauna and i think once you have that experience in yourself and you can relate that to someone else and they go i feel like that might benefit me like i can relate to that person that sympathetic magic starts to transfer. That's what they say. And then you're like, okay, I can do it.

Let's sit in a sauna. Let's drink water. Let's go for 10,000 steps. I think you get that when you continually try to push a lot of options forward. More recently, I copied something that I saw Jason Klepa do with Kettlebell. And I'm like, I'm just going to do that for a couple of weeks. And I'm on like week three of it. And I just try to do it like just a handful of times a week, and it's something that's fun and easy to do.

But why not mimic Jason Kalipa? Like he looks great. He's a savage in every sense of the word. And so why not kind of mimic some of what he's doing? And so why not kind of mimic some of what he's doing? But in some of the messages that we have with some stuff like fasting and stuff like that, I think sometimes they'll see the shape that he's in or the shape that I got myself into. And they'll say, these guys don't have the same problems that I have.

But if you've ever seen this guy eat, I mean, it's got to be a burden to walk around with that amount of hunger in your body. But does he put it away? I don't know how he eats. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He could eat a lot. And for myself, too, I'm always hungry. I feel like there's

constant temptations around all the time with different snacks and different food. And I don't think maybe people don't understand the internal battle I have all day, every day

with how much I actually love food. And I don't really have a lot of other things that I feel I'm doing that are super negative to myself. Like And I don't really have a lot of other things that I feel I'm doing that are super negative to myself. Like I don't really love drinking. I don't necessarily like love drugs and stuff like that.

So it's like this is like the one thing that I really enjoy. I love it. And I want to like eat. Some good food out there. Yeah, I want to eat all the yummy stuff that we always talk about and get sidetracked with on this show. But fasting, which sounds counterintuitive, has been really helpful because it's just taught me to be more patient. You're not going to die. If you don't eat that food right now, you're going

to be fine. And I've done like five-day fast and done a bunch of different things just to try to explore that. So I think whatever the thing is that someone's dealing with, if they can kind of think almost, maybe not all the way the opposite on everything, but if you can kind of think the opposite or think of what your life could look like, if you built up a tolerance towards that thing, that's always kind of bugging you, then you can build up some resilience towards that. And you should be able to kind of fight through it every day to the point where it's no longer a fight. It's just like, I don't eat until two o'clock. Right, right, right. Does change happen without trauma? Because I feel like, Bobby, you were talking about, what was that study you were talking about or the Harvard guy?

Change happens without trauma, I think, are uh that have experience prior yeah with probably a trauma so based off of previous history like i don't want to fucking go through that again right and then so you can you can figure it out from like a controlled trauma like out there in the gym you put a couple racks on your back that's trauma to your body in a controlled sense like self-inflicted yeah yeah if you don't do it yourself it's going to happen to you nonetheless but sorry what was the i think i think i could get this wrong but i think this was tim bill you the you know one of the guys that tom bill you sorry that that helped start quest and everything i think he was interviewing somebody who was like uh one of the

most renowned psychologists from harvard and Or he was at least witnessing this conversation where they asked, hey, can people change? And this is the guy that's been studying change his whole career. And the guy said, after the age of 25, not really. And then so Tom goes, what are you telling me everything I do is a waste of time? Should I just shut down impact theory? Is it all over?

Or what you guys do? And he said, unless there's trauma and and i kind of agree with that i was in a sense because i think about all the people who man they tried to lose weight they tried to lose weight and then boom something happened and they lost 80 and i the first thing i want to talk to them about has nothing to do with how they lost their weight. I want to look them in the eyes and say, what happened to you? What changed in your life that made it work this time?

And they almost always have a story. Like I got divorced. My mom died. You could say who hurt you to anybody and they'll just start crying. How'd you know? How'd you know? They'll say that too. But it yeah. How'd you know? How'd you know? That's right. Everybody. They'll say that too.

But it's the impetus sometimes for change. And I thought, well, that is kind of depressing that we have to go through trauma. So I thought, but I do think there's some hope for people that don't go through trauma, but they have to have some self-awareness. This is like the self-inflicted trauma, whether it's just moving to a new location. You never left your town that you're from or going to swim and you're deathly afraid of water. I'm glad you cleared that up. Doing hard things.

I'm glad you cleared that up because I think in each person's head, they're thinking of trauma being a different way. Maybe one person is thinking of a breakup. Another person is thinking of finding out a family member has a disease or having someone die. It doesn't always have to be those things. It could be just that you got yourself uncomfortable with a new situation i think a sauna could be trauma honestly like i mean there are grades like heat exposure get better be more tolerant to stress and strain yeah yeah but you just it's also just self-awareness you know this how how big is meditation in like like the online space in the last 10 years? You know, how much is people, they're telling you, CEOs and business owners, like, you need to meditate.

Everybody told me to meditate for the last 10 years. And it's like, well, what do they get from meditation? I don't want to meditate. What do you get from it? It's like, well, you might just finally stop scrolling or stop thinking whatever just pops into your consciousness at any moment and reflect for a second and that can just maybe be enough to be a micro trauma for you to say i should i should actually probably go to the gym we were talking more recently about um being hyper focused on self-improvement and personal development and how that rabbit hole can be

something that like you're, you know, you're so overly obsessed with it that you're almost paralyzed because you're kind of thinking of all these different things that you should be doing all the time. And then you get like a little bit of anxiety over like, oh, I was supposed to do those kettlebell swings. And I got the go to movements and I got the movements that I learned from Encima and I got the movements that I learned from these guys and that guy. And it's just like after a while, it can be kind of overwhelming.

There's this – John Vervaeke is a cognitive science, University of Toronto, tenured guy, brilliant professor, was talking about what the definition of intelligence is. And he says it's a general problem solver. And if you become too specific of a problem solver, you become blind to a lot of things. And so self-improvement, I mean, I love that train. Please self-improve. But like, if you neglect your wife, your daughter, you know, like your job, like, so it becomes a general problem solver. And there are times I think you do need to focus absolutely on specific things, but the more intelligent people are actually more general problem solvers. And I was like, ah, it's absolutely true with in line with what you're saying. That kind of sounds like kind of what you guys were mentioning at the very

beginning, like you and your hate of authority and not doing one thing. It seems that you guys got into being chiropractors, but what was it that caused you guys to practice and try all these different things within the field? Because, I mean, that's an amazing approach. You're not just going with what this one person says and what this one person does. You learn from all of these systems and you bring it into whatever the hell it is that you guys have now been able to create. When I get questions from students or chiropractic students, especially, or PT students or something, and and they ask for advice I always say choose your mentor very wisely because it's most likely going to dictate the way that you treat in the future so for example my first internship I got really lucky and worked

with a guy that pretty much only worked with the Minnesota Vikings and the Minnesota Wild and and other NFL teams that was my first. And he basically did nothing like traditional chiropractic. It was two-hour visits, three hours sometimes. With one person or with like – With one person. Wow. Did you meet Randy Moss? I cannot confirm or deny.

We have patient health information. HIPAA violations it's called. The board is always listening. I couldn't stop him on Madden so I hate those guys. Little kids used to beat my ass on online Madden games. This is Randy Moss. Throwing bombs at Randy Moss. I love Randy Moss.

There's always that one character that just or this one play. I always thought if I saw him I was going to punch him in the face but then I realized how big and athletic Randy Moss is and that he would kill me. Mash you up. It's like, oh, shit, he's 6'4". Never mind.

Very fast. NFL athlete. But yeah, no. Sorry, that sets you on the path because, I mean, that was the first time it opened up my eyes. Like, wait a minute. This is what the school tells you is just to pass your tests and to be, to be quite frank,, not extreme danger to society. Their job is to make sure you don't hurt people and you'll most likely help them. But then it's really on you. I mean, your education just starts when you leave the schooling and then you start exploring.

And ignorance is bliss. Some people just never learn another thing from the day they graduate and they feel like they are the genius in their field and that's fine but it's it's the dunning-kruger thing right the more you start studying it's like oh my i don't know anything i don't i don't know anything yeah in your guys's practice because we were just talking about traumas and stuff do you guys explore like the mental side of things because like you know we were talking off air about like john sarno's book that i'm getting into. So I'm curious about that. I'm curious, does it ever get brought up, like, in school, like, at all as far as, like, the mental side of things that could be, like, harboring some of the chronic pain? And I've never read it, but also there's that book, The Body Keeps Square, that JL told you and me about.

I haven't read it. I need to, but do you guys know about that? How, yeah, how applicable do you think this stuff is? It's very applicable applicable but not taught so like bobby said i mean they're basically making sure that we cover in school is making sure there's no red flags there's no yellow flags we're not you know really hurting people because people's bodies can be hurt and so school is mostly like is this an orthopedic issue that you need imaging for or a higher level intervention?

And chiropractors, our interventions are lower level than surgeries, thank God. But people need them. But no, it's not covered. And I think mental health and awareness has become a lot bigger these days. My boss, Jay Glazer, has a huge book. Every day he posts about his mental health. And so I'm glad that that conversation, we were talking about things that come around, like barefoot shoes are back again from 2012.

One of the conversations that's up now, thank God, is mental health and awareness. But it's not taught. I think it also becomes down to the mental health and addressing it with a patient. Just kind of comes down to your personal skills with somebody. Like people come to us all day in pain and you doctors want to inflict a treatment immediately on this person. And sometimes you got to look the person in the eye and each treatment has to be different. You have to apply it to the same person. And so just having enough awareness to like take a moment and listen to a person is not really taught to answer your question but wildly valuable there's one other component to

that i agree with that but also would be that our field or professionals are terrible at one thing which is to say i don't know the answer to this problem i'm going to send you to this person who's really good at that thing. So if somebody came in to me and I could tell, I've had these patients, I can tell it's obviously an emotional thing or there's some kind of trauma in their life. They do not seem normal to me.

And we have these things called malingering tests, which are tests that are designed to basically say, this means nothing, but they're acting like it does mean something. So we kind of know this is probably and and there's other ways to tell besides just doing those tests just just being aware and being in being in contact with the being connected to the person in front of you and so like in my case i would send them elsewhere i would just send them to somebody i know who's

very good at that me personally so i might delve into it if it's very small it may like you you're a perfect example i would not refer you away because i feel like you're not like a basket case you're trying you might have some mental component but it's still within the realm of what i would consider normal recovery of a chronic issue that you've been dealing with yeah there's something i do want to ask though about the john sarnos thing and this is this isn't coming from a place of like i think it's bullshit it's more so a devil's advocate type of thing, because I've looked up some forms of people that talk about that book and they echoed the same exact thing I heard Andrew say. It's like, wow, it's like he knew how I grew up or it's like he knew what

happened in my past relationships. Because Andrew, correct me if I go wrong anywhere, past relationships, because Andrew, correct me if I go wrong anywhere, there's an aspect of like, you know, um, you lose, like you, you don't have a strong of a relationship with your wife because you have a child and then you hold it and you hold certain pain in certain places. And then it ends up stemming in your lower back and other places. But I literally was reading comment after comment of people saying, Oh, it's like he knew my life. But it's like, if you take a very general idea of how most people live and then you stamp it on this and then you're like well you probably had this this and this a few things are going to stick and it makes me wonder

how much of it is legitimate and how much of it is actually woo woo yeah i'm curious there is so i 100 agree with you you say 10 things you know 100 people are going to be like, oh my God, that's me. But what I was telling in Seymour, I'm like, dude, this chapter that I'm reading, I swear John went to the leaving their job, uh, has a hard time feeling like they've done enough. And what Mark told you guys, when I got in today, it was like, I had to force him to take a vacation. And so I'm like, Oh fuck, he's talking directly to me about me, you know? So there's things like that. And Oh yeah. And then the baby thing, you know, a new father, although, you know, I have a stepdaughter, but like the thing was, it's like, Oh, a brand new father develops back pain after the baby comes because they're no longer the center of attention. They're no longer getting the love and affection from their wife because they're, again, they're kind of on the back burner now. Um, which was, it was just like, was convenient, but like I already had the back pain before my son,

but yeah, what Nseema was saying is true. You see a lot of people talk about like, holy shit, that's exactly, he's describing me. And for me, he was. It literally was me. I think it's also a little bit easy to pinpoint a person down if you're using a lot of positive. Think about if that framework was negative, you'd be like, that ain't me. Yeah. You know what I mean? So if I'm like, you're a savage. You like to do everything 100%. And you'd be like that ain't me yeah you know what i mean so if i'm like you're a savage you like to do everything 100 percent and

and you'd be like yeah yeah that's me no yeah yeah if it was written uh somebody who um likes to be away from their family or would rather be at work than at home that's not me yeah you're right positive lingo makes it a little easier to identify with i think sometimes isn't this like the psychic tarot card kind of strategy right yeah like i think you have an affinity or respect for people of of color black people how did you know what like right you look like you do enjoy weight well you're this guy knows his shit but okay so i'm not i don't think you've seen i want to say this i don't think the john s do you see in the theater? I want to say this. I don't think the John Sarno's thing is BS,

but when I see some of those things and then I'm reading about it, I'm seeing how people respond. I'm like, what is legitimate? And you're curious, what part of this is legitimate and what part of this is bullshit? None of it might be bullshit, but what are you guys' thoughts on that?

I think that a lot of times we live in a very scientific age. And if there's not research for it then is it real okay there's a thing back to this cognitive science i'm just stealing all of this stuff there's a thing called participatory knowing yeah so like you can say that you can catch a ball and i go okay cool but if i throw you a ball and you catch it i'm like okay i can see that you can catch a ball so if things relate in that sense experientially then i think it resonates a little bit more deeply but we're very skeptic skeptical people if there's not science behind it are there three research studies that back it up otherwise i'm not touching that stuff and look i'm a doctor like we go by orthopedic

tests and the research is great but you can't be controlled by that. Does that make sense? Absolutely. So when something touches you on a deeper level, like the brown thumb we're talking about, but when it resonates with someone on that level, they want to, I think a lot of people's instinct is to dismiss that

because it's not scientifically backed up. And so that becomes woo-woo. But there are experiences and patterns in life that are just obvious it's pattern recognition it's really all there is it's larger scale pattern recognition yeah and i've spent my entire life up until like maybe even a year or so ago being that person that's like well where's the studies where's the proof yeah instead of googling the success stories i'm going to google the people that have not had success and talk shit the most and listen to them more than anything. And then just recently a switch turned and I'm just like, you know, I'm going to believe everything and make sure like and just try it.

Right. I'm going to try it. Works, doesn't work. I'll find out, but I'm not going to talk shit about it. And guess what? Like my back's never felt better, you know, like just by believing in this sort of thing. Yeah. You know, having that mental side kind of click on where like I told you guys, like if I bend down and I think it's going to hurt, my back's going to hurt, it's going to hurt.

If I prepare the way Stuart McGill teaches, it's probably going to hurt. If I just tell myself my back is strong and I'm not going to worry about it, I'll be fine. The hard part is going gonna be not telling my like having to tell myself that my back's strong it's gonna be fine just have just having it be strong and i have to ever fucking even acknowledge it that's where i want to be sympathetic magic yeah well the thing is humans are are just extremely complex and way more complex than especially professionals are willing to admit sometimes.

Even the specialists within our field, sometimes they do a good job of telling you this. Like neurology, you ask a neurologist how much we know about neurology and they basically say nothing. We don't know anything about it. But they can tell you 10,000 studies off the top of their head. Maybe they've even written books on the topic. But they're admitting that we don't really know these things. So it's hard to develop a very good research study on something as basic as a ward study for nutrition. Lane Norton talks about this, where it's really hard to get good studies done on even more simple topics, we're talking about pain and emotion.

And I mean, we're so complex that to try to study this is very, very difficult. And so you have to take it with a grain of salt. What you can study is do the tenocytes, the little cells within the tendon, replicate and grow? And do they become more if you do this exercise? That doesn't necessarily mean your pain will be gone or your performance will increase so you have to kind of take research and make it simple enough that you can actually do a study on it but it's it's not global enough to draw massive conclusions about things so what works for you you tell the next person hey just

tell yourself it's not going to hurt when you bend over just or just just do this 50 kilogram sorry 110 pound jefferson curl and it'll be fine and then they blow their back out and they're quadriplegic now yeah and uh yeah i mean so it's each person's different and that's also why it's extremely complicated i think this is nutrition too, right? Like I do extremely well on low carb. So early on, I tell everybody to do low carb. I don't do well on high fat. I just know anecdotally and experimentally, it's extremely high fat. It's not good for me. But another person can just eat salmon and lard and butter all day long and they just, they feel amazing and have no gastrointestinal issues. And this is the same with knee pain or hip pain it's not like hip pain is caused by x or his back pain is caused by y you know it's caused by a bunch of things that are

enumerated much past the end of the alphabet right it probably just wouldn't hurt at all to uh somebody that you're working with that's not maybe they're you know three four weeks down the road they don't feel like they're getting uh a lot some of the results that they're looking for i mean it would only make sense to have them investigate something else and maybe that something else would be to see a therapist from a mental perspective to help clear out any we've talked a little bit briefly uh on our walk that we went on about like clutter you know people just having like a lot of clutter in their life and how that could potentially be related to like some other things like i don't know if it is or isn't but from what i've seen when people improve their lifestyle and they when people

improve small aspects of their lifestyle over a period of time everything seems to improve so then they'll say the carnivore diet fixed my back because i know that because i had inflammation and like who the hell not the inflammation word it's like a weird one but you lost 30 pounds and that is probably you know a big reason but who knows what the real reason is why your back no longer hurts it's probably multifactorial absolutely yeah absolutely so uh when you guys were working on me um you were uh showing me or explaining to me like how tight my hips are and how tight my quads are and then as an example you showed the same

movements within sema totally different um but the one thing you guys told me it was like we can't compare you to somebody else but we can compare your left side to your right side. Why is that so important? That's you. I'll come in. Yeah, because, well, there's a lot of reasons because you are definitely just you. You're the only you. And for various reasons, your history, your hobbies, your things that you've done, but also your anthropometry, the shape of your hips, the direction of the socket

of your hips are different from the next person. Stuart McGill talks about this, you know, years and years ago. So you have that. So what you can compare it to from the next person. Stuart McGill talks about this years and years ago. So you have that. So what you can compare it to is the other side because most likely the deviation from side to side is not enough for us to notice. You know what I mean? We would need some great instruments

to kind of prove these differences. So when you see a hip on one side that rotates in beautifully and the other one can't, that's important because you you you're unless you have some weird orthopedic issue that is very rare you do not have two equal halves anymore or so to speak equal halves and you should you should have within a range of normality to be kind of equal side to side and so when you have one side very different than the other side we kind of know that you might have a lot of asymmetry side to side because your body has

to compensate to that new position right if we put like a hoka on one side and barefoot on the other it's not just the foot that's up compared to the other foot the whole system now adapts to that like one pelvis hikes up and then you have a small scoliosis in the spine. You have to tip your head back to the other side just so that you balance the floor out. So side to side tells you unbelievable amount and it tells the patient a lot. And we talk about this on our podcast about please have awareness. Like you don't have to know a name of a single muscle, a joint, nothing. If you lay on the floor, we did last month like a challenge. Just lay on the floor for at least 10 minutes a day. I don't care what you do down there.

It doesn't matter. Play, explore, do whatever. Reverse cowgirl. It's all fine. Hey, now. Speaking my language. Let's go. And what they'll do and gain awareness.

In other words, they'll go, oh, my right hip is real. I can't sit in this like 90-90 position with my right hip. But if I flip the other way, it's no problem. Okay, now you might need a professional to help guide you where to go from there. But the better awareness you have, you start to figure these things out. And I was talking to Mark earlier. I said I think professionals and chiropractors and PTs undervalue experiential uh experience and anecdotal like somebody like louis simmons or mark bell are you guys who just spent time in the trenches

doing things man sometimes you can have a bigger impact than the person that can recite all these research articles because because you you've seen it you felt it you go through your own problems yourself and that that count that is kind of invaluable yeah comparing side to side i mean is basic orthopedics i mean uh comparing side to side comparing above and below as well james syriac's the father of orthopedics says you need to check the joints above and below it's not crazy it's uh so i mean you're also this, there's a good amount of people who, you're built asymmetrically. Like the right side of your body has an extra lobe in the lung. And there's a liver that's a little bit heavier over there, right?

On the left side, you have your heart and you have a smaller lung. And then you have your intestines that go on. So, most of us are a little bit heavier on our right side, which predisposes us to a number of things. And these are things we have to take into account, right? And so that has a trickle-down effect, the same way that a hocus and a barefoot would have a trickle-down effect. When you take a big, deep breath, your torso fills up in a different way, and it predisposes you to certain twists. So if we only check the side that hurts, we're doing you a disservice, clinicians. You need to get an idea of the whole system.

And the idea of the whole system also goes back to the mental side of things as well. There are orthopedic baselines. So you have to take all that into consideration, I think. And John, I want to ask you this because we were talking about feet earlier. But when we were talking about that in the gym, you're mentioning how some people make too big of a step too soon because this is like the second time where barefoot shoes and barefoot activities have like come into like become popular and they were,

but a lot of people got themselves hurt. So can you talk to us about like kind of how people got themselves hurt and then how people can safely transition? Because number one, Vivos aren't the only shoe out there, right? There's a lot of other shoes that can be like ultras are pretty good and a lot of other shoes that might help people in different ways. Yeah. So. Yeah.

I mean, a lot of people's feet are incredibly weak. Yeah. And if you immediately expose them, it's the same thing with anything. You put a lot of weight on someone's back and they don't they were not familiar with it it's gonna be a problem so you can jump off the deep end and seriously like make your foot problem worse like a lot of like the back pain we were talking about with the instability a lot of people's feet have instabilities uh you guys were talking about like piano toes like moving your toes up and down,

like, and that connection, which most people can't do. Like if you're sitting at home right now, like try to lift up your big toe on the left, make it go, move the left pinky toe. Like a lot of times we just, I know you can do it. You can make it happen. It's not easy. It's not easy. And so there is this disconnect, which is a sign of weakness. And so if you have something that's weak and you go expose it to something like barefoot shoes, then you're going to expose that weakness and it's going to be worse. And this is where it goes back to your earlier question about how can people change and what do they need to do. I think long-term barefoot shoes are the answer, to be fully honest. Barefoot sprinter guy. I think barefoot itself

if you can is a great way a natural way we're talking about kind of primal evolutionary stuff that your foot should operate but on the way to there you need to be a little bit more specific so if you're if you have foot pain people ask me this all i have pain what should i do and i'm like i kind of evaluate. I'm not a professional. I can't just crystal ball it like Sarno all the time. You have to get evaluated. So there are shoes for overpronation, over supination. There's neutral shoes. Ultras are great shoes. But yeah, I think long-term barefoot's the answer. And you were also mentioning in the gym, something about certain individuals who have like bone on bone stuff in their feet and just

barefoot shoes aren't good for those people, correct? Correct. So what was that? So, I mean, that's the instabilities we're talking about. If those instabilities are there, this goes to the body. We were talking about how to create extension. If those bones are on bones and you don't have the ability to use the muscles in your toes, the intrinsic muscles of your feet aren't working, then you're just going to collapse further into that bone on bone problem. And it's going to make it worse. Yeah. So I do want to mention too, because we've been talking about a Vivo and I'm using Vibrams too right now, but I've been wearing Vivos for about a year now. And as I was making that

transition, I played soccer all my life, my life etc but I had certain times where my feet were in fucking pain like they hurt so I want people to understand just like Mark you're getting into running and it took you a while to get to where you are now but you had to make a gradual transition to be able to run 3-4 miles non-stop

this type of barefoot transition isn't just putting on a pair of vivos and going out running. Like you might have some pain sometime. You might have to go and wear some different, your normal shoes so that you can relieve your feet of some pain here and there, but it's not going to be something quick in the long run though. It could be, it's, I've found it to be extremely beneficial. Like I feel like a fucking kid because the connection now I can have to my feet and my toes and all that shit. It's's exciting but give yourself time in that transition and when you have these bumps in the road where

you're feeling pain or like if you start to feel pain in your knees because of something just understand that it is a gradual transition it's not going to happen in just a few months it could take a few years depending on where you started the the people don't have that kind of patience though i mean if you can be patient it's so much better on the other and if you're willing to be like you know six months from now one year from now what what sort of workout what sort of food diet well do you want to have for to be good feel good in a year you know if you have a wedding in six months i get it you have a quick thing you need to do but like what are you going to do for 10 years?

What's your 10-year plan? And ideally, it's barefoot. Extend that time horizon. Back to our family. How's it going now? We like to look good in the gym and out of the gym. That's why you always see Mark and I and Andrew is stepping up on the short, short game. Wearing shorts from Viore and clothes from Viore.

And honestly, the number one compliment that I've seen, that I've gotten, and even Mark's gotten is, damn, your butt looks good. And that's because, well, the clothes we wear make our booties look delicious. Andrew, how can they get it? Yeah, you guys both have pretty big wagons. You guys can head over to Viore.com slash Power Project. That's V-U-O-R-I dot com slash power project to receive 20% off the most

amazing apparel that looks so good inside and outside of the, it's going to make your ass look fat and your ass will look fat links to them down in the description as well as the podcast show notes. Uh, God damn it. That's a good one. Make your ass look fat. I know Russia is not very popular right now but we we often talk about the russian versus the bulgarian system of of olympic weightlifting now i know there's the

olympic weightlifters out there i know there's nuance to these programs i'm talking about the general concepts yeah we tell people to be more like the Russian style, this idea that from the age of five to almost like their profession, they're spending 90% of their reps in 60 to 75% of their one rep max. Do you know what I mean? Yes. They're just building reps. They're like laying the foundation. They're earning the right to do these things. And that's the same thing.

You have to earn the right to just throw on Vibram five fingers and go for a 10-mile run. You have to earn that right. As opposed to the Bulgarian system was this max out every day kind of thing. And then that works if you don't break, of course. But the idea was to be a little bit more like the Russians, this way of thinking like in the future, I'll be capable of great things. Because we know this. in the future, I'll be capable of great things. Because we know this.

People will Google Mark Bell's workout or Dmitry Klokov's workout or Milanochev's squat program. And what's the thing that we should say back? It's like, do what Milanochev did 25 years ago or do what Klokov did when he was mimicking his father when he was eight years old. That's where we need to start. And people have terrible feet, let's be honest.

My feet aren't perfect. Some of the people in this industry that know more about feet than me have terrible feet. And they're just trying, that's why they got so good at it is to try to fix their own feet. So I mean, these things take time. It is water on rocks, so to speak,

before we can smooth them out. And yeah, we have to, like the patience thing, I'm not good at it i'm somebody that's learned from trauma i had to hurt my back i've had to to pull a muscle i've had to kind of lose things i couldn't do before to where it kind of you know knocks you out of this and says hey like i don't want to keep going down this path you know and i want you guys to correct me if i'm wrong but maybe it's because i'm so fucking excited about the barefoot thing. But, you know, being an athlete for so long and me noticing personally how much of a change it's made for me athletically and the way I move and different slightly naggling pains here and there,

I can, I feel like if I see this much of a difference and I've been doing the athletic thing for so long, I think it could be a massive mover for just anybody who just gets control of their feet and makes that transition over time that a lot of things, you know, you change this one thing and a lot of things just follow suit. Am I wrong in that logic or what do you guys think about that? Go ahead. Well, I remember when we were on our walk and we were talking about how we get guilty about maybe putting some cream or honey in our coffee. Right, right.

And it's like that's somebody who's health conscious and we're still going, well, it's going to benefit us by maybe I just omit that sugar from my coffee. And Mark's kind of saying like, what about the people that have this all day long? This is all they do. Like what kind of benefits would they have if they pulled the sugar out? Do you see what I mean? It's this idea of like, of course, it would have this immense impact. But they might have a longer process to get where they want to go versus you. You'll get instant feedback a lot more.

Your athleticism, you're constantly been a mover your whole life. This has earned you rights that the non-mover or the older person much older than you has got to pay back to get those things? I think feet are a low-hanging fruit. I mean, absolutely. There are weak links in the body. There are patterns. Everybody is unique and specific, but I think the feet, it's a foundation. It's your first contact with the ground. And if there's some sort of twist or torque or instability there, that starts to manifest itself upwards, right? Yeah. And so I think it's a really low-hanging fruit that a lot of people can work on themselves.

We've been pretty abstract today. Let's be specific. Can you move your toes? Can you lift up just your big toe? Work on that. Can you get a lacrosse ball and put it on the bottom of your foot? Can you walk around barefoot for a little bit, right? cross ball and put it on the bottom of your foot can you walk around barefoot for a little bit right i think if you will notice measurable changes if you can do that with the minimum

amount of consistency in your life and if things hurt like if you put a cross ball under your foot and it hurts a lot that's probably a sign that your feet are not very strong and maybe not very resilient right absolutely and the same thing with like elbows and knees and stuff if you get down on all fours and that shit hurts a lot uh you might have some issues with your tendons ligaments and things of that nature right that's a that's where room to grow is we can go back to our hips over here right when we did that exercise we did an exercise where he was just activating his groin muscles and we put him in a specific position you could probably see that video on the youtube channel but i mean he we spaz it spasmed up pretty

intensely and the groin muscles, not what you do. What would you, what was your experience there? Well, yeah. I mean, again, laying down on my side and I've never tried to quote, activate my groin muscle that way. At least I don't know if like, if you activate it when you're like thrusting forward during intercourse, not sure if that's the same thing, but what I was doing was like pulling back. It was so weird because weird because um you had me do a couple different things but then you put my knee in a certain position and again i'm laying on my side and as soon as i lifted my knee up i could feel everything just like nope my body was like dude whatever you're doing you need to stop right now because we've never done this and i don't know what's going to happen i tensed up and it locked up i didn't lock up it just was about to cramp

very fast i mean we're talking within like seconds of moving my my knee a certain direction and so that and so that's when after that andrew wanting to get better over and over he was like what else can i do and i'm like you have to work on this for a while. The weakness that you experience, the cramping that you experience is a sign of weakness that you're talking about, Mark, that you can work on. And so like sit there, stay there, get better at that for a while. So if you experience weird pain in these interesting positions and look, there's a difference between, there's this famous track coach. He says, there's a difference between pain and pain pain. And I think we kind of know the difference between the two.

And so, yes, if you find those weak points, that's something to work on. Absolutely. Yeah, you find something that's just like ridiculously hurts, then that's probably not a great idea to push into that. Correct. But if it hurts a little bit and you can make progress there, you might be on to something. I think you said something in the gym earlier that i think was really useful i'm like how much pain is too much and you're like well if there's a regression like if over the course of the next couple days you're like oh like it's getting worse well then that's a pretty obvious thing

is to kind of go based i mean it'd be nice to just throw out number to somebody but it's kind of hard because everyone's uh value of pain or degree of pain is different. I think you – because I asked the question back to you, and you said three. And I think everybody's three is a different three. Right. But I think three is a healthy number. Again, pain or pain pain, that, yeah, absolutely. About a three.

If you can love – the orthopedic phrase is progressively worsening symptoms. That's when we – that's when flags go up as a doctor. Is it getting progressively worse? The same thing with running. You can kind of run. You can work out. You can sauna. And there can be discomfort.

But if it's not progressively worsening, I think you're okay. Do you guys think it would be a good idea just for us on this show maybe to put forward like get to a field or yard, your backyard, your front yard, wherever you got grass or a field of some sort maybe like once a week or once a month? Like fuck the gym for the day. Go out, get some sun and trounce around barefoot in a field. Maybe the first time you go, you're not even running. maybe like maybe maybe the first time you go you're not even running you're just doing squats and you're doing lunges you're doing push-ups and you're going back and forth between some exercises like that rather than just like always thinking gym gym gym i'm gonna lock myself up in some shoes i'm gonna lock myself up inside yeah i think that that might be a great place to start

i think a little bit a hundred percent play me and bobby were having a walk and we we were shooting bass we were playing basketball go play basketball one i did definitely me definitely bobby uh but yeah absolutely go try something new you don't have to you don't have to go 110 there's times to go crush it and break a sweat and push your heart rate but there's times to explore i think we were talking about this in the gym you showed me something really cool on the rack with uh with your deep squat exploring some movement right so go out into a field play catch i was talking to bobby about like man we have you know how satisfying it is to get a glove on and a baseball i played played with my brother-in-laws just this past Christmas.

It's so satisfying to play a game of catch. Maybe I'm a child, but like go play catch. It's fun. It's fun. It's so satisfying. It's so rewarding. Have you guys heard of pickleball? Oh, yeah.

I just heard about it this past weekend. But it's like I think it's like there's tennis, there's pickleballball and then there's ping pong and pickleball is right in the middle yeah but that's one of those things where it's like you don't got to be good but it's a fun thing to go move your body around and just fucking play get some different types of movement you're not even really thinking about working out no you're just you're just moving activity yeah i read some study a long time ago that's a just a correlative study that's so that said the people that lived the longest the activity that they did was it was by far racket sports and i just tried to kind of think why would that be and i feel like it's it's a variable movement you know the ball's going it's rare to see a fat guy with a tennis racket it's fun that image though popped

up yeah trying to to think about it. You're like, no, I don't think I can come up with any. I think you at 3.30 just be standing on the baseline. I can't get it. But yeah, you're outside. You're playing. There's joy. You're also playing with somebody usually.

It's movement. It's a lot of things. And I think also the neuro-enhancement aspect of movement is undervalued or sometimes underappreciated. How many times have you been told, well, I would like to work out, but I don't have the energy to work out. And then you're kind of like,

what you don't realize is if you started to move, you would have more energy, not less. And so last night, I mean, we do this for our jobs and for our hobbies and passions. And like last night, I mean, we do this for our jobs and for our like hobbies and passions. And even last night we're playing pickup basketball because we found a basketball and we're like, this feels good. Like we need to play more.

We need to do more sports as opposed to a rigid structure. I mean, I love the weight room. I love training. But, and those are, yeah, don't take those from your life. We know how important muscle mass is and everything like that. But it's like sometimes it's a reminder even to us within this field that we should just try things different or go play. I'm a scuba diver and like that gives me massive reward. Why am I not doing this all the time?

And then when are you the sharpest? Like when you just got done training, when you just got out of the water, when you just got done juggling the soccer ball for half an hour and you're like, I feel great. Your body's trying to tell you, hey, can you keep doing this stuff? I'm trying to give you these endorphins and these chemicals to tell you that this is a good thing. You bring up a really interesting point. There's almost no reflexes involved with lifting weights. There's a reflex aspect of seeing a ball bounce a particular way.

And it kind of reminds me of like a slip. You know, you slip on some ice or you slip on something. And sometimes, yeah, like that shit will hurt if you slipped pretty far. But a lot of times you'll slip and catch yourself or sneeze real hard or some loud noise will go crazy. And your body moves and reacts in a way where you were like, I didn't even know i could fucking move like that you know if we heard like gunshots in here right now you would

we would all like hopefully it would move pretty fucking fast you have a uh a very like knee jerk immediate reaction to it and you don't really get that when it comes to lifting weights so simply going out and throwing a football around, you'll explore all the different things that you guys learned about each and every muscle and tendon ligament moving around just from somebody just running a pattern. You said you played tight end, right? Just somebody running a pattern and catching a ball. You're going to get all those things. We're trying to defend the guy who's trying to catch the ball and it might be fun. Really fun. 100%. And if you can do all that with minimalistic shoes, that's probably,

that's where we started on this though. But yeah, I mean, barefoot and grass and just nature. I mean, one of the things coming back from Iceland where I lived for eight years was just being out in the sun. I honestly was a little sad.

I mean, I love Iceland with all my heart. It's one of the greatest places. Please visit. But I had my, my boy and he's 18 months now. And I just thought back to my childhood where I just had nothing on, a diaper on maybe, and I'm outside playing in the water hose, running through the sprinkler, just barefoot in the sun.

And I'm like, he's not going to have this. It's overcast most of the time, or it's 50-mile-an-hour winds. It's just the weather's not great. And there's a whole bunch of other benefits, or it's 50 mile an hour winds. Like, it's just, the weather's not great. And there's a whole bunch of other benefits, but I just kind of had the sadness. So there's a lot of things I'm looking forward to, nature-wise and movement-wise, that I can expose him to. And, you know, our family members are already saying, like, you need to cover up his feet. He needs shoes on. He's outside.

And I'm like, he does not. He's bleeding. I don't care. There we go. No shoes. He's not. I don't care. There we go. No shoes. He's not. I don't care if his toes are bleeding. Why do you guys think that if you were to, like, throw a ball to Andrew,

that he could catch it down low and not have any consequences? But meanwhile, if he went to pick something up, you know, he would maybe, I guess, potentially have to think about it, but maybe not have to think about it. But, like, why? Because I want to score the touchdown. Because it's gamified, yeah. You told this exact story out there, right?

Yeah. How if your son was going to fall down a stair or something, you'd be there instantly and you'd catch him and it actually wouldn't hurt. But just bending over, that's a complicated question, I think. I mean, sometimes it's a mental thing. But other times it's maybe the adrenaline and the strategy that you had to do without thought,

without any thinking was actually quite okay. And I did ask you like, okay, maybe it didn't hurt when you did it, but is it, did it hurt 10 minutes later or 20 minutes later? And that wasn't the case, right?

No. Yeah. It doesn't hurt. And, you know, after maybe the first time I didn't even consider it or didn't think about it. But then as it happened again, I'm like, dude, I, again, cause we talked about like, you know after maybe the first time i didn't even consider it or didn't think about it but then as it happened again i'm like dude i again because we talked about like you know what what hurts what doesn't hurt like if i have to move quickly left and right or you know any switch

directions put it that way um i will have a hard time because i can't stay as um as rigid and i can't stay as secure but here i am sitting down on the floor like crisscross applesauce and then like oh shit his head's gonna hit that corner i won't even think and i'll sprint across a room like literally cover a whole ground like of a room get him and be totally fine and then after consider it and be like how the like how did that happen like i'll try to like go back and you know decode what what just happened because i'll be like it didn't hurt getting up Because I'll be like, it didn't hurt getting up. It didn't hurt sprinting. It didn't hurt stopping instantly to catch him

because I'm not going to run him over. And then it doesn't hurt right now. Why is that? I don't understand. So I'm like, okay, I didn't think about my back and it didn't hurt. Okay, what else is there? There has to be something else there, right?

Well, acutely, it's kind of easily explained by sympathetic response and adrenaline and trying to save your son from getting injured. What's fascinating is that maybe it doesn't hurt at all with time. So a lot of times what I would expect is that maybe it does hurt 15 minutes later. Like now you're like, okay, I don't really know why,

but my back's starting to kill me. That's not the case with you. So that is a fascinating factor that plays into diagnosing this issue. Can you guys just tell Andrew? We've been trying to tell him. Can you just have him deadlift again for us? And Sam and I, we just want him to deadlift. You.

Don't bring me into this. I never said that. All right. You want him to deadlift. You need to deadlift again. Doctors are orders. Yeah. Okay.

Well, how heavy though? Oh, you almost made it. Well, you were mentioning the principle of SED, I think you were saying, or is that what it was? Yeah, that's correct. And what does that stand for? Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands. So Andrew stopped some heavy exercise for a while and decided to kind of move into doing

some other stuff. And then I think it would be great for, I think he's starting to explore it again now, moving around some weights. What are your guys' thoughts? Like, should he, you know, start to see if he can, you know, get some weights in his hand a little bit here and there? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from what we've done done already like you need to prep and prime the system you need to warm up properly right i mean you need blood flow through those areas before you start to do these movements and that's i mean that's that should be known that should be kind of a basic you should warm up right um but i absolutely you should do it i i don't see why not

you need to prep it was you specifically you got not. You need to prep, you specifically, you got to do those exercises to prep, activate the glutes. Really what we were doing there is to work on your position, the position of your hip and your back in relation to your femur. And so it's very important that position is key.

And I know these guys can coach you through a position. I know that they can get you there. We have to set it on a more granular level. And then the key to staying better there. We have to set it on a more granular level. And then the key to staying better long-term is to progress it. You can't just live at that bottom level. So I mean, I say this with my patients all the time, and then the level past deadlifts is play. And so like the protecting of your son, the playing in your backyard, playing catch, but I think deadlifts are pretty high up there so yeah you're going to warm

up you're going to prep you're going to get your position right and then you're going to lift some heavy weights and it's going to be fine it truly will be i mean i've seen patients like yourself before you're going to be fine no no you've never seen a back like mine i forgot about i haven't you're right and i shouldn't even necessarily say deadlift i guess just like hip hinge with some sort of weight exactly right and then i guess that would be some type of deadlift. That's what we were doing. I think we're always just thinking of like the bar and a straight bar, regular deadlift. Yeah.

Sometimes puts a lot of stress. I haven't trained with a barbell in a long time now. It's free weights, cable machines, or regular machines. But I was partially joking. How unique is my back? How unique is your guys' patients' backs? Because we can kind of play the whole scenario, but we all feel like, nah, dude, you don't understand.

My back hurts. You guys are like, yeah, we have an idea. I'm like, no, no, no, no, but mine's different. How different is it? You are a unique snowflake. Oh, snowflake. The zebra stripes of no, no, no. But mine's different. How different is it? You are a unique snowflake. Oh, snowflake. The zebra stripes the Sahara, bro. There's only one Andrew.

But look, and so there is a recognition from a mental health standpoint in the beginning. If you're a clinician, you're a coach, you need to recognize that the patient, the person believes that this is like the only back situation like this in the world. And so if you bypass that, you are crossing boundaries and you're going to get kickback. You're going to get pushback. The patient is going to be like, you don't understand me. So in terms of that mental health stuff, you have to kind of recognize that coaches, trainers, before you can kind of push them, you have to earn that trust with the patient before you believe. I mean, you could definitely walk through a deadlift with these guys. You trust them. They're you believe. I mean, you could definitely walk through a deadlift with

these guys. You trust them. They're your friends. They're not going to push you there. But if you don't recognize that clinicians and coaches first and foremost, that people think that they're unique and they are unique. I really truly believe that for sure. Maybe the case, uh, mental, your mental idea of what's going on in your back is absolutely unique the orthopedic and strategic movement patterns maybe not so unique i do believe it i do believe you're slightly unlucky though most people with low back injuries do recover quite well they're either not bad enough where it's bad for a week or two weeks and then they get better or that's so bad that you need an immediate intervention like you need a stero bad that you need an immediate intervention,

like you need a steroid injection, you need a discectomy to cure it. What kind of sucks is when you're in limbo. And there's even research to prove this as far as discs go. It's kind of interesting. The larger the disc herniation, the more likely it is to spontaneously resorb or to go away on its own. So if you have – and that's – it's kind of like think of the spinal canal as like an operating room it needs to be clean anything inside that is bad news that's why they do these spinal taps these lumbar punctures to see if

there's anything in the spinal cord if you have been bleeding in that area that thing's got to be pristine so if you have this massive disc bulge or even material from inside the disc comes into the canal, the body sees it as a foreign invader, just like autoimmune stuff. It says, we got to get this out of here. And it takes it away. And then if you have too small of one, that's usually the person who's stiff for a couple of days. They have a hard time getting out of a chair. And then by the next week, they're back to deadlifting. They're like, there's no big deal. I've had a disc herniation. Not that bad. Well, the person in the middle is the tough one. They have been shown if it persists more than six to 12 weeks, there's a really good chance it's persisting for 18 months, 24 months,

and they take time. And that is a little bit bad luck. That is not the majority of people. And I mean, I know this quite well because I'm one of those people. I'm one of those people that had to eat standing for six months because I didn't want sciatica if I had dinner at the table. So I just ate standing and I didn't have my sciatica. So I've had to be in this position of I didn't believe or I thought I had the skills to avoid surgery, but yet it wasn't so mild that it just got better with time or even rehab. I mean, I did tons of rehab and I eventually had to accept my fate and do long-term planning. So I do think you're in that camp. But there are things that prevent us from getting better that are really complex. Like the person who's doing muscle work on you, he's doing exactly what

he should be, but for whatever reason, the next day it's just as tight as it was before you had the work done. So the question is, is what's prevented preventing it from getting better? And that's it. Those are big questions. Those are hard questions. Yeah. And that's where I started kind of diving into the mental side of things recently. Because like I remember like I'd seen dudes in the gym like coming off of a squat and then all of a sudden it's just like they'll tweak it and then they can't walk and i'll be like oh dude like this is gonna like if you have any questions like i can help like you know don't worry about it and then two weeks later they're like 100 they're maxing like what the like okay how did that happen and then it would happen again and again and i'm just like all right dude it's been over a decade like what's what's like what's going

on here like am i like literally broken like what's like why is this happening so that's why i'm like okay maybe it's it's not the physical side anymore like maybe i have to do some more like everyone tells me i need to do mushrooms uh but you know maybe i got them for you whenever you want them honey i do you guys hear that and i ask like almost every day do you yes okay i'll bring you three grams tomorrow i've told you guys several times i want to do them and i have no idea how to get them last time you took like half a stem what's that hero what's it called a hero dose is like uh i think is it three grams more it's five yeah it's like five or eight grams or more? It's five? Yeah, it's like five or eight grams or some shit. That's crazy. Half a stem at work, guys. I got a job.

You know, before we, because I want to know about your sciatica, but I also want to know more about what Mark was mentioning in terms of like, you know, using a lacrosse ball or something across different parts of your body, like the bottom of your foot and feeling some pain. When we had Mike Izzertel on the podcast recently, do you guys know who Mike Izzard tell is? Absolutely. Okay. When we started talking about body work, he was someone who doesn't believe that body work is very effective. And he mentioned for himself, uh, massages are painful. That type of like myofascial, the like rolling on things is painful for him. Um, and I was kind

of surprised that he thought it wasn't necessarily that beneficial unless the athlete perceives it as beneficial. I think he mainly was saying there's not a lot of research behind it. Not a lot of research behind it? Okay. I think that was kind of his main thing. That was his main thing. So I am curious if somebody does like, you know, Kelly Shreds supernova, I started using that maybe 2013 initially, very painful.

Um, but over time, like it'd be like it, it, it helped out. I was, it helped me become more supple in certain areas. I don't know exactly what happened to me, but it became a very easy tool to use, a non-painful tool to use. Was it because I just got used to that and I just didn't perceive as much pain? Or did a actual change happen to my different muscle fibers around my body? Is it actually as beneficial as maybe I think it is or no? Well, there is an element of desensitization to the tissue that's occurring. So when you foam roll your IT band, day one, it's horrible for almost anybody. If you foam roll it every day for even two minutes or something, 30 seconds,

eventually that becomes no problem. Just like playing the guitar is terrible after one minute. And then eventually, of course, they can play whole concerts with no issues. Of course, yeah, there's some callusing and stuff, but it's the same idea. This desensitization occurs. What doesn't occur that I completely agree with,

Ezra Tell, by the way, is that we break stuff up and we create change in the tissue with our fingers. There's research on that, yeah. Yeah. I think I listened to it. I think he was referring to these studies where you have to – like they take tissue out of your body like an IT band and they put it between two vices basically.

And they say, how much force does it take to deform that tissue by 1%? And it's like it's way more than well maybe marking your prime but most people could never even lift those weights much less i'm going to apply with my thumb or my finger to that tissue but there's other explanations that people like schlepp or the fascia people would point out which is that human tissue is active and it's a real thing and it's it has the ability to change itself so there's things like myofibroblasts and different tissues inside that respond there's all these like mechanotransductors or uh like things like can you explain what that is by the way mechano because you mentioned that you guys mentioned

mechanotransduction multiple times in the gym too what is that yeah yeah like proprioceptors mechanoreceptors okay these type of cells they sense things like pressure or tension or speed, like a Golgi tendon organ. It senses rapid speed. So if you're sprinting and before you tear your hamstring off the bone, it's going to make you buckle or maybe even just fall down as opposed to rip the whole thing off the bone. These cells are what allow things to move. This is where I can stick my elbow in Mark's back

and then all of a sudden it lets go a bit and he can touch his toes where he couldn't before. That is the cells allowing tissue in the brain, mainly the brain, allowing this tissue to deform and become different than what it typically is. But we didn't actually change that tissue from a molecular structure standpoint.

I mentioned MU mua like a manipulation under anesthesia yeah so you take somebody after maybe knee surgery that you try to bend their their knee and like nothing it barely goes you knock them out and you can push their heel to their butt and they do this they actually put them in a device that they put on their knee and it just for like an hour just moves their heel to their butt like like a robot does that cause like a lot of trauma or they are sore after it but they wake up and they're like my knee moves now you know because they never could have done that uh conscious awake do they do that to people that don't need surgery yeah there are there i mean is it a practice can i sign up for this can it be a practice

in certain state i think it's washed there's like if your body's stiff. I mean, right? There's a very popular chiropractor on TikTok Instagram who commonly will adjust people under anesthesia. Like goes to a hospital, puts them under, and cracks them head to toe. How do you feel about that? You guys.

How do you guys feel about that? I plead the fifth on this one. Really? What about my mobility standpoint? We'll talk about that shit off plead the fifth on this one. Really? What about my mobility? We'll talk about that shit off air. That sounds interesting. If it's working from a standpoint of like somebody just had surgery, would it make some sense that it might work otherwise?

I mean, chiropractic is one thing, but I'm talking about like just range of motion. Do you guys think it would be helpful or does the body maybe not respond well to that? I just pleaded the fifth on that person, by the way. Not on the concept. On the concept in general. Could Mark get some benefit? I would say if there's no orthopedic block in his knee where it's literally, we call it infield.

Take a joint to the end of the range of motion. Are you guys licensed to do this? Let's do it. We are not. I think it's like Washington and Oregon, those hippies up there. They let's do it we are not not this is not i think it's like washington and oregon those hippies up there they let you do anything well we don't give a fuck if you're licensed just knock them out and do this shit it'll be fun he can just choke me out and you guys can do whatever you want we give you consent even the brown mushrooms not for me maybe for him yeah that was mushrooms what's in this mind bullet? Because I am flying.

It's fantastic. We can't tell you. Amazing. No, it is valuable. There is value everywhere. I mean, people, it wouldn't be a thing if people didn't find value at times. This is where it goes back to the assessment. And there are people who are worse and there are people who are better after it.

So, I mean, it's unique. Absolutely. Yeah. I just feel like if you know i was if i had if i was completely unconscious you guys would be able to move my hips like way easier way better and i just i don't feel like maybe if you created a pattern there so many times over and over maybe when i snap out of it it might still be there that's the key that's the trick actually because going back to it what is retell is talking about massage is not good or people talk about the foam roller or whatever is not good.

How does that translate rolling on a foam roller and an IT band to then say running a 5K and having it not? So there's really creating a pattern. They're saying that a lacrosse ball or a foam roller is enough to break up some muscle and get your Golgi tendons to chill out a little bit and maybe desensitize the issue. But does that translate to you actually being able to bend over better? So there's a big gap there basically. And if you're a good clinician, what you do is you go, okay, we loosen it up and then we progress you very slowly, which we've been talking about constantly. But that leap, I understand what Israeel is saying. There is a leap there that people make.

They're like, just foam roll everything and you'll be better. It's a little bit more nuanced than that. And then when it comes to active release therapy, that's a therapy that was developed where you are taking somebody through a range of motion as you're supposedly scraping away the scar tissue. And maybe you are, maybe you're not, but you are probably reinforcing like, I'm getting rid of this pain by sticking my thumb into your whatever thigh and I'm going to move your leg as I'm doing this and you're going to move. It still will hurt, but it will hurt differently.

It's like the normal pain that you feel is it's like put on pause for a half second and then you have pain just because somebody's putting pressure into a particular spot pattern interrupts pattern interrupts and pattern creation the thing is you can't just rug pull something this is one of the things with meditation that people make a mistake on meditation is a mind fast and if you don't put anything else in there if you go and fast for a day and then go back to mcdonald's it's it not good, right? Like you need to put something good in there. So once you ART, once you're the cross ball, once you foam roll, what are the next steps? What are you then going to put back in? And I think that's where people miss the boat

and where the research is correct. That's my problem with systems. You got to bring a bunch of them in together. Yeah, I think manual therapy, manual therapy, massage, all these tools, K-Star stuff, I think it all is just a tool. But it's like the story doesn't end there. That's passive therapy. And I actually don't do that much manual therapy anymore.

And I have noticed very little difference in my outcomes. I still believe it's entirely valuable. But it's a tool. So I do agree with Izzertail you can't just use some tool and scrape out the tissue and then they're going to be better tomorrow there's no said principle there's no other input that's supposed to

help that improve all you're saying, you loosen something up but why was it tight in the beginning? many things are tight because they're weak so they get tight to lock things down and you get stability now. So if you're not strong enough, it just gets tight. It prevents that way you don't fall over and we fight gravity. So that's going to do nothing for your weakness. So, but what these manual therapies are great for is getting you to feel something, maybe

temporarily unlocking, quote, unlocking something. if if mark couldn't feel his hip on an exercise or his glutes and we do some muscle work and some extra stuff and he said now i can feel it okay now we train that thing and now we get a better said response or a specific adaptation when he goes to load it because before he couldn't feel it maybe he was in a bad position and now when you load it those fibers get the the kind of stress and the mechanotransduction, not that word you wanted me to explain. It's basically stress through a tissue that allows it to get stronger. Bones do this too.

It's called the piezoelectric effect where you stress bone and there's like crystal and energy that basically, not that kind of crystal energy, but that allows it to lay down more bone. And none of that occurs through passive modalities, passive treatments. So, I mean, I'm just a massive proponent of active movement. That's why it comes back full circle. And I think sometimes people like you guys, hands-on all day long with maybe somebody in the gym or personal trainers, they have often – they may not have all the skills. But they probably have the best chance to create the biggest change in people sometimes because they're just with them all the time and they're right there. And I wish like clinics, chiro clinics, PT clinics looked a lot more like a gym.

You know, let me hang from, you hang from this bar. Oh, it hurts. Your left shoulder hurts. Let's put an input, hang from it again. It's gone. And we know we made a change. Is it permanent? We don't know yet, But we know we made a change

versus a sterile clinic environment. You know, they're coming in because it hurts on the third snatch. And I'm going, well, here's an orthopedic test. That's negative now. I have no idea if it's going to improve their snatch. So I wish in the, I hope in the future, you know, clinics, at least for the non-medical,

you know, hospital type of setting looks a little bit more like a gym, you know, like where my man here works. Or you guys had Aaron on here, Squat U. His clinic is very – it's a gym. Same as Stu Miguel. Same as Stu. Legend, yeah. And there's this other guy, Oscar, who Mark actually introduced me to and I do some work with him now.

He has like a squat rack, a bunch of bands, a bunch of things in his clinic. It's like I think there are a lot of people that are starting to take that approach and seeing how useful it is. I won't go as far as like Pavel Sassoulian who was like, I won't go see a chiropractor unless he can deadlift 400 pounds. I don't mind that.

That's a good chiropractor, I bet though. Yeah. Bobby, you were mentioning your sciatica and how you had to stand for six months. Did you actually manage to fix that? Is it still a reoccurring issue? I have the ability to recreate my sciatica if I want. It takes a lot more now. I don't really have to think about it. But if I slouch as hard as I can for a four-hour car ride, I can create some discomfort. It goes away really fast now, though. a four hour car ride, I can create some discomfort.

It goes away really fast now though. So before, I mean like, I wasn't even able to do the McGill Big Three. Just doing like a bird dog would elicit like a punch to my calf. So I mean, again, it's a little bit about luck.

It just happens to be a disc that is lateral and sits right in this recess where the nerve exits. Eventually I got imaging, but I mean at this point, I'm like, this is going to be a disc bulge right in this lateral area. And exits. Eventually I got imaging, but I mean, at this point, I'm like, this is going to be a disc bulge

right in this lateral area. And that's exactly what came back. And it's that medium-sized bulge that tends to not go away on its own. Medium bulge. Medium bulge. Could be worse. Could be.

Could be worse. So, yeah, so my advice for those people would be, the first thing is definitely the McGill type of stuff, which is just stop triggering it. That is step one. If you have a cut and you just keep rubbing it and it keeps bleeding, you just start over. You're just stuck. The first thing is to stop triggering it.

But eventually, you do have to grow. You have to move forward. If you're in my position, I highly recommend some professional help for guidance to go through that path. I honestly believe most people would have had a surgery in my situation because it didn't respond to anything. It took so much time. And if I had sought out orthopedic help,

they would have said, well, we'll just do a discectomy. It's minimally invasive and you'll be fine. And sometimes you are, and sometimes they have uh operations and they are not better afterwards especially in long term so a lot of times with these outcomes when you look at the studies and immediately after operation a menis a meniscectomy taking out a meniscus immediately after the results are better the surgery in the long run they tend to equalize and i was okay with that i was okay to play the long game but i have some set of skills some very specific skills that allow me to be okay with it i knew that i was not going to blow it out completely and have caught equina syndrome

where you you you shit yourself and you didn't know you do it that's you guys have that i am yeah i've been squatting sometime after chipotle for sure that actually that happened to me the other day like i was like no i didn't have chipotle but i don't remember what i was doing but i i was like i pushed and little shit came out like no it was so embarrassing to a certain level where you're just like oh no like again it's not like a it's not like a scarecrow what just happened it was like oh no did you mess yourself or did the deep cheeks come in handy deep hit the boxers hit the boxes a little bit i had to change it up but i was at home so it's okay it kind of sucked the uh the three of us, we love our cold plunge tubs. So, you know, we like to get real cold. I did it. So I've been doing it every day for a couple, well,

like two weeks now. Went on vacation. So the day I left, I did it. The day I came back, I did it. So I missed three whole days. I really missed it. When I'm in there, again, this could be a mental thing. My back doesn't hurt at all. I don't feel anything. I feel the cold water. It feels awesome. But we had, what was his name? Brandon Founier. He recommended contrast therapy for like, you know, aches and pains and stuff.

And I got to like, again, when I'm in it, I feel great. When I get into the shower afterwards, I feel great. But then as time passes, it's like it'll slowly come back. But I still overall feel amazing. What's your guys' take on, like, contrast therapy or even just cold therapy? I love a good cryotherapy person. I've not done the cold plunge. Oh, man.

I had a clinic that was close to a cryo and like it was great for me my wife benefited greatly from it she had uh some insomnia issues and sorry jess if you didn't want people to know that now she had beautiful my lovely beautiful wife but no she did cryotherapy a couple times in a row and i was kind of skeptical about it at first as well but when your girl can sleep i mean it's great i mean when she when she gets rest so in terms of that's all that's my my uh experience with it but yeah have you uh messed with it i have done a lot of it personally and i think to answer your question like directly is everything can work for someone and i think i don't want to ever put somebody down

because I maybe don't agree with what they say is helpful. So if it's helpful, that's it. It works, feels good. But it does make sense. Like the heating pad idea. People with low back pain, they always have these heating pads everywhere, like one in their car, one in their office,

one on their couch. And it's like it only feels good when it's on and if they don't use it or an hour later, it feels worse. But you just, there's something called an analgesic. Analgesgesic is ibuprofen it's ice ice is an analgesic so you feel it's if you're numb you can't feel it i mean uh that's actually one of the ways that that medicine diagnosis things they use something like like a nerve block or they inject something so is it before they do the operation we want to know this thing's actually coming from this

structure so what we're going to do is we're going to numb it and then we're going to try to is before they do the operation, we want to know this pain is actually coming from this structure. So what we're going to do is we're going to numb it, and then we're going to try to irritate it. And if you don't feel it, there's a good chance that when we take it out, it's going to be beneficial. So these analgesics have an effect like that. From our perspective, it's great for sometimes diagnosis to know. Even rubbing something for a really long time, like James Cyriac, an old orthopedic, it's called transverse friction, It has this numbing effect. So if I want to know that the pain's coming from your patellar tendon,

I can rub it back and forth. Syriac's did it for like 20 minutes, sometimes 15 minutes. And what'll happen is that you'll be so desensitized to that painful, that nociceptive tissue in the patellar tendon, that he'll be able to squat without pain. And that'll be brief though

but it does have what if you were just to like smash someone's toe would do the same thing where's the pain yeah like a major pain style yeah you're right your right knee hurts someone just fucking takes a little hammer and goes boop right to your toe yeah does that displace the like if i did a squat would i not feel that's's kind of the Paula Quinn like jaw trick as well. Like it's a little bit look over here. Yeah. Right. And you're not thinking anymore.

Right. Remember Major Payne? Yeah. Oh yeah. He's like, here, give me your finger. He just snaps it. Maggots. Yeah.

I love that movie. That's old school. Yeah. It's super old. You don't know Major Payne? It's not me too. Wayans Brothers? Is it Damon?

Yeah, Damon Wayans. It was him, yeah. Now I feel bad for not knowing it. Dude, it's so good. It's probably kind of annoying these days, but at that time, it was really funny. You don't have a forehead. You have a five head. When I salute, I salute like this.

It's a great movie. Oh, that reminded me. Mark, actually, go ahead. You have something. Oh, I was just going to say I had sciatica pretty bad when I was like – but luckily for me, I was like 20 years old, 19, 20 years old. And so it just went away. I went to the doctor.

They looked at my thing. They were like – they looked at my MRI or whatever the hell it was that they did. And they were like, this is really bad. You need to get surgery. And they said back fused. And I was like, I'm out. As soon as – I have a spinal fusion. I'm like, I don't know what that means. It sounds horrible.

And it sounds like I may never recover from that. But I think I can just recover from this, even though it was hard to go to the bathroom. Laughing was out of the question. Sneezing was out of the question. But when you're living in that moment, it seems like it's forever. But honestly, it was probably like about six months or so. I was playing football and I was like sprinting and lifting and trying to like get myself in shape for that. And then just one day just woke up and just could barely walk.

And I'm like, what in the fuck is this? When I went to the doctor, they said, you know, not to really do much of anything. So I was like, all right, for the first time in my life, I'll actually take that advice because I can't move. So I don't know what the results of me trying to go in the gym and trying to deadlift or something would be. And so I took a few weeks and I was like – I felt like I was getting worse. And so I'm like, I'm just going to write down a bunch of things that I can do and I'll stick with that and i won't worry about what i can't do and so i was like i could do curls i could do certain machines i can do this i can do that and stay away from stuff that hurts and i did that and then again eventually you know luckily again i was super young so my body was very

resilient to be able to but it just went away after a while. And we've talked before with guys like Stan Efferding on the show, and we talked about physical therapy and chiropractic and all these different things. And Stan's like, you know what? A lot of times just like six or eight weeks goes by. Was it the ibuprofen? Was it the doctor? Was it like no one really knows? It's hard to dial it back very specifically to like research. Is that kind of – does that feel like it's hard to uh you know dial it back very specifically to like research is that kind of does that feel like it's true like is that what you guys have found like maybe in a disappointing way

as being people that are trying to help people with the best you can very fair very reasonable i think that's fair i think we want to think that everybody who never comes back to our clinic we fixed but but there's a really good chance that those people just went somewhere else because the problem came back. And then they're like, well, they didn't fix me. And then you don't know that they're at three other clinics in the next year. But just before I forget this point on the disc,

there used to be no evidence that supported that discs responded to mechanotransduction. Just think of mechanotransduction as any kind of load going through the tissue, any stress, whether it's tangential stress or compressive force, it doesn't matter. But there's been recent evidence just in the last couple of years that supports through research studies that the disc itself

actually can respond to mechanotransduction or will use mechanotransduction to heal or to grow tissue, which I read that study. It came out as I was in the middle of stuff. So it was actually quite optimistic for myself as somebody who's worrying, I'm really happy you didn't do a fusion. I don't think you would be where you're at today, especially, or what you have accomplished in your sport. If you would have gotten a fusion, there's a chance. Some people get double hip replacements and still do amazing things. you would have gotten a fusion.

There's a chance. Some people get double hip replacements and still do amazing things, and other ones never picked up their activities ever again the same way, not even close. So I do think the body can. I'm a big believer of adaptation. You just said something that I spent a lot of money on to learn. You could have saved me some bucks.

You could have saved me some bucks, which is like do what you can though and do as much as you can walk up to the precipice of the cliff but don't fall over and just do those i mean you just it just comes intuitively to you where other people might need a little bit more trauma a little bit more wake up like stop doing that stop stop dead lifting you finally need to stop dead lifting and get something pull back a little bit and then bring it back in so like to answer your earlier question like i hope he does start getting into stuff again but don't push him too fast and let him let him adapt actually like in terms of the six to eight things as well though i don't want people listening to take that as an excuse that like it's just going to get better as well like if you have had it for six to eight weeks and you've maybe tried some stuff on your own, go see somebody. Like people are like, ah, it'll just get better. Ah, it'll just get better. I see these people. I'll be like, Hey, how long have you had your back pain, Mark?

And they'll be like six months, nine months. And I'm like, bro, where have you been? Now we got to start on this. So, I mean, there is a point, let it, let it give it a chance to heal on its own for sure. But if not, go see somebody. This makes me wonder real quick. What you guys would suggest that people observe, because we're lucky enough to know individuals like yourself, Kelly Sturette, a bunch of people who we've been able to have on, who we trust their input.

But if somebody just goes to a clinic and an individual just wants to start cutting into them and this is a professional, what – and I know it's case to case and dependent on that. But what are some red flags? You know what I mean? Because like for example, my meniscus, I ended up having a meniscectomy. So I had part of it removed and I'm good now. But for example, that doctor told me post-surgery, he said you shouldn't move anything. You should stay off this leg for a good four weeks. Don't do any type of exercise. Don't do much.

And who was it that I talked to? There's this coach that we know who works with an NBA team who I messaged, and he's like, start doing these things immediately. And within two and a half weeks, I was back in the gym. Schlesinger? It wasn't Schlesinger for this one. It was somebody else. Bald white guy. He's married to a black lady.

Oh, no. Doesn't Louis Simmons have – these are endless stories from him. They told him to change everything. He's like, no, I'm going in tomorrow. His stories of like his wound from – is still bleeding as he's like – he's bench pressing the next day. But it makes me wonder. In these situations, it's like if I did listen to the professional, maybe I wouldn't have good range back in my knee. But I had somebody who really knew what I should be doing.

So what do people need to be looking out for when they go to a chiropractic clinic or any of these clinics to try to get help? Are you talking about like red flags red flags in terms of like bad clinicians or red flags in your body like is it like if sciatica goes past the knee and your foot is numb for a minute like that's when we start to wonder about things like pain that goes down like or you're talking about like if you go see a doctor and a doctor says let's hit both okay yeah i mean again going back to what we're talking about with mark progressively worsening symptoms are not good. Yeah.

If it's just getting worse and getting worse and getting worse, see a doctor. I mean, and you also, I think like word of mouth in terms of finding a clinician, like if you had a good experience with them, good bedside manner, like do a little bit of research. You might research stuff for yourself, but research the doctor as well. Like there's information out there you can go see someone the problem one of the problems is the insurance like we could that's a whole other rabbit hole but like some people are just more affordable that doesn't make them better right and they could be totally fine um what would you look out for in clinicians? That's an interesting question. That's a great question. I think people that spend time with you,

people that ask questions, ask good questions. You know, they don't just ask two, three, like how long has it been going on? Where is it? And they kind of like lean under the table, you know, look around the table and they look at your knee because you're saying you have knee pain.

But somebody that takes the time to evaluate it fully and they ask good questions. You don't feel rushed. I mean, that's definitely the people I would look for. It's hard, though. It's really hard. It's geographic. You only have so many choices.

Are you willing to travel? A lot of these things. And also, on the other side, though, just because they do have a massive following or they are expensive, it's not like it's a linear line with how how uh how much their expertise or how good they are what kind of outcomes sometimes sometimes but not always so it's yeah i think i think people will intuitively kind of know this right like

he didn't even look at it he just prescribed this medicine that's a big one i mean especially and i don't blame them these the family care physicians, you know, your general practitioner, they don't have any time. They get like seven minutes with every patient. They don't have time to do a bunch of tests on a table and see what's weak and stuff. But what they should do, what's responsible from their perspective is to refer them,

to send them to a PT, to send them to a chiro that will take the time to look deeper. So yeah, somebody that's telling you they have all the answers is another red flag, I would say. Like, this is the only place to be. I went to a certain chiro school because the other one I shadowed said, this is the only chiro school. Like, you should just go here.

And then I went to look at the other one I shadowed, and they were like, hey, if this isn't for you, don't come here. And I was like, these are my people. These are my people. I'm going to this school. That's how simple my choice was is because I could relate to that. What happens when you guys don't accept insurance? You can do that as well, right? You can go private, right? Yeah, I mean, people go cash all the time.

Is that what happens? I mean, people go cash all the time. Just price people out sometimes. Is that what happens? 100%. Don't people – they feel sometimes like they're already paying for something, their insurance, and they want to use it. I'm paying for this thing I have. I want to get something out of it. That's a big problem for them to say.

But you guys aren't using like – I don't think you guys are using like a lot of like medical stuff. So does the price get like – times when you go into a hospital? I mean if it's an emergency situation, yeah, it definitely does. Yeah, for sure. This is not my area. I've been in Iceland for eight years in a totally different system. So I'm out of the loop on the insurance. How does it work in Iceland?

Well, all chiropractic in Iceland is basically cash. And there is socialized medicine over there. So like, for example, I mean, we have an emergency cesarean and an ambulance. There's zero bill. Of course, you pay it through your taxes and stuff. But it's a different system. And chiropractic specifically in Iceland is just a cash system. Like you just pay for it. and there's things called unions almost everybody's in a union and they'll reimburse some of it kind of like what an insurance company will do like a deductible

versus the entire amount it's similar system over there but i don't know anything currently about what's going on with the u.s insurance and chiropractic or pt and pts typically get a lot more coverage and after years of doing chiropractic um how. PTs typically get a lot more coverage. And after years of doing chiropractic, how do you guys feel about it? Like, do you feel like the actual chiropractic, like cracking stuff? Are you for it?

Are you, have you found it to not be as maybe effective as you thought, or is it more effective than you thought? Like, where's your stance on it? I'm mostly against it. Just straight up. Like I don't find benefit myself in it.

I haven't seen it being reproducible in a lot of people. What case would you use it? Is there a case where you would use it or not really, not anymore? For sure. There are cases. If we're going to go back to the mental health aspect of things as well, if people think they need an adjustment, adjustments seem to work really well on those people.

I've found, um, I like some extremity adjustment. Honestly, there's some, there's some foot stuff, uh, that's really good.

There's some, there are some good manipulations, um, as a piece of the treatment as like, uh, you know, the mashed potatoes in a meal situation. So for sure,

there's, and honestly one of the things about manipulation is that is a very skilled thing to do so young chiropractors if you've been if you've been doing it for two or three years if you've been lifting for two or three years it's the same thing there's someone who's been lifting for 10 years and it's very different so if you could there are people who are that skilled at it and it's a very small percentage of people let's be totally honest you can hear that like asmr pop that people love yeah and that that's god bless fantastic want to take it what's your what's your opinion i'll just yeah i i do think it's effective uh but i don't i think the story that we're told is incorrect or incomplete so for example you know when when when you go to chiro school or

you go to a chiropractor as a patient they'll tell you that well when i adjust you i'm basically going to realign things like as if it was that easy it's just it's like as if you just went in and you picked up one pound and did one curl and you just looked like ronnie coleman the next day that would be so convenient it just doesn't work like that and also there's this other chiropractic idea that when everything's in alignment uh the nervous system works better and there's not a lot of evidence to support that because it's such a broad statement. It's not even like studyable.

You know what I mean? But what I do, I do think this stuff works, but maybe on a, from a scientific perspective on a different method. So let's say you put somebody, you ever had your low back cracked, right? So they put you on your side and they drag one, the top leg up real high and they twist you and they crack. Well, one, the top leg up real high and they twist you and they crack. Well, there's a logical explanation for why, okay, pain is different, but let's just say you actually are better. Like you get up and you couldn't touch your toes and

now you can, right? There's an explanation besides alignment and nervous system stuff that we get taught or preached at these clinics, which is that when you put a rapid stretch into tissue that's already at end range, you elicit these Golgi tendon organs, these cells. Might have got the same response if you had me catch a ball. Yeah, like a rapid stretch. Yeah, exactly. 100%.

Like I threw a ball in my feet and I caught it. Maybe I'd have the same. Or your kid is falling. Or stick my elbow in your back and boom, you create inhibition. And the muscle temporarily lets go a bit. I don't know why, but I feel great. Not to mention, what are joints? This is an easy one.

What are joints meant to do? Move muscles. Just move. Smoked? They're there to create movement, right? There's a space in the middle of my arm that is a joint that allows me to drink whatever I want to drink, right? The joint is just meant for movement. And when you move, it's what allows fluid to move around.

In the spine, we call this imbibition. You squeeze the disc and it pushes water out. It's like a sponge. It pulls it back in. This is how we move nutrients around. It's the same with the joint. We used to think you crack your knuckles, your fingers, they get thicker. You get arthritis. They actually studied

this and they found absolutely no change or possibly a benefit. It's almost like, duh. Let it out. Let it out. My shit doesn't even crack anymore, you know? Yeah.

I don't know. Oh, it's probably, I know. Yeah. It's so good. It never cracks. And it's kind of like, duh. It should have a positive benefit because joints are meant to move. And when you move them, the fluid gets to get pushed around and, you know, like you

train and blood gets pushed around. It's like there's all these massive benefits to that. So the joints actually get to – maybe that person has just been stuck in stuckville for a year and then you finally force the low back to move enough to – and the pop just comes because you created enough movement to separate the joint that there's a change of pressure inside, like opening a Pepsi bottle. People know chiropractic because of the popping. And what you're maybe proposing is

maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the popping. Because sometimes you go to move someone around, it doesn't make any noise. But because you moved them in a quick fashion, maybe that's something that helps. And maybe it would be similar if you were to put weight or pressure on an area that could also have a benefit, right?

There's maybe multiple ways to get to the same thing. The people that benefit the most, honestly, from adjustments are often really deconditioned. And same thing with people that benefit from manual therapy or massage. Like someone does manual therapy massage on your back uh versus someone who spends time on their couch it's going to be far more beneficial to that deconditioned person because there's a novel stimulus and it really will change them i mean they will experience a difference because anything is good than the nothing that's happening to their body guys these legendary tasty pastries have changed the game they're 20 grams of protein, 5 grams of carbs.

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And there's some stuff to back this up. A lot of the chiropractors will point out research that shows after a manipulation, power output went up. But like I said, they're not wrong. It's almost like the explanation for why there's improvement seems to be the disconnect, in my opinion. It's like, oh, it's explained by the fact that now you have tissue that's more in a better position or relaxed or more neutral,

we like to say sometimes. It's kind of sitting where it's supposed to be. So you'll be able to generate better power afterwards. So there's just a lot of other explanations that are maybe more caught up with the research and the literature to support what chiropractic is actually doing. But I am somebody that manipulates and thinks that it is beneficial. I want to ask this because there are probably individuals who are PTs or chiros that are listening to this. And you guys even mentioned that you didn't just go to school after that. You've continued and are continuing to learn more things from different clinics, different practitioners, et cetera. So for an individual

who has gone through, what are some other areas that you think they need to start paying attention to or areas that they need to start expanding and learning from? Because I would assume that individual who just goes to chiro school, if it's a small town and they have their clinic, they might do well financially, but they're probably behind as far as application versus guys like yourselves and other people who are leaders in that field. versus guys like yourselves and other people who are leaders in that field? There are a lot of courses. There are a lot of schools.

I went on a rabbit trail. I guess I can talk about my personal experience. One of my first influences is actually Kelly Starrett. I remember I literally would watch a playlist of his videos, and I was just like, I want to be able to think about the body the way that Kelly thinks about the body. You can get their methods and do the techniques. But until you can really be like, I understand what he's talking about. From Kelly, I found this guy named Gray Cook, FMS, SFMA guys, brilliant stuff.

They did a collaboration. I was like, okay, what's going on? And after Gray Cook, I read the book movement like three times there's a squad on there's a chapter on squats in movement that i literally rewrote myself like i would just is it by uh great cook by great cook okay great read very accessible as well especially for trainers and people that listen to this um and that that chapter on squats like blew my mind then i kind of i – I'm a guy that looks at the appendix and I'm like, who are you referencing? Where did you get your stuff from? Who is this Louis Simmons you guys keep talking about and what does he know?

And so I took another step back. I went from Greg Cook. Then I went to this thing, Vladimir Yanda and Pavel Voida. Václav Voida. Václav Voida. Pavellav Voida. Vaklav Voida. Pavel Kolash is the main guy that went from them. Yonda is the guy who you've heard of lower cross syndrome or upper cross syndrome.

So people will be like, you know how your pecs are tight and your rhomboids are weak? You have an anterior pelvic tilt and your hip flexors are tight. There's tonic and phasic muscles. Yonda kind of was the originator of this. And so I went back to even that and where that came from. So these days, Vladimir Yanda has a book. He has a cohort named Carol Lewitt.

Carol Lewitt is also kind of one of the forefathers in our world. Read his book, his books many times um you kind of have to search for him these days but like if you want to know where physical therapy kind of came from you got to go to the roots and these guys are uh there now paul volkolosh is the uh one of the founders of dns which is where Yonda came from and Carol Lewitt came from after that. So DNS, they have courses, they have all sorts of courses. After DNS, which is a developmental kinesiology. So like they say that babies have a very predictable set of progressions of like lifting their head and then rolling and coming up on all fours, rolling on their side, pulling themselves up. And then they would basically

visit rehab in that sense. So if you have back pain, we're going to start you at a one-month position. Now we're going to get to a three-and-a-half-month position. We could go into all of this stuff. But after that, so latch on to what you want to latch on to. But after that, I got into, and it's a little less popular these days, but there's still definitely some crossover. This guy, Leon Chetow and it's a little less popular these days, but there's still definitely some crossover. This guy, Leon Chetow, he has a lot of manual therapies.

Chetow, C-H-A-I-T-O-W, he's passed. But he's also one of those forefathers in our industry. Like if you call yourself – if you're a practicing clinician, you should know who these people are. I've read all of his books they're great um after chetow though there's a bunch of older guys i went into um some physiotherapy guys in europe they practice medicine physical manual medicine a little bit different than we do um but then i got into some stuff here in the states called pri and pri puts a bunch of things together when i was talking about the natural asymmetries in the body they have a way of laying that stuff out

postural restoration institute people make fun of them because they'll there's um balloons balloons blowing up and they really they break down we've talked about patterns in the body they lay out a main pattern uh and then there are sub patterns beneath that. And so if you want to get really granular, they connect the orthopedic tests to the patterns. And so you can do a set of orthopedic tests and be like, you are this type of pattern, you are this type of pattern. And you need to, for me to learn, I have to like bathe in this stuff. Like I have to listen to these lectures over and over. I need to like the K-star thing, like Kelly Starrett, I have to listen to these lectures over and over I need to like the K-Star thing like Kelly Starrett I need to know your mindset

I want to think like you think and then yeah that's everybody I mean there are a lot of other people the main recommendation that I give younger doctors is that if you find a school that says to do things this way and then you find another school that says this school sucks

don't ever do it like that you got to study both of them yeah you got to be you got to know both um that's a long reading list for you those young chiropractors that'll keep you busy for a minute but yeah no that's good just to add something kind of a little bit different i would say for these new docs or new clinicians chiros trainers, think of it a little bit like the food pyramid. You want to start – not that food pyramid. It sucks. What is it, like 30 servings of grains every day? A pyramid.

Yeah. A hierarchy. Yeah. We think of it like that, like there's strata of this pyramid. And you don't want to start with Postural Restoration Institute even though they might have had the biggest influence on me personally. You want to start with Gray Cook. You want to start with K-Star, Kelly Starrett. You want to start with books like Movement and things like Stuart McGill. I mentioned this earlier.

I was just mad that every Cairo student doesn't automatically know every word of Stuart McGill. It's not like you see Stuart McGill – like if you read him, you're some special nerd that went way above and beyond. This should just be automatically regurgitated from every kind of person, but it's not. You'd be lucky if they can, they might tell you,

oh, the bird dog, that's him, right? Like that might be what they know. So I mean, I think you build the foundation with these things like find the trigger. How do you regress and lateralize a person, how do you coach a person?

These are really beneficial things in the beginning. How do you take somebody who can't do a deep ATG split squat and how do you get them, how do you progress them, how do you regress them or as Weingroff says, how do you lateralize them sometimes to an alternative movement to accomplish the same

task? And then as you get more and more experienced and you get lateralize them sometimes to an alternative movement to accomplish the same task. And then as you get more and more experience and you get towards the top, then you check out things like DNS and PRI. And honestly, it'll resonate a lot more. Because I can tell you something I've talked with him a lot about is like, you know, after I take a course, I'm worse as a clinician for like the next month. Because you're trying to implement a bunch of stuff you really don't truly understand. You think you got it because you understood.

It's like when you're in math class and they show the problem on the board and you're like, I follow, I follow. And then you get to the test and they've changed it slightly. Well, now the cannon is being shot off the second story. I don't know how to solve this problem. And that's the clinic. That's the clinic.

So I mean, I think you start with foundations and then you get more granular and you get to the more esoteric or even woo woo stuff i mean get to that later yeah what was really cool is in the very short time that you guys were working on me uh dude you you gave me the exact same diagnostics or diagnosis, I should say, that Stuart McGill gave me. So you said it like right on the spot. And so that was freaking awesome. But you guys are, your approach is awesome because you aren't closed off to anything, it seems like.

And then what you just said right now, John, it's like if you see two people going at it, you should study both. 100%. Where does this come from? I don't know, did you follow somebody that was more open-minded or did you just find it more beneficial for yourselves? I grew up, I was, I was homeschooled. I don't want to talk too much about myself, but like I grew up and I, I had the idea that like, I I'll see something interesting out there and I'm like, how does, how does that happen? Like, I need to know. I remember watching my dad

put a cassette in a VHS and I was like, what sort of magic is, and I like, I how does that happen? Like I need to know. I remember watching my dad put a cassette in a VHS and I was like, what sort of magic is? And I like, I want to know the underpinnings of it. I want to figure it out. And so people will say stuff and yeah, I'm just like, what do you mean by that? Let's dig into it. What do you mean by that?

It's just something, yeah, a mindset. How do you do it? I think one of the things that shocks you right away is that people come in and you're supposed to help them. And once you get out of school, you're like, this is scary. You're like, they're trusting me and paying me sometimes a lot of money. You're like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. So you immediately feel this guilt of like, I have to get better at this. And I think that's a, that should be something that clinicians feel that like, they don't understand the situation. We need to learn

more, uh, to do that. I mean, I think that's a, that's a big part of it. Um, I think there's also an ego aspect of it, at least initially for me out of school was like, you know, my favorite movie growing up was Good Will Hunting. And I've always admired, my grandfather was extremely smart and like in many ways anyway. And I always admired intelligence. It's just something I admire in people. And so out of school, like I want to be the guy. Like I want somebody to say like, you know, like Stuart McGill's name's tossed around. Like now actually that doesn't really motivate me at all. But it did initially. And it did that combined with a real fear that I –

or like being scared that I have to actually help this person. This person is depending upon me. I think that pushed me to explore as much as I could. And I wish I only could work 10 hours a day and the other, sorry, 10 hours a week and the other 30 hours I'm doing continuing ed. I would just love it. Or I would just see two, three people a day

and that's my focus and I could really help them. The problem is there's not a great market for that type of setup. The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. I mean, truly, you gotta be humble and wanna learn. You see stuff that you don't understand, figure out a way to understand it. to an extent, Olympic lifters can be added into this. But what type of overall long-term movement dysfunction do you see within individuals in this community? Because as we've started getting into more movement in general, I was lucky enough to get into grappling, so there's a lot of varied movement there. But as some of these athletes get older, you start to see how

their sport may have affected their body. I think Mark is an example of this. He was an elite level powerlifter, but now doing a lot of things, you can explain it better than I can in terms of the levels of stiffness you feel in certain areas, trying to get in. So how can athletes mitigate the long-term effects of lifting sports? the long-term effects of lifting sports? I want, actually, I'm interested. Bobby has a really great answer for this. And it goes back to the upper cross and lower cross guys,

which is a very basic kind of pattern of the human body and it can get more granular and specific. But there are a set of muscles that do one thing and a set of muscles that do another. Let's just say prime movers and fine movers. They use the words tonic and phasic and bobby explains it actually really really well so like i don't know take it away bobby that what are those top first explain what tonic and phasic are but like the the anterior tib stuff that like that ben has people doing now like there are muscles like the anterior tib that are just not

addressed yes um there are hip flexors that are not stretched um but yeah bobby has a great explanation for it honestly well this this comes from the dns guys or the people from you know the the people that focus on primitive patterns or infants and uh what do you say developmental developmental thank you yeah milestones like as as babies age and we we see these patterns that they exhibit they noticed people like voita and collage and all these things they noticed that yeah they noticed that babies like upon being birth had certain muscles that were activated certain and we call those the tonic muscles these are the muscles like

the low back the calves things like pectorals, lats, things like that. These tended to be active in infancy. And they noticed what was inhibited upon birth were things like the longest cola in the neck or hamstrings or sometimes parts of the core, the obliques, tib anterior maybe. Yeah, you can't stretch a baby's hamstrings. That's very true. Yeah, their legs are like bent. It was weird. I remember like messing with my kids like when they were little. Testing stuff out.

Of course. Yeah, and they have a tiny little marble hip with a big socket. So that's why they can chew on their toe all day long. But anyway, what they observed basically was that in adults, basically is that in it and adults we would often regress or resort to that infant stabilizing strategy that you do upon birth uh when things are off or when weakness sets in or injury sets in we resort trauma trauma and that's why they you know it's like you've never seen somebody come in and just like my hamstrings are just so strong i can't turn them off but how can i get my quads to turn on like barring some kind of surgery like nobody says that they usually say the opposite right or my i just my my what

do i what is the one i used earlier oblique yeah i just can't shut my obliques off you know like so this is dns kind of talking about that aspect of things. But one thing on that point of the question that you asked, I think it depends on the intensity and severity of how you're doing it. If it is your career, how much mitigation is how much willingness you are to put into it outside that task. But you are going to suffer, like guaranteed, to do that sport. But I think the best advice you could give is like, could you take a time machine back and just start moving in a lot of, like the book we talked about, range. Be a Roger Federer as a child,

and you'll probably move better later in life. But you can't do that. So I think there's a definitely opportunity cost that you have by being a serious professional athlete like mark could maybe be marginally better uh for sure if he was really cognizant of it during his his uh prime years of of power lifting but he's still gonna he's gonna compensate and he has to compensate to accomplish those tasks it's important to compensate so like that list of muscles though to get back to the actual answer to your question uh like the anterior tib the intrinsic muscle let's go up the chain the intrinsic muscles of your feet low hanging fruit

lacrosse ball work lifting your toes up and down right anterior tib is also going to be weak the calves are going to be tight the quads are typically going to be strong and too tight. The hamstrings are going to be weak. I remember hearing a Louie clip where he was like, most commonly when someone, what was it, a squat or a deadlift gets to 650 and wants to get to 700, your hamstrings suck. He was just like, your hamstrings are weak. Same thing with the bench. He was like, your triceps. Triceps fall along that list of things that are weak and unattended to. Your rhomboids, muscles like that, your core and obliques. And so, A, stretching things like your calf, strengthening things like your anterior tip, stretching things like your quads, strengthening things like your hamstrings,

strengthening things like your obliques, stretching things like your quads, strengthening things like your hamstrings, strengthening things like your obliques, stretching things like your glutes. And so you could, loosening things up like your pecs, strengthening things like your rhomboids, stretching your biceps, strengthening your triceps. What about like internal rotation of your hip and external rotation of your shoulder? That's the next rabbit hole. So like we were talking about fascial movement and bigger planes so we can isolate those muscles and they're very important as well but then you need to know those muscles work in larger tandems right so in terms of external internal you want to go over that internal external rotators because i mean i'm wondering as i'm kind of jogging some of this

through my head as we're talking you're mentioning like it's rare for someone to be like, oh my God, my glutes are way too strong or my hamstrings are way too strong. I kind of almost wonder if the same is true of like internal-external rotation and maybe we can make a generalization. I know that's not a great idea all the time. No, that's good. But internal rotation of the hip, external rotation of the shoulders. What do you guys think about that?

You're right. There's actually a term for this called capsular patterns. Capsular patterns tell you typically with the average person, this is how they degrade over time. You're going to lose – and hip, the capsular pattern of the hip is internal rotation. The first thing you will lose is internal rotation. And adduction. That is usually what goes –

Adduction is what? Coming inwards, adding abduction, going away. Bringing away from the midline. I always miss that. Yeah. Yeah. So where were we? Internal, external, capsular patterns.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I said, there's a term for that. So when you take your sport, for example, like the example you used, your job for most powerlifters necessarily olympic lifters but power lifters a lot of times it's that er that external rotation you know you toes slightly out knees out over the over the ankles and kind of a like a sit back heavy hamstring low back type of squat power lifting squat that's gonna feed into the capsular pattern of losing internal rotation you're good at external rotation great at poor at internal Poor at internal and abduction. So soccer players are typically the same way.

They've just been turning their foot out passing a ball like 10,000 times a year for years and they rarely need to turn it in. So you're going to see capsular pattern for them but way ahead of time. It's just going to be sped up. So I'm just shocked when I get a soccer player on the table and their hip turns in, to be honest. They're awful at it. And then this is where patterns come in where you find people with instability. So if you notice that they have internal rotation and adduction, Andrew, then you're like, hold on, why do you have this? This is not common. There's this phrase we were talking about this guy,

Tom Sachs. He's an artist, but he says creativity is the enemy. You need to have some sort of structure, some sort of framework to work off of. First, we know that these are common. This is the 80%. What's the 20% so that we don't miss it. So like the external rotation, same thing with the shoulders, internal rotation is not common. So if you have a bunch of internal rotation, I'm like, what have you done? Is there a capsule that has snapped? Are there ligaments that you're missing integrity in that you've got that internal rotation? Which is where we're like, maybe we don't do mobility on this, meaning more stability. Would it be fair to say that if you have external rotation of your shoulder, that you would have decent range of motion internally and then the opposite of the hip what's interesting sometimes is it's the opposite if you lack external rotation

you might have a what seems to be a lot of internal rotation but a lot of that's just based on position of the shoulder so for example there's an interesting thing like where you take somebody and you put them at the edge of a table and you let their arm kind of fall like this. You might notice one arm goes way down off the table. This is like a PRI concept. You put them on the other side of the table and this arm just maybe barely drops. And you say, okay, maybe is the left side really tight or there's a problem. But what you don't realize is that the person's whole thorax and ribcage is already flying their airplane to the right, so to speak.

So they're actually equal, but it looks like there's a ton of abduction on the right side and there's nothing on the left. So a lot of times the position of the hip, if your static posture is in far external rotation, for example, it looks like you have a ton of internal rotation because you're starting in external rotation. Does that make sense? Very tricky. You're already an external rotation. Does that make sense? You're already in external rotation.

So it looks like you have a ton of internal rotation. If you're already at the end of your external rotation and then you try to externally rotate, it feels like nothing's there. It's all based on position. It's like the hand is not sitting at 12. It's already at 3.

And you're trying to go further to 5. You see what I mean? He's pulled over. I can't pull over anymore. He's already pulled over. That're trying to go further to five you see what i mean that's super troopers he's pulled over i can't pull over anymore he's already pulled over that's what he's talking about you're already there so it looks like you have more but you don't it's very tricky you haven't seen that either in sema i can tell from super troopers because you didn't know that one's very that's fairly i mean i mean not new but i know it's not that the schnoz berries taste like schnoz berries there's my god shenanigans that's a great yeah no that makes so we have that template to look at external

and internal rotation so it can be tricky this is why we're like assess but generally back to your question you as weight as weightlifters is what we're talking about you need adduction and internal rotation we're talking about that earlier. Same thing with your shoulder. You're probably good at extern rotation, which is where you can create a lot of torque, which is important in weightlifting, right? But the opposite is true. Like, well, you need intern rotation as well. I'm trying to think like an Olympic lifter, when they go to do something like a clean, their feet automatically kind of flop way outward. And the guys that are really fucking good,

their feet are actually straighter. And the guys that are really good, they're actually kind of more naturally bow-legged a little bit. And they're able to have their feet straight and land with kind of perfection. It just brings up a lot of interesting things. Like if you get really good at one thing, you could be leaving a lot of other stuff behind um interestingly enough there was enough knowledge when i started

down the rabbit hole of power lifting there was enough people talking about um kind of these diagonal patterns and um paul check being one of them and i i did mess with a lot of that stuff in the beginning. But as I got more like tunnel vision, I honed in and focused on the task. And I was like, I don't really know if I need – because most of that stuff I did when I was weaker. Like wood chops and things like that. have rewound anything or worked on anything it would be just even a small dose of that stuff may have may have left me in better off shape getting out of the sport but like I'm still able to do a lot of shit so it's hard to say I don't know if that would have pulled me away from you know being able to do some of the things I did I'm not sure but looking back at it now it

seems like it would have made some sense to keep a little bit more of that stuff in there. And Louie Simmons was a huge fan of that stuff. He was like, you guys, you're huge. You have to sled drag. We need some sort of we need some kind of conditioning. You got to do farmer's carries. You got to do med ball tosses and stuff.

He was a fan of a lot of this stuff. He just couldn't get anybody to do it. But just to defend you a little bit, there's always an opportunity cost for everything. So if you got a lot more flexible, just think of like some hippie yoga person. Do you think they're going to power lift a lot? You're not going to bet on that person.

And you know what? For them to use energy to stabilize takes a ton of energy. Like, I don't know, some percentage of their effort. It might negatively impact. Yeah, they can't. They cannot put the force through the bar. They're worried about trying to keep their femur from wobbling, their lower leg from wobbling.

So by you generating stiffness through the years, you don't have to waste effort and force and ATP and all these things to stabilize. You're already stabilized. So now when you push through the floor, the bar goes up. I didn't even need to warm up a lot of times. Yeah, you're already stable. So yeah, maybe you're better off today, but maybe you squat 850, not 1,080 or whatever it was.

What are you guys doing on your personal day-to-day in terms of improving your ability to move and age well, what are some practices that you guys haven't always talked about play, but yeah, what, what does that kind of look like for you guys? I run. Yeah. Run, man. I, I mean, I played college soccer. My body just responds well to running. Like same thing with you and lifting. You're just like, you can lift and your body's like, absolutely. hills hills i'll tell you one thing i've been into lately is running downhill um it's just not it's just nice you got to learn there's one of the um the movements and things eccentric movements are hard like your your nordics your hamstrings

eccentrically yielding as i run downhill you have to learn how to absorb force and it and so anytime i kind of find a problem i have i just i hammer that down for a couple months so right now i'm running a bunch um but i drove i drove from san antonio to la 20 hours no back pain um wow i mean you got to practice what you preach i mean i i sit down in a deep squat i think that's crucial um i need to start hanging uh basic stuff like that yeah i think i'm in the position of a lot of listeners maybe where i always battle what i want to do versus what i should do or need to do I'm no different even though this is my field. And most of my accidents or injuries or problems or compensations or patterns

or whatever adjective we want to use here are from ego-driven wants. I just want to be strong. I'm kind of a big guy naturally. I'm not heavy right now. I used to be very heavy. But I'm kind of a big statured guy. So I'm like, shouldn't I just be strong? I have the opportunity to be a big guy naturally. I mean, I'm not heavy right now. I used to be very heavy. But I'm kind of a big statured guy. So I'm like, shouldn't I just be strong? I mean, I have the opportunity to be a big guy.

I should do that. And I like that. I like power lifting type stuff. I like to lift heavy weight. I love the feeling of lifting heavy. But if I'm honest with myself, the more strength I get from lifting heavy weights, the less athletic I feel sometimes. Say that one more time. Let's say the more I get into from lifting heavy weights, the less athletic I feel sometimes. Say that one more time.

Let's say the more I get into something like power lifting or even Olympic lifting, as I have done this before, like home in on this as what I do every day, like Bulgarian style, everyday kind of training. I get stronger and I can squat a lot, but I feel the most unathletic I've felt. I agree. And that's something I struggle with because I love that a lot more than I like to lay on the ground and do 90-90 rotations of my hip, to be honest.

But there's cost. There's cost to those things. And I'm getting to the point where you have a son, you have a child, and you're like, look, man, I love front squatting as heavy as I can. But is it really worth me looking like I'm 75 trying to pick my kid up? The trauma is there enough for me to say, I think I'm going to start to head towards things I need to do a little bit more. I do think strength is extremely important, though. It'll never be something I don't do. I'm always in the weight room in some capacity. But I say now like the things i'm not great at would be some areas of flexibility and also some cardiovascular has not been a big component of my life so i try to

work on a little bit more zone two stuff cardiovascular health you know i try to keep the heart rate right quite low and go for longer distances or longer rides or cycling um and then yeah i fit in my training but i don't want it to be so much that compensations and patterns start to kick in you know i can squat every now and then and i do maybe a tip is like unilateral work really kind of helps stop patterns from kind of fall you know kicking in a little bit so if you're doing some you know some uh step ups step up and over a box every step's a little bit. So if you're doing some step-ups, step up and over a box, every step's a little bit different.

You're going right leg up, left leg back, and then it's vice versa, and you're constantly kind of variable versus what's the goal of power? You said it yourself, like lock in, do not move. And that's what you want to squat 1,000 pounds, but it has an opportunity cost of locking you into your position.

And then you pay somebody like us to try to break you out of that position. So that's a long way of saying it. I'm sorry. But I am trying to work on trying to do more things that I do need to do versus what I really love to do. But I think you can do both, right? Over time, you can morph. And you can start. Maybe you didn't like running.

But as you do it, as you get better at stuff, all all of a sudden it's something you do like to do magic yeah opportunity costs like the most efficient things when i get into the gym i want to do i want to make sure i have hip extension like we were talking about that with andrew so like i'll check my atg split squat like can i get there what do i feel do i have hip extension and then thoracic rotation something we were talking about yesterday kind of twisting back and forth if i i kind of check in on those and see that's my barometer for how i'm feeling if i can do those i'm pretty good to go but yeah hip extension thoracic rotation arms up overhead if i can kind of do some of those then cardio is super important well yeah to give some pragmatic advice we got a good buddy a mutual friend who has something called the big four and a half oh yeah right so it's just like if you have what is it he's got if you need good big toe extension can your toe come all the

way up yeah it's like do you have good hip flexion or hip extension hip extension thoracic rotation dorsiflexion was one yeah sorry your ability to bend your ankle your knee over your your toe knees over toes, that ability. Your ability to have good toe mobility, great toe, big toe, first toe mobility. That's the half. Yeah. Yeah, that's the half, the little guy. It's important, but yeah.

Hip extension. Hip extension. The ability to pull your femur or your leg behind you without compensating, without overusing your back. Yeah. Thoracic rotation, the ability to rotate side to side. And that's a big one that people do miss a lot. Like even in CrossFit boxes, everything is very linear, it's very sagittal,

it's forward and backwards. You lose rotation is mainly in sports to be honest. So that's another bonus to pick up even a hobby of a sport. These are covered very well in that movement, great cookbook movement. I'm going to grab it. Grab it. Nick Askey, thank you for the big four and a half, three and a half.

It is four and a half. Four and a half? Three and a half, whatever. They're great. Dorsiflexion, hip extension, thoracic rotation. If you can check in on those, you're pretty good to go. Yeah. Yeah, I think I got a zero on all those.

That's your FMS score? I can move my toe and then that's about it. That's great. That's good. Yeah, about it you guys have heard of functional patterns? sure that one? yeah

when I've been watching and seeing a lot of the stuff that he's showing one aspect of it that I dislike this of anything that ends up being a little bit dogmatic is like, it's, uh, from the messaging standpoint, I see, I see some practitioners that are talking about

like certain things, like they talk about knees over toes guy and they say, Oh, the people who are doing this, they're going to need knee replacements in three or four years because of what they're doing. Um, I dislike the dogmatic thing, but I see how awesome it is because when I watch some of the things that they're having their individuals do and some of the things he's showing, it's like it's teaching individuals how to use the body as one full unit. Like I noticed that. So I see, oh, if someone has been sitting around all day long at work, rather than going to a gym and putting a barbell on their back or deadlifting or doing these single plane movements, they can get on something and learn how to move their whole body as a unit from their feet to their hips to their

upper body. I'm like, that is very fucking useful. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts about how individuals can see that and apply it for themselves and get some of the same benefits? Because I don't think that's the only thing an individual needs to do. But I think that there's a very big piece there that when I look at certain other ways that people lift or people put things forward, it's missed. It's definitely missed the connection. People tend to go, there's a ditch on both sides of the road, right?

Where you can get into the, I don't know if you've got there yet, the move net and like the Ido Portal guys. Yeah. Fantastic stuff. There's this movement and play, but it also becomes inaccessible to the normal person. They're like, what are these dudes doing in Barcelona and Capoeira?

They're like, I just, I don't, if I'm going to 24 Hour Fitness and I'm listening to this on the way to Gold's, man, those people look nuts to me. The naughty stuff looks like you're like, I don't know that I can – I don't know how I would get there.

It's unapproachable at times, although useful. But also the breaking down and only doing bicep curls forever, the isolation can also become, like I said, a ditch on both sides of the road. This is where the Greg Cook stuff really started to tie in the connections for me. How hip extension and thoracic rotation are related. How dorsiflexion and my knee are related. Deans over toes guy as well. The question being, should they do things like functional patterns or should they begin to like connect things through their body yeah and move in absolutely how that happens though like the

the communication of it in our field is not great right now yeah i'll be honest i don't think people are making it accessible to people i mean that's one of the things that maybe it doesn't sound like it today but like our instagram page or the stuff like that my goal is to help as many people as possible and i want to by the way please don't lose your train of thought but i want to say your instagram your tiktok is so fucking amazing because it's it's like that's why like when i saw it, I immediately followed you guys back is because like you guys like you just put all this free stuff out that people can just do right now and see benefit and they can self-assess and then they can go see a clinician. But there's so much there that people can do right now, which is why it's so valuable. Yeah, I try to we try to make it accessible. We try to put it to fun pop songs and edit it well so that you'll do it. We make it a challenge and we try to make it accessible. We try to put it to fun pop songs and edit it well so that you'll do it.

We make it a challenge. I want my aunts and my uncles and my cousins who maybe never were dark in the door of a gold gym to be like, my back is weird, but I don't really know what to try. I don't know where to start. But like, hey, this kind of looks, that's interesting. And I could do that on my couch. I could do that on the ground in my bedroom. And I'll just watch this reel over a couple times

and then I'll do it myself. And maybe that's an entryway. Maybe that gets them started along that path. But I think that is one of the things, that's one of the areas that Ben, knees over toes guy, excels at. He opens that door wide open for you. He's like, come on in.

The water's fine. Yeah, the sympathetic magic you talked about. He's inviting people in like, try this with me. 100%. You can do this. And here's a regression if you think that you can't. And here's my wife doing it while she's holding a baby, like making it super easy.

While she's pregnant. And then he's got some other athletes with him sometimes that are doing harder versions where people can aspire to like see that and go, shit, that would be awesome to be able to do that someday. Yeah. I mean, I listed that thing of books off, but when you're trying to present it to people, you need to bring, we were talking about this yesterday. There's a lot of potential out there.

My job is to bring it and hand it over to you. And the more compact those little reels, I'm pushing a lot of things in there. If clinicians are paying attention to what I'm sneaking in there, we're doing it to the most recent Justin Bieber song or whatever. God bless. But we're sneaking in internal rotation and adduction. We're sneaking in hamstrings and adduction we're sneaking in hamstrings and adductors um yeah so you need you need to make it accessible clinicians trainers make it accessible like that's that's naughty stuff is great it's hard to approach like it's

hard to learn anything about it without you know paying for it and stuff like that which is understandable make your money yeah sure yeah well yeah and i i don't want to because they're It's hard to learn anything about it without paying for it and stuff like that, which is understandable. It's understandable. Make your money. Sure. And I don't want to – because there are going to be some FP people listening. It's good stuff. It's great stuff. It's really good. And I don't think that people who are doing things that are valuable need to put everything out there for free for people because it makes sense.

If you have something that you believe is extremely valuable, well, you're going to – number one, you're going to monetize it and you're going to share aspects of it. And people that find it valuable are going to go towards it. But it's, you know, that's why like when I see some things, I'm like, there's a lot of really cool shit here. I want to try to understand it, but there's only a certain amount you can understand because only a certain amount is put out. So that's why I was just curious on your thoughts about it because it seems like very valuable stuff. It's ultimately really valuable. I don't know what – yeah. And the way – I think Nadi knows a lot of stuff. I just wish that he would serve it a little bit better on the plate. Maybe I'm not smart enough to get it in that sense, but I just wish, yeah, it was more edible. The consumer, the person who needs help,

they're all at different parts of the spectrum of course you know so if you need a higher level stuff you know some of the stuff we put on instagram is not like it's not going to make mark stronger you know at squatting not directly maybe indirectly because he's got a better mobility of his hip but it's not going to increase the five you know fibrillar density of his tissue or something. And John's really the face of our Instagram and does all the tough stuff for that. And what I admire about how he presents it is really that it's low risk for general public. And it's also, a lot of it is about awareness. It's like giving, it's like auto biofeedback.

So when people try this, like you lay on your back and you put your feet on the wall and you shift one knee up and you pull the other knee down, right? You're like laying on your back in a deep squat basically. And you shift one knee up towards the sky and you try to pull the other leg down, like jam it into your butt or into the floor. And then you do it on the other side. This seems so ridiculously simple. But if somebody is aware, they'll notice'll notice okay these are both really difficult and i thought this looks like a very easy task and i'm i'm struggling right now or one side feels great and the other one's not you just boom you have an idea immediately here we go some of these

movements are versions of like a lunge and or a version of a squat just with gravity taken away from it yeah a lot of these things are just designed to kind of take some of the variables out of the equation so that it's easier for the general public. For example, if I'm to stretch kind of like in that position that you're in, the spread eagle position with my butt up against the wall and my balls facing the wall, to be descriptive for everybody, I can stretch pretty good like that. I can actually let my legs fall and they can go out pretty good. And,

and, um, and I made a little bit of progress on that. I've been messing with it. I can also squat that way. Yeah. I can, you know,

put my feet flat and, and have my knees way, you know, quite a bit above my hips for my mobility. Exactly. It's way different than if I'm just standing there, I'm just standing there trying to do it because of gravity. It like too much tension for me at the time at this time uh for me to stretch and then i'm distracted so i don't know if anybody listening has had this happen

but like somebody might say hey try this stretch or try this movement this is going to be restorative of this area it's going to help you stretch this area, but something will hurt. And then I'm like, I can't even stretch like what we're talking about. So some of these things where you're going up against the wall or you're using the band, as I was showing you guys in the gym where you have this like regression, they're really amazing things because now you can concentrate on the actual movement rather than having pain be like a hindrance towards the thing that you're trying to do which can be immensely frustrating yeah i mean you have to like almost imbibe that stew mcgill like don't aggravate it we need to put you in a position where you don't aggravate we have a chance to succeed like set your people up to succeed and that's what some of these they

look like weird positions there's there's a block under knee. You're laying on your side. We use the wall. We use the ground to put you in a position to win. Yeah, we try to be as inclusive as possible in these posts. So that's why you don't see a lot of, like myself and John are probably using a lot of implements or weights or barbells or sleds and stuff, but you don't see it a lot on the Instagram because it's quite exclusive, at least in our following, where a lot of them don't have that ability.

So it's inclusive because we usually do it at your house. Maybe you have a wall, and we can get feedback about that. Like, well, I'm going to make my wall dirty and my wife will be mad at me. Come on. At some point. The wall's dirty. It's okay.

And you just want these exercises to be doable. They'll want to do them. So you show something like, maybe you can pull this up, Andrew, but there's a pigeon stretch. It takes a little bit of effort to do a pigeon stretch. But if you show somebody a wall pigeon stretch, basically where you're laying on your back

and you put your feet on the wall, cross one ankle over the other knee. Let me know if you guys see it. Just on Google. Just type in a wall pigeon. I can find that. And so basically what you're going to do is put your feet on the wall, lay on your back, cross one foot over the other knee.

I see. And you want to be so close to the wall that you actually have to lift your butt up to cross your leg over. Oh. So then you just let gravity do all the work. Yeah. Somebody that might have a hard time kind of crossing their legs as they're sitting would probably have a way easier time managing that because you could be further or closer

to the wall and manage whatever mobility you got for sure yeah i mean do you want to be basically shitting bricks the whole time while you're trying to get in you know 30 seconds of this pigeon or is it really helpful to just lay in that position without a lot of effort for nine minutes eight minutes nine minutes ten minutes because it's really no cost yeah there you go so yeah she's pretty far away from the wall but as the closer that you get to the wall the more your knee gets above like your hip crease basically we could say and so you get to sit there just kind of passively there she's moving up you go she's moving up and if you get close if your butt gets close enough to the wall you'll have to lift your butt in the air to cross your leg over so in that case when she tries to go back down she actually her butt won't touch the ground but gravity does all the work for you so you these

things that are like kind of self-limiting these things that are that allow people to like get in these positions for a long time are it's really really helpful. And John talk about, John and I talk about this a lot, the disconnect between rehab and therapy, the amount of volume we expect to create change in people or our field does versus what we know takes effort to create change in people. Right. So for example, you guys know, or I used to work at GNC and you, you know, the kid comes in, he's like 16 years old. He's a hard gainer. And he's, and he's like, I can't get any weight. And you're like, what are you eating? And he's like, well, two eggs for breakfast. I have peanut butter jelly sandwich for lunch. And you're like, it takes so much effort or the woman who says, I don't want to get bulky.

And you, you laugh because you know how hard it is to actually get bulky. Like it takes a lot of effort. Like every 17 year old boy right now is trying to get biceps and they barely emerge from all their work and it's so the disconnect is between the effort it takes to create progress in a sense of let's say the gym and what therapy typically recommends like here's this white little band with two pounds of tension and you're going to do two sets of seven you know two times 15 or something you're going to expect this massive change i i think it's ridiculous like we need to put in inputs that actually create change so if you can be in that position you can stay there for 10 minutes the research kind of supports this idea

that that will have actual change structurally to the tissue versus 30 seconds of intense stretching. And it's the same thing if we talk about load or trying to strengthen the glute med for somebody who has a glute med tendinopathy or an issue. It's the same thing. We can't just apply a 30-second low weight thing and expect massive change in the tissue. And I think this is, you know, our field is not great at this sometimes. I think we underestimate the amount of stress that it takes to build tissue or to change tissue.

That's my main problem with back to the adjustments. Like how much of an input is a pop to your back for your back pain? It's going to take more. It's just going to take more. Yeah, Russell, Russell Buddy, he's been doing the wall stuff like we were just seeing all right so that's been it was pretty cool to see that and then see it here right now

yeah he's been already implementing that it makes a big difference yeah i was just gonna say if you guys don't know russell he's like you know he's someone who's a bit overweight so a little bit of movement is restricted but that's something that he's able to do that's why i'm mentioning like he's able to get into those positions. I want to ask y'all, so you've guys have, you guys have been looking a little, what I would think lower than the fitness industry into our kind of physical therapy,

functional movement world. You've guys seem to get an idea of it. What, what do you, where do you see the gaps? Where do I see the gaps as far as physical therapy, the stretching world, the stretching world, the rehabilitation world,

like what, what, what bugs them about it? What bugs you about like our world? Oddly enough, the funny thing is I was quite literally about to ask you the question as, as far as people in the bodybuilding and lifting community, where are they missing things as far as helping people out?

But the, the, what, what gets me so, I guess, interested in what you guys are doing, what individuals within the movement space or functional movement spaces, right? David Weck, FP, Gota. What gets me so pumped about that is because I haven't been as deep into the powerlifting side as Mark has, but I was up to 270. I was lifting some really good numbers. And even though that was the strongest I was, uh, the feeling that I had as far as an athlete, I didn't feel like I did when I played soccer in college or when I was

a kid, it didn't feel athletic. Um, I moved like a fucking, I was stiff as hell. And that, that didn't seem like something that I wanted to grow old with and then I started getting into BJJ and I started getting into more moving better um lifting less lifting less weight overall um and doing more athletic things and I was like god dang I feel I feel like you know poppy like I feel like I can move well and then as we've gotten deeper into this I realized that well no purely just lifting weights is not the antidote to helping people move better. Like it's, it is part of the puzzle because people need to be stronger, but just going deep down that end, like you see bodybuilders and powerlifters who are

older and they move like shit. Like I didn't want to be, you know? So it's like, how can we marry this aspect of becoming stronger, like literally becoming a stronger human being in these movements, but also being able to move well and having good functional patterns and functional movement. Right. So that's why like I, that's why all of this is so important because we're thinking about how are we going to be when we're 70, 60, 70, 80. If we keep doing the same shit and just keep lifting the same weights and the same patterns, we're not going to move that well in old age.

Right. I think what I saw with like CrossFit is like it ends up being like a little bit of like an equalizer. You know, like if we're going to, okay, we have a bench, we have a squat, we have a deadlift. We have all some of these different movements that may be utilized in some CrossFit workouts. Not maybe so much a bench, but a squat or a deadlift we have all some of these different movements that may be utilized in some crossfit workouts not maybe so much a bench but a squat or a deadlift um but then they're also rope climbing and running a mile and doing all these various things so now because so there's so many inputs who the hell knows who's going to be good at that and you saw like a lot of people just at least trying it and investigating it and what I loved about that was it put more barbells in people's hands.

Maybe some more people got hurt than otherwise would have, but you are eventually going to run into pain and weakness being a problem for you no matter what you do. You can't completely avoid it. Everyone's going to be dealt the card at some point in their life that you are not strong enough to get up off the couch or you're not strong enough to do whatever it is that you're trying to do and so i think there's not necessarily a problem with the people that are promoting and putting stuff forward

of stretching or the people that were promoting things like crossfit and stuff i think they're they're kind of nice in a way because they lend themselves to more people. I've been talking about squats and deadlifts and stuff like that for many, many years, and no one really cares. And people started to care a little bit more, and then now it's kind of fallen. It's fallen back out of grace a little bit, but it'll make a strong comeback at some point. For sure. Patrick and some of these other people, Ben Patrick, although he's in tremendous shape, he looks to have a more achievable body than some of the bodybuilders, powerlifters that are performance enhanced, that are huge and jacked and lifting all these crazy weights. So I actually think that it's a healthy thing because the person that you get in the door

who's excited about like, hey, look at how far i can move on this atg split squat yeah which in my opinion i'm just like that is fucking stupid that is lame it brings it brings someone through the door yeah that's in a gym yeah and that person hopefully gets into like kettlebell swings and hopefully they kind of look around and they say, you know what? I'm a little skinnier than I would like. I would like to lift a little heavier, not only feel good in these stretches that I'm already good at from just who knows why, but also be proficient at lifting heavier weights, which it just takes time. It takes a long time.

So I think it's all encouragement. I think in the end it's all very positive. But in the interim, we got guys with ponytails running around stretching all over the place. But I think it's still a really good positive thing. Guys with ponytails stretching all over the place. You're not wrong. You're not wrong at all.

I totally agree. Yeah. So how do we make that more accessible? How do we make that more accessible for people? Like, are you just happy that they're in the door and then just let them get rolling? Yeah, it's like church. Yeah. Like, you rely it's like church. Yeah. Like you rely on the whole time.

Yeah. You know, now you want, now it's like a, now you got to start to give them the whole story. Yeah. You know, we need to lift weights. We need to. Yeah. So for you guys, I think it would be a story of like teaching people about how to lift a little bit. Yeah, I agree.

Like we're showing you stretching, we're showing you mobility stuff. But the other aspect of it, if you want to avoid this stuff is you got to squat. You got to deadlift. My dad was in the hospital years ago for like 60, 70 days or so. Almost died a bunch of different times. And the first thing that they showed him, he just had all these complications, had surgery after surgery. He was bedridden for a long time, lost a significant amount of weight, lost all of his strength. And the first thing they started showing him was like basically like a deadlift style movement.

He had like a walker in front of him and he would just kind of like go like this. And I was like, you're deadlifting. I'm like, I've been telling you about this forever. And then the next day he's like doing these like knee bends. And then progressively over time he's like walking and then he's doing deeper squats and then he's doing more deadlifts and so i think you know we're all going to be faced with some situation uh in our life where we are not healthy or not as healthy as we want to be and if you're strong going into that and or and or you can move better and or move faster the likelihood you'll be able to come out the other

side better is probably higher or the likelihood you'll be able to delay all that longer is probably higher i mean the benefits are the benefits in the past like when we lived in the bush right are kind of more obvious like living in the bush in multiple ways uh are kind of obvious but now like but even now in modern times we still know that if you fall and you break your hip you're like 50 likely as an as an elderly person you're likely to 50 are likely to die within a year after that or we know that sarcopenia which is too little muscle mass is like the top indicator of mortality is coming soon if you have sarcopenia so i mean i don't mean when i say i want to focus less on strength training it's just because i've focused on that. But I would never diminish, and it's probably up there with anything else.

I think stuff like Peter Attia talks about, which is what's the best thing you can do for almost all health factors is probably just to lose some weight if you're overweight. And then after that, it's things like strength fitness and it's and it's multifactorial right like so when you say i want to move well at 70 this is one your joint mobility is one aspect of health but there's what about community what about your sense of fulfillment or your own well-being but crossfit provides a community where people are high-fiving and hugging each other and then they go out for like afterwards. That's got to be a massive benefit. You know what I mean? That you don't get by preacher curling by yourself in the corner, which I'm more prone to do, to be honest.

But what I need to do is probably more community stuff. So sometimes what you're not doing is the thing you need to do. I also think what's lost, though, too, with a lot of us, too, that happens, is as you get really deep into strength training you're doing it for years you forget the ease and how useful it can be to just do body weight work like literally going down and doing push-ups because one thing is that create a lot of barriers like the barrier of having to go to the gym to start lifting some weight it's like once

you start doing that you don't think that there's benefits to doing some push-ups or literally doing air squats or literally doing weighted lun – like just lunges at home. You literally – if you have a kettlebell, you can get I would say maybe more than half of the benefits that you'd get of the gym if you're creative enough to do it. And like that's anybody in the general population including myself. I still do push-ups every freaking day because I know how useful they are. Right. So it's not, uh, not creating that big barrier of having to have a gym to do strength training, because if you can get better with your body weight, you're going to be 100 times better than you were if you weren't. Yeah. Yeah. This goes to the, sorry, I've been talking too much. The evolutionary mismatch, you know, this, this idea, sorry to say it,

but we didn't put a bar on our back and squat 1,000 pounds until very recently. This is a big mismatch, but it doesn't mean it's not extremely valuable. And I kind of know where your values lie because when I mentioned that story about that guy getting new knees, getting a knee replacement, you kind of looked at me like, I'm not sure that's the best advice. But I was kind of suggesting it depends on where your values lie, where you want to spend your time and what it's worth to you to do something like that. I mentioned to Mark about John Paul, an Icelandic guy who died early. It's like, I'm pretty sure he doesn't regret, you know,

if you could ask him, he wouldn't regret what he chose to do. But that's the cost that you have to be on the top of the brain that you're willing to bear. And I would say what most people don't are not aware of that or not willing to, you know, they regret it later in life. That's kind of what we don't want to do. But if you know, man, the thing that you love most is powerlifting. I support that wholeheartedly, honestly, regardless of the health costs to some point, because who am I to say that your values are incorrect

so if you ask me if it's healthy that's a totally different question is it healthy you know that you run 50 miles a day probably not but if that's what gives your life meaning by all means Andrew take us on out of here buddy

absolutely thank you everybody for checking out today's episode we sincerely appreciate it please we have you guys plenty of stuff to talk about so drop us some comments down below and let us know what you guys think about today's conversation and subscribe if you guys are not subscribed already and follow the podcast at MB Power Project on Instagram

TikTok and Twitter my Instagram TikTok and Twitter is at I am Andrew Z and Seema where you at at Seema any on Instagram YouTube go At SeemaYinYing on Instagram. You too, go to the Discord. We have over 1100 members. That is in the description. At SeemaYinYing on TikTok and Twitter. Bobby, John, where do people find you guys?

We are Dr. John Spolsky and Bobby Riley on TheAnatomyOfTherapy.com The Anatomy of Therapy on Instagram. The Anatomy of Therapy on TikTok. We've got a Patreon. Yeah. The Patreon of The Anatomy of Therapy on TikTok. We've got a Patreon. Yeah. The Patreon of The Anatomy of Therapy.

Every week we do Stretch Club. We do a Q&A. You join Patreon. We will help you and give you the most. We give a lot of free content out there, but yeah. And the podcast too. You guys have a podcast, right? The Anatomy of Therapy podcast. It's called, subtitle, Rebuild Yourself. Okay. Come see me at Unbreakable in LA. Yeah. And do you guys do work digitally. Okay. Come see me at Unbreakable in LA.

Yeah. And do you guys do work digitally with people or is it just in clinic? Just in clinic. He works clinic. I might do that. I just, like I said, returned to the United States. So that is an option for me. We're considering that.

Okay. You got to find a house first, dude. Yeah. Got to get a bed. John Paul Sigmason, the guy that you were bringing up, he he has the famous quote of there is no reason to be alive if you can't do deadlift preach tell him that's unhealthy

but he's also no longer with us so scratch your head on that one but he did do a 942 pound deadlift a long time ago back before deadlifts were cool sumo or conventional I'm sure he cheated strength is never weak this week this is never a strength catch you guys later back before deadlifts were cool. That's a lot of deadlift. Sumo or conventional? I'm sure he cheated. Yeah. Whatever the case,

figures. That's a lot. Strength is never weak. This week, this is never a strength. Catch you guys later. Bye. Thanks for having us.