Mark Bell's Power Project - Why Modern Grapplers Are Ditching Traditional Methods to Succeed

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

In episode 1121 of Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast, hosts Mark Bell, Nsima Inyang, and Andrew Zaragoza talk with Greg Souders and Deandre Corbe about the ecological approach to jiu jitsu and why modern grapplers should move beyond traditional methods to succeed. They explore smarter training strategies, adapting to real competition, and focusing on growth and creativity in practice. Follow Deandre on IG: https://www.instagram.com/deandre_corbe/ Follow Greg on IG: https://www.instagram.com/gdsouders/   Official Power Project Website: https://powerproject.live Join The Power Project Discord: https://discord.gg/yYzthQX5qN Subscribe to the Power Project Clips Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC5Df31rlDXm0EJAcKsq1SUw   Special perks for our listeners below!   🥜 Protect Your Nuts With Organic Underwear 🥜 ➢https://nadsunder.com/ Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 15% off your order!   🍆  Natural Sexual Performance Booster 🍆 ➢https://usejoymode.com/discount/POWERPROJECT Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!   🚨 The Best Red Light Therapy Devices and Blue Blocking Glasses On The Market! 😎 ➢https://emr-tek.com/ Use code: POWERPROJECT to save 20% off your order!   👟 BEST LOOKING AND FUNCTIONING BAREFOOT SHOES 🦶 ➢https://vivobarefoot.com/powerproject   🥩 HIGH QUALITY PROTEIN! 🍖 ➢ https://goodlifeproteins.com/ Code POWER to save 20% off site wide, or code POWERPROJECT to save an additional 5% off your Build a Box Subscription!   🩸 Get your BLOODWORK Done! 🩸 ➢ https://marekhealth.com/PowerProject to receive 10% off our Panel, Check Up Panel or any custom panel, and use code POWERPROJECT for 10% off any lab!   Sleep Better and TAPE YOUR MOUTH (Comfortable Mouth Tape) 🤐 ➢ https://hostagetape.com/powerproject to receive a year supply of Hostage Tape and Nose Strips for less than $1 a night!   🥶 The Best Cold Plunge Money Can Buy 🥶 ➢ https://thecoldplunge.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save $150!!   Self Explanatory 🍆 ➢ Enlarging Pumps (This really works): https://bit.ly/powerproject1 Pumps explained:      ➢ https://withinyoubrand.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off supplements! ➢ https://markbellslingshot.com/ Code POWERPROJECT to save 15% off all gear and apparel!   Follow Mark Bell's Power Project Podcast ➢ https://www.PowerProject.live ➢ https://lnk.to/PowerProjectPodcast ➢ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/markbellspowerproject ➢ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/markbellspowerproject   FOLLOW Mark Bell ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marksmellybell ➢https://www.tiktok.com/@marksmellybell ➢ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MarkBellSuperTraining ➢ Twitter: https://twitter.com/marksmellybell   Follow Nsima Inyang ➢ Become a Stronger Human - https://thestrongerhuman.store ➢ UNTAPPED Program - https://shor.by/JoinUNTAPPED ➢YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/NsimaInyang ➢Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nsimainyang/?hl=en ➢TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@nsimayinyang?lang=en   Follow Andrew Zaragoza ➢ Podcast Courses, Free Guides: https://pursuepodcasting.com/iamandrewz ➢ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamandrewz/   Chapters: 0:00 Importance of Communication and Adaptability 1:51 Benefits of an Athlete-Centered Approach 5:49 Engaging Athletes with Modern Coaching 7:31 Embracing New Training Methods 11:12 Live Competition Experience vs. Traditional Training 13:15 Innovating for Better Training Results 16:48 Adapting Coaching for Effective Learning 18:34 Shifting Perspectives for Enhanced Practice 22:03 Rethinking Traditional Jiu-Jitsu Fundamentals 23:53 Refining Techniques for Better Efficiency 26:57 Tailoring Coaching to Individual Needs 28:31 Using the Constraint SL Approach for Problem-Solving 31:40 Training with Like-Minded Grapplers 33:23 Focusing on Respect and Growth 36:15 Personal Growth Over External Validation 37:57 Athlete Preparation vs. Public Perceptions 41:17 Emotionally Adapting for Performance Improvement 42:47 Providing Emotional Support Under Stress 46:05 Consistent Training Over Traditional Methods 47:52 Adapting Traditional Methods for Modern Success 51:01 Varied Movements for Skill Development 52:29 Adaptive Training for Performance and Injury Prevention 55:44 Importance of Engagement and Focus 57:22 Playfulness for Better Training Results 1:01:04 Creativity and Fun in Training 1:02:38 Effective Techniques Over Aesthetic Traditions 1:05:52 Maintaining Conditions Over Specific Responses 1:07:26 Choosing Practical Over Outdated Methods 1:11:00 Educating Athletes Over Using Performance Enhancers 1:12:39 Skill and Conditioning for Modern Grapplers 1:16:09 Effective Strength Training and Conditioning 1:17:58 Integrating Health and Performance 1:21:23 Using Data-Driven Metrics to Manage Fatigue 1:23:06 Adapting Training to Protect Health and Enhance Performance 1:26:15 Incorporating Training Variability for Better Results 1:27:46 Building an Aerobic Base for Efficiency and Recovery 1:31:14 Staying Calm and Focused Under Pressure 1:32:52 Strategic Planning for Optimal Training and Recovery

If you say you're going to do this thing, can you do this thing you say you're going to do? It's not just a discussion how it might happen. How it actually happens. If I tell you to grab that guy's feet and try to go around them and they're resisting you, can you actually do it? The guard pass, for example, right? I would approach a guarded player and say, all right, I want to do this move, this move, this move. It doesn't work, I'm going to do this move. We sometimes don't have a lot of creativity to think past our own experiences. One of the most destructive sentences that blocks progress is,

it's always been done that. As opposed to like remembering step by step, the X-pass or the leg drag pass or the knee cut pass, any of the like that. What were the invariant things that never changed amongst those things? And that's what our practice focuses on. If I focus on those things, I'm able to solve grappling problems. The typical path that you always go down,

you can create a bunch of things from that versus just doing that. If we train someone a specific grip with a specific action, we're actually blinding them to the possibility. If you guys have been enjoying the content we've been bringing here on The Power Project, consider leaving us a review on Spotify and Apple. We had podcasts with people from Functional Patterns to Ben Patrick to Jack Cruz, who roasted us on air, but we did that for you,

to bring you some of the best information in fitness. We're learning along with you and leaving a review with how you dig the podcast is really gonna be something that helps the podcast move forward. So if you can, leave us a review there and enjoy the rest of the show. What do you guys got going on over here? What you mean?

Since last time you were here, what you got going on? Man, we got him to ADCC, won West Coast trials. Little bit more proof of concept. Well, in a sense. Of what you're doing, yeah. Well, you know, it's a long history to it, but he decided to take on the burden to try to use my philosophies and ideas to try to make it,

and he made them his own. So yeah, you know, it says more about him than it does about me, you know, so. What do you think kind of makes a good marriage when it comes to like a coach and an athlete? Communication. Like if we both care about each other and care about where we're going,

and we talk along the way, we're more likely to get there and accomplish the thing we set out to do. If we can't communicate, if we're not on the same path, going towards the same goal, I think it could really be deleterious to our relationship. I think aligning with that same mission, when I first got to Standard,

it was like I really wanted to take grappling as far as I could. And I didn't know anything about their approach or anything like that, but I could, you know. And I didn't know anything about the approach or anything like that, but you know, I started training with him. I realized like, you know, my coach, Greg, he's like, he really cared about the development of first guys, and that's what really got me into like,

hey, let me dive into this approach a little bit more. Let me be an athlete, let me buy into this, and like really practice genuinely, you know? And you were a black belt when you got the standard, right? Absolutely. Yeah, I was a black belt. I think I was already training. I was like 12 years already. Yeah, I was, but mainly in the Gi.

Okay. Yeah. So when I first got there, I was, and I was talking to Greg, I was picking Greg's ear and I was like, he was doing it totally different from when I was used to, you know? I came from like the traditional approach, what typical Jiu-Jitsu practitioners are exposed to. Warm up, do a couple of drills, and do like five open rounds at the end of the practice.

And I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what Jiu-Jitsu was at the time. I'm blackball already. And what I noticed is like, man, this practice is really opening my eyes to like what grappling actually could be. And not to mention, a lot of his guys were piecing me up when I first got there. Yeah. See, these guys were like blue belts and purple belts. It's like, what's going on here? And then I started just kind of like picking his ear and then reading some of the things he was reading and then from there just, you know, did what an athlete should do,

listen to their coach and see where it takes them. What made you interested in the first place? Like what caught your attention? Uh, the practice, the first thing was the practice was more fun. Like it was all live. It was all live. You know, if you guys ever, you know, look into the constraint slide approach, there's live goes, sparring, right? But you had different wind conditions, different ways to play the game. And I was like, the thing about it was it was always fun, right?

There was no like passive drilling or anything like that. And I felt like I was, like I would see the problem solving occur real time. Maybe like a little less right and wrong. Right, right, right. Yeah, more effective, you know what I mean? Because it's like, if you say you're gonna do this thing, can you do this thing you say you're gonna do?

It's not just a discussion how it might happen. How is it actually happening? If I tell you to grab that guy's feet and try to go around them them and they're resisting you, can you actually do it? So you get to see the effect of your actions right away. And I think it links the athlete with their environment. And I think that he responded incredibly well to that.

Like the online problem solving while you're, because it's live, right? It's a live resisting body. It's like that online problem solving was a big thing that I really enjoyed in this during with the practice structure. I don't know if you can remember back to kind of when you first started over there at Standard versus like kind of how you approach roles now.

I know you have much more skill, but it's like just four more years, right? What do you think was different with how you head into a role and like your intention with what you're going to do versus now the way you head into the roles, your reactions and intentions? So one of the things like in the traditional approach, you have this like this encyclopedia of moves that you're trying to apply to somebody. And that was something that I had to try to get away from, you know, It's like when you're... Some of the things like I would...

It's like a guard pass, for example, right? I would approach guarded players like, all right, I want to do this move, this move. If this move doesn't work, I'm going to do this move. But really, it's like we're really just trying to solve some invariant problem that's always occurring in the guard. And that's how I approach now, like,, you know what things don't change right and focus on maintaining those conditions as opposed to You know trying to pull out a move from the moves. I remember, you know, I'm saying

How'd you get Deandre to like buy in was it just pairing them up with? Appropriate people kind of thing. Well, so he'll never talk about himself, so I'll do it. So he already came with a deep well of capacity. It was a gift for me as a coach. He's a completely dedicated and committed person to absolutely everything he does. And I'm not saying that because he's standing here. Like anyone who knows the man even before me

would tell you the same thing. And I think he approaches everything with that attitude. So when he met me, he took me on as I am. He took my program on as I am. And he's like, okay, this feels good. I'm gonna give it a shot. Because we had a conversation. I said, you know, do you like it here?

Do you like what we're doing? I mean, if you were my student, would you feel comfortable doing things differently to try a new idea? And he said, yeah, sure, for sure. And I think it was interesting too because- Can we back up on that just for a second? Where did you learn that?

Learn what? Learn asking him a question like that. Because that's rare, people don't usually do that. You started off with the most fundamental thing, hey, are you open to trying some new, different stuff? A coach must care more about his athlete than he does himself. It's not about me, it's about us.

And so I need to know who I'm speaking to and what their drives are, what their interests are, who they are. So I start with a question so I can see who's speaking to me. I don't know where I learned that from. I just, I value communication. So I just started with that, you know?

And what was interesting too is he came with, like I said, a deep well for capacity. He's an athlete, he's physical, he's strong, he's durable, he's great, right? So when he first started interacting with my athletes, he could beat them with just physicality, but then he was losing like basic stuff, you know, even to like lower belts, so to speak.

And so I think that was pretty convincing for him because he realized, oh yeah, man, I'm a black belt, I'm strong, I'm fast, I know what's going on, but there's something here that I might need to understand more of and he just took it on as a project and now you see him now, you know? I mean for me, it was like, if it even gave, I didn't immediately buy into what people call the ecological approach and I don't think we ever said that. Somebody put that on the internet, but like, but one of the things like if it gave…

If it meant that I had a chance to get better, why not do it? That was the thing. I was really open to doing something like that. Because let's say, you know, three months, four months, six months, a year down the road, that I didn't get better. I could just go back the old way, right? But that wasn't the case. You know, I started really like understanding, grappling more deeply. And I was like, all right, this is pretty cool. I'm going to keep doing this and I should probably listen to my coach, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Why do you think that so many people in Jiu-Jitsu, especially those who are like experienced and people who instruct Jiu-Jitsu, why are they so triggered when they hear about stuff like this? Because I mean, you would expect that, you know, there's always a want to improve, right? So shouldn't we kind of be open to different ideas when it comes to improving on a martial art? Yeah, I mean, I think it's how we view challenge, right?

Some, a lot of these high-low grapplers are using this like technical explanation, this process oriented understanding is way to make money. Or they've attached, and or because of that, they attach their identity to it. So you're not just attacking an idea, you're attacking their identity. Like if you're a guy who's got six DVDs on BJ Fanatics

and you realize that your long winded bullshit explanation over eight hours does nothing to improve somebody's skill and someone tells it to you, you can't separate what they're saying from who you think you are. And so you're like, oh no, this guy's a fucking asshole. Always say that to me. That could be one of the reasons.

Or people are just in general resistant to change. I'm not sure. Yeah, I mean, I think people just don't like Greg. That's probably it too. Fuck me, right? Let me ask you this on top of that. Because like, okay, the constraints led approach is quite different because like,

it's not like you give an example of this is the way a movement is done. Drill it, do it. You have a constraint. You let the individual figure out their own expression of how to get to that end point. Couldn't there be like, I would actually assume that grapplers

who have a lot of experience like you did when you came into this, you had a well to kind of pull from when you were working within the constraints, which allowed you to expand your knowledge of what you were doing because there was more self-expression, there was more, I guess, nuanced understanding

for you to create things, right? So wouldn't there be a strength in both? Well, it's not that there's not a both. And so when we say something like drilling or technique or the CLA, we're actually making claims about the nature of reality. How do the things we do affect future things that we do? So when we say we drill, we say that static motion repeated

over and over again has an effect on skill acquisition. When we say putting somebody in the environment, letting them play, the constraints present have an effect on a skill acquisition. When we say putting somebody in the environment, letting them play, the constraints present have an effect on a skill acquisition. So we're actually saying different things about the nature of how learning occurs. So there is no marriage. And we say previous capacity,

what are we really talking about? Do we use previous knowledge as a way to acquire a new skill or is it just the experience of moving our bodies that we bring with us? Bigger bones, stronger tendons, more drive to fight. So there's a lot of questions when you ask that question. It's not as simple as that. Okay.

I think one of the things I had, like you're saying I had previous experiences, like I think people want to say it was like the previous drilling I did, but you have to also not ignore the fact that my brother and I came up and we were competing for 10 years already. Like touching live bodies, we were some high level guys.

We were in the Gi, definitely not in no Gi, but like we had experience competing. And I think that makes a big difference, you know. I was actually talking to one of my friends and he was like, a lot of the argument between the traditional approach and the ecological approach we were talking about at our practice is like, it's more of a language thing. The people are not agreeing with the language. But I made a point where everybody that's in at that elite level of grappling, there's one thing for sure that they always did.

They've competed. They competed for like experience does not change like especially at that high, you know, high stress levels of competition that that produces like skill. And essentially what we're doing in our with the approach can we're allowed where we're spending more time expressing skill in a live environment. And I think that may play like a big lever to pull in acquiring that skill or developing that skill. You guys are bringing up some really interesting stuff.

It makes me think a little bit about what I can compare it to, which is strength training. And strength is a skill. Takes a long time normally for people to build up skill. But there's a lot of reckless years of experience. Someone could be like, oh, well, this guy, took him 15 years to squat a thousand pounds. Well, that ain't the case anymore. There's guys that are 23 years old

that are squatting a thousand pounds and just a pair of knee wraps. So a lot of disastrous things have happened over the years to powerlifters. People got smart to it. They started figuring things out in a different way. There's different ways to train. There's not really one way to train still,

but there's better ways of training. And I think people are starting to find those. And that's why we're seeing, as some people say, oh, it's the deadlift bars, they bend more and so on, but we're seeing like a crazy amount of 900 pound deadlifts. And we're just seeing the strength even on the bench press and the squat. And it's not just, it's not just the barbell, like something else is happening. And again, you know, I could sit here and say, I had

to work this hard to like do, you know, do this this way. And I need, I could also think because that was my history and that was my experience, my background, I might think that someone else has to do that same type of work and they just don't. And the same thing happens with wealth nowadays. People don't have to work the same way that they did. You have an idea, you have an invention, you have a product, put it on the internet.

I mean, it's not always that easy, but that's way different than a manual labor job and then trying to figure out a way to work your way up into that company to become a manager and then become the GM. And then maybe you own the place or something like that. So I think that all we can sometimes think of, we sometimes don't have a lot of creativity to think past our own experiences.

For sure. I mean, I think one of the, I read this somewhere that one of the most destructive sentences that blocks progress is, it's always been done that way. So I think we don't ever start with that. We have a historical record that certain things that we have done led to certain outcomes, but we can look back at that record and ask ourselves, if we were to take certain things out and put new things in for the future,

what gives us the biggest bang for our buck? What is always happening? And how do those happenings affect future states? If we can talk about that honestly and debate about it, and we can start implementing those things, I think we get better results in the future. And I think that's what we see happening with in any field, really.

Could you imagine if everybody had to go through the same thing that you had to, there'll be no advancement in the, in the, in the, whatever field you're talking about, you know? And I think it's important for like, you know, that next generation to get that, the newer generation right to the point where they were, where they left off so they could start having a platform to just grow the community or whatever field that we're referring to, you know? Yeah, it's that NPC mentality that I talked about, right? Cause we brought this up when it came with like people not wanting to go outside of what

science says, right? Like the studies say this, so that's the end all be all. And so I just said, it's like creates a NPC mentality where you just do what like the program tells you to do. He and I were talking about this this morning, like you can read a bunch of different papers and get the different conclusions. So science says a lot. So I think people who are trying to use what's known

have to still be open to experimentation. One of the researchers I always attribute this to, Carl Newell, I've said it a lot. He said, we need to basically teach what is known, but leave room for what is unknown. And so I try to take that seriously. Yeah, read all the shit, read all the papers, get all the facts, but what's happening in front of you?

You know what I mean? Sometimes they're competing. So with that in mind, then where can a coach start to explore some of this stuff? Because like, I remember at the seminar, somebody was like, hey, tell me your secrets. That was freaking hilarious. And you're like, look, you can't just like have Xs and Os

and create your own games. Like you gotta have, it's all like, even though you don't like the word situational, but it is like a situational thing. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So like, yeah, where does a coach begin to explore some of this approach? I think first there's a couple of things

that have to sort of come together. And I can only use my experience to talk on this. So one, I wanted to be a good coach. What does a good coach do? He produces effect and change in his athlete. Okay, so how do I do that? I didn't know how to do it. Yeah, I'd grappled for 10 years when I opened my own school,

but I had never coached. So research what coaching is, what's learning, what's behavior, what's going on. That's the first step. Second, you need a room, you need a platform. I was lucky enough to have guys to come in every day, to learn under me and I was able to use them and experiment as I was learning to how to be a coach.

Because it's relational, right? So like, as I try things, my athletes do things, they communicate back and then we have this like relationship going on. And that gives me a lot of room to experiment with these ideas. Like I taught 21 classes a week for 10 years, you know what I mean?

And I was constantly reading and updating and changing. And then lucky enough, I got him and everything kind of just went together. So all that babbling is to say, do the reading, pick a direction you wanna go in, have something to apply it to, keep doing it until you figure it out. There's no magic.

And then Deandre, when you came from a traditional school, like what part was like the most annoying of it all? Like especially, and I do want to ask you about no gi and with the gi, but specifically with this in mind, from traditional to this approach, like what was the aspect of it where you're like, alright, this is fucking stupid. Like this isn't gonna work. Well, I mean when I got to standard, you know, I was already a black belt and one of the most annoying things, personally, at least, was like, I felt like I needed to unlearn everything I did prior.

I felt like it was wasted, right? But you know, when I was first going to Standard, I would, this is a tangent, but I would travel there for like three hours. I was living three hours away. Can you get closer to the mic? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like living three hours away and one of the things was like on that car ride, I just had time just to think and reflect on that.

And like, so I'm like thinking like, oh man, this last 10 years was wasted, but it wasn't. It wasn't wasted, you know. It's just, I just had a, what this approach really did was like change my perspective on practice and then in turn change my perspective on competing and change my perspective on how to be an athlete in a room. Like one of the things was like you had your list of moves in the traditional approach and it's like, I know that I've had success prior to training at standard. I know I've had success with these moves before.

One of the things that helped me bridge that gap between coming from the traditional approach and going to like the constraints led approach or the ecological approach was like when I looked at all those moves that were successful in the past, I started looking at what were the things that never changed about those moves, the invariant things about those moves. And now with this practice, with this approach, I was able to like, that's what I focus on now as opposed to like remembering step by step, the X pass or the leg drag pass or the knee cut pass, any of the like that. What were the invariant things that never changed amongst those things?

And that's what our practice focuses on, you know? And now it doesn't matter what move I do, it's just if I focus on those things, I'm able to solve grappling problems. So let me ask you this, man, because you guys mentioned it's kind of like a different language. So when you're watching Jiu Jitsu,

when you're explaining things, you don't look at it through the, oh, like that's a De La Hiva. You don't necessarily look at things that way. No, I mean, well, he and I talk a lot about this. And so as I was training and coaching him, I was actually watching him and learning from him. So again, it was a reciprocal relationship.

And so we talked about language a lot. And so first what I try to understand is how can we talk about the thing without referring to the thing? So how can I talk about reverse daily heva without calling it that? So what that forced me to do is look at what was actually going on.

And so that's where we start, but it doesn't mean we don't say reverse daily heva because both of us know that if I take one of my hooks, move it across the center line, hook it onto that leg, we can call that reverse daily heva. But we also know the condition of creating it and the function that comes from that condition. And that's what we look at when we watch grappling.

And that's what we discuss, you know what I mean? Oh man, that was a great hook. He was able to really pull them forward really well. And so reverse daily Hiva, fine. But we understand it before it was called that. We understand the origin of its emergence. Like why- Like the raw ingredients.

Yeah, exactly right. The thing about like, if you've got someone that didn't know Jiu-Jitsu at all and you told them reverse De La Hiva They'll look at you like, huh? Are you speaking a different? You're literally speaking a different language you know, but if you told them about a hook that and a hook with Attaches to something to create an effect, you know, that language is a little easier to coach as opposed to in effect, you know, that language is a little easier to coach as opposed to do your coach telling you do a reverse delahiva, you know, or do a no X pass, bare and below, you know, 9000 whatever. It's kind of reminds me like the first principles idea that you hear from like Musk, like finding

the raw ingredients for these things and figuring out how to make these things work rather than like the whole, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was just talking to you at the end of the day, like here's what's fascinating. The gun was invented before the first law of thermodynamics. Isn't that interesting? Like we created, we used like the way energy changes over time to create a deadly projectile,

but we didn't understand why it worked. We knew mechanically how a gun works, we created it, but we didn't know why it worked. We knew mechanically how a gun works, because we created it, but we didn't know fundamentally how a gun works. Fundamentals are advanced ideas. They're not basic. We reach fundamentals later on, because reasoning is ad hoc. The world exists first, then we describe it later.

So Jujitsu is no different. It's just that, and I don't mean to say this is an arrogant thing, but we're talking to untrained thinkers, myself included, okay? But I go through the trouble of trying. No, because if I say that shit, people are like, Greg Sanders is self-aggrandizing asshole. No, man, I read fucking 50 books a year, you know?

Fuck. That's all I'm saying. He doesn't even have any kratom in him right now. No, no. Let's get some kratom. Those confrontation stories are making sense. What you guys do, right? How frustrating is it when you put in a ton of effort just to understand the tiniest thing and you're just like,

hey, this is kind of like what level I'm operating on and they'd be like, yeah, fuck you, idiot. That's super annoying. But anyway, I'm operating on. And they'd be like, yeah, fuck you, idiot. That's super annoying. But anyway, I'm only saying is you had to be trained to try to think this way. It took effort to try to see the simplest thing. It took effort for me, because I had to do the same thing Dee did.

When I came from the traditional approach, which I did too, I mean, I came from a Lloyd-Irving and he was a high rep driller. Like that's what we did. And everything was symbolic, everything was named. And so I had to unlearn all that and I had to look back at the thing as it actually was before it was named.

And that took a lot of effort. So anyway, yes. So first principles. I think that using the word, we're using unlearning. Like we're trying, almost in the sense like we're trying to forget what we did before But I really think it's more of like when you change your practice a little your perspective changes a little bit Yeah, I think that's the more important more like refining right right you're not really forgetting

You're just like oh This is how this works and then you can find a more efficient way to get to that same move You just see the past a little differently, you know why that worked to get to that same move. You just see the past a little differently. You know, why that worked. Maybe wasn't the... Why that worked in the past wasn't maybe the way I thought it worked. Does that make sense?

And then like, and when you change that perspective a little bit, say, oh, it still aligns with what's going on now. It's just, I have a different language to describe it. I have a different viewpoint to look at it from, you know. I think one of the really cool things about this though is if anybody, if any grappler does listen, you can think of like your game and what you typically do. And the thing is, is if you understand not just the specific path, the ABC path of which you do it, but all those raw ingredients, like this hook here, this grip here, you understand the nuances of those. You can then create a bunch of different things

rather than like collar sleeve sweep. The typical path that you always go down, you can create a bunch of things from that versus just doing that. For sure. No, absolutely. And that ends the point, right? There's a set of conditions that create a set of effects.

And I say set because I don't know exactly what the amount is. But if we train someone a specific grip with a specific action, we're actually blinding them to the possibility. So actually it's funny, I had a really great conversation with John Danner a few times, I've talked to him quite a bunch

over the years. We had a 45 minute conversation at trials. And of course I would never say anything that he said because again, that was between he and I, but he did make a point and he said something like, he's trying to do the same thing I do. He's trying to affect people's intention and attention. Those are my words, not his.

And he talked about getting people to look at things and see things. But something that he didn't realize when saying that is what he was actually doing is blinding people to other things. And his example was, if I tell you to look for an orange car and you're looking up orange cars, like, did you see the purple one?

No, because you were constrained, so I told you to look for an orange one. But he thought that was helpful. And I was like, well, it's not helpful because if you say look at the orange car, that's all you'll ever look for. But if I give you a way to look at what's in front of you, that's not too specific,

that allows you to see a grander scope of what's going on, you have more to operate within. And that can lead to more robust learning over time. And so that's what we're trying to do with condition and effect, for example. Quick question on that. Do you think, I guess this might go back to something I referenced again before,

but look for the orange car, right? Okay. Do you think that there's a benefit in looking for the orange car, but then broadening your view to everything else? Depends on why. Okay. So anytime we constrain something,

we have to understand what are we constraining it for? If we only have the specifics and we don't know what their utility is, we're having a hammer and treating everything like a nail. We can't do that. Because when we're talking about coaching, we're talking about dealing with individuals. True coaching only happens on a one-to-one level.

There's really no such thing as a general coach. We can try our best, but really it's the relationship a coach has with each one of his students. So I think if we get too specific in our understanding, we sort of pigeonhole ourselves. We can't operate amongst a bunch of different, like the things I have to say to Dee

must be different than things I would say to you or the things I would say to you. So if I only have people look for orange cars, then I'm treating everyone like the same person. Anyway, I just, I don't know. But in terms of grappling, we're all, like if he was our coach, he's really trying to create the same effect

and within us, obviously how you're gonna take it versus how you're gonna take it versus how I'm gonna take it is gonna be totally different. How we're gonna come to those solutions are gonna be totally different. But he's still understanding that we are, in grappling, we're trying to create this effect, a specific effect, you know?

Yeah. And sorry, Mark, this is the last thing I'm gonna mention, but the massive strength in this though is like, every grappler does have their different biological negatives or positives. 100%. Some have crazy grips, some have really, really weak grips, some have certain things that hurt in their back

and this and that, and that'll make just doing certain positions, as we call them, kind weak grip. Some have certain things that hurt in their back and this and that, and that'll make just doing certain positions as we call them kind of difficult. But if there is an understanding of this is where we need to get, these are the constraints that you set up, each person can find out what their body is able to do to get from point A to point B successfully, which might look very different from me, you and you. For sure.

And I think the constraints that approach or looking at things through an ecological psychology slash dynamics perspective, gives us this freedom as coaches. Cause we are, if our perspective was happening changes, we give like a wider view. And so I think it helps us do exactly that. Can you explain your method a little bit

for some of the people that maybe didn't catch the first round when we podcasted with you? Well, my method is different, but what we use as a method to inform what I do is the constraints load approach. And it's just the idea that we use live resistance, so we have people grapple and we constrain it. Basically, which means we create focuses that limit options

so that they can search solution space, or they can search a small aspect of grappling and learn how to problem solve within that small aspect. Boxed up idea. For sure, we kind of like to shrink the search area, give people tasks and let them perform those as a way for them to create a deeper relationship between their actions and their effects.

And then by doing that over time at a high enough volume, at a high enough frequency and with other measures, they start to develop the ability to do those things they set out to do. A simple way I say is, something I say is we're able to do what we intend to do. So I set these intentions, let them play with it, and we guide it along as it goes.

And did you discover that through coaching? Well, I learned about it. So I was kind of how to coach is my first thing. Well, how do people learn and searching for different fields and different things? I wonder how many coaches have kind of even ever looked that up, like how to coach is my first thing. Well, how do people learn and searching for different fields in different things? I wonder how many coaches have kind of even ever looked that up, like how to coach. Well, I don't know.

I didn't know anything about it. So I figured that's where I would start, right? But yeah, it was in the literature. I just came across it and I saw this thing, ecological psychology, ecological dynamics, what the hell is this? And it was based on this idea of self-organization. And that was very interesting to me.

I'd never heard anything like that before. So I started reading it, reading about it, reading a bunch of white papers I didn't understand. And it was just so interesting. I was like, I'm gonna see if I can apply this crap. And then I just started trying it. And the effects were almost immediate within a few weeks of just removing some of the waste

that I thought was in practice. I was like, man, students are performing better almost immediately. And I was like, this is interesting. So I just kept going with it. And now I know why you said that you needed to like have a great knowledge of jujitsu to read that and then understand how it could be applied.

Because if you read that first before ever learning jujitsu you wouldn't know where to apply it to. Yeah, he and I were just talking about this. He was like one of the easiest, cause I introduced the ideas to him and he said the easiest way for him to digest some of that difficult material was to use his previous experience in jujitsu.

It made like, because when you read the stuff, it was like in this button pressing task, in this volleyball task, what the fuck do we know about button pressing and volleyball? Nothing. So one of the things I did was like when I started training with Greg was,

I wanted to question everything he was doing, but I didn't have like a solid foundation to question from. So let me start, let me try to read some of this stuff. Some of those stuff was talking about like button pressing tasks, like volleyball, things I don't have any knowledge for. So what I would do as I was reading some of these books, like how I would try to find the analog to grappling While I was reading and made me one

Keep the book open and then two is like I started I started understanding the material through what I knew already, you know Gotcha. Yeah, let me ask you guys this because when it comes to Going into high-level competition, right? You've already been grappling, now you're four years with this. What did you notice maybe was the difference this year going into competition with the skills that you managed to learn at Standard? Or I guess the different way of grappling that you managed to learn? One of the things that, you know, not even the... It was more the practice structure. We had a lot of guys that, you know, not even the... It was more the practice structure.

We had a lot of guys that, you know, it's more like a... I would say a cultural thing in the gym, right? We had a lot of like-minded individuals working for like-minded things. And training with those people, I think that just gets you better. You know, some of the, you know, if you're trying to reach a high level of grappling and you're training with guys that just train two times a week, you have to get 9 to 5, you know, they're just hobbyists. It's a lot different from when you got a room of guys that are aligned with the same thing.

I think that's what made the biggest difference because I'm in a room with guys that are aligned with the same thing. I think that's what made the biggest difference because I'm in a room with guys that are really trying to improve every day and we're trying to get to the same place. Now, along with that, I'm curious both of you guys because with the way that you're teaching Jiu-Jitsu, like you mentioned, there's a lot of hate on Reddit. There's a lot of hate within certain aspects of Jiu-Jitsu because it's a very different way of teaching

that's not traditional. Do you think that there are expectations that are a bit unfair when it comes to what you're doing? Oh, for sure. Just because it's like, you know, you have this way of teaching, show me your gold, show me your champions, you know what I mean? And so how do you guys take that?

What do you guys put on yourselves? So I made the ignorant mistake of responding back occasionally, which I shouldn't have, and not just me just being an idiot. Because the thing is, even if I talk, like I talk to researchers and PhDs, subject matter experts all the time,

even if I talk to one that disagrees with me, they never treat me like that. They treat me with respect for even trying to read their work. And we have great conversations. And so when I read the average Redditor that, oh my God, I can't even. Bring up the pun. It's just like, what's funny is the things

you're criticizing me for, you're not even part of. You're a nobody, you have no students. I mean, so I shouldn't even pay attention, obviously. And the funny thing is I really don't, I'm not on Reddit, but people send me things. And that's what kind of triggers me cuz I get it I got like look at this coach when people just start like bombing my stuff with people and I'm like don't look it's the guys in the gym man they said it's like dude I

just want to trigger you your students want to trigger you know it's just a young cast they they like it they like it they like it people want to see me pop off you know what I mean yeah and it's my fault because I have that kind of personality where I don't mind, I don't mind making a fool out of myself occasionally, you know, because I learned from it too. But like I said earlier, it's really honestly, I'm starting to change

because I don't wanna embarrass my people. It's not just me. If it were just me out there acting foolish, fine. But I'm not trying to put a bad mark on my students because they're the ones that matter, not really me. Because they're the one that's gonna take all the stuff that I'm teaching them and they're gonna move it forward. Like Deandre's gonna learn from me and become better than me

and Noah's gonna learn from me and become better than me and Sid's gonna learn, you know what I mean? So I have kind of a responsibility to them to button my shit up a little bit and be a little more professional, so. But yeah. If you're someone that's taking supplements or vitamins or anything to help move the needle in terms of your health,

how do you know you really need them? And the reason why I'm asking you how do you know is because many people don't know their levels of their testosterone, their vitamin D, all these other labs like their thyroid, and they're taking these supplements to help them function at peak performance. But that's why we've partnered with Merrick Health for such a long time now,

because you can get yourself different lab panels, like the Power Project Panel, which is a comprehensive set of labs to help you figure out what your different levels are and when you do figure out what your levels are you'll be able to work with a patient care coordinator that will give you suggestions as far as nutrition optimization, supplementation or if you're someone who's a candidate and it's necessary hormonal optimization to help move you in the right direction so you're not playing guesswork with your body. Also if you've already gotten your lab work done but you just want to get a checkup, we also have a checkup panel that's made

so that you can check up and make sure that everything is moving in the right direction if you've already gotten comprehensive lab work done. This is something super important that I've done for myself. I've had my mom work with Merrick. We've all worked with Merrick just to make sure that we're all moving in the right direction and we're not playing guesswork with our body. Andrew, how can they get it? Yes, that's over at MerrickHealth.com slash Power Project. And at checkout enter promo code Power Project to save 10% off any one of these panels or

any lab on the entire website. Links in the description as well as the podcast show notes. It's really difficult to not want to prove yourself. Well, I have these methods, I feel great about them. They're working really great. Everyone in your school feels amazing about it. Well, I mean, I've already proven myself. I still have tons of work to do, don't get me wrong,

but what other small, non-affiliated, single-focused gym that has a competition team under 20 people What other small, non-affiliated, single-focused gym that has a competition team under 20 people that are producing the results that I am? Nobody. So fine, and I'm not saying that in an arrogant way. You can ask them right now sitting here what I do, how dedicated I am to what I do. So there's a reason why I'm having these results, okay?

It's not an accident. So anyway, no, I'm not, I don't need to prove myself to them. I need to prove myself to them because they're the ones who give me their trust in their work and their effort. Not the people talking shit, fuck them. How about you DeAndre?

Do you feel like, cause like you are, when people think about like standard and competition, you're the first guy that I think a lot of people think about. Along with Avi, yes, you have a lot of other great students, but that's also you, right? I think there's a podcast where the title is The Sword. Right? So what do you feel when you're like, you're heading into these places? Do you feel like there's a target on your back?

I mean, I don't feel like there's a target on me personally, man. I'm just doing my part as an athlete. My job as an athlete is to be, to do whatever in my power is to get ready for each practice every day and be, get ready for the day of performance. And that's what I try to focus on most times. I know it's sometimes I try to stay away from the comments and the reddits and stuff, but that's my, that's what I'm really focused on. I don't really feel like there's a target on my back, you know. And everybody I've...

Like even the competitors I've competed against and interacted with, I've always had cordial and respectful interactions, you know. A lot of that stuff is online, you know. It's online. Yeah, yeah. But I just focus on trying to be an athlete. And that's what my job in this in this gym That's my job as an athlete is to be get ready for practice be as ready as possible for practice

That means sleeping eating right, you know doing whatever I have to do SNC wise to stay stay ready and then and Most importantly probably more importantly is getting ready for that day And I think that's where most of my attention goes. I think being defensive or reactionary, like in any way, is hard to do with any sort of tact. And then also to the person, delivering the mean message or whatever it is, you're not gonna, it's impossible.

You're just not gonna be able to convince them of anything. They have their Jiu-Jitsu class that they go to and their instructor's right and you guys don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, and I'm really okay with that, ultimately, but I do like to throw shit. And so, again, my guys remind me, honestly, it's really good for me to be around him sometimes

because he's a disciplined person. And so, especially when I'm in competition, when I'm out there with my guys I can't even handle myself like like I feel like I'm about to fight and so he reminds me no no it was it was really good because like sometimes it gets in the way right and so it was cool like at West Coast he just he looked at me and he's like look and I'm like yeah yeah no it's like I remember I'll tell a story like Like this last trials run, and we're trying to qualify for trials, you know. In 2023, during the East Coast trials, we're like, we're...

My brother and I were feeling pretty confident on getting the ticket, you know. We were like, oh, this is our year. Because we did all these ABCC Open, we were winning them all. And then I fell short in the round of 16. And, you know, that's, you know, that's you know, That's hard for me like all right. However, my brother is still in the bracket You know and he still has a chance to go and you know It was hard for the whole team to you know, kind of watch me fall fall off and they were pretty

And they had the confidence in me as well and like but there's a job not done still, you know, you know My brother Gavin he's still in the bracket. We can still win this. And that was one of the things that we kind of talked about going to the West Coast trials. Take one match at a time. Until the job is done, let's stay focused. I want to be an athlete. You're going to be a coach. And we're going to continue to do this. And that's our breakout tournament, that's the one where I qualified my brother end up Me and my brother ends up Competing in the semi-final he ends up taking his third place match. So we're both on the podium

Yeah, so I think that was and like back to like he was saying is communication between athlete and coach I think having that good, you know relationship is very important. It's probably more important than any of the approaches or drilling, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you look at professional sports, you see it time and time again. There's for every Tom Brady, there's a guy that we haven't heard of, right? Tom Brady was like selected in like the seventh round

or whatever, and he happened to be linked up with a good coach and good circumstances. And the way that a coach and an athlete come together is really important. It's a huge factor. Well, and you know, what's crazy about being a coach a little bit, because you're considered a leader, right? So you don't have anybody helping you.

And so, you know, when I talk to a young athlete and four years prior, I promise him that I'll do everything in my power to get him to where he's going and he falls, it's not on him, it's on me. And so I had never experienced that emotion like that before. And like, I didn't know how to handle it. Like, it was like devastating because all I could think about is like, man, I didn't do enough.

And for some reason, it was so overwhelming to me that I couldn't focus anymore. It's just, when you see an athlete give everything they have every day, and I literally mean everything, and it doesn't work out, it's like, fuck, you know what I mean? And I just wasn't used to that.

And so when it happened, it was a big thing for me. But then afterwards we talked, we had a conversation, and I had to refocus myself as a coach and become better, emotionally more resilient to the risks that we were taking when we're out there. And so that's something I had to learn too, just like athletes are learning how to perform and learning how to prepare, coaches do too.

That's an interesting thing though, man. Cause like a lot of, a lot of times you don't hear a coaches communicating with their athletes in that way and being open in that way and showing where like kind of you have, where to like you have a place of improvement, right? Did you see that a lot from coaches or have you just learned that from being a better coach?

I think it's kind of the way I view things. I don't have anyone to help me. It was funny, when he won West Coast, I was as calm as I'd ever been. Like I wasn't even, I didn't get emotional until Rob Wilson called me. Cause I had no one to talk to. So when I was stressing myself out over four years, I had no one to talk to. So when I was stressing myself out over four years,

I had no one to talk to, I couldn't unload. And his strength and condition coach became my friend and he was the one that was keeping me steady. And nobody called me. A phone rang, I looked and it was him. And for some reason, as soon as I answered the phone, I cried like a little baby, you know what I'm saying? And it was like, I'm serious though,

because it was like all that stress and having someone there to actually hear what you're going through. Cause as a coach, I can't load it on him. He's gotta be an athlete. He's gotta worry about what he's gotta do. Yeah, we can hug each other and have our emotions afterwards, but I'm not his responsibility.

He's mine. You know what I'm saying? Could Louis Simmons the situation a little bit and talk shit about him to his brother and so on. That's what Louis would do. He liked to like kick stuff up a little bit and you know talk shit about him to his brother and so on. That's what Louis would do. Louis would uh he'd like to like kick stuff up a little bit. No I don't need that they go to battle. They're already killing each other. You guys started on the same day you and your brother started jiu-jitsu like when you were 13 you said? Yeah I was like 13 he was nine and we

started the same day and training ever since. What got you into it? So I originally had started um ever since. What got you into it? So I originally had started doing Muay Thai. I'm originally from Virginia Beach. There was a gym there and it was close to my house and they also offered a jujitsu program and we decided to go do that and after the first practice man was like, dude this is, I'm hooked. Let's go compete and then after that we were like we were like the same I think a month or two later after we started we just started competing and we competed like Think that first year like twice a month for like a whole whole year built-in training partner Yeah, that's my brother. That's my brother right there. You get to talk to you all day about jujitsu stuff Absolutely, I was telling you see him. it's like a cheat code, you know?

There's a reason why you see a lot of brother duos in jiu-jitsu. They take it to the, you know, the high level. I mean, who's gonna push you like your blood? You know what I mean? I talk about all the time, there's a lesson, you know, when you get training partners, you could go hard, but there's always that little filter like, know we're not to to push that hard But when you when you got a brother's like that filters almost non-existent you just go as hard as you want you know Let me I want to ask you this man. You mentioned that when you were going to standard you were traveling three hours to train Yeah, how long did you do that and how many days a week were you training while traveling three hours? So yeah, so that the first year at Standard.

So the reason why, the real reason why I went to Standard, how I even met Greg is my girlfriend. My girlfriend was training at Standard. She's my wife now. Oh wow! So that's why, like everything kind of works out in a weird way. Okay. Yeah, so it was right before the pandemic. Yeah, so it was right before the pandemic. I had a job lined up in Virginia Beach, like three hours away from Rockville where we're

currently located. And I remember like because I had that job, I couldn't move there full time. So I was just seeing my girlfriend on the weekends and then it just, I would go to training and I would watch them train, right? And because it was COVID, it was kind of weird. It was like, we don't want to visit her training, right? But that completely like, if I'm coming there every weekend, he was like, I come on the mat.

And then I started really like training with the guys and that's when I started learning about the approach. So I was doing that for like a year, I think. So like I would go, I would drive up Friday after work and go train Friday, open mat, then Saturday session, Sunday session, drive back home Sunday night. And then whatever games or anything I learned at standard, I would go home and do it with my brother,

train it with my brother. And I would go like work Monday through Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. You know, I had my regular day job. And then I would do it all over again. Drive back Friday, Saturday, Sunday, come back. I did that for about a year. Wow. And one of the things was like, because I just got that job back where I was from,

it's like I had to stay there for a certain amount of time. But during that time, I was looking for like work up in the DC area so I can make the full-time move. And I think I did that in like the end of 2021. So about a year and a half of just driving up every weekend doing a three-hour... And you know what's funny? I was the first one to do it, but we have a couple guys doing that now. like coming from like one of my main training partners, Sid. He's like the next guy to actually make the permanent move to Maryland to train with us. He was crashing on my couch because one of the things I wanted was like if anyone wanted to do the same thing I did, they needed a place to stay. So I made him crash on my

couch and he was a great training partner. And then, you know, after a couple months or like, I think, what was he doing for like a year? He made the full move and he's living there now. So yeah, I did that for a lot of the year traveling and just driving a lot of hair pulling. It's not hard to drive that far when it's for a woman. So Greg, he didn't drive that far for you. I know that's what I'm about to say.

No, here's what's interesting, right? So little Alex was until him, she argues that she still is now, is our most successful student. So little Alex was the first kid that I ever taught. Like her dad just like dropped her off with me when she was 13 years old. Just, dude, follow me around, this little 13 year old.

And so she'd be with me from 4.30 till nine o'clock every day. And so I ended up actually taking her in. I got legal guardianship when she was a teenager and took her in for a few years and helped her kind of get her life started. But either way she, juvenile one and two world champ, purple boat world champ, brown boat world champ,

a black boat world champ, or not brown boat, she lost brown boat. But again, this is Guionogi. So she was like my, a Black Belt World Champ, or not Brown Belt, she lost Brown Belt, but again, this is Gionoghi. So she was like my first promotions, my first world champion, she was like everything. And so when she told me that she was like, she's like, Coach Greg, I'm interested in Deandre Corby. I was like, go get him, go get him right now.

Because I knew who he was, because I had seen him as a kid, because I was on Team Lord Urban, he used to fight the Team Lord Urban kids. And I trained with him and his brother, because I was on Team Lord Urban, he used to fight the Team Lord Urban kids. And I trained with him and his brother, like it was just his random story. I saw him rolling on a mat years ago and I was like, hey can I train with you guys?

And they were like small, he was like 18, dad was 14, but they were like small. I know who he was. And so we had this weird history because we grew up in the same area. Like even our original instructors knew each other. And so anyway, it was just really cool, really cool story. So I was like, yeah, Alex, go get him.

And she's like, all right. And then so she brought him up, introduced him, and then... Now y'all are married. Yeah, it's funny how all that kind of lined up, man. It's like the reason why I was going up to standard is because like beginning of COVID, all like... I had a job lined up, but they were pushing like the start date back. So I was just like, I had all the lined up but they were pushing the start date back. So I was just like, I had all the time in the world.

And I would just go up to Maryland, spend a couple weeks there and then just train. And then like, you know, I'm seeing this girl and then I'm also like building relationships with the guys in the gym. Like, oh, I like these guys are cool. I like what they're doing here. And then it just happened like that and then I made the move. And then two years, I mean, not even two years, a year later, once my brother graduated, he moved up too. So now it's just a good, you know, like I said, good culture in the gym. A lot of guys aligned with the

same mission and I think that plays a lot of the, you know, plays a big part in my success, you know. I think on our last show, Greg, I asked you something along the lines of, does anything in terms of the way this training is structured, does it change the wear and tear on anybody's body? Because I know obviously that I definitely want us to get into S&C stuff because you're doing a lot of really cool stuff with Rob. But the way of training, does it benefit the athlete's longevity in any way? For sure.

How so? Variation. And I said this last time, and because we can grapple every day, but we don't have to do the same movement patterns every day. So I think it's not the grappling itself every day that hurts you,

but how you approach grappling every day that hurts you. So we can change volume, we can change intensity, we can change movement pattern, we can change all these things without not grappling. You know what I mean? So I think that's the freedom there. We can pull levers, you know? Levers that a lot of people don't know are actually there.

You know what I mean? Like if you were to ask a typical coach, well, how do you control intensity in a room? They wouldn't be able to tell you. You know what I mean? Now, knock out the big Now, I'll give you a big secret. I tell everyone you control intensity with complexity, time, partner selection, right?

And so we can use those things as ways to manipulate the things that could hurt us if we didn't know how to manipulate them. I wanna add onto that something that's really cool about that is like, again, Grappler, think about your game. Think about the way you're pulling and pushing with your specific game. When your body's doing that same pushing

and pulling pattern every day, when you're sparring multiple times a week, and that's the pattern you go to, you're gonna have certain types of strengths within your skeleton and also weaknesses because you're always going in one direction. So there's gonna be certain parts of your tissues that are much tighter than others

because that's where you always go. For sure. But if what you're saying, you force this variation, you force different movement and different creativity, right? Absolutely. Like, let's say for example, and also too, because we also need to get different skills to emerge for different reasons.

Like let's say Dee goes out to a tournament and he gets outside passed, right? Someone goes around to the legs. And we don't have anyone in the gym that outside passes. Guess what we're doing? Outside passing. Outside passing. I don't care if you're good at it or not, that Guess what we're doing? It's outside passing. Outside passing. I don't care if you're good at it or not, that's what we're doing today.

And so we get to experiment with all these different ways to approach solving the problem, all this variation, and it's sort of a built-in protective mechanism for overuse injury. And so as long as you're paying attention as a coach and you know which levers to pull, you can help prevent the things that you're asking about. How many of these games would you do in one session?

It depends on, when you say games, it just depends. So for the basic class, we do six sixes. So we have six minute rounds, generally six different situations we put them in. For the advanced guys, it could be that same thing, or it could be four tens, or you can manipulate however you want. You know, it's just how much.

So the thing is, I try to optimize the hour. If I have one hour to train, what the hell do we do in that one hour? And we can split it up a bunch of different ways, but how we use time, how we use partner selection, how we use task complexity or simplification will determine the outcomes we get. And that all changes like, you know,

depending where we're at in the week, where we're at in like the competition schedule, and then we could pull those levers to kind of make sure that we're not only still developing the skills we want, but also making sure we're recovered. You know, that's a big thing, you know. Yeah. Since the last time you were here, I think it was like you were here and then maybe like a month later I was in Tahoe and I went into a gym, a commercial gym.

And then I saw like these mats and stuff. And I'm like, just kind of looking and I'm like, I think I know that guy. And it was Chris who's over there in the corner. It was his place where he's training people utilizing your methods. And so I went over to him and talked to him for a second. And I was like, this seems awesome.

This is really cool. Cause I met him, I met him at super training. He came when you came, cause he wanted to kind of check out the show and stuff and get to meet you and all that. And he was like, well, he's like, if you want, there's a class in like 15 minutes. So he, I do that to people all the time.

I screw people over like that all the time, with running and different things. And he, he Mark belled me to death there. And I was like, well, I'm here and I basically have no choice. So I did the class and it was, I would say that it was awesome in comparison to other Jiu-Jitsu I've been exposed to,

which is a tiny amount. I've only done like four or five Jiu-Jitsu classes in my life. And that was one of them. So I don't have a lot of experience with it, but I found it to be more fun. I found it to be like more exciting. And then it was also like very taxing, like very quickly.

Oh, for sure. And we were at altitude too, but I was like, holy shit, this gets to be really difficult, really fast. Well, what's interesting is people try to separate skill and capacity. So like, oh, this is techniques or skill work. And you gotta build your capacities elsewhere. Now there's a reason to build capacity elsewhere,

but what's wrong with utilizing our aware a new player is learning how to be physical while also developing some foundational skills. I think that we should marry those things. Performance and training really are the same thing if we were to talk about it. So yeah, so that's the good thing, right? You get tired because you don't have the capacity

to train for an hour yet. I just couldn't believe how hard it was. It was just so dumb. I'm like, this is stupid. It can't be that hard to push somebody, but they won't let you push them. Let me push you, God damn it. I can't, you're, you're trying to...

I think the other opponent was like just sitting on the ground, and I was standing, and then we switched, but I was like, this shouldn't be that hard. Why is this this hard? I mean, it was infuriating. As strong as you are, dude. I could see why it would be addicting though, too. Because you're like, I want to figure this out.

I want to solve this. It's engaging, you know? It's like... And that's one thing that's the thing I like about the approach is it It's engaging. It's engaging, you know. It's like, that's one thing, that's the thing I like about the approach is it's always engaging. Because the moment you stop, you have a lapse in focus, or you're not engaged, you're losing the game. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm saying. Like, there's a lot, when I used to come up, me and my brother were in our previous gym, we were kind of just like coaching ourselves, We were doing what we would think got us better drilling.

I remember we'd drill, put the clock on, drill this whatever pass. We'd zone out and just do the motions. And we just, we thought that was what was getting us good. You can't zone out in our practice. Yeah, you can't because you're going to, you'll lose the game. Yeah. Let me ask you this in the vein, because one thing, with someone who has never done jujitsu before,

it might look kind of fun, and jujitsu is fun, right? But you're mentioning the drilling, kind of just like zoning out. And when I see some people train, they look like they are working. And when I say working, I know we're like, ooh, we're just gonna have fun, but they don't look like they're enjoying the practice anymore.

So I just got, because people accuse him of that. And it's actually frustrating. Accusing him of what? Not having fun. Okay, okay. And I'm like, yo, D likes to be serious. Chill the fuck out, right? It's just my personal disposition.

Like, not everybody's like that, but when I'm focused, I'm locked in. I'm not thinking about anything else until the hour is up. I think that's how I like to practice. That's how I like to strength train. That's how I like to do any of my conditioning. Just get in that state where I'm playing the role of this. I have a question for you.

Even though you're serious, does it feel like play or not? I mean, I'm just playing hard. Just playing hard. You know, when you're playing video games, the most fun part of the video game... Locked up? You know, the... Yeah. That's when it's most fun.

That's what I like. And not everybody's like that, but that's what I like. I promise you I like it. I promise you I like the practice. You can't withstand what he's doing if you don't like it. His joy is what allows him to do what he does. And I think all of us, and that's the thing I like about the culture

I've built at my gym is that we kind of all are like that. We all have different personalities. We have a young kid, Sid, who is serious in his training, but he's always relaxed about how serious he is. But he always tries, and that's what's interesting. He can be sort of light and jovial, but also kicking ass, you know? And then where D is just more quiet.

It doesn't mean he's not having fun, but he locks in a different way, and we're all different, you know what I mean? But we all think hard, serious training is a good time. You know what I mean? For years on this podcast, we've been talking about the benefit of barefoot shoes. And these are the shoes I used to use back in like 2017, 2018, my old Metcons.

They are flat, but they're not very wide and they're very stiff and they don't move. That's why we've been partnering with, and we've been using Vivo barefoot shoes. These are the Moda strength shoe because not only are they wide, I have wide ass feet. And so do we here on the podcast, especially as our feet have gotten stronger, but they're flexible. So when you're doing certain movements, like let's say you're doing jumping or you're doing split squats,

or you're doing movements where your toes need to flex and move, your feet are able to do that and perform in the shoe, allowing them to get stronger over time. And obviously they're flexible. So your foot's allowed to be a foot. And when you're doing all types of exercise, your feet will get stronger,

improving your ability to move. Andrew, how can they get the hands on these? Yes, head to vivobarefoot.com slash power project and enter the code that you see on screen to save 20% off your entire order. Again, that's at vivobarefoot.com slash power project. Links in the description, as well as the podcast show notes. You know, you're mentioning you and your brother

sort of like coaching yourselves. And I think it's a, I could have this quote wrong from Einstein, but I think he said some of the effect of creativity is more important than knowledge. But there's like, the quote is kind of messed up because you can't have creativity without the knowledge. And so like, you know, if you're like, it doesn't make, not that it's harmful. well, maybe it is harmful, but it's not that it's, it's probably not the best idea to coach yourself. You could coach yourself after you start to begin to have like more knowledge

and it probably makes more sense over time. But you still have to have some sort of knowledge base of some sort, otherwise, you know, you and your brother might just been like killing each other all the time. Someone could have got seriously hurt and so forth. It's not that you wouldn't get better at fighting You'd probably still get better at fighting but maybe the sport of jujitsu would need more of like fine-tuning I think what would be yes, I'm the way you guys think about

Yeah, when I say coaching ourselves, it wasn't really like we we put these on unsupervised and when we had The our original instruct instructor Nestor, Nestor Bayot in Virginia Beach, he gave us all our fundamentals. But the thing he gave us was once we got to a certain skill level, he gave us freedom. Yeah, so that's where that creativity part. So we had this knowledge base, but then he noticed that we were really dedicated, and we really wanted to push developing the skill. So he gave us a key.

And it's like we're in the gym and we're like we're there all the time. And that's what I mean by we are coaching ourselves. So it kind of fits into what you were saying. We had the basic knowledge of what grappling is, right? From our introduction and then when we really wanted to take it to the next level, we were, he gave us freedom to explore, you know, that's the thing. I think of the option, I think creativity comes first, because if you think about the learning process, I always think about children, like you want them to engage regardless of how it looks. Like when I think about like kids learning basketball, I don't think about kids

playing basketball. I think about kids holding his round ball and pushing each other and like trying to throw it and laughing and falling and like that's what I think learning kids holding his round ball and pushing each other and like trying to throw it and laughing and falling. And like, that's what I think learning looks like. Because knowledge is ad hoc, it's after the fact. It comes later. So when the kid starts to make a transition to actually develop skill, that's where a knowledgeable coach becomes necessary.

But all early play starts with desire and interest and fun. If you don't have that, you don't have skill. A funny athlete who I think I want to mention here, not many people watch basketball here, but LaMelo Ball, you guys ever heard of LaMelo Ball? I don't watch sports. Yeah, I don't really watch basketball, I watch highlights, but LaMelo was,

he's one of the Ball brothers, and he's the youngest of them. And when he came into the NBA, everyone was like, just like, how could this guy make an NBA? His shooting form is off. He just did everything like he was playing a video game. That's how he played in high school. That's his dad just taught him how to play basketball

by having fun. So he'd let him shoot from half court. He'd let him do that in high school games. And now he's doing that in the NBA. With like non-traditional fundamentals, this guy's pulling up from like close to half court all the time, just like doing this weird shit because of the way he learned how to play the game,

having fun with his brothers. But why is fundamental always considered an aesthetic? Like, why do I have to shoot like this guy? If it goes in the hole, who cares if you're doing it underhand? Who gives a shit, right? You want the ball to go in as consistently as possible in the face of pressure.

If you can do that, who cares? It doesn't matter how it looks, you know. You're scoring. That's all that matters, you know? Yeah. So, sorry, I just wanted to bring up this question because like this happens to me all the time. Again, like a traditional class, but like let's say me and Josh are rolling and he'll do something to get past my guard like without even any effort I'm like, whoa shit, dude. What did you you know?

I'll ask him to kind of redo that and then I'll try to mimic it Does that happen a lot with your guys's approach in a way but not like oh, what did you do? I think I think and you can ask D this I think I've created a culture and an understanding at my gym where we already know sort of what's happening early on So we don't have the confused player like by the time you get a blue belt you sort in my gym where we already know sort of what's happening early on. So we don't have the confused player. Like by the time you get a blue belt, you sort of in my gym, you know how to play the game. So it's not a surprise, but it doesn't mean

we don't discuss things that are happening. Let's say D does a cool transition from one thing to another thing and it's like, oh man, I noticed that your grip was here and it made me feel like this. Like what were you trying to do? And then we sit down and bullshit about it. And he sits down with the guys all the time

and talks about what he's thinking, what he's feeling, what he's focused on. And this creates inspiration to maybe look at things and try things differently. Showing, mimicry, communication. This is all part of the natural human environment. It must be done. What we are avoiding is the stereotypical,

process-driven, explanatory nonsense that really doesn't have any place in learning. But it doesn't mean we can't discuss and show things. Right, right, like it was funny, like I had a similar situation just happen like a couple days ago in training where someone asked me like, what did I do? Like, what did I do?

And the thing about after being a standard for a couple of years is, I think if you would have asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said, oh, I put my hand here, I did this, I'd give you a step list, right? But now it's more like, these were the effects I'm trying to create. I told the person I was asking me, these are the tasks that I was trying to create or complete, or the conditions I was trying to maintain. It wasn't a sequence of steps, you know?

And then once you break it down into like tasks and maintaining certain conditions, that's actually pretty applicable the next time you're engaging in a similar situation. We're like, all right, I'm just going to keep my legs on the inside, you know, for example, right? From where we're passing, I'm going to try to keep control of the inside as opposed to like step here. Does that make sense? Yeah, I know it really does. The verbiage transit or change is going to be like the biggest takeaway. Can I interrupt for a second? Just, so there's no right and wrong way in that example of

keeping someone's leg in that same position. As long as you keep their leg in that position, you're good. Conditional. Yeah, it's like if I can maintain this condition and this is where like subject matter expertise comes in when you're talking to your coach is like, what is it? When someone knows the grappling environment, we could make like statements about invariant things like certain conditions. We know inside control is better than not having inside control, for example. I'm probably butchering that but that's that's an example of

trying to maintain a condition as opposed to trying to tell them put my leg here at this time you know it allows for more play there you know what's funny is like when you hear some of the traditional guys who like and sell the DVDs and they're so confident in their weird explanation like I challenge you guys all I grab a DVD and watch just as simple. They're like, okay, well then what I do is I put my shin here and when they do this, I tend to do this, but then if they don't do that, then I do this. So what I'm really doing is I'm waiting for either move. And when I see this move, I'm smoked. I'm like, what has any of you guys, do you guys operate

like that? Yeah. It's like, oh, you'll get this reaction. And when that happens, do you guys operate like that? Yeah, it's like you'll get this reaction and when that happens then you're gonna do this different whatever move or whatever. There's like an infinite like layering of reactions that you gotta be prepared for and then eventually when whoever gets tired is gonna lose the exchange. But if you just think about it more like as maintaining certain conditions is like, that's applicable. I could do that immediately, you know,

and I don't have to think about 10 steps. I think there's an old wrestling video game where like you would hit the guy and like stun him and then it would be like paused and then you could select what you wanted to do next and you have to like try to get to it really quick. I could do that in a fit. Oh man, that would be amazing.

It sounds like what you're referencing, like it's the dictionary or Rolodex of information that you have. Yeah, I always called it the infinite if this then that, right? It sounds like what you're referencing, like it's the dictionary or Rolodex of information that you have. Yeah, I always called it the infinite, if this, then that, right? Like if this, then that, and if this, then that. But with that approach, it literally never ends because I don't know how to get to the end goal.

What's even more fascinating is they say that, but you never see it. Get any one of those DVDs, watch their explanation, all eight hours of it, and watch their match. They might struggle to just make a connection for 10 minutes. It's like, wait, I just bought your DVD for $200, and you showed me that if-than, 100 different ways,

and you showed it with confidence and smoothness, and your drill looks amazing, but I just watched your last match, and you got stuck belly up kicking your feet at the top player until you won by decision. So, where's your DVD? You know what I mean? And it's like, anyway, we just need a better way.

We just need a better way. Let's pull this up, Mark. Yeah. Take on this. See what you guys think. That makes me feel kind of scared. This guy's juiced up and it's just unfair. My whole life.

I'll start a match with the people on steroids and I'll be like, what the fuck? He feels like a rock. Their bodies just feel super solid. But then I think about Dan Gable. He's one of my idols and he talks about those people that cheat and take shortcuts. And I never cheated or took a shortcut. So I have a stronger mind than all those people.

So I knew that if I use my mind against theirs, my mind is always going to be stronger than theirs. So I always overcame those people in my whole career in jiu-jitsu. And it made it even more special to me knowing that those people are all cheating. But at the same time, I can't stay quiet about that. Because if I stay quiet about that, then it's just going to continue. It's just gonna continue. So I feel like that's a test from God to me

that I see bad and do I stay quiet just to have more friends in my life? Or do I speak up, have more enemies, more people hating me? But I can make a difference. So that's why I talk about this. That's why I say this. Man.

Are we supposed to comment on that? By the way, Mikey Musumaki, I remember watching him when I was a purple. He's a freaking savage. He's a savage. Yeah. I don't know what he was talking about there, but it's like the steroids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he just got down to the USP, USP Fight Pass.

But how do you feel like with, especially Nogi, everything's go? Yeah. Right? How do you guys handle that? Well, he's a, everything's go. Yeah. Right? How do you guys handle that? Well, he's a competitor as a touch those guys, so. I mean, I know that the quote he's talking about, I think Dan Gable was talking about the Russians. Yeah.

And then it was like, it makes them mentally weak or something like that. My take on it is, you know, I'm on the live and let live because the more like if you're competing, I don't know, like if it's not against the rules in this thing, it's like you do what you could want to do. It's not tested for. Yeah, it's not tested. So it's not against the... in certain competitions, it's not against the rules. So in that case, it may not be necessarily cheating. Right. So my problem is if you're doing something where there's a tested event and it's against the rules, right? If it's against the rules, like, and you break the rules, now that's where my problem is. You're lying. You're cheating, right?

But if it's not, like, you know, do as you please, you're cheating. But if it's not, do as you please. Hopefully you educate yourself before you do anything with putting anything in your body. That's the biggest thing. I don't want people hurting their health. If that's what you want to do, that's you. Yeah. I think Mikey's thing though is that it maybe isn't really what the younger athletes

want to do, but coaches are like saying like, hey, like this is the path. And then I mean, we've seen the videos of some, some young Brazilian kids and it's like, dude, that you got some massive gyno and you're barely getting started. Right? So that's where Mikey's like, dude, like that's not, we should not be promoting this. We shouldn't be joking about this. This is a serious issue when you have established established coaches that are like saying hey like take this and you know You're gonna do a lot better

That that's a problem in itself is like you're manipulating young athletes that Don't necessarily have the education behind what they're putting in their body and that's the problem, you know You know before like I take any supplement or do any training protocol, I want to understand what the potential effects are. And that should be the same for stuff like that. And then you're to tell that to someone that really doesn't have a understanding of it. That's potentially detrimental to health,

future health too. Yeah. Yeah, I don't really see anything wrong with it. I'm sorry, like I just don't. You know, if I was talking to a young athlete, I would get him as far away from it as I can because there's so much other stuff we need to maximize. You know what I mean?

There's so much other things we have to do to get you better, get you healthy, get you motivated. There's so many things going on. Now, performance enhancing drugs, they do exactly that. I've touched people who are on them. He's absolutely right. They feel strong as fuck. I've touched people that are on them and I cooked them.

Really? Yeah. So it's not the, like, skill is number one. It's like, I know this is not the field I'm in, but like the professional bodybuilding, it's not like you can't lift weight. Like you take this, but you still gotta lift. You still gotta, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so what I'm trying to say is like, skill is number one there, you know? And the guys who take it, they probably train more than the guys who don't. So are they really cheap? They can, yeah, they can, yeah. So they have greater capacity to act.

And so, I mean, I can see the value. It doesn't mean that I think that it should be culturally accepted as something that we should all do, but there's value. Yeah. If it's against the rules, don't do it. Cause you're cheating.

No, I agree, I agree, I'm just assuming that. Yeah. All right, well let's jump into your strength and conditioning. What's that looking like right now? So right now, I don't got anything on the schedule. So I'm doing two days of just some general physical preparedness works like lifting,

basic hypertrophy, basic strength, two days of conditioning, and then two days designated to mobility. That's on top of like my one a day. Do you grow pretty easily? Do you have to pay attention to that for weight classes or anything? I do like to eat. Yeah, so yeah, I was just talking.

I mean, I'm just looking at your neck and your traps. I'm like this guy looks like he could put on some muscle really really fast. I mean, I mean, it looks like it. I definitely have to monitor that especially if like, um, like ADCC when I was competing it was like 66 kilos, which is 145. I walk around probably like 65-170 off-season away from it. Yeah, you know and You know, I definitely have to monitor that But yeah, I grow relatively quick like but I never really get past

170 ish 175 ish I can't really get past 170-ish, 175-ish, I can't really get past that. You know, we were talking in the gym about like your, where you started with S&C and like, how long you've been training and kind of like, how's that evolution been for you? The S&C? Yeah. So I think I, my brother and I really started exploring it.

You know, I would say our first introduction was like, our high school wrestling coach got us in the weight room. Right? And then we us in the weight room. And then we started learning the basic lifts. And then we were talking about it earlier. We were listening to a podcast and they were talking about Charles Pluckman. I said, oh man, that's me and my brother. We had the reach at the time we had, that's where all our money went to like the bare

minimum we were making. It's like, oh, let's go try to get stronger. So we went down that route and we learned a lot about, you know, one of the most important things I probably learned was like structural balance. Keeping the body just kind of balanced out because anybody that practices Shih Tzu, they know that you're going to overcompensate in certain areas. So that was the main thing. We wanted to make sure that we're staying resilient so we could continue to practice.

And then I did that for like a couple years and me and my brother were really on trying to get super strong. And then we noticed that there was some diminishing return on just lifting that way and we were under the barbell probably like five or six times a week. You said you were like one something and front squatting something wild. Yeah, I was like, I remember my first conversation with Rob, my current strength and condition, I was like, I told him like, yeah, I was like 152 pounds and I was like front squatting like 320. And I was like, and he's like, and you know the we talked about this the first thing he said

I thought he was only like whoa, that's strong. It's like and he's like why It makes total it makes total sense because you know, I can my brother and I you know putting effort in that area We're like we were convinced that this was gonna get get us strong. Wish it did, but was it the best way to go about our time off the mat, you know? Nowadays, you know, I talk to Rob, he makes sure I'm managing volume. And now that I built that strength early on, it's more really like, what is the minimal effective dose for whatever goal we're after, you know, whether that be absolute strength or, you know, maintaining some hypertrophy as the season goes on, which is important, I think.

And then, or conditioning, you know, or some, like one of the things I tried to develop this past year was like some power and power endurance. Because one of the things I do when I train, I'm not very fast and dynamic. I'm very rigid and structured for long periods of time. So I'm strong and I could go for a long time. But my brother on the other hand, he has this powerful speed, dynamic movement and that was one of the things I tried to develop. So I conversed with Rob on that and tried to find a way where I could still keep skill

work high. That's where the money's at, or that's where you pay the bills. Like how can I keep my mat time high and still kind of, you know, progress that power and that, you know, the power and power endurance without smoking myself. I'm not going to go under the barbell and do like 20 singles for Power Clean and think that's gonna smoke me. You know, I'm not gonna do that. The thing I talk with Rob about is how do I manage that outside stuff to keep me on

the mat? Yeah. Yeah. So Rob Wilson has also become my strength and conditioning coach, helping me in my old age not be a cripple until I can still grapple with these cats. But yeah, it's this big thing, right? He's writing this book, The Check Engine Light.

His company is prepared to perform and the whole thing with him is trying to merge performance and health together. Because really we know that performance ultimately is unhealthy. I mean, if we dig too deep into the specifics of things, we get kind of specific, right? And that could be deleterious to the rest of our lives.

And so he's really trying to find those lines. Which levers do we pull at which times to create which effects? And he's very good at merging those two things together. So, you know, I've been grateful to know him and he's helped deep a ton. He's been my strength and conditioning coach since before I moved standard, you know,

when I was in the gig and competing in the IBGF. You were telling me some things in the gym about like, you know, rather than just having you spam barbell movements, right? He's having you do certain things as far as gymnastics or your tendon strength. Like he's having you, it kind of makes me think about the way that you guys were talking about training. Like, you know that this, there's a hook and this is what this hook does. So you know that there's something you can do

and this is what it does rather than just training to train. We, you know, in I think in the SNC world, you're after certain adaptations, certain outcomes. But does that mean you have to do this specific way to get the outcome? Are there ways that you could preserve your, you know, your body and still get the outcome you want? And that's where, that's why I delegate all that stuff to Rob because he's, he's the expert in that, you know?

You're doing like med ball stuff and plyos and all kinds of stuff like that. Right. Like, for example, one of the things is like, if I'm preparing for something, right, like a specific date, and I'm not versed in the Olympic lifts, because Olympic lifts are great in developing power, right? Technical. Yeah, exactly, but very technical. Am I gonna spend three weeks trying to get technical, or can I just get a med ball and just throw that thing or

slam that thing as hard as I can. I'm still getting the adaptation I want for power development, but I don't need to get super technical getting under a barbell. You know what I'm saying? It's, it's, if you remember sports performance, the sport is what we're, we're trying to get ready for, you know? So you're probably still squatting and deadlifting, but maybe different versions of it. Maybe like a hex bar deadlift or something like that, right?

Hex bar, you know, zircher, zircher squatting. That's like, that's one of my, I started liking that a lot. Oh, I love zirchers, yeah. Zircher squatting, zirchers, split squats, you know, like that's like introductions to the exercise selection makes a huge difference because you know the way you're loading a barbell on you like if like a straight bar deadlift or a hex bar the the load on your spine which in turn like kind of like affects your CNS for later that day

plays a role like if I have a lift in the morning and I have the training in the afternoon, how can I get the outcome I want without frying myself for training, you know? Yeah, and real heavy lifts tend to just, they make you kind of slow. Like I know that like over time, they can make you actually faster because you can be stronger, but they make you slow like the next couple days, like getting out of bed and like, you know, just little stuff. And it's like, how can you walk around slow and then go to practice and be efficient? Right, right. Like, that's a Charles Paulquin quote,

fatigue mass fitness, you know? Like, imagine like you build this level of fatigue or this fatigue debt, we call it the fatigue debt, where you can't repay it. And you're like, just smoke. And now your skill work is suffering. And that's the thing that you were really after. It's a real like... That's why I go to Rob. It's a real fine, like, really nuanced thing to kind of dive into.

And for me as an athlete, like, when we were getting ready for, like, a big tournament, I'm giving him, like, certain metrics to show him, like, a peek into where I'm at physiologically. Yeah. I have a question for you. Oh, no. I was going to say, Rob came up with kind of an ingenious thing and it actually helped me as a coach too is D had three objective metrics and three subjective metrics that he had to measure every day.

And those were sent to me. So I would read them in the morning, see where he was at. But it's not just the day. The day doesn't matter. It's the means over time. And I could decide, okay, which lever am I gonna pull today? Are we gonna do long continuous connected games

for six minutes or are we gonna do terminal games for 10 minutes? Does he need to work with his brother today or does he need to work with Josh today? So those metrics allowed me to read him and it released the burden of him kind of me going, coach man, I'm feeling like this today. It was actual data that if I understood him as an athlete

that I could use to help his skill practice be more effective in the face of his strength and conditioning. And the thing about it was like, imagine like having to, it takes like, he said, it takes that burden away from me. Like I don't wanna like tell him that I can't, I can't do, you have to change practice.

Because the data was going straight to him, the practice was already designed without my, without me having to touch it. Because I knew he was looking out for what is best for performance, you know? Yeah. You're 29, you've been doing the martial art for 15 years. I know that some people, you know, they... A lot of people like will stop competing early

because like certain injuries that have happened and sometimes these things are unfortunate. How do you feel that your body's continuing to feel? Because you've been doing this for a long time, right? Do you feel good? I mean, right now I definitely feel good. Best I've ever felt. But I know my training volume is not the same as it was Right now, I definitely feel good. Best I've ever felt.

But I know my training volume is not the same as it was when I was 20 or 19, 18. But I'm glad that I did educate myself somewhat on that. Because when that time does, like right now, in like 28, 29, 30, 31, I have like some agency over that. I could change the volume, I could change whatever lever I need to change to maximally perform. And I think as I got older, yeah, I said four years ago, five years ago, when I first got the standard, we're doing 10 rounds.

10 minute rounds, or 10, 10 minute rounds every day. We agreed to this, by the way. It was. It wasn't just imposed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's a personal experiment too. It's like, see where your max volume truly is. And then from there, you could dial it back, you know?

And then I was educated on that, you know, working with Rob. And it's great, because my volume now is not 10 by 10 anymore. But am I performing better? I feel like I'm performing better in terms of what I'm doing on the mat. How is this stuff feeling for you? This strength and conditioning and doing explosive work

and like how are your joints and elbows and shoulders and stuff? Fantastic. I mean, like, you know, nobody tells you what it's like to be 40. And, you know, especially I've had four surgeries, I've beat myself up and I'm kind of like, I'm an emotional guy, everyone knows, right?

So even with myself, so I'll convince myself that I'm fine and I will try to operate at the same level of intensity all the time. And so it gives me a way to kind of move away from that and to really listen to what my body's trying to tell me, but still get in the work that makes me feel good. Like Rob, what he says, like, well, do you feel good? Do you feel better?

Are you enjoying it? Good. You know what I mean? And so he tries to get us more in tune with our body. So we're not just following some protocol for protocol sake. We're really trying to understand the effects we're having on ourselves as we age,

as we perform, as we go on day to day. And this has been incredibly valuable for me. He uses a lot of different movement selection. So he doesn't believe like this movement means this. Amen. You don't like that movement. What else do you want to do? You know?

And so he finds different ways to get me to do the things that I like without beating the shit out of myself to do it. So it's almost like the constraint slant approach to S and C. Yeah, so that's what he's doing, man. Like Rob and I talk all the time. Like he's become a friend of mine and we just, we nerd out. He'll call me and like talk to me for like 45 minutes. I was thinking about this, I was thinking about this.

And so yeah, he's starting to try to really dig deeper into the experience the individual is having and how that affects the protocols or the things that he tells us to do. The training at Westside Barbell was like pretty similar to what you guys are describing. I mean, you'd have a max effort day and we had, I don't know, five to eight different exercises

for maybe upper or lower body, depending on what we were working on that particular day. And usually somebody would say something and they would say something terrible like a chain suspended good mornings, which is like probably the worst one to do. Or someone might say, zurch your squat or something like that.

And it was like, whoever threw out the worst idea, that was the one we were probably gonna go with because we knew it was like the hardest and most people didn't wanna do it because it was working on a weakness and stuff like that. And then the next week, the other guy who had a stronger deadlift could now show off on the deadlift workout that we did.

So it kind of reminds me of some of that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know enough about Louie, except that I know that he used a lot of variation in his method. And so, yeah, I think it's good to be able to kind of still challenge yourself, but do it in different ways. It's similar to what we were talking about earlier.

Like that variation kind of preserves the body a little bit instead of doing the repetitive thing every day. You know, you still get stronger. You still get, you know, the outcomes you want, but less wear and tear on the chassis. I'm curious about that. You said that Rob has worked with Brian McKenzie and you mentioned the gear system.

So I think actually when Greg was on the podcast before, he was talking about like the way you breathe when you roll. Like how it's rare to see you with your mouth open, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Rare as fuck. If I'm going with my brother, maybe. Maybe I'm starting to breathe hard, yeah. But let's get into that.

What got you to that point of being able to have that type of capacity and efficient movement where you're not gassing yourself up out with most people? Right. So I think one of the things that Rob and I first focused on was developing in a good aerobic base. You know, I'm not trying to become a marathon runner or anything like that, but just in a good aerobic base. One for just being efficient in terms of just moving and two for, for recovery. Because you have a good aerobic base, you could train more because you're recovering a little faster. But all of that was mainly developed

in a controlled environment on the bike or on any modality. So one of the things he had me do is like, you do your test, I forgot what the test was, and it spits out your breath cadence. If you guys worked with Brian McKenzie before, he has that little calculator. And once you get your breath cadence, that's your gear one. For me it was like three seconds inhale, three seconds exhale. And I try to develop power output within that constraint of having three seconds inhale, three seconds, exhale. And I try to develop power output within that constraint of having three seconds, inhale, three seconds, exhale.

And one of the things, like at first, I was probably like 48 RPM on the bike, on the Aerodyne bike. And then as my aerobic base developed, it was like getting up to 60, like on that same cadence. But I never did that on the mat, right? I never focused on my breath on the mat, right? But what that training did allow me to do was get aware of when I'm getting up to redline. Like, I'll be training and then a certain exchange I'll notice I open my mouth and like okay this is where you know you just note it you don't have to change anything with your breath it's just know that I am in this zone right yeah how do you like one of the things the gear system helped me with is to gauge effort without having a heart rate monitor yeah you

know that's like one of the biggest things like when I'm going with my brother and we're doing a wrestling scramble and I'm like inhaling exhaling out of my biggest things like when I'm going with my brother and we're doing a wrestling scramble and I'm like Inhaling exhaling out of my mouth. I know where I'm at. Mm-hmm like generally, you know And that that's real big into like matches like if you know like you go We just did the the six minute regulation and we're about to go into overtime Can you just be aware of where you're at on your breath and be like, alright. And then where Rob helped me is like down regulation protocols, getting ready to get into this next bout, you know.

We train that in a controlled environment, off the mat, you know. And it just increases your awareness when you're actually doing the sport. It also helps you like gauge where your opponent is though. Oh, do I like that? That's one of the things I do. Like I won't notice myself breathing, but I'll notice when you're breathing out your mouth, and I'll just gear it up a little bit.

And you're cooked, man. Yeah. Yeah, don't squeak when you're training with him, man. Don't emote or anything. Yeah, I'll turn the gear up. This is an interesting thing. Are you… This is an assumption, but are you stone faced when you kind of like train? Like is there no expression on your face?

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I think so, yeah. Actually it's funny, I watch him all the time because I'm like trying to figure him out, like we don't know what to do next. There are two things that I can tell. Yeah. If he grits, so like he'll grit when he's in the middle

of like a hard effort. And there, his eyes will change. He's more expressive with his eyes than anything else. So he doesn't, but he's calm most of the time. So it just depends on the level of push through the exchange. So yeah, stoic, 90% of the time. The teeth grit is when he's in the shit. And then occasionally when he's fully focused,

eyes change too. But nothing else much. Have you found any, because again, you've been rolling for a long time, so maybe a lot of this stuff is second nature, but have you found anything to keeping the face relaxed? Fumble Keeping that I never really know you don't like you. I know you're not trying to keep your face relaxed, but it just is

I've never really put any like intentional effort into like keeping a face relaxed or like having a poker face I just maybe that's a byproduct of having good basic aerobic conditioning, you know, or having, you know, like understanding your breath. I think that was, maybe that's a byproduct. I don't, I'd never really intentionally just try to have a cold face. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think for myself, honestly, it's like, it's funny. I was talking to someone about the other day, like my, when you see me in waking life, I look, I can look stressed

or mean or whatever. When I'm grappling, I look incredibly calm. And I think I've noticed why. I don't think about myself when I'm grappling. Like I'm just focused on what I'm doing. So the rest of me is like, that's not being used, doesn't do anything. Because I'm trying to put all my intention on what's in front of me.

So that keeps me calm. And I've noticed that with other athletes that aren't really focused on their feelings, that they have this same demeanor too. And you see another famous athletes out there where they're expressionless and they used to be the more cold grapplers. Because again, I think that just shows

what level of focus they're operating at. They're external. They're not focusing their feelings. So how about when, Deandre, how about when you are in camp? Like what does that like a training split look like with Jiu-Jitsu and, you know, strength and conditioning? So when I'm preparing for something, I'm probably, what is it? We're doing a Monday, Tuesday, we're doing a two a day training session.

So either two afternoon sessions or a morning and evening session. Wednesday is like a single session or I, when I was getting ready for ADCC or the trials I was just like take that day completely off and usually the numbers would agree to take the day off And so that was a good thing about having the numbers was like it kind of like supported like take this day off It's for the better and then Thursday would be another two a day and Friday Saturday Sunday will be a single session That's all that's on the mat. But then based on what I'm reading off of my, those metrics, the subjective metrics or the objective metrics, I would organize, I would, you know, talk to Rob and say, what's

the best for today? You know, what is the best thing to do today? And I had my basic things I had to hit for the week, you know. Your basic number of strength training sessions. And you know, he's prescribing RPEs of like, you're feeling like this. This is where we're working at. And that's not necessarily, you guys know how, the benefit of RPE. Like, the weight doesn't really matter because you're changing every day.

So we use that scale to continue to do our strength and conditioning. Still get those adaptations we want while we're in camp. And it's probably like maybe, you know, three or four strength and conditioning sessions a week, but not like varying RPEs. So we're still adapting. And then when I'm in camp, I'm probably doing a little bit of in the morning some Like a cardiovascular conditioning. I'm probably get the Morpheus on. Yeah, making sure I'm hitting those numbers I like hitting the Morpheus numbers because in the from my experience has always helped me kind of

continue to get progress in Conditioning without having to fry me. Yeah, and that's where you're... Morpheus, by the way, is an app and it's a heart rate monitor invented by Joel Jameson. Yeah, and that's what I was going to say. Is that where you're getting majority of your metrics from? Is the Morpheus strap? Yeah, so the HRV and arresting heart rate information and then whatever zones I'm in, what I'm doing, my conditioning, I use the Morpheus strap. I liked it because when I remember when it came out,

you know, my brother likes, he's trying to put me on the oar ring and the whoop, and one of the things that, for me personally, if I saw that information every day, I'll be so neurotic about it. I'll be trying to play, I'll be, it'll mess me up. So the thing with the Morpheus was like, oh cool, I could do it once a day in a controlled environment. I know when it's taking my data. I said, okay, this, if I just do it on the same day every time, it's a ill, it for me personally, it works better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's dope. Why the switch to a Nogi? Really, in 20, when I did the Switch, it was in 2020, everything shut down. So I remember that in 2020, I had just done the Europeans in the GEE. And I was ramping up to do the Worlds, but then everything shut down.

And then all, pretty much all tournaments shut down. And it just gave me time. It's like, how am I going to take grappling to... Like, how am I going to do grappling and make it interesting? I started doing no-gi. And then also, at the same time, I started going to standard. It was like, for whatever reason, it just all worked out. Like, COVID, meeting the girl,

it was like, all worked out in the same... At the right time. And then, now I'm here. Yeah. You like no-gi more than gi? As in... I haven't touched the gi in like... In four years? In five years, four years, five years. Yeah. I haven't touched the gi. I mean, if you think about it, like, in terms of what professional grappling,

like the big, like, we were talking about ADCC and CJI, it's all no-gi. You know, that's where the professional grappling is going, you know? And I think it's a, we were talking about it earlier, like, it's a good time to be a good grappler. Yeah, it's time to be a little bit of money. Yeah, absolutely. Prize money and stuff, right? For sure.

Yeah, I mean, I got my black belt with the guillain. I trained for 12 years with the guillain. And on 2016, right before I had knee surgery, I went up and trained with John Danner and all his crew. And that was the first time I ever touched guys, I went up and trained with John Danner and all his crew. And that was the first time I ever touched guys that never trained with the Guion really, a lot of the guys. I mean, I know Gordon did and stuff, but that was so convincing.

I was like, oh my God, I don't know how to move a body without grabbing the uniform. So for me, it was like so eye-opening. I hadn't put the Guion since in 2016. And so then I started working on making the full transition. And so by the time he had come to me, I hadn't put the Guion in four or five years either. And so during conversations, I just shared my thoughts

and he seemed like, oh, that sounds like a cool idea. I'll give it a shot and just, here we are. Next thing is no mats. No gi, no mats. Well, they got the pits. Actually, it's probably a suit. Putting on a suit. I did see that, yeah.

I seen that. They did a match in a suit, and it hit. I thought that was pretty cool. I thought that was great. Yeah, Andre, last question for me. Obviously, I know you got a lot of experience with competing, but since you are a pretty chill guy, what's like, I guess, some of your advice to help a competitor stay calm for competition?

Because I'm still fairly new to the sport, but I just know that like my first one I was just like so freaked out and the next one was like a lot more calm and I was I did way better. But what's your advice there? I mean, you kind of already kind of answering it there. I mean, you might not like like my answers like she got to do it more. It's like, I'll tell you what, you know, I feel the same way prior to every match. It's just I have, you know, ways to cope with that and then calm myself down. Or if I'm too calm, I know how to ramp myself up, you know.

We learn about that, you know. But I think, talking about young grapplers, to be honest, if you had the opportunity, and this is kind of a weird answer, but like if you had the opportunity to wrestle for school, I would do it. Because wrestling, the amount of competition you have in the span of four months is very high. You have like 30-40 matches in the span of four months. And even if you don't get good at wrestling, you at least get used to competing. And I think that's the biggest thing.

You know, like I said, all the competitors, all the high level competitors have competed before. And that's why they're good at it. And to get better at competing, you just got to compete. You know, early on, compete as much as you can. Once you get that XP, you know, you can start dialing back and picking the ones that are... make the most noise, have the most prestige. In this case, now these days, pay the most money.

You know, but you gotta put that early XP on. And I attribute a lot of that to when I was wrestling in high school, because I think in a four-year you have like 150 matches probably more and you got to deal with that every time competing like three times a week. It's huge I think so any young grappler that has opportunity to wrestle for school is I would do it because one it's free when you're doing it for school. Yeah. That's actually a real thing though because like you know people when they think about

competing they're like oh yeah it's just like training. There's a different level of pressure. That's why it's competition. You feel like there is, but yeah. We talk about all the time, so if we're trying to make our practice as representative as possible of the training or performance environment,

there's things that we can't replicate in the room. And the only way to get those touches is to get those touches. Like getting up at a certain weight with a certain emotion with a certain level of urgency Against a stranger you've never met how the hell do we replicate that right? So you got to go out there and do it Well, I think my brother is reading was it super training is that that's the book right now. Yeah Yeah, they talk about competitive maximums, you know, I'm saying You can't touch that unless you're competing, you know?

I'll tell you experience when I'm doing a six minute match, and like, when getting ready for, or in a trials, and trying to like, get my ticket to go to wherever, how come after that match I feel like, absolutely spent? When I, the day before, or the week week before I was doing 10 minute rounds 10 times. There is a significant difference between competition and training and once you start to realize that and then you can't really change that about the nature of those things, the only way to get good at it is you always got to compete.

You find ways to compete. You have a competition coming up pretty soon. I know you said just a little off season-ish, but then you're probably rolling into something soon, right? Yeah. So for the rest of the year, I got nothing. I might do something early 2025, but the biggest thing I got, I got a pretty big bracket or a 16-man invitation or a bracket in March. So I got some time to prep a little bit. I might do something a little early in the year, just get back into that state again,

which is, I think is beneficial too. Thank you. Don't enter something big until you've gotten that sharpened a little bit. Where can people find you? Oh, good. Actually, I'm curious, man. I know you don't know exactly,

but how long would you like to be competing? So as I don't really know. At this point in time, I'm taking it one year at a time. Really just one like quarter of a year at a time. I don't know, 34, 35? I think that's what people say the prime is, right? And then at that time I started making that transition to coaching. Okay.

Yeah, maybe, maybe. I don't know, maybe, you know, with, you know, I'm working with Rob and working with all these guys and we're talking about different ways to like, like keep performance as long as you can, like performance longevity. I think that might push to pass 35 I don't know there's masters divisions, too. Yeah No, I think I think you can keep top shape until your 40s man. I really do think that with TRT I do have one other question though

Now with you know when a lot of people ask, oh, how do I learn this? You refer to them to books because they need to learn how to learn, right? Do you guys ever plan or do you have anything online where you've structured this aspect of things for people? So currently I'm just doing seminars for people who want them.

My whole thing is I started giving all this information away for free because I wanted to let people know that I was just curious about the process and I wanted to share it. And then I was learning it from researchers and scientists and I was just applying it. And I wanted to share my story and the way I did it, but I didn't really, I don't know what the value is.

And so there's no reason to put a price tag on something. We're just talking about what we're all trying to understand. So that's how I started approaching it. But now it'd be nice if people find like what I have to say as a value and they think I'm producing things, reach out to me and we'll do work. You know what I mean?

But yeah, I mean, there's some stuff in the pipeline. Me and my editor and the guy who does all our videos have talked and there's been some things that got in the way of us building some content, but I don't know, it's all on the books. But either way, I'm doing seminars right now. I'll go anywhere if you guys wanna pay for me to be there. People do consultation calls with me.

I do everything I can to spread the information and help people out. So yeah, but no, nothing solid on the internet right now. It's all just interacting with me or my students. You mentioned reading a lot of books. What are some, maybe a couple of books you can recommend to people? So if anyone, if you go to my IG, at GDSowders,

I put up a post through the day, I took two pictures of like the few books I read in the last, however many years and people have been picking through that and kind of selecting. And those are the ones that I think have been most beneficial for me. But just to give a quick answer, anything by Rob Gray,

Rob Gray is the professor that I started learning all of this stuff from. And he has three books out, How We Learned to Move, Learning to Optimize Movement. Yeah, that's the post right there. And How to Become an Ecological Coach. And I think Rob does a really good job at crossing the line between academic understanding

and explaining it to people who aren't academically trained. And so I would start there. Where can people find you guys? At GD Southerners on IG or at standard Jiu Jitsu, or just come to our gym, we're recruiting fellas. I got the most basic Instagram handle, Deandre underscore Corby first name underscore last name. There we go.

No question, it's me. It's me. But yeah, I'll say that too. Like everybody come through. If you're in the DC area, Rockville, Maryland, dude, we don't have a visitor fee or anything like that. Come through, train with my brother and I, train with all the team. See for yourself.

That's what I like to say. Like see for yourself. I think it'll clear a lot of things up and like misconceptions of what we're doing out there. Strength is never weakness, weakness never strength. Catch you guys later. Bye.