Matt and Shane's Secret Podcast - Ep 517 - Confessions of a Black Conservative (feat. Glenn Loury)

Episode Date: September 19, 2024

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Glenn Lowry, dude, it's honestly I've been I talk about you a lot of my podcasts, I watch yourself, I kind of parrot your talking points, I listen to you talk and I'm like, you know what I'm thinking about this whole thing. So it's an honor to have you. I think honestly, you're one of the best thinkers currently. Well, no lie, no lie, no lie. I appreciate it. Thank you. Good to be here. Thank you so much, man. Here's so I have a million questions. You know, you just wrote the book late

confessions. It's your memoir. Late admissions. Late admissions. Oh, dude, I'm sorry. Edit it. Confessions. And then the subtitle is confessions of a black conservative. Excuse me. I read the book, dude. It was, I knew it was going to be good. I because I've been watching you for a while. So I read the book and it really, you know, like books just kind of like grab you and you can't put them down. It was I'm not buttering you up. I swear to God, I read it. It was pretty great. That's great to hear. Because I remember you were kind

of like hesitant. You're like, do you know, like, well, should I write an autobiography? I don't know if you're just kind of like messing around with your co host john mcwater. But did you really have like a kind of hang up? Like, do I really deserve to write an autobiography? Or did you know, like, I'm letting this rip? I don't know if I put it that way. But it was a long time coming. I've been thinking about it a long time before I actually got it done. So yeah, but once I got going with it, once I got

into the thing, it kind of took over. So what was that like? Like, did you have an outline for like this part of my life, this part of my life? Or did like the memories just spontaneously arise as you started kind of from the beginning? I went through different, you know, phases. First, it was going to be changing my mind. That was my title had a working title. And I thought it was about being on the left being on

the right, you know, a black guy conservative Reagan, affiliations and things like that, but then kind of going left and you know, my back and forth the pendulum swing of my politics changing my mind it was going to be about, you know, the friends you lose and you know, the things that you have to do and you know, things like that. But that wasn't the that was the cover story. That wasn't the real story. Yeah, I remember that theme from there. Then it was going to be the

enemy within. You know, I went through a phase when it was all about, you know, fighting my drug addiction and you know, dealing with my sexual addiction and things like that. And confession and you know, getting religion and losing with you know, it's about the devil about the guy sitting on your shoulder on one side on the other side. The enemy within. And then I realized that the real issue for me was figuring out how to tell myself the truth about my life that was being honest, it was coming to terms with it, you know. And I finally was able to get, get some going. Yeah, I had an outline. I had a I mean, I had a dozen outlines. Yeah, you just didn't know how deep you're gonna go. And I knew I wanted to do the Chicago thing. I knew I wanted to do the MIT thing. I knew I wanted to do the Harvard thing. I knew I wanted to do the drug thing. I

knew I wanted to do the church thing. Yeah. So I had these, you know, but it didn't have the life that it needed didn't have the I want to say something like thematic integrity, it didn't it didn't have the vision that it wasn't it wasn't quite right. What do you think the theme was? So because I have an idea of what the kind of the theme was for me, what do you think the theme was, at least from my experience of it, what do you

think the theme was for you when you're writing it? Or like that you took away from it afterwards? Well, I hinted that in the preface when I say it's the problem of self regard. And I say I'm playing a game with the reader, the reader has to figure out whether or not what I'm saying about myself is true. And I'm calling myself being clever, you know, I say, I'm gonna tell you the worst things about myself. And in doing so I'm going to gain your trust.

Yeah, I remember I was kind of tickled. I read that I'm like, God damn, he's so smart, there's such a good way to start the book. But that was true, though, it was you really did disclose, you know, a lot. And it wasn't like, you know, I read it and I was like, first of all, and I got to say and this is I just didn't know how much of the book was going to be about you getting pussy. That was crazy. Got a lot of what you got a lot of pussy.

A lot of the book was about getting pussy and growing weed. I had to sometimes I had to turn it over and check. I was like, is this my life story? And I was like, no, I was like, this is this is you, Glenn. Well, I wasn't bragging. I wasn't trying to prove anything. No, no, no, I was like, this is you, Glenn. Well, I wasn't bragging. I wasn't trying to prove anything. No, no, no. I was just telling you what happened.

Well, you don't need to, bro. You don't need to, man. That was the smoking jacket. Dude, I would try to explain that to people. What are you talking about? I'm like, dude, it's the funniest thing. Was that was your Uncle Adler smoking jacket? You should have known my Uncle Adler, man.

Yeah, that was my Uncle Adler smoking jacket. And he gave it to me. I mean, he came to my bachelor pad on the near north side of Chicago Lincoln Park. And, you know, it was all set up for seduction. Yeah, you know, I've got the music playing and I got the incense burning and the weed and whatnot. You know, the fireplace and the exposed brick, the track lighting the four poster bed, you know, I'm ready, bro. And he says, Oh, man, this is too much, you know, you will make better use of this than me because he was he was this Duke Ellington esque. He was born in the early

20s. So you know, he would have been like 30 years old in 1952 53. You know, he was he was using his prime. He was in his prime and he transferred you the smoking jacket Well by the time I this happened, which was the late 70s He was past his prime and he was he was in decline. He drank himself to death. Yeah he had he had a lot of different issues, but he was a ladies man par excellence and Wait, so how old was the jacket? How old was he when he gave you the jacket?

Okay, this was he would have been 55. OK, I understand he was 30. I got you. So he was like really happy. He was still making good use of it. When he was. So what is so what was the protocol for the jacket? Would it be on like in the house, would you toss it on afterwards? Like how exactly did it work? The coolest thing was coming out of the shower shower drying off and just putting the jacket on.

Shoo. God damn. And then I don't know if you fully, I mean maybe you recognize this, but just like the poetic nature of how it met its demise, just a scorned young lover cutting it to pieces, like there was no other way that jacket was going to lose form other than that by the hands of a scorned young lady. It was like some kind of Greek tragedy. That's what I'm saying. I read that. I was like, this is beautiful. Like I say, it was like entrails strung on the floor like, you know, the soothsayer is supposed to come in and tell you what your future is going to be when you see this shit. But that's what I really liked, because, like, you know, you really can, like you were saying, like,, I'll just hit a couple key themes from the south side of Chicago, blah, blah, blah. But you really really went in in the autobiography. And it was like, you were really laid like, you know, just stuff out there that I think a lot of people would kind of be like, now I'm going to polish my image where you're like, well, I want to be authentic, but then I don't want to totally, you know, loser is everyone has stuff they've done that they're obviously not proud of.

totally, you know, loser is everyone has stuff they've done that they're obviously not proud of. To the point where people might be saying you're telling me too much, they might be saying, why are you telling me all of this? They might and to be able to like, make them learn from them grow from them. And I just I just like when people are like, you think you're gonna pass now it's like, dude, I'm sure you've done stuff to like, yeah, my answer would be like, yeah, dude, I wrote it down. And it's like, what a pass for what it's just like, this is my life. This is what happened. And it's like, life. This is what happened. And it's like, well, that's where I came out. I came out saying, you know, it is what it is. And I have to tell it fully. And as I say in the book, in a way that I'm exposing myself to myself to I'm going back over these things. And I'm asking myself, man, how could you have done that? What was it going on? You might like like when I spoke crack in my Harvard office? Yeah, that was pretty good I take my whole career in my hands. Anybody could have come in with a security key, man

Yeah that and also crazy. That was a wild move and also I will say Bringing bringing, you know the side babe to a work thing bringing, you know, the side babe to a work thing. I read that. I was like, no, don't do this. No, no, dude. That was crazy. In Israel, in Israel, I took her to a conference at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem Mount Sculptus campus. And people were people really like the people actually like to take you aside like, dude, what the hell, or they just kind of like- They did, but they raised their eyebrows, but I was oblivious to the whole thing, man. I was getting ready to go into the Reagan administration as an undersecretary to Bill Bennett in the education department, which was all about family values and everything

like that. And I was, it was just crazy. Yeah, but the thing that I'm, this is the one question I like, because when I read your autobiography and it sent me I started reading them now like impulsively I'm reading a bunch of them because then I started like when I read yours the big question was like to that point of like when you were like you know orbiting the apex of basically worldly power and then the whole thing that the thinking that I would get from your autobiography would be like

yeah I shouldn't be doing this I shouldn't be having extra extra marital affairs, but I kind of deserve a reward. I'm working hard. I'm getting all this stuff. And that was the thinking at the time. And it's honestly like, like you said, you weren't obviously the only one in Washington, D.C. that had, you know, a little sweet thing on the side. So the question would be like, looking back on all that, what do you think a person in like super high stature, like deserves quote unquote, or like, what do you think looking back

on that now? Does that question make sense? Well, yeah. In the book, I talk about Master the universe. Yes, that's the phrase, you know, and I got that from Tom Wolfe, the writer, you know, his book, Bonfire of the Vanities, you know, his character Sherman McCoy, who was a bond trader, he was like 35 year old, at a big apartment in Park Avenue or something like that. He was living the life in New York City had social x-ray wife and all the museum, you know, benefit things and whatnot. And he's making a million dollars a year. And he's a master at the university. He has a side piece,

he gets into trouble. It's a fiasco.. He has a side piece. He gets into trouble. It's a fiasco. You have to read the book. It's very funny. Yeah. But I identify with that guy. Yeah. I thought, you know, you know, I'm a professor at Harvard.

I'm the smartest guy in the room. You know, I wasn't making his kind of money, but I wasn't doing badly. I had real connections. I was on the upscale. I was on the magazine, you know, thing. And you're getting tapped by literally the Reagan administration. Yeah, I was going to the White House and I was you know, world was mine. I could do whatever I wanted to do.

And the side piece was a part of that. Yeah, you know, did not think there would ever be any reckoning. It felt like I had it coming. The reckoning you're saying I said didn't think there would ever be any reckoning. I mean, didn't imagine chickens would come home to roost. Didn't see anything like Sherman McCoy in the book when he ends up in a New York City courtroom and his whole life falls apart and the girlfriend is gone and the bond trading firm doesn't want his services

anymore and the newspapers are on his heels and the lawyers are picking him over. I ended up pretty much in the same kind of a position. Well, that's kind of my question, because I started reading these autobiographies trying to figure out, like, because there's like, you know, if you look at like value systems, there's you have like sacrifice. This is all from like spiral dynamics, which I'm not like a master of. I've just read books about it.

And there's like express self, which is like, I'm going to get what I want, you know, not even like damn everybody else, is like I'm gonna get what I want, you know Not even like damn everybody else but like I'm gonna you know, try to get as much as I want is you know That's my driving emphasis on life and then there's like I should sacrifice my well-being for the good of others No, they're just two prevalent worldviews that like, you know, you can either subscribe to one and the question I have is like To what degree do you sacrifice your own joy and happiness versus do you pursue your own joys and like, basically, how do those worldviews play out if you read someone's entire life? So I don't have the answer to that. I don't know if maybe you could share. Yeah, it's really it's a it's kind of a tough one to figure out.

What would you say looking back on it? Like, do you because my main question was like, yeah, if you were to have side pieces and get away with it, you'd probably look back on your life pretty fondly and be like, Fuck yeah, dude, that was awesome. But it's when it comes in, it just kind of like, hits your life like a meteorite. I think that's when people I that's what I'm just trying to figure out basically. Sorry, that's like, was I was living fully. Yeah, I've only got one life. I'm

going to live it to the full. I'm going to have experience. I mean, I went through a religious phase and I, you know, I abandoned all of my wild pursuits. You know, my wife who had been with me through thick and thin and stuck with me, we started having a family who had two sons, we're in their 30s now, but were babies at the time and I found Jesus, you know, I was deacon in the church, I was, you know, a, you know, I was going to my meetings, you know, two years, five years, you know, I was a straight arrow for a while. Yeah. So my question is, and in the book, it is funny, because you talk about kind of the

breaking point is like, people touching you and you had to do like basically the tongues and you had at one point you just gave in and you're like, but it's kind of what was that like I mean, was it not? Well, there was that I you know there was there was the secretary of mine who tragically died early in the funeral and everybody danced around talking about she's with Jesus. And I just wanted to pause for a minute and contemplate the fact that this beautiful young woman was gone from this freak disease and right in the prime of everything good was happening for her. And you know, Jesus, I mean, I didn't wanna hear it.

I didn't wanna hear about it was okay. And they were like dancing around this church and that really pissed me off. But the thing that you referred to was earlier, it's when I was first coming along in the church and being inducted into the spiritual community and the culture of belief. And it was about baptism in the Holy Spirit. And they were putting hands on me and praying while we were setting up chairs in the gymnasium where the church was having its services before the service and inviting me into this state of a giftedness with respect to spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues, healing, this kind of, yeah.

So this was a conservative, theologically conservative, Pentecostal oriented kind of congregation, even though it's black Methodist, African Methodist, Episcopal, but they had this flavor to it. And, you know, I didn't believe, you know, and I end up speaking in tongues. You did. You know, I ended up, because that's how you show that the baptism of the Holy Spirit has come upon you, that you have a manifestation of it. But it was fake. I was just doing it to have them stop praying, because those people, those Christians were

going to keep on praying. They wouldn't stop. You know, it was this surreal scene and it you know, they're going on and on and on and they're getting expressive and they you know, and they they want to completion of this thing they want to completion of this thing they wanted. And I did, I performed and afterwards I kind of, you know, there was a kind of cynicism to it, you know, kind of you know, what game are we playing, you know, we. So eventually I moved away from the church but I as I tell in the book, it's a complicated story.

Where do you Yes, where do you stand now personally with like spiritual beliefs and like, where do you So if I had to put a name on it, I'd say agnostic. I am not an anti religious person. I'm not a person who stole they got, they believe in God. That's some crazy shit. Yeah, I'm not that guy. I respect people's trying to come to terms with the biggest questions of existence, you know, what's the meaning of life? You know, who am I? Where'd we come from? You know, what's the answer to the ultimate questions? People are seeking and this is a human tendency

that you see in every culture going back throughout recorded time. I mean, people seek meaning in life. But I think it's the hardest problem there is. What's the meaning of life? I don't believe in magic. I'm not going to just sign on to something that doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe in virgin births. I don't believe that a person who died is alive 1000 2000 3000 years after they died. I don't believe that. That's just asking me too much. But the answer to you know, it relates to what we were talking about earlier about getting pussy and about side pieces and about, you know, what's, what's the most noble way of living? What's the most

rewarding way of living is feeding my sensual desires? Really? I mean, you know, it's, is there anything higher than that? I mean, what about my loyalty to others? What what's the what's the, you know? Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm doing that thing. I think people trying to answer that question, yeah, in part through religious practice is a legitimate thing. I'm just not. I'm just not. So that's kind of the exact that's exactly kind of my question is like, what do you and again, it's it is kind of a

tough one to answer. But it's like, what is what have you walked away from being like, is there anything higher than feeding your sensuous appetites? And like over the course of like, you know, decades, does the sensuous appetite being fulfilled fulfilled be like, worth it? Or is it like, is there something you think higher than that, that just in like, you know, whatever else there could be, even if it isn't like an organized religion, but like, where do you stand on that now?

Does that question make sense? Repeat the question. So is do you think it's there it is enough to just kind of satisfy like, sensuous, kind of like appetites of the body? Or do you think there is something higher principles and over the course of time, just as I could see serving higher principles and then getting to the end of it being like, well, what the fuck, man, I could have been having fun. That was a waste of time. Where do you think that pays off? I don't know. I just know there are other people. I know that when you make a decision to hurt somebody, that that's consequential. I don't think my sensual gratification is the highest

thing. I mean, what about my intellectual edification? True. What is that, Jesse? Get pussy. No, I hear you. You know, I'm in my 70s now. Yeah. You know, mortality, that's the thing that you, you know, you confront, I realize I've only got however much I've got, but it's not that much, you know? Yeah. And then you're gone. And then, and then what? I mean, and then what?

I don't believe in the afterlife either. I think when the brain cells stop firing, whatever consciousness that is embodied in me is gone forever. So what's the point? And you know, I could say some poetic stuff here, baby smile, you know, things like that, the sunrise, you know, and it's not bad watching the sunrise over the ocean from the beach and you know, whatever. And the pussy is not bad either. True. You know, a good glass of wine or whiskey, right? Smoke. Yeah, but there's got to be more. There's got to be more than

that. And what about my legacy? What about the memory? I mean, I know that whatever I do now, it's just in stone, whatever it is that people can look back upon that was, you know, Glenn Larrie. Yeah, well, and then so speaking of that, that was the big, I think this is kind of been in the book, a big theme of your life, where it's like, you're in a place, you can kind of identify things that seem almost performative and like not, I

guess, like true to experience or whatever. And I feel like you could have in the book, you say people because of your race would just be like, Hey, just kind of take a position, not, you know, you had your own merits, but you detected there'd be a lot of like, look, you know, kind of quota filling and like, just relax, take a paycheck and like, just be here for representation. And you kind of really bucking against that being like, no, fuck that. I'm going to, I'm going to be here on my merits and like, I'm here for representation. And you kind of really bucking against that being like, no, fuck that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be here on my merits. And like, I'm gonna go

to a different school. Where were you at at one point where you're like, I'm out of here? Or there? I think it was that wasn't the Kennedy Center, was it? Is that am I mischaracterized? No, no, no, you're not. You're not mischaracterizing it. This is about affirmative action and about race and how you come to terms with what people think about and the expectations they might have and whatnot. And I've gone through different phases on it.

But I was at Harvard. I was at Harvard in 1982. I came as a professor, the first black to be tenured in the economics department. I was appointed in Afro-American studies. I was trained at MIT. That's where I did my PhD. I was a techie guy. I was a math, you know, whiz and a theoretical economist and, you know, very academic, very

ivory tower. And I had it was a fork in the road for me about whether to be a pundit, you know, public intellectual, a guy that you see on TV and writing in magazines and what not or whether to be a scientist. And I didn't know if I was good enough to really break through to the first rank of the scientists. I was in that pack. But I didn't know if I was at the top of the heap in that pack because you know, these guys are pretty good. Yeah. I had my doubts and I got brought into Harvard so early in my career and I was I had this portfolio responsibilities where I was going to be the black guy was going

to be the black economists, I was going to do the afro thing, as well as doing the scientific thing on the economics. And that was just, I was overwhelmed by it. And the doubt, the doubt of whether I was good enough, which especially rankled me because I didn't want anybody to think that I was, and also ran that I was being patronized. I didn't want to be that guy that black guy that oh well We know he's not really really but you know, we got a I don't be that guy. Yeah And I say in the book I choked I Thought about that game of pool. I lost to my mother's lover in that pool. How way back

Dude, I read that Sanders a big pool guy. He you play kid. Dude, I read that. Andrew's a big pool guy. He played really well. But I read that. I was hoed. I had a clear shot on the eight ball in the side pocket. And I would have run the table on this dude. And he's got his hand on my mom's butt.

Oh, bro. And I don't know who he is. And, you know, man. And I missed that shot. Aw. I choked, man. And I felt a little bit like that some days when I was sitting in my office at Harvard

and I was trying to find an idea that I thought was gonna be a good enough idea and I'm looking over my shoulder and everybody's looking and is he gonna be good enough and whatnot? And I had an out. The out was going over to the Kennedy School, taking up the job of a public intellectual and start writing op-ed pieces and, you know, book reviews and magazines and

commentary because I was a unusual black guy. I was conservative in some of my orientations. I had a lot of respect for what the Reagan Revolution was about as far as an economist concern. Forgive me, forgive me. It was a long time ago. I was young. I was young and foolish, but there was a road for me to be a pundit and a commentator, you know, a Cornell West, you know, kind of type.

You know, he's, respect. I respect Cornell. He's also, he's fantastic. Yeah, I respect Cornell. So, but the scientific with the green eye shade and just doing the, you know, the epsilons and all that. And I made the choice to go the way that I went, ended up going. I'm curious though, because, you know, you know, I obviously had only seen your show before that. So I didn't know I knew you're, you know, economists and all that stuff. I don't know

anything. I'm terrible at math. So I was just like, you know, whatever like supply and demand and I know such a technical science, but the like you have regrets about cuz you seem my point is you seem so well-suited for like Commenting like you're so good at like just talking in general that like did you the fact that you were like I don't know if I want to do this. Do you feel like that was like almost a Like a well-placed nudge by the universe at the time or do you feel kind of like damn? I wish I stuck which is they just imagine you sitting in a building to a math is like my god It's kind of yeah, I think all things considered

It was like you say a nudge at the universe well placed in the right direction. Although I have regrets. I mean, I would have been a much less interesting dude. I had done the scientific thing. Maybe you could have been like Breaking Bad. You might have been like making magic. There would have been this character inside of the guy trying to get out. That's what I'm saying. It would've been crazy to keep all of that in, just the hours of talking, all of the stuff you've done,

and to like keep that in, just sit behind a desk and just doing, you know. So there's a character I carried through the book, Jonathan Hughes is his name. He was one of my teachers when I was an undergraduate at Northwestern University. He's a historian, economic historian, economist, but a historian, played the saxophone,

and always said, don't eat lunch at the economist table in the faculty club. Go to the big table where the historians and the literature people and the scientists and whatnot, because it's too narrow. It's too narrow. Read widely. Read outside of your field. And I think that

not getting too down in the weeds spirit stuck with me. I mean, you know, so I might have been unhappy. Yeah. As a guy trying to, you know, every year the Nobel list comes out, you looking to see if your name is on it Kind of guy. Yeah, I might have been Yeah, I mean well and it's funny too cuz they do I mean I think it obviously it worked out you know You're doing you got your recognition and it's like I do see the pressure that is kind of like, you know Cuz for me it's like Maybe this is like I'm trying to think how to formulate this but I especially with like, you know the black conservative thing I feel like there's just like undue pressure where it's like, you know, you're doing conservative values

Then you have you know in the back of your head. It's like you have, you know family all these other people Where it's like could almost excommunicate you being like dude, you're you know, you're playing for the wrong side ball did you feel the pressure of like almost like conservatives wanting to be like? Yeah, say say those things is like, you know, do you how did you because it's a shame because it's like if that's your real Orientation and you're like, how do you balance that? Or do you care? That's a good question Matt. No, I definitely care. I definitely felt and I think you put it very well Yeah on the conservative side, there's people saying, yeah, get on out there, Darkey.

I could say it, but they bite my head off. You go ahead. On the one hand, and then on the other hand, there's like my homeboys and my uncles and whatnot sitting back saying, man, what? What kind of Uncle Tom thing are you doing? Tap dancing for the white man. Reagan?

Come on, you gotta be kidding me, Reagan? Like that. And where do I stand? I don't wanna be anybody's dancing bear. I'm there to say that even black people agree with us about affirmative action. I don't wanna be that guy. On the other hand, I had my doubts about affirmative action. I'm not I don't want to be that sure. Yeah, sure. On the other hand, I had my doubts about affirmative action. I actually agreed with Reagan about

a lot of economic policy stuff. I mean, you know, so I had to be true to myself. I mean, I can't live my uncle's life. I mean, you know, but I had doubts. So so that's definitely the case. So I bounced back and forth, you know, I mean, I broke with the Reagan people are trying to come home again and realize that I, you know, you can't ever really go home again. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like, oh, you gotta you gotta switch your thing. I saw take a little break. All right. Sorry about that. We had a little bit of change the battery in the camera. So, okay, so not to lose our

place. The thing I was at was the, just kind of the black conservative question. And it does, it always has struck me that it's like, there's this weird like double pressure on black people in terms of like politics and stuff. Cause it does get like, you know, just the phrase black conservative is like, you have to almost qualify it where it's like,

you're kind of under, it's like pressure to be like, are you performing for, you know, white people or whatever? And then like, like, who do to be like, are you performing for white people or whatever? Are you true to yourself? That seems like a lot of pressure to deal with. It is a lot. I try to point at that in dealing in the book. Authenticity, loyalty and I resent other people thinking that they look at the color of my skin and they think I know what I'm supposed to say or what I'm supposed to do. I deeply resent that. Yeah. On the other hand, you know, when I pick up the newspaper and I read about some

of the shenanigans that are going on, I mean, I'm talking about in Baltimore and St. Louis and Philadelphia and Chicago, New Orleans and... Yeah. I feel ashamed. Now, why should I feel ashamed about some knucklehead in some ghetto project somewhere that's ripping somebody off in a carjacking and shoots some other train? Yeah, why should I feel ashamed without some knucklehead and some ghetto project somewhere that's ripping somebody off in a carjacking and shoots some other train? Why should I feel anything about that? Just because that person is black and I'm black? And I feel like it's my people, you know? And I feel like I'd be damned if I apologized for that.

I'd be damned if I apologize for that. On the other hand, how can I expect somebody to see that and not want to move their family away from it? Yeah. And is it enough to just call them a racist? And I feel like the people who represent my group, my racial group, go on TV, and I could name names, but sure, I don't need to. You know, our, you know, it's a song and dance. I mean, and not dealing with the real thing, and then not being honest with it. And, and, and yet yet if I were to say what I really think, then I'd be a traitor. So it's like a maze, it's like wandering in a maze.

I mean, I don't know what to do. And I don't wanna feel trapped. I wanna be true to myself. So I'm doing I'm dealing with it the best I can. Yeah, well, that was like, so I went to school like kind of later, like, only a couple years ago, I think in 2000, I went to school for social work or 2020, excuse me, for social work. And that was like

I mean, it was crazy just being like there was no Like like even suggesting that somebody have something you could even be like obviously there was historical traumas endured and like that does There's a real thing with that then be like but despite you still have to have some sort of like, you know You like selfish like responsibility like you are at some point still responsible for your life. Just saying like that, they'd be like, no, you can't, how dare you? It's just kind of like, well dude, it's not going to help anybody. Like take like a 40 year old person and be like, yeah, look, none of this is your fault. So I feel like everything gets simplified where it's like you have one group of people being like, it's their fault, they need to fucking get their act together. Talking about like black people from the inner city.

And then you have people being like, look, it fault, they need to fucking get their act together talking about like black people from the inner city. And then you have people be like, look, it's not their fault at all. And it's like there has to be some it seems pretty easy to like stitch those two things together. Like yeah, obviously, there's been some terrible stuff that's happened that's had an effect. But there's also needs to be some self accountability. Like, where do you kind of stand on that question? Or do you just like, I agree with that. I mean,

there are a lot of unfairnesses in the world. And there are a lot of people who are in desperate straits and who could do with some help. And I would not want to be a 22-year-old mother with three children and making $20,000 a year trying to buy on earned income tax credit and stuff, medic, food stamps, I mean, I wouldn't want to be that woman or I wouldn't want to be one of her children.

Yeah. That's inequality in spades. But that's a separate point from the point that each and every one of us is responsible for how we live our lives and what we do at our time and the extent to which we are responsible to those who are dependent upon us. And you can't let the one cancel out the other. I mean, you. So I mean, let me be concrete. homicide, violence, assault, rape, you just look at the numbers, and look at the racial disparity in the numbers. I don't want to hear from a social

worker about how it wasn't his fault. He had a choice to make. I mean, what who are we if we as a society, take such despicable behavior? And of course, I get emotional, not getting the emotional about criminal behavior with victimizing people. Well, we should get emotional about it, because it's despicable. Yeah. Little baby sitting on his grandmother's knee on the front porch and some THUG riding by shooting a pistol at his rival out the window and he kills him. That's despicable. Mm-hmm

Black Lives Matter exactly exactly That's despicable. Yeah, yeah like that I think you should be able to do both things We should have a decent society without apologizing for criminals. Yeah. And when they're black criminals without apologizing for black criminals. Yeah. And that was the thing. And then on your show, I was watching you said something to the effect. I thought it was like also true and good to be like, you know, and people forget too that like people in the inner city, they're Americans, like they're your fellow country people. Like we should be also helping where we can help and not like using the crime to just be like, that's a totally lost cause and then blah, blah, blah.

Cause there is like, like when I, when I was doing the social work, I worked with high schoolers and I would hear their stories and it's just like, like if you, like I grew up in the suburbs and it's like from a suburban perspective to be like, yeah, they just gotta figure it out, man. They gotta go to school. And it's like, grew up in the suburbs and it's like from a suburban perspective to be like Yeah, they just gotta figure it out man. They gotta go to school and it's like I would hear the first-hand accounts of like what a 14 year old girl was dealing with and it's just like

Jesus christ, man. It would just be like frying my computer room. Like this is you know, so it yeah I wish people would take a more kind of nuanced approach and just kind of like you're saying be able to be like yeah you can call out bad behavior and also not try to like use bad behavior to, you know, if you want to take like a not to like single out Fox News, but like growing up in the 90s, I'm sure you remember the news was just like on Fox News, it was like black guys are terrible. And like you just, it almost like when I remember you a little kid watching TV, just like seeing the news

and like, Jesus Christ, that's all it was. Then it flipped to like terrorists. Then it was like, you know, white people are the devil. So yeah, I wish people would take more of like a nuanced approach that, and it really makes me think like, have you ever thought about just for the devil. So yeah, I wish people would take more of like a nuanced approach. And it really makes me think like, have you ever thought about, just for the sake of the money, just cashing in and going like full daily wire?

And going where? Full daily wire and just being like, yeah, dude, you motherfuckers better knock it off right now. Here's my $2 million, please. Because that's crazy, you watch those right wing commentators and it's like, you know, it's the same when it's like the super liberal, you know exactly how they're gonna fall in the issue every time. And it's like, you know, they're it's the same one. That's like the super liberal you know exactly how they're gonna fall in the issue every time and it's like everything about taking that money and just

Going just unit totally unilateral one issue. Like yeah guys just let me know Cuz those guys Because isn't that crazy though that you have the Internet. That's like well. I'll tell you what so Because you know you could do it you could do it very well if you wanted I have the podcast the Glenn show and people Watch it and it's got a sub stack thing and had a patreon thing and they're paying subscribers And there's advertisers and there's advertisers and there's a little bit of money on the table. There could be a lot more money.

You know what I'm talking about exactly. My whole point is you kind of pay the price for being honest and nuanced. Oh wait a minute, because I got most of these guys beat because I'm an Ivy League tenured professor with an MIT PhD. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You're not going to be able to write that brother off. Okay. And he's out there talking about what the immigrant thugs are doing. Cats. Have you talked about eating cats yet? They will pay. They will admire about you again. It's like you could easily fall in at your own You know gain throughout years and decades. You could have just fallen into being like, alright, I kind of see what's going on here

Let me kind of grease my palms and kind of go with the flow But your whole life seems to be you getting into situations and being like this is fucking bullshit It's a shame because it's like, you know, the markets obviously rewards currently just like demagogic kind of like unilateral thinking of like good guys, bad guys, we're the good guys, they're the bad guys. And that's all we're doing. Like, with the debates, it's like we got to pick a non biased thing where it's like now it's like, I won't do a debate on that one.

And I won't do a debate on this one. It's it's I think it's embarrassing. Well, you know, the shame of it is I still get accused of being a grifter just for speaking my mind as I did just a minute ago. They say that I'm doing it for the money when if I really wanted the money, they haven't got any idea.

Oh my God, you can make so much more, bro. You can make so much more. And that's, I mean, hopefully you don't read. What do you make of the whole internet comment phenomenon? Do you read them or do you kind of like? Yeah, I read them. I'm not gonna say I read every single one of them in every one of the platforms never piss you off, but Yeah, they pissed me off I mean

I have an editor and a producer at the podcast who helped me put the thing out and I you know We meet talk about all this stuff and the feedback and what the audience capture You don't want to get the audience capture and whatnot. Yeah But I Try not to take it personally Yeah, yeah, you can't you can't I always tell people podcasting the comments are like coal dust for coal miners, dude This is an unfortunate reality. You got to breathe some in but don't you can't don't take don't whiff it in unnecessarily Because it'll spin you out you get one. That's like great another one like this sucks

This guy's the worst guy ever and you then you're stuck between those two things. You're like, I don't know which one's true Yeah But that's that is something I do admire the fact that like your your shows you guys really do like and there's not a lot Of it you don't see a lot of like high-level commentary and thought on issues other than just kind of like Here's a CNN panel with like four people blinking in a camera and you know, they're cutting mics and doing stuff same on Fox where it's like, you know, you can say stuff and they kind of like really try to like Almost force a point on people rather than letting the point kind of like the cream rise to the top

Terms of people talking and it's like I think you and John john mcwater do a good job of that and you guys at least have you kind of offset each other? You know, I know you guys don't agree on everything. Have you guys ever gotten like kind of like a real flight on the show where you had to like, what's the question again, you and john mcwater Yes, ever like really butted heads harder like fighting over something? Yeah. I mean, not not really. I mean,, we have a thing going, you know, this kind of schtick, you know, like Lewis and

Martin or something like that, you know, playing off of each other and, you know, my personality is what not I go on these rants. He's kind of snooty. John, I'm sorry, man. I'm sorry. He's great. He was saying himself, he would acknowledge it. He's kind of weird in that way.

But he's smart and he's interesting and we have a conversation going. And yeah, I mean, Trump, you know, so I'm a Trump apologist and he's got Trump derangement saying that's kind of like the type. And I'm like, you know, how can you sit there in New York City and sneer down your noses at 75 million people? And you know, have you ever thought about why he's actually as successful as he is? You know, your coastal elite people do not have a natural entitlement to run the world. Yeah. Oh, so what do you what do you make of that then the whole Trump versus Kamala Harris situation and just specifically Kamala Harris's rise from literally like the ashes it was like a senile guy visibly guy with you know cognitive issues.

It's one of the most interesting things I've ever seen in my lifetime. I mean, what I think about it is there are events which expose the real structures of power for what they are. So I watched Nancy Pelosi on Bill Maher, and she's out with a book called The Art of Power. Really? Yeah, Nancy Pelosi has a book. It's called The Art of Power. And Bill Maher had her on his intro segment when he does the interview one on one. And I thought, yeah, this is real power. You asked me about Kamala Harris and, you know,

we'll start to sort of cut you off. What is the nature of her book, though the art of how is it? She's, I guess giving an account of her rise as speaker of the house and leader of the Democratic Party and the inside game of how we decide things like who's going to be President of the United States. What? Why does she do that?

I added that last because I haven't read the book. I'm so gullible. It's the art of power. Trump's signature book is The Art of the Deal and Nancy Pelosi is the art of power. But you know, Trump's signature book is the art of the deal. Nancy Pelosi is the art of power in the image. When I watched her being interviewed by Bill Maher, it was her tearing up that copy of the State of the Union address that Trump gave that time.

Yeah, I remember that. Complete contempt for this guy that got more votes than anybody else except Joe Biden, etc. Yeah. But she does have a book named The Art of Power. That's true. She doesn't. What about that but she does have a book named The Art of Power. That's true. She doesn't what about she does have a book named Yeah, that's true. That's true. You were you were just pulling my leg on the I thought she really did tell all about like pulling candidates and all this stuff. What I was trying to say in response to your question about Kamala Harris was she was a failed vice president until yesterday and now she's become the hope for the future.

I had and I resent having that foisted on me. I'm just saying I'm not a fool. I'm not asleep out here. I see you people making your moves. I see you billionaire hedge fund people making your moves. I see you Democratic Party leadership making your moves on me and trying to tell me a story about what's going on. And first black woman, first Asian woman. Yeah. Please. Please give me a story about what's going on and first black woman first Asian woman.

Yeah. Please, please give me a break. My sense it is kind of grotesque to even especially to use like you know, the legacy of racial struggles and all that stuff and like have that as like almost a hologram hovering over a giant bureaucratic machine trying to launch like multiple like that image, you know, and it doesn't feel kind of like, I, you know, and it may not feel kind of like, I don't know, gives me the creeps from kind of like, don't you know, all things like Jesus, man.

You're supposed to say the hologram image I love this, this is what is put out by the real structures of power to mollify and put you people to sleep to lull you into a complacency and an acceptance to give a phony legitimacy. I mean, the future. Yeah. Hope. Yeah. War wars. Joy.

Yeah. The joy made me laugh, dude. That was when you did the rendition of Oprah's performance of Joy, was that actually made me chuckle. Do they think we are idiots? What do they think? They lead us with a ring through our nose?

They say bark and we bark. How does it how does it work? I mean, that's a question, too Is it even working? Is it all just a media fabrication or like because I don't see I live in a pretty liberal area in Austin, Texas and I don't see a ton of the Harris signs. I see them They're like starting to pop out a little more and more but it's not like you, you know Usually you would think it there'd be everywhere like Obama. I remember Obama was running. Those signs were everywhere. The Harris.

Forgive me, I forget the Mr. Vice President's name, but that waltz. I believe I don't see I don't see those as much. And I'm like the thick of like kind of like a liberal area. I'm kind of starting to spring up on the east side of Providence in the Tony neighborhood that I live in, but not nearly as thick as the Obama. So that's what I'm saying. It's you know she was at the Great Hope and I'm

kind of seeing that being like wow I don't know if they even believe it like it's a short campaign. Yeah true it was kind of it's over and the next month it's gonna be over. Yeah that's uh that is a that is true it's like you here's the thing too it's easy to like point the finger but I do think they are kind of like a almost a manifestation of just like collective apathy like people are like Trump and come on It's like well, nobody else seems to really care like like they're just trying to go and press a button Like yeah, these people will take care of it now We've had just like these weird kind of figures emerge and it's like how do we not have anybody better in this whole country?

To do the most my wife keeps asking me what job? You know, this is what we have to choose them on in this whole country to do the most important job. You know, this is what we have to choose among. It almost proves it's like somehow being curated in like a very weird way where it's like, you know, like if you're just someone with like good intentions, a lot of good ideas, like clearly can't make it to the national spotlight. You know, maybe, maybe now with the Internet. I don't know. No, it's it is what it is true. That's true. That's true I guess I'm naive to think that you know, we just be like get out there man. You can do it

Be the way you have us. Oh again Glenn show I think people should all watch that. Is there anything else you have burning on your mind you'd like to talk about? comedy. So I did this event at the Comedy Cellar Dorman. And Shane was one of the people who came up there spoke highly of you too, by the way, he's like, he's like, I met Glenn Lowry, I was like, what? So my thesis was I said to no, I think there are things, I'm a political commentator, but I think the things that really only comedians can say, like Dave Chappelle talking about the trans stuff or whatever. He almost got cashier for that. But you know, kind of then he just ended up making more

and more money because it just kind of draws more attention. Do you agree? Do you agree that there are things that only a comedian can say? And do you feel as a comedian in a responsibility to say them? Yeah, I think they're unfortunately after something like if you're in an office, I can't like I can. I actually was in an office when I was doing social work. I had been a comedian before I kind of started having doubts like I had this job. I just want to like do something and actually work with people. But I did land me in an office and people would be like, yo, man, like.

You can't talk like that. So there is definitely a yeah, obviously, I think, you know, or construction workers also can say whatever they want, but yeah, there's not a big difference But I don't know I when I get like I think that yes comedians not to get too highfalutin about you know What I'm enough to but it's like a lot of comedians kind of cash in and just kind of put the blinders on Look, look, I don't want to get controversial. I want to kind of sell my tickets and but I think yeah I think they have a function where they should be kind of like, you know I want to kind of sell my tickets and but I think yeah, I think they have a function where they should be kind of like you know

Ridiculing because I was reading something recently and they're saying, you know ridicules usually the tool of the masses and when People in power try to employ ridicule It never has the same effect because it kind of comes off as like, you know kind of contrived and phony so I think yeah, I think as a comedian you should be like Kind of lampooning anything you see as just kind of like disingenuous or just kind of like fake. Like you were saying, you can watch the Kamala thing and I'm sure people can make fun of Trump do what they want and it's like whatever they have, you know, ad nauseam. But it's like you see something about it and you're like, this is kind of weird. But if you're in an office environment and you're like, I don't know about this.

Now it's like you could upset your boss. You know, it's just you can't. I do think working in an office for too long gives you like low grade brain damage, which is not a popular opinion, but I think it does. Just from having to kind of like, just like you were saying, behind a science desk, just keep so much of you inside of yourself.

I think it does something. I think you have like these mini hemorrhages in your brain. So, sorry. To answer your question, yeah, I think they do. I think you should try to be funny. Because there's like, there's people out there, you know, they're working, they're at a job, they hate all the time. So like, you know, it's like you got to strike a balance between being like, I'm burning

with a message for the world because then people can be like, bro, come on, man, I'm trying to just laugh. I just want to laugh and have fun and drink a couple of beers. But I think there is, you know, you should try to make you have some sort of substance to it, you know, if you are kind of inclined. But you can also go out there and just do dick jokes. And if people laugh the whole time, it's like, I would never like sneer and be like, it's just like perfect mission

accomplished. Make people laugh, spread, spread joy, you know, so I have another question. You're a performer. I'm a performer. When I go and give a lecture in class. Yeah. And I've been doing it for a long time. My first college teaching experience was in 1975. So when I retire next year, it will be 50 years. Damn college teaching. I am always, always nervous before I step in front of a class always even to this very day. I have notes, but I'm not sure I'm going to have enough to say or that I'm going to, you know, be interesting and good and whatnot. I feel like to this day.

I don't know how a stand up person does that thing. Yeah, there are no notes. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's rehearsal, I'm sure there's drafting and sketching and there's thought that goes into it. But it's in the moment, it's the performance, there's the audience and there's no net. There's no safety net. There's no fallback. I mean, you know, if you go flat, if you, as it were, lose your place, you're done. Yeah, they call it losing your spine.

If you lose your spine on stage, you're done. Well, I will say, and this is what I tell people it's like yes it's the same thing I'm always kind of nervous I even the first five minutes takes me I'm like a little squirrely I don't know if people can even notice but I'm like kind of like because I'm like I'm gonna forget I'm I start like kind of a thing where I'm like is what am I doing but the thing that comedians get is when a whole room laughs it puts you in like the deepest sense of like it's it's it's like it's a harder feeling to describe but it's a very nice feeling and you the deepest sense of like it's it's it's like it's a harder feeling to describe

But it's a very nice feeling and you're just kind of like little pac-man pellets You're like trying to get the next laugh the next laugh and once you've gotten so many You just kind of relax and like it when I talk without laughter I try to give a reading at my brother's wedding a couple years ago, and I was like my mom was like you do it I'm like I'm a pro man. I professional speaker. I was gonna pass out. I was at the podium like People and I was like I'm gonna free I thought I was like, you do it. I'm like, I'm a pro man. I professional speaker. I was going to pass out I was at the podium like People and I was like I'm gonna free I thought I was gonna faint So I'm not a public speaker by nature But comedy when I get laughs it like it puts me at ease and I'm like, alright

I can do that, but I can't do any other form of public speaking That's so interesting my teaching a class I'd be because you're not getting that. It's like a visceral feedback. So you're like, yes I got them when you're just like spreading an idea I would go nuts being like is there does this make any sense? You know, and you have all these you know, there's people and the people are bored in class, too that would just kill me to see someone like kind of like Yeah, I Got it. I hadn't thought about that laughter thing. That's a that's a unique thing to the comedic experience Did you ever make your class laugh? I'm sure you made your class. Yeah. Yeah, but I'm not there to make them laugh

I mean I'll tell a joke along the way it'll come to me or it'll be an old one that I've used before and oh Yeah, you got the canned crowd work. Yeah And then they're also, you know, they can raise their hands and ask questions and make comments and I can play off of that And there is there is feedback Not I don't think anything like what you get when you're in that comedy routine thing Yes, kind of this there's like a visceral element that kind of like it's kind of nice So I'm good, Okay, dude, I

think you did a great job watching Glentrow. I would tell everyone I get I don't have any you know, I don't have the the power of Oprah but people do listen to me about books. I have a small I'd like a grain of sand of Oprah's book club power. So I give it double total double thumbs up and I think you know, you'd be a fool not to read it. Well, I hope the book does well. It's so far so good I mean, I'm not breaking any any records, but the reviews have been on the whole very Passive and it's been widely noticed and I get a lot of positive feedback from yeah people like you so I'm hopeful

Nice man. Well, hopefully, you know Hopefully I can get it out to a couple more people because it was really, I've read the other memoir you mentioned the born again, Chuck Colson, I like read that whole book from there. And I just I'm on a memoir frenzy right now where I'm reading as many of them as I can to try to get, you know, the big answers to see if I can maybe figure out this age old question that I brought up before of like sensual pleasure over like some sort of higher order and right now, you know,

well more power to you. Thank you so much right now. It's just me masturbating hotel. So that's all I got. I don't have the rock star lifestyle. Well, thank you so much. We can edit the last part out. I'm sorry. I didn't want to ruin it. But thank you so much for doing this really. I think you are one of the best, the best people. It's like you're one of my top people to go to and it's kind of like catch information because I know it's not like

doesn't have that ideological capture that I think 99% of other stuff on the internet has. So I'll tell you this. So I trained with a guy. He's a good guy. And another of his clients is Nick. So Nick's gonna be at one of your shows either tonight or tomorrow night because he follows you and you and Shane and you know and he said I heard you mentioned on Matt and Shane

and he was so excited about it. He said they like you man and I know you you know he's happy to know the guy that That's so funny. So if he comes to the show that I come to, I'll Please man. Introduce you to him. Absolutely, that'd be awesome. I'm excited. I can't wait.

He's a great guy. He loves his kids and I love that about him that, you know, he's a high school teacher, very modest guy. Just trying to keep his kids interested. And his big thing now is that they have to put their phones in the phone holder when they come into the classroom and they get them back after the end of That's interesting. The big thing now is that they have to put their phones in the phone holder when they come into the classroom and they get them back after the end of. That's awesome.

But Nick's a good guy. Nice man, hopefully I get to meet him. Thanks again. Okay. Appreciate you.