Memory Lane with Kerry Godliman and Jen Brister - S01 E08: Zoe Lyons (Kerry only)

Episode Date: September 15, 2020

"I got alopecia when I was 11 and had a comb over... It was almost a hitler flick..." Kerry catches up with fellow comedian Zoe Lyons. Photo 01 - Zoe in the sink Photo 02 - At university in York Photo 03 - Performing at the o2 Photo 04 - Zoe in fancy dress Photo 05 - Scuba Diving with Sindy PICS & MORE - https://www.instagram.com/memory_lane_podcast/ A Dot Dot Dot Production produced by Joel Porter Hosted by Jen Brister & Kerry Godliman Distributed by Keep It Light Media Sales and advertising enquiries: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Each episode, I take a trip down Memory Lane with a very special guest as they bring in four photos from their lives to talk about. To check out the photos that we're talking about, they're all on the episode image, and you can also see them a bit more clearly on our Instagram page. So have a little look at Memory Lane podcast. Come on, we can all be nosy together. Thank you for coming on here to talk about your photographs.

When I asked you to do it, how easy was it for you to find your pictures? Oh, quite tricky actually, because I'm not really a collector of photographs or nostalgia, I realised. Are you not? Do you take photographs? No. I've got a few, yeah. Right. Okay. Very few, though. Very few. We don't have photos around the house, basically.

Oh, do you not? Not really. I'm not into that. What to me? I know what I look like. I know what my wife looks like, and I'm pretty familiar with my family. I don't need their pictures all over my house at various stages in their life. I find it weird when you go into somebody's house and they've got tons of photographs of family. I just find that a bit. It makes me, actually, it makes me feel a bit gippy. Really?

Like a wedding, yeah, wedding photos. Nobody wants to see that. Well, I've got wedding photos, though. You know, it's usually taken, you are. I've got wedding pictures up in my house. That was a bloody expensive day. And I have judged you. I have judged you on your wedding.

If you're spending all that money on a wedding, I'm going to put a picture up. We didn't, I think we've got one stuck on the back of the fridge, like the side of the fridge of us on our wedding day. That was it. We didn't even bother to get the rest developed. I've got a picture of you on your wedding day. Framed above our. Telly.

So this picture of you that you sent when you're little, you're in a sink. I love a picture of a kid in a sink. We had a bathroom. I don't know why I'm in a sink. I think it was big in the 70s putting a kid in a sink because I've got one of me as well, same age, in a sink. And it's sort of a bar of, I think it's Imperial Leather soap. Oh, you're very cute, though. Curly hair.

Yes. Look at your curly hair. Where was his picture taken? It was taken in Dunmore East in County Waterford in the south of Ireland. And I would have been about two, three years old. And do you remember? Can you remember being that? I remember being in the sink because you always sat on the plug and it was really uncomfortable up your bum. Oh, and do you remember the picture being taken or is that?

I do have memories of being in the sink, but I don't know whether I remember that actual picture being taken. That would have been... It was a very... It was a lovely sink because it looked... Looks like a pretty standard chrome 70 sink to me. Yeah, I mean, the sink itself was fairly basic, but the view from my bathtub was... What was the view? It looked out over the cliffs, and you could see little fishing boats.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So this was a happy childhood. That's a 1970s Irish spa experience right there. Yeah. I sat there in a sink with your imperial leather bar of soap, that no doubt would have brought you out in rashes, over. Were you born in Ireland?

Fishing boats. No, I was born in Wales and then we've moved to Ireland when I was about six months old. Did you have an Irish accent? Yeah, really strong. Where's that gone? Well, it just goes, isn't it? It just goes. They're really strong. My favourite game was my dad had got golf clubs and had sawn the ends off them

so there were sort of kid-sized golf clubs and I entertained myself by marching around my uncle's field and whacking the hell out of cowpats. Well, that's a lovely game for a child. Yeah, it was nice going, yeah, yeah. It was great if you got this, if the consistency was just right, slightly crusty on the outside, but it was still a bit of give in the middle. And a good swing.

Get a good swing on. You've lived in some pretty lovely places, don't you? Ireland. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Highlands of Scotland. I feel very, very, very lucky. I'm really good.

I mean, emotionally, I was miserable as a child, but I did experience a lot of lovely nature. But so when you say you were a miserable, from when this picture was taken? No, that was a reasonably happy type. The island was reasonably happy. So when did the misery? Misery kicked in about sort of 10 or 11.

We moved to Epsom and then my parents split up and it all got a bit messy and then we had to move to Scotland and that was a less happy time. By that time I had an English accent and then I moved to Glasgow with an English accent which I'm going to be very honest. It was a bit of a disadvantage at school. Oh, really?

Yeah. Could you just kicked in your Irish accent? No, because at that age you sort of lose it. Right. I lost it pretty quick. So you moved schools quite a few times. Yeah. Well, that must have been a bit stressful for a kid.

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was really stressful. And I didn't cook well with stress. Well, who does so? I mean, that's the point of stress, isn't it? It's hard to cope with it. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't like this. How did it manifest with you? My hair fell out. What? I got alopecia and my hair fell out. When you were how old? About 11. But only half of it, so I had a comb over.

Oh, my God. Which is not, I mean, it's not a strong look on a girl. This is the early 80s. I just don't remember that being the Pepsi and Shirley range with the combing. No. It was big perms, wasn't it? Yeah, oh, hi. Big curms and big bouncy hair.

No, I had an absolute... I would say almost a hitler flick of a coat of... Oh my God. I mean, that must have been awful for you. I think... Do you know what? I think in those days, people were less conscious of how they looked.

I think it might be harder now in this insta world that we live in of, you know, constant surface appraising. so I don't remember it being, you know, it didn't destroy me or anything. It was just really, it was a real pain in the ass in a strong wind. Did your mum, wasn't your mum worried about it? I mean, if I was watching a biopic of your life and then there was the bit where you were 11 and your hair fell out and you had a comb over, I'd be, I'd cry at that part.

I'd have a little cry. I mean, you can look back and go, oh, well, in those days, people didn't really... We were extremely repressed. But you've got to accept that with a bit of retrospect, that isn't ideal, is it? It's not ideal. It's not ideal. No, it's not. But at least it didn't all fall out.

You can get alopecia where it all falls out and like your eyebrows go. Yeah, like girl porter. Yeah. And I had like, a little bit of that. patches and I've still got it now. I've got it at the moment. And is it in times of... Stress?

Times of worry. Yes, it's stress in it, yeah. Okay. I can almost tell when it's going to happen, like I go, you know, something will happen and I'll go, right, wait three months, and then a patch will fall out. I didn't know that.

Is that sort of part of alopecia, it doesn't go away? You just have it and it sort of spikes if you're stressed. I don't know. It's a weird thing, alopecia. They don't really... I mean, there's no cure for it or anything. It's sort of an immune thing. It's a stress.

thing it's yeah yeah it is what it is I've had it on and off all my life do you think it shaped that experience when you were that age and all that happened is that sort of shaped who you are oh yeah I think so because a lot of comedians would tell you that they feel like outsiders or that they don't really belong or that there's something slightly different with them and but all through my life it was that like I had the wrong accent in the wrong place every time I went somewhere you know yeah from Ireland to England I had the wrong accent and then we moved from England to Scotland, I had the wrong accent. I was always trying to catch up with myself, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And it always felt like the outsider. And then when you've got a comb over it, you do feel a bit weird. And then, you know, around the age of about 12 sort of thinking, you know, realizing that you're probably gay as well on top of that. You're like, this is a great combo, in it? Brilliant. So I always stuck out.

It's perfect to become a comedian, I think. I think that's perfect to become a comedian. It seems like the only career choice other than driving a van around the Sussex Downs. This next picture, tell me about this. Where are you in this one? That's York University. I am, because you've seen me down at the front. Could you spot me in a little?

Do you know what? It did take me a while to find you because you do look quite different. Yeah, I mean, I can't quite get my head around you with long hair. Yeah, yeah. I had long hair. So what year is this? Yeah, you do look a bit Frida Carlo. A bit Frida Carlo, isn't it?

Yeah. It's like a sort of, yeah. You look very happy. I tell you why I'm very happy. It's because I'm sitting with Sarah O'Curray and I had a massive crush on her. Oh, did anything happen? No, she was really cool and aloof.

She was really cool, and I had a massive crush on her. She used to drive around in her dad's old Saab, and anybody in those cars. knows Saab's a sign of quality. And I think she lived in Paris half the year. And yeah, I was really taken with her, but there was absolutely nothing happened. So by now, were you, you were out now? Not really. No, it was pathetic.

It was, I think I'd told a few people that I might be bisexual or something. Right, okay. You know, I don't know what I am. Yeah. But you were getting there, you were sort of having the dialogue. Yeah. I think if you look at the shoes, Kerry, it's a sort of indicator that I knew which way I was walking.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look at those. They are big, comfy walking boots. Was Sarah Gay, or Stroke? Straight. Okay, so you really hadn't made it easy for yourself there. Oh, no. In that picture, you are nestled rather cozily in her lap.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can see why you're happy. So what did you study at York? I studied psychology. Oh, wow. Yeah. Did you enjoy it? No.

I did enjoy parts of the course. I wasn't very academic. I'd be very, very honest. There wasn't much studying that went on. I was usually a member of the most ridiculous societies at university, like stupid sports societies. I played octopush for a while, which is underwater hockey, which you won't be surprised to know that that sport didn't really go anywhere.

This is the equivalent of you going round and round the block on a red bike, isn't it? You're just carrying on with that sort of pursuit in different forms. Yeah, yeah. I joined the Potholing Society. Never actually went potholding because I got myself caught in a carabina in the gym hall by my hair, so I thought that's not for me. Did you make friends? So at this point you had no ambition, career, sort of ideas or sort of drive?

Absolutely clueless, Kerry. So when you graduated from this course, what were you thinking? Where am I going? What am I going to do? I wanted to become an actress. And when did that happen? Well, I spent a lot of time at the University. It was York University Student Amateur Dramatic Society, or USADS. Oh, my USATs.

Theatre was called Egypt, E-G, Y-P-T. Egypt. Egypt. I mean, how have they got that anagram out of... That's great. That's great. I didn't get many parts. I was usually the club-footed maid that shuffled in for like one-wine.

I don't know if there's ever a club-footed maid. You've made that up. Dinner is ready, Lord. You've embellished the maid part there. I've played a lot of maids. I've played a lot of maids and none of them had a club foot I really went

Yeah yeah You're like right Who is she She's got a hump in the limp What's a motivation How do I get more attention For this one line When did you decide

To go into drama Like it kind of just Something obviously triggered that off You know I have some people go I'd really like to be a pharmacist You're like Do you?

How did it? Really? How did it? Really? Yeah I just I like showing off and I like making people laugh. Yeah, that's it.

So you go, what can I do with those two? They're not even skills. They're skills? I would classify them more as weaknesses, but what can I do with these two very highly tuned weaknesses? So I thought, well, I could, I thought, well, I've tried drama school. I'll try and get into drama school.

Straight after graduation? No, it was about a year or so No, actually, I'd tell a lie, it was about three years or so So I went back home, I went to Glasgow, I went back home to Glasgow I got a job in a restaurant I worked in a bar for about three years In Glasgow? And this is living with your mum living back at home

Yeah Yeah Oh, I went travelling, I went to Australia for a year And then came back And then I thought, right, I've got to do, I've got to settle down You know, at 24 and you go, God, I'm so old my god my life's passed away yeah yeah you have those moments and when moved to london and got a place at the poor school in london and the poor school you could go to drama school and you

could work wasn't it that was that was yeah you'd work during the day and you'd study at night and that weekend so yeah for two years i don't think i had a day off you just sort of worked and did drama and did you enjoy it again parts of it other parts of it were a challenge question what the point of it was sometimes. There's a theme here Zoe. There's a running theme with what's the point of psychology and what's the point? What's the point of this? But there's this theme going through of like you're showing up, you're doing these things like to commit to a degree is no you know small thing and to graduate and then to commit to a two year drama course that sounds like bloody hard work as you say. Yeah. But then there's this kind of like but I'm not really I mean I'm

me, yeah, but I'm not. But I'm not really, yeah. So were you still aware that you were looking for your vocational calling purpose, yeah. But had comedy reared yet? Well, you see, at drama school, again, I played a lot of club-footed mates, but this time I'd really embellished them by this point. They had monologues about landlines. They were fully rounded characters at this point.

But looked and sounded like that. you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, um, I, uh, I knew I wanted to do comedy. Right. I wanted to do comedy. So this, how that looked, I didn't know. How that, what that shape was I didn't know, you know.

Uh-huh. Then I thought, I started to go and see a lot of stand-up. I started to go on my own just at night, once I'd graduated, just going to, you know, those brilliant little rooms above pubs that used to. What year are we talking? That would have been. Gosh, 2002? Right.

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It's going to be consequences. Mayor of Kingstown, new season now streaming on Paramount Plus. Because your next picture is you performing at the O2. Yeah, yeah, that's quite a big link. That's a lovely way to go into that picture because we're, tell us about that journey from a young woman going to gigs and thinking, I like the look of this, to playing the O2. So I remember going to see.

lots of open-mite nights in various pubs and places. One of the first comedians I saw was Jo Enright. You know Joe, don't you? Yeah, I remember seeing her. Jo's, she's such a beautiful, beautiful spirit. She's a great comic. She's a joy to watch. She's an absolute joy to watch.

And physically, she's very small and, you know, bird-like, almost. And just being so impressed at this diminutive little, physically small person could be so big. and amazing on stage. She really blew me away. And so I went to see lots and lots of open night nights as well. And I saw some really awful comedy, like brutally awful. And you thought, genuinely, I can be that bad. Yeah. I can be that bad.

Yeah, I remember having that feeling as well. I remember, because I saw a lot of stand-up growing up long before I thought I could do it. But I do remember that exact feeling you just described where I thought, some of this isn't that good. I could definitely be mediocre. Yeah, yeah. I thought, well, like, even if I'm... I just, you know, put a paper bag on my head and popped around with the rabbit.

Even if you do your club footed maid routine, you could be better than something. Flag in the limbs. Call it a character act, get a good five. You're on your way, aren't you? This is a character. So were you getting excited about it? Yes. Ah, so the first time, after studying psychology and drama and God knows what,

travelling and all sorts, you're getting excited about something. Yeah, yeah, got excited about that. and I made the big declaration that I was going to be a stand-up comedian having never done it And you told people Oh yeah I said Cindy

My wife Oh you've met Cindy I didn't know you were Cindy We'll have to go back a bit with the Because I didn't know you'd met Cindy early when you started stand up Oh yes We met when I was 26

So what were you doing when So let's just go back just for that Because Cindy's your wife And what were you doing when you met Cindy When I met Cindy I was probably at the lowest point of my life. How romantic! I know how romantic.

I had finished drama school. I had become brutally aware that I was not going to be the next Judy Dench, or indeed Rowan Atkinson, or Wheeler. Or Speer Carrier No. 6. Yeah. You know those awful moments of you're like, When you're at drama school, you can just let yourself believe that anything's possible. Yeah, that's why it's for.

Yeah, like, you know, of course, I'd never do so popular because why would you? Of course, I'd never do, I'd never do adverts. Oh, I don't. It's embarrassing. I mean, I can remember being into Bill Hicks then and being like, I'd never do ads. Screen swipe to me doing a frozen porn commercial with a puppy. I know. You have principles and ideas at that point in your life, and they just really go.

and Bill's coming. And were you together pretty much straight away? Yeah, but Cindy lived in Holland and I lived in a bed sit in... I lived in a one-bedroom. Oh, I didn't know. In a house share in Peckham. I didn't know she lived in Holland when you met.

Yeah, we spent two years going back in two. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Long distance. And then it was when she moved over, long distance. And then she moved over and then I was like... And you were gigging.

By now? No. I was probably, I was, I think it was 29 before I did my first gig. Okay. So when she moved over, I was utterly miserable. She basically grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and just went, Just do something. So you've got a lot to thank her for.

She pretty much kicked you up the ass and got your life in shape. Absolutely. And anybody who's a comedian knows that if you do have a partner or a spouse, their patience is essential for a long-lasting relationship because eventually at some point you'll be on the road for for ages and ages and you know most comics let's be brutally honest self-centered I do not know what you're talking about sorry when we've got together I'm sure Ben and Cindy my husband and Cindy have

had little you know God it's hard in it being married to me how are you You're right, you're coping. Are you bearing up with this dickhead? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're in the corner going, look at us. We need to be adored. So once you told her you were thinking about comedy,

she was very encouraging. Really, really encouraging. Probably overly encouraging. Yeah. Go away and do something. Do you feel now with gigs that a lot of the time, probably 90% even of the time, you don't get stage right anymore,

but that one scared the crows. crap out of me. It's just so big. Oh, I mean, I was lightheaded with anxiety and just absolutely but we all were. I mean, it was 12,000 people. Well, that's incomprehensible. I mean, I remember me and you kind of

practically clinging to each other backstage in terror and when I went on, I remember holding the mic, having to hold the mic in two hands because it was shaking so much. I couldn't disguise it with only one hand. I had have too. And I remember going up to Rob Beckett quite a lot because me, you and Rob were the newbies,

everyone else had done it before. And you and I were properly, you know, brown trouser time, but he kept, I kept going, Rob, are you scared? He was like, no, I'm alright. And I couldn't work him out. I just, I wouldn't leave him alone. I kept going, I'm you nervous at all. He'd be like, no, I feel alright, actually. I think it's going to be

all right. And it was really bewildering. Do you remember at one point, you and I wandered to the back at the stadium just to have a look at what it looked like from the back with the audience. Yes. And we were like, oh my God. Yeah, that didn't help. That didn't help at all.

We were like, let's go out and get a sense of the size of the day. Oh my God. I know, it's mad. It's mad. But very exciting. Very, very exciting. We had five minutes. Yeah.

That was it. Yeah. And we had to go up the stairs and down the stairs onto the stage. Yeah. Pushed out all this smoke. Yeah. It was like, you can't actually see. But all those big gigs, those big telegigs, oftentimes as you're walking out,

same with live at the Apollo, you're very concerned that just not to fall over. Oh, it's all I could think about, don't fall over. Don't fall down the stairs in front of 12,000 people. Can you imagine? You would look like an absolute gig. I mean, as you've told us your life story from the alopecia and the outsider vibes, If you were to fall over as you walked out to an O2 gig, I think that way, just like, Jesus, the comfort it made hits the O2.

Yeah, I mean, oh God. It was a great gig. It was a very good gig. It was a very good gig. It was really, really, really glad that I got the opportunity to be able to do that. Is that why you gave it to us? You gave it to us as a photo because you think that kind of validates and confirms you are a professional stand-up

committee, that's like the shot that says it. I mean, all the evidence would point to that, wouldn't it? That's some sort of validation. However, we also know that deep down internally, there is nothing that validates us at all because of nothing. Nothing. It's always the next thing, the next thing,

and the next thing, the next thing. So even if somebody went through an entire rollerdex of my achievements, went, have you done this, and you've done that, and here's this, and here's you on the telibob, and here's you doing this, and that's a play you were in, You'd look at it all and you'd go, yeah. But it's not quite enough, is it? It's still...

That should be enough. That picture says to me enough. That should be enough. Yeah. But it's not. That's interesting. Because you know as well as I do that, you know, when you do things like that, you have a sense of fulfillment for about 10 minutes and then it's gone again. Oh, you see, I don't agree.

I still feel giddy off that gig. I feel like those things are, I think... They are very affirming that you are a card carrying professional comedian. You know, it's not debatable or disputable. Look at you. You're standing there for 12,000 people. They're not blinking at you. I can, I can confirm they were laughing.

They were laughing. They were laughing. Let's look at this next photo. This is absolutely bonkers. Do you know what photo I'm referring? that you've given us next? Is it the one in me in a green suit? Yes, what is going on?

What is going on? I mean, now that we are in quarantine and with COVID-19, this looks like PPE. That would make exceptional PPE, wouldn't it? Yeah. I should go down to the local co-op in that little outfit. Yes. I've put that in, I've put that in

because A, it always makes me laugh when I see it. It does make me laugh because it's ridiculous. It's wonderful. It was my wife's birthday. and we'd hired a lovely house in the countryside and a friend of mine DJed and we had the best weekend I think we've ever had

and I put that picture in because I didn't tell sit I bought this green suit to surprise us to come down at one point it was supposed to blow up like a big balloon but the pump went on it you spend nine quid that's what you get but it sort of symbolises by love of of having a good time now and having a good time.

Yeah. And a lot of my youth, when I wasn't being miserable and introspective, a lot of my youth was spent on the clubbing scene in London. I was really into it. And I still love my music and I still love, I love getting together and having an absolute blast. And that's what that represents. Yeah.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, so that, you see, that is worth pointing out. that despite all these kind of like feeling a bit lost and whatever, that a sense of belonging did come from the club scene. Oh, absolutely. That's, yeah, bang on.

I think it's really interesting that in that photograph, it's me doing amateur psychology, which you can back up because you've got a degree in it, that you're not identifiable in that picture. So like you were saying at the beginning that you think this obsession with, you know, vanity and narcissism with photographs and that, Like a lot of people would offer up a picture of them clubbing, a selfie, them looking, you know, elated and happy and facially visible, let's say. And you've offered up a picture of you completely shrouded in this weird outfit.

It could literally be anyone. It could be me. And that captures, I suppose, what you're saying is that it's not about the outside looking at. It's about how you feel inside. It's not about how you look. Yeah. Yeah. I still have flashbacks to those days where I get a bit emotional about it.

Yeah, just that wonderful, wonderful sense of belonging and not taking yourself too seriously. And like you say, it's not about you, the individual, what you look like. And look at me, aren't I amazing here in this club? It's about the collective. It's about the group experience. It sounds spiritual, though. It sounds like church. But then it's beautiful.

Yeah, but then if you look at sort of anthropology and the way that humans connect and dance and tribalism. This is your ritual. That's what it is. It's ritual. All of that is ritual. Now, was this enhanced with anything? Absolutely.

Was that sensibilation? What could I say? It was the 90s and we were in, it was 4 o'clock in the morning. Yeah, it wasn't a credible. It wasn't a couple of Earl Grey. Right. Okay.

I mean, yeah, the clues in the picture there, babe. I mean, I don't think that's someone who's just had four coffees. No, I don't think you have to dig two teeth to find out what was, you know, but that's all part of it, isn't it? You know, some people take themselves off to South America these days to sit in a circle full of yoga, gurus chomping on Iy and Ashka or whatever. Yeah, yeah. You know, you do your thing.

Yeah. Yeah. And you're still club now, you say you're still into clubbing. Every now and again, I mean, you know, the leg supports have to go on the knee braces and that sort of thing. But maybe two or three times a year we have that thing. And each time it's just that enormous sense of joy. Honestly, it's such an enormous sense of joy. I can't tell you.

And I think I'll always have to. I'll be the old lady in the corner shuffling away on my zimmer frame. This next picture is, I know, one of your passions now. Yeah. Now, my big thing is, well, this is the carry-on for my love of nature and being outside, but also in the water. And Cindy and I learned to scuba dive about six, seven years ago, and that's become a huge part of our life.

So this is a picture of you and Cindy. Where are you in this picture? In the Red Sea. And I love this picture because Cindy looks so formal. She does. She looks like Betsy Trotwood from David Copperfield. She's got a kind of Victorian arm hand situation. She's wearing full makeup if you look inside.

Oh, yes! Yes, she looks so glamorous. She's really glamorous, and I look like an absolute dick. You look like that sums. The maid in the blade. I look like the club-footed maid. But you do look happy, though. I love, I love, very happy.

Yeah, I love this photograph for so many reasons. because A, it just highlights the sense of adventure that we have and we enjoy and we've been some amazing places and seen some beautiful, beautiful things. That's a big part of your relationship is your travel. Huge part. I think if you just look at the picture as well and you see how sensible Cindy looks and me hanging off her arm. It just sums us up and every time I see this,

Do I smile? I smile. It just really, really makes me laugh. It really, really makes me laugh. I can see, but what you were saying about, like, earlier parts of your adulthood, where you felt a bit lost and underwhelmed and understimulated, that now that you've found things that really excite you, you want it.

You want that thrill. I think I've got a very low boredom threshold. I think I do need. There is a part of me that is entirely childish, that just has never matured, never, ever, ever. I just need constant stimulation. You know, we're currently in a pandemic lockdown and people are going, it's great, you know, you can sit and read.

I'm like, that ain't going to happen. No. So, you know, I've had to get myself a job and a van and drive around London and they're sort of a... You just want to be busy and active. I want to be out. Yeah, you want to be active. I want to be, yeah, I need it all the time.

You see, I think, because I did do a paddy course when I was in Thailand years ago, about 15, 20 possibly years ago, and I really didn't take to it. I don't think it's for everyone. I do think it's a unique, I mean, I can just remember being on a Thai beach, reading a textbook about the bends, and I thought, this is not fun. This is not my idea of fun. It was like a science book. I had to learn about, you know, water pressure. And I was like, oh, screw this. So, I mean, it does require a lot of adults. I would say thought and you know you've got to be careful you can't dick about down there what I like about it is that you have to have two sort of brains yeah you have to have the brain

that's enjoying what you're doing in the moment and the brain that's going don't panic don't panic don't panic don't panic which sounds like a gig that sounds like doing stand-up yeah yeah because of a lot of stand-up you're going this is stupid this is stupid well you're half present and half not Yeah, yeah. And so many times, you know, we've been stood in the wings of a gig, and your brain's going, why are you doing this? Oh, yeah, yeah. Wait, I've looked at the door and gone, you could just go.

You could just walk out at that door. Run. Yeah, why stay? Who cares? No one will give a shit. Yeah. And diving is a little bit like that. Yeah, yeah.

I can see, I can see the thrill. Do you ever get like environmentally, I always get a bit anxious that I'll get depressed because you'll see environmental damage. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yeah, and you do. Yeah, I mean, I think that must be sad. I can't watch David Attenborough documentaries because I'm just like, he always ends it with some bleak, broken coral reef

and I'm like, oh God. A penguin with a plastic bag on its head. You're like, oh, God, yeah. Has it made you sort of think about environmentalism or anything like that? Well, this is the, this is the contradiction of thought. because I love going to see these things and I love being able to go and see these things but equally I'm very, very aware

that every time I get on a plane that I'm adding to the problem and it's that it's, you know, in the current situation that we're in when nobody is travelling, maybe it's a time to reassess and, you know, maybe I'll be doing some scuba diving in my paddling pool in the back garden.

How do you feel about that that you won't be able to travel so much? maybe if we were all going to have to live differently. Listen, I'm like most people who, you know, like you, watch David Attenborough and have a little weep at the penguins, you know, choking on an earbud. And then the next minute we'll book a flight somewhere to go and experience something far afield.

And there's that constant cognitive dissidence between what I'm doing and what I'm thinking. And now that we can't travel, and we are having to be a lot more, well we're having to stay put. Yeah. And we are seeing the benefits of less pollution. We are seeing clear skies and we are seeing all of these things. You know, it's like a grief and an acceptance. And because, let's be brutally honest, saving the planet is going to be hard for us

because we're going to have to give up a lot of things. But maybe by being forced to do it is the only way. Because we've all got the intention. You know, I live in Brighton. There's a lot of people who knits their own musely. It's that sort of thing. But equally, we live 24 miles from Gatwick, where you can pop on a plane and visit your little second debos in Bergerac.

You know, it's that constant dissidence between what you're doing and what you're thinking. And maybe we were just too dumb and too selfish to reel it in ourselves. And maybe it needs something as brutal as a global pandemic. for us to be all told off and put on the naughty step and go, no, if that's what you just, you know, if you've got your Hessian totes bag and you're recycling your wine bottles, then this is the next step,

and nobody's going anywhere. And can you, you think you can find the joy that you get from scuba diving elsewhere? Yes. Well, that's good. Yeah. Do you know how to access it? Yeah.

Yeah, I know what it is. I know what happiness is. It's quite similar. It is actually very, very simple. What's the answer? Tell us with your psychology degree. It's an acceptance. It's being stoic in the moment.

It's not resisting the hard things, but sort of flowing through them. It's, it's, and being really grateful for what you've got, really grateful. And it's being really grateful. And it is being outside. We are animals. It sounds so ridiculous. It doesn't. It sounds great.

But it's being at one with nature as opposed to being constantly in battle with nature. Because psychologically we've been in battle with nature because we love it but we've been destroying it willfully. And I'm just as guilty, you know. I flew to Mexico. The carbon footprint on that is massive. I flew to Mexico to go.

and see nature. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense, does it? No. So, but I'm not, I wasn't strong enough in my own will to say, well, I'm not going. I wanted to go and I could go, so I did go. But obviously it makes no sense when you add it all up. No. It makes no sense. So, if we truly believe that we want to save the planet and we really, really want a different life, then that comes at an enormous cost. But with massive benefits, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah.

I like this. I like this is turned into a lesson in life with guru lions. Well, apparently, during the lockdown, books on stoicism have gone through the roof. I bet they have. I mean, it seems to me that you're saying it's a massive sacrifice. I don't know, I mean, I bet it's an accessible sacrifice. Like you said, the things that you notice.

to be true are the relationships and the gratitude and the sort of stoicism and whatever. And you don't have to go to Mexico to feel that and know that. No. And I mean, I worry because you and I are well-traveled and that's great and we'll always have that in our memory bank. But I feel sorry that maybe another generation are going to miss out on that. And that's probably true and unfortunate for them. But I just don't think every generation can have the same life experiences. You know, I just, I can't see my.

kids getting to travel like you and I have, probably. No, yeah. But they might get to survive. They might get to survive. What I enjoy about our chats is that you're so positive. And I know that you'd had some difficult parts of your, like, childhood and early adult life, but you're always so positive about it. It's really inspiring.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I'm a happy person these days. Yeah, I feel. I'm a happy person. You know how to get happy. Absolutely. And you bring a lot of joy to a lot of people, Zoe Lyne. Thank you so much for talking us through your pictures.

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, darling. Bye, love. That's it for this week. The rest of Series 1 is available with all the photos on our Instagram page. And Jen and I will be doing new episodes every week. Thanks for listening. Bye.

I'm Max Rushden. I'm David O'Darney. And we'd like to invite you to listen to our new podcast, What Did You Do Yesterday? It's a show that asks guests the big question, quite literally, what did you do yesterday? That's it. That is it. Max, I'm still not sure. Where do we put the stress?

Is it what did you do yesterday? What did you do yesterday? You know what did you do yesterday? I'm really down playing it. Like, what did you do yesterday? Like, I'm just a guy just asking a question. But do you think I should go bigger? What did you do yesterday? What did you do yesterday?

Every single word this time I'm going to try and make it like it is the killer word. What did you do yesterday? I think that's too much, isn't it? That's over the top. What did you do yesterday? Available wherever you get your podcasts every Sunday.