Mick Unplugged - Jonathan Capehart: Lessons in Truth, Connection, and Self-Belief

Starting point is 00:00:00 Believe in yourself. You know, Lena Horn, when she's singing that song, and, you know, it's a great song. And then you start listening to the words. And you start, I started internalizing them. And when I feel, there have been moments when I have felt low, and I'll put that on. And there's just something so uplifting about it. Welcome to Mick Unplugged, the number one. on podcast for self-improvement, leadership, and relentless growth.

Starting point is 00:00:34 No fluff, no filters, just heart-hitting truths, unstoppable strategies, and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits? Let's go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged, and today we have a bucket list conversation for me, someone who's been a blueprint for some of the things that I've done in my podcast journey. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, a fearless truth teller on MSNBC, and a trusted voice

Starting point is 00:01:09 shaping national conversations. His work doesn't just report the culture. It moves it forward. Get ready for an amazing conversation with the brilliant, the courageous, the unapologetic, my blueprint, Mr. Jonathan, how you doing today, brother? I am great. And Mick, I have to tell you, I'm blown away by that, by that introduction. No one has ever told me that I was their blueprint. And you're reading the book. You know, and I hope you understand just like what an honor that is to hear and to hear from you. So thank you very much. I'm thrilled to be here. Well, the thanks is all to you. And we're going to get to the book in a second, man, because it is page turning. It is reflective and it is you. And that's why I love it, man. But one of the things that I love to ask my guests and my special guests on Make Unplugged is about your because. That thing that's deeper than your why. You know, Simon Sinek said start with why. And I believe that. But then I also believe that you're fueled by your because. That deeper purpose, that why behind the why. So if I were to say, Mr. Jonathan Capehart, what's your because?

Starting point is 00:02:30 Why do you keep doing the thing that you do so brilliantly? I think my because is because this is what I've always wanted to do, because what I want to do is about telling other people's stories, about getting to the truth of things because I want to chronicle what's happening because I understand that things are not static so because I write something today doesn't mean that facts might change

Starting point is 00:03:14 and therefore I might have to revisit because my audience comes to me, me because they see me as someone who they can trust. So my, I love this question. I think my because is about getting at the truth. I think I'm still that naive kid who was taught right from wrong, good from bad, truthful truth versus lies. And I still believe that, you know, the lies should be exposed. The bad should be exposed. opposed, but so should the good. So should those stories about, you know, people and things and issues that either people really care about or, more importantly, that they should care about

Starting point is 00:04:04 and they might not know about. Yeah. It's amazing. And all of those things that you literally just said, you're because is why you are my, my blueprint. And here's what I want to tell you look and you in the eye. And what made you different for me? You know, starting a podcast a year and a half ago, something I did not want to do. I started my podcast literally just to create YouTube content, right? And then Les Brown is one of my mentors and was like, no, you really should go all in. Damon Johnson's a mentor was like, you should go all in. So then I started looking at at other people, not to mimic people, but just to understand what podcasting was about. And what I started realizing, and there's a lot of podcasters, I'm going to hurt their feelings, but it was all

Starting point is 00:04:48 superficial. I was hearing stories already new, right? Like, I wasn't gaining much. There was not a lot of insight. And so then I just said, you know what? One of the people that I listen to on TV is Jonathan K. Part because he draws people in, right? Like, he's going to get to what you call the truth. He's going to go to a deeper story, a more connected story. And I think that you're able to do that because of the last thing I said, your connection. Like, you really connect with people. You connect with the story and you're able to bring things out that people just don't normally see, right?

Starting point is 00:05:22 Like, again, what's going on in the world today? Everybody can report it. Everybody can talk about it. But you bring the story to life because there's an energy inside of you that you can create and connect the dots. And that's why you are my blueprint. Like, you taught me how to, hey, Mick, take. your time, understand, and really connect with people, because when there's genuine connection,

Starting point is 00:05:46 right, the story's going to live and the story's naturally going to come out. I don't need a script of questions. I asked Jonathan about it's because, and I hear that story. And now that leads me to where I want to go. Nothing scripted. There's nothing pre-planned. And I have to thank you for that, man, because you showed me how to do that. Oh, wow. Well, thank you. You know, at the root of that, that connection you're talking about, is curiosity. Yeah. You know, you have to be in these jobs, in these roles, especially as a, as a podcaster,

Starting point is 00:06:20 because we're in people's ears. It's one of the most intimate experiences that a person can have. And so because it's so, it's so personal and so, and so intimate, you know, being curious about the other person or being curious about the subject. And, you know, I will have some preset questions just as a safety net. But if someone says something that is interesting, I'm going to go there. Exactly. I'm totally going to go there because that is what makes it interesting.

Starting point is 00:06:56 And also, because we're doing this face to face, you know that it's also a matter of not so much of what the person is saying, but how they're saying it. If you notice that as they're saying something, that there's a twitch or suddenly their eyes start glistening, as soon as I see that, as soon as I hear the quiver and the voice, to me, just on a human level, I think, what's that about? Let me ask what that's about. And I have seen in real time interviews that started out sort of kind of cold and dry. like the interviewee is just oh my god here's another interview with another person and so i'm just going to get through this but it you can just feel the tenor and tone and move a mood of the conversation change when i probe that emotion that i'm getting from that person and it's a completely new conversation suddenly that person is alive and they want to talk more and suddenly

Starting point is 00:08:04 you realize, oh, well, we're out of time. Yeah. That is the beauty of sitting across from another person and talking to them about what it is that they've written or the policy that they've proposed or the art that they've created. The interview is not about me. It's about them. And that's what makes it so much fun. And that was the other thing that I picked up from you is, especially from a podcast. perspective. No one wants to hear Mick talk for 30, 45 minutes, right? It has to be about the

Starting point is 00:08:39 guests. And so I make sure that I do a really good job of honoring the guest and really highlighting the things that they want to do. And again, I thank you for that because you taught me those things, man. You really did. So I want to know, like, hearing this, like, when did you know that this was a gift that you had? And I don't know if you know it's a gift. I'm going to tell you It's a gift. When did you know that this was what you were destined to be doing? Wow. I, you know, I don't know. It's easy for me to pinpoint when I knew I wanted to be a journalist. When, you know, that first, that very first step that put me on this journey, I know you've read it when those moments were. But in terms of understanding what you call this gift,

Starting point is 00:09:30 um maybe it was i mean it had to have been within the last 10 years maybe i mean i started the podcast my um podcast at the washington post in 2016 and that was an outgrowth of live events that i was doing and understanding how much i love doing live events yeah one because you can see the person face to face but then the interaction with the audience You know, trying to come up with ways to not only pull the interviewee in, but to also pull the audience in and try to figure out ways to get a reaction from them that will also be part of the dynamic. I mean, I don't know when I realize that, but I do know that at some point, you know, Mick, I remember once I was at a low point, you know, during my career. And I think this was around

Starting point is 00:10:33 either just before the pandemic or during the pandemic. And I was just feeling funky and feeling like I was doing all these things and nothing was just nothing was jelling. And I was in the shower and suddenly I just said out loud I am damn good at what I do.

Starting point is 00:10:58 And it was just, this, I don't know, what compelled me to say it. Yeah. But this much I know, Mick, and I'm glad you asked me this question, the moment I said that out loud to myself in the privacy of my own shower is when everything changed. Literally everything changed. It's when, you know, more live events started coming. It's when I started doing more things with Washington Post Live.

Starting point is 00:11:28 It's when I started doing more things than MSNBC. It's when everything started clicking because suddenly I was not keeping this to myself. I said it out loud. I gave it agency. And I allowed myself, by saying that out loud, I allowed myself to believe in myself. And I noticed that once I did it, I stood up straighter. my shoulders were you know were back and conversations I had with people from that moment on were not about oh please let me do this or you know sure it was like no I want to do this

Starting point is 00:12:11 this is how this is how this is how I work yeah this is how I mean I understand you've got your thing that you want me to do this this is how I do it and I guarantee you this is going to be terrific. Trust me. Absolutely. I totally am a believer in self-affirmations, positive affirmations, because we're going to go through so much in a given week, a given month, some people in a given day, right? That if you don't believe in yourself, it's going to be harder for other people to believe in you. And I know that that's also something that is almost like a pillar of core value for you too is that that self-belief, that courage, the being able to, I don't want to say take a risk, right, but to believe that you're taking steps in the right direction, right? Like reading this book

Starting point is 00:13:03 and we're going to go there in a moment. Like, I see all of who you are in this book, man. And it's just amazing. Totally amazing. You know, Mick, as you were talking in this part of the conversation, And do you know the Wiz, the Diana Ross version with Michael Jackson, the movie? Yeah, ease on down the road. Right. Well, there's another song in there that is one of my favorites. And when I listen to it, it gets me here because it is a mantra and it is believe in yourself. You know, Lena Horn when she's singing that song.

Starting point is 00:13:44 and it's a great song and then you start listening to the words and you start I started internalizing them and when I feel there have been moments when I felt low and I'll put that on and there's just

Starting point is 00:14:00 something so uplifting about it reassuring and then when you follow it with Diana Ross singing home well I'm a I'm a blubbery mess after that but to me it is it is the power of those words and that art that again you are absolutely right if you don't

Starting point is 00:14:23 believe in yourself you're not going to be able to do anything or as ruPaul says if you can't love yourself how in the hell are you going to love somebody else it's all it's all mixed in right absolutely and I think that's the perfect segue to the books I'm going to hold it up for all the viewers. Yet here I am. Lessons from a black man search for home segueing from the song from Diana Ross, right? So I got a copy of the book. Your team sent me a copy and I was frozen. Just the title in and of itself, yet here I am. I was like, oh, we're going to church, right? Because you know, I knew you spent some time in the Carolinas. I live in the Carolinas now. You know what church is like down here. And yet here I am. I was.

Starting point is 00:15:12 I was like, there is a sermon in this title. And then I opened the book and we start going there, man. So, like, my first question for you about the book is more of talk to us about the because of the book. Like, why did you say, I've got to write this memoir. I've got to write this book. Like, people need to know this. Like, what was your passion behind saying, I'm going to put pen to paper? So during the first Trump administration, things were.

Starting point is 00:15:42 not great in the country. And as an opinion writer who writes about national politics, I mean, it was distressing, dismaying what was happening to the country. And I needed a break. And I decided all these stories in my head from my summers down south in North Carolina, 12 summers I spent with my maternal grandparents. My maternal grandmother was a Jehovah's Witness. So going to Catholic school in the north and then coming down south and going witnessing with my Jehovah's Witness grandmother. And the things that I saw and the things that I learned and the people I met, those stories stayed with me.

Starting point is 00:16:26 They just churned in my head. And I thought this one particular weekend in 2017, all right, now's the time to stop thinking about these and just getting them down on paper. in pixels on the computer screen. And I spent all weekend just writing what became the Down South chapter, which in the book has been split up into two or three separate chapters. But I sent them, sent the chapters to a bunch of people, but three people in particular were very encouraging.

Starting point is 00:17:01 Tamron Hall, April Ryan, enjoy read. And they all said, wow, you have a story to tell. Keep going. April Ryan, in particular, was relentless. It's like, are you still writing? You have to tell your story. People need to know your story. And so I kept going. And there were three authors along the way who really were my sort of guardian angels in all this. In 1999, 2000, I read Catherine Graham's memoir, Personal History. Catherine Graham was the owner, publisher of the Washington Post, the most powerful woman in journalism, one of the most powerful people in the country. And yet she wrote this memoir that was so revealing, so personal, so raw and honest and open, I thought, whoa, this powerful woman put all her stuff out there for us to read and for us to take in.

Starting point is 00:18:06 And I thought, I like this. This is the kind of memoir I want to read. Fast forward 20 years. I read Charles Blow's memoir, Fire Shut Up in My Bones. Again, raw, open, honest, introspective. And it showed me where the passion came from in Charles's columns for the New York Times. So now you have these two diametrically opposed people. one gay, one straight, one black, one white, one male, one female, one in, you know, in the later end of her of her career in life, the other one sort of smack in the middle.

Starting point is 00:18:49 And I thought, if ever I write a book, that's my guide. And then when I started writing, my friend Richie Jackson, who had just finished writing his book, Gay Like Me, a letter from a father to his son, he said to me, Jonathan, Remember, put yourself on every page. You have to put yourself on every page for the reader. And so as I wrote, it was important for me that I had these stories to tell. I had these lessons that I've learned in my life that I wanted to share with the reader. But I also felt that I needed to be open and honest and raw about my failure. my failures and shortcomings as I was about or am about my triumphs. But it's the failures and shortcomings where all the big lessons come in.

Starting point is 00:19:46 And so I couldn't, I mean, there's a chapter with a title that's two expletives. Like it's bleeped out. Yep. But it is a five-year period where everything just went to hell. Personal relationships, professional relationships. And it was bad. Yeah. But I share all that because, you know what, make people see me on television.

Starting point is 00:20:14 They, people fill in the holes. Right. They come up with, oh, this must be his life story because I see this and I hear this. And so I think I know, I think I know him. I think I can peg him. Usually critics absolutely think they know who I am. And this book is filling in all those holes, especially for those folks who think, oh, you think you know me? Oh, get ready.

Starting point is 00:20:48 Did you know I pumped gas for two summers at a Sonoco station in Wildwood, New Jersey? Did you know I got so jammed up in a job that I had to, you know, quickly figure out a departure? I mean, I have been through some things and you need to know this, but I want to share this because no matter who you are, I am certain that I have written something here that you have either gone through or are going through or might go through or know someone who's, and I guess I view myself in service in a lot of ways. And if I've learned this lesson, I feel duty bound to share. Here's what I learned. Here are my observations. And so if you find yourself in this situation, here's how I went through it. And see how what I did and what I thought and what I went through matches or not what you're going through.

Starting point is 00:21:57 And maybe it can help. I love it. Yet here I am. Right. Yeah, here I am. You know, one of the things that I did not know about you that you talk about a little bit in the book was like, you were told you had a low IQ, right? Like, like, taught us about that. And then how obviously that that isn't true and that wasn't true, but just talked us a little bit about that, like being labeled because one of the things that, and I have family members, my sister, sister-in-law are both educators. And it's not. them, but I think the education system labels people before society and the world labels people, right? So talk us a little bit about that. Well, shoot, society labels us, meaning African Americans and certainly black men and boys before we even had a chance to even know who we are. So, you know, we moved from Newark, predominantly black city, to North Plainfield, New Jersey, and then Hazlitt, New Jersey, where I went

Starting point is 00:23:02 where I became, like, the only one in a classroom. And my mother, being a daughter of the Jim Crow South, came up north. She said to me, on the first day of school in North Plainfield and then in Haslett, she said to me, listen, they, you are not taking vocational education. They will push us into those. You are taking college prep classes. and if anyone tries to do otherwise, you let me know. And I will go to the school. So there's that.

Starting point is 00:23:39 Then, you know, as I write in the book, we had these weeks where it was like, no instruction today, we're going to do these tests. And, you know, my God, these tests with the number two pencil and those ovals so tiny that I got stressed out. I'm like, I'm going to make sure that this whole oval, because I want to make sure if this answer counts.

Starting point is 00:24:03 Right. So the guidance counselor, I have a meeting with him and I want to talk about, you know, how should I be thinking about college and am I taking all the right courses? And he says to me,

Starting point is 00:24:14 pulls out this paper, and he says, you see that number there? That's your IQ. And I don't even know what the number was. And I was okay. And he said, I'm confused because

Starting point is 00:24:30 Because that's a low IQ, yet your coursework is outstanding. I don't understand how that is. And so, you know, this says you will not be going to college. And I thought, oh. What I took from that, though, but he said, but your coursework is great. So not sure what the discrepancy is. well, I know what the discrepancy is now. I don't test well.

Starting point is 00:25:02 Right. You tell me this is a life or death test, and I freeze up. Right. Just don't tell me it's a life or death test. I would do better on a pop quiz than I would on one of those standardized tests with the tiny ovals. Right. And so what that showed me was, of course, in hindsight, in retrospect, that they were gearing up to track me in a different way. And when I got to high school, when I went to Raritan high school,

Starting point is 00:25:34 they didn't put me in vocational ed classes, but they did. My home room, the place I went to every morning to start my day was in the shop. And that was the place in school then. That was known as the hangout and home of the kids not going to college, the burnouts, the troublemakers. And I sat in this room. All my friends were in other classrooms, home rooms with the with the desk that you today, you have to kind of squeeze in. Can't believe he actually sat in these little desks. And when the bell went off, I ran out of that room as fast as I could to join my friends. But yeah, that. And what's interesting, Mick, is when I read

Starting point is 00:26:21 Michelle Obama's book Becoming, when I read Valerie Jarrett's book Finding My Voice, to read the similar experiences that they went through with this same thing, with people telling them, well, you're not

Starting point is 00:26:38 going to college, or you're not going to Princeton, or you're not going to Harvard, or you won't be able to do that. And I thought this, I knew this happened, but I didn't know that It's so widespread that a former first lady of the United States, former senior advisor to the president of the United States, went through the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. It's like full circle, man. And, you know, I told you offline, I'm on chapter 12, native New Yorker. And you got me with a line in there. You said New York is like an M&M. It's hard on the outside. Soft.

Starting point is 00:27:20 on the inside. And I saw the line before I even got deeper into the chapter and I called like two of my buddies. So one, Kenny Anderson, former basketball player from New York. And I was like, Kenny, I just heard the truth about New York. Man, y'all just hard on the outside, but soft on the inside. Give folks some context into your meaning of that of hard on the outside, soft on the inside. So I didn't, I didn't come up with that analogy until I left New York until I came to Washington. Because, you know, New Yorkers believe every word of that song, New York, New York. If I can make it there, I can make it anywhere. And I got to Washington and Washington was like, no, you're not. It's just a completely different way of being here in Washington.

Starting point is 00:28:07 And that got me reflecting about New York. New York's reputation is, it's harsh. I mean, New Yorkers are mean, the city is crazy. It's chaotic. It's dirty. it's all these things and so people are intimidated by new york new york by design intimidates people yeah but new york becomes home to those people who dare to engage it and so with an m&m it's hard on the outside and some people are like oh no no i can't do it it's a great

Starting point is 00:28:43 It's a great way to screen out the serious from the tourists. And so the tourists, and by tourists, I mean the folks who actually are there as tourists, and then the people who come to me, oh, I'm going to give it a try. And then, oh, my God, this is so hard. I'm leaving. And then it's the people who decide, okay, I like M&Ms. I pop some in my mouth. Yeah, that hard shell is hard.

Starting point is 00:29:09 But then I just broke the shell. All I had to do is try. And that's the beautiful thing about New York. All you have to do is try. And if you throw yourself into the crazy mix that is New York City, everybody's on top of each other. You've got the super wealthy. You've got the very poor. And they're all in the five boroughs, all trying to lead a successful life.

Starting point is 00:29:38 However, they define it. They are creative. They are go-getters. They are busting their humps to live in this wildly chaotic, expensive city. And when you bite into, you get into the softness on the inside and you tool around and you start noticing patterns. You start noticing that actually this city of 8 million people is actually a series of small towns. Yeah. And you start figuring that out.

Starting point is 00:30:12 when you start mapping, here's where I live, here's where I work, here's where I go grocery shopping, here's where I drop off my dry cleaning, here's where I might go to school or go to the movie theater. And because of your routine, you start seeing some of the same people. You start noticing the patterns. New York City now isn't this big, unmanageable place. It is now this your small your small piece of the city that is your town and the other beautiful thing about New York is

Starting point is 00:30:51 no one really no one knows like in Washington it's all about what you do where do you work who do you work for and in New York I still have friends in New York City I know they go someplace to work but I don't know exactly what they do because our friendship is based on we might like the same movies or we might like the same restaurants or you have these

Starting point is 00:31:17 concentric circles of friends and the beauty of New York is bringing people from the various circles together who might not know each other. And so that to me is why I love New York so much the beauty of New York and why I am perfectly fine with people being intimidated by New York because not everybody, New York's not for everybody. I get that, but New York is for everybody who gives it a shot. I love it. You just got to bite through the show. Got to keep going, right?

Starting point is 00:31:50 Yeah, it's so easy. But I did also hear, just because you made it in New York, it doesn't mean you can make it everywhere. I want everybody to understand that, too. All my New Yorkers. Oh, yeah. Mick, you know how many New Yorkers? I've been in Washington 18 years.

Starting point is 00:32:04 You know how many New Yorkers I have seen. moved to Washington and then high tail it back to the year within two years, if not sooner. You know, during the Obama, when President Obama was first elected, I had a lot of people from New York, but other cities, they were told to call me

Starting point is 00:32:26 to find out what New York was, what Washington was like. And my question to them was always, did you like high school? only one person of all the people who I asked that question said yes but everyone else said oh my god I hated high school and I said well buckle up because you're not going to like Washington this is a giant high school filled with the smartest

Starting point is 00:32:53 most aggressive people you have ever met this is every college class president varsity sports player all these folks this is where they're this is where they come and you you just need you need to be ready it's funny you say that

Starting point is 00:33:17 because I told someone almost the same thing I said go back to your year book and like the most likely to succeed the class president the class clown like that's what Washington DC is it is so funny you said that because that's I tell people about D.C.

Starting point is 00:33:34 Oh, yeah. No, it is absolutely true. Wow. Well, Jonathan, I know you're very busy. The world has a lot going on that you need to go talking right about today. Give me one more question, Mick.

Starting point is 00:33:46 This is too much fun. One last question for you then. If you could spend a day with any person at any place, who would the person and where would the place be? oh wow you know the first name that popped into my head was me that is so awesome okay sorry the first person that popped into my head was michel obama okay now i've i have had

Starting point is 00:34:20 i have spent time with her um but it's never been long enough and what i would love to do is for the two of us to go to lunch wherever she wants to go. If she said Chicago, Washington, New York, Rome, Paris, I would go and just sit and talk. Yeah. That's what I would love to do. Amazing. Well, I think that should happen. I think that should happen.

Starting point is 00:34:53 I'm a ask. Hey. It's always a no until you ask, right? Right. There you go. I also learned that from you. See, look at that. Look at that. Well, Jonathan, where can everyone buy the book? Where do you want us to purchase it from? You can purchase it wherever books are sold. But you know what? If you have a local bookstore, support the local bookstore. Go into the local bookstore. Ask them if they have it. If they don't have it, ask them to order it. There you go. And here I am. You know where to go. there you go yeah here i am all right jonathan where can people find and follow you i am at k part j on instagram on threads uh i was going to say twitter but don't don't go there it's no fun um

Starting point is 00:35:44 but yes at k part j at k part j i'll make sure i have links to all of that there jonathan again i just personally want to thank you for all that you do all that you stand for and the leg that I know you're continuing to build. I appreciate you, brother. Nick, I, I, you honor me with those words. Um, thank you so much for inviting me to come on your podcast and, and just, thank you. You got it.

Starting point is 00:36:15 You got it, brother. And for all the viewers and listeners, remember your because is your superpower. Go unleash it. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick, If today hits you hard, then imagine what's next. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and share this with someone who needs it. And most of all, make a plan and take action, because the next level is already waiting for you. Have a question or insight to share?

Starting point is 00:36:44 Send us an email to hello at mickunplugged.com. Until next time, ask yourself how you can step up. Thank you.

Mick Unplugged - Jonathan Capehart: Lessons in Truth, Connection, and Self-Belief

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