Mick Unplugged - Revealing the Secret to Creative Success with Tim Gunn

Starting point is 00:00:00 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another exciting episode, Mick Unplugged, and today I have someone who I call The Goat. He is the style guru who turned critique into compassion, the mentor who made Made It Work, a mantra for Exxon. He's inspired millions with his authenticity, but most importantly, his clapped. Please welcome the refined, the fearless, the iconic Tim Gunn. Tim, I don't know. Mick, I've never had such a lovely introduction. Thank you so much. You're very, very generous.

Starting point is 00:00:40 I'm generous, but you've had these introductions before, Tim. You're not going to fool me. Not like this. You could say it, but you can't fool me. Tim, you are an icon, and I truly mean that. What you've done, the change in the eyes that you've allowed to come into your industry and into the world, speaks volumes for the class. the character that you have. I tell people all the time, it's easy to stand on the shoulders of giants. It's hard to be the shoulder that people stand on and you are that shoulders. So thank you, well, thank you. Absolutely. So Tim, I'd love to know what is your because, right? Like when people ask what's your why, it's pretty easy. And then I say, well, Tim, why are they your why? And you usually start with because something. That's true. So I love to know for you, like for the world, what's your because? Why do you keep doing the things that you do?

Starting point is 00:01:38 Well, I have to say what guides me is doing the right thing and doing what's right for with whom you're engaging and having empathy and compassion and making no assumptions. It was my approach to teaching for 32 years. I ask a lot of questions. I pummel my students with questions as I do with the designers and project runway because you need to have a context before you can even begin to respond. And also, you need to know what that individual's goals are or if it's a group, what the group's goals are.

Starting point is 00:02:16 And are they meeting those goals? And how can one help them do that? Absolutely, absolutely. And Tim, one of the reasons that I admire you the way that I do. you became a household name in an unapologetically kind of cut-throat industry. Yes, I agree. How did you develop the courage to lead with empathy rather than ego when most of the people out there in your industry, it's ego-driven, but you're quite the opposite. It's an industry filled with narcissists. It's incomprehensible in some ways.

Starting point is 00:02:56 Well, for one thing, I was very well grounded before Project Runway. I had been at Parsons for, oh, God, 18 years. Wow. And I learned a lot through the process of teaching, and it was a school of hard knocks for me. You learn quickly what your students respond positively to and what they don't. And if they perceive you to be inauthentic, insincere, or just plain mean spirit, they shut you out. And that means no one moves forward. I can't help them. They don't want me. So I learn quickly. You have to think carefully about how the other individual or group,

Starting point is 00:03:41 but in this case, the individual will respond to what you're saying. So I try to rehearse things in my head and think, if I were on the receiving end of these words and this intonation, how would I respond? And I have to say, too. I try to avoid as much as possible telling people what to do. I mean, I will say with my students, I could on Project Runway. I really wasn't supposed to. So for me, to ask enough questions in a way that will get that individual to see what I'm seeing is a great thrill to experience. And then it's up to them what they do. People ask me all the time. Do you feel guilty when a Project Runway designer goes home?

Starting point is 00:04:30 No, just as I don't take any credit for their success when they win. It's their work, it's their decision-making, and I firmly believe in that. I will say this, though, about being a teacher versus being a mentor. And I learned this, the big difference during season one, episode one of Project Runway. The designers were making their work. And one of the designers came to me and said, I'm having trouble threading the bobbin. So I said, well, let me help. And I'm sitting behind the sewing machine.

Starting point is 00:05:09 I'm threading the bobbin. And our executive producer, Jane Lipsitz, is knocking on the door of the sewing room. And Tim, can I see you? Can you step outside for a minute? So I did. And she said, what are you doing? I said, what do you mean? What am I doing?

Starting point is 00:05:25 I'm threading a bobbin. said, listen, if you thread the bobbin for this designer, you have to thread the bobbin for every designer for every episode. She said, it's a fairness issue. And I said, I'm out of here. I'm not going to be hog tied to that particular set of circumstances that with my students in a classroom, Mick, I can say to them, no, you're not going to use three-ply cashmere. This is a prototype that you're making, use heavy-duty muslin or whatever. But on Project Runway was very important to keep an even playing field and to keep fairness in mind about all things. And I have to say, too, in a classroom situation, fairness is an issue as well. You want to give people equal time

Starting point is 00:06:15 and a critique. And you also want to nurture the shrinking violets, the people who, really are shy and reticent to contribute and make them feel comfortable. And when I had lecture classes and I did, I, and I'll tell you, I abhor lecturing. I don't even like the word because it sounds so pedantic. Right. But I would never have a class with more than 25 or 30 students. And I would have us arrange our desks in a circle. So everyone has the same line of access to everyone else.

Starting point is 00:06:54 And there isn't a hierarchy, who's in the front of the class, who's in the back of the class. And it really worked, and it made people feel more comfortable. I mean, the very shy, reticent ones had to get over it because they wanted to recede into the background. And the vocal loud mouse learned that they had to play nicely with others. And it really, it helped tremendously. So whenever I see a classroom with lines of desks and rows, I think, oh, this is a potential. potential abomination here. Tim, I've always wanted to ask you this.

Starting point is 00:07:30 Again, been a huge fan of you for a long time. And for the outsiders like myself, right? Fashion changes fast. Yes. You teach, however, that people should find their truth, right? Because personal style is timeless. Oh, absolutely. So how do you balance that with personal style that should be timeless?

Starting point is 00:07:53 timeless, but the fashion industry that changes like every two days. Oh, I know. It's a great frustration, but one that I've come to terms with and I accept. I tell people all the time, as you're saying, find out who you are, how you like to dress, how you look your best is what's so very important because when we look our best, we navigate the world with great competence. And when we don't feel competent, it's demonstrated through our body language, how we interact with people. So I tell people all the time, don't chase trends. If there's something that's

Starting point is 00:08:29 trending in fashion that you really respond to, fine, embrace it. But otherwise, just turn the other cheek, ignore it. And I say this all the time. And when I've been on shows like Good Morning America, for instance, and Robin Roberts wants to know, what should I go out and buy? And I say, I don't know that you should go out and buy anything. In fact, you should probably do a closet an inventory and analyze what it is that you wear all the time, what you're not wearing, you'll probably find items that have price tags on them, and ask yourself, why? For instance, as men, you know, now baggy clothes are in, baggy jeans, baggy tops, and I don't think we look our best.

Starting point is 00:09:14 I think we look our best when our clothes fit us. I'm not talking about pants that fit like a legging, but clothes that follow our our silhouette and our and acknowledge our proportions. So I'm very critical of where things are right now with menswear and don't even get me started in a women's wear. I don't understand most of what's happening. And speaking of women's wear in these award shows, the Venice Film Festival and various other things, what's with this pants, pantsless look?

Starting point is 00:09:46 What is this? It's vulgar. It's repugnant. Who wants to see that much stuff? stuff. Not me. No, nor I. I can go on a tirade about these things.

Starting point is 00:09:59 I always make the distinction between what you're saying about fashion, a distinction between fashion and clothes. Fashion by definition needs to change. And it changes because fashion is really like most art, a barometric gauge of our society and culture. It has to do with what headlines are people reading. what websites that are visiting, the podcasts that they're listening to, the political climate, God help us, and really everything that is part of our society and culture.

Starting point is 00:10:34 And clothing doesn't have to change. And I say this with the greatest respect, because I own a lot of their product. I'm always citing the LL Bean Catalog. It's basically unchanged for decades. And they're great clothes, but their clothes, they're not fashion. And I say that very respectfully. Yeah. Well, Tim, you kind of just hurt my feelings.

Starting point is 00:10:58 Oh, no. Tell me. So in the 90s, early 2000s, you know, everybody was going back into the skinny gene thing, right? Like, when I was in high school, it was baggy. And I understood that was school. That wasn't my professional book. I've been losing weight so I could get into what I thought was the fashion trend of skinny, like, extra medium European cut slacks and suits.

Starting point is 00:11:26 And now you're telling me that baggy is in. I don't know what I'm supposed to say. Oh, no, no, no. That's what I'm saying. Ignore the trends. The industry is saying you need to wear these baggy clothes. Well, also it's a conspiracy, co-conspiracy, conspiracy between fashion and retail. They want us to buy stuff.

Starting point is 00:11:43 And if we have a, and I love the fit of my clothes. I'm not buying the baggy stuff. I'm wearing what I wear because I also, I know I, I look my best. And I'm always saying about clothes with a lot of volume, the more volume your clothes have, the more volume you appear to have. It doesn't look as though, oh, there's a really skinny person in there. We really don't know the size and shape of the person in there. We just know that the clothes are really big. Mm. Mm. Absolutely. No, go with your European tailoring, Mick. Please. I feel better now. I feel better. No, you should. No, honestly, we,

Starting point is 00:12:21 I'm sticking to my wardrobe. I'm not going out and buying the stuff. And also, I have a small New York apartment. There's only so much room for things. There you go. There you go. You know, Tim, as someone who's taught thousands, you've been talking about teaching a lot.

Starting point is 00:12:40 What's one common mental block that creatives and early slash entry-level designers have? And then more importantly, how do you help them push through that? Well, in my experience, the one common denominator to not achieving your goals and potentially even failing is it's one thing. It's stubbornness. It's not allowing information in. It's not allowing for a constructive dialogue about what's happening with your work. And it's a huge stumbling block. I can recall the first, I'll call it, I'll these, collection that the singers in the Department of Fashion Design were executing when I was the chair there.

Starting point is 00:13:27 I got rid of the former senior construct, introduced this thesis, and there were 70 students, and we had a jury show to determine who would actually be in the annual fashion show, which has always been a big fundraiser for Parsons. And there were 14 students who didn't get in. And I know, met with all 70 singers and I told them who was in, well, who had a whole collection and only 12 students, who had one or two items in and the bulk of them, and who wasn't in at all? And I said to the 14 of them, it's not that your concept was bad. It wasn't that your execution was, well, it's not that your concept was bad, though it may have been. And it wasn't that your execution was bad, though it may have been, or inadequate, I should say.

Starting point is 00:14:20 There is one comment, or and also for the jury show, the students had to do an installation of eight to ten looks. And in some cases, it wasn't that the installation was offbeat. There's one common denominator, stubbornness. All 14 of you heard feedback for eight months, and you just completely ignored it. it. And I said, this isn't retribution to say you're not on the show. The jury decided, but I said, the jury didn't know what went on behind the scenes or what went on for the previous seven and a half months. They just knew what they saw in the Parsons Auditorium, and this is

Starting point is 00:15:07 how they voted. And I have respect for that. But in my analysis, asking why these 14, this is the common denominator, stubbornness. Hmm. That's interesting. And I want to take it a step further, especially these are the words of Mick and Mick only. So Tim is not saying this. But with some of the younger gen, whatever we're on now,

Starting point is 00:15:33 Z, L.O. I don't know either. But Tim, you once said silence is the death of any relationship. So for people, that are just so used to everything's on the phone and this is how they communicate. How do you teach people, whether it's in a classroom or you're just, you're mentoring folks, on how and why clear communication has shaped who you are and can shape who others are? That's an excellent question. My most recent teaching was at Emerson College at Boston. I was there for five semesters.

Starting point is 00:16:15 And I had had a hiatus from Parsons. I left in 2007. So it was, oh, a good 12 years that I've been gone from the classroom. And I had to tell you, I was a nervous wreck about what this new generation would be like and would present. And I found out, because I have, of course, I have a lot of colleagues who are in the academic world and they're teaching. I found out that I was very blessed to have the Emerson students that I had because they wowed me. They made me feel so positive about the future. They were so thoughtful, so extremely articulate.

Starting point is 00:17:04 Cell phones weren't going off in the class. And I don't like delivering mandates. Like, put your phones away. I didn't need to. They just did. With Amex Platinum, $400 in annual credits for travel and dining means you not only satisfy your travel bug, but your taste buds too. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Conditions apply.

Starting point is 00:17:29 But I will also say reflecting upon past teaching, I think it's very important to make each student feel that they're part of the solution of advancing the class, moving things forward. When I first started to teach back in 1978, I thought I had to be the answer man. I thought, and this is it before Google, or I could have just gone into a closet and Googled it. But it made me extremely nervous thinking, I'm responsible for all the content and for being able to answer believably the student's questions. And I thought, I don't have all the answers. I mean, there's no, there's, it's, it's not possible.

Starting point is 00:18:14 So it took me, oh, several years to realize that what I really need to do is just turn this back on the students. Great question for the next class. I want, one, one each of you to research this and come with an answer or with a point of departure for us to discuss. And what's most important here is I want you to come with an answer you think no one else will have, which meant that they had to do a deep dive. Couldn't just be a superficial Wikipedia lookup. They had to do a deep dive, and it really worked. And the students felt not only invested,

Starting point is 00:18:49 there was this enthusiasm about sharing this information, and where'd you get that from? How did you find that out? And I loved the fact that it just enlivened what can become a rather dampened academic experience. So I really believe that turning this onto the young people and saying you're part of the solution here, you're not a bird and a nest and I'm feeding you worms. You are responsible for your education. And I will also say, I would begin every semester this way, I want you to know you're responsible for 70% of the heavy living class.

Starting point is 00:19:34 I'm here for 30% of it. You're here for seven. And I also want you to know, in my world, the squeaky wheel does not get increased. So don't even think about squeaking. Love it. Love it. Love it, love it. You know, Tim, earlier when I introed you, I talked about the mantra, make it work.

Starting point is 00:19:56 Talk to the listeners and viewers about that a little bit, about where it came from. I mean, I know why it's so powerful. just how that's just become Tim Gunn? Well, thank you, Mick. It happened in a Parsons classroom. I was teaching a 30-week course in senior year concept development. And the students spend the first six to eight weeks of that course developing the concept for this final collection.

Starting point is 00:20:24 And then they spend the remainder of the time seeing it through. In my class, it's all on paper. There's a corresponding class in which they're making it three-dimensionally. and of course other classes that they're taking. But for the construction course and for my concept course, it's 30 weeks. So it's now April. And one of my students says, I'm changing everything. What are you talking about changing everything?

Starting point is 00:20:50 I've been working on this for months. Oh, I don't like it anymore. It doesn't appeal to me. I really want to do something else. And I said, well, you're not. you're not doing something else you're going to sit with this conundrum that you have you're going to offer up a diagnosis of what's going awry what's wrong and then you're going to offer up a prescription for how to make it work and that's where it was born and i thought

Starting point is 00:21:21 it was very useful and i said to her you know i could let you start all over again and what if it's a smashing success then what have you actually learned to abandon something and start again, it could also be a big disaster, something that you really dislike and wish that you had gone back and continued the trajectory of what you were doing originally. So by making you do this, and I am making you do it, you will develop problem solving skills that have gone on touch within you. And it will help you with the next problem you have to solve and the one after that, because life is all about problem solved. And the more whipped you are to do with that, the more successfully.

Starting point is 00:22:05 I love it. I love it. You know, Tim, before I get you out of here with my rapid fire, I want to give you the floor. Like, what does Tim Gunn have going on now? Well, quasi-retirement, which I have to tell you, Mick, I am the luckiest guy in the world for so many reasons. and one of them is I am I've never been bored a day in my life there's so much that I enjoy doing and so many things that that pull it more my heartstrings and I live in New York which is just there's a wealth of things here even if you don't do anything you know what's going on right

Starting point is 00:22:43 outside and I have to tell you we all know these are tough times in this nation and my source of purging and catharsis and enlightenment and inspiration is quite frankly the Metropolitan Museum of Art on there at least once a week. This week I'm there twice for two special tours. But it really reminds me of the triumph of the human spirit and what we can achieve. And it's

Starting point is 00:23:15 just enormously inspirational for me. And I'm enjoying being with you and I just I feel tremendously lucky and very, very blessed, I have to say. Well, today I'm definitely the lucky one. So again, I want to thank you for all that you've done and what you just mean for culture, what you mean as a mentor to people. I can thank you enough, Tim, but I just wanted to look you in your eyes and just tell you. deeply flattered, Mick. Thank you. And in return, I'm so grateful to you for what you do and what you share with people. Thank you so much. So you're not getting out of here without doing this quick five, though. Okay. I saw you try to delay it. I love to delay it. What is your

Starting point is 00:24:10 favorite fashion error? Oh, the 1960s. I didn't even have to finish it, the 60s. Love it. What's the most surprising item in your closet right now? I'll be honest with you. And I will add, I have never worn them, a pair of black leather jeans. Ooh, like Eddie Murphy's Delirious? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And that was something I thought about for a long time and finally purchased, but again, I've never worn them. I have to tell you that a funny anecdote. I was in a luggy brown jeans store probably, I don't know, 15 years ago. And there was a pair of waxed cotton, black cotton jeans. And when you see waxed cotton, it looks like leather. And I thought, wow, this really appeals to me. And I don't know what it is about leather jeans. I probably

Starting point is 00:25:06 need to say a doctor or something. But I held these jeans up. And I asked the salesperson, am I too old to wear these? He didn't hesitate. And he said, yes. You have to love honesty. So I think of that when I look at the jeans hanging in my, the leather jeans in my closet thinking, I can't go out of the street. I haven't even worn them in my own apartment. But they're there.

Starting point is 00:25:33 What's the biggest fashion faux pa that you see most people making that they should quit doing? Too much skin. The bare midriff is dreadful. Croped pants. They cut you off at the widest part of your calf, making your legs look shorter and stumpier. It's really too much skin. I'm not a fan of sleepless dresses,

Starting point is 00:25:58 unless you're Michelle Obama and you're wearing a stunning shift, but she can wear anything. Yeah, just too much skin in general. Okay, okay. For all my business leaders out there, male or female, what's one thing that we should be adding to our wardrobe that we don't think about? Well, I reflect upon this a lot, and I think it's a blazer in this day of more casual dressing.

Starting point is 00:26:26 And I can't believe I'm speaking to you without a tie on, but I thought, I'm going to do it. You're in your office or wherever you may be. If you have a blazer on the back of your door and you can put it on, it just presses everything else up that you're wearing and it makes you more presentable. it makes you more confident, I believe, and the person or people with whom you're interacting are going to be impressed with the fact that you dressed up in a manner of speaking. When I say blazer, I'm not necessarily talking about a navy blue blazer with brass buttons. It should be personalized. It could be a red patent leather blazer for that role that matters.

Starting point is 00:27:06 But just something that makes you look a little more polished. I love it. I love it. All right, Tim, last one. Guilty pleasure food. Oh, what you're going to? Every single solitary night. I have a microwave, a bag of microwave 100 calorie popcorn.

Starting point is 00:27:28 Okay. And it's, I love it. In fact, I just ordered a whole crate of more of it. Shout out to Orville Redenbacher because I know the bag you're talking about because, Tim, guess what mine is? is. What? Is it? Not every night, but a couple of nights a week.

Starting point is 00:27:49 You know, that's what I do. Because I don't feel bad about 100 calories. No, and I tried not to do it every night. And then I had these pangs, and I thought, why am I practicing the self-deprivation? Just have it. Yeah. And occasionally, I throw in a few pepper to farm goldfish, cheddar, and occasionally a few cashews or almonds, just to pepper it up.

Starting point is 00:28:17 But I'm an addict, and I'm proud of it. As you should be, as you should be. Tim, again, I appreciate you more than you know. This episode means a lot to me. My wife is a huge fan of yours, so I'm going to let her know. I got to talk to Tim, and you didn't. She's going to be okay with it. Please give your wife and your kids, my best.

Starting point is 00:28:41 Give them my love. And I'll be back in the city later this fall, so I'm going to reach out to you. I'd love to see you. Thank you. You got it. Tim, again, thank you so much. I'll make sure in the description and show notes, we have links to you all the things that you're doing and all your handles, and we'll get everybody following you. Thank you so much, Mick.

Starting point is 00:29:02 You got it. To all the viewers and listeners, remember your because is your superpower. Go Unleashing. You've been plugged into Mick Unplugged. Don't just listen, take action. Rate and subscribe, follow me on social and get the full experience at mithuntofficial.com. Keep building, keep leading, and most importantly, keep dominating.

Mick Unplugged - Revealing the Secret to Creative Success with Tim Gunn

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