Mick Unplugged - W. Kamau Bell & Glenn Singleton: Confronting Race: Courageous Conversations That Matter

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

What happens when two of America's most fearless voices on race come together for an unfiltered conversation? In this powerful episode, host Mick sits down with Emmy and Peabody-winning storyteller W. Kamau Bell and education equity architect Glenn Singleton to explore what drives their decades-long commitment to racial justice. The conversation dives deep into what Bell calls "the Black baton" – the generational responsibility passed down through families to make life better for those who come after. "When my grandparents handed the black baton to my parents, it was lighter than when they got it," Bell explains, describing his mission to ensure it doesn't become heavier during his lifetime. Singleton echoes this sentiment, sharing that his work stems from recognizing that his generation has "more than we've ever had" and feeling responsible to continue the progress. Both men offer practical wisdom about having these crucial conversations. Singleton breaks down his groundbreaking "Beyond Diversity" framework, celebrating its 30th anniversary, which begins with the fundamental question: "What impact does race have on my life?" Bell shares how he navigates these discussions with his three daughters, emphasizing that even his seven-year-old understands political realities in age-appropriate ways. "Justice is sometimes a thing you see that authority will tell you not to see," he explains, highlighting how he empowers his children to recognize injustice. Perhaps most valuable is their guidance for those hesitant to engage in race conversations for fear of saying something wrong. Bell suggests examining your social circle – are you surrounded by people who will lovingly "call you in" when you misspeak? Singleton adds that understanding the "paramount importance of racial justice" in American society is the starting point, followed by recognizing that "race is a symbol of power" with whiteness at the top of the hierarchy. Whether you're a parent trying to have these conversations with your children, a professional navigating workplace dynamics, or simply someone committed to building a more equitable society, this episode offers both inspiration and practical approaches to moving beyond comfort into the spaces where real change happens. Connect & Discover W. Kamau & Glenn: W. Kamau: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wkamaubell/ Website: https://www.wkamaubell.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wkamaubellofficial/ Substack: @wkamaubell Book: The Awkward Thoughts of W. Kamau Bell Glenn: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/courageousdove444/ Website: https://courageousconversation.com/ Book: Courageous Conversations About Race FOLLOW MICK ON: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mickunplugged/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mickunplugged/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MickUnpluggedPodcast LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mickhunt/ Website: https://www.mickhuntofficial.com Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mick-unplugged/

We have to do the first work of looking inward, right? And we have to ask that simple question of, you know, what impact does race have on my life? And what impact does my race have on my life? And as I look around my community, how is race playing out there? Welcome to MICK Unplugged, the number one podcast for self

improvement, leadership and relentless growth. No fluff, no filters, just heart hitting truths, unstoppable strategies and the mindset shifts that separate the best from the rest. Ready to break limits?

Let's go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another exciting episode of Mick Unplugged. And today I've got a special moment. I've got two guests and we're going to talk about it all. One is an Emmy and Peabody winning storyteller who uses comedy to confront culture. And the other is an education equity architect, redefining how we talk about race in America. Together, they're pushing past comfort

to spark the real change that we need today. Please join me in welcoming the brave, the brilliant, the uncompromising two guys that I look up to the most, W. Kamau Bell and Glenn Singleton. Gentlemen, how you both doing today? I mean, I know Glenn's used to those kind of intros, but I'm still getting used to them. So I know Glenn is like, that's exactly as it is.

Glenn actually sent me everything to say about him. I had a time. He was like, it has to be these do not sway from the text. Exactly. Just like this is not a from the text. Exactly. We need just like. This is not a suggestion. Right. If it doesn't go down this way, it's not going down at all. Yeah.

So, Glenn, I'm actually going to start with you. I, I like talking about your because that thing that's deeper than your why, right? Like Simon Sinek wrote a book, Start With Why. And I think everybody got stuck there, right? You start with why, but it's your because that really keeps you going. So again, Glenn, I'll start with you, man. If I were to say, what's your because today?

What's that purpose, that passion behind what you do? What is that? You know, what is so clear to me is that everybody who's looked like me has had this journey before me. When I think about coming all the way across the grounds of West Africa through the transatlantic slave trade, up through slavery, Jim Crow, all of these moments of oppression for people like us. When we get to to to my generation and we have more than we've ever had.

And and so I just feel like it can't fall apart with me. Wow. Wow, I love that. I love I'm taking some notes because I have a follow-up question on something you said, but come out, man. I'm going to give you the floor now. What is your because? Why do you continue to do what you do? I mean, the flippant and probably truest answer is because me and my wife have three kids and I can't just be like, good luck. I feel a responsibility to make sure that the world is as easy a place to navigate for my three daughters

as my three mixed race black daughters as possible. And I sort of think of it as the black baton. Like when my grandparents handed the black baton to my parents, it was lighter than when they got it, because they had gotten it from people who hadn't been that disconnected from enslavement. And then when my mom passed it to me and my dad passed it to me,

it was much lighter because they had gone through the civil rights movement and everything that that entailed there and pushed the black people forward, black folks forward. And now I got it, and I'm like, it might be heavier than when I hand it to my daughters. And so my goal right now is to sort of make sure that I do everything I can to make sure that when I hand them the black baton, that it's not heavier than it was when I got it, which is going to be a lot. But it but look, I got Glenn and you and other people working on that too. So I think the other thing is like, I grew up in a household where you sort of knew as a, you had two jobs, the job to put food on the table and the job

to make it easier on all the people who look like you, who couldn't get what you got. And there wasn't really a choice there. It was, no, it was just, it was just, it's what we do. So this is just, I think if I was a car mechanic, I'd be an anti-racist car mechanic. I just think this is just, I think if I was a car mechanic, I'd be an anti-racist car mechanic. I just think this is just a part of the deal. I love that man. I love that. And I'm going to tie that into the conversation. I wanted to have with you Glen and both you Kamau is this like Glen you said we have more

now than we've ever had, right? And I truly believe that. I also feel to that point, enough of us don't realize that, right? Because those are the things that aren't talked about, right? Like, and I'm not saying everyone and everything, but you know, we'll talk about Lil Wayne's album that just dropped in,

how good or great that wasn't, right? But we won't talk about- Nobody said it was good. Slow down, slow down, slow slow down nobody said it was good don't let's not let's not put it misinformation out there let's okay continue he said it was good okay whoever was in the production booth said it was good but glenn man so how do we spark those conversations internally so that we can have them externally? Because you do a brilliant job of that, right?

I mean, you're a consultant to Fortune 50 companies. Forget 100, right? How do you lead those conversations internally first so that we can have them outside? Well, when I talk about having so much, oftentimes we get hung up with the new shiny stuff, right? So absolutely, it takes less time for me to create the guidelines for conversation in these corporations now

because I've got friendly AI, okay? We never had that. Right. I even have cell phone when I was building this work at the beginning. Right. So this is this is three decades deep. And and so, you know, with those two, there's a whole group of people who have now flourish from these modern technologies and from, you know, the the hard work that the entertainers, the athletes, the corporate people have done before, and they've got bank to prove it, right?

So when I think about what's in the community in terms of resources right now, and I think about the challenges facing our community, third grade reading level in every major city across the country for black children. I'm pushing right now on the multimillionaires and the billionaires to figure out what it is that you're doing with all that extra, right? Because you only can live in one house, you only can drive one car, and it can be a nice

one and it can be a one house, you only can drive one car. And it can be a nice one. And it can be a big one. Okay. But after that, that that that space that's sitting around those, those extra material things that the ploy of capitalism have really hurt us there. And then the second thing, I'm going to the other side of the prison. And the other side of the prison is what requires our consciousness, Nick, because, you know, when I sit and talk with my 80-year-old mother, I get the pearls.

She tells me, no, don't go that way. Don't go that way, because they're not going to like it. And so if I'm trying to get from A to Z, and I know I'm already running into a roadblock, then why wouldn't I avoid that if my if my purpose as we've talked about is to not fail us right now. And so when I think of the trajectory from, you know, that that that elder and ancestral wisdom, okay, all the way up to the modern technology and the material, we've got a buttload of stuff that we can use right now to get this

thing moving in a way that those elders and ancestors would be proud of us. Oh man, I love that and I'm right there with you. So Kamau, for you, you talked about that baton, right? And how heavy it is, right? And just like you, I have three mixed race black kids, right? Black children. They don't like to be called kids anymore. So black children. How do you, how do you have that conversation about the baton internally with your children? Let's see, my seven year old hates the

we want to say. So for me, the idea that my seven year old is aware of the state of the world and aware and even in a sort of a seven year old way is really important to me because it means that like if you because some people grow up not being aware of the state of the world. And then when they're full grown adults, you've had conversations with them and they're like, they say something like, well, you know, how many senators are there? And you're like, oh, no. And it's fine. And I will tell you, and we can have a conversation. But I think the

more that in my house, I grew up as an only child, I heard my mom having every conversation. And so with my kids, they seem they're hearing me have a lot of conversation. They're also seeing my work. They're also seeing how people talk to me in the street. So they're aware that like, data does things where he has to talk to people about the state of this country regularly. And they've heard me speak enough to know which sides we're on and that we,

and they, that we want to be on the side of the people and the people does, it's not just people who look like us and we live in Oakland so they can see those people. And so then you have like my, uh, my 14 year old who just graduated from eighth grade, who as part of her graduation celebration, the her advisor said, and Sammy Bell, who thanks to her and our and our and the administrator who talked to her now, every kid in this school knows the words to lift every voice and sing because my daughter sang it at every like school,

you know, function. She was like at every and, and there was a black woman who works in school who asked her to and Sammy did it. And I said, Sammy, you got to learn the words. You got to like, you can't fump her through any of it. We're probably not going to do the second verse, but learned it anyway. And so that's a kid who is like, just through the power of her voice, because she has a good voice, is engaging a little bit of activism by teaching some white kids in her school, some non-black kids about the words of the different

voice and saying and so for me there's more than one way to do this but i think it's important that my kids are aware of what's going on in the world and my 10 year old who's pretty shy like i was when i was her age i go look you're never going to get in trouble with me if you're defending yourself or somebody else who needs to be defended, you think needs to be defended. And that's a very basic thing. But I think it's cool. You might hear the teacher said, I can do this and that. I go, whatever the teacher says, you come home to me and we'll take care of it. And so for me, creating a sense of like, justice is not always in the hands of authority, but justice is sometimes a thing you see

that authority will tell you not to see. And so we are engaged in those conversations regularly in our household. And we also celebrate Kwanzaa, which is the final piece of raising a black family. Oh, man, that is deep. That is deep, but you're right, man. Everything, again, I've been a big believer.

I was raised that you can't have outside conversations if you don't have them inside first, right? And so my grandparents instilled that in me, my parents instilled that in me, and that's what I do with my children as well too, is, hey, we gotta talk about it. Because one, if you don't know your truth, if you can't have your own voice in here,

you'll never have it out there. And so, you know, and I know Glenn, that's something that you're passionate about as well too. That's a pillar that you have, man. And I wanna applaud you and talk a little bit about Beyond Diversity and all the good things that's going on there. Talk to the viewers and listeners a little bit about that,

because to me, Beyond Diversity isn't just a conversation, man, it's, you know, in the 60s or 70s, we would call it a movement, right? Like, talk to us a little bit about that. Right. Well, you hit on the first pillar, right? Of Beyond Diversity is a training framework that I wrote over 30 years ago. So we're celebrating the marker of 30 years at LBJ Library next week. Right. And I think it's it's fitting that that's where we're going. Because before we even think about the

great society and the civil rights movement and, you know, gaining insights from that past we have to do the first work of looking inward right and and we have to ask that simple question of you know what impact is race have on my life and what impact is my race have on my life and as I look around my community how is race playing out there so that so that when I come talk to you and come out that I, I'm already at that place of racial introspection. And my consciousness is moving me beyond the first trappings of defensiveness and fear and all of those things that we've been given

about this topic to, whoa, there's some power here, right? And so 30 years ago, you know, I was looking at all of these disparities in education. I have worked in corporate and advertising. And so I'm seeing that we are just not reflected in the goodies of society at the same proportion that we live in this society. And so for me, the equitable future,

the mark of racial equity is when we start to see ourselves proportionately represented in all the good stuff, right? All the good stuff. And so if you can walk around society and say, hey, that's good, right? To be on a board, hey, that's good. To be say, hey, that's good, right? To be on a board, hey, that's good. To be CEO, hey, that's good. To be at the top of the class when I graduate

or to go off to the college of my choice, hey, that's good. To get that record deal, you know, then you know that we've reached racial equity and Beyond Diversity was designed so that we could have the conversation to move a society, the movement of society to that place of the elusive yet tangible sometimes equality. Man, so I'm going to tell you this, you don't know this, Glenn, man. I'm going to try not to

get emotional. I don't get emotional, but I'm going to hold it in, man. So, you know, been a huge fan of yours for a long time before the internet and all that, like I knew who you were. And I was one of those kids, I can call myself a kid then, that you were talking to, man. Like I had to be the best at everything I did, right? Like my graduating high school, if I didn't have a scholarship,

Mike could have gone to college, but I couldn't have gone to the college I wanted to go school, if I didn't have a scholarship, Mike could have gone to college, but I couldn't have gone to the college I wanted to go to. And so I genuinely had to be the best so that I could get either an academic or athletic scholarship. But then when I got to college, University of North Carolina, by the way, Go Heels, when I got to college, that same mentality was there because I knew that I had a purpose to show

everybody that looked like me that we can be excellent. That we don't have a ceiling, and the ceilings that we have are the ones we put on ourselves. Now, not saying the world is fair, never going to say that. There are things we're gonna have to fight for that other people don't have to fight for, but damn it, I'm gonna fight. Right. And so Glenn, I wanted to tell you thank you for being that for me when you never knew that you were a man. Wow, brother, thank you for that.

And those skills that all three of us have developed, and Kamala and I carry this special pressure of being the only one of the next generation and families, right, this only child syndrome. But we learn to be excellent and the world would be a great place if people had that skill of a desire to be excellent, right? So it's nothing wrong with that. It's just that when you have to be excellent and you might not be noticed as that, right? So it's nothing wrong with that. It's just that when you have to be excellent, and

you might not be noticed as that. Right? As you look around and we think about the conditions which we're living in right now, the irony, right? Of the challenge to DEI where, you know, we have just installed an entire government of people who are not excellent. That's the nicest way to say it. There's an entire government of people who are not excellent. That is not excellent, right? Not excellent, Nick, in the way that you needed to be at Chapel Hill, right? Not working over in the high school district right beside you, where this is a community of excellence and a resource community, but we couldn't get the black children and the brown children

to the top of the class so that they could continue to walk right on over to that university, right? And so that's why we came together, to make sure that your excellence was marked as excellent, and to make sure that those who were not feeling excellent were given the resources so at least they could be that if they put in the effort. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Now, Kamau, I get to give you some praise that you don't know about, man. So in my household, you know, we watch a lot of the things that you've written praise that you don't know about, man. So in my household, you know, we watch a lot of the things that you've written that you produce, we've seen specials. I wanna talk about who's with me, man. Like seeing the title of this tour, and I know you're going towards the back leg of the tour. I'm a little upset you're not gonna be

in Greenville, South Carolina. So I'm not gonna see you. First of all, we're still adding dates. So, and I will be in Durham, I don't know, in Charleston. So I don't know if that's close. Literally, that's what I was gonna say. I know you go back to back in Charleston and Durham. So I'm gonna have to come see you in one of those two, man.

But talk to us about the framework. Infinity Center was killer, by the way. That was a special night. I can't even imagine where you are right now, Kamau. Yeah. Yeah. So, so talk to us about the framework of this tour, man. Like everything from the name, because the name of the tour is so compelling. Right. And me and my children talked about it, but the message that you're trying to send throughout the tour, like, talk to us a little bit about that development.

the message that you're trying to send throughout the tour. Talk to us a little bit about that development. Well, I mean, so, you know, a lot of us who work in the sort of the showbiz, I was going to try and figure out a nicer way to say it, but just in Hollywood, had the one-two punch of... So post George Floyd's murder by Minneapolis, Hollywood was like, we need to talk to more Black creators and we need to give them a voice and let them. And so a lot of projects were greenlit in that moment. I wanted the project that I got was 1000% me growing up mixed. That was about my mixed kids and also other mixed kids in the Oakland Bay area, which was great. But a lot of projects

got greenlit but never got made because by the time it was time to make them, we'd already had the backlash to the to all the DEI. And suddenly all the DEI people got fired. I had a lot of meetings with a lot of black women who were in charge of DEI of these, some of these corporations who then weren't there months later, you'd send an email that said does not work here anymore. And then I had a deal go through. So and then the then the strike happened, the writers in the actor strike. And although we won, I mean, both those unions, we won a lot of what we wanted. They, what they did was,

we're just gonna stop employing you. Like we're just gonna stop. So we're gonna stop making content. Famously, Warner Brothers, who owns CNN, where I used to work, stopped the post-production on the Batwoman movie in post-production. So they were already $90 million in, and then set, and it was gonna be, it was like a the Batwoman movie in post-production. So they were already $90 million in,

and it was like a black Batwoman, which I don't know if that's why they stopped it, but didn't help it, I'm sure. But they were just like, we'd rather use this as a tax write-off than release this as a film. Even though the directors were in the edit bay, two Egyptian directors, I believe, again,

who knows that this is all connected, were in the edit bay, finishing the movie, and they're like, stop your work, I believe, again, who knows if this is all connected, were in the Edit Bay, editing the finishing the movie and they're like, stop, stop your work. It's never coming out. And so not only so there became a point where like there's people I know in Hollywood who haven't worked since the strikes. And that's when I had this moment and I a lot of projects I thought I was going to do just sort of disappeared. And I'd stopped doing stand up comedy. And I had this moment of like, wait a minute. I was raised by Janet Cheatham Bell. I was raised by Walter Alfred Bell.

And sometimes people would ask me, what did your parents do for a living when you were growing up? And I wanted to go, they're hustlers, but not in the way you think. And my mom's father, Smith Cheatham, was one of those guys who would walk onto a job site and just start working.

And they're like, you don't work here, but wait, you did better than everybody else. You work here now. He was just like, I'm going to get a job. And so I chose this opportunity to start to really like, okay, what can I do? Well, I know I can write, where can I take my writing? So I went to Substack, went to Substack,

and was able to go, okay, now that I can do whatever I want to do, what is the goal here? And the goal is to find out who's with me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you know, literally it's that simple. Who believes 88% of the things I do and we can talk about the other 20%

or who believes very little of what I believe, but seems like I'm making some good points and I want to like, I want to at least work through this. And so for me, that's where the, you know, it's sort of always feel like it's like a flip on Kendrick Lamar's way of saying it is they're not like us, my way of saying it is who's with me, it's a kind of gentle way of saying they not like us. And so, and I know that for my CNN train, like the work working on CNN, I got a lot of people who are with me who don't look like me a lot of older white conservative folks who just like the way I said stuff and came to realize some things they never thought about before. And then because I've done podcasting things a lot of younger folks with me a lot of black and brown activists who have been inspired by my work. And I'm just trying to I feel like this is just me trying to build the coalition as as Martin Luther King Jr. did towards the end of his life that he did that he I guess I'll just say he didn't know he knew where it's like, it's got to, it's more than about black

and white. It's about, it's about race. It's about class. It's about, it's about, uh, the entire, the United States effect on the entire world. And so for me, then it became time to like, I got back into standup and I very quickly was like, Oh, I'm still asking who's with me. This is all connected. This is especially because I started the subs that before Trump. But once Trump was in office, it was like, oh, it's still it's definitely who's with me now because I think before we can figure out what we do, we got to figure out who's on our side. And right now in L.A., people are in the streets standing up to

fascism, literally looking around and going, oh, these are all the people who are with me. And it's not just Latinos. It's not just poor folks. It's all sorts of types of people who are in your coalition. So that's where that comes from. I love that. And I want to go deeper with both of you on that too, because you know, when you have people like yourselves and us, the work that we do can never be alone, right? And so there are always people that don't look like less, that maybe don't even have the same political views that we have, but also know good versus evil, right? And so talk to us about that, of how it's a coalition of people,

it's a coalition of entities that actually help make the things that we do happen. Well, so many, I mean, if people don't want to stroll the history so far back, if we just look at this first design of the Great Society, neither Kennedy nor LBJ were really interested in the cause. Okay, their purpose was something completely different. And oftentimes that same purpose that you see

pervading those halls of Congress right now, they wanna get reelected. They wanna keep the gig going. And also America has this interesting part of its culture that we want to show the world that we're great, even though we're not acting great inside. And so these two forces were happening, right? And the Kennedys and then LBJ, they came to understand that there is some goodness in this moral obligation for all folks to feel real citizenship and dignity.

But they also recognized that it was in their best interest to calm the storms. And that's what I worry about today, Mick, because this particular government is not interested in harmony and peace and community in this country. They're interested in their own individual personal gains. And so I don't know how you talk to people who are only interested in themselves.

Right. Because there's nothing that we have here. So I think our coalition now is really important to come together as people who have a bigger interest than just ourselves. We're looking for what's going to happen for our children. We're thinking about the elderly and all know, and all of those things. And as we serve them, as we serve them, we actually serve ourselves better too.

Yes. And so that's the message when folks come in, you know, and they're sort of directed one way on immigration and and I'm directed over here on racial justice. OK, I've got to help them to see that when we all win, we all win. Right? That's that that's the key in here. Totally agree. Totally agree. Come out your side on that one. I mean, mostly, as you saw, I was dancing while he was talking, I guess, yes, yes. So, so the part that I really started

excited about was you talk about LBJ and Kennedy weren't just born into wanting to be on the right side of history. I mean, let's be clear, especially the Kennedys, they were a couple generations away from being bootleggers. A lot of this is like these politicians putting their fingers in the air and saying, which way the wind is blowing. And right now I'm in the middle of a lot of online back and forth with people because a lot of there's a lot of excitement in some parts of California about Gavin Newsom basically standing up to Trump and putting out some videos saying, hey, if you want to treat California this way, we're going to stop paying our we're going to stop paying into the this American

system since we're the fourth largest economy in the world. If we just stop paying into the system, the country falls, the country collapses. And a lot of people got excited and I think that's great. But I'm also don't talk about it, be about it. And I was sort of seeing some Californians who I know be like, we gotta be careful with Newsom because he's not always on our side. He's not always clearly on our side. He's not always, he just started a podcast where he's

interviewed right wing people. He also made gay marriage legal. He also won a universal health care but you don't want $35 insulin. There's just a lot. There's just a lot. Yeah, it's just a lot. He has many pictures of him like dismantling homeless encampments but looking good looking so it gets confusing. So I've just been here to say hey guys like let's not get yes He's saying the right thing But let's also not forget who he is and the number of people who are like this is why the left can't ever win

This is why Democrats can't ever done it. This is why we're just basically let him cook basis What they're saying like let him and I and I brought up the example like do you think LBJ? Signed or pushed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 because he was excited about it? No, he pushed it because Martin Luther King Jr. wouldn't stop showing up in his office. And he was like, I got a lot of people outside who are marching this way. Like he was pushed into doing that. And at some point realized, I want to be on the right side of history, whether or not he had a moral thing or not.

That's for him. That's for his biographers to talk about. But from the outside, it was clear, without MLK, it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. And so it's because, so my feeling is like, politicians only exist to be pushed into the right forms and functions.

Even if you support them 99% of the time, there's gonna be one percent of time you're gonna be like, hey, and look, my mayor's Barbara Lee. I don't know when she's been on the wrong side of history, but when she is eventually, like, I will be there to say, hey, Barbara, I need you to. So, but I think that like we really, we, so many of us, we're so scared

that we're looking for a hero instead of looking at ourselves and going, what can I do? So you want Newsom to handle it and hope that he just handles it and takes care of it so you can get back to Pilates. And I'm saying, like, hey, maybe you can have an anti-racism Pilates session and figure out what that is. I'm not telling you not to do your Pilates instead of just hoping that Newsom is the hero that we've always wanted when no politician is. Yeah.

I agree. I talk to people all the time about when you understand the politics of politics, nothing actually surprises you because it's one of those things like, I'm going to do this. Everybody's going to be excited about it, but there's these other four bills that I'm going to push through with this one big one that the world's these, but I'm gonna push these others that they're not gonna realize for a couple of months, a couple of years, and then they're gonna be like, oh wait, what was this?

Well, you wanted this big shiny thing over here, well to get this big shiny thing, I had to pass these other three or four things that go along with it. As my mom used to say, or says, the only thing you can trust less than a politician who doesn't want your vote is a politician who wants your vote.

It's easier to deal with a politician who doesn't want your vote. You can sort of like, because you kind of know what that guy's going to do, but the politician who wants your vote might say anything. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. You guys have been gracious with your time. I'm going to ask each of you one closing question.

And Glenn, I want to go with you because you pioneered the courageous conversations framework. And I think today more than ever, and I'm not even talking about politics here, I think today more than ever courageous conversations need to happen, man. So how does someone start that dialogue today with your framework? Right. So, the first thing that I'm going to suggest, even before you go through the internet, buy a book, you know, take a seminar on courageous conversation, is you just get a sense of the paramount importance

of racial justice in the society, right? This cannot be what everybody understands to America to be without racial justice. You just have to cross through that. And so establishing that personal relationship to race in your life and to this trajectory of showing up on the side of anti-racism, right? And that is the on-ramp.

Once you get into that on-ramp and you get into these conversations, across the board, you're going to find people who don't agree with you. And rather than a retreat from that, that's when you know that you're entering the next level, because we can all sit around and talk about people who pretty much share those experiences

and understandings of race. But it's when you get to people who don't live the same experience. And their politics could be on the same side or shade of blue, but they're just having a different experience. And so we've got to be open to really having the questions in that nuance. And then finally, finally we got to get to the place

of understanding that race is a symbol of power, right? It's metaphorical, right? And so you've got to not see that, you know, we're all the same and, you know, all of those things, red, black, yellow, green, and white, you know, that all the stories that you're told, no, no, no. There is a hierarchy of power. Right? And you've got to understand this principle of whiteness. You've got to see white supremacy and you've got to see anti-black racism. These two parts of that continuum,

right? And as you can step into those three levels, it's about me, definitely. There are multiple understandings and experiences existing. And there is this system of power race that is about a hierarchy that holds power at white. When you get that, we're ready to go. Everything can change. Yes, sir. It's not that hard.

Not that hard. Absolutely, absolutely. So, Kamau, for you, man. One, congratulations on Celebrity Jeopardy. Absolutely. I was. I jumped up when you won. I jumped up.

For all the smart Negroes who were bullied, I'm here for you. I jumped up. I know Donors Choose was happy about that too. I'm a big supporter of school systems, so I know that was amazing. So my question for you, that I want you to be able to give insight

to the viewers and listeners. So for that person that's listening or watching right now, that's afraid to say something wrong, right? What's some advice? What's some courage, some power you can give that person or those people today? I would say if you're afraid to say something wrong, I would first say you need to do an audit of your friend group and see who you're surrounding yourself with, that you can't be honest with who you are

sitting near and who you are regularly in conversation with. So it doesn't mean that I don't think I'm going to say something wrong, but I feel like if I do, I am surrounded by people who one of them go, Hey, come out, come here for a second. No, and they're going to do it with love, unless I keep doing it, unless I keep saying it. You know what I mean? They're gonna, you know, it's Adrienne Marie Brown taught me the difference between calling in and calling out.

They're gonna call me in. And if you haven't figured out a way to have a friend group that is also smart enough in different areas and have enough different experiences, backgrounds, that you don't feel like you can be lovingly called in and you don't have people who can do that, then you need to look at yourself and go, who did I surround myself with?

This goes back to the Lil Wayne album. Like, clearly Lil Wayne is not surrounded by people who can be like, hey man, maybe not 19 tracks, maybe Lin-Manuel Miranda is not the right producer for you. You know, whatever. He's not, he doesn't have those people around him. So just, so understand, be your, don't end up in that situation is what I'm saying.

Like you have to, and then, you have to know that you're gonna say something wrong sometime. If you're trying, and I know this as a stand up comedian, if we don't try to say the wrong thing, we're never gonna say the funny thing. Right. Now, sometimes the wrong thing is so wrong,

people write you up in an article about it, but I feel like that's just the nature of the business, and you just gotta, as a stand-up comedian, I'm never gonna go through what Lenny Bruce went through, or where he got arrested for saying the wrong thing, although maybe I am now, we're going to a different era of America, maybe that's coming back again.

But I just feel like, you know, I'm never gonna go through what Dick Gregory went through performing at the Playboy Club in front of a group of white people for the first time a black comic had done that in this country that we know of. I'm not gonna go through that situation. So, you know, as I talked about,

I think I talked about that night at the Kennedy Center, whenever I start to get caught up in my own, like, what if I say the wrong thing or why is this so hard? Something the ghost of Harry Tubman shows up and goes, what what's hard? Can you explain to me what's hard that you're doing? You're afraid to talk. Oh, OK. Let me just be clear.

You're afraid to talk. You're afraid to share an idea. You're afraid to do your trade to try a new thing Is that you're afraid to direct a documentary about Bill Cosby? Oh, what's first of all? What's a documentary? You know what I mean? So I understand that like at some point you got to get out of your own way and stop thinking that every word you say is so precious that you have to be so careful and scared of it and understand that like the the that true Change happens in the uncomfortable spaces In the spaces of like I don't know how this is gonna go down. I don't know how this is gonna work

can you imagine being a young MLK and During the bus during when they're talking about the bus boycott and they said I think he should do it He's like I just moved here He was like, I don't, nobody even knows me. They're like, exactly. And so the idea being that like, that's where true change occurs is in those uncomfortable spaces

where you might say the wrong thing or you do say the wrong thing and you build to a better day. Amen to that. Amen to that. So much wisdom today. Glenn Singleton, W. Kamau Bell, man, like appreciate both of you. Final one, Glenn, where can people find you, follow you?

What do you have going on you wanna talk about the last 30 seconds? Well, I'm headed over to Austin for this big convening where we talk about, you know, the great society as opposed to make America great again. And so that's gonna be down at Austin's the 17th and 18th. I would say go to our website, www.courageousconversation.com and check the events.

You can follow me on Instagram. courageous conversation.com and check the events. I'm, I can, you can follow me on Instagram. I'm courageous dove four, four, four LinkedIn. All of those sources, Facebook, I think is the same at this point. And yeah, I haven't played around with, with Twitter too much, but I, I still am listed on there. So I cross over the threads or something. But that's where I am. That's where I go.

There you go. Appreciate it. And I'll make sure I have all the links in the show notes and description for everyone. And we'll send people we'll send people out to Austin. Come on, what about you? So yeah, as you were saying, like I'm doing most of my work is gathered now at who's with me on Substack. So if you go to Substack and look up Debbie, come out, Bill, like I'm doing, most of my work is gathered now at Who's With Me on Substack. So if you go to Substack and look up Debbie Come Out Bell or Who's With Me, you'll find me.

It's been very good for me and I try to write every week. I'm actually gonna hopefully write today. I don't know if I can think of something to write about that's going on in the country. It's always about current events in the state of America. Hopefully I can come up with something. And then connected as my comedy tour, Who's With Me, where June 17th through the 22nd

will be at the Berkeley Rep, and the proceeds are actually gonna go to local Bay Area organizations that lost NEA funding when Trump cut NEA funding. So that's coming up June 17th through 22nd. And then June, July 11th to 12th, I'll be in Charleston and Durham hanging out with Mick here. So we'll be there doing my Who's With Me tour.

And yeah, so I have other tour, and also I have two days coming up in the 26th and 27th of June in Seattle and Portland. So just wcmaobell.com, you can get everything or go to sub stack who's with me or wcmaobell to find out everything. Gentlemen, both of you made my day. Both of you inspire me and have been a huge inspiration to the person that is before you today.

So I just wanted to tell both of you, I appreciate you more than you'll both ever know. If you ever need me, don't ask, consider me there, consider it done. Supporting everything you do. And from the bottom of my soul, thank you for who you both are. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. You got it. For all the viewers and listeners,

remember your because is your superpower. Go Unleash it. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Mick Unplugged. If today hits you hard, then imagine what's next. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and share this with someone who needs it. And most of all, make a plan and take action because the next level is

already waiting for you. Have a question or insight to share. Send us an email to hello at mcunplugged.com until next time. Ask yourself how you can step up.