Microsoft Research Podcast - What’s Your Story: Jacki O’Neill

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

Jacki O'Neill saw an opportunity to expand Microsoft research efforts to Africa. She now leads Microsoft Research Africa, Nairobi (formerly MARI). O'Neill talks about the choices that got her there, the lab’s impact, and how living abroad is good for innovation. Learn more:Jacki O'Neill at Microsoft ResearchMicrosoft Research Africa (formerly MARI)

I love living in different places and those experiences are what help us innovate better and design things that are like taking another point of view, more creative, I think, just sparks things in your head. And I mean, it's so much fun. Microsoft Research works at the cutting edge. But how much do we know about the people behind the science and technology that we create?

This is What's Your Story? And I'm Johannes Gerke. In my 10 years with Microsoft, cross product and research, I've been continuously excited and inspired by the people I work with and I'm curious about how they became the talented and passionate people they are today. So I sat down with some of them.

Now I'm sharing their stories with you. In this podcast series, you'll hear from them about how they grew up, the critical choices that shaped their lives, and their advice to others looking to carve a similar path. In this episode, I'm talking with Jackie O'Neill, director of the Microsoft Africa Research Institute, OMERI for short, in Nairobi, Kenya. Jackie's decade-long career at Microsoft began at the company's India Research Lab, where she applied her ethnographic and human-com computer interaction expertise to advancing equity in the country. After the opening of two Microsoft software engineering centers in Africa,

Jackie made the case for a research lab on the continent. She now leads the MARI team in making technology more inclusive, a role that allows her to pursue her goal of positive local change with global impact. Here's my conversation with Jackie, beginning with her time growing up in Plymouth, England. We just had a discussion maybe a couple of years ago, right, when you were just in transition to Africa. So it's really great to have you here and both learn a little bit what's happening there, but also to learn a bit more about your story. How, you know. Where did you grow up and how did you end up here at Microsoft? Yeah. Thanks for asking that.

I've had a very, well, it's definitely not been a straight road to get here, but the windy roads are the most interesting ones. I grew up in Plymouth, which is a dockyard and naval town in the southwest of England. So socially deprived, a naval town in the southwest of England, so socially deprived, working-class town. So when I was growing up it was a thriving working-class town but of course with those industries, you know, they didn't pass so well through those years. So, you know, by the time

I was leaving school it was quite a deprived city and still is. I think that it's really important to be in those type of places though, because you get a very rich view of life. And I left Plymouth as soon as I could. When you went to university? Well, I went and I was a cook for a year in the Lake District, which is a very beautiful part of the UK, and then went to university. Where's the Lake District? It is northwest and it's all hills. It's like Wordsworth country. It's all hills and poetry and beautiful houses. And yeah, it was a fantastic time working as a cook there.

And then I went to Manchester to do my degree. Okay. And what is your degree in? Ah, so yes, I did a social science degree to start with. I started at the time when you could get a degree in anything and get any job at the end of it. But by the time I came out of my degree, it was a recession. But did you have specific plans while you were studying of what you

want you know what profession you want to go into? Not really I didn't I think I think like many young people I didn't really know but I felt that I would find something interesting when I came out and then you know I just worked lots of different jobs. What is your favorite college course? My favorite college course in my degree? Gosh, that's a good question. It was all so long ago. Okay. My favorite, I guess, yeah. No, I've... So I did my degree was in psychology. I worked,

and then I did my master's in computer science and then my PhD in human computer interaction. That's quite a change, right, from psychology into computer science then. Yes, yes. And I just, you know, I'd always wanted to do computing, but when I was at school, it was, we had one computer in the school. And so it was like a computer at home or you don't do computer science. So, you know, I didn't do it. So then as computers became more prominent, more available, you know, I was working in libraries and they started computerising and I worked on that project and then that led me to do a master's. And so I was like, hey, this is the opportunity to really get into this area. And I loved it. It was fantastic.

And Manchester Computer Science Department is one of the top departments. And I had an amazing, Carol Goble was my thesis supervisor. She was absolutely amazing and strong for women in computing. But at the end of it, I was like, okay. So I didn't want to do pure social science. And I didn't want to do pure social science and I didn't want to do pure computer science. What I want to do is do human computer science. So where you really merge the two and that's how I got into HCI. And I think that's why I started finding my favorite courses.

You know, I love the research methods. I loved those types of things. And what was your PhD about? Oh, it was very boring. Okay. My PhD was in computer supported co-operative work. Okay, oh yeah. And I...

Really very relevant now, right? Yeah, very relevant now. And that was a really exciting time for CSCW as well because there were so many different labs, there were Sun Systems, there was Xerox, there was Microsoft, all doing really cool, like collaborative technologies. So it seemed like a brilliant area to go into. But I was looking at, can we support networking events for businesses? So it was just at the time of the first, you know, things like WebEx and things, you know, the first collaborative seminar.

So you're way ahead of the social networks, right? And everything, right? Yeah. And there was a whole conference at that point in time, right? CSCW, I think, I remember. Yes, yes. So it was and still is, I think, a really big field. Yes, it's really interesting.

And I think one of the things that's interesting with the foundational models now is many of the things that people like me, HCI people, have been wanting to happen. If only we can enable people to interact with technology like this are now suddenly possible, which is quite exciting. Yes, we'll get to that in a little bit. Because I think, as you said, the whole field of HCI is now changing with foundational models and what the interfaces are will be, I think it's a really interesting deep research question right now. So okay, so you got your PhD here in Manchester. What's the next step in your career? Where did you go next?

Yeah, I actually got a job before I finished my PhD. So I took quite a long time to do my PhD. I think it was seven years in the end, partly because I was teaching when I was doing, like lecturing when I was doing my PhD. And I also had a job as a consultant, occasionally working with, I think I worked with the Co-op Bank, I worked with some usability companies and I could make enough money to live for a term on like two weeks consultancy because I didn't have very high costs. You lived as a grad student, right?

Yes, yeah, yeah. And actually, you know, I was living in Manchester, I was living in a squat, so I wasn't paying any rent. Oh, really? Yes. So I didn't have very rent. Oh, really? Yes. So I didn't have very many costs, which was very handy. So I didn't have any real incentive to finish my PhD until I got a job. When I finished my master's, I looked at the job market,

and with my computer science master's, the main job was database manager, which didn't appeal. That sounds not really interesting. Yeah. So I actually, that's why I ended up doing a PhD because I was like, I don't want to go back to work yet. You know, I've been working for five years before. So, yeah, I just was enjoying doing a PhD and doing pieces of work here and there. And then I got a job at Xerox in Cambridge. And then that's when I got motivated to finish my PhD because working and doing a PhD at the same time is not much fun.

Right, right. So you got your PhD, had your job lined up, and then you started Xerox. What were you doing in Xerox? Human-computer interaction. It was a really exciting time. There was so much going on in the industry. I was so delighted. It was like my dream job to be in industry

and to maybe create cool interfaces and cool collaborative systems. And then they closed the lab. Within six months, it wasn't my fault. Oh, so quickly. Wow. And what they closed the lab within six months. It wasn't my fault. Oh, so quickly. Wow. And what did you do then? I mean, it's your first big job and such a quick setback. They offered me a job in their lab in France. So I stayed in the UK for a while and worked half in France, half in the UK. And then I shifted to France full time.

Okay. Oh, wow. So where in France did you live then? Grenoble. Okay, yeah, in the middle of the French Alps, exactly, beautiful place. Yes, skiing, climbing, hiking, so much fun. Okay, so you're at Xerox PARC in the French Alps, what's next? Xerox was opening a research lab in India. And I'd always wanted to travel, you know, I'd always wanted, and I never really had the money or the opportunity to travel. So when they said they were opening it, I just went to my boss and said, hey, I don't know what you'd want me to do, but if there's any opportunities for me to do anything to help the opening of India,

I'd love to. And I went out for a month and then I went out for three months. I mean, both of these sound like really bold steps to me. First of all, I mean, Grenoble is probably pure French speaking, right? And did you have high school French? I had high school French, yes. And then we drove from the UK to Grenoble listening to learn French takes in the car. Wow. And that was enough then to get by with a daily... Actually, so it's great in France because they expect you to learn the language. So you have French lessons at work.

And then actually I did an evening class as well that was paid for by work. A really intensive one month month like two hours a night every night of the week and that really helped yeah it was it's fantastic oh that's really great and then and then you took the even bigger step to move to India right yeah how was that like and what was the experience there yeah India is just magical you know initially I just went for one month and three months and it was just the people the culture the work I was doing the research I was doing was like no research you know I spent a lot of time in call centers around Europe doing studies ethnographic studies and designing technology a lot of time looking at photocopiers because

and then so going to India suddenly you know I'm looking at photocopiers because I was with Sierra Roskatt. And then so going to India, suddenly, you know, I'm looking at social enterprises, I'm looking at all sorts of businesses and different ways of life and different people. And it was just so rich and so amazing that I was like, okay, I really want to do this. And that's actually when I applied to Microsoft, because Microsoft had the technology for emerging markets group there, which is world class research in that space. So I was like, OK, if I want to keep on doing this, then that's what I'm going to apply to.

And luckily enough, I got the job and that's how I joined Microsoft. So OK, so you're now at Microsoft in India, that was in Bangalore, right? Where our research lab there is. And so what were you working on there for the next few years? Yes, so initially I looked at a few different things. I joined some existing projects. So I was on MEC, which was the educational platform, looking at whether we could bring the power of MOOCs to Indian education to improve the level of education. Because they have amazing colleges at the top, but actually the vast majority of students go to these intermediate colleges

and the teaching level really varies. And so the idea was, can you help with blended blended learning can you help the teachers teach better that turns out to be really challenging and actually the system ended up being used by the students to teach themselves oh so it's like for independent learning and that was really so that was interesting doing some studies there I looked at Indrani had done an amazing project where they'd built Facebook for farmers so I did a study of that which was really really fun and then I worked in financial inclusion with my big areas I spent about five years working with auto ritual drivers in Bangalore designing technologies to help them understand the loans they'd taken out, which was really, really fun. They're a very great community to work.

You don't get any nonsense from an auto-eviction driver. Well, that's just the thing. What was it like to live in India and just move there and start out there? Oh, it was fantastic. It's a great place to live. The people are amazing. The food is amazing. Moving with Microsoft makes it very easy

because Microsoft takes care of you when you move. So you're not, you know, some of the stresses that you might have around the move are taken care of. I had a young family. I had a two-year-old son when we moved out there. And within a year had another one, which was not 100% planned because

you don't usually move to a new company and then have a baby. You're like, oh, sorry. But that was all fine. Yeah. And you worked with all of these different communities in India, right? How did you connect to the communities? I mean, these were teachers. Yeah, you need to, you really need to go with people. So you have to convince some organization that what you're going to do is going to be beneficial to them and useful for them. And then if they're trusted by the community, they give you access. And that's really great because you do have access that you wouldn't otherwise have. You know, if you're really wanting to build technologies to support people, you really need to understand what they care about. What do they want help with? And you only get that if you've got a trusted relationship with them.

So we worked with, there was one organization that worked with the auto ritual drivers wives. It was about empowering women. And we got access to the drivers initially through that organization. That's amazing. I mean, you know, I've visited India many times, but I can only imagine how it is to live there, actually. So do you have some of the stories of what is sort of most surprising for you, given that you've lived there?

Yeah, what's most surprising? I think, so one thing is, one thing is, people want to tell you what they think you want to hear. So if you're lost, you need to ask quite a few people for directions and then make some sort of assessment about whether the person was just saying yes, yes, that way, because he knew the way or yes, yes, that way, because he knew the way, or yes, yes, that way, because he just didn't want to tell you that he didn't know. And so you have to sort of judge. So that's one, like...

So the first few times you went in the wrong direction. Yes, exactly. And then you're like, but they say, and you ask someone else, and they're like, no, it's over there. And then someone... So that's the most useful piece of advice i could give to anyone who's visiting india is when you cross the road just find someone else who's already crossing the road and cross with them because it's so dangerous if you go by yourself potentially yeah you get used

to it quite quickly and there's obviously something that changes in you when you've been there a while um you know when you first go there all the auto ritual drivers are going to overcharge you and drive around the block twice and all of those things. And I find after about four to five weeks when you've been there, they know there must be something that changes in your attitude because they actually know that you're there longer term and you're not going to take any nonsense. So do you behave differently? What's the change there? I've tried to think about this but I think I don't know it must be just an air of confidence or an air of certainty or something but yeah there it's like something just clicks or changes. That's so interesting. Is it only for the drivers or is it in other aspects of your life as well where sort of you get treated differently because you suddenly have become a native? I think you notice it most in the drivers because they're the ones that you're interacting so much

with to get about, you know, to get, you're always getting a tuk-tuk to go from here to there. And they really do, you know, if they can make extra money out of you, they are going to make extra money out of you. They smell it that you're a tourist. Yes. And then, so you were in India and then another opportunity came along. So tell us a little bit about that opportunity where you ended up now. Yes. So when I heard that the ADCs were opening,

the Africa Development Center, so our software engineering center in Nairobi and Lagos, I thought that that was a great time to pitch for research in Africa for Microsoft. It seemed like a bit of a hole in our portfolio. I have family connections to Africa. So actually one of the reasons for joining Microsoft was partly because I thought there might be opportunities eventually in Africa. Because we had a great Africa startup program, for example. But there wasn't any research there.

And so when I had the ADCs were open, I just put together a like pitch for setting up research in Africa within the ADCs and, you know, all sorts of people really helped me hone that pitch. And then I flew at the end of February 2020. Oh just right before the pandemic. I flew to, I was in Barcelona for a future of work event and then I flew to Nairobi and then Lagos to meet the people who were running the ADCs and to think about where, which one I would want to set up research in if such a thing were to happen.

And I did that. I decided that Nairobi was the right one. And when I went there, Jack Nagare ran the ADC, and he was so enthusiastic about having research there. So I did a pitch and got some funding just, I think if it had been two weeks later, I'm not sure. But it was just before we knew how bad COVID was going to be. So I was very lucky with timing.

And I mean, you've made these amazing moves throughout your career, right? You sort of raised your hand for India when the lab was open, now here in Africa. Why and how? I'm just so curious because people make the most unexpected turns in their careers from time to time, but it's more like because they lose a current job or their manager moves away and they really think about their career. But you raise your hand from time to time and then you get these really bold and amazing moves. Yeah, I mean, life's meant to be exciting, isn't it? I think life's meant to be exciting. I love living in different places and, you know, as an ethnographer, as a person interested in human-computer interaction, it's like those experiences are what help us innovate better

and design things that are like taking another point of view, more creative, I think, like just sparks things in your head. And and I mean it's so much fun like I don't understand why everyone doesn't do it so it's just really amazing so if I think about you know India where you said right the experience for you was that in the drivers for teaching you're treating is suddenly differently did a similar experience in Africa or what is the what is one of the or a few of the defining experiences and stories there? Yeah I think so the animals are amazing in Kenya they've done such an amazing job at conservation I imagine that they would you would only see like these big animals in the national parks but

they're not everywhere they're not going to be you're not going to find a hippo walking down the road in Nairobi but they are all over the place so you can go camping in late Nairosha which is just an hour and a half from from Nairobi and I was camping with a friend and the kids were in their tent and my friend was in her tent and I was just sitting by the fire it's about 10 o'clock I said okay I might go to bed in a minute and then I just had this snort and I get up with my torch and I look and there's a hippo like probably less than a meter and a half away from me so I carefully went and sat back down by the fire and waited for a while before I moved. Are they dangerous in that respect? If you've startled them or so? Yeah, I think they say that you should never get between a hippo and the water.

So luckily I was on the other side of the hippo and the water. But they are big. I mean, they can be very grumpy. And so you just shouldn't startle them or what? I mean, just try to understand what's their recommended behavior. Don't get between the hippo and the water. Yes that's recommended and don't startle them and just you know stay very stay very calm. So actually when you're camping if you don't have an electric fence around the campsite then you shouldn't come out of your tent at night. So don't drink too much beer before you go to bed. Because it's the zip. When you unzip it, you can really startle if there's any wild animals, lions or whatever around, then you can really scare them and you don't want to scare a lion. Yeah, I was thinking just actually about the lions or so, right? I mean,

they could be probably even more dangerous than the hippos or not really? Hippos are actually more dangerous than lions. Okay. Yeah, lions will generally not attack you. And apparently the thing, I haven't had to try this, I'm glad to say, but the thing you should do if you encounter a lion is just look them in the eye and then they'll go off. Stare them down. Okay. I hope I never have to try that because they are quite scary.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think hippos are more likely to charge at you like a lion is more likely to go off in to try that because they are quite scary. I think hippos are more likely to charge at you, like a lion's more likely to go off in the other direction. And what's the daily life like, you know, living in Nairobi, right? I mean, it must be very, very different from living in both India as well as, you know, Great Britain or here.

Yeah, I mean, it is very different uh the the traffic's bad but not as crazy as india like i drive in kenya i didn't drive in india because it was a bit too scary with the um spikes and everything um it's it's a really it's a really nice pace i think in in nairobi um it's a beautiful city. There's nightlife and there's cafes and restaurants, but you've got countryside so close, you know, compared to Bangalore, it's quite a small city. And the weather is amazing. And the people are really friendly and kind. And you know, it's just it's a very nice, it's a very nice place to live. That's amazing. And you now are leading the Microsoft Africa Research Institute there, right?

What is the focus of the institute and what are you studying there? Yeah, we're mainly focused on foundational models. It won't be a surprise to anybody. Which actually, you know, it's worked out very well for us because we have a mixed disciplinary team. We have HCI and AI and ML and data science. And all local. All local, yeah.

And yeah, we're looking at multilingual languages and models. So we're working with MSR India, thinking about how can you benchmark these models for different languages. And we're thinking all the way along the scale from your high resource, you know, French and German, to your mid-resource Swahili Hindi, all the way to your low-resource languages,

because you know the vast majority of training data is in English. So we've been working a lot. That's nice because we languages, because you know the vast majority of training data is in English. So we've been working a lot. That's nice because we're having, in a very short amount of time, four or five months, we're having both scientific impact with papers, but also product impact, working with the Copilot language globalization team as they're rolling out Copilot in different languages. I see. So the research that you have will go into, let's say, Word or PowerPoint or so to make it

available in some of the language from the continent? Yes, exactly. Because it's not just about translation. It's also if you think about our AI, responsible AI, a lot of that is language-based. So you can't just translate lists of words. You have to find the right lists of words in those languages. And then what about things like tone and stuff? So that's one area. And then related to that, it's in a much bigger space of equity models, the models

in equity, you know, what's going to happen to the digital divide with these models. In some ways, you could imagine that they may be flattening it, but in other ways they could be increasing it so we really are trying to map out how the different elements of the digital divide as it plays out in these models because you obviously have your traditional things like access to devices access to um and you know infrastructure and things like that but there's also the data divide. So not only is most of the training material in English, it's also mostly from America and the global north. So it embodies very particular worldviews.

And if you think about data on Africa, data on Africa tends to be collected by particular organisations. So there's lots of data on Africa tends to be collected by particular organisations. So there's lots of data on poverty and disease and forced migration and things like that. Not much data on the stories, the creativity, wealth, innovation. So what does that mean? Even if the models can speak perfectly, which they can't yet, but they'll eventually get quite good at even smaller languages like Luo, if that model is just translating English content into Luo, that's not necessarily what we want from a model.

So there's some really interesting questions there to be answered. Well, it seems to me like it's clearly also a question of like getting the right kind of data. So where do you get the data and how do you get the data? Yeah, that's a big question. And it was already a challenge, you know, before these models, you know, many people have been working with Masa Kani, which is one of the African NLP communities, which is around creating data sets in African languages for training the models. So that was, you know, getting good quality training data is already a challenge.

Sri Ram from MSR India that was telling me of a really interesting project they've got going on in India with the Indian government, where they are trying to collect data from each region of India so they can use it to train the open AI models, which would be really cool and we should think about is that what we can do for different African countries and contexts.

Exactly. It seems to be very much like a citizen science project, right? Where you sort of involve the citizens that speak different dialects and then involve them collecting the right kind of data. Yeah, yeah. And maybe collecting the stories, you know, and the cultural attributes and assets from different places. That'll be really, really exciting. Probably also about preservation of the culture and history, right?

Yes, yes. But challenging. But challenging. Yes. So that's one big aspect of the work. Anything else that's happening there? Yes. So we're doing a lot of work.

You'll be unsurprised to hear on future of work and AI and so we've got a project on modern work and LLMs so looking at the work for enterprise workers frontline and knowledge workers are doing and then what bits of their job they would like to get rid of if they could and what bits they would keep and how we can use LLMs to support them. And we've also, like Mohamed on my team, also worked with the garage to train them up in foundational models, both the LLMs and the vision models. And then they've introduced them to a whole load of small businesses in Kenya.

So that's really interesting. You've got everyone from car sales people to lawyers who are now using LLMs as part of their everyday work, which is amazing. As part of like composing messages or part of... Yeah, writing contracts, sales documents for cars, all sorts of really interesting things. So we're going to go out and look at what they're doing and think about how, you know, what else is

needed, what more do they need. What's the prevalent form factor in terms of if I think about a computer there? Is it a mobile phone? Is it a tablet? It's a mobile phone? It's a mobile phone. Okay. So you have to rethink also probably all the interfaces.

Yes. You mentioned that early on, right? I mean, as you think about the next generation of HCI with AI in it, right? Yes, yes. I mean, conversational interfaces, the idea that you can talk to your phone or enter existing text. If you look at small businesses, a lot of their interactions with customers are on chat. If you can enter that chat into an LLM and extract structured data from it, then suddenly you've got all this data

that's been lost to the business becomes usable. So it's really exciting space. And I think voice interfaces are gonna become really, really, really big. And that's why there's opportunities for leapfrogging because suddenly everyone with a mobile phone potentially has a really powerful office productivity tool in their hand and can do things.

Many of the small businesses, they don't employ a designer. They don't employ an accountant. But now they could maybe have an accountant or a designer in their pocket, which enables them to do more, which is definitely the more positive side of the future work than some of the jobs. This whole enablement stories of people is just really amazing that you can do with LLMs and especially with voice interfaces as well. Let me conclude with a question about your career. I mean, it seems like you've always amazingly managed to somehow align your career moves with

your passion. And you moved to India because you're just excited to live in India. You moved then to Microsoft Research, but then you moved to Africa again for, what I hear, a little bit the adventure as well, right? Yes. So what's your advice for people who want to sort of align these two and who want to not only work, but also want to work on something they're really passionate about? How do you manage to create that alignment? That's a good question. I don't know. It just sort of happens. I mean, I think you have to be passionate about it. You have to talk about it and decide what you want to do.

You know, I never really imagined marry would happen, but I just started talking to people and people were saying, before I did the pitch, people were saying to me, oh, what would you like to do in five five years Jackie and I was like oh you know what if I had my way I'd love to run a research center in Africa and then within a couple of years it was nothing more than an idea in my head so I think that you have to have the ideas verbalize it and maybe it can happen. And why a research center in Africa? What's personal about you for you there? So my children are African, my children are Cameroonian. So I wanted them to grow, spend some time on the continent. And, you know, as a family, we'd always had that idea of moving to the continent eventually. So that was part, that was a personal motivation in there as

well, as well as the, as well as the passion. So it's more sort of the confluence of, I guess, opportunity, but then also drive on your side. Because that's what I've heard very often in careers, that it's not only about, well, this is what I finally want to do, but also watching out for that opportunity. Yes. So it seems like that played a big role here as well. And so when you heard about, you know, that there was an African Development Center, how did you, what were your next steps then?

I mean, you must have been excited, but you also seemed to have taken some action. Yeah, I mean, I created a small pitch, a small set of slides. And then I just started talking to everybody I knew who was doing anything. I didn't have any contact with the ODCs. So you created that energy and excitement about it.

But I just started to, you know, every time anyone would come to India, you know, it was just like, ah, this is what I'd like to do. And you just almost talk it into being, I think. And were there some setbacks or was it just like a straight line from sort of your excitement all the way up to realization? No, I mean, I didn't,

I don't think I ever really imagined it would happen, you know, but you're just doing it and you're plugging away and then taking the, you know, taking the advice of people. Really an awesome story. So maybe as a last question, where do you see the center be in like three to five years? I mean, you're starting off right now, but I'm sure you have really big ambitions for the center. Yeah. And there's so much to do in the continent. No, absolutely. I think that I have a few ambitions. So the most important, I think I want it to be really established as this thing that's really beneficial

to Microsoft, that Microsoft is like really, yeah, the guys at Mari, they're doing great research. We really like them. So that it sort of exists without me. You know, at the moment, I think I'm the driver of it. I would...

So you want to grow the next generation that is basically going to be the next generation of leaders. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then I think also grow, I would love to help in growing the Microsoft market in Africa. We don't have a particularly big market in Africa, but I think there's a lot of opportunity, especially now with these large language models. I think that we, so that would be really exciting. You know, if we can help,

I don't see our success only being about growing the African market, but I think it's part of what we can do. And if we can grow that market, as well as do research that's relevant for Redmond and relevant globally, that's globally, that's really exciting, I think. You know, so everything we do, I think, has to have a relevance globally. And I think, you know, at the beginning, I was talking about different ways of viewing the world and how that leads to innovation. I think by having researchers who are African, based in Africa, doing this great research, we can create better products for everyone. That's such a great finishing note.

Thank you so much for the great conversation, Jackie. Thank you, Johannes. It's been fun. To learn more about Jackie or to see photos of Jackie living and working abroad, visit aka.ms slash researcher stories.