Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1130: Andrew Tarvin- The World's First Humor Engineer

Episode Date: September 30, 2019

In this episode, Sal, Adam and Justin talk with Andrew Tarvin all about humor and how to use it a work and beyond. What was his first REAL job? (3:53) The moment he knew he was onto something. (6:40) Stand up with a message: How he became the ‘Corporate Humorist’ at work. (10:03) How did his first stand up set go? (12:38) “Operation Leave Corporate America” and the journey to his TEDx Talk viral moment.  (14:55) The BIG differences between what is appropriate on a comedy stage compared to a corporate setting. (20:44) Why his material is always ‘Rated Mom’. (24:18) How does he monetize what he does for a living? (28:33) Why do we find things funny? (29:43) The skill of humor: The 3 components needed to learn TODAY. (34:14) What did he learn from going on 96 first dates?? (44:18) Do comedians play an important role in society? (54:34) Memes: A structured way to help people create humor. (59:11) Can he point out someone who studies the art of comedy? (1:05:03) What are his top comedians? (1:07:23) The concept of the ‘Peak/End’ principle, using humor to get a specific result and finding ways to love what you do. (1:09:00) The misconception of happiness. (1:17:00) Featured Guest/People Mentioned  Andrew Tarvin (@drewtarvin)  Instagram Website Hannah Gadsby (@hannah_gadsby) Instagram Hasan Minhaj (@hasanminhaj)  Instagram Jim Gaffigan (@jimgaffigan)  Instagram Anthony Jeselnik (@anthony_jeselnik)  Instagram Eddie Izzard (@eddieizzard)  Instagram Related Links/Products Mentioned September Promotion: MAPS Starter ½ off!! **Code “STARTER50” at checkout** The Skill of Humor | Andrew Tarvin | TEDxTAMU Humor That Works: The Missing Skill for Success and Happiness at Work – Book by Andrew Tarvin How Being The Funny Guy At Work Turned Into A Full Time Career Dave Chappelle: Sticks & Stones | Netflix Official Site Hannah Gadsby: Nanette | Netflix Official Site Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj | Netflix Official Site The Humor Code: A Global Search for What Makes Things Funny - Book by Joel Warner and Peter McGraw The Evolution of Humor: From Grunts to Poop Jokes Jon Stewart On What's Stopping Voters from Pulling the Lever The Comedy Bible: From Stand-up to Sitcom--The Comedy Writer's Ultimate "How To" Guide - Book by Judy Carter Eddie Izzard "Death Star Canteen" Sketch From the Circle DVD (2002) Happiness Advantage: The Seven Principles That Fuel Success and Performance at Work - Book by Shawn Achor TEDxBloomington - Shawn Achor - "The Happiness Advantage: Linking Positive Brains to Performance"

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. This is actually really surprising. I was not ready for how fun this interview was going to be. Every once in a while we get somebody that I find myself like completely captivated by what they have to say. And I thought this whole angle was already unique as it was, like comedy and business,

like why is that important? How could that be? I love comedians, why don't we bring more on? I know, he was, he just, I mean, I remember we saw his TED Talk first and we're like, oh, this is interesting. This would be a cool conversation. And it was fun, dude.

It was a it was fun. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, he talks about how humor improves productivity and his TED talk was about the skill of humor. So he literally talks about and breaks down, because he's an intellectual. Yeah, that's what's great is that it's somebody who has taught himself to be funny, right?

It's he's an engineer. And you read all the books, which you don't hear a lot of comedians talk about, you know, in depth in terms of like, like all the formulas that are out there. Yes. I mean, he's an engineer, right? So anybody who's ever worked with an engineer before, those, they don't always have spreadsheet the whole thing out.

Yeah. And humor, humor is actually a big part of health. It's a huge part of health. It's been shown in many, many studies, pretty conclusively that laughing and having laughter and having a sense of humor will improve your health overall. So if you're somebody who's interested in being a healthy person, which, I mean, this goes all the way down the line, like improving your ability to build muscle burden body fat, live longer, have less inflammation, less risk of cancer and heart disease,

you know, that stuff. You you're gonna like this episode. So with this one is also health centric. Now the person we're interviewing, Andrew Tarvin, great guy, Ted Talk is the skill of humor, and you wanna check that one out. He has a book out called Humor that works, and his website is humorthatworks.com, and on all social media, you can find him at

Drew at D-R-E-W-Tarvin. So that's where you can find them at DR-EW Tarvan. So that's where you can find them on Instagram and on other social media platforms. Now, before the episode starts, I wanna remind everybody there's only one day left for the Maps Starter 50% off sale. 24 hours left after that, this promotion will be gone until this time next year. Now map

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So tell me, what was your first, I guess, real job, because I'm assuming that's when this really started to come together for you? Yes, so the first real job was, I was an IT project manager at Procter & Gamble. And so my background is degree in computer science and engineering have always been engineering. People are like, wait, but you speak and talk about humor

and you're an engineer that doesn't compute, right? That's like an oxymoron. But no, I, so I've always been engineering, mind it, always obsessed with efficiency. I was telling some recently that I remember in the fifth grade getting really excited when I discovered if you put all the like silverware together when loading a dishwasher,

you can save about 20 seconds on the unload. We just talked about this on the podcast like only a week ago. Did you guys just become best friends? Yeah, it's amazing though, right? So I loved efficiency like that. Try to find it everywhere, including in school, I would like cheat,

because that was more efficient. I remember we got this math problem. We had this math teacher that gave us 200 math problems that we had to solve. And so I was like, all right, we could all solve 200 math problems. Or if we get five of us together, we could each solve 40 of them,

and then come together to share the answers. Are you still using it for? Exactly, right? Delegating. That was my strength. And it's like, oh, it's just getting more work done with less effort was a goal. So, degree in computer science and engineering, that's kind of new, what I knew I wanted to be from about seventh grade on. And I started working at PNG at Procter and Gamble,

and always was good with computers, always good with resources big into the internet. Family got a first computer, took it apart, looked at how it worked, put it back together, and always understood that not so good with people. It was not good with humans, yeah. Because of emotions, right? And feelings.

We're not so logical. I know of emotions, right? And feelings. We're not so logical. I know exactly. I'm gonna add up all the time. The logical thing is this. And that's why Dan Arieli wrote, predictably rational, because we're irrational, but maybe in a slightly predictable way. And then one of the things that it discovered, so my best friend

in college wanted to start an improv comedy group. He needed people enforcement at join. And what I learned over time, I was terrible at first, but over time I started to realize that the same skills you need to be effective in improv on stage or some of the same skills you need to be effective with humans. And so I started to bring that into my work at P and G

and it's what was helping me get better results with people. It was kind of like this hack as a way of getting people to actually pay attention in my meetings and actually open my emails and actually respond to things. And so I started to explore that kind of intersection of improv and business and humor in the workplace and happiness and productivity. And that ultimately kind of led to where I'm at now.

Do you remember when that first started to work for you? Like do you remember, do you recall like an email or an encounter that you had with someone who were like, oh shit, this kind of works? Yeah works. There's a couple of moments. One moment was that the impetus or the start of it was, I remember being in this meeting that was incredibly boring, one where you're just wishing you were anywhere else, you're watching the paint dry, you're like, man, I wish I could be doing laundry or't laundry or something right now. Like, that would be more fun. And the problem was that I was the one

leading the meeting. Oh, yeah. Right, and so it's like, if I'm board while talking, they have to be board while listening. And I had recently watched her red or something that Hitchcock is in every single one of his films. I've heard Hitchcock, he's like in the background as a silhouette or a stranger that walks by or it's kind of like how Stanley is in all the Marvel films.

And so I was like, what if I put me in every one of my presentations? What if I had to like have an image of me as a kid and like tell some story that somehow related to the talk or whatever. Or what if I like. Yeah. And my favorite one was I made an Excel spreadsheet that kind of made kind of my silhouette of fake data Just a kind of incorporate because every meeting it would be something else How do I incorporate myself and I noticed people started kind of paying attention and then they would like say hey

I see you like they started like actually engaging with what I was talking about Smart yeah, and so that was one where it started to go But I think the real big moment that I realized it was working is that I love puns, love word play. And so at the end of my weekly status emails, I would send, I would include a pun. That was related to the email in some way. And I had done that for quite a little while, and then I come in to work on Monday morning

and I had a bunch of email replies to one weekly status report and I was like, oh, like, what did I do wrong or did I offend someone what happened? And I had forgotten to include the jokes. And people were responding, they're like, where are the jokes? I was reading this through the jokes. Are you still doing jokes, right? Yeah, come on, funny man. Make me laugh.

That's the only reason why I click on your emails is to read the jokes. And I realized that it was working. I realized that, you know, as a project manager, to at least know that someone opened an email and scrolled to the bottom, I don't know if they read this stuff above it, but at least the fact that they were looking forward to that, I was like, okay, there's something to this.

Yeah, absolutely. When people enjoy something, they just absorb it more. They have a tendency to want to listen and pay attention. I learned this as a trainer. It took me a while to figure this out. Like, oh, if I make my clients enjoy this process, they're gonna show up and be better at what I've been doing. Or make it more relatable by adding your own stories

that are similar to their experiences and what they're going through with that as well. That really helped a lot. Well, and I think it's similar to, yeah, what you're talking about with clients and working out is that you know there's gonna be tough, stuff that is tough. And you actually want that.

Like you wanna come and work out and you wanna feel a little bit sore afterwards, you wanna push yourself. And the same thing with work, you want to continue to get better. And this is why like, you know, when I talk, like stress isn't a bad thing. By itself, stress is how we grow.

It's how we grow muscles. Is it how we improve our capacity as people? It's chronic stress that is bad. And so if not everything is gonna be perfect, but if the things surrounding it, if when they come into the gym or come and talk to you, they enjoy that part of the process and you leave them on a positive note,

that's what they're gonna remember. And they're like, oh, that was, it was hard, but fun. Yeah. So you're taking these classes, you're now starting to implement it into meetings, emails, starting to see like, oh shit, this is working. What's going on now from there?

So from there, I, so I, when I first started working at PNG, I created a blog called Life of a New Hire because internally had blogs and, you know, elder millennial, so I am of the generation where I'm like, I have a voice and people should listen to it. I think that's kind of a millennial thing.

It should be the manager, yeah. Exactly. It's very, I was talking to... I'm offended. Right. Right. I do appreciate that I got swagged, though, because I was like, this is kind of my participation trophy.

Regardless of how this goes, I'm walking away with something. You get something, yes. We've learned to do that. And I was talking to a friend of mine who, the stand up comedy is a surreal thing because you're like, you know what, I have thoughts and people should listen to them, right? It's a little bit narcissistic and maybe I had that a little bit at PNG. So I started this blog, Life of a New Hire and I did that for a year and people actually really enjoyed it.

It was all of the experiences that it had as a new hire, the trainings that I was taking and how it was onboarding and what was going well, what was going poorly. And so a year after, I'm an engineer, so I'm very specific in certain ways, where I'm like, okay, after a year, I'm no longer a new hire. I have to do something else. But I liked blogging, it was good for my personal brand,

and the humor stuff was working, so I decided to proclaim myself the corporate humorist of PNG. I like, got business cards made, I continued the blog, I got humor.pg.com internally, and I kind of assumed someone would stop me. Right, I assumed someone from HR or legal would come up and be like, hey, you can't just create your own job title. Yeah, you do.

But no one ever did. And I still did my PNG. I did still did my project management work, but I started to want more and more. And as I started to blog about it, I then started doing the research about it. And then started seeing that, oh, there's research in the Harvard Business Review.

There's research in the New York Times. There's research dating back for quite a bit of ways that hey, humor is actually a effective tool that we can use in the workplace. And so I realized, it became a passion of mine. And as I started speaking internally at PNG, I realized it was standup with a message. Like the standup that I was doing outside of PNG,

I got to make people laugh, but I couldn't be like, all right, now, you know, it's Friday night, it's 10 p.m., you've had a couple of drinks, I've just made you laugh about something. I can't even be like, all right, now, you know, it's Friday night, it's 10 p.m. You've had a couple of drinks. I've just made you laugh about something. I can't even be like, all right, now, if you want to solve that problem here, the three steps you need to do.

Yeah. Right. Drunk people at 10 p.m. on a Friday, now I are not looking for that. So at this point, were you doing more of the improv with your group, or were you actually breaking off and trying out your own standup? I was doing a little bit of both.

So college, we start the improv comedy group. I graduate, I go to Cincinnati first, where I grew up, and then also that's the Global Headquarters of PNG. So I did a little bit of, I started to do stand up there. And then I moved to New York City with Procter & Gamble. I moved for a role, and that's when I started taking a bunch of improv classes and doing stand up. I have to ask you about your first time that you got in front of everybody and did your

first standup set. Standup set? How'd that go? Well, that's interesting because it's like, so I did stand up the first time a year after starting improv. We were at Ohio State and there was a standup comedy competition. So a bunch of people and the improv group are like, oh, if we can be funny when we make it up, we've got to be able to be funny when we write it down beforehand.

Turns out that stand-up is way harder than improv, because the expectation is lower. Improv, you're getting a suggestion from the audience and everyone is like, okay, yeah, we all know it's being made up on the spot. Stand up, there's almost this like, you think you're funny? Yeah. Prove it. Where's the funny the spot, stand up, there's almost it's like, you think you're funny? Yeah.

Prove it. Where's the funny? Yeah, we have, bring it. So the bar is much higher, but the first laugh that I got in stand up, I was incredibly nervous like three days before, shaking anytime I started thinking about doing that I was gonna do it, couldn't eat,

but the first laugh I got was proof to me that I was funny. Because in improv, there's part of my head that was like, you know what, maybe just the people around me are funny, right? Maybe I just happen to be on stage while they're being very funny and so people are kind of being nice to me and laughing. Because I was never the life of the party. I was never the class clown. I never saw myself performing. I wasn't a person that was like looking at standup and be like, I'm gonna do that someday. It was more of like getting pushed into it.

And so getting that first laugh was like, okay, there is actually something to this. And then I was still incredibly nervous a lot of times. I don't really get nervous now. I get excited to do standup, but I've done over a thousand shows between Impraven, standup at this point that it's like now, you know, it's a common day.

It's good reps you put in, yeah. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I talk all the time about like reps. That's how you get better at any skill, which I think humor is a skill. Absolutely. Now bring us to the TED Talk that you were on that went so big. Yeah, so that's, so I'm the self-proclaimed corporate humor as a PNG, I fall in love with that work. I create a spreadsheet called Operation Leave Corporate America because I love spreadsheets.

And it was like, all right, I think I wanna leave PNG and I think I wanna speak or I think I wanna do this thing around humor. You're putting that out there at why you're working there? Yeah, I'm working on it. Yeah, I'm my day, my day can prove. You're like, pros, cons.

Exactly. Yeah. I like the consistent paycheck at PNG. But, you know, I have to come into the cubic one. I have to sit through meetings. But, you know, so the pros and cons of it, and I start in my company, humor that works part time in 2009. So 2007, I proclaim myself the corporate humorous.

2009, I start humor that works to say, okay, I think this is something that I want to take internal. 2010, I'm like, this is what I want to do for a living. Let me create the spreadsheet. Now, is that, are you seeing like major traction on the blog and stuff? Like, what's giving you those signals that I'm gonna do? Exactly. So I'm starting to see traction.

I'm starting to notice myself that like, I always enjoyed my work at PNG. Like, I love the, I love the projects that I was on. I was very challenged. I had the projects that I was on. I was very challenged. I had great managers. It was exciting work. But the more I did speaking and training, the more I fell in love with that. And so the spreadsheet was basically to say, can I do this?

From PNG terminology, it was, do I have reasons to believe? I will be successful. And that was, okay, do I have a website with client lists? Do I have testimonials? Do I have, can I take a week of vacation and still actually be productive where no one's looking over my shoulder to make sure that I'm getting blogged post out

or I'm writing an email? And so I do all that. It takes about two years for me to check off everything on the spreadsheet, and then I feel comfortable that I can leave. So then I leave PNG in 2012. I hit a year worth of savings that if I ate ramen noodles and dollar pizza in New York City,

I could get by. So I didn't have to make money. And for some reason, I believe you actually mathematically figured that out. Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. I had the budget and then I was like, okay. And then it was like, oh, wait, no,

I can splurge right now on a McDonald's 2 for 3 sandwich, right? I'm doing okay. And that was, and's like, oh wait, no, I can splurge right now on a McDonald's 2 for 3 sandwich, right? I'm doing okay. And that was, and I like, because my thought was, if it goes terribly wrong, if I don't make any money or anything like that, I can get another job in IT. The fact that I had PNG on the resume

at a green computer science and engineering, and some social skills, like to be a computer science engineer and have social skills, is like, that's gonna put me above a lot of other, you know. So you're gonna choose a cabra. Exactly, right? Yeah.

Yeah, people are gonna take notice of that. They're like, the guy, that engineer made me smile, maybe not full on laugh, but smile. That's feel okay right now. He's not weird, yeah. Yeah, he's not weird. He's socially okay. So that, you know, I was like, okay,

if it goes terribly wrong, I'll get another job in IT and then I haven't had to do that. That was seven years ago. And so continue to push this idea of humor in the workplace and find, how do we bring that intersection? Right, how do we bring more joy into the workplace so that we get better results? And because it was something that not a ton of people

seem to be talking about. There's other people who talk about humor in the workplace, but not too many people that bring the engineering side of it. And so- What do you mean by that? In other words, the productivity that it provides, the actual benefit to the company, what do you mean by the engineering behind it?

Yeah, I mean, I think both, I think one people think of humor is a nice to have. Like they think, all right, if I enjoyed my work a little bit more, that'd be cool, but, you know, if not, what can you do? You know, work is supposed to feel like work and all that. And it's my belief that, no, kind of to your point before of like,

if you find a little bit of enjoyment out of what you do, you're more likely to do it. And it was insane to me that so many people that I knew would be on Sunday dreading going into work on Monday. And just looking at the statistics, like the average person will work 90,000 hours in their lifetime. That is longer than everything on Netflix.

Like that's my comparison, that's a long time. And so it's like for us to spend that much time at work hating it, like one, maybe work has to change, but two, maybe our perspective has to change. And so I did my first TEDx talk at Ohio State, and there I kind of talked about humor in the workplace and this realization that I had with the coworker of mine at PNG, where she kind of thanks me for using humor in the workplace. And what I realized from talking with her was, no one ever told me to use humor,

but no one ever stopped me either. And so many people didn't use humor just because they felt like they couldn't. And so that was kind of part of it like, oh, okay, one, we should be intentional about using humor. It is something that's going to get you better results. And two, I think the other thing that was unique, at a little bit different was for me to say, no, you can learn this. Like a lot of people think that it's an innate thing, right? Like, would you

get sensitive to yourselves funny? Definitely. My kids would say, it's just as funny. Yeah, just as funny because just as funny by osmosis, the just sound, I a little bit funny. Right. Yeah, you get to build it into it, right? And this happens all the time of like when I'm talking with different groups, I'm like, okay, like, you know, rate your skill of humor on a one to five. And most people pick like a two or a three.

But the reality is that humor is a skill which means it can be learned, right? It's like cooking. Is anyone born a natural chef? Maybe some people are born with certain taste buds and they're pretty good at it naturally, but anyone can take wherever they are to a little bit further with some training.

And that's what I mean about the engineering approaches. Rather than, oh, humor is fun, but I don't know how to create it to like, no, here are like, here are the 10 devices that comedians use pretty consistently to make people laugh. Now, have you figured out in the corporate setting, like what that threshold is in terms of inappropriate to like acceptable and g-rated sort of?

Oh, for sure. There's a big difference between what's appropriate on a comedy stage versus what's appropriate in a corporate setting, for sure. And part of that is education of like what is appropriate. And so I'm curious from you guys, I like that we have a good group of a quorum that we can kind of talk about some of the stuff,

is what do you think of some of the advantages of say doing comedy on a stand-up stage versus say in the office? Well, well, you're expected on a stage, people are anticipating comedy, and it's okay to be very offensive, although nowadays it's a little bit different, but you can be very offensive,

you can talk about things that in the office, there's like a different threshold of what's considered. Well, you're considering everybody else around you versus like going to see this show, it's really about you and your experience, if that makes sense. Well, anything that's taboo is almost encouraged on stage. Like if it's, if you were to push it a little further.

We're on, in corporate, it's like, oh, you gotta be very careful. Oh, for sure. Yeah, and I think that's probably the biggest difference of like a lot of people now are talking about Chappelle's new special and Netflix. Oh, great. I wanted to get into this.

Yeah, and I enjoyed it. I think there's certainly some things that he talks about that I wouldn't talk about, but just the craft of comedy is very, very impressive. That was masterful to me. And the ways that he makes certain points are very, very funny. Oh, he takes you on a ride.

You expect him to go over here, but he comes from the other angle and just, Yeah, and he comes back and you laugh. And then what I think is amazing about, I think we're seeing a shift in comedy now, and this is what I appreciate, is we're having more and more comedy with the message. Like if you look at Sh Chipel's most recent one,

his point about the inward versus the f word where he talks about like, hey, how can I can say the inward, but I can say the f word? And it's like, oh well, because you're not gay. And he's like, yeah, but I'm not an inward either. So that doesn't make any sense. Or then his point about...

Yeah, it's inconsistent. Yeah, about making it okay, the story that he talks about. And this might be in the epilogue, I can't remember, where he talks about talking to a trans woman after a show. And about how when he talked about Trump, he normalized Trump. But when he talked about Trump, he normalized Trump. But when he talks about trends, it's offensive as opposed to the trans person was saying,

no, but you help normalize being trans. The fact that you are making jokes about it means that this is a normal, okay thing that you're not walking on edge. Yeah, I've noticed that too, even with people with disabilities and things like that, it's tough because a lot of people want to immediately are they're more offended by it than a lot of times

a person with the disabilities. Because again, to your point, they want to be normalized. They want to be a part of the group and experience the same sort of... Razzing. Yeah, razzing. Just normal things you do amongst friends. Absolutely.

Yeah, people are getting offended on behalf of other people now. Right. Which is great for empathy, but maybe a little bit too far in one direction. And so I mean it, but I think you see that with Anogatsby's Nanette Comedy Special, which was fantastic and Hassan Menages

was more of almost like a speaking event. So you're seeing more and more comedy with the message, which I really appreciate. But to your point, you are kind of looking for those edges as a comedian on a stage. And really, if you don't like what Shepel is saying, don't watch his Netflix special. Well, do you feel like this is gonna be a definitive moment now

where other comedians are gonna have the courage to kind of come out and kind of battle a little bit of this tyranny that they're experiencing in terms of people wanting to get them fired from TV shows, fired from specials like, you know, like stifle them from saying what they wanna say. Like do you feel like a lot of comedians now have that as an example of like, okay, now I can present these ideas?

I think yes, I think the, on the flip side of it, the disadvantage is that people are going to say, well, Chappelle talked about it, so I'm going to, and they're going to do it as, because there's, I think intent comes into play a lot. Totally. Yeah. Like, I think Chappelle, I don't think is a tent for those things, and again, I don't, you can't know any human, but the way he crafts it and the fact that he brings it back to a message is powerful versus I think some people are going to take that and it's like, oh, but the way he crafts it and the fact that he brings it back to a message is powerful, versus I think some people are gonna take that

and it's like, oh, well, he said all those stuff, so I can just be super offensive. It's gonna be crude and just offensive. Yeah. And that's one of the challenges for me. So my standup, regardless of when I'm doing it, can be a Friday 10 p.m. show when people are like, you know, drunk and they want some more risqué stuff.

My material is always rated mom. I want my mom to watch anything that I do and be proud. So I don't custom stay, I don't talk about taboo subjects or anything like that. And that's just a choice that I made earlier on just because it's my brand. Do you find that more challenging time, man? Oh, for sure.

I would think it's way more challenging. But it's amazing to me, because I'll sometimes go up after people who are talking about all manner of things, and then I'll go up and do a little bit of wordplay. Like I said, I love dumb jokes, so I'll do something stupid. A man asked me if I wanted some free fish,

so I asked, what's the catch? Yeah. Right? Like, is something dumb joke or whatever. Yeah. I've been recently doing so and this is and this is kind of interesting because I do stand up as a way to write material for speaking. And I don't know always know how it's going to connect. So I did a little mn to like puns around ghosts and then I recently discovered or realized that more people believe in ghosts than like what they do for a living. That's interesting. That's crazy.

Probably true. Yeah, but it's true. Like just for real. Just for real. Yeah. So I'm like, I don't know if I believe in ghosts or not, but if I do, you know, my hope is that once you die, there's like a helper ghost. Like if you're gonna die as a ghost, hopefully there's help for ghosts. And like if you're nervous, you're like, you know, you just died,

you passed through the other side. You're like, I'm so nervous, I've never done this like public spooking before. Public spooking. You know, the other help for ghosts is just like, no, it's cool. All you have to do is just act supernatural.

I want super supernatural. Right. So I love humor like that. I'll work it into sets. And then people will boo that material. Oh my god. I just stand up, Cub. And I'm like, wait, love humor like that. I'll work it into sets and then people will boo that material. Oh my god. I just stand up, Cub, and I'm like, wait, you're booing upon, but you are completely okay talking,

this guy talking about crapping himself and then going and doing all this disgusting stuff with whoever, and it's just a surreal experience. But I've gotten confident enough now on stage to be able to play with that. But is it like a real boo, or is it more just like, ah boo, you know? Yeah, it's sometimes, yeah, sometimes more of a playful thing.

It is sometimes like, I don't know, it's weird because you have some comedians who think that if you're trying to add a message into comedy, that you're in it for the wrong reasons. Oh, really? Yeah, there's some comedies like, we don't need your Ted, yeah, go into a Ted Talk instead. Like, really? Yeah, there's some comedies like, we don't need your TED talk, yeah, go into a TED talk instead.

Like, we want just to bring the jokes. And it's like, if, now if I have people's attention, I want to say something with that attention. And that's kind of where the speaking came from is again, it's the expectation if I'm doing a keynote is very different than if I was there just to do corporate entertainment. And what I like in the keynote thing is, yeah, I'm doing a keynote is very different than if I was there just to do corporate entertainment. What I like in the keynote thing is, I'm making people laugh a lot and then, hey, here's

something for you to take with you. Here's, hey, a big lesson that I talk about is you are responsible for your own happiness. It's not up to your boss or your co-workers to make sure that you're happy in what you do. Hopefully, they don't attract from it, but you're responsible for it. And so, take some ownership of that. Here's how humor can help in some ways or maybe go, and maybe it's not humor, maybe it's something else,

but you have to own that. So, our company's hiring you to come in and like consult for them, is that what you would do? Yeah, so a little bit of consulting. It's more on a lot of it is speaking, so it's coming to, you know, a conference or something like that. So, I was just, the I'm out here in the Bay Area is on Tuesday with speaking to a bunch

of dental management consultants about how they can use humor. It's a hilarious group. No, they were fantastic. It was a fantastic group. But as people who go in and help dentists improve their work, and so talking about, okay, how can humor help that? How can humor help? So I've worked with a range of,

so people are like fascinated, like, oh, I've worked with the FBI and they're like, what's that about? I've worked with, done a little bit of consulting with the Red Cross, going to do some work with the UN. Also like big companies like Microsoft and PepsiCo and all that. And it's a wide range.

And the one thing that they all have in common is humans. And humor is effective with humans. So whether you're an FBI agent or a salesperson, if you want to build rapport with someone, humor is a great way to do it. And so that's what I'm teaching them of how to do. And speaking in a lot of times, training setting of like, hey, here's a workshop.

Let's come in and do that. Now, Andrew, have you done research in terms of like statistics around humor and why we find things funny anyway? Like, why do we laugh at things and why is it placed such an important role in society or an important role in communication? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of research out there. So there's a couple of great books.

There's a great book called The Humor Code by Peter McGraw. And he explores the different theories of humor. So there's a theory that there's the incongruity theory which means that we laugh when we're surprised. Something kind of jumps out of us and it's okay then we kind of laugh at that. There's a superiority theory which says

that we laugh when we feel superior to other people, that like something bad happens, it's shot and fraud, right? Something bad happens to someone else and we kind of laugh at that. There is, there's a couple of other theories, and then the big one that's probably most popular right now, which is about the humor code is called the benign violation theory.

And this is that we laugh when we perceive a violation, but we only laugh once we recognize that violation is benign in some way. So it's not a big deal. So puns are an example of we're violating the English language, because we're breaking it in some way, but it's benign, no one's getting hurt, so maybe we laugh. Or I think of it as there's a great quote,

and I don't remember who said it is, tragedy is I cut my finger. Comedy is you've fallen to a sewer and die. And it's like this extreme, but the benign violation says that if you cut your finger, it's a violation, but it's not benign because you feel pain. Whereas if someone else falls into a sewer and dies, it's a violation, but it doesn't harm you, so you're gonna kind of laugh about it.

And like we all did. Yeah, like we all did. But what's interesting though, and this is what I think is fascinating, at least for myself, is that you don't actually have to know why we laugh, to be able to make people laugh. And so my focus, and that's one of the other difference between me and a lot of other,

some of the researchers out there, which are doing fantastic work on the Y and how it works, and also the physiological benefits and what's actually going on in the body. And, you know, there's a great book out there that's about kind of the evolution of humans and how humor played a role in that, because once you have the base level of things

of like you had a provider that, you know, could get food for you and could do all that, the then defining mark was, did you have fun with them? And so people think that sense of humor evolved over time as a way to select who you would breed with, which is why I think we see in a lot of studies, sense of humor is usually number one or number two for both men and women and what they seek

in another partner. But all that said is you don't have to understand any of that to effectively use humor. So my focus is more on how do we actually use humor? How do we teach that as a scale and use it intentionally to get a certain result as opposed to exactly how does it work? But I am fascinated by how. Do we know that do we know the history of it like how it evolved and how it did come about like when do we all support gestures? Right. Do we know the evolution? I mean, we know some of it.

And I think it's more in the book. I don't know kind of the initial, you know, I don't know that we know the first joke that was said. We do know some early puns. They found cave drawings that suggest that there was kind of like puns and wordplay even in cave drawings. You think back to like the Iliad,

one of the first kind of written books that got printed over time. There's a couple of kind of puns within there. Shakespeare was a fan of puns. I know specifically about puns because I started writing an article and defensive puns. Well, I would imagine that's kind of one of the first stuff that we'd have documented would be puns. Right.

Yeah, that written thing. I mean, from an evolution, from an art form perspective, stand up comedy is very much kind of giving credit here in the US as an art form, but its origin started initially in the UK. So the UK had these music calls where people would come and play music and then in between they would have a host and that host would do a little bit of material. And so where we get, I don't know if you guys are familiar with the term blue comedy or blue material. So it's the idea of something that is too risky, if you're talking about sex or drugs or other things, it's called blue material. And where we think that that comes from, we don't know for sure, is that in these music calls,

you used to have to get everything that you're going to say approved, and anything that they didn't like, they would cross out and blue ink. Or see. Because they're like, okay, you can't talk about the queen like that, you can't talk about this subject, you can't do that, because it was much more censored then. And so we think that we get, that's where, you know, the term blue material goes.

Interesting. Now let's talk about the skill of humor. Let's say somebody's listening right now and they're like, okay, I'd like to work on being funnier or I'd like to work on developing a better sense of humor. Where do they start? What are the steps? Yeah, so there's three and this kind of gets into

what the subject of the second TEDx was talk about was about the skill of humor. And I think that's why I drew people in is a lot of times people are like, is it still can it be learned? And so the skill of humor kind of breaks down to three components, I think. The first is your sense of humor.

This is like, what do you find funny? What makes you laugh? And what do you find interesting? What makes you go, huh? That's kind of interesting, right? Like just something that kind of peaks your curiosity as a starting point. That's because every comedian has their own,

you can kind of translate this into their own perspective or their own point of view, right? Dave Chappelle's point of view is very different than Ellen DeGeneres, right? Which is different than Hannah Gatsby, which is different than Tegna Taro, which is different than Chris Rock and Kevin Hart. They all have their own unique take on the world.

So how you see the world is a big part of your skill of what you find interesting. The second component is your ability to humor. The fact, like, can you write content? Can you take this, you know, initial kind of initial aha moment and turn it into something? So the example that I give in the TEDx talk is around the rapper flow writer.

You guys know the rapper flow writer? Yeah, where you guys name? Exactly, where he got his name. Like, it took me going to the state of Florida. Oh, I can really like that. I put that together. Yeah, it took me far from that. His me going to the state of Florida. I put that together. Yeah, it took me far. He's named from his home state of Florida.

Flow, right? And he put a space in it. To me, that blew my mind, right? So that is the, that's the like, huh, that's interesting. And so then the content piece of it, and this you can learn from improvisation, the idea of yes and or building, or if you take classes at UCBS specific school in New York and LA They teach if this is true. What else is true? Right, there's a logic to comedy in a sense of like okay if it's true

Flowwriter got his name from his home state or his his name suggests where he's from what else could be true Hmm, right? So in the TEDx talk. I say okay. You could do that with other brands Right, you could take other states and put spaces in them. So you could have a Hispanic travel agency in Dover called Dayla Wear. Or you could have a female internet detective who's married who goes by Mrs. IPPI. And so that's one direction that you can go. And so if this is true, what else is true? The writing of content is once I had that aha moment

of flow writer as a space. And then I just looked at all of the states and put spaces in kind of different spots to see, like, okay, Allah Bama, does that make anything? No, okay, Allah, Alaska, Al-Aska. Maybe there's something there. So then it's just that process of, okay, let me go through every single state

and the two I think the work the best are Dayla Ware and Mrs. IPPI. So it's that, can you do that writing piece? Or can you go a different direction? So the other way that you can go with that joke is, all right, so a flowrider is kind of a hidden message as to where flowrider is really from. It's like, okay, where is Bruno Mars really from?

Yeah, all right. Right. It's just a different direction, something silly. So in other words, like if you find something that peaks your interest like that, it may give you that hot. There's something there for you to kind of dive in, and you could probably figure out a way

to create comedy around it. Exactly, right? I've heard from another comedian too, like there's a practice before she got into stand up comedy where you had to list out 50 of things that you absolutely hate and 50 things that you absolutely love. It had to be a very striking difference between the two. You're very passionate about those subject matters and then you find those types of opportunities within those subjects to tie it all together.

Oh, for sure, and that passion, I think, is really, really important. So for example, I'm curious from you, like, yeah, what is something that you hate? What is something that is a pet peeve or drives you to the tea? Yellow jackets. Yellow, like the bees or like just,

okay, so not people wearing a jacket that is yellow No, yeah, not yellow and bikers. Those are my two Can't fucking stand on this so a biker gang of yellow jackets would be the worst thing The worst thing I'm out. It is gonna steer into a middle on the road or something like that Okay, right? Yeah, so you can take that that passion and like start to explore that so part of comedy is The justification of it. So it's like, okay, why bikers? Why do you hate bikers?

Yeah, I've actually been hit twice. By a bike. Yeah, they ran into the back of my car. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, and their assholes. And they're out there just being loud and they think they're tough and, you know. Yeah, right?

It's annoying. You can start to take some of this ideas of like, okay, yeah, because bikers do, they kind of think they can tough and, you know. Yeah, right? It's annoying. You can start to take some of this ideas of like, okay, yeah, because bikers do, they kind of think they can go anywhere, right? They're like the mix of, they're like, we can be kind of a pedestrian, but also kind of a vehicle at the same time, right? So then you can tell.

I'm tough, but I need a bunch of friends to back up. Right. So then you can say, okay, if this is true, what else is true? And so you can think, okay, where else would bikers, what else do bikers do in that kind of scenario? Do they like, if they're riding through a mall, would they go up an escalator?

I don't know. So it's just an exploring different ideas. Or where else do they think that they have the right away even when they don't? Right. Are they going into the store and bypassing people in the line? I don't know.

Again, it's just exploring these ideas until something kind of like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Like, let's hit any other things that you guys ain't. No, that's clever right there. I know some, you hate what? You hate it when we're at the airport and people stand right in front of the bag carousel.

Oh yeah, on the bags going around. Like why are you standing right in front of it? What a great point to you made that one so like, yeah, he's right. It drives me. You know what he's talking about? Oh yeah. Yeah, we the thing cut this a point. Yeah, that one so like, yeah, it's right. It drives me. You know what he's talking about? Yeah. Yeah, we the thing cut this a point.

Yeah, they don't come out until, I don't know, 15 minutes later, but people for some reason all line up and they all, the first only 50 people or so can fit around there. And we don't know if your bag is one of the first 50 or not, but you now have blocked it for potentially somebody else's career. Yeah, so now you're blocking the view for it and all that. Yeah, so that's for sure. So then, you know, the concept of if this is true, what else is true, you can say, okay,

if they do this behavior here, what else do they do? Yeah, what other behavior, or where else might they do that exact same behavior? Are they like, you know, if they're getting ready to get served food that they all go and hoard towards it? Or, I'm trying to think of the other. I get the concept.

Like, I get the concept of what you're doing. I never thought that you could do that, or maybe that's how a lot of comedians come up with their material is they find an aha moment and then you just start. I got one for you. Something that I think is, for me, it's super annoying. I think it's totally silly is when, I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this, you're on a plane, plane lands, they applaud. People clap because the plane landed.

I think that's, you know how condescending that would be for any other job. You imagine you go to get a cheeseburger, guy brings you out the cheeseburger, you give him a, thank you for my cheeseburger, you gotta be like, fuck you, I just did my job. Why are you clapping? Of course I made you a cheeseburger.

I think it's so silly that we do that. Yeah, that's a fantastic example of this is true. What else is true? But then also from a perspective standpoint, when as soon as you said that my first thought was, I get a pause all the time. Like in a sense of like, I just told it, if I tell a really good joke, I get a pause.

The fact that a pilot landed a plane safely and you did not die, that's probably a little bit more a pause worthy than me having a good couple of like puns together. So, right? So you can explore this whole thing. I think we applaud at the wrong thing, right? And now this becomes an entire bit where it's like, okay, we applaud at this

and you might go into like, I have a thing about standing ovation. Like I don't like them. I hate when I'm forced into a standing ovation. Oh, I hate that when everybody else is standing up and I'm like, oh fuck, yeah, stand up to a club. And it usually starts with like three people so then a few other people and you're like,

no, don't buy into their fake standing ovation. Like now I've got to get up too, because otherwise then I just look like a jerk. Yeah. Right, and then, yeah. So that's all kind of there's a slide to it. And so one of the things about Sense of Humor, so I think there's kind of three things

that comedians do. We're tied to each one of these components of the skill. With a sense of humor, whatever a comedian does and what, if you want to learn to be funny or what you can start doing today, is start a humor notebook. Is start a notebook whether it's physical or virtual, like I use ever note, but one spot where anytime we have that thought of like, huh, that's kind of interesting. Or that was funny. Or that made me laugh, or I just made someone laugh with a certain thing,

write it down a notebook, because we as comedians have these humor notebooks, and that way, when we have a little bit of time, and we want to create funny, rather than sitting down with a blank slate and be like, okay, be funny. Which is hard to do, you can start with a notebook and be like, oh yeah, I remember a couple weeks ago, I kind of had this thought, let me explore it.

Now, I completely agree that humor is a skill like any other skill. And you'll find people who come from funny households or people who have some kind of a physical defect, maybe they were overweight or short or whatever, tend to have better sense of humor is probably because they had to develop it in order to make friends.

But why don't more people practice humor? Is it because of the fear of rejection? Because I've heard from comedians who've said it takes five to 10 years before you're actually really good on stage. That amount of rejection has got to be terrifying because I can mess up on practicing something else and I'm not messing up in front of a bunch of people

every single time. Is that why people don't practice it? I mean not messing up in front of a bunch of people every single time. Is that why people don't practice it? I mean, I think that's probably a component of it. And for sure, I think there's a lot of truth to, you know, a lot of famous comedians to say it can take seven to ten years to get good in Kami partially because you're finding your voice. You're finding what is your persona on stage. It took me a long time, and it took other people kind of articulating it is that I am through

and through an engineer. My voice on stage is how an engineer sees the world. And that actually helps me once I kind of get, once I realize that it's like, okay, what's my engineering approach to dating? Like, I went on 96 first dates in 2018, like because I turned it into a project and like 96 first dates. Holy shit. Oh, how many seconds did it?

Multiple 50, like 50 second dates. It was tender, it was hinge, it was bumble. It was a couple, there's a service in New York for like to set up like blind dates, like a dating service and they need it more men because they had a lot of women. Dude, I am so curious of what you found I mean obviously you you tracked all this so I tracked all this and so I I should you I should say first now that I am through the 96 dates I

found a woman who we've been dating for over a year now and things are going incredibly well with her and she's not a fan of me always talking about this, but she went through a tough relationship and then she went on like a little bit later, took some time off and then she went on three dates and I was date number two. And so then we started hanging out. I went on 96 dates.

I feel like that's even more credit to like how amazing she is. Yeah, right? When number was she? She was number like 72. Okay. Because we both traveled a lot. Number 72. And so we went on our first date and it was very nice, but then it was like three weeks later that we could go on the second date.

And this is the challenge of what I do of like traveling all the time. I'd go on one date and be like, okay, what's your availability three weeks from now? Right. Which is tough in the dating scene. And so I learned quite a bit. I learned a lot about myself. I learned very early on, this is the engineering side, is that in texting before meeting in person,

I would try to find some way to steer the conversation. And usually it would be like, hey, we should maybe grab a drink, but before we do, we should probably find out if we're mortal enemies or not. And so then they'd be laughing like, how do you do that? And I'm like, oh, funny, you should ask.

Do you have any like deal breakers? Like major pet peezer deal breakers? Because of what I realized is that, I have a couple of deal breakers. And so I wanted to confirm whether they were, they had that. Get that out of the way. But I first start with what their deal breakers are

so that then I can be like, oh, and hear a mind, right? Because I just realized like for me, I'm not super religious and I had previous relationships where someone's like a go to church every Sunday type of person, which is fantastic, great for them. It's not for me. And so I wanted to find out before we went on a date,

if they were someone who goes to church every single Sunday or was super religious, regardless of what the religion was, for me to be like, okay, it's probably not gonna work out. And that's just from, you know, experience of a bunch of dates and realizing like it wasn't a good fit. And same thing for like other people, people were like, oh, you know, want to date someone who is who likes to smoke.

I don't smoke. So it's like, okay, that's not going to work out. So I want it to get that, I realize like texting is a process to weed out the number of like dates that you go on. And so learn that. And then in the first conversation, the other thing that I learned was I started to try to get good at, when I first started texting with people,

because I'm an introvert and I'm still awkward at times, but I was like, oh, if I end everything with a question, that's a prompt for them to respond back. And at first I thought that was good, but then I realized I was going on dates where I had to carry the conversation. And like I said, I'm an introvert, I can only carry it so far. You gotta meet me halfway. And like I said, I'm an introvert, I can only carry it so far.

Right, you gotta like meet me halfway. And so I was going on these dates where I would just be like pretty awkward. And so I was like, okay, in the texting, I need to ask some questions so that they respond, but at some point I need to leave it up to them to see if they can pick up the conversation if they're gonna continue it.

And so these were all like, it was just kinda data points to be like, okay, what can I find, what works? And so the woman that I'm dating now, she's German, so it's the most efficient relationship that I've ever been in. But I feel like she kind of appreciates it. And in fact, one of the things that was kind of a like,

I really kind of like her was she, she shared a spreadsheet with me of travel, because she travels quite a bit for work. So she was like, here, I put out all my travel for the rest of the year. If you were to put all of your travel in there as well, we would see when we're both in town and we can meet up or we would see a way.

It's such a good year thing to do, right? And I was like, how hot is that, right? A spreadsheet, that's one of the sexiest things anyone's ever sent me. I mean, lay it on the floor. Right, that's my approach. That's how I'm an engineer. like sexiest things anyone's ever sent me. I mean, lay it on the floor. Right. Right. But that's my approach. That's how I'm an engineer.

And so from a comedic standpoint, it's like, okay, how can I take that lens, not through computer science, which I can talk about, but how can I talk about dating this way? How can I talk about emotions? How can I talk about these other things? And kind of to go back to your point

about this idea of failure, is that I think coming from improv, improv changed my life, doing improv, change my life. It's one of the things and kind of to go back to your point about this idea of failure, is that I think coming from improv, improv changed my life, doing improv, change my life. It's one of the things that I think everyone should take an improv class at some point. Because you learn social skills, you start to learn, yes, and as a mindset, it's a great mentality to have.

But what I also learned from it was that failure is just data. Like if I'm gonna stand up comedian, I get up and I try a joke and no one laughs, it's not commentary on my worth as a human being, it's just data about that joke. And that's what I love about comedy is that it's this logical kind of like logic thing that you can do a logic problem that you try to solve.

It's iterative, you try it a bunch of different ways. And if I change this word, is this funnier? Is Dayla aware of funnier? Is it funnier if it's a Hispanic travel agency called DaylaWare? Is it funnier if it's a Hispanic travel agency called dayla wear? Is it funnier if it's a Hispanic textiles manufacturing company? Or, you know, like just these different tweaks than you're trying. The advantage to doing improv and doing stand-up is you have a safe space to do it. Like if you go and bomb at a stand-up club, like at an open mic, the expectation, the consequences are very low.

If you do that, if you try a joke in the workplace, the consequences feel higher. So if we go back to kind of what are the differences between kind of the stage and the workplace, the workplace, the stakes are higher. If you say an inappropriate joke in a comedy club, people just don't come and see you. They just like, I don't like Shepel,

they give it a zero on rotten tomatoes or whatever. If you say something inappropriate at the workplace, you could get fired. There could be it like, when I talk with CEOs, they're like, what do we do about lawsuits? How do we avoid lawsuits? That's a big thing that we're focused on. The stakes are higher. That's why in the workplace, the goal is not to be seen as the funniest person ever. The goal is not for people to be like, you're so funny, you should do stand-up comedy.

The goal is to get specific results and what that means, typically in the workplaces and is using appropriate humor. Maybe not humor that's gonna be the funniest thing that's gonna get you a Netflix comedy special, but a type of humor that's gonna help you build rapport with someone or gonna help you get people to actually read the email.

Engage them. Engagement, exactly. I'm gonna go back to your dating. Yeah. Did you figure out with your profile and the way that you set that up, the right picture, the right little witty saying, what got the best response, all that kind of stuff?

I did a little bit and what's great is, is there's research out there, because I'm also a big fan of Google. So like, okay, Cupid years ago, before even apps were a big thing, they had a lot of data. So they're like, okay, for men, it's good to, your first picture shouldn't be a smile,

your second picture should be, it should be something outdoors, but for women, it should be that they had like a breakdown of like what gave better responses and also instead of, hey, it was something else. So like I did research on some of that. And then even for myself, so speaking of this is connected in a way, maybe.

Because you're talking about the TEDx talk. So my TEDx talk came out, the second one came out in June of 2017. As of January 2018, so six months later, it had 3,000 views. From January of 2018 to May of 2018, so three or four months later, five months later, it then had 200,000 views.

And then by June the year anniversary, it had a million. Well, what are you spying? You're at like five million now, right? Yeah, and I'm at five million now. So it's been growing. The only thing that I know, the only thing that I know, the only thing that I did differently from when it went to 3000

to up to 200,000, then kind of became quote unquote viral, was I put a picture of me doing a TEDx talk on my dating profile. Nice. And so I don't think that's why it led to two, I think what more likely happened. I could start getting a bunch of LinkedIn requests from India and a few other countries.

And so I think it somehow got big in another country and that's birded on to other success elsewhere. But part of me is maybe of the four million women in New York City, maybe a bunch of them saw it and went and watched a talk before reaching out. I had a lot less than four million people reach out to me. That means a lot of them did not like it if that was the case. Right, but it was like that connecting piece. And so I forget what you were doing. Oh, no, it's like that connecting piece.

Yeah, that was just trying to find out if it was a pro file. Oh, yeah, that's the people we had in the profile. But so, yeah, so what I wanted to do was I wanted to, one, I put the TEDx one in there because that means one for the type of people that watch, I'm probably going to be attracted maybe to someone that enjoys TEDx talks. And the fact that they would know that and ask about it is like, okay, that's a good starting point. The other thing is that I would try, what I liked about hinge over the other ones on that's how Sabrina I met was that not only do you, like, you put a picture up there and

then you respond to three different prompts, like, what's your biggest pet peeve or what are your relationship goals or what's your personal brand or that kind of thing. And what I like about that one is you select an individual thing that you like. So instead of just saying, hey, I like your profile complete, you say, I particularly like this picture, right?

Particularly like this prompt. And so one of the prompts that got a lot of attraction from people was under relationship goals. I said, Ann Perkins and Leslie Noep from the office. Love the office. Love the office. And so that was,

so what would happen is people would like that and then that would lead to a quick conversation of like, you gotta be an office fan. Yeah, you gotta be an office fan and then it's like who gets to be Ann Perkins? Cause she gets the way cooler compliments from Leslie Nope. And so then that's a more, it's a more direct thing into a conversation that's playful than it is.

Right. So yeah, how important of a role do you think comedians play in society? I feel like it's getting, it's gotten questioned, you know, in kind of modern times. Do you think they play a big role or an important role? Oh, for sure. in kind of modern times. Do you think they play a big role or an important role? Oh, for sure. I think for a couple of reasons.

One, because comedians are funny, people listen to them. Right, you have a lot more people watching, at least of a younger generation. You have a lot more people watching Seth Meyers or Trevor Noah, or a particular John Stewart when he was on the Daily Show. You had a ton,

the percentage of people that got their news from the Daily Show when John Stewart was on is something absurd. Because it was entertaining, but that's also how they got their news. This is something that we as people in the workplace want to take advantage of is that the idea of like humor creates curiosity, right? You kind of like start listening because you're laughing and all that. And that curiosity leads to learning or leads to action So people were tuning in to the daily show because it was funny and they were getting their news

So more people are watching Comedians and so they're gonna pick up on different things that they're talking about so I think they're important for that reason and to Comedians have to have their finger on the pulse they have to kind of have a good understanding of what's happening in order to make people laugh about it. To the point that a buddy of mine runs an agency called standpoint agency where they, when brands are struggling, they bring in stand-up comedians to make jokes about that brand or make jokes about that product, and then they kind of drill down into those jokes

and say, okay, what insights can we learn from this? I see. Oh wow. Because there's truth in comedy, right? And it's interesting, because if you do storytelling, if you do like say the moth for storytelling, they say that 90% of what you say should be true. Like you have some leniency that you might change,

some facts a little bit, you might reorder some things for structure and clarity, you might exaggerate slightly. When we talk about stand up comedy, it's less about that it has to be 100% true, but more that it should come from truth. So often you're watching a stand up comedian, you're like, oh, that's so true.

Like I never thought about that. And so I think because they're able to articulate that, I think that has an important role. And then I would say the third reason is that, and this is still new, so I don't know how this is gonna come out because I'm still trying to figure out what this means. But if you think about to the original court gesture and if you think back to carnival and Certain kind of like oppressive regimes they were specifically created for catharsis

Right, if you have a court gesture in a court who's making fun of the king the audience the people are then laughing and So they're not revolting, right? Because by creating catharsis, you're creating this release of tension. And so rather than using that tension to create action, you've now released it and you're like, okay, kind of going on to it. And so there's part of me and there's some research out there that suggests by laughing at certain things, by making it a joke. There's some people who blame SNL for the 2016 election.

Because they're like, you normalize this behavior, like I talked about in the Shabel show, you normalize this behavior. And so then we laugh about it instead of like, rising up against it. And so I don't think that there's, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly that means. There's an article in pocket,

so we're talking about pocket earlier. I haven't read it yet, it's on the to-do list, but there's suggestions that the, there was an impact of John Stuart stepping down from the daily show in terms of they think that it swayed voters one way or the other because of just kind of like that's the level of impact that they've had.

Humor also, if you think back to the past few elections from a political standpoint, the funnier candidate has won. Not that any of them were quote unquote funny, but the person with a slightly better sense of humor, one like Bush versus Gore, Bush, the thing that everyone talked about was he's the one that you'd wanna have a beer with, right, that he seemed approachable.

Obama, over a lot of people was like, oh, that he's a funny person, his speech has to have a little bit of humor, that kind of thing. And the debates, at least specifically, Trump versus Clinton, Trump had a couple of zingers and jokes and seemed a little bit playful versus like, say, Clinton did not. And again, I don't know exactly what this means,

and stuff I'm still exploring, but I do think that they have a huge impact. I think humor as a whole has a huge impact on society and comedians as the primary bringers of humor dictate a little bit what you said. Yeah, I would entirely agree. And I think that there's also a little bit of a backlash on telling people what they can and can't say that is funny. And I think that that causes a little bit of a revolt. Like, don't tell me what I can and can't laugh at. It makes it, if anything, it brings it out even more,

in my opinion. We also today have this meme culture, which is massive. There are today's political cartoons, and I have a 14 year old son, and this kid is, I mean, if a meme is out and it's funny, he knows about it instantly, instantly. Him and his friend, Sharon, right away.

And I think those play a, Cherim, right away. And I think those play a huge role in society right now. I know in the past, they were political cartoons, now it's memes, and they play a big role, I would say. You have any opinions on those? Well, I think what's interesting about memes is that it's a way to help people create humor. More people are creating humor because they're like, oh, I can make a meme.

I maybe won't stand up on stage and do stand up comedy, but I can turn this into a meme. And what's interesting about memes and what, so like, I'm a big fan of structure, surprise, right? And so there's certain comedic structures that exist. And what I learned from doing musical improv was that structure actually helps creativity. So often in creativity, we think, oh, we have to be completely unrestricted, we have to be free, we can't like, I need no kind of boundaries or anything like that,

and I'm just gonna wait for the muse to come and all that. The reality though is if you get some sort of inspiration and maybe it's say comes from the humor book and this kind of goes back to the second component of the skill of humor, the ability to humor, is you can follow certain structures. And so memes are a certain structure, right? A new meme comes out and you're like, oh, okay, I can follow that meme.

Like I can, like if you think of, I'm trying to think of some memes that are out. This is older, but like for some reason, the first one that comes to mind is Star Wars from the prequel memes of Anakin saying not just the men, but the women and the children too. And that became a meme where anything that ended in men, you would just change to include other things. So like, you know, not just the humans, but the Hugh women and the Hugh children too.

Right? And so it would get extreme, but that now becomes a structure where you're like, okay, I can think of a word that ends in man or men and then add these two things. So create something that other people can be like, oh, I can practice that. There's ones that exist outside of me, like an association or probably the easiest one is a comic triple, is in a way a certain structure.

So a comic triple is where you have a list of three things where the first two things are kind of normal in a list and then the third thing is unexpected. So my mom, this is a joke that my mom doesn't love because there's not really truth to it, but I think it's a good example of a comic triple is that I say, you know, as a kid, I've always been an engineer, right?

As a kid, I used to like to take things apart and then put them back together again. Things like clocks and radios and my parents' marriage. Yeah. Right. He didn't love it. I mean, my parents did a good divorce, but she's like, she doesn't love that.

She doesn't love that joke. Yeah. Right? Yeah, she's like, it's kind of real. Which like, part of me is like, I feel like we should celebrate divorce. Yeah. Right?

Because I mean, it should be a positive thing. We are like, it's like too adult being like, this isn't working, right? And I feel like to go into a little bit of comedy, like I feel like we should celebrate divorce in the same way that we celebrate a wedding. That there should be a divorce reception, right? You invite all the people who came to the wedding

and give gifts back. Best man gives a speech about how he knew it was never gonna work out. You just have this structure. So this is, again, if this is true, what else is true, the concept of, oh, we should celebrate divorce, okay, what are examples of that?

But the comic triple of clocked radios, my parents' marriage, is a very specific structure within comedy. Cause three is the minimum number you can have to confirm a pattern. Because the first thing suggests, the first thing just exists, the second time something kind of happens in that same area. So clocks, radios, it's like, okay, I know what this pattern is. So then typically a third way would confirm this is the pattern.

Clock's radio's computers. But a comic triple kind of plays on the fact that you think that it's gonna be computer or something related, that's the setup. Exactly, that's the setup for the punchline. That's now a third thing. So anytime this one thing that we talk about in the workshops that we do is anytime you have a list of any size, you could incorporate kind of the concept

of a comic triple, right? So like for example, when I talk about the client list that I have, I could incorporate kind of the concept of a comic triple. Right? So, like, for example, when I talk about the client list that I have, I say that I've spoken or worked with Microsoft, the FBI, and the International Association of K9 professionals. Right? Because that's just like people are like, what? What is that? And it's like, yeah, I spoke for people who train dogs. It was like fascinating.

There's 200 people in the audience and 20 dogs. It was like fascinating. There's 200 people in the audience and 20 dogs. It was amazing. And so that's, again, not necessarily hilarious, but it's following this structure. So memes are structures that people can follow, just as there's other kind of comedic structures. Can those structures be more extended? Like, the joke is like a longer form, but it's still in a triple like that. And then the third one is the hard punch. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it can be extended that way. Or you can have, and this is why stories are so great, is you can tell a story, and that story can include a comic triple, and then maybe it has an association over here a little bit, and then you might have an act out as part

of it, and then you might do some visual thing that you're going to do. And then there might be a voice change that's going to happen. And then you might also include just kind of a specific joke. There might be a little bit of pattern, right? So a story can include the other, I think there's kind of 10 common ones so they can include the other nine. Some of my favorite is when a comedian's personify the audience, like basically get into their mind and then bring it back.

So it's like, they're saying what they're thinking in their head, but they're saying it in a way where it's like condescending or it's making fun of them, you know, for having that thought. Yeah, well, and Jim Gaffigan has done that. His voice of it of like him changing to that high-pitched voice is him particularly. Oh, we're going to hell for that. Yeah, it's something that I love that.

That was a nice Jim Gaffigan slash Mickey Mouse. Yeah. Oh, great. Oh, great. And you can use now because you take so much pride obviously in this and you've actually studied the art so long and so well, can you immediately see when somebody actually has studied or knows the art of comedy as well as you do? And can you know too right away when someone's like, this person is just winging it, like

they think they're funny, they're going up there and versus somebody who's really studied the art like this. Cause I would never have guessed there's so many formulas to it like this. Yeah, and so what I say one is that just from again, the specificity of language of, I don't necessarily think of formulas per se because formulas could create kind of predicted,

like kind of predictable, but I think frameworks. Okay, that's how much you really, right? Yeah, cause if you do something, yeah, if it's straight formula, it's hacky. Like one of the things, I think frameworks. Okay, that's how much, right? Yeah, because if you do something, yeah, if it's straight formula, it's hacky. Like one of the things, and this is a challenge, because when I first started doing comedy, I would read books about every book that I could about it. So there's a book called The Comedy Bible by Judy Carter,

which is seen as like a great intro book for a lot of people. It's a slightly dated now, because in it, it's like, oh, you should always start with a, always have a redefinition joke, where you say, oh, engineer, that's actually Latin for socially awkward. And it can create good jokes, but if it's like everyone's creating a word, oh, that's actually different language for this word, it's like, obvious. Yeah, it's going to be a little bit too obvious. And so I think more kind of frameworks around that.

And I think, I don't think I necessarily think about, ah, that person must be really good about this. It's more about, oh, that comedy itself was good. So like, for example, I don't necessarily love Anthony Jezelnik. Like, I think he's not a person that I'm like, oh, this is a person that I want to go and see a bunch of times.

Like, I would see Eddie is,, like over and over and over again. I would see you out. Well, you kinda get it after a while. I could read right into that formula. But Jessel Nick is a very good joke writer. He is very good at the craft of it. And so I can appreciate the craft of something but not necessarily beyond board with the

Interesting. The topic of it. And I try really, really hard. One of the things that happens a lot with comedians is they stop laughing at things that are funny and instead they just go, oh, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah, I get it.

And it's like, no, no, I want, I still want to laugh as something. I want to be, I want to be both a student of comedy, but then also an appreciator. Yeah, real then a little bit. So who are like, you know, two or three of your favorites and why are they your favorites? So one of my favorites is Eddie Azart.

He's a British comedian. And he is just, he's a fantastic storyteller. So one of my favorite bits of all time is called the Death Star Cantine. And so this is the logic of if this is true, what else is true? So he takes this logic, and I don't think that he necessarily mapped it. I don't think a lot of comedians necessarily

map it out the way that I do, but you can go back and look at it and analyze it in this way. As he was like, all right, if in Star Wars there is a Death Star, right? And if it is true that people live on the Death Star, then it must be true that there is a cafeteria on the Death Star, right?

Cause people have to eat. And if it's true that there's a cafeteria on the Death Star, right? Cause people have to eat. And if it's true that there's a cafeteria on the Death Star, then it is possibly true that Darth Vader has visited that cafeteria. And if that's true, here's his imagination of what happens. And so it's him acting out a scene where Darth Vader goes to the canteen on the Death Star. It's already funny before he did that.

Exactly. So he paints a whole picture, but then his voices of it are great. No, no, no. Yeah. His actouts are very good. It's already funny before he did it. Exactly, so he paints a whole picture, but then his voices of it are great. How he like doesn't. No, no. Yeah. His actouts are very good. He's very good as a performer where you watch him and you're like, he made up all of that like on the spot.

But then you go and watch him the very next night and it's still delivered in a very close way. There's some tangents that are a little bit different. It's just his performance is so good that it, because you want, that's what you want as a comedian. Like I think that's the thing is like, you watch someone like Chris Rock and you're like, he's just getting on stage and talking and anyone could do that.

And it's like, oh no, the craft that he has done is so good that it makes it sound like he's never said this before, even though he's said it, you know, a hundred times already. Totally. What's some of the feedback you've gotten from some of these companies that you've gone and worked with on this?

What do they say afterwards? Yeah, so I mean, there's a lot that the immediate feedback is that people are listening, that they're like, oh, this was fun. I'm doing a lot more closing keynote spots because it's a fun way to end the event with still a little bit of a message. And so people are like, oh, it's the perfect way to end people are leaving laughing, but I saw them taking notes and they had like a good time. So it's good for them because there's this idea

called the peak end principle. We're in any type of situation. So whether it is you're working with a client through working out or it's a story that you're telling or meeting that's having, is that people will remember the peak moment of that experience and the end. Right, so peak end is that,

and this kind of happens with comedy. In comedy, you want to start with something very funny, just so you get people to know, hey, he's worth listening to, or she's worth listening to, right, that they're going to have a good time. Then they're peak, wherever the high point is, people will remember that, and then they'll remember the last thing that happened. And so more and more places are putting me at the clothes because what the remember is, oh, I had a lot of fun.

And that conference, even if the entire rest of the day was boring, dry stuff on project management stuff or IT or whatever, like, oh, but that last thing was fun. We should definitely go back next year. So feedback on that kind of is a more immediate thing, but longer term, less about the entire organization. And this is where my focus is, where I'm most passionate about, is individuals. but longer term, less about the entire organization, and this is where my focus is, where I'm most passionate about, is individuals. Is individuals reach out and they talk about,

Juan, just thank you for giving me confidence in using humor, I've been starting to incorporate it. Because the other thing about using humor just kind of come back to that a little bit, is the last component of the humor. So we have the sense of humor, which is what have, right, we have the sense of humor, which is what you find funny. We have the ability to humor,

which is kind of content structure. And then we have, and delivery, and then we have agency with humor as a third component. And this is using humor to get a specific result. Can you use humor so that people pay attention to what you're talking about? Can you use humor to build rapport with someone? Can you use humor just to relieve stress for yourself?

And what I think is important for people to recognize is for using humor in the workplace, you don't have to be the creator of humor. You can be the curator of it, right? So you can find a bunch of funny memes and send those out. You can sign a TEDx talk that you think is funny and include that at the end of an email. You can use gifts as a response and a text message

where it's like, you didn't have to build a gift, you didn't have to create it, you just find, you type in, thank you. And then you look at a response and a text message where it's like, you didn't have to build a GIF, you didn't have to create it, you just find like, you type in thank you, and then you look at the ones and you're like, oh, you know, James Corbin bowing is kind of funny as a thank you, so I'll send that one. So you don't have to be the creator of it. And so I think that's really important

because sometimes people are a little bit nervous if you want to get started using humor, start first just by sharing things that you think are funny. And so that's one of the pieces of like feedback that I get is that it feels more accessible to people after the program. So like, oh, I can actually do this. But the feedback that I really enjoy and I get from time and time is people are like, when they say they didn't know that they could enjoy work this much.

Because we so many people go and if you've never experienced a job that you love, if you've never experienced a team that you get along with well, if you've never experienced, like I imagine you guys all, like at least from, if you don't like each other, you at least put on a very good face, right? Because it seems like you have a good time, but if you've never experienced this level of camaraderie,

you don't know it could exist as part of your daily work. And so when people start to realize that, when they start to feel it, they're like, thank you for like kind of unlocking this. Like, you know, I'll get feedback that like, I never knew that I could actually like work. And now I'm in a job that I actually really enjoy and part of it is, you know, I don't know.

How do you guys feel about the advice, do what you love? Oh, I think that's very important. I think when you do what you love, you're better at it, you work harder at it advice to do what you love? Oh, I think that's very important. I think when you do what you love, you're better at it, you work harder at it, or love what you do. Yeah, that's the key. Yeah, love what you do. Yeah, I've come from the camp,

but I've done a lot of different things, and I always found a way to love it. All the way down to scraping and shoveling shit and looking cows, like. Yeah, that's good point. Yeah, I think it's all about reframing that and finding ways to love what you do. And that, I think, is an important distinction that,

I think people should realize it because there's this idea that, oh, you have to do what you love, which I think is part of it. Find what you, and see if you can start to incorporate the things that you love doing and incorporate that into your work, for sure. But I think people have this belief then it's like, oh, okay, well, if I have to do what I love, then that means that if there's any component

of what I do that I don't like, this isn't it. You abandoned it. Right, right, right. It's the same idea of like, I mean, we've talked a little bit about it. We've talked a little bit about dating and one of the other things that I would like, the fun conversation that I would maybe bring up

is about soulmates. Do you guys believe in soulmates? No. Hmm, soulmates. No, I don't. I think it's, it's comes from the same place. It comes from the same place we just talk about loving, loving job or loving that person.

It's work. Yeah. Well, and I think that, and so you and I might be similar in some ways because like, and so I would joke and I would get their response and I would wanna know. But for me, I don't believe in soulmates, but I do believe in wordplay. So I do believe in a soulmate.

And the sense that for me and maybe not for other people, I'm looking for one person. Like I want to settle down with one person, have a life partner, that's just one person. Like plenty of other people might be like, no, I don't wanna settle down, I wanna date multiple people, whatever. That's, if that's into you, that's great.

But for me, I'm not looking for an SOUL mate. I'm looking for an SOLE mate. Like, I just want one person, but I don't believe it as one spiritual being that I'm looking for me. Because I think when people think of the fairy tale idea, the love at first sight, soulmate, what happens is we know that romantic love or lust really only lasts, I think they say even three years after marriage. And then after that, that starts to die down and it becomes more platonic love. And so if you believe in soulmates and you think that, oh, it's just this one person that I'm supposed to, like, this is a person I'm meant to be with because it feels so great. If that starts to die down and get replaced by platonic love,

and you believe so much, you're like, oh, I was wrong. This isn't my soulmate. I should be dating someone else. This new person who I kind of fancy at work, maybe I should end it with this person and go with that person instead. Whereas I think if you go into this mentality of like,

no, I think what's romantic about the idea of a single person is that we're saying that when two people get together, you're saying, hey, out of the seven billion other people on this planet, we choose each other. You're my top draft pick. You're my top draft pick. Let's make this work. Yeah. And so I think the same applies to work in the sense of like if you believe just that it's about

doing what you love, that if you start to do something and you're not great at it, or it's not perfect, or whatever, you're like, oh, maybe this isn't it. Maybe I should do something else, or maybe I'm just not good. Versus this mentality of love, what you do, then it's like, okay, whatever I'm gonna do right now, let me find ways to make it a little bit more fun. Let me find ways.

Maybe it's not the thing that I wanna do forever. Maybe I'm still gonna look for other jobs or build my skillsets so my capabilities so I can go somewhere else in the future, but I should at least enjoy what I do right now. You're reminding me of a story that my dad and my grandfather told me a long time ago, my family's, or their immigrants from Sicily,

and they were poor, they were poor immigrants. And my great grandfather, his job was like many people in Sicily at the time was to tend to these lemon orchards. And what they would do is they would go out during the day and pick the lemon orchards and, you know, work on the soil to plant trees and all that stuff and they would pair up, there would always be pairs. And people used to pull straws to work with my great-grandfather

because he told the best jokes. And so everybody wanted to work with them because they enjoyed working when they were working with him who would tell the joke. So just remind me of that. Yeah, no, which is incredible. And that's a perspective shift, right? That's right, no one told her grandma

that he had to tell jokes, right? But he chose to. And that's a big part, like that goes back to that idea of your responsible for your own happiness. And that's a big piece of kind of the message that I want to share is for people to recognize, like again, your responsible for your own happiness. And that's a big piece of kind of the message that I try to, that I wanna share is for people to recognize like again,

you're responsible for it. It doesn't mean you're in control of it, right? Cause I think that's the other thing is there's a misconception of happiness. I think a lot of people think that success precedes happiness. A lot of people have the mentality of like, oh, like once I achieve blank, that's when I'll be happy. Once I get that new job, I'll be happy. Things aren't great now, but once I get that, I'll be happy.

Or, you know, or I'm sure you imagine with like clients, like, oh, once I hit X, wait, I'll be happy. I just need to get to this and then I'm going to be complete that. Which we know that's not true. Yeah, we absolutely know it's true, because we're not true, because of the hedonic adaptation. And this is where like the engineering approach, I think, is fascinating. You guys know hedonic adaptation. Hed is where like the engineering approach, I think, is fascinating. You guys know hedonic adaptation, hedonic treadmill? Not hedonic, but yeah. So it's the idea of, first of all,

I don't think we should call it hedonic treadmill because there's a reason why Americans aren't happy maybe because they hate treadmills. Yeah, there are, like, how was it treadmill hedonic? Right, yeah. But so the hedonic adaptation or the reason why it's tread treadmill is that we're always, it's always a pursuit of happiness.

It's amazing that the founding fathers were really smart to say, you know, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not happiness. Not happiness, but the pursuit of it, which Eddie Isard has a great joke about because it's like, of course Americans are like that, it's like they're hunting happiness,

like running it down and trying to shoot it with the gun. But Hedonic adaptation is this idea that everyone has a base happiness set point. And when something bad happens to you, you'll be affected by it for a little bit, but then you will return back to that base. That's a good thing. That's called resilience, right? So if you are, if something terrible happens to you and get injured, that's going to affect

your happiness for a little bit, but then it's going to come back. Even if you lose a limb, you'll come back, you'll build back to, doesn't mean that you're going to affect your happiness for a little bit, but then it's going to come back. Even if you lose a limb, you'll come back, you'll build back to, doesn't mean that you're going to be sad forever. The same is true on the other side though, is when something positive happens, you achieve that goal, you get that raise, you buy that car, you're going to be happy for a period,

but then you're going to return back to that base and it becomes entitlement, right? I think of it in terms of, I travel a lot, and I still remember the first time I got upgraded to first class. Like I was like, this is amazing. I never sit there. I didn't know exactly what to do.

They came by and they offered like, what do you want to drink? And I was like, what are the options? And I don't even drink all that much, but I ordered alcohol just because I could. They came by for like dinner and they gave me a hot towel. Like I grew up in the middle of Ohio, lower middle class. I didn't know what to do with the hot, I cleaned they gave me a hot towel. Like I grew up in the middle of Ohio, lower middle class.

I didn't know what to do with the hot, I cleaned the desk with a hot towel. Like, what am I gonna do with it? Right? And the whole experience, I was like smiling the entire time. It was amazing. And now you've done it a hundred times. Now I've done it a bunch and I don't buy first class.

Like I don't buy it. I'm just like, I have status with Delta, so I'm like, I get upgraded quite a bit. I'm now upset when I don't get upgraded. It's like, I'm not buying it. I'm not like, I have status with Delta, so I'm like, I get upgraded quite a bit. I'm now upset when I don't get upgraded. It's like, I'm not buying it. I'm not like, I don't deserve it. I haven't earned it any other way, but I'm still kind of like, really,

really Delta not getting upgraded. I'm diamond. I should be upgraded. This guy's more diamond than me. What is that, right? And so it's this hedonic adaptation. I've settled into it, just become almost a sense of entitlement.

And so, studies have found that it's not that happy is success precedes happiness, but happiness precedes success. When we can find ways to love what we do, when we can find ways to enjoy it, there's a great book by Sean Acor who also had a great TED Talk, TEDx Talk on the Happiness Advantage, talked about like research that's been done like when happier employees are 37% more productive in the workplace. They get better sales results and all these other things because if they enjoy what they're gonna do, they're more likely to do it.

Absolutely. I just love that message, man. Yeah, what, Andrew, thanks for coming on, man. Absolutely, no, this has been fantastic. I feel like I could keep going, but I appreciate you guys having me. We've gone through a wide range of Topics, but hopefully it's all been no, it's been a blast. Did you you were a great time man?

Really good time and we could have probably just come if we didn't have something coming on afterwards I would probably say here we you for another hour easily. Yeah, for sure. Thanks again. Yeah, absolutely Thank you for listening to Mind Pump If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbumble at Mind Pump Media.com. The RGB Superbumble includes maps and a ballad, maps performance, and maps aesthetic.

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