Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1155: Ryan Holiday

Episode Date: November 4, 2019

In this episode, Sal, Adam and Justin speak with best selling author, Ryan Holiday. How Ryan was talking about ‘fake news’ before it was cool. (2:30) The concept of ‘yellow journalism’. (7:45) Why the more polarizing information we get, the more likely we are to react to it. (9:28) How you get what you pay for and the importance of long-form conversations. (12:15) What is the most alarming trend he sees? (15:42) The significance of digital wellness: How to use technology and NOT be controlled by it. (18:55) Is stoicism having a comeback? (21:45) How does he define stoicism? (25:42) Why sometimes the best thing you can do is go back into the work. (26:37) Can these teachings be just as effective if you don’t believe in the metaphysical? (31:35) Does he have a code he lives by? (34:05) Why certain things matter more TODAY than ever. (36:06) The historical stories no one knows about. (42:15) How was he introduced to stoicism and did it contribute to dropping out of college? (45:33) How no man steps in the same river twice. (49:35) What have his children taught him? (51:49) If you don’t have any critics you aren’t doing anything interesting. (59:13) What books have been impactful on his life? (1:02:45) Is he motivated by money? (1:04:12) The formula for his writing process. (1:06:23) Does he know when he has a hit on his hands? (1:11:00) Why he thinks in the long term and doesn’t play the comparison game. (1:12:15) The value of autonomy and being in control of your own destiny. (1:15:48)  Why he lives his life NOT out of a place of want. (1:17:50) Featured Guest/People Mentioned Ryan Holiday (@ryanholiday)  Instagram Website Jordan Peterson (@jordan.b.peterson)  Instagram Mark Manson (@markmanson)  Instagram Joe Rogan (@joerogan)  Instagram Dr. Drew Pinsky (@drdrewpinsky)  Instagram Brian Koppelman (@briankoppelman)  Twitter Casey Neistat (@caseyneistat)  Instagram Aubrey Marcus (@aubreymarcus)  Instagram Related Links/Products Mentioned LAUNCH SPECIAL! (Ends 11:59pm Nov. 3rd) MAPS Powerlift available NOW!! **Code “POWER40” at checkout** Ryan Holiday books Liar's Poker: Rising through the Wreckage on Wall Street - Book by Michael Lewis Haro – Help a Reporter Out UNFRIENDLY SKIES? Digital Minimalism: Choosing a Focused Life in a Noisy World - Book by Cal Newport 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos - Book by Jordan Peterson Mind Pump 1050: Mark Manson- The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck Dr. Drew - Ryan Holiday [Episode 393] HumanProgress.org The Daily Dad - Every Dad Needs a Little Help Joe Rogan Experience #1208 - Jordan Peterson Douglas MacArthur: American Warrior – Book by Arthur Herman The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life - Book by David Brooks Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World - Book by David Epstein The Key To Universal Peak Performance with Ryan Holiday | #225 Aubrey Marcus Podcast

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Saldas Defano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. So in this episode of Mind Pump, we got to interview one of the best-selling authors that we've ever met. Ryan Holiday, he's the best-selling author of Trust Me I'm Lying. The obstacle is the way ego is the enemy conspiracy and other books about marketing, culture and the human condition. His work has been translated into over 30 languages and he's appeared everywhere from the New York Times to fast company. His current company, Brass Check, has

advised companies such as Google, Taser and Complex, as well as multi-platinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world. His current book for sale is Stillness is the key. Now this is an author that Adam has been talking about for a very, very long time. This was a great interview, we had a lot of fun talking this guy and his stoic principles and philosophies. Now you can find Ryan Holiday on Instagram,

if you wanna check him out, at Ryan Holiday, spell just like it sounds, and his website is RyanHoliday.net. Now before that episode begins, I wanna let everybody know that you're entering into the final hours of our Maps Power Lift. This is a Powerlifting Workout program launch. So anytime we launch a new program,

there's a discount code for a sale on it. So right now Maps Power Lift is $40 off with the code Power 40, P-O-W-E-R, 4-0, no space. Just go to the site, mapspowerlift.com. You'll also get a free maps power lift t-shirt if you enroll during the launch period. So without any further ado, here we are interviewing Ryan Holiday.

All right, on, dude, excited to have you on here. Yeah, thanks. We, I've read, let's see here, obstacle is the way, egos, the enemy, I'm halfway through stillness. I absolutely love those. I didn't know about your earlier work. I found you later on. Yeah.

And when we were trying to get you on the show a while back when we were out in Austin, the stuff that actually, which is funny, because I had all these things that I wanted to talk to you about with stoicism and everything. But when I actually started digging deeper into you, I actually became really fascinated with the marketing side. Yeah.

And so for our audience, I'd love for you to kind of share your early history and how you got into the marketing and sales side and then we'll go from there. Sure. Yeah, I don't know where to start. I mean, it seems weird to say it now, but so in 2012, I wrote a book about how fake news is made.

And everyone basically said I was crazy and a liar and totally wrong. The book weirdly, like it was like everyone in the media saw the book and was like, he's a bad person. This book is not true. And then sort of actual people in marketing, and people in politics, people had messages they wanted to get out. They have very different reactions, and they sort of become...

Were you like the guy giving away the magicians? Sort of. Sort of. Well, no, no. It was more like people like, oh, that's how it works. And like some good people, I've heard from people, hey, I use this to raise a bunch of money for this charity or, you know, hey, like this is how I broke through as a musician. And that's really cool.

And then it's also like, oh, hey, I'm the guy that gave Donald Trump the idea for the wall and trust me, I'm lying to my favorite book. And you're like, you know, so it's a little, it's, it's, it's, it's sort of a strange book. So like many years ago, Michael Lewis wrote this book called Liars Poker, which is like sort of about the excesses of Wall Street.

And I remember reading an interview about it and he said, people come up to me and they go, you're the reason I work on Wall Street. And he's like, that's literally the exact opposite intention I had with the book. That's sort of the relationship I have with that book. I mean, I feel like it stands a test of time relationship I have with that book. I mean, I totally, I feel like it stands the test of time, I feel like it's right. I also feel like it's a little bit of a

piece of time in my life, but I think a lot of people miss that it was primarily a cautionary tale, not a how-to book. Right. What motivated you to write a cautionary tale about how fake news is made and how media's manipulator are used? Yeah, so I'd been a marketer for a long time and I'd worked with a lot of really controversial clients. And so I sort of saw how easy it was to just create controversy and attention out of nowhere. And I mean little things.

I remember one, so even with the book, I was like, okay, let me, people aren't going to believe me. So I just proved that I know what I'm talking about. So like, for instance, I just announced that I got a half a million dollar book deal, which wasn't true. And the next thing, no, everyone's talking about it, right? How did this kid from nowhere get a half a million dollar book deal? No one bothered to go like, was it true or not?

And then, and then, and then I leaked that it was a celebrity tell all about clients that I had, which also wasn't true. And then everyone's like, what sort of scoops are gonna be in the book? So it was like this, had this big pre-publication buzz. And then I did this thing, you guys know what help a reporter out is? It's like a, basically it's like Craigslist

for lazy journalists. Like if you're like, hey, I'm writing about, I'm writing a trend story about X. I need an expert who will pretend to, like, who, I need an expert who will tell me exactly what I want to put in my story. So if I'm like, you know, most trend pieces are to a bullshit.

And so it's just the reporter trying to be like, oh, this person says it's a trend and this person says it's a trend. They're for it's a trend. So there's a service reporter trying to be like, oh, this person says it's a trend and this person says it's a trend. They're for it's a trend. So there's a service that does this, right? You pay a membership fee. I have no idea.

You pay a fee to be an expert and then reporters go like, hey, I'm looking for someone to say that kids are having sex with yo-yos and then you go, oh, I'll give you, you know, all, all, all, all, all, all, all, exactly. Well, that's why you'd ask me to be an expert in your story and then'll give you all, all, all work. Exactly. Well, that's why you'd ask me to be an expert in your story, and then I tell you all about it. But so the point is I signed up for the service,

and I just pretended to be an expert about a bunch of things that had no idea what I was talking about. I was quoting The New York Times as an expert on vinyl records. Like, I learned from The New York Times piece that I was quoted in what LPs stood for. Like I'd never listened to a record in my life from 25 on this happened, right?

So, you know, I was quoted on the Today Show and Date Line and all these different outlets about, you know, like, preposterous nonsense. Like, how to winterize your boat and, you know, like, how millennials are afraid of investing in the stock market. Just like ridiculous stuff. Basically every major media outlet you could think of.

And then I was like, look, guys, this is how the sausage gets made. And people were like, you're a liar. Why did you do this? And I was like, guys, I'm not the problem here. The problem is that you, it would take two seconds for the New York Times to ban their reporter from using this service.

They don't want to do it because they have to churn out so much content. So the, anyways, the book was supposed to show just how flimsy most of the information that we get from the media isn't how, how the sort of page of mentality that we have and the sort of free news mentality that we have is responsible for a lot of just false information.

And the point was like, look, if I can do this for fun as an experiment, you know, what can Russia do? That's sort of the argument. Oh yeah, now is this a symptom of the kind of unlimited bandwidth that new technology's created in the sense that now there aren't just a few national newspapers. There's an infinite number that I can post. So I really don't care if I put bad stuff out. It's less that. It's more like an example. I have a job posting in the book,

and this is from like 2015. So I've updated the book a couple of times. But like in 2015, the Washington Post put out a help wanted ad for a blogger to post 12 times a day. Like you just imagine the pressure of someone who's the right 12 articles a day. Like after nine, you're just like, I don't care.

I don't even have time to think about this, right? So part of it's the pressure. The big part of it is like, if you think about what yellow journalism was, right? Going back to the beginning of the 1900s, as city like New York had 20 or 30 daily newspapers. And so you remember that idea of like a newsboy,

like extra extra, right? What was driving the crazy Like accesses of journalism in that time was that the newspapers had to fight for attention on a street track Well now we have that it's effort. It's called Google News And it's called Facebook and it's called Twitter. So it's it's the systemic sort of structure of the media creates an environment where nobody has time to really do a lot of real reporting.

And nobody, like, people go, like, why does the media give Donald Trump $2 billion worth of free publicity in 2016? It's like, because they made money off the free publicity that they gave them. So, are you seeing in politics, are you seeing each side uses to their advantage in the sense of, for example, I remember somebody shared some article with, and it was a, it was a bash liberal, you know, article about like, look at these crazy liberals and what they're, what they're talking about, and you're reading this tweet, supposedly written by a liberal and you're like, oh my God, that's insane.

I can't believe that. And then I'm like, wait a minute. I wonder if the conservatives are finding some crazy tweet that nobody really believes in, but they're sharing it to show crazy they are. They definitely are. And look, this is when people talk about the Russian election interference,

they think it was like hacking into these polling stations, and that was like kind of part of it, but mostly it was that like, I think something like 1800 fake Russian accounts, like Twitter accounts were quoted in media stories in the election. 1800? Yeah, so when you think about like when I do this

help reporter out thing and I'm pretending I'm an expert on vinyl records, people go, oh, that's not that bad. Well, the problem is they shouldn't be using random fucking people on the internet as sources for stories. Because when you do that, it creates vulnerabilities. So then Russia can like take a fake, Russia can have a person that

like take a fake, rush again, have a person that that like pretends to be an extreme liberal or pretends to be an extreme conservative, and then it just widens the divide between people. So like, I don't really think, like look, I think there's a lot of alarming political things happening right now,

but I don't think that magically in the course of just a couple years everyone suddenly became racist But I don't think that magically in the course of just a couple years Everyone suddenly became racist and suddenly got all these super extreme views on either side I think it's clear that the The more polarizing the information we get the more likely we are to share and react to it on social media And I think that's driving what feels or is perceived as increased polarization. But like, I don't know about you,

but like, I don't get any political conflict in my actual real life. You know what I mean? I have a lot of reasonable conversations with people that I have very different beliefs with. But very rarely do I hear anyone say anything dumb or overtly racist or, you know, police with, but very rarely do I hear anyone say anything dumb or a vertically racist or, you know, I don't see anyone enforcing this extreme

political correctness in real life either. It's just exists almost in Ireland. It's such a small, small, small percentage of people. I mean, I was a kid. There was a magazine called The Inquirer and there was these other magazines that were at the newsstands when you go through in the line at the grocery store and you'd read about like, Wolf, you know, mother gives birth to four wolf kids or whatever.

And after a while, you're like, okay, the whole thing is bullshit. Do you think we're heading down that path where everyone's gonna be like, at first it's kind of getting us all hopped up and now at some point we're gonna like, it's all bullshit. Well, I think one of the good things

is that people are starting to like since the election, the subscription rates for the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, very different papers from different ideological viewpoints have gone way, way up. People have realized like, oh, the news I get for free is like kind of worth what I pay for, right?

You know, and actually one of the, so I think kind of worth what I pay for. And actually one of the, so I think one realizing you got to pay for quality, but two, I also think podcasts, like the podcasts, the economics of podcasts and so much better than a lot of the, you know, then the sort of the blogging world. So like look, people subscribe to this show,

you know, you guys have literally hours. You know, it's long form. It's long form. Podcast episodes don't go viral, right? Like it's, hey, I'm gonna sit down and listen to these guys talk for 90 minutes. Like that's not simple. Think about 140 characters versus a 90 minute

thoughtful, meandering discussion with real people like it just fundamentally better Bullshit tends to get aired out in long form. You don't get those like short, you know Yeah, or even talk radio. It's like they're just trying to rile you up and then get you to stick around through a commercial break Like you guys aren't doing that and and so I think pod are, I think we are starting to see some technological, some economical, but then also some cultural shifts that are maybe making things better. I mean, the big thing I talk about this in the new book, like, people need to stop fucking watching cable news. Like it is the worst thing for society, for your health,

like for agreeing informed, like, and like watching the news is maybe one thing, like if they were like, hey, this plane crashed and we are gonna give you this information. The problem is like 90% of the news is a bunch of morons sitting around a table telling you their opinion about the plane crash, right? Like sports news is like shows, shows it's really bad.

It's like I was watching a panel this morning as I was eating breakfast as it was on and the place I was eating and they were just like, like Antonio Brown did X and then it's like, what's our opinion about Antonio Brown doing? That's not news, right? That's like, that's just people don't know what they're talking about telling you what they think is going to happen.

Meanwhile, they're never accountable whether they're right or wrong. So just like people need to, if you want to be happier, you want to be more informed, you want to be able to think big picture and have good ideas. Like, that's sort of what I call stillness. Like, you need to be able to think big picture and have good ideas like, that's sort of what I call stillness, like you need to stop watching the news. I watch zero news and actually, like when I'm in the airport, you know, CNN pays for their channel to be played in airports. Like any airport you're in there playing CNN, they're not just like,

because oh, this is the most trusted name in news. This is a transaction. Really? Wow, didn't know that. Yeah. And so, so like, when I know that. Yeah, and so like, when I walk through the airport, I'm like, I'm not gonna fall for this.

You know, I'm not gonna watch this, but you actually have to, it's harder to sit there and read a book than it is just go like, oh, a Donald Trump set, you know? And so you gotta get away with it. What do you think is most alarming about what we're seeing right now? I mean, I think the most alarming trend generally is like, we all live in very different realities from each other.

So instead, like, so some people think X and some people think Y about a pretty objective set of events. You know what I mean? So like, are we getting further apart? I think so because we just consume such a variety of things. Which is ironic in a time where we are most connected. Yeah, sure. We're literally connected, but we live on different planets. Yeah, you know something's crazy when you go

on these network news channels and there's some kind of an event and you'll watch CNN or in Fox and it's reported completely differently. I actually do this. This is something that I try. I learned this practice. Sometimes I learned this practice years ago from a client who I had this client who was, she was exceptional at arguing her position.

And she always told me the way that she does that is she learns the other side as well as her side. So what I started doing is I'd go watch Fox and I'd flip between Fox and MSNBC on the same thing. And I could see like, wow, this is the same event, but completely different perspective. It's a different area. Yeah, completely.

And it's just siloing us into different silos. Yeah, and look, this is just reality television, but way more boring than, you know, good reality television. So it's just really, I mean, think about, like what Donald Trump is, and again, I don't think this is a political statement. Donald Trump is the greatest reality television character and producer in history, right? And he managed to turn our political system into one endlessly fascinating, riveting reality show of which he is the star and prime beneficiary.

And people can't seem to understand that if you just turn it off, it loses most of its power. Yeah. You have the power. He's, I'm not, do you think he's beatable? Do you think he's beatable in the next re-election? He's got to be the best. He's so, he's like, he's so far ahead in that in that area well look he's a horrible

politician he is a great uh... he's a great acquireer of attention politician has to accomplish things oh i'm interested by politics is a is a is an art it's a profession to craft like how do you uh... broker compromises how do you broker compromises? How do you pass legislation? Donald Trump has passed like precisely zero pieces of legislation Well, I guess he did the tax cut which I don't have a huge problem with but like

As far as politics goes actually the strategies of business movies probably left a lot of easy gains on the table But what he is really good at is making the news cycle all about him But what he is really good at is making the news cycle all about him Yeah, I think he's probably beatable if if these people can can it's like the what I the analogy I make with Donald Trump is that Donald Trump is running like a no-huddle offense Which every once in a while someone will bring to the NFL and it will kind of catch teams off guard and and then they figure it out, and then it stops working. But it's like, we just see, liberals seem to not be able to figure out what he's doing,

and they just fall for it every time. Yeah. Along the lines of media attention, and talking about your book, Stillness is the key. It was really interesting that you, that was the most recent book that you read. One of the things, one of the messages that we give on our show all the time is the importance

of digital wellness. Yeah. We think that's gonna be one of the biggest things talked about in the next decade. Can you kind of speak on that a little bit what you, how important you think that is for us to maybe detox from all this? Have you guys had count Newport on?

Not yet, but I know I'm not listening. Yeah, so the idea of digital minimal and just being intentional, like the way I think about it is like, I wanna use technology, I don't want to be used by technology. And I don't think people realize, for instance, when we're talking about the news, like the news is free because it's selling you.

They are creating a show over here, and then when your eyes are on it, they then go, hey, look, we got these people and they're watching this. Right. They sell. They sell. The joke is, if you're not paying for it, you're the product that's being sold.

And so you've got it. You want to be using the technology, not the technology using the use. So deciding to be intentional about these things, so I don't have any social media on my phone on purpose. It's not that I don't use social media, it's that I don't carry it around on my pocket and have it at arms reach all the time. My rule is I don't touch my phone or use my phone for the first 30 minutes

to one hour of the day. So I don't sleep with an in my room, I don't try to tease that as an alarm. So that means like I'm starting the day with like a nine hour no phone streak. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. And it's really important that like, so what happens is people wake up and then the first thing

they do is touch their phone. And then they start the day from a reactionary place. They start the day on their back foot. It's like, and this morning was a great example. I had to use my phone as an alarm call from staying in a hotel. And so, I go to turn off the alarm and then the first, when you click the phone,

it's like all these things. Thankfully, I don't have any notifications on my phone except for text messages. Like, I don't have any notifications on my phone except for text messages. I'm like, I don't get emails that way. I don't let CNN tell me anything. I don't let Instagram tell me anything. But the point is like, it was just business and friendship related stuff. So instead of waking up and going, how do I want this data to go? What do I need to do today? What place do I want to come at from this day? It's like, oh, so-and-so gave me bad news or like, oh, this got canceled or like instead of so as a writer, it's really important that I enter my work from the right headspace and that I'm

so sure driving things so that idea of just not starting the day with the phone is really important for me. So that idea of just not starting the day with the phone is really important for me. Do you think that because of the ease of distractability today, the social media, we're talking about tech and the way media is, do you think that's why we may be seeing a resurgence of these ancient philosophies that you write so much about?

Stoicism seems to be having a resurgence in popularity. and maybe that's because I'm more aware of it or is that even true? Yeah, I mean it's funny when I went out with the first book that I wrote about Stoicism this would have been in 2012. No one was like, oh this is so timely. This is going to be a huge trend. In fact, they were like, what is this? How is it going to help people? They were very skeptical. So it's kind of interesting to see how things have panned out. What I've really found is that as much as things have changed, like human beings are still

human beings. And so when you read about the stokes, they're talking about how, like I open the the first pages of stillness is the key with the story of of Santa Cahose in Rome, he's trying to sit at his desk and write something. And the noise from the street and from the, you know, the floor below him in the room next door was like literally indistinguishable from the what I was hearing from fourth avenue in San Francisco this morning, right? It might be sirens as opposed to shouting or you know, it might be like slightly like the specifics might have changed a little bit, but the fundamental reality, it's really hard to concentrate

when it's noisy outside remains the same. And the truth is, there's not really anything new you can discover about doing it. There's just kind of some bedrock principles and practices that you want to follow that help you focus, that help you clarify what you want to do, that help you be your you want to do, that help you be your

sure you're best self. Why do you think it's become more popular more recently? I mean I think it's a couple things. One of the things I've really tried to do in the books is be understanding of the fact that like, okay I'm a nerd. I love history. I love philosophy. So I wake up and go, well, let's study this or let's study that. Most people don't do that. Most people wake up and then go, I'm depressed or I don't like my job or I'm scared about X, Y, or Z.

Most people wake up and say, I have a problem and they are not primed to think, hey, ancient philosophy from Greece and Rome or from China or Japan could be the perfect solution to that problem. As far as they know, philosophy is like some Turtle neck university professor lecturing them, using a bunch of words that they can't pronounce.

And so I've really tried to combat that and try to present philosophy actually as a practical set of exercises or ways of thinking. I'm trying to actually make the case that no philosophy is actually exactly what you need and it's designed as a solution to your problem. So I think that's a big, I think that's that, like meeting people where they are has helped.

The other thing is I do think people are realizing that they're like, okay, I don't go to church, I don't believe what the media tells me. I don't have, I'm not gonna work at this company for the next 30 years. I don't trust politicians, I hate my parents or whatever, all the old things that kind of gave you a sense for how to live, have fallen away.

And then people are like, oh, well, what should I do or not do? You know, what are good rules for living? I think Jordan Peterson's book worked really well because he was like, look, here are some rules for living. And people are like, thank you. I need some rules for living. Yeah. How do you define stoicism?

So look, you could tell people, hey, this is what year it was founded in ancient Greece. And these are the names. And the way I describe it is that stoicism is a philosophy that believes we don't control what happens in life, we control how we respond, right? And the sort of core things that the stoic wants you to respond to life with, or the sort of traits to live by, are courage, justice, temperance, that's moderation, and wisdom.

And so it's hardly controversial, right? It's not like asking you to do anything you don't already agree with. It's just giving you a sense, a code for living. I think these are the kind of bed rocks, of bed rock values of a good life. There's two of them that you mentioned there. Courage and temperance that I could see being extremely challenging these days. Courage because in order to be courageous,

you have to embark on something you're terrified of something that's very challenging. And we've just made life super easy, and we continue to see how to do that. Yeah, yes. And then temperance, moderation. And we see this a lot in our space, in the fitness and health space,

these pleasure seekers who are like, if it feels good, it is good. Keep pushing. What is your opinion on some of that? Yeah, look, we used to have this idea of sin, right? Don't do this, so you're going to go to hell, right? And that obviously was sort of repressive and, you know, if you're not religious, like it's- Yeah, because you're going to believe in hell, well then follow. So the Christian argument is like, don't's like, because you don't believe in hell will then fall.

So the Christian argument is like, don't do these bad things, or don't do things in excess, or you will die and go to hell. The stoic argument is like, a person who has no self-control lives in hell, right? That these things that you think are pleasures are actually,

like the worst thing I could do is give you everything that you want. So for the stokes, it's all about balance. It's not that you can't take a drink or you can't have sex or you can't strive to be great at what you do. It's just you can't lie to yourself and tell yourself that that's an

unlimited amount is okay and that it's going to mean anything in the long run to you. So you just see these people who there's just nothing is ever enough for them. There's not any amount of money that's enough, not any amount of accomplishment. There's enough, any amount of partying or sex or adulation or fame is enough. And this is actually just a miserable, awful way to live. Oh yeah, as evidenced by the rate of depression and suicide you see among celebrities. Sure. People who have almost all of those things all the time or whenever they want. Well, what happens is we think, oh, if I get what I want, then I will be happy. And then what we forget is that the mind insidiously just moves the goalpost a little bit further each time.

I mean, I thought, oh, all I want to do is be a writer. And it's like, okay, what is a writer? A writer has a book. So then I did a book. And it's like, oh, this got to be a bestseller. It's like, actually, now I'm going to a second book and I wanna get paid more for it. And then, you know, you just go on and on, and it's like, it never occurs to us. Like, hey, last time I told myself,

if I get this thing, then I'll feel good. And then I didn't feel that good. But we go, oh, it was just not enough. I, you know, it was like, I thought I needed a million dollars, turns out actually it's 10. That's what addiction sounds like. Of course. We were talking about how we interviewed Mark Manson,

and he wrote his book, and it crushed, and he was depressed afterwards because of exactly what you're talking about. No, I, Mark's a good friend. I remember seeing him. This is maybe 18 months after it had really popped. We were hanging out, and he was like, I don't want to say he was like a shell of himself,

but you could tell he was kind of shell-shocked by all of it. Like, because it was so out of, I don't think it was like, I don't think Mark was someone who was like, oh, if I'm really a famous successful author, I'll be happy. I think he's way too smart and wise to think that. I think it's he's way too smart and and wise to think that I think it was more like

It was such a An overwhelming amount of success that he was dealing with What happens like we're talking about when things are out of balance like it was like it just it took him a while to figure out How to balance his life out and you know I remember he was saying, he decided he was going to start eating better and working out and taking better care of himself and developing more of a schedule. I think ironically throwing himself into the next book was probably the best thing he ended up doing. And that's something I've worked on in my career.

Like when the obstacle is the way it came out, it did well. Like it didn't blow the doors off, it did well. But I already sold what was going to become egos the enemy. So it was sort of like the fact that it didn't pop. I didn't care. I had a deadline to meet. I had work to do. And then when it really blew up, when it really started selling, it also didn't matter because I still had to deliver this book. So sometimes the best thing is just to go back into the work. I think that's why you hear of a Nick Sabin or a Davos Weenie who went in a national

championship and then they're on a recruiting trip the next day. Something that can't enjoy it is that they know that it's better not to sit there and pat yourself on the back too much I think they understand that it's the journey more than the destination course and get right back on the journey again Yeah, you're you're you're you're reminding me of you know as you're talking about some of these philosophies and in this non-identification or Not worshipping these things it reminds reminds me of the be attitudes and Christianity or the Eastern religions and how they talk about detachment. Sure. I feel like these lessons are echoed in all over the world,

which kind of shows that they're probably true, but all of these teachings that have been around for a long time, there's always a metaphysical aspect that's connected, whether it's God or something outside of otherworldly, can these teachings or understand, can they be just as effective if you don't believe in the metaphysical, if you're, let's say you're an atheist?

Yeah, yeah. So the Stoics were not, the Stoics come at this interesting point in history sort of as the idea of the gods are kind of falling away, but like God, the monotheistic God that we have in the West now has not really taken hold the same way. Jesus and Seneca were born in the same year. So it's kind of like these things are all swirling

about at the same time, which is why I think there's a lot of similarities. But I think stoicism and Christianity are making very similar arguments, but I feel like stoicism is arguing it more from a logical standpoint. Like, hey, you're here right now. Do you, like, let's look at what works

and what doesn't work and what is sustainable and isn't sustainable. And then, yeah, in Christianity, there is more of, like, this is what God thinks you should do. I'm not super picky and choosy about, like, how you get there. I think it's just important that you get to a place where you're balanced and centered, where you have a strong moral compass, where you make good decisions, where you don't take life for granted. You treat other people well. I think there's lots of ways to get there. I think

philosophy is probably the most robust and practical way to get there. But like, look, if you want to go to church every weekend, and that's what does it for you, like, you know, great, or if you want to go to meditation retreats every weekend and that's how you get there. Cool, good for you. The point is that you're doing the work. This stuff doesn't just happen. You don't just get to sort of enlightenment and inner peace and sort of wisdom by playing video games. Right, so good, Justin. Oh, yeah. Did you have a specific code that you grew up with that maybe later on you found stoicism

that really resonated with you, but what did that look like growing up in terms of you trying to figure all this out? Yeah, in a way, I almost wish that I'd had more sort of explicit stuff. Like, I don't think we talk about these things enough. I don't know if I could have, I don't know, I knew the 10 Commandments existed, I don't know what they were, right?

We kind of have this weird thing now, I think particularly, educationally, where it's like we don't want to teach people too clearly right and wrong because it feels like loaded. Totally. Like I was thinking about, you know, the story of, you know, George Washington chopping down the cherry tree. Yeah. I didn't learn that story. I learned how that story is not true.

You know what I mean? It's like they wanted to be like, hey, you know, that story that we used to teach kids about why lying is a good idea and why it's good to be honest. You're like, yeah, like that's bullshit. Right? Just, I need you to know that's bullshit.

You know what? Okay, thanks. Yeah, it's important that you know that George Washington was a liar and a hypocrite and the own slaves and then all the founding fathers sucked. And, you know what? Like, so it almost like we've knocked down everything

and then what's left is this kind of nihilism. Like, people don't know what to do and what not to do. That's what I've always not gotten about the outrage about Jordan Peterson, people like, oh, well, it's like, there are a lot worse people that like dudes could be listening to than Jordan Peterson. We're Joe Rogan, it's like, would you rather, would you rather these people be at, you know, alt-right rallies?

Like, Joe Rogan is telling them to like, read, you know, these crazy complex books and he's getting them to check out these college professors and he's telling them to take care of themselves. Like, what are you upset about? Right. Yeah. That's so, that's so absolutely true. And one thing that worries me a little bit, and you kind of touched upon this, is the air of moral relativism that seems to be growing

a little bit now where it's like we shy away from teaching, okay, no, this is objectively right, and this is objectively wrong. Rather, it's all from your perspective, and it's all okay. I mean, how do you feel about that? Yeah, like, I don't think they used to think the George Washington choppin' on the cherry tree wrong rather it's all from your perspective and it's all okay. I mean, how do you feel about that? Yeah, like I don't think, I don't think they used to think the

George Washington choppin' on the Cherry Tree story was true. I think they were telling it because they wanted to teach a lesson a moral parable about, you know, teaching through stories how people learn. And sometimes you round the facts off to make the point of the story clear. And I kind of do that with my books too, everyone's all people be like, oh, you know, what about this?

Or, you know, they'll be like, oh, you know, John D. Rockefeller also polluted the environment. Or what, and it's like, that doesn't change the fact that he was very disciplined in this other aspect of his life and that we can learn from him. So we have this weird, I actually saw this as Trust Me Am Lang. People wanted to this weird, I actually saw this with Trust Me Em Long, people wanted to go like,

oh, what about X? This should invalidate his whole book. It like, we have this weird thing where we need like totally pure. They don't exist. Yeah, no, it doesn't exist at all. And so when it's like, we, it's almost like the real cancel culture

is like how we're almost actively working to just undermine everything that might be a value to people. And then nobody's proposing anything like, like look, for instance, and look, this is obviously easier for me to say because I'm not an oppressed minority. But like, yes, sure, there's way too many dead white guys in our history books.

And we obscure all sorts of other voices. I get this, I do an email each month where I recommend books and people will go like, where are the women on this list? And I always reply, what's a book you recommend? Don't just say that it's biased this way or that way. Like give me a book recommendation. I have no, like I would love. We get that with podcasts.

You know that. You should have more female, I'm saying send me one. Yeah, of course. Send me one, we'd love to have one here. Yeah, and look, I also get, it's my job to go be balanced and to explore, I'm not saying that you should do my work for me, but the point is, don't just tear things down. Also, I wrote my first book when I was living in New Orleans. It's like, I don't think there should be a Robert E. Lee statue

in the middle of town. Like, he's a fucking trader. I don't care a Robert E. Lee statue in the middle of town. Like he's a fucking traitor. Like, I don't care about Robert E. Lee, but I think it's sad that they took the statue down and nobody can come up with any idea for what stat, like who's a better person that should go there. Did you know what I mean?

Like, I'd rather see Lil Wayne up there. Like, at least that's a person, you know, from New Orleans, who like could maybe inspire some people. It seems like certain things matter more today than ever. When I was taught they weren't supposed to. Sex, you know, so your gender, all of a sudden matters like crazy. You know, I had somebody create this list and send it to me to complain and say,

the top podcast are all hosted by men. There's not enough female podcast. Why does that matter? All of a sudden so much more. Whereas the way I grew up was, it shouldn't matter what your gender is. If you do a good job, you do a good job, or race, all of a sudden it matters.

Like, what's going on? Do you think that's a symptom of what you were talking about with the media that they're just catching at people's attention? Yeah, I mean, it's complicated. Because on the one hand, you know, people are like, it shouldn't matter and we shouldn't be thinking about these things, but people used to say that

and then they kind of were also excluding people. Sure. It's like, okay, maybe there's some excesses in the Me Too movement, but there were also some deficiencies in culture before that was allowing some of this shit to happen, right? Where were you, like people like, oh, this is excessive and it's a miscarriage of justice.

It was also a miscarriage of justice that nobody did anything about Harvey Weinstein for three decades or whatever, right? So I think it's a complicated situation and it can be easy to be like, glib about it, but it is strange that all of a sudden, like people's race and people's gender and people's background, is now back to being the main thing about them. That's what I meant, yeah.

And I think that's heading in the wrong direction. It's not a problem. It's not a problem. I think it's heading in the wrong direction. It's not a problem. It's weird. I think it's more normal than we realize. I think what it is is that, and this has happened forever, where we're extreme on one side. There's an auto correct, the other,

and it swings the other direction. Now the difference today is the swings are harder and faster. Sure. So that's what I really think it is. I think, and I think that we can be a little alarmist sometimes like, oh my God, fuck, we keep heading this direction. Then we're all gonna die. Or everyone's gonna kill each other.

Civil war is coming in five years. It's like, I think we should give ourselves more of the benefit of the doubt that we're smarter humans than that. And a lot of this is just its natural. There was a time for us to be speaking about those things. And there was definitely a time when a lot of this is just its natural, there was a time for us to be speaking about those things. And there was definitely a time when a lot of people were being suppressed.

And I think that we definitely should have auto-cracketed. I just think it's a harder swing and faster now because of media and shit like that. That's what I really think it is. Well, and one of the things that's, I think really core to stoicism is they're just like, look, you gotta zoom out. You can't

You can't sweat the either swing because humanity has been swinging like this for that So I think when you read like something like Marcus really is he's just like he's like what were people doing three emperors or go They were doing the same shit. They're doing now. What are they gonna be doing? You know? Three emperors from now. They're gonna be doing the same shit. And I think one of the, what I'm saying, like don't read the, don't watch the news or don't consume news, I'm saying replace that with the study of history, with studying bigger picture things

because it helps you relax a little bit. So I do think things are bad and we're talking about where there's problems, but I also don't wake up every morning stressed out. I go like, look, things have been way worse than this. Right, right. To your point about history and stuff. So I actually really enjoyed the podcast

that you did with Dr. Drew. Yeah. And you're quite the historian, thanks. And is there a historical story that you think more people should know? I mean, yeah, I feel like every story in my book, like in my books, I'm like, I think you should know this. Like, here's a weird one. Like, I talk about Anne Frank in the new book quite a bit. I was reading this study. There's more and more kids don't even know who that is, right? Like there's people who don't even really under,

the Holocaust was so long ago now, it almost doesn't feel real to people. And so a lot of these conspiracy theories that are popping up are partly a result of the fact that like it's just inexplicable, like nearly fantastic that humans could have done such a horrible thing. But, but if you really study history, you're like, even the Holocaust. It's like, not the worst thing humans have done to reach.

Like, we are awful. And, and we allow horrible things to happen on a pretty regular basis. And, and so you, history gives you, I think what history gives you a sense of is like what to be worried about and what to be really worried about. And so I think a lot of the things that people get outraged about today, nada like this much, and then what they're ignoring is the things that are really actually terrifying. Like, you know, I was telling the story of the Cuban Missile Crisis in the book, just how close we came to nuclear annihilation and how much rested on the single. So it's like, people are like, oh, Donald Trump is corrupt, that's why he shouldn't be

president. Donald Trump is this, that's why he shouldn't be president. And it's like, I mean, if you study what the temperament of the office requires historically, it's like all that becomes moot and it becomes obvious why this is a bad idea for, you know what I'm saying? Oh, totally. It's like, people get so mad with certain things

about who's president, I think to myself, they shouldn't have that much power to begin with. That's what really matters. Because when they have too much power, it powers, and are you familiar with the site, humanprogress.org? No. Oh, phenomenal site. And it talks about all the statistics that are real,

like how it's the safest time in human history, like how we've lifted billions of people out of poverty in the last few decades, more than we've ever done in all of human history. But yeah, you get the sense we're like about to all die. Oh, totally. Like people think it's so tumultuous politically and like this is the craziest time ever.

Just look at the 60s and 70s. You had civil rights activists and leaders getting assassinated left and right. It was, Now in the 60s, there was something like 2,000 terrorist bombings in the Uniteds, there was something like 2,000 terrorist bombings in the United States by domestic, domestic acts of domestic terrorism, mostly by left extreme left wing groups, but some right wing groups. It was like almost every single day of like 10 years.

People were like throwing bombs and murdering cops and like, you know, it was a real domestic terror group that was doing crazy shit. Far worse than it is today. I wanna go back to when you first were introduced to stoicism, you were 19. Yeah, I thought something like that. Dr. Drew, right? Yeah, that was Dr. Drew.

Now, tell me about who you were before that and then who you became after that. Was it just a radical shift right away when you were introduced? I don't know if it was a radical shift, but I would say there was some transition where I went from being like just a kid to like what I would describe as a man. Do you know what I mean? Like I think it was like, oh, this is what an adult does and thinks like this is how Life is lit. Like this is what it means to take responsibility for yourself. This is what it means to take responsibility for yourself. This is what it means to have some idea of honor

or integrity or self-respect. I think it was just, I just remember sitting, I was sitting in the kitchen table in my college apartment and I was like, no one's ever talked to me like this. And not that he's not that Marcus really, this is critical, but and it was like, no one's ever talked to me like this. Like, and not that he's, not that Marcus Realis is critical, but it's more like he's like, no, you have this power, you have this responsibility like, and it's incumbent upon you to sort of seize it and live up to it.

And you dropped out of college. I did, not that long after that. No, what, did this play a role in you want to drop a little bit? A little bit. It was more like I was sort of on a track. Like I really wanted to be a writer. And so I'd gone and I'd met these very successful writers through, you know, the fact that I was a journalist in college and just was like, I was just looking for my shot. And I got a couple of them and I thought, I'm not going to come, I'm not going to turn down these opportunities to go back to a classroom

and have someone who knows less about that topic, teach me about it. That's a big thing to understand at the age of 19 in college. Yeah, it was very scary. Was there a lot of pushback from parents and? Yeah, I mean, I don't wanna say my parents disowned me because it wasn't like that st- it wasn't that like clear, but it was like it was a not pleasant time.

Like, like a lot forgiveness had to happen afterwards. At what point were they like, okay, you made the right decision? Yeah, no, I don't know if there was an exact date, but like it took a long time for that to heal. How much was that a driver for you? Not really, I've never been that kind of person. I try to talk about this in the book. It's a real shitty way to live your life. Like I feel like anger or that sort of proving them wrong

is a powerful fuel, but it's very corrosive. So it kind of eats it whatever the vessel that's holding it is. Yeah, most people that recognize that they'll had to go through it first before they piece it together. Yeah, maybe that's just not how I'm built or maybe I did go through and I sort of learn,

I don't know, the problem is not only, they're not even gonna notice when you do prove them wrong, that is they don't care. But it's not gonna be whatever when you do prove them wrong. They don't care. But it's not gonna be whatever you think it's gonna be. I think for me, it was more positive. It was more like, so these people over here don't believe in me, but these people over here

do believe in me. So I did try to go to the positive. Like I heard this from someone, it sounds a little cliche, but they're like, don't try to prove people wrong. Try to prove the people who believe in you right. And I definitely had some really great mentors and people who took a shot on me that in retrospect, it's like, I don't know how they saw it, because I didn't see it. You know what I mean? It's not like I was like, I'm destined for greatness.

Of course you're going to take this bet. It was more like, it was really selfless when I think about it. They were like, sort of bet on me and cultivated me and supported me. But I think the way I was primarily driven by was like not letting those people down, not thinking about the people who weren't supporting me. Do you remember like specific quotes or pieces of stoicism that like really like turned it on for you

or something that you read and you're like, holy shit, that like just bop. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's been a continual process of that. Like, what's so awesome about Stoicism, there's this, it's actually in meditations, he says, like, no man steps in the same river twice. And what he means is that like, you're changing always

and events are changing. So it's like, it's been, it's been really incredible for me that this book I read when I was 20, I've now read hundreds and hundreds of times, is still teaching me new things. And I think that's what really great wisdom does. But I mean, at the core, just that idea, I was like, oh, you don't control what happens, you control your spawn. It's like just like a sort of a very core life lesson that's helped me in business, that's

helped me in relationships, that's helped me in traffic. You know, it's like getting upset about this does absolutely nothing. And in getting upset, I'm leaving the following other options to rot. What in life challenges that for you the most? Like what happens to you in life where you're like, okay, I gotta remember, it's how I react and how I respond.

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, that's a good question. I mean, I do try to remind myself constantly as a writer. It's like, I control the books that I write. I control the time I put into like marketing them or positioning them or promoting them. But like ultimately you can't make anyone buy anything and you can't make the New York Times decide

to recognize it or whatever, right? Like you can only, there's way too many people hand over their personal happiness to, or they place it on the altar of like sort of professional success or recognition. And I mean, just think about how unfair the world is. Think about how many people have been discriminated against. How many times nepotism got in the way of, you know, someone, you know, some other person who more deserved it.

Think about all the really brilliant artists or, you know, visionaries who we made fun of, you know, like the world is not a meritocracy, like at all. And so if you go around and go, hey, I did X, where's my reward for doing X? You're gonna be continually crushed. You're a father, right? Yes.

Yeah, how old is your, your son? I have a three year old and a four month old. Oh, wow. What have your children taught you? I mean, you want to talk about like, what's not in your control? It's like, chaos. Yeah, it's chaos, but it's just a reminder that like,

you're not, you don't get to decide. Like I think, especially as you become successful and you sort of become, you know, the driver of your own career, or whatever, it's very rare that you're not doing things the way you want to do them, or on the schedule you want to do them. And it's like, hey, we left the house at noon

to go this thing at one, but then the kid fell asleep at 12.45. It's like, oh, actually, the event starts when he wakes up, not when we decide to go. You know what I mean? Like, like, you're not in control, like this small child is in control. Or, you know, you think this is fun, but actually they want to play with this cardboard box. So that's what you're going to do for the next, like, two hours. You know what I mean? Absolutely. It's been just sort of a constant reminder of just like going with it.

Do you ever think to yourself like, okay, you know, as my kids grow up, because I think your oldest was held for. For three. As you grow up and you know, becomes a teenager and the challenges get harder and harder, do you ever think to yourself like, okay, I'm gonna teach my kid like,

hey, you know, this is life, it's how you react to it. Do you feel like, what if he thinks, I'm gonna teach my kid like, hey, you know, this is this is life It's how you react to do you feel like what if he thinks I'm not being empathetic or you know, I'm like an I'm gonna communicate this to no, it's tricky. I started a site earlier this year called daily dad and I sort of look at It's daily dad calm and it's like try to take some of the same things I'm doing with stoicism But just sort of ancient wisdom apply the interesting thing is like people have been parents for literally as long as there's been humans, right? And yet we're kind of like we're way too focused on like what the latest parenting study says or what the latest educational practice is. And what we don't think about is like people have been doing a pretty good job for quite some time. And so I think one of the things I'm always looking at is like, what is smart? What did people smarter than me tend to do?

And what lessons can I learn from that? And how can I sort of practice them and follow them and just remind myself of them? Can you share some that you've learned? Yeah, I mean, the thing I was just telling you about not being in control, I read this story, I wrote an email about it. in control, I read this story, I wrote an email about it.

When David Brooks' son was born, someone sent him a letter and they said, welcome to the world of unavoidable reality. And what they meant is like a lot of times, like you get to avoid things you don't want, like you get to decide. And then it's like, you don't get to decide. You know, you thought you were going on

a wonderful beach vacation, and then both your kids got sick, you know, two seconds after you got to the hotel. And so actually your wonderful beach vacation is you sitting in a hotel room watching TV for the next three days. And I think that ties into another thing I learned. Jerry Seinfeld was giving an interview and he was talking about parents always talk about this idea of quality time. Like I want to have quality time. So that's like going to a museum or, you know, it's just me and you doing this. And he's like, fuck quality time. It's like it's garbage times the best time.

Like he's like that weekend that you're stuck in a hotel room because you're all sick is not any less meaningful than you all being at Disneyland. And in fact, it's like the forcing the moments. You see those families and the arguments at Disneyland because they're like, we paid so much money for this. You need to enjoy it, you know? And that's something I've really tried to practice. I don't have that much experience,

there's only three, but just like, no, this is it it like this is parenting parenting is not What you see in movies. It's not these special moments. It's just like I'm driving you to school and you're singing You know or like is that what you walk this morning? Is not we trying to highlight the most and steal this is to be yes recognize that those ordinary moments totally super present. Yeah, I think people go, people think like beauty is like looking out over the grand canyon or something. That's like the easiest way to like be like, oh isn't life wonderful. Can you say like, oh isn't life wonderful as you're like sitting back in one of those

crappy chairs at the airport because your flight's three hours delayed. You know what I mean? Can you, can you, like, it's not like, yeah, it's not looking at, you know, your breath on a, on a, you know, the top of a beautiful mountain, but it's just like noticing the way that the steam is coming up from the sewer when you're walking the, you know, down the block in New York City. Just like, can you notice just ordinary things about life and can you appreciate them and notice them and not try to, it's like, why are we rushing through all this? Right? You know, the still looks go like, you know what's at the end?

Death. Why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are, why are you, why are, why are you, why are, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are you, why are, why are you, why are you running? Yeah, exactly. Have you heard Jordan Peterson actually talk about this? No.

He on a, I believe it was Joe's podcast that he did this. Rogan? Yeah, he talked about, and this like changed my life. Yeah. Hearing this statement he makes, he goes, and he's right along the lines of your time out with vacations and shit. We got a Disneyland trip plan next year. We've already got a plan.

We've spent hours figuring the hotel out to look at, I mean, and he talks about all this time spent for this seven, the seven day or three day trip, you're going to do a year later. And he goes, when was the last time you thought about the first 10 minutes when you walk through the door and you see your wife every single day? That you're going to do for the rest of your life and the total time. It's the majority of your time. Yeah, that's more of your life. Sure. That you will spend doing of your time. Yeah, that's more of your life. Sure. That you will spend doing that than almost anything else,

but how often do you think about that 10 minute moment that you walk in, what you say to her first, how you look and I was just like, fuck. Yeah, no, no, people think, oh, I don't want him to watch this movie. There's like cursing in it. Or I don't like this bad friend who's in influence. And then what you don't think about is like,

what behavior are you modeling? They are watching you constantly. And you're thinking about all these sort of big set pieces and you're sort of ignoring the day-to-day reality of who you are as a human being. And yeah, it is weird though. Like, I see this with my parents, it's like they'll come to visit.

And then it's like, the important thing is like, did they check in for their flight in time? It's like you're here now. You know, like you're here now, and you who knows how many more times you can do this, why are you ignoring it to get, to remove some minor inconvenience in the future. My daughter actually taught me a lesson in that.

We were driving a couple hours to go somewhere, stuck in traffic, and I was super irritated because we were in traffic, and I'm visibly angry. My daughter is like, why are you so mad? I'm like, because we're not, we're going to be late for where we need to be. And she's like, well, what's so good about what we're going to go on? Because then we can all be together. And she goes, well, we're together now late for where we need to be. And she's like, well, what's so good about what we're gonna go on? Like, because then we can all be together. And she goes, well, we're together now. Oh, I guess you're right.

Totally. Yeah, totally blew my mind. What do your critics say about you? Do you have any critics? Of course, if you don't have any critics, you're not doing anything. What do they say? What do they mean, criticism?

Well, I like to crake Silverman in 2012. Oh, yeah. He didn't like you very much. He didn't. He didn't like you very much. He didn't. What do I care what he thinks? You know, right? Absolutely.

Yeah, he had this weird thing. Yeah, I think he was one of the first people to write about Trust Me I'm Lying and he wrote something. It was like, I was saying like, this is how the sausage gets made and it was like do you want to hear about it from the person? Who's making it was like yeah, of course like who would you rather it was a weird thing But the all those people it's like Where are they now, you know, I don't think about that that much I

I have critics on on all the books, you know, I know, it's important when you have critics. One, like so, Epic Titus as a line is like, when someone criticizes you, you should think like, if only they really knew me, they'd be a lot of meener. Love that, I love that line. You know, like I think that's really true. But one of the other things I think about when I'm criticized is that go,

like, okay, for instance, so people go, oh, they'll say like, oh, and Ego is oh, they'll say, oh, and ego is the enemy, or daily stock, or stillness is the key. They're like, Ryan's not saying anything that the, that, that, he's not saying anything new. And it's like, thanks. That's like, you nailed exactly what I was trying to do. Like, the point was I was supposed to take ancient wisdom and make it applicable for people. They'll go like, why not just read the original stugs. And I was like, I would love for them to do that. Like if you told me that nobody read my books,

but however many millions of people have read my books, read the actual stocks instead, and probably take that trade. It'd be bad for me financially, but good for the world, right? So you gotta think about, so oftentimes what people are saying critically is actually just rephrasing exactly

whatever your intention was. You know? So like when you're saying like, hey, this is just popularizing stosism, it's like, thanks. You know, that's exactly what I wanted to do. That's the goal. Brian Coppeman, he wrote rounders and billions.

He was telling me one time, I think he's talked about this in podcasts. When he went out for the script, for rounders, people were like, it feels like this is all just a bunch of, people saying cool things and die. He was like, there's too much, they were criticizing exactly,

like he and his partner, it set out to write a movie that was super quotable. There was like a bunch of dudes like saying cool things to each other, right? Splash the path whenever they fuck I want. That's right. Three stacks of highest of sayings. Yeah, but it works.

So, you have to know when you're getting criticism, like just because they're saying it doesn't mean it's bad. It might be exactly what you wanted to do. And I think about that a lot. And obviously with books, you have editors, you have critics, you have your friends reading. One of the mistakes they see a lot of creative people make is that they take all criticism seriously,

rather than going like, does this person one have any credentials, any expertise in the subject matter? And two, do they actually understand what I was trying to accomplish? Because if the criticism helps me get closer to what I want to accomplish, then I'll listen. If the criticism is correct, but actually reaffirms what I was trying to do, then I don't have to listen. What books are you reading now or what are some books that you've read that have really reaffirms what I was trying to do, then I don't have to listen. Right. What books are you reading now, or what are some books that you've read

that have really been impactful for you? I mean, I'm always reading. I tend to kind of have two different types of reading. There's like, hey, I think this would be cool that it may have learned from this. And more like, I'm studying this person for something I'm gonna write about. I mean, a really cool biography of Douglass MacArthur

that someone sent me right now and I'm fascinated in. I really, I've mentioned David Brooks earlier. I liked his book, The Second Mountain. I think David Epstein's book, Range is really good. I'd recommend that. Yeah. Have you read Eckhart Tolly? Yeah, here and there.

Yeah. He, I mean, he talks a lot about being in the present, but again, this is a message that's been echoed by... Of course. I mean, we're all, he and I, and all the people writing these books today are drawing from the same 25 sources. But we're not inventing any of this. Well, that just tells me that there's truth there.

When you hear it from different cultures and different people and different truth seekers, and it sounds very similar, just communicated in different ways, which I think is important. I don't think we can, we need to appreciate how important it is that people communicate the same effect of ideas differently

because then it reaches more people. Sure. I think that's a, that's it. We need to be reminded of these ideas. I think yeah, like we just keep going on. We forget like where the truth lies. And so it's good to bring it back to the surface. Right. Are you money motivated? And in what sense? I mean, I don't work for free. But, but are you driven by that? Is that is that a major motivation for you? And if not, what is? I don't, I wouldn't say I'm driven by it.

for you and if not what is? I don't, I wouldn't say I'm driven by it. I think it can sometimes be a proxy for like heading in the right direction, but in other times it can be evidence of the exact opposite, right? So the way I think like for me, like autonomy is what I want. I want, so there are lots of things

that I've done in my life that got me more money, but less autonomy and they made me unhappy. And then there's times I've turned down fairly large amounts of money or fairly cool opportunities that other people would have probably gladly said yes to, that got me further away. So I kind of think about, I don't think, I think less about, let me accumulate as much money as possible, and I think more about like, what do I want my life to look like? And not like, how do I make it here?

So then it could be here, so then it could be here. But more like day to day, what kind of life do I want to live? And then I think about, are the decisions that I'm making or the things I'm saying yes to or doing, is it moving me closer to that or further away from that? What do you think is that how you measure that?

Do you think it's like a time money thing for you? Is it like, this cost me this much time in order to create something like this to make so much money, which in turn, you normally use to create more freedom anyways? Yeah, a little bit. I was talking to Casey Neistat one time, and he was like, you don't make art to make money,

you make money to make more art. And so one of the things I think about is, if I am going to do something, my role for my creative agency, which has worked with a bunch of cool brands and businesses and authors, and then when I'm like ghost writing or other projects like that, I think like,

okay, this is either something, like if I'm weighing a project, it's either like this is something I'm really proud of or this gives me money that allows me to pursue work or things that I am proud of. So it's gotta pass one of those tests. Yeah. Do you have a writing process?

Or is there a way that you get yourself in the space to be able to create what you create? Do you have a formula for yourself? You have to. I think people think writers are just like, living some fantasy life or that you sort of roll out of bed and just write it. Yeah, it's not.

It's a kind of, you have to have a routine. I don't wanna say you're like a monk or something, but you have to take care of yourself and you have to have really good habits because it's such a long process. It's not, you know, the new book, you know, still this probably took two years to write, you know, probably three probably took two years to write, you know, probably three

years from start to finish on the whole thing, from the thinking to the, you know, the launch day a couple weeks ago. And so that's not, you know, you're not measuring three years in days, like it's weeks or months, right? And so if you're just like, winging it, that's, you're not going to get where you need to go. You got to have it. And what I think is like you have good habits, you have good processes, you have good discipline. What comes out of that is publishable work. So it's like I show up, I do it every day, day in and day out, and then out of the other side of that comes

the stuff that I want. Do there are some things that you do for yourself that will help get you in that? And like do you have to, I know people who... Listen, amuse it. You don't have to go for a walk. You have to go for a walk. You have to go for a walk.

Right, a bunch of bullshit that doesn't go anywhere, you know, just get it out of your brain. Yeah, so every morning, so I wake up early and then my son and I would go for a long walk. Don't take the phone, long walk. Then I come in and I usually sit down with a journal and I spend some time doing what they call morning pages, just sort of like knocking stuff out. And then I try to go just sort of right into the writing and I try to get as much of it done as early as possible.

So I'm very protective of that space. So my assistant basically never schedules anything before noon And even my other rule is like basically nothing no more than like three things a day Obviously like being on book tours a little bit different, but like Like I remember I sat her down with my schedule. I was like look anytime you are scheduling things I'm not writing in that time and so Your job is not to say yes to things, but to say no to things, so I can have space to do this main thing. Are you writing something now?

Yeah, I mean, so this one just came out and then. God, you have a book coming out and you're writing another one. Always, but I mean, that's how you prevent the good and the bad from getting, from hitting you too hard. So I found out yesterday a debut at number one on the New York Times list. Oh wow. But this morning I was back at it and it was like hard. And so you don't have time to think about the good stuff.

And if it had been snubbed, I would have been too busy with the challenge to worry about the thing. You know. Do you find the process of creating and writing because you've done it now so many times getting easier or is it getting harder? It's easier in some ways because you can predict where things are going a little bit, right? Like so when things are really hard, I know like things are always hard at this stage or whatever, right? There's a little bit of that. Like I'm sure the first time Tiger Woods

reinvents his swing, he has no idea whether he's gonna come out the other side with it and a better swing. The second time he does, it's probably a little less scary and the third time probably a little less scary. So I'm sure it's the same with starting a company or, you know, skydiving or whatever it is. So I think that's part of it. But it never, the blank page never gets any less blank. Yeah, I was just going to say because I feel like the easier part would be, well, I've

done this a few times. The hard part would be, I got gotta come up with more great ideas and more great books and I've already put out four or five or whatever. Nine. No, it's never as good on the pages it is in your head. And the expression is like your last book will never write your next one. So you always are starting from scratch, but it's like, oh yeah, it's not any good. Were any of the books good at this stage? No, you know, so you just keep going. I see.

So you have some more context or experience that allows you to sort of think about it differently. Because you've been doing this so much, I mean, you write blogs, you write, I mean, you're writing books all the time, you're writing emails, you're constantly creating content. Do you know, like when you hit send, or you like, this is fire, like, can you tell?

And I can tell you, like, we'll see how this goes. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I wrote this piece a while back. I sort of, to me, like the thing I'm chasing is like that sound of the ball connecting with the bat. You can just really feel it sometimes. You're like, I really got under this one. I really got this in the right spot.

That flow state. Yeah. Sometimes I can just hear that sound in my head. And it's sort of like a mantra for me. So you're not thinking about the results. You're not thinking about where the ball's going. You're not thinking the crowd. You're just thinking just the connecting part. So yes, sometimes you're like, OK, this is going to happen.

I really did it. Other times, you're like, did I get it? Did I get there? And then you're surprised. Other times you're convinced you cracked it and nobody cares. So it's definitely an art, not a science. Are you competitive with your last book

or is it a completely new thing every time? You're competitive, I mean, you're competitive in the sense that kind of benchmarks you a little bit, but like, you know, so the launch of this one, I think is like four times what you go was, which is awesome, but at the same time, like what I'm really not interested in is like week to week.

Like, I care, like, or did I make something that's got a shot, it's still being here in 10 years, or something like that. I want to think longer term than, and I have the benefit now of looking at the sales numbers of the other books and it's like, oh, launch week was less than 1% of overall sales. So why am I going to put too much significance on launch week one way or another? Right, right. Do you think that, because since you do use it like a benchmark like that, and one of the things I think about right away is the conversation that we had with Mark Manson and his

Settle art of not giving a fuck. Yeah, like do you think that's kind of almost a bad thing or would you it to be that early on in your writing career and Hit something out that's chasing the damn Bible. It's like how am I ever gonna? You're never gonna top that are you? Yeah, so I think I have this quote in the book So somebody asked Joseph Heller, he's the guy that wrote Catchpoint, too, that some snarky critic was like, you haven't written a book as good as Catchpoint, too. And he was like, who has?

Yeah, I do. So Mark wrote a great book that's all the metric shit ton of copies, like the idea that not doing that again is failure is just like post-risk. So I think, you know, when you're in that position, you've got to come up with some reasonable, objective measurement of what success is. I think that we're in isolation. I think it would be hard though, don't you?

Because it's like saying a baseball, using the baseball analogy, like you had a year where you hit 20 home runs, you probably expect you're gonna hit 20 home runs, but that's a great season. It's an incredible season. How about that? How about people hit 20 home runs? That's really why you have to always come back sort of to the present, which is not comparing yourself

to the past, not speculating about the future, but just writing the best fucking book that you can, putting everything you have into the marketing, not feeling like you left anything on the table or you were entitled. I think what you tend to see is like all the good habits that went into the one level, like early success, whether it's in sports or writing or whatever, people abandon the second goal around because they think they don't need to do it anymore. You know what I mean? So Pat Riley says like the disease of me, he says the team has the innocent climb that's

early on, and then the disease of me pulls them apart. The second, when you try to repeat championships. So I think, you know, I think Mark did a good job. I think I've tried to do a good job. It's like, it's not how many copies of the last book sell, but what were the principles that went into making it a success? Because ultimately that's what you control. Like, look, that book is such a monster hit.

Obviously, some of us to do a timing, and you can't recreate timing. And there are moments that I've had with my books, like, oh, this promo worked out better than expected because of some freak timing things. And there's bad things that have happened that were not my fault either. And so I got to tune all that out and go,

what were the things I control that's part of the process that I can replicate in rounds two, three, four, five? You had mentioned earlier that you really valued autonomy quite a bit. Do you think this is like one of the prevailing traits among all authors and maybe even entrepreneurs that we just value autonomy so much so we're like, hey, I don't want to work for someone else, I want to be able to do my own thing. Yeah, I mean, just like not wanting to go to an office is probably a bad reason to be an entrepreneur

But like you know, and I think some people do it that way I think it's more like it's like no I I Want to be in control of my destiny. I don't want other people telling me what I can and can't do. Like to me, what I love about being an author is like, if I write something, more or less the way I wrote it, is going to be how it comes out. Then I talk to people who work in Hollywood. They get paid, if you make it to,

like whatever my level is as an author, translated to being a screenwriter would be, a considerable pay increase, but people spend two years of their life writing a script and then some studio execs says, nope, not, or you get fired off your own project. Yeah, so ultimately I like being in control of the destiny more than I like some of the other things.

Has it been a trade of yours since you were a kid? I think in retrospect, yeah. Yeah. Were you a good kid? Were you? I was a much better kid than I think people thought I was. Like I think people thought I was, you know, somewhat difficult to manage or whatever,

but in retrospect it's like, that could have been a lot worse. You know what I mean? What would your parents say is the biggest pain the ass about you? Oh, that's a question. I don't know. Probably that's what I mean, probably the autonomy thing,

but it's like, it's not like I wanted autonomy so I could go do heroin. You know, it's like, I want to write books, mom. Yeah, right. Well, excellent, man. Well, one last question I got to ask you, you know, book crushes it. Big paycheck comes to the mail, goes in the check, or in the bank account, what's the first thing you go buy or spend money on?

Yeah, it was actually, so I just sort of worked out a deal for what my next book will be, and it is like a pretty considerable check. Don't lie to us. It's a don't lie to us. What even? How much it is? I have a million dollars, right?

Yes, right, right, right. Now, more than that. But I was marveling to my wife that it's, I don't that it doesn't really change anything. I think we have our life the way we want it. We mostly do the things I want to do. I've tried to set out my life and live from a place that there's not a lot of craving in it. There's not a lot of, if only I had X, then I could do X.

If I really want to do something, I'll find a way to do it. I don't think money is like the best way to get there. So yeah, like if I had a, if I had a hundred million dollars, I don't think it would substantially change my life that much. If I lost, you know, 90% of my net worth, it wouldn't change my life that much. That's kind of what stoicism is about.

It's about getting to a place where it's really hard to rattle you. Because or that you can't, you can rock the boat, but you can't capsize it. And so that's not an easy place to get to and it's taken some work, but. No guilty pleasures though. Not really, no.

Really? Yeah. Oh, that's cool. You know, like an Iron Maiden concert front row VIP back seat, like nothing like that? No, it's funny. So I spoke to the San Antonio Spurs like two weeks ago, and they were like, hey, this is the offer, this is the thing.

I said, look, the night before the talk, Iron Maiden is playing at the AT&T Center, I'll come, but I want to. It's great. They like toly hope for this. Yeah, no problem. The best seats, it was amazing. That's right. That's awesome.

Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you, man. Yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, we really appreciate the books you write. We think you're doing good work, man. Well, thanks, man. Yeah, man. And what the link up when we're out in Texas, we're out there all the time. So.

What do you guys go out there for? Well, so we know the crew at on it really well. I just talked to Aubrey this morning. Oh, did you really? Yeah. Which is, we are actually talking about that even because I know that some of the stuff, I saw your interview with him and we kind of tease him of being like the pleasure seeker all the time.

Yeah. So it was interesting that you guys, that you guys connected because I feel like stoicism is kind of the opposite of that philosophy, right? Yeah, a little, yeah, you could say... You razz him about it for a little bit. I mean, Aubrey's a bit of an epicurion, or rather than a stoke, I'd say, in that element of it.

But the other, I think the core part of stoicism too is that it's like, my angel in fucking business. You know, like Aubrey's a cool dude. He's smart. We connect over the things we like. What Aubrey does in his personal life as no, you know, I'm not gonna judge it, it doesn't bother me, it doesn't affect me just like,

the fact that mine's very different from his has never been an issue that way. So I think that's one of the weird things about our society too is like people seem to give way too much attention and energy towards like things that are really no meanwhile to go the parenting thing meanwhile there's sort of neglecting the stuff where they really do have influence. So we're so sure much give too many fucks about the shit they shouldn't exactly yeah yeah and not enough

fucks about their own shit that's right. All right man well thanks for coming on again. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPumpMedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballad, maps for performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin

as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money bag guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is MindPump. Introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support.

And until next time, this is Mind Pump.