Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1252: Confessions of a Sports Agent

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind up, mind up with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, we interview an actual licensed sports agent. His name is Win Silverman, he's a close friend of Adam, and he's worked with some amazing elite athletes that include Oakland Raiders, Jack Tatum, Marquette King, Rod Strader, Josh Jacobs, Gold Medalist, Beach volleyball player, Kerry Walsh, San Francisco Giants, Third Basement

Starting point is 00:00:37 and World Series MVP, Pablo Sandevol, and Cleveland Brown, Star Wide Receiver, O'Dell Beckham, Jr. He tells some interesting, entertaining stories in this episode. You won't want to miss this podcast, the Mind Pump. You can winsmedia.com. That's W-Y-N-N-S-M-E-D-I-A.com. Also, this episode is brought to you by our sponsor, Legion. Now, Legion makes some of the best supplements out there. They're scientifically backed with ingredients that actually work in the doses that actually work. All of their products have full transparency. So that means you can look at the bottle and it tells you exactly how much of each ingredient is in there and they're all third party tested. None of

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Starting point is 00:03:46 Go to mapswhite.com. That's MAPSWHITE.com and use the code white50. That's WHITE.com. IT50, no space for the discount. Are you still messing with the, what's the rehab center thing you are messing around with? With the hyperberex? Yes, thank you. Yeah, you are.

Starting point is 00:04:06 Yeah, I like that a lot. I believe in that a lot. Yeah, how deep are you into that? Well, about two meters depending on how far they want to drop you. Stupid. Bro, I like this guy. I don't know. I mean, I hope we could air this.

Starting point is 00:04:20 I told the guys, he's got quite the personality. I don't know. We'll see if we can put this out to our audience. I think that's one of the few things that really work. Oxygen heals, that's proven. I believe in that. I think the PRP stuff, there's some credibility to it. Stem cells, that's a whole shit show. Are you doing that there too?

Starting point is 00:04:43 I'm not doing that there, but I mean, I've been involved with stem cell research since I was, I fresh out of college when I was playing basketball in Sweden. Yeah, I actually worked with the Dr. Viedner as the pioneer in stem cell research. He was the one that first used fetal tissue for stem cell research.

Starting point is 00:05:01 And so ironically, and his dad, this is Lund University, his dad was a preacher and ordained minister, and they literally were fighting each other because, you know, from an abortion's perspective. And that's when this is when Bush put the moratorium on stem cell research because they're using induced abortions for the fetal tissue. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Did you know that cell? Yeah. Oh, wow. There was this crazy, yeah. So there's this crazy debate debate and then the pioneer of this shit was like literally fighting with his dad based on a theological theory.

Starting point is 00:05:30 So that's where I was fascinated because I'd back around in bioethics. So I got the study under this guy while I was hooping over there. Oh no shit. I didn't involve that shit. And now stem cells like over soul, I mean I feel like sometimes it's over hyped,

Starting point is 00:05:40 is it legit or is it mostly like, eh maybe. What do you think about core blood? I know somebody that was involved in that. Yeah, I mean, I like anything from the beginning, right? I mean, that's kind of intuitively, that's what you think. In terms of, in terms of the context of athletes and injury, what I am involved with, I would say that there's certainly

Starting point is 00:06:00 a medical marketing now for all kinds of different stem cells. I mean, there's this bullshit about freezing, you know, the frozen stem cells are gonna work. I don't think that's gonna work. There's a theory on being able to pull from your hip, your own stem cells, and injecting that. There's some physicians that say that.

Starting point is 00:06:17 I don't necessarily believe in that one. I think it's gotta be nascent, and that's why, you know, I think the fetal tissue makes sense for me. But again, I'm not a scientist. I'm just trying to researches. Well, you, you're a good person though. This is a great place to even start too, because you're around professional athletes and you have been now for well over a decade. What are some of the things that, what are the things that have impressed you the most with like speaking to recovery and rehab? I would say honestly, stem cell is big,

Starting point is 00:06:47 PRP's big, hyperbaric recovery, hyperbaric oxygen is huge. I think hyperbarics is one of the most misunderstood things in Western medicine. Western medicine is so slow to predict anything, right? They don't wanna ratify anything for years. And yet, if you talked to a traditional orthopedic surgeon for hyperburet therapy, they go, oh yeah, yeah, that heals the diabetic's foot. It's for wound healing, right? But they don't

Starting point is 00:07:11 go, they're not taught to go any further than that. And when you start doing the research, when I've seen clinically, when I see a ball player who's a linebacker with the Niners, busted his ankle. I mean, third degree sprain would have been out for six to eight weeks at a minimum. And the thing was ballooned. He goes into the, I call it the tank, he goes into the oxygen chamber. That thing has reduced the first session that things reduced by 40%.

Starting point is 00:07:36 He's back on the field in two weeks. He was in a contract year, probably made him $15 million. Wow. So that's something that I've seen and I believe in. Yeah, I used to train a lot of I've seen and I believe in. Yeah. I used to train a lot of doctors and surgeons and I would ask them questions like, what would be the top three things you would do if you had cancer? That was terminal.

Starting point is 00:07:56 There was no traditional methods or whatever. Hyperbaric chamber always came up because of its effects on cancer. Which is fascinating because there's a debate about that because obviously when you think oxygen heals, you question whether, oh shoot, does that feed the cancer, right? But from what of research I see that is not true and it does in fact attack it. Yeah, oxygen kills cancer cells from what I've read. So it's like one of the things you could do that's not, you know, chemo or conventional treatment.

Starting point is 00:08:24 So it's really interesting. Now, what are like the methods are using in Panama in terms of stem cell I know that like that that's sort of the mecca now for the new wave of stem cell What would I understand again this goes back to to US legislation and that's a whole another conversation I don't necessarily want to get into today, but from what I understand one of the reasons why stem cell research in the United States is so slow is because the FDA has jurisdiction on anything that's that's harbored. I mean, anything that you can't you can't store these cells, for example, right? And so if you can't do that, you're limited as to what you're allowed to do scientifically. And so Panama or we hear about athletes going to Germany to get the shot,

Starting point is 00:09:08 the quote unquote shot, things like that. It has everything to do with US legislation on this topic more than anything else. That's all I really know about that. Interesting. Now talking about athletes, recovery, how many of these athletes that you see are doing the right things and how many of it, because this is what I've ran into and I've ran into this hanging out

Starting point is 00:09:29 with you before, meeting some of these pro athletes. And what I was seeing this was just maybe five, six years ago, I think when you were you and I were hanging out and I won't roll any professional athletes from the bus, but I wrote a lot of them tend to hire, there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, anybody have a drink You know a lot of them tend to higher their their best friend who went and got certified as a personal trainer Yeah, you know how common is that with these Multi-million dollar athletes and how many of them are actually investing like the LeBron James is going out and spending millions of dollars a year on hiring all the experts. It's limited.

Starting point is 00:10:08 It's limited. I think I just heard an article about LeBron James eating a bunch of pancakes and all that as part of his fuel, but that's a whole nother conversation. In terms of, you know, it's as an athlete and coming up through literally through childhood, you're such a talent, right? And you're so used to whatever whatever you practice is your habit. So if you're gonna eat McDonald's or if you're just gonna hang around

Starting point is 00:10:29 or just work out every once in a while, that's kind of what you're used to. A lot of these guys are so athletic, they're so gifted, they don't train themselves even consider things like that, where you're talking about to increase the opportunity from the even better. Still today though, I feel like that's what it was

Starting point is 00:10:46 two decades ago when we were all fucking kids, but I feel like it's, we now see cryotherapy. We see hyperbarek chamber, we see all these things now and you're hearing about more and more people. I feel like, and maybe this is me and my own little bubble because I'm around professionals all the time that are talking about topics like this. Is it really still that small of a percentage

Starting point is 00:11:07 or taking advantage or really taking their diet to the next level and their rehab and all that and the recovery? I think what you're really tap into is disruption of culture which takes a long fucking time. If you, let's be honest, the majority of athletes in the NFL or African American, right? If you look at the culture, if you look, the majority of athletes in the NFL are African-American, right? If you look at the culture, if you look at the type of food

Starting point is 00:11:29 that they were quote unquote raised on, I mean, grandma, she cooks fried chicken, she cooks, it's the cool aid, it's high sugar content, things, these are things that they're used to. So it's not only recognizing from a professional perspective that you need to get better and really take a look at your health and diet, it's more embedded in you culture. It's like, what smells good when I go to grandma's house?

Starting point is 00:11:50 It's the fried chicken. Well, what do I crave? Fried chicken. I mean, and look at Martian Lynch, that quote about, oh, you gotta take care. Take care of y'all's chicken or something like that. I mean, these are things that are embedded in your culture, right?

Starting point is 00:12:03 And so it's deeper than just recognizing that you need to fill your body differently. I would also imagine that if you're at that level of an athlete, because I've met a lot of work with athletes, and I know that there's a bit of a superstition. Like, I don't like to change these socks every time I wear them, I win. So now you got this diet, you've been eating it

Starting point is 00:12:22 in a particular way, you've crushed in high school, crushed in college, became a pro. I don't want to change nothing. It's not broken. I'm crushing. Is there a little bit of that mentality? There's 100% of that mentality. I mean, if you speak to any athlete, if a running back has a hundred yard game, he's going to do the exact same thing. Exact and ritual is is is is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is Obviously, to try not get in trouble. He gets a double scoop ice cream sundae and then a pizza right before midnight. And that's what he, and the team provides it. The team provides it. I mean, that's what he does.

Starting point is 00:13:11 Well, you know what, though, here's the thing. You don't want to mess with someone's mental state either. If you've done that for years. That's kind of, that's kind of be the, how do you juggle that, right? How do you juggle? And then how does someone like you as an agent who's in between who's like trying to tell him,

Starting point is 00:13:23 like, hey, man, if we took this diet thing a little bit more serious, maybe we, and look at that, right? We're going to your, going to what you say. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a difference between like, look, if he's winning, I don't care what you do whatever you did last night, like keep going. There is, I have a story and this is where we probably strike any trouble and strike any edit, but I don't really care.

Starting point is 00:13:40 I have a great story about a Pablo Sanoval. Okay. So Pablo Sanoval, World Series MVP, third base in the Giants, we're, we care, I have a great story about Pablo Santaval. Okay. So, Pablo Santaval World Series MVP, third base in the Giants, we're, we're, we have a birthday party. And just my luck, he, the Giants are playing Miami. So, and he's like, Poppy, you know, Yada come to my birthday and I'm like,

Starting point is 00:13:56 great Poppy, that's like a thousand miles away. I don't wanna go. He's like, yes, you're going. And so, at the time I was working with him, so yes, I was going. Yeah. And we, I mean, we got down. We had a great birthday.

Starting point is 00:14:10 It was a good time. And I looked at the watch and it was four in the morning, and then five in the morning. And then at some point, I'm like, dude, we gotta, we gotta get back to your hotel. You know, he's gotta gain the next day. Yeah. Oh, man.

Starting point is 00:14:24 We're the day off. Day off, yeah, literally. So, we're literally, we're in a car and my palms start sweating because the last thing I wanna do, it's one thing for like, Paul but a walk in there. And it is what it is, right? He maybe gets in trouble, maybe doesn't.

Starting point is 00:14:40 But for me in Paul but to be seen, the optics of that, for a team to see me, that's not good, that's not good for business. You know, that's not good. You allowed this. Yeah, all I'm hoping is that I pop out of the car, give him a nap and I'm out. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:54 Hop out of the car, give him a nap. There's fucking Bruce Bochi smoking a cigarette. Saying, Jesus Christ, Pablo. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like the worst possible scenario. Oh my God. How do you play? Yeah. Hit a hit a donner. It went yard that night. Went yard that night. Had a great game. Which goes to my point. It's like, look, sometimes, you know, you don't know what it is. But the Lord's Taylor used to show up all fucked up before the game all night doing whatever he's doing and then ball the fuck out

Starting point is 00:15:25 Yeah, I don't know I first stores Dennis Rodman like that too. So yeah, like like major playoff games and just killing it after Full part in this be honest when you're dealing with that level of performance what's more crucial and critical to manage mental state or Nutrition honestly, yeah, at that point. Yeah, at's just high level. Yeah, nutrition and taking care of the body, that is a, that's the long game. That's something that you play for weeks and months and years of consistency. And you don't see the real benefits until months and years later,

Starting point is 00:15:57 where when you're talking about the moment, the night I get the phone call, you know, what you have him eat that night is really not gonna make a fucking huge difference. No, especially if you get them out of the routine, spook them a little bit, call, you know, what you have him eat that night is really not gonna make a fucking huge difference. No, especially if you get them out of the routine, spook them a little bit like, oh shit, I didn't do my normal pizza at midnight or whatever. Then they play and they suck. Never again. They're never gonna do it until they begin. They're gonna go back to their pizza. I gotta talk to you. Yeah, I gotta talk to you about, you know, the Raiders moving to Las Vegas.

Starting point is 00:16:22 And like, what kind of potential things you see happening in terms of from an agent perspective, from a manager perspective, how are they gonna be able to control or keep the team together? Oh man, that's a loaded question. I mean, it's something that they're concerned about. It's something we're all concerned about.

Starting point is 00:16:42 Look, Vegas, here's another tidbit on a story. I'd get out a, a sounds like a receiver. I'll limit it to there because I've represented a couple of receivers from sounds like that's okay. K was a drafted, a draft guy. Got his signing bonus. Told me that he wanted to go to Vegas. I said, okay, that's fine.

Starting point is 00:17:01 Sunday night, I get a phone call. A, I need a, you know, I need a, I need, can I get like 10? Like, 10 what? 10 racks. 10 racks. You just got your SB. You're signing bonus.

Starting point is 00:17:14 Man, it's been a weekend. The guy blew through his signing bonus throughout the weekend. Now, in other areas, in other places in the country, that would be crazy, right? In Vegas, you can easily do 300 grand or 400 grand in a weekend. Like, very easily, your boys are in town, there's 25 people, you got the pool party, you got, well, Friday night, you got a table service, right?

Starting point is 00:17:37 That's probably at least 10 or 15 grand. Then you got the pool party Saturday. Don't forget about the pool party, that's 20 grand. Then you got to take everybody eat, that's another 10 grand. Then you want to go big Saturday night, so that's the pool party Saturday. Don't forget about the pool party. That's 20 grand. Then you got to take everybody eat. That's another 10 grand. Then you want to go big Saturday night. So that's the 40 grand table. Because that's extra bottles. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:17:51 And then you gamble a little bit, you know? And lose track. It's not that hard. Yeah. It's not that. Isn't that the main reason why they have avoided sports teams there for so long? Isn't that part of the reason why?

Starting point is 00:18:02 Is that true? Yeah. I mean, my whole theory on that is that there's two, they see, the league sees two major opportunities in the next, you know, 20 to 30 years to make money. Number one, we didn't gambling. We didn't gambling. This was all, this is, don't think that this just came up overnight.

Starting point is 00:18:19 I had a, there was a competition, there was an arm wrestling competition. I don't remember if you guys, if you guys remember this type of thing, but there's a thing where NFL players would compete against NFL players and then be guided by professional arm wrestlers. What? I didn't see that.

Starting point is 00:18:33 So there was a thing on CBS last year. I forget the name of it, but it was on CBS. And so I got called as if I could see it in the players. And they're offering some good money for this, right? And so I had about five or six guys go down there, and we spent a week in Vegas, which was a disaster. I will never spend another week in Vegas two days.

Starting point is 00:18:51 It's been a long week. Two days is my limit. We were having 42 for breakfast, it got bad. You know? But what happened was these guys all got paid, CBS ran the production, and they got a call from the NFL saying they're going to find every player that participated in the arm wrestling tournament because it

Starting point is 00:19:13 was held on a property, a casino property, and they did not want them affiliated with casinos. Oh, interesting. No, really shit. Yeah, but what happened is even, it was even funnier. So what happened is CBS is a part, like a major partner, right? And CBS goes, whoa, whoa, whoa,

Starting point is 00:19:30 we're gonna show this. And no, no, we're not gonna do that. Finds went away. Oh, just went away. Finds went away. Interesting. So back to your point with Vegas and the region what's going on, look, I mean, come on,

Starting point is 00:19:42 the negotiated CBA right now, there's some stories about the CBA, being negotiated right now, the unions trying to negotiate with ownership right now. And right now, sponsorships are allowed with casinos for teams, for stadiums, right? Why aren't coaches and players allowed to acquire sponsorship?

Starting point is 00:20:02 Oh wow. It's still illegal. I wonder why? Because the league sees gambling again and cannabis as two opportunities to make a lot of money in the next 20 or 30. Is there potential like conflict like okay if it was playing? It was participating. Yeah, sports betting could throw a game or something like that or is that not really

Starting point is 00:20:17 issue? Well, I mean, I've personally, you know, when I was playing at Northwestern, I played football at Northwestern University every year, the FBI would come in and talk with us. And the reason is, the reason is we had a former teammate that accidentally fumbled against Ohio State. He got 10 years. We had a ball player, missed a couple of free throws. He got three years.

Starting point is 00:20:42 And so after that, Shytown, I mean, come on. Shytown. How could they prove that? Well, when you're, it's convenient when it just moves over the line. Yeah, go check out North Western Ohio State, I think it was 90. Wow, it must have been real. We were at the goal line.

Starting point is 00:20:56 Okay, we're at the goal line. And there's no way that you've almost coughs it. Yeah, you don't follow that, come on, guy. You don't do that. Especially when it's right on the Vegas line, right? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, you start looking at it. So the FBI would always come and address like,

Starting point is 00:21:11 hey, here's the deal. And here's how deep it goes. You can't tell your friends how practice went, okay? If they're asking you how, you know, at that time, Darnell Othry was running back. If he's hurt, you can't tell them that he's hurt. That's insider information. That's insider information. That's insider information.

Starting point is 00:21:26 So it's pervasive and goes to your point. Sure, is there an essential conflict? Yeah, but I mean, come on. If the teams, do you have you heard what's going on in that stadium with the Raiders? No. Oh, man, I mean, it's gonna be, I know they have like a jail on site.

Starting point is 00:21:42 Well, it's just, yeah. What I hear is there's, you know those buttons, you can press in the glass kind of flashes so you can't see into the suites. They have those things, they have stripper pulls. You know, that's what I'm hearing. Can you gamble there? You should be able to gamble there

Starting point is 00:22:00 if you're in a suite, right? Oh my God. You might be able to, because there's no tailgating, the whole thing about the league is they're trying to get people to come into the stadium quicker, right? Because you sell more beer and you sell all that stuff. So anything to get them into the stadium, well, that's why Chicago Bears, for example,

Starting point is 00:22:15 are one of the first teams that banned tailgating, and everybody has pissed off about it. Well, why are they banning that? They want them in the stadium. Absolutely, 100%. So now there's talk that you might be able to stay They want them in the stadium. Absolutely, 100%. Oh, I don't know. So now there's talk that you might be able to stay the night before in the stadium. You don't know, what time of the game it's gonna be.

Starting point is 00:22:30 We don't know what's Vegas, it's always open. You. It sounds like Biff, you remember from the back to the future? That sounds like one of his ideas. Yeah, it does. I drove by that stadium, it's crazy. Have you guys seen it? Yes, it's all black out and everything.

Starting point is 00:22:43 That's crazy. That's gonna be insane. And if it's successful and they do what you're talking about, that could potentially set a standard, wouldn't you say? It will, that's what their plan is. That's what I would say. Wow. So what were you saying about weed in the NFL?

Starting point is 00:22:56 What's the deal there? Yeah, let's talk about it. You know, it's troubling to me because right now, as it stands, the union is negotiating against the owners for a new collective bargaining group to extend the labor peace agreement, right? And one of the main topics is cannabis. And right now, if you look at the MLB did,

Starting point is 00:23:15 they ratified cannabis completely, right? They took it off the banned substance list. And that's where it should be, by the way. And in fact, the only argument that I can make for cannabis to be on a band substance lease, if you can argue that it's performance enhancing, maybe, maybe, but nothing, nothing but that. So right now, the way the owners of Negotiate is like, look, okay, the way it works today is that players only get tested one time for cannabis. And

Starting point is 00:23:44 ironically, you guys could guess the date. It actually actually start getting tested. Fort one, no they don't. I swear to God, I swear to God, that's the beginning. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. Because the league here starts in March. And it's a message to the players like,

Starting point is 00:23:56 Hey, if you're smoking, just fucking stop for like a couple weeks while you get tested. And then you can go free, which makes it even more crazy as to why any player would test positive for cannabis. It's like, do it. You've disciplined yourself for a moment. You're just six, like, and mind you, like, okay,

Starting point is 00:24:11 four twenties when you start, and you still have to get summoned to take the test. So what happens is when you get your pink slip, like, hey, you gotta go piss, it's like the winning lottery ticket that these guys have. They are so excited. Cause then they can finally start blazing again. Thank you. Thank again. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:24:25 Okay. So that's how it goes right now. So it starts at 4.28. When you get tested, you're good to go for the entire year. And you guys still get caught. Guys still get caught. And then what happens is if they get caught, the first offense, the team doesn't get notified. The team doesn't get notified. But they have to be put in what's called the program, which is awful. You have to go to like almost like an AA version, you know. You have a counselor, you have to visit, we have to piss all the time, you're fucked.

Starting point is 00:24:51 You're fucked. And then it's when you test twice and you get suspended, well then you're just complete. You're kind of a moron at that point. It's weird because cannabis has some really interesting anti-inflammatory effects on the brain and football, obviously starting to get a little bit of a bad rap with CTE. Cannabis actually is not, theoretically, from the studies I've seen, could be a great way to prevent those kinds of issues. So a player playing a game, getting battered,

Starting point is 00:25:22 blazing up afterwards, might actually be a good thing. A hundred percent. And so, and this is where the union is today with the owners. So, that's how it is as of right now. What they're negotiating right now, what's on the term sheet, is that the amount, the time frame for testing, it's still going to be 420, but it's only, it's limited to two weeks.

Starting point is 00:25:40 Because right now, it's, that's when they can start testing. Sometimes, guys don't get tested till September, right? So they limited to two weeks and they increase the number of nanograms you can have of THC in your system from like 30 to 150. Okay. If that makes, I don't know about that nanogram stuff, but that's what they used to measure. I guess it's a litmus. We'll go with that.

Starting point is 00:26:01 And it's a P test. Yeah, it's a Pist test. It's a Pist test. So, but this is bullshit. I mean, look, the MLB eradicates it. MBA is, you know, has always been, you know, seen it differently. And to your, to what you say, look, there's neurologists out there. There's a whole lot of studies.

Starting point is 00:26:16 These cannibals, the chirps, whatever you want to say, literally can help, help with brain injury. And I got to tell you whether it's college football, high school football, the pros, the amount of pain that football creates is insane. And for a guy to be, I have so many friends who are still hooked on the vikin'in, right? It's vikin'in' vikin'in' vikin'in' you never can kick it.

Starting point is 00:26:41 Like I would much rather promote the positive effects of a plant than pain management through something like that than synthetic fucking opium. Oh, totally. And if you're right in terms of the performance, I mean, I remember when Nick Diaz got in trouble for his mocha weed in the, and I'm like, man, he should get another award.

Starting point is 00:26:58 If you won that fight while he was high, I feel like not only do you get the money, but you get a bonus. That's amazing. Yeah, wow. Or stoned and you won. Well, or Nukam was a, who's like not only do you get the money, but you get a bonus amazing. Yeah, wow Stomping you one or newcom was a newcom who's the guy that pitched on LSD was a newcom. Oh Right, I mean that should be an extra you should get extra That's back in the 80s and they were all It is not easy. So what's going on right now with the players you sent me you tagged me in an Instagram post. One of the Steelers was ranting on his Instagram story.

Starting point is 00:27:26 Yeah, I don't see. Yeah, I think it did. Yeah, what's going on right now? So it's complicated. But this is what's going on. So you have these political, you have political will at hand. On the one hand, you got the NFL, right? And they just want to grind the players.

Starting point is 00:27:39 They always tend to win. The NFL always tends to win against the Union. And partly, the reason is because, you know, there hasn't been an unseating of a union member in years. There's never been a vote to unseat what's going on. So what you see is a comfort level between, this is my opinion, a comfort level between the players association, ownership to where I don't think they're in a position to fight like they're supposed to fight and negotiate. I think it's become too comfortable.

Starting point is 00:28:12 And you'll see that if you look at Troy Vincent and look at that guy up later on, Troy was the guy who started with the NFL PA and now he's with the NFL. So there's a clear example of, well, wait a second, how does that work? And so. So there's a clear example of, well, wait a second, how does that work? You know? And so I think there's a mass,

Starting point is 00:28:29 but the issue is education. There's a mass discontent between players and what the union's negotiating right now. So there's no rule against that. There's no rule against going from one to the other. I mean, that's like somebody, you know, being the CEO of, you know, a major pharmaceutical company

Starting point is 00:28:45 and then going and being ahead on the FDA. Yeah, yeah, something like something doesn't smell right, but there's nothing illegal about that. It's kind of like, you know, when it's a prosecutor, a prosecutor for years and years prosecutors and all of a sudden he flips himself and becomes the best defense attorney out there. Really?

Starting point is 00:29:01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so much shit. Wow, very interesting. So how long have you represented players for? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh my God, that would be the next best thing to be a pro athlete, or maybe even better, would be to do that. How the hell do you even get into that? So I think there's two routes. I personally, I mean, my story is I think unique in that I never wanted, I never wanted to be an agent.

Starting point is 00:29:36 I never wanted to be a sports agent. I mean, going through, I was blessed enough to have a great college experience. We had to, the Rose Bowl was there, the Citrus Bowl, we got our asses kicked by Peyton Manning, but we had some successful, some successful athletes there and they got drafted, really, really high. And the way it worked for me is that a couple of my former teammates

Starting point is 00:29:56 literally called me and was like, look, we don't like, you know, we don't like our agent, we don't trust them, or a couple of other teammates come, like, hey, can you get me in the league? I know that you live right next to Steve Mary Uchi because at the time, this twin mooch was coach in the Niners. And for me, it was a joke. I'm like, yeah, I'll call Mooch.

Starting point is 00:30:10 Like, I don't care. So I call Mooch and talk about, hey, a couple of my friends are really good and they should get in a camp. And there is this awkward silence on the phone. I've always been cool with Mooch, like great guy. There's this awkward silence on the phone. And he goes, are you fucking calling me about getting some fucking players in my fucking camp?

Starting point is 00:30:30 And this is a guy where he's always been nice to me, like my brother went to school with Adam one of his kids, like he offended him. Yeah, and I'm like, oh fuck, like I'm sorry, like he's like, no, no, I'm sorry, he's like, I deal with fucking agents all the time. And I'm sorry, like he backed up, he's like, you don't know the fuck you no, no, I'm sorry. He's like I deal with fucking agents all the time and I'm sorry Like he backed up. He's like I you don't know the fuck you're talking about I can tell

Starting point is 00:30:50 Let me tell you how this works. There's only you know I have a limited fucking roster going in a camp like we spend hours trying to figure out how we're gonna get the most competitive camp Out there and so for you to just call By the way, I haven't played in two years. Yeah. It's like it's fucking no. It's a fucking no. He goes, but he goes, but if you want to try to get him on an arena scene, this is when the arena seems really good. Like saber cats were awesome for a number of years, you know. They'll look, if you want to get, if they get on an arena team, I'll take a look at him next year. And so actually, I called the

Starting point is 00:31:22 saber cats and I called the Chicago Rush. Long story short, they both get on a team. Now Moot still didn't ever let him in a camp. But what happened with the Saber Cats is I got introduced through my former roommate and teammate Kevin Buck to Rashid Davis, Rashid ended up playing with the Chicago Bears for seven years. He just he balled out, didn't have an agent. I happened to be there. He saw I was cool and that's how it started. So that's how I broke in. It was too pure accident. Wow, wow.

Starting point is 00:31:48 And then in your, and basically what makes an agent, a good agent versus an agent that's like shit, like what makes you good? Yeah. There's, there's, there's, and are you really good? I mean, I still don't know it. Jerry still out.

Starting point is 00:32:01 I sent him a, so the way this whole thing started, I didn't tell the guys this. So I'm watching XFL, XFL just started up, right? So I'm watching it. So I'm watching it. And our mutual friend, Marquette King, I met Marquette through win. It was one of his athletes, he represents.

Starting point is 00:32:17 Now I know Marquette just came off of some of the best NFL. I mean, he's one of the better, he was one of the better punters in the league the last couple of years. Top five. Yeah, now I see him the better, he was one of the better punters in the league the last couple of years. Top five. Yeah, and now I see him on XFL, so I sit in a text message this guy. It was happening.

Starting point is 00:32:30 No, I say go, are you that shit even agent? Yeah. And I get this fucking rant. And then it's freezing out of him. You do, it's a hell of an NFL. They don't call the NFL for nothing. There's a lot of L's in the NFL. I'm gonna tell you.

Starting point is 00:32:44 But we could talk about the Marquets. Yeah, we'll go, we'll get there in a minute. What makes you a good agent? I think if you had to create some sort of litmus test, obviously number one is like what kind of contracts you've been negotiated. And not necessarily that you negotiate the top contracts is when you've been put in a really shitty situation,

Starting point is 00:33:01 how did you fare? And I think that would be the best way to judge what a good agent is. Give me an example of that. One of you have been put in a situation and you probably saved the guy or gave him some air. Sure, sure. I don't know if you guys follow a lot of

Starting point is 00:33:17 a college footballer, not a bit. Chris Brown, it was a really, really good running back. I was a university Colorado, played for the Titans for five years and then Houston, Texas for a couple years. So eight year back, he was on the Heisman Watch list. That year Larry Johnson was the only running back that got drafted ahead of him, right? And so he was having a tremendous career with the Titans.

Starting point is 00:33:35 He had had 1100 yards in like 11 games. Heard his toe. And in the NFL, it's literally what have you done for me lately. It doesn't matter if you got 1,000 yards last year. If you're not in a contract, it doesn't me lately. It doesn't matter if you got a thousand yards last year. If you're not in a contract here, it doesn't fucking matter. It doesn't matter. And so as a young agent, I literally, this was kind of like first big name.

Starting point is 00:33:52 He was a starting running back because the first big name I could do a deal with. And so we get to the free agent opportunity. He had heard his toe, it was got like 800 yards. And I literally called the Titans thinking I'm gonna do maybe a 14 to 15 million during teed type contract where it's maybe looks like 40 million in the media type shit. And they go, uh, when, uh, well, you know, he's an eight 50 back. Like he's, I mean, he's run of the mill. Like we're not going to offer any big money

Starting point is 00:34:18 here. And I go, man, this isn't, this isn't good. And so I let Chris know like, hey, what's the offer at? And I said, well, it's like 300 grand of sign and 700 to play. It's only a box. And he goes, oh hell no, you know, huh, uh, I'm not doing that. And so when I started calling around the league, the issue was there was an injury prone concern

Starting point is 00:34:40 because of the injury. And so in that context, you have to do a prove it deal. You have to show that you're healthy and that you can maintain yourself for 16 games. Now as an athlete, you don't wanna hear that. As a running back, who by the way was, you know, back then, they went to John Madden, put you on the horse trailer, he was on there.

Starting point is 00:34:55 I mean, it was a hot running back just a year before. He's not trying to hear that. So I got put in a really shitty situation. And now he's thinking, well, did your young, maybe just don't know what you're doing. And so this went on to where it got to the point, you never wanna do a deal after the draft as an agent, a free agent deal, you never wanna do that. Because you never know in that war room

Starting point is 00:35:16 and a blink of an eye they could say, hey, you know what, we like that other running back, fuck Chris. And so we're getting towards that point and I knew that you can't do a deal after that. So it's like Chris, we gotta do this deal. Like no other team is out there, okay? I'm promise you, no, we're not doing it.

Starting point is 00:35:32 And this is the circumstances. Coach Fisher was a USC guy. He had Norm Chow, who was a USC guy. At the time he had Reggie Bush and Linda White over at SC, right? And so I was kind of worried. I'm like Chris, they're offering this, but you never know what's gonna happen after that.

Starting point is 00:35:47 Well, yeah, it's fine. After the draft, when they don't draft for running back, we're gonna do a deal. I'm like, all right, so sure enough, draft day comes, boom, Linda White, drafted by the Tennessee Titans. I like, oh, the worst possible scenario, all right? Man.

Starting point is 00:36:02 So guess what, I call him to do that 300, science, 700,000. But now they're like, yes, see you later. You're interested. Go fuck yourself. Yeah. Yeah. No crickets.

Starting point is 00:36:11 I don't get any calls. And at this point, Christar's blowing them up. I'm like, what are they saying? And I'm saying, ah, they're thinking about it. I would call this sweat and bull. It's gonna fuck away. I would call this a bad situation, right? It's a shitty situation. And so, luckily at the time, I, so remember I said I this a bad situation, right? It's a shitty situation.

Starting point is 00:36:25 And so, luckily at the time, so remember I said I had Rashid Davis, who was with Chicago Bears, that GM at the time was, I built a friendship with. And he was guiding me as to what to do. In fact, every once in a while, he'd helped me as to perhaps they were looking at

Starting point is 00:36:41 this young kid over here at this known-name college you might want to take a look at that. So, you develop relationships and business relationships without the league, that's how it goes. And so I call, I start drinking. I'm not going to lie. I was like, I was like, dude, I'm going to lose Chris Brown. I'm going to lose my opportunity to like show that I know what I'm doing.

Starting point is 00:36:58 And so I call him and I go, look, this sucks. I don't know what to do. He's like, what's your problem? Well, the Titans don't want Chris. Nobody wants Chris. He's like, what's your problem? Well, the Titans don't want Chris. Nobody wants Chris. He's like, oh, he's like, what? He needs to go. I'm like, no.

Starting point is 00:37:11 They don't want him anymore. And he's like, okay, all right. Well, give me a call in a week if you don't get, hear anything. And at the time, thank God that within that week, Lindell White came to camp and he was like, three bills. He was fat.

Starting point is 00:37:24 Oh shit. He was fat. And he wasn't able was like three bills, he was fat. Oh shit. He was fat and he wasn't able, he couldn't pick up the offense, couldn't pick up the blocks. And so I get a call from the Titans, go, hey, we'll do that deal. Oh, and so I can take a brief, I call Chris, hey, they're gonna do that 300, you know. Fuck that.

Starting point is 00:37:39 You see that? That was a one. Yeah, fuck that. I'm like, oh my God. So now I'm on my fifth martini of the day and I call the GM over there with my friend and I go, they don't want, he's like, he's got to do that deal.

Starting point is 00:37:52 I'm like, what is he want? And I'm like, he wants more money. He's like, okay, he's like, I don't really like the Titans either. I'm like, okay. He's like, all right, this is what we're gonna do. I'm gonna do this for you, but you owe me. Okay, okay, please tell me, do tell. So he's like, here's what you're gonna do. I'll give you permission to speak with the media, okay? I don't know who you know, but you're gonna have to

Starting point is 00:38:14 find someone. And I will give you permission to let me know that we're interested in Chris, and we're gonna visit Chris. Oh, that's gonna get his values. And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna call over there because I hate that MF over there. And I'm just gonna kick under the tires. I'm just gonna see how he is, how he is as a person. And it's like, when you never know, like maybe I'll change my mind, I'm not sure. But I'll tell you what, my mind's gonna be made Sunday night.

Starting point is 00:38:37 It's Thursday, good luck. So, I call Chris, well, hey, here's the deal. Like, you know, they say they're gonna visit you. It's not real. I'm gonna speak to some people in the media. I'm not necessarily sure it's real, but just know that this is the only shot

Starting point is 00:38:53 I can do to try to pick up this contract, move the money. And so, my friend calls over there, I call Tennessee. What do they want? They go literally like, okay, what do they want? I mean, what are they gonna offer? Two million? Two million? Like, come on.

Starting point is 00:39:08 Yeah, well, I mean, Chris wants to be in Tennessee, but yeah, I mean, look, it's a good system over there. And, I mean, yeah, at least two, like that's fair, one year two, not one year one. And sure enough, in the meantime, I get a call from Chris, going, dude, Chicago's interested in me. It's the funniest thing he had.

Starting point is 00:39:27 I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I told you that I was gonna do that, but the media is so powerful, media is so powerful that literally, the heat thinks, so I didn't remind him, like, dude, no. No, that wasn't real. No, no, and let's do this deal. By the way, the Titan just raised the deal,

Starting point is 00:39:43 almost a million, it was 1.85% like that. We ended up settling on. But so there's an example, then we got the deal deal. By the way, the Titan just raised the deal almost a million is 1.85 or something like that We ended up settling on but so there's an example then we got the deal done So there's an example that's me making a difference. Yeah, it's like walking into a bar with your attractive female friends It's so that other women think that you're you know Never had to do that I would think too, what is the scariest moment for you as an agent where, because I would think hanging out, and I've been with you plenty of times hanging out with athletes, what has been the scariest moment for you where you may have lost everything you've built for yourself

Starting point is 00:40:25 because you're fucking hanging out with these guys. I know you've probably been real close a few times. Yeah, I would say, uh, fuck. Do you guys remember Pablo Sandivall and the whole Santa Cruz issue? I don't know if you guys remember this, but here's how it went. I'll speak to this and hopefully it'll work out. But so Pablo injures his hammate, breaks his hammate bone, which is a very common injury in baseball players

Starting point is 00:40:50 because it's the bottom of the bat, you just break that thing off. So he was rehabbing and he was doing a great job. And so right before he got back on to his rehab, and I forget and Fresno or something like that, we came back to, we kind of celebrated these healthy again. And this was on there, by the way,

Starting point is 00:41:04 this was a even year. It was the year he won the World Series MVP, but this is prior. And so we decided that my mom had a great little spot at C-Scape up in a nap toss, right? A little beach house. So I'm like, man, let's just hang out and have fun because after this, you're back on the grind.

Starting point is 00:41:23 So cool. So I actually, I let my mom, hey mom, we're gonna go up there and hang out and have fun because after this, you're back on the grind. So cool. So I actually, I let my mom, hey mom, we're gonna go up there and hang out. And he's like, cool, enjoy it. We go there and let's just say shit went down. There was, there was some party in and one thing led to another and not to get into too many details, but yeah, that's real big. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:41:44 Yeah, let's just say, let me start. Let's just imagine what kind of party we imagine here. We imagine like a birthday party for a bunch of 13 year olds. Yeah, yeah. It's like, we were getting down like Charlie Brown. Yeah. And that's fine. That's okay.

Starting point is 00:41:57 And so the next day, it's eight in the morning. And what I would do, and I don't care because we don't have that place anymore, so I'll tell you guys, I mean, what I would do, because it was kind of like a hotel, it's a hotel condo, so you could literally order room service, it was awesome, it was awesome, you could order room Mr. But you own it, right? So what I would do instead of doing the dishes, I would take a garbage bag, and I would just throw the dishes, throw whatever robe, whatever, just throw it, and just throw it in the trash, because they'd be reset. So I'm hung over, it's eight in the morning, I want to make sure that Pablo gets to practice

Starting point is 00:42:26 on all that shit. So I'm with this garbage bag and there's like, it's like a robe and dishes and clothes like just towels and I'm evidence basically. Well, basically, that was a nice way to say that like basically all the evidence that got in the trash bag. So DNA everything is held for. I fuck I walk out I walk out and two guys like like not not in uniform just to do like are you are you are you 44 you know are you my cat yeah he's like what is that I'm like it's just trash I'm gonna throw trash away like and here's the rules on you know once you throw something in the garbage,

Starting point is 00:43:05 it's no longer yours, right? So, you know, they can take a look. Well, they took a look. And there was robes, there was towels, like, did anything go on over here? And we'd like to talk to you. Yeah, I'm like, what do you talk about? Like, talk to you.

Starting point is 00:43:18 Well, Pablo is Santa Vall on there. I'm like, yeah, like, what's the problem? He's like, look, no big deal. I'm Officer Sohn, so. Oh, deal. I'm officer so-and-so. Oh, yeah. I'm officer so-and-so. We just like to come down to the, we just want you to come down to Santa Cruz

Starting point is 00:43:32 and to please depart. We just want to have a quick conversation. No one's in trouble. Nothing's going on. Is it like a dead hooker? Yeah, it's going to be a good deal. I haven't had that problem yet. So I'm my heart's starting to skip.

Starting point is 00:43:43 And now, like, yeah, the optics of me having, you know, now in hindsight it's like, oh, like fuck, right? Yeah. And so I come back and I'm like, Pablo, I think his brothers are too. I can't remember. It's like, did anything happen that was like, not okay last night?

Starting point is 00:43:58 Everything's cool. Not, not, not, we're good. We're good. I'm like, all right, well, apparently we're not, because there's two police officers out here. Now they're asking us to come down to the police station and we should probably go.

Starting point is 00:44:10 Like we'll probably go and I'll have time to figure this out. So I'm driving, I am freaking out. I'm texting at the time he's a judge now, but at the time one of the top criminal defense attorneys around. And I'm texting 911 like call me. Well, this dude, this attorney, he's in a murder trial. He's in a murder trial.

Starting point is 00:44:27 Defending this guy, he looks at his phone and goes, you know, judge, give me a second. I say, when what's going on? Like I'm in the middle of a murder trial, like dude. This is what's going on. We're traveling with Pablo Santaval. We're traveling to the police station. I don't know the fuck's going on,

Starting point is 00:44:41 but you need to get here. He's like, okay, he goes back, goes to the judge judge. I'm sorry, you're a giant's fan. He's, yeah. I don't know exactly what's going on, but my friend never does this. And he needs me right now. So he calls his, you know, puts a pause on the on the murder trial and shoots up there and goes, dude, do not say a fucking word, right?

Starting point is 00:45:01 So we go to, we go to police station and we start right there and I go, you know what? And he's like, dude, just say, say you gotta go, say you'll do it tomorrow. So we go there and the police, the police are down there and I go, you know what? Pablo has to get to practice. We're not being arrested.

Starting point is 00:45:18 And so why don't we just do this tomorrow? You know, if there's an issue, like we can handle it. And the dude goes, he goes goes he looks at me is like well You're fine. He's like, but if he leaves we do have an arrest him and we're being cool with you right now So either you come in and talk with us or arrest him right now, which is not gonna be good for anybody. Oh, wow No, it's a good. Oh fuck so at this point my my heart is by the way, I'm hungover. I probably had like two hours sleep My mouth is dry. I'm like what are we doing? So I'm like, okay? Well, let's hungover. I probably had like two hours sleep. My mouth is dry. I'm like, what are we doing?

Starting point is 00:45:47 So I'm like, okay, well let's go. So as we're walking up, I'm telling Pablo, like do not say a word. I don't know what happened and you know, whatever happened, just don't say anything. So my career is flashing in between my, you know. Yeah, 100%. By 11 o'clock, it was 8 a.m.

Starting point is 00:46:04 By 11 o'clock, we're three hours there, the attorney hadn't got there yet. I, you know, now it's, you know, my partner is going, hey, Sabian's blown up my fourth fucking Pablo. And now the media is like, what, you know, what, start, like what's going on? I forget what, there's always like this one, there's always one media person that is like,

Starting point is 00:46:21 I don't know if they're like part of the CIA. I don't know how it works, but there's always one. Yeah. And sure enough, there was one person from, I think it was from the Merc, probably the Merc, that they had a beat on this thing, that something was going on. They didn't know what was going on, but someone's going on. So finally, we were, my attorney, the attorney comes and, and they, he goes, look, you know, Pablo.

Starting point is 00:46:46 Did anything happen that was not okay? It's okay, like you need to tell us and mind you, Pablo was going, everything, no, I didn't do anything, I didn't do anything. And finally, I was like, Pablo, it's okay. If you, you know, did something, but we need to know right now if something happened, you know, he goes, Yeah, maybe. I go fuck.

Starting point is 00:47:15 Fuck. So so at that point, it's like look, no mind it. I don't know like Pablo ostensibly, you know, this could traditionally there's a lot of money grabs out there with athletes. So regardless of what would happen, you know, at the end of the day, there's not a, there's not a, there's not a bad bone in Pablo's body. I mean, he's a fun-loving happy guy. But in the context of what was going on, it's saying good, this ain't good.

Starting point is 00:47:38 And so what we agreed to that day was, I am the one that got interrogated, and Pablo got interrogated a little bit and then a whole investigation went through and he got cleared. But that was a really, really, really tough situation. The tougher situation is by four o'clock I was done and we had to actually, we had to sneak Pablo out the back door, go in a different car, get him going because there was a couple media out there.

Starting point is 00:48:04 Well, that night I go to visit my mom and she goes, how's Santa Cruz? How's C-Scape? And literally the news is flashing that Pablo Santaval gets accused of sexual assault. He's on it to you. I jump in front of the TV, go, oh, everything was great, everything was cool.

Starting point is 00:48:18 She knows you were with him, right? Yeah, so not only was I like, saw my career flashing in front of my eyes, I also see my, I don't want my mom out of me. I mean, I can, you can do anything. You get your mom out of you, that ain't good. Yeah, that's not good. I hope, how big of a percentage of your job would you say is managing that kind of shit versus

Starting point is 00:48:34 the signage? 90? Well, think about it. Well, how often does it, how often does a contract come up, man? I mean, and then, you got four years till you do your first, your second real deal, right? So the rest of the time, you're just like, you're managing, you're managing. And that, yeah. And it's, it's like I said, NFL, L's, you know, because the stories, well, talk to me a little bit about, you know, one of the, I think I, if I recall, one of the

Starting point is 00:48:58 reasons why you were introducing me to Marquette King back then was I had already started building a social media presence. I obviously am not a professional athlete or famous by any means, but yet I was starting to create this brand around my Instagram. And I think I remember you trying to get him to like, pieces together. Like, you need to be thinking about this.

Starting point is 00:49:19 How much of your job now is kind of switched into that and helping these guys with their social media and stuff? You know, it's interesting with Marquette. You know, Marquette is a really, really talented individual. I mean, he's talented athletically and musically, he's not skilled yet, but he's extremely talented, right? I mean, he is, he's special. But I think Marquette really was a pioneer in this stuff

Starting point is 00:49:40 for me because literally we would spend, we would spend, I remember we remember spending an hour and a half on designing one fucking tweet that he would put. We would argue back and forth as to how to present it, what to talk about, how to do it. He would, but he would be meticulous about this and be on the phone with me for literally an hour discussing how exactly he should tweet this.

Starting point is 00:50:01 And it would be little things like this. We'd have a, we'd have a, maybe a smart comment or something that interesting politically, but he'd go, oh, that's not, that's too smart. People won't get it. People won't get it. And so we literally, we'd dumb it down. And we'd have this, there was this process.

Starting point is 00:50:16 And so I would say, yeah, I would say 70%, or majority of my time, is dedicated towards understanding and branding, which is part of it, getting the athlete effect. A majority of my time is dedicated towards understanding and branding, which is part of it, getting the athlete affected. Now how many drunken tweets have you saved? Have I saved? Yeah, like if somebody had posted, he was about to post a thing.

Starting point is 00:50:35 And then they screened through you. There's companies out there that approached me all the time going, hey, we have this software where any athlete tweet goes through you first. Yes. And there has to be a thing. Yeah, and there this software where any athlete tweet goes, gotta go through first. Yes. And there has to be a thing. Yeah, and there's no, that's like asking, you know, Marquette to put parental controls on his,

Starting point is 00:50:50 on his, you know, on his video or something like, he's not gonna do that. No athlete is gonna, they're gonna say fuck off. Now, how big of an issue is it with these athletes where you have these, these fans or these, you know, these female fans who wanna trap them or get them caught in a bad situation so that they can capitalize. Is that something that you have to really watch out for?

Starting point is 00:51:11 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And depending on the, it's funny, women in general, the concept of groupies, I mean, it's real. And let me tell you how deep this goes. There are what I consider what I label as professional groupies and how I define a professional groupie is this. Not only do they understand where the money is,

Starting point is 00:51:32 whether it's MLB, MBA, NFL, which is usually how it goes, I mean, it's usually a golf, right? I mean, they know, they not only know what sport has the most money, they can tell you who starts, who doesn't start, who's in a contract year, who isn't in a contract year. There is an entire groupie culture that exists to target these guys. So yeah, it's serious.

Starting point is 00:51:56 And how do they play the game? How do they try and trap these guys? What's the deal? Well, how does any woman trap any man? I mean, I think that, no, literally, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I would imagine if it's got a cult like, falling like that and they're almost organized

Starting point is 00:52:13 and that's smart about it. They're even smart about their tactics. And I think that's what sales are looting to like. Yeah, like, how do you even get close to a guy? I mean, he's obviously so many people around him. Like, how do you get his attention? How do they get close to a guy? Sure, so I mean, it's, it's the looks, it's Instagram,

Starting point is 00:52:27 it's the looks. I mean, there's agents, I don't employ this tactic, but there's agents out there, for example, that hire hot chicks to go into these guys, these collegiate guys Instagram, go, hey, what's up? Oh, I'm trying. Wow. Sabotage them and then so they can get back to it.

Starting point is 00:52:42 Yes, sabotage or get their attention? Yeah. It's, hey, what's up? You know, I'm from Michigan, you're from Michigan. Yeah. What's up? Hey, by the way, boom, boom, boom. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:52:51 So it's the same thing. Social media is a platform for a lot of things, a lot of things. And this direct messaging is it's opportunity for growth and business in every possible sector you can imagine, including the groupie sector. Wow. And I mean, it's gotta be scary. I mean, I'm a 41 year old man, I understand how this works,

Starting point is 00:53:09 but you've got, these are, a lot of these guys are kids. Yeah. 20 something years old, all of a sudden they get all this money and attention, you get all these girls' contact. It's like, I mean, what kind of conversations you're having with them?

Starting point is 00:53:20 You're trying to educate them like, hey man, here's a deal. You gotta be careful, dude. Yes, you educate as to educate them like, hey man, here's a deal. You got to be careful, dude. Yes. You educate as much as you can, but it's kind of like people ask about athletes and money. I just was talking with somebody about, but that context. And the NFL and the NFL, P.I. have done a great job trying to educate. That's more recent, right?

Starting point is 00:53:41 But yeah, but you have to still, the point is you have to be ready to listen and at two years point at 21-22, they're not listening to a lot. They're driven by other tendencies, right? And so they're not trying to listen. Well, Mark Ketson example of that, right? I mean, after I posted that, I actually had a bunch of people dropping in my DMs

Starting point is 00:54:01 and were like, I don't know why the Raiders got rid of them. Why did the Broncos get rid of them? And then you had that conversation with me. So what happened at the first don't know why the Raiders got rid of them. Why did the Broncos get rid of them? And then you had that conversation with me. So what happened at the first, what happened to the Raiders? Because he was doing great for them. Yeah. What happened? So it was a change of a regime.

Starting point is 00:54:14 So the Reggie McKenzie was the GM who was, it was, it was a, I thought a great GM. I thought the former coach was a good coach. But for whatever reason, Mark, the owner of the team decided that he wanted to change regimes. Right. And so incomes, incomes grew, incomes John Gridden. good coach, but for whatever reason Mark, the owner of the team decided that he wanted to change regimes, right? And so incomes grew, incomes John Gruden, and John Gruden was, was ready to take things back old school. He want, you know, he wants, he wanted soldiers, he wanted people that would listen to him

Starting point is 00:54:36 and go his way or the highway. And so what he did is he researched and obviously Mark hadette and the concept of what Gruden wanted as a elite connected group was completely different. Marquette kind of symbolizes creativity and disruption, right? And as a coach, you don't necessarily, if you're an old school coach, you do not want those elements on a team. And so he was already kind of on traveling a little bit on thin ice, not only because he was a little dishoved

Starting point is 00:55:09 but even, I mean, look, he was getting penalties on the field for dancing, right? And so as a coach, it's not necessarily that he was getting, that he was dancing on the field, it was getting penalties for dancing. So he saw that as a potential liability. Number one, number two, what happened is he, you know, Grunit did his research. He has a long history with the Oakland Raiders.

Starting point is 00:55:28 And as all of you know, the NFL is quite a good old boy's network, right? There's not a lot. It's a very tight knit ecosystem. And so I think, you know, at first glance, especially with a true advocate from Arcada, it was like, you know, I was really concerned, but what he did is, he did his research and he spoke to not only coaches that were already there or certain people that were going to remain in the organization and asked about Marquette, but he went all the way down to the little people. And I think one of the issues that Marquette has, he wasn't, he didn't always treat everyone

Starting point is 00:56:00 nicely. He had, he has, you know, had a little bit of an asshole component to him, not unlike, you know, Barry Bonds, in a sense, like, you know, if you had too many cleats in your bag, you know, he was gonna yell at the equipment manager. If your balls were, you know, if they had some new balls of their brushin'

Starting point is 00:56:18 gettin' ready for him to kick, he didn't like those balls, he'd kick it over the fence. And I think what happened was, Coach Grudin spoke to those people as well and came up with the new opinion that, hey, you know what, I'm not dealing with this. Yeah, I'm not dealing with this. And I'm not trying to throw,

Starting point is 00:56:33 mind you, I'm not trying to throw shade on Marquette completely, everybody has their other thing. But from Grudens perspective, based on his research, that's why he made that decision. Well, it's an employee, isn't it? So he sends him over to Denver. Yeah, well, he doesn't send them. All right.'s an employee, isn't it? So he sends him over to Denver. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:56:45 Well, he doesn't send them. All right. Let me talk about that. It's cool. Look, Marquette, the day he got released, so the special team's coach was a Italian dude, and then he's got Gruden who has a, propensity to be seen as angry, right?

Starting point is 00:57:00 So the day that he's supposed to report, and because of the new coach, new coach, he can report, the players have to report two weeks earlier when you have a new coach. So reports to OTAs, and he has Lemichello for the Italian special team's coach. And he grabbed a box of sneakers for Gruden in the event that he gets hangry.

Starting point is 00:57:20 So this shows the personality of Marquette, right? I mean, he's a fun-loving good dude for the most part, right? And so he goes up and it's like, hey guys, and Mackenzie goes, hey, come here. He's like, you're not, we're gonna let you go. I'll let you go today. That's how he told him. Yeah, and I didn't think he was gonna be like,

Starting point is 00:57:40 he had a awesome year. Yeah, he had a great year. And so I get this call, it's Markele. Hey, Raiders let me go. And I'm like, what? And I'm probably, I think I'm in LA at the time. I was, I mean, I knew and there was a time when you can, like, May, April, May, you can relax,

Starting point is 00:57:55 especially after the draft. But the problem was, I wasn't prepared for Marke to get released. Like, I just didn't cross my mind. And everybody had kind of done their, doing their due diligence on punters. And so you can't release them at a time when he was being released.

Starting point is 00:58:09 It's not a good time for a player to get released. So they kind of screwed him. Like at least if they were released on Infreadency and March or February and March, then I could have got him on another team. Oh wow. All of a sudden I'm like, oh man, here's another bad situation.

Starting point is 00:58:23 Right. Here's a bad situation. And so, and man, those are some tough days from our kit. I mean, because he was depressed. I was depressed. I remember that. Yeah, because, look, I called the Vikings. Now we're not interested. Philly, maybe, but it would be a minimum deal.

Starting point is 00:58:40 So like maybe 800. He was scheduled to make I think three and a half that year. Oh wow. So it's like, dude, and Philly, and then New York was like, we're interested. And Mark is like, fuck that. I'm not going to fucking New York. And it's because it's because of the weather.

Starting point is 00:58:54 And as a punter, you don't necessarily be in New York. And so I sat there and like, dude, you have to go to either Philly, New York. That's only people that are off in minimum deal. He goes, no. And I had a friend of mine who's a business advisor and mine goes, hey, call Denver. Call Denver. I'm like, I'm like, I don't know, man,

Starting point is 00:59:11 they're not calling me. As an agent, you're not supposed to blink. You're not really supposed to blink, he's not called Denver. So I called Denver and I was like, look, we have an interesting situation here. You guys have a rival. This guy's a weapon.

Starting point is 00:59:24 Can you imagine him in Denver? And I always started thinking about it. I can you imagine our king in Denver? That would be pretty good. And so we lucked out. I, we did a deal that, I think it was like three for seven or eight, which was great at that time,

Starting point is 00:59:39 for the circumstance, when the only other offer on the table was one year for 800. Put him in a great situation. Dude, that's like the punters mecca kicker or punter mecca. You want to get a ball fly. Yeah. So I think that we have a huge win here, right? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:55 No, no, it was the most unhappy, horrible year for Marquette, predominantly because you just didn't get along with this special teams coach. And they disagreed. And what do you disagree on in punting? Well, it's only a couple of things you do. Yeah, so in between those polls. Yeah, so from our cat's perspective, this is from a specialist professional punters perspective. Number one, he had him kicking awkwardly.

Starting point is 01:00:22 He wanted him to kick like a 45 degree trick kick. Oh, he was trying to change way kick. So he was trying to change way kick. So that was dissing me off to in his defense. Yeah. And quite frankly, that's what ended up, he ended up getting hurt. And he attributes it to the coach attempting to change his kicking style, which may or may not be the case.

Starting point is 01:00:40 But the fact is that he did get hurt. And that was true. And to his defense for the first couple weeks of, he approached things the right way. When he complained to me every fucking day that he hated Denver, and I was like, why? Because I don't get along the special team. So I'm like, look, just call a meeting

Starting point is 01:00:58 with your coach and the head coach. So he did. He did the meet. Hey guys, like I just went a punt the way I punt, like I don't like this way They said fine and then the next day the coach is being a dick again, right? And so if the coach said punt 50 yards, Marquette would punt 70 yards if the coach said punt 30 yards, Marquette would punch five yards Pure disruption and and and as unhappiness He was also by the way healing from the right. He had just got a Raiders tattoo

Starting point is 01:01:23 Right Just got a Raider's tattoo. Right? Oh no. Just got a Raider's tattoo? Oh no. So you can imagine like, he's a human being. He was hurt. Yeah. He was thrown. Well, yeah, you have a top five season, you know?

Starting point is 01:01:36 Doesn't make any sense to you. Doesn't make sense to you. Like, in hindsight, sure, what could I have done better all that, but overall, like I said, he's a genuine good human being. And he felt really side-swiped. He loved the Raiders. He still loves the Raiders, right?

Starting point is 01:01:49 And so psychologically, he was dealing with grief. And he didn't know how to express himself more. The only way it came out through rebellion. So he gets in fights with the coach and then, no way, I get a call. Can you tell Marquette to get off his fucking skateboard? Because on social, going about his social media, he was rebelling through two things.

Starting point is 01:02:11 He was actually healing from embracing music. So he would, all he would do in Denver is go to the recording studio and try to work on his new craft, right? And the number two is he'd skateboard to piss the team off. Hmm. And they're like, that's liabilities. Well, not only liability, they just made a $7 million

Starting point is 01:02:28 fucking investment. They don't want to see the punter break his, like, do it in the off season if you have to do it. Yeah. No, are you doing that a fucking skating party? Right. Play pong. Do something else.

Starting point is 01:02:38 Can't you? Don't do that. So lessons learned by Marquette King and why the is in the XFL. Number one, if the coach has pot 50 yards, you punt 50 yards. Yeah. If L.A. is pissed off that you're on a skateboard, throw away the fucking skateboard.

Starting point is 01:02:52 Yeah. And so that's why I think he's matured. I think he's learned a lot. Now, did this break up your guys' relationship? Well, sure. He gets cut. I work with them and he's thinking you know the next season the next reagent your son will just pick him up now we back up though how does he get

Starting point is 01:03:11 cut with a contract like that sure so so you you can release injured so you can have an injury you can have an injury settlement agreement and so okay they they just wanted a matter there okay one amount and then this is how it worked actually they didn't have they they could have them out of there. They wanted them out. And then this is how it worked actually. They couldn't have made them stay there. They could have made them stay there and rehab in Denver. Well, that's the last fucking place that Markett wanted to hang out was a team he didn't, at the time, a coach's he didn't get along with.

Starting point is 01:03:37 And a place he didn't like, you know? And so that's how it was. And string his money along versus just cash him out. And it's like, cash him out, let him go. Now, does that public, do you know how much they cashed him out for that? Well, so the way it works in the NFL is you have one time, if you're an NFL vet and you make the first week

Starting point is 01:03:56 of the roster, your money for that year is guaranteed. Oh, okay. So we just exercised that injury guarantee option. Oh, okay. Oh, very interesting. And then a one person that hasn't made the XFL and that is Colin Kaepernick. Oh.

Starting point is 01:04:12 I know that there's other agents out there and you must have a communication between other agents and information about how things transpired. Is there any insights in terms of how his relationship then it fell, ex-a-fell, all that kind of stuff? Are we going down there? Yes, I want to be sure it's probably one of the most

Starting point is 01:04:32 types. Oh, okay. All right, so let me preface it with this. Let me preface it with this. I'm just gonna keep it real and I'm gonna share my perspective on this thing. But I will say, at the end of the day, what Kaepernick has come to symbolize

Starting point is 01:04:48 is something totally different than what transpired and what the purpose was originally. Oh, really? Okay, and that's what I hold on to, I believe. So one of the reasons this is such a hot topic, like race is, race is electric, right? And there's a lot of issues that we do with race and for a call into ultimately embrace the role, great.

Starting point is 01:05:06 Now, how it fucking started is what kind of pisses me off because this is my perspective. Cause I had a couple guys on the team of that, that you're the Niners. So here's my perspective. Kaepernick is, it's clear number one that he may not be the elite thrower that people thought he was.

Starting point is 01:05:24 One of the main reasons why he did so well that that first year when he was bawling, I think they were like, they lose a ball to more than that, they're as doable. One of the reasons is, coaches didn't know what to key on. And so, for example, as a quarterback,

Starting point is 01:05:37 if you can't throw, you'll put nine in the box and cover the run, right? But with Capron, because he was such a good athlete, and he could run. I mean, he's four or five guy, they didn't know what to do, and that's what confused him. They didn't know if they could fix it on the run, right? But with Capricors, he was such a good athlete. And he could run. I mean, he's a four or five guy. They didn't know what to do, and that's what confused him.

Starting point is 01:05:48 They didn't know if they could fix it on the runner, or fix it on the pass. Yeah. So once they reviewed the tape and realized that he really didn't read defenses, and he keyed on maybe one guy, that's when his... Just figured him out.

Starting point is 01:06:00 Yeah, and that's what happens. Look, with a lot of guys, what will tend to happen is they'll key off tenancies and if you're good enough and elite enough and athlete, you work on whatever their king on and fix that and make and make yourself even better. Right, as an example, Michael Vic, right? Michael Vic came out. They weren't ready for him. He fucking destroyed the first year. The whole new thing. Defenses started to key on it, spy on more and then it changed, but then he still elevated

Starting point is 01:06:25 as a... To your point, so Crapp turned used to be the benefit of Kaepernick. That's the only person he key on. Back there, that's a perfect example of Vic. Back in the day, it was algae crumpler. Algae crumpler, I remember the tie-dent, his tie-dent would ball. It's because he would only key off algae crumpler. And so once you realize that, they started shutting them down. And let's just realize that they started shutting them down. And let's just say that, look, Cap didn't always have the best relationship with the receivers and all that because of this scenario.

Starting point is 01:06:52 He didn't, he wasn't throwing accurately, right? So there was disruption. And then that coach comes in, Capernick is not doing well. And so he gets, he gets benched. He gets benched as the starter and blan for blan, gathered, like, come on, like, come on, like, like, blan, the sherry's a great guy, not gonna leak quarterback, right?

Starting point is 01:07:15 But now he gets benched. Okay, so now the first game he sits on the bench, right? And then the second game is like, come on when he starts, when he does this kneeling, okay? So look, understanding all that context, now you make the decision as to what really transpired. Right, am I a disgruntled fucking player who is crying because I'm fucking sitting on the bench,

Starting point is 01:07:34 or am I really about this movement? You find a different purpose or whatever, or just a way to end. Yeah, exactly. And so that's what I personally, I'm not saying it's this or that, I think it's this and that with this being more disgruntled player, right?

Starting point is 01:07:49 And to the point, I think that Trump has a whole thing against the NFL. I mean, shitty one. He won an antitrust suit for $1 against the NFL. He hates, you know, so he's got, he's got personal shit with the NFL. But I think what was brilliant with Trump is that he took advantage of what happened. But I don't want to get too off point. The point is he's got personal shit with the NFL, but I think what was brilliant with Trump is that he took advantage of what happened.

Starting point is 01:08:05 But I don't wanna get too off point. The point is he's disgruntled and then he kneels. And I don't think he necessarily even knew at that moment exactly what he was kneeling for. And in context, I think that his girlfriend at the time was kind of a social rights activist, right? And I think there was discussion and dialogue. And I think personally, there was more driven,

Starting point is 01:08:26 it was never about, you know, against America or anything like that. I think that was bullshit. That was, that was lost in translation. Oh yeah, both sides played it to their, always against the troops. Oh no, they're not against from my, that's fucked up.

Starting point is 01:08:38 And then true story behind that. And this is a little bit of irony is, I believe, I was told that he actually spoke with an army ranger about doing it. He actually was concerned, yeah, I heard that too. I heard that he talked to it before he did it. He took and talked, yeah. Yeah, he talked to a ranger before and they said no.

Starting point is 01:08:57 Yeah, because the ranger, what the ranger said was actually, if one of our men get taken down, the family kneels during the funeral. So something like that. So where, so he's like, that's also what they fight for. They, they, they're, you know, our military fights to preserve our,

Starting point is 01:09:12 our liberty to be able to do shit like that. Yeah. So that's actually, that's not against the soldiers. It's actually, hey, that's what we fight for. Yeah. And so, so to his credit, I think, look, from Cap's perspective, he did his due diligence and he spoke with someone in the armed forces and from his perspective,

Starting point is 01:09:29 this was not a fuck you to the flag. It was actually an issue of respect. And so he kneeled out, respect, saying, look, there's a problem. Now personally, I think he was more, he was more driven towards police brutality and racism there than any sort of true statement against the United States

Starting point is 01:09:45 of America, but as you said, I mean, this was taken advantage of politically and Trump with his skeletons and the closet against the NFL really, really took a, really took some heat. And then, if you heard of a, what is it, a victim, a victor of circumstance, or a victim of circumstance, there's a victim, well, I call cap a victor of circumstance, right? Because what happened was nothing that he could predict. What happened is it did start an entire nation's dialogue into racial issues in the United States

Starting point is 01:10:16 and the first and all that stuff, right? It took and ran. I don't believe Kaplanake ever would have predicted that it came to be what it is today. Now, from your perspective, at this point, he's being benched. They figured him out. So, his nickname was Mr. Achilles actually. I don't know receivers.

Starting point is 01:10:33 Okay, so his career may be not looking so good. He does that stunt, blows up, signs a huge deal with Nike. Do you think he made more money doing that? Or do you think he lost money? Because, of course, now he's having issues with getting signed or whatever Do you think that was a smart move business wife considering he's got the big deal Nike or do you think it was a bad move? That's a great question on a number of different levels number one I don't believe playing in the NFL is necessarily healthy for you

Starting point is 01:11:00 And as a quarterback that's smart. Sure look. There's a lot of players You like those hits will change you like those hits those hits will change you and and And as a quarterback, that's smart. Sure. Look, there's a lot of players, like, those hits will change you. Like those hits, those hits will change you. And every year, if you've ever played football, and for me, I can only speak to my collegiate days, which I was known much more for keeping the team GPA. I can play as on the field.

Starting point is 01:11:20 But I'm a greener. Yeah, but I will tell you, I will tell you, that every year in the beginning of camp, you did that one hit where your soul is shaken and you decide whether you're going to play that year. Sure. So, in that sense, interesting career move, and I'm not sure that he left a lot of money on the tip.

Starting point is 01:11:40 I just don't know, I'd have to research since he what exactly the deal with Nike. But quite frankly, he wasn't being myopic because look what he's positioned himself as now or look what's how he's been positioned. He's taken advantage of, and I don't mean that negatively, but he's embraced, like I said before, he's embraced a role as a symbol for racial discontent. Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna say theoretically,

Starting point is 01:12:06 football, dangerous, I'm getting benched to, I'm gonna protest, I'm gonna be this symbol, I all I have to do is talk about, yeah, particularly getting signed by Nike, Nike makes a shit ton of money off this whole deal. It's almost, you could almost look at it and be like, that was a small move. Maybe he didn't realize it, but it turned out.

Starting point is 01:12:23 100%. Right, now at the time, he's also having trouble getting signed and a lot of stuff, but maybe it doesn't make that big of a difference because I think he's still making a ton of money. That's a really good point. Yeah, but he's got to be good enough to at least play in the XFL,

Starting point is 01:12:36 and they're not even looking. That's what I'm confused. It's all the controversy, dude, because think of all the shit that's coming along with him. I was probably asking for too much money, is that's kind of what I heard. Well, so to your point, so number one, he sees himself as a starter.

Starting point is 01:12:47 That was the whole issue with the Niners. That was the issue with other teams at first. A lot of people, I have friends that are like, this is such bullshit. He would have been a starter on any other team. No, absolutely. I don't believe it. And I don't believe it based on his mechanics

Starting point is 01:13:01 and how he throws. Well, not only that, you have first-hand experience. You're representing the guys that are catching the ball from it. Yeah. Yeah, right. What'd you say his nickname was? Mr. Kelly, yeah.

Starting point is 01:13:12 Mr. Kelly. That's hilarious. Now, do players ever negotiate deals without agents? And is that a problem? Is that an issue? Richard Sherman does that, right? Yeah, yeah. So I can speak to that. So issue? Richard Sherman does that, right? Yeah, yeah, so I can speak to that.

Starting point is 01:13:26 Richard, so someone in Richard Sherman's position, don't think Colpepper, I think, was kind of the first player to kind of promote the fact that he was doing his own deals. If you were an elite athlete in your free agent deal, and if you're an elite in your position, and you've had a good year, what have you done for me lately,

Starting point is 01:13:40 you had a good year, there's really not a lot of rocket science to doing your deal. Because what you're doing, you're measuring statistics, and you're taking a look to the top five players receiving that type of money in your position and saying, I want the most or I'm top five, top five. Easy shit. So in that context, speaking of Richard Sherman, I think it makes sense. Like he doesn't have to.

Starting point is 01:13:58 Really, it's that easy, isn't it? He can just compare himself to all his peers. Yeah, for the most part, if you're again, if you're in that situation where people want you and you've had a good season, and there's not a lot to it, there's not a lot to it, but not having an agent I always go to make sure you define what that means. What does an agent mean for you? If it's no contract advisor,

Starting point is 01:14:19 I don't need a lot of people to advise me on my contract, then that's one thing. If it's, I don't need an agent, then tell me what the fucking agent does, because from my perspective, I do a lot, and I take pride in making sure I put that person, that athlete in the best position to succeed, both socially, financially, physically, mentally, all that.

Starting point is 01:14:39 What a great way to articulate, you get fucked up with them all the time, and you just make sure they don't get in trouble, so that's it. Yeah, pretty much, pretty much. It's 90% of your job you already said that as we know that doesn't always work. Well that makes a lot of sense again you're dealing with young kids, your exceptional athletes but I mean inexperienced with life and everything else and you're dealing with big contract, you're dealing with really really smart people, you're dealing with teams and the people that

Starting point is 01:15:04 negotiate for those teams and they do that shit for a living. And coming from someone who's done sales for as long as I have, you walk into a sales negotiation and you don't know what you're doing, they're gonna fuck you. You're not gonna know what's going on. So having someone experience makes a lot of sense. Is that happening a lot?

Starting point is 01:15:21 Are there a lot of players that aren't represented and they're getting fucked in deals? Or is there a lot of bad agents too that don't get good deals? I think it goes back to education and what the agents are telling them. It's expectations. So there's a lot of athletes out there, even elite players right now in free agent contractors that have reached out to me.

Starting point is 01:15:39 And not necessarily, unfortunately not necessarily to sign them, but they respect me. I'm respectful enough with where I keep it real with them. And so I have a reputation to where I keep it real with them. And so I have a reputation of at least keeping it real. And what happens, what agents get in the trouble with is is extending expectation to such a point where they fall short of those expectations and really piss off the player.

Starting point is 01:15:56 And so that's where it's a visceral discontent when the player is being told one thing and being promised $100 million and the best contract offer out there's a million, that's a problem. So their response to that is, fuck the agents, fuck that, I don't need it. Sure, sure. Being honest has got to be a big part of what to do.

Starting point is 01:16:14 What's the name of the famous agent, dude? The guy that gets everybody the fucking... You know, yes. Yeah, I got to fight with that dude once. Okay, so tell me the, what is it? What is the difference? Yeah, well, go ahead. Yeah. I do want to hear that, dude. I do want to hear that. Okay, so tell me that what what is it what is a difference? Yeah, go ahead. I do want to hear that.

Starting point is 01:16:29 I do want to hear that. Well, I want you to talk about him right here. Because what I want to know is what makes a guy to that crazy love. What separates you and him? Number one, he's married to the game and he promotes that, right? So there's this. He's done a fascinating job of promoting himself as being laser sharp and after representation only,

Starting point is 01:16:49 after representation is his life, he doesn't wanna do anything else. He's done a good job there. Number two, he works as Ass Off and Grines. Like he's out in the parking lot and telling players they should be getting more money and he's out there working, you know? He's working still?

Starting point is 01:17:03 Still what? Oh yeah, he's still dude, he's got minions all over the place now. You know, this team Rosenhaus, there's minions everywhere. And so he's done a great job of branding himself, you know. And all it takes is one elite guy really, and he do a good deal with them, and the people come in, you know, the players come in droves.

Starting point is 01:17:19 Yeah. And that's what tends to happen now. It's like the CAAs of the world, like, you know, they've done a great job of branding themselves. like the CAAs of the world. Like, you know, they've done a great job of branding themselves. The CAA is one of the top sports agencies, or athlete and talent agencies out there. And what they've done, it's almost a franchise-type model, right?

Starting point is 01:17:35 CAA is the brand, and then they hire, I think maybe they have 25 or 30 NFL agents now under their hub, and that agent can say, I'm with CAA, and not a lot of, look, a lot of these guys are coming from a social economically depressed background, they didn't go to class, they don't necessarily care, they could, I mean, almost all of them are,

Starting point is 01:17:53 have some measure of intelligence, but at the same time, they just eat the brand, they eat the brand, and so that's what happens. So Rosenhausen has done a great job of branding himself in a certain way. So why'd you get in a fight with him? I fucker. So this is what goes back to Chris Brown.

Starting point is 01:18:09 So that running back I was talking about with Tennessee. He, I mean, Chris was, he was, he was a, should have made, a lot of money. Of course he got hurt that year, but in his year where he was bawling, so Zach, Zach Miller was a, was a Lyman. It was obviously the running back. I tried to approach your guy, right? Yeah, the running backs are very close with lineman all agents know that right so if you have a lineman

Starting point is 01:18:29 So what he would do is pillar would put his rosin house on the on the speaker phone and rose in house and Chris will be sitting next to rose no next to his teammate and rose house would be spitting game of Chris your agent Does know what he's doing and me while you know Chris play sharks nip my toes, when I don't know, I'm thinking about going to the shark. They call him the shark, his nickname is the shark, right? Oh, wow. So I fucking, I get live, I call, so I call Rosenhock. I'm like, motherfucker, if I ever hear you fucking talk through Zach Piller to talk to Chris,

Starting point is 01:18:56 I'm gonna beat your ass the next time I'm at the comma because everybody I have to go to the comma in the morning. Everybody goes to the time I as a horrible experience, but all the agents are there, right? And so dude, if you ever, like if you ever talk to me, I'm gonna beat your up, well, and he goes, well, I don't mean to it's a horrible experience, but all the agents are there, right? And so dude, if you ever, like, if you ever talk to me, I'm gonna beat you up, well, and he goes, well, I don't mean to break up a happy home,

Starting point is 01:19:09 I'm not a home record, I'm like, damn right, you're not a home record. So, you know, it didn't get physical, but that's okay. It all started at a disadvantage. The coal mine sucks, I've always wanted to go dude. Is it boring or what, what's the deal? It is so bad, first of all, it's in fucking Indianapolis, which in the winter, it's just freezing cold.

Starting point is 01:19:26 I don't like cold. So I don't like cold. So I don't like being cold. Number two, if talk about the most concentrated area of testosterone, all miltronous testosterone for like four to six days, it's the NFO combine. Really? I mean, everybody's competitive. As an agent, you have to be competitive. There's only 1900, so a top 10% agent has three clients.

Starting point is 01:19:49 There's 1900 players and there's like 2000 agents. There's license agents that don't have players. There's all the time. There's certain areas on the field or anything. You guys are all fighting for to get access or anything like that. Not at the combine, but it used to be a lot worse because there used to be absolutely no tampering rules at all and nothing established.

Starting point is 01:20:10 So you'd see fist fights all the time with other agents because they're really still the guys. Yeah, it gets crazy. Wow. Wow. Well, that's insane. What you're talking about millions of dollars at someone's fucks, I mean, he plucks a Chris Brown out of your pocket like that.

Starting point is 01:20:21 Yeah, I made a good money with Chris. Yeah. Yeah, that's Brad on the table. And that agents typically get paid a percentage of, I'm assuming the contracts that they sign. So they're in their, your success is directly tied to the success of your client. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:20:34 And it's, it's, it's guided by the collective bar agreement. So an FL agent on the contract, player contract side, you make, you can make anywhere from one to three percent. But then on, on marketing, you can, it depends. I think the market is around 10 to 15. You can charge as much as to three percent. But then on marketing, it depends. I think the market is around 10 to 15. You can charge as much as you want. What do you mean on marketing?

Starting point is 01:20:51 Explain that. So you distinguish agency from the contract, the player contract, the actual negotiated contract. Do you have with the team? Yeah. With marketing deals. Oh, I see. You get a percentage of the team and then there's a greater percentage with marketing. Right. Oh, I see. You get a percentage of the team,

Starting point is 01:21:05 and then there's a greater percentage with marketing. Right. Right. Oh, interesting. Very interesting. So when we see the ticker come up on ESPN and we see someone just sign for a $50 million deal, can we guesstimate what the agents probably making off of that? Well, no, not based on the ticker, because you have to look at what the guaranteed money was.

Starting point is 01:21:21 Oh, okay, that matters more. Yeah, because a lot of the agents, once you're seasoned, you, a couple more. Yeah, because a lot of the agents, once you, once your season, you, a couple of things, you develop a great relationship with the media because of some of the stories that I talked about. And you also negotiate, you try to have a decent relationship with the teams, although it doesn't always work out because what they'll do is they'll, they'll pad the contract so you look good in the media, right?

Starting point is 01:21:40 So yeah, it might have been a 50 million deal, 50 million dollar deal, but it was 10 million guaranteed. It was a five year deal and there's no fucking way that player's seen the last three or four years of that deal. Oh, wrong. No fucking way. Is that common? Yes. Why, why? I don't understand.

Starting point is 01:21:54 Is it because the traded hurt? Like, I mean, all the above, all the above make a, so it's, so from a team's perspective, happy employee, happy employee, they see, they think they can grab the 50 million, right? It's competitive because you want to continue to try to get that contract money. From the agents' perspective, you want to provide the perception that you did this monster

Starting point is 01:22:11 deal, right? And so it's a lot about that. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's really interesting. So then, okay, so let's say it is a 10 million guarantee or whatever, you said they won't see the last three-four years. What would that look like in the hands of the agent? In terms of what they're gathering?

Starting point is 01:22:26 So 3% of 10 million. Oh, okay. 30% so 300 grand, is that right? Oh, that's not bad. Yeah, that's not bad. And there's a big deal though. Right, and for an agent, is that up front money for you right away? Or do you have to get that over his contract?

Starting point is 01:22:36 That's interesting. So, signing bonus, any guarantee, guaranteed, when the general rule is when the player gets paid, you can bill, right? So, guaranteed money like a signing bonus, you can bill immediately. And then during the season, players get paid 17 weeks over the year. Unfortunately, I wish it could be like 34 or 52, I think it would help them. But right now they get all paid within the season.

Starting point is 01:22:59 So you can bill as long as they get the money. Okay. And is it common for you to do that to to stretch it out to help a player out? Or... I tend to try to build at December, actually just one build. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:23:12 Oh, nice. Yeah. Good shit, dude. Very interesting, dude. Yeah, very, very interesting. Yeah, yeah. Good time hanging out. A lot of fun on this part.

Starting point is 01:23:19 Yeah, good story. Yeah, good, good. We'll see how much of a week in here. Yeah. Good, good, good catching good, catching up, bro. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1252: Confessions of a Sports Agent

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