Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1665: How Gyms Survived Shutdowns With Jason Khalipa

Episode Date: October 18, 2021

In this episode, Sal, Adam & Justin speak with former CrossFit champion and gym owner Jason Khalipa about the challenges of running gyms during shutdowns and ongoing uncertainty. Unpacking the pivots made since the beginning of the pandemic? (1:50) Utilizing their likeness with their license program. (5:25) What were the biggest differences he saw from the various government mandates? (8:22) How did he handle this personally? (12:43) Has he noticed a rebound effect in his businesses? (18:13) How people don’t realize what they had until it’s gone. (21:33) The steep learning curve of digital fitness space. (24:03) What is he most proud of? (28:09) Was he surprised what happened with Greg Glassman? (32:28) Does he believe the perception has changed surrounding the CrossFit brand? (34:27) What markets should we keep an eye on? (40:00) How can the fitness space better communicate the benefits of being healthy and fit? (41:18) How fitness teaches you micro adversity. (46:30) Does he see a business in teaching children to move more? (48:10) The ebbs and flows of building an app. (50:17) The value of podcasting and social media in building a business. (56:00) The best entrepreneurial advice he has received. (59:37) His goal in competing in the CrossFit Legends Invitational. (1:02:15) What brought him to jujutsu? (1:07:12) Did he have a nemesis while he was competing? (1:10:00) The good in seeing the sport transition outside the gym. (1:11:22) What does the future look like for NC Fit? (1:13:31) Related Links/Products Mentioned October Promotion: MAPS Anabolic and NO BS 6-Pack Formula – Get Both for $59.99!    Visit Vuori Clothing for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! Get the App — NCFIT Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth: 1280: COVID-19 – The Death Of The Gym Industry? Global Data Show COVID-19 Transmission in Gyms is Rare Mind Pump #1655: The Best Natural Treatment For Anxiety & Depression Greg Glassman resigns as CrossFit CEO after controversial statements about George Floyd 2021 Rogue Invitational CrossFit Legends Roster will Feature Jason Khalipa, Annie Sakamoto Among Others ‎Effort Over Everything with Jason Khalipa Jacob Heppner Edges Josh Bridges In Closely Contested ‘Crossfit’ Boxing Match at CoreSports: Fight Night 3 Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Jason Khalipa (@jasonkhalipa)  Instagram David Goggins (@davidgoggins)  Instagram Rich Froning (@richfroning)  Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mite, op, mite, op with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump right in today's episode. We interviewed Jason Calipa, very well known ex-crossfit athlete, also owns a lot of gyms. And he talked in this episode about how COVID and the shutdowns affected his business. Now we interviewed him a while ago at the beginning of the pandemic to hear what his strategies

were. So this is kind of a follow-up. Like what happened? How did they survive and how did they thrive? Believe it or not, in some areas, Jason Calipa, very smart entrepreneur, great businessman, good guy, actually did some pretty interesting things. So this is a really, really good episode and good interview.

Now, you should go check out his app. It's called NC Fit App. It's pretty interesting. It gives you exercise and workouts you can do at home. And of course, you can find him by his name on Instagram. Now, this episode is brought to you by Viori. Viori makes some of the best at leisure where you'll find anywhere.

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If you're interested, head over to mapsoctober.com. Once more, mapsoctober.com. Almost a year today when you were on the show, Sal did a kind of a compilation of a bunch of gym owners that we respect in the space. You were the representation for the CrossFit space. That's right. Yeah. And we asked you because it was right at the beginning of the pandemic, we were asking you about how it was right at the beginning of the pandemic, we were asking you about how you were going to pivot. You were talking about how some of the employees that were just not working,

we're going to have to furlough. You were doing some things with memberships where you were allowing people that were going to help support you, that they would be able to credit that towards their necks. You were also in the middle of starting to pivot and do some sort of a streaming service to try and complement what's going on with COVID.

So where I really wanna go is I wanna pick up kind of from there, what has happened as far as your staffing are the same amount of gyms still open, what happened with the streaming? Are you continuing on like, catch us up to where you went from the beginning of COVID? Oh man, that's a lot unpacked. So COVID for our business has been detrimental in some ways

and phenomenal in others. And I know that sounds weird, but- Did a net positive or net negative? From a revenue perspective, net negative. From a growth and potential, I think definitely positive. Oh, interesting. Because I mean, so take for example, our Mountain View gym. Revenue there was very good.

It got turned off and it didn't get turned on for 15 months later. So when you know, in revenue on a location that had five, 600 active members at $200 a month, gets turned to zero. It's gonna take us a while to build that back up. But the long and short of it is over the last year, we have been very, very fortunate

because of some pivots that we did. We've been able to retain key talent. We've been able to pay everybody on the team in some fashion more money than what they got the year before. That was the goal. So if you're a coach at our gyms, you're getting paid more than you were the year before. Like we we increased everybody salaries or everybody's wages. And the reason why I think we were able to do that is one is we got to we got to see who was really bought into the vision and what we wanted to do, which was great.

They got to see that we were taking care of them. We we continued to pay them. And then we we pivoted to digital and we had a few opportunities come up from a corporate wellness perspective. So we did end up closing one location through COVID, like permanently. That was our one on Stevens Creek. And that, that was tough, right? But we made the best, we had to take our ego out of it and say, Hey, what is going to be best, we had to take our ego out of it and say, hey, what is going to be best for our business to keep us sustainable

and removing that location was what we need to do. But we just opened a new location on Friday, in Pleasanton. We just, we took over an existing gym and now we're reopening it as our gym. And so we're kind of net zero there. Also throughout COVID, we launched a license program, which we learned a lot about.

We launched it a little over a year ago. We kind of cast a wider net, learned that we probably should have consolidated. And so there were one year annual licenses. We've now kind of made the bear to entry a little bit higher, moving forward. I think we made it a little bit too low in the beginning. So we launched the license, we rolled out a new virtual training app.

We expanded our collective position, which is B2B tools for gym owners. We really tried to support them. And we opened a new location. So there's been a lot going on. And copper wellness, we opened a new location with that as well. Talk to me how's the licensing work? What exactly is that for other gym owners to license like your programs, or what are they getting in the licensing? Yeah, so our company NCFIT was founded here in the Bay Area in 2008. And we have a few different verticals.

So vertical number one is we own brick and mortar gyms, which through COVID again has been very, very difficult. So that's number one is we own brick and mortar jams, which through COVID again has been very, very difficult. So that's number one. We have corporate wellness sites with a few different companies globally, which again was really unique because what we were dealing with here in California is different than what we were dealing with in Malaysia

or Thailand or Singapore, where we have these locations. So we were able to see what their governments were reacting like. And then we have digital products. We have an see what their governments were reacting like and then we have Digital products we have an end consumer product, which is our app. It's called NC fit and we also have a gym owner app, which is programming and session planning so What the license model was was them utilizing our likeness and the beginning what we said was there was some turmoil that happened in CrossFit and Looking back on it, I wish things didn't go down the way they did, but some things happened with CrossFit.

And we had a lot of demand for people to align with the brand and move forward with. And so we rolled out the license program to give them a company that they could feel like, okay, we're providing them monthly webinars, we're providing them business tools, we're providing them all these different things. We rolled that out a year ago. No, sorry, I want to stop you right there, because did you know that when you were doing the licensing, because there was a lot of drama in CrossFit just about a year ago

or so, and we talked about it on our show a little bit. Did you have the foresight to know that that was happening, and then the licensing deal was a brilliant pivot that a lot of people are going to be jumping ship from CrossFit, and I'm going to capture all that, or were you already in the thick of it it and that just played into your hands? Yeah, so it was a little bit of timing. So we had already known, so we have these collective gyms.

We have a thousand gyms. The only reason why I share that is because it's a large enough audience where it attracts certain people that want more. So this audience, they use our programs. But they want it more from us. And so they were requesting it. They said, hey, we want to dive deeper with your brand. We didn't have a solution at the time.

Well, when we had talked about it, we started incorporating some of this license model. And then when everything happened crossfit, it sped up our timeline because these people in the collective were requesting to dive deeper with the brand. If I could do it all over again, maybe we would have done it a little bit different, but I'm glad that it happened because it taught us a lot about the license model. We originally started out with the low-bared entry. It was $2,000.

It was a low touch point. Kind of provide this variety of tools, but let's open up to a wider audience. As we pursue the license program, we realize maybe that's not what we want. We want to have a little bit more control, a little bit more consistency. So we created better guidelines

that people need to follow brand guidelines and we've reduced that down now to eight formal license partners and everybody else should stuck with the collective position. I see. Okay, so this is actually, you're the perfect person to ask this because you had so many clubs and gyms in different areas

You named Singapore, Thailand, Malaysia. You've got them obviously here in California and other places So during the pandemic governments acted very differently depending on where you were or at least place different regulations and restrictions on health clubs differently depending on the areas. Did you have two areas that really were very different in how you had to, you know, what guidelines you had to follow, and what was the, what were the challenges with that?

Like in other words, California versus Thailand or whatever. What were the two big differences that you saw? The biggest differences was the timing of everything. So like, let's just take China. We have a location in a place called Shenzhen, China. And that's a corporate wellness site for us, but we run it, we operate it. It's our gig.

That got shut down first. Whereas then you started the trickle effects, right? And then you saw Malaysia and then we saw Philippines. And then one country would reopen and the other one would close. And so I think everybody acted similarly. The problem was is that they're all on different timelines. So like we would never know when we were opening, re-closing, reopening, being outdoors, doing

this. And that same thing happened in California. I mean, California was extremely restricting. And we saw our collective or our license partners be able to open. That was really frustrating to see that Jim's, let's just say in Texas or Florida that we licensed our mark to, were able to be open and here in California we couldn't.

And so from a government perspective, I think we saw a bunch of different ways it was handled. California was probably the most restricting that I saw, but the timeline made it the most difficult because it was hard for us to get our grasp around what was happening because you had, we had to be reactive every single time. And that was the toughest part about owning gyms here in California was that you, you, you were closed and you say, okay, now you can be open outdoors. And then all the sense like, no, actually just kidding, you can't be,

you can't be open outdoors. And we had just bought a new tent, and we had just brought, and then it's like, okay, now you can be indoors with social distancing. Oh, you know what? Nope, you can't be indoors, you can go back outside. Well, now I need to go rent a tent again. And I think that in theory, people were trying to make these decisions,

but they didn't actually take into account what impact that has on small business, because it is very difficult to run a business in the first place, and now you're adding this characteristic that's completely outside my control that makes it even tougher. Which market was the most challenging for you? Was it California? Yeah, for sure. By far.

Yeah. Did you take the biggest financial hit too in California? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, now, I should note, though, globally and license partner, our financial implications weren't the same, because those were a little bit bigger corporate contracts that were treated slightly different. Right now we're dealing with the biggest challenge in California is rent. So if you had a location that had high rents, there's a lot of conversation occurring right

now between landlords and tenants about what is out? And there's two different rules of thought here. So this is a, we'll see what happens, but the tenant says, hey, per my lease, I get access to the building, right? That's what I sign a lease for. The government mandated me to not be able to use it. So I shouldn't Oren for that time. That's the tenant position potentially.

The landlord's like, hey, you sign a lease. You're on the hook. I still got to pay my mortgage. Right. And so it's a very, uh, we'll see what happens. So what are you seeing? Are you seeing anything? Are there like negotiating that's happening? Where are some some landlords? Are you having some that are being pricks and wanting to go all the way and then others like, what are you seeing? So from all the people in the industry that I talk to, because I want to, you know, there's something about, I think at the end of the day, everybody's gonna have to take a haircut

of some type somewhere. That's what I think will happen. You have three different types of landlords. Number one, they super fuel empathetic for the situation, and they're just gonna forgive things or maybe push it to the end of the lease. Okay, cool. There's another group that's like,

hey, I get it, we need to settle up 50, 50 or some type of consideration. And you have some, we're like, no, like we're gonna go to court or whatever will happen. Based on everybody I talked to, there's like three different groups. And from the legal exchanges that I've seen, it's kind of up in the air.

It depends. Now Jason, you exhibit a lot of the characteristics of Successful entrepreneur in the sense that even at the beginning of this conversation You have this very positive spin on challenges, and I think that's just the characteristic of successful business people It's like you met with the challenge. I can either be pissed off about it or I could figure out a direction to go I to be pissed off about it, or I could figure out a direction to go, I can't think, and I would love to know from a personal perspective, because here you are, your job and your passion is getting people healthy

and fit. Oh yeah. They're telling of all the businesses they're telling to shut down, they're hardest on gyms, which actually help people improve their health. Then we see studies that show that the top risk factor for severe symptoms of COVID, obesity and cold morbidities, which fitness helps.

Then we see a study comes out that shows that gyms were not major vectors of transmission, probably because people don't work out when they don't feel good, which naturally will happen. So you're met with all this, plus you're met with the fact that you're forced to shut down, you can't help people, even if they don't mind coming in and risking,

and you take the risk of helping them, you can't do it. How did you handle this personally? How did you not throw your hands up and say, fuck it, I'm done, or just lose your mind? Dude, I mean, what you're talking about is highly emotional for me, right? I mean, I'll give you a really good example. We, our business was asked to reshut down.

And I'm, you see this business, you've spent your life's work, right? I started this out of college when I was 21. And your life's work, something you've put your whole heart into, and then something that's completely outside of control shuts down your business. When you sign a lease, you're never thinking like a governmental agency's gonna come and shut me down. You think, okay, I might not get enough members or whatever.

And I'll never forget the way I felt when when new some reshut down businesses in December or whatnot. And then he goes a French laundry that night. on businesses in December or whatnot. And then he goes to French laundry that night. My heart like, I just sank because you just felt like, man, pissed off, but then he had to realize, like, hey man, me being upset, me being frustrated, this situation, it's not gonna help anything, nothing.

What is occurring is completely outside my control and what's in my control is pivoting the business the best I can, supporting our members the best I can, and ultimately staying here in reopening so our members have a place as an outlet. But to say that I wasn't frustrated on that day and every other day when I saw liquor stores open and our gym had to be mandated to close,

was it was very, very difficult. But again, I just go back to this idea like, what do I want to do about it like I had two options option A say I'm not gonna buy by any state and county laws must stay open. That's that's one You could you could go that way. Mm-hmm. Another one is you're gonna say okay. I'm gonna buy by state and county laws and we chose as a business We drew a line in the sand and said hey, we're gonna abide by state and county laws Was that the right move? I think yes, I think as a whole, it was because we took an unbiased position on it.

If we had chosen to take a biased position, we said, hey, we're gonna stay open, but then where do you draw the line on that? And this way, we used a third party to dictate what we did, but it was very, very difficult, especially personally. Yeah, and I would imagine probably the biggest challenges when you finally, you know, you tuck your head down and you go, all right, we'll follow your rules, and then they change the rules.

It seems like every other month, and it's almost like, okay, what am I supposed to do? I did what you said, now you're saying this, and I'm still doing that, and now you're saying this. Like, and for me, it's very frustrating. We all came from the gym industry, and when I saw this, it broke my heart. Now, none of us own gyms, but I've owned gyms,

and I couldn't imagine being put in that position, and seeing them change the rules every other week and it's like, all right. But what do you know, like what do I do? I win the garage and I worked out. What do I do? I filmed videos to help our members. What do I do?

I thought about, hey, what can I do to make a positive impact? Because look, don't get me wrong. Did I have bad days? Of course. But my family and I have been through some really tough things with my daughter, Gain Leukemia, and having overcome challenges. This was just another challenge, and there's going to be more in the future. What am I going to do?

What do you going to do? You're going to crumble up on a ball or you're going to say, okay, hey, this is a critical time. What could we do to support our members and to make sure that we have a business to come back to? I continued to remind myself that and I had really good people around me who didn't allow me to go into that negative headspace because you could so do it and play the victim. But playing the victim there just, yes, the way I handled what you're talking about is saying, hey, if I don't like the way they're handling this, we need to get new leadership in place.

And so maybe that's something I need to pursue better in the future, is that just the fact that they didn't take into consideration what would happen to these small businesses or even now with different types of mandates and whatnot, the least common denominator is like this coach at the gym who's just trying to help their members

and now they have to mandate masks and police who's wearing a mask and who's not. That's very unfortunate that our leadership has put those people in that position. So maybe we need to rethink that position. Yeah. So with what happened, I was reading some statistics actually the other day and it showed that during this period of time, obesity and chronic health issues in general just spiked.

And this is predictable, right? People weren't moving, stressed out, drinking more, drinking more. Yeah. Did you have you noticed the rebound effect? In other words, when things start to reopen, more people being like, man, I don't realize how important moving was,

but now that I've been forced to not move, like I want it, like, did you see that rebound effect? Did you feel that? So there's a blessing in a curse here. So the, we have four brick and mortars here in the Bay Area and those are really good test cases and we are seeing them get back on track, but they're nowhere near where they were,

not even close. Now technically as of today, we still have mask mandates here in the Santa Clara County and other counties we're in, right? I think those are going to be removed soon, which I think will help public perception. But man, the feedback from our members, like even, I remember when we had outdoor canopies, right? And like, our business was taking even a further loss.

And I just remember walking in and just as a woman, just like, she was practically like pleading with me, like, or not not pleading. She was like, just so thankful, almost like on her knees thankful that we had this place for her, that this outlet, a place where she can enhance her fitness that she had been just cooped up in her house.

And when you get those messages over and over for people, it just inspires you to keep building because you know that eventually they'll all be coming back. And I think we're gonna have in the fitness space is like a roaring 20s, like in about in the Bay Area in about three months. I think that coming into the New Year, when public perception shifts a little bit more from COVID around this area, I'm talking in California particular, mask mandates are gone. I think coming into the New Year, we're going to just see it just boom for like the next

three to five years, because people miss that sense of community. Yeah, I like what you said with blessing and curse. We just did a podcast on the effects of exercise and fitness on on mild to moderate anxiety and depression. A lot of people don't know. Yeah. That exercise is tremendously beneficial for mental and psychological well-being, not just physical well-being. tremendously beneficial for mental and psychological well-being, not just physical well-being. Is this something that people are realizing more now in terms of your members, maybe even yourself? Because I know initially when people work out

all about changing the physical, but now that they've gone through what's happened, are you hearing more people say things like, look, I know I want to lose weight before, but I need this for my mental health. This is the best hour of my day. This is, I am so excited to be here. I feel better when I leave.

I mean, we have a therapist that's in a psychologist who's in there and she's saying that her patients have skyrocketed, right? Of course, like a lot of these psychologists therapists have, and people are using the gym as that best hour of their day there. Especially if you're still working remotely. Imagine if you have two parents who are working remotely,

they're at their house, their kids are in the house, especially during COVID. This gym is a place where they could just kind of let their mind be free, listen to the coach, and enhance their body. It's, I don't know, I think for that reason alone, our gyms, I feel like we're doing a positive thing for the community. And I just can't wait for more and more people to come and experience it.

And we need to do a better job, continuously sharing the message to come in. So are you seeing that demand grow for coming back to the physical location versus being at home and kind of going through the streaming? And I know you had to kind of provide that service for people just because of circumstances. But because we speculated initially of it, like there might be some people that want to just stay home now, indefinitely almost and not come back to the gym. But are you seeing kind of a shift there?

I mean, it's a difficult, it's a difficult, so our numbers in the gym are not what they were pre-COVID. Right? So you can say, okay, is it because they're going to permanently stay home on digital fitness whatever they built garage gyms or is it they're not ready yet or is it because their companies haven't opened up back up yet? So they're not community in to Google for example, so that's where they're not coming to our mountainview gym. I would say that I think the future looks like I think people don't

realize what they had until it's gone, and they miss that culture that we created. And now it's our responsibility to remind them of what that felt like. Like when you come in, like, I don't know about you guys, but like, you know, I work out in my garage a lot. I also work out at our gyms every single day and I take class.

When you go into a class, when you go into the gym, even with your, with your boys at the gym, if one of you's not having a great day, not like, but just not really feeling it, bodies a little bit beat up, whatever, you start feeding off the energy in the room. And all of a sudden, like maybe one person isn't feeling it, but everybody else is, and then you start feeling it. After that warm up, you're vibing at our gyms, you see that. Like people just come in and they know that as soon as they walk in the door, everything else is taken care of that. Whereas in the garage, it's not like that.

You can go in the garage, you can feel like kind of beat up and whatnot. And you can have a really terrible workout just because you're uninspired and not ready to rock. But when you go into a place and you're surrounded by other people, I think that happens. But I think what you'll see is a hybrid model moving forward. I think you're going to see people going to work at it at home two, three days a week. Let's just say one or two days a week and they're going to come in two or three days a week. That's what I think or one or two days a week, and they're gonna come in two or three days a week.

That's what I think. I want them back you up. You glossed over something that I did you say that you have a therapist in your gym? We, I mean, like a member. Like, like, like, like, like, like, like a member. Yeah, we adopt that you offer that as a service or something like that.

So I used a sports therapist for a really long time and good friend of ours, but, no, just as one of our members, we have some really unique, that's one of the best things about the gym, by the way, is you have people from all walks of life. I'm my favorite, yeah, that's my favorite thing. We've had a lot of different people come to the gym. I, one of my favorite things about training people

was I got to train executives and doctors and therapists and teachers. You learn from them. So what was this, okay, so let's talk about this digital streaming way of delivering fitness, because it's, although it's fitness, it's very different than delivering fitness in person in brick and mortar.

What were some of the hurdles and challenges? Did you have some preconceptions that later on, you're like, oh wait, it's actually different than that? Like what was that process like? I would imagine that's a steep learning curve. Yeah, I mean, ultimately we're trying to solve a problem. We're trying to help people, you know, kind of. What my whole theory is is like,

I want our business NC fit to represent a brand of fitness that helps people never allow fitness to inhibit what they want to do or need to do in life. That's really important to me. Like, I want to provide them the tools that if you need to go chase after your kid, you can. If you need to go get off the toilet, you can.

Or if you want to go do a climb, you can't. And providing that online is a lot different than providing that in person. Because in person, you can create that conversation like we were talking about earlier. Online, we've obviously we've invested heavily into the app space, That's a different piece. But what we've had to figure out is, how are people actually using the product and how

do we provide the most value for them? And I think what we didn't do well enough and that we're working on now is, how do we show them and track their results better in a way that resonates with them? That's not necessarily a leaderboard and things like that. That's a common in CrossFit. For us, it's how do we show them visibly that they're changing. So, those are things we're working on. But I think what we've learned a lot to the digital space is that we try to bring the experiences from in the gym to them digitally by having on-demand content from coaches that actually coach in the gym. So like we are a brick and mortar business

that also has an online. We are not just an online company. I think for that, we bring a different culture to what we present online, because it's more coach-forward. So for example, our follow-along workouts are done by coaches who actually coach class. And so I think the members can appeal to it more,

because they know how to talk to the members just like they do in the gym. So that's what we're trying to bring to the people. Long time. Now looking at it from the outside, it started off as a necessity. But let's just pretend it's not a necessity. Right.

Do you still think it's a good idea? Do you still think that this is a good direction to go and it could grow you guys beyond what you can normally grow with the brick and mortar? Yeah, I mean, our goal since day one, this is 2008, has always been to enhance people's life through fitness, right? We've been wanting to do that. And more importantly, right, like I said before, enabling them, giving them the tools to be

able to go do stuff outside the gym, which I think is even more important. And we're not going to be for everybody, and that's okay. We're going to be for people who want to put in the effort and want to work hard and the type of workouts we have are more functional in nature. But this app is very important because the available market is in direct alignment with what our core values are, which is trying to get this to the people who are ready to hear it. If we're just in our brick and mortar, we're going to be limited by those spaces. What if you have someone in Missouri that we don't have a location at? I still want to be able to impact them. Yeah. When you look at, when you look at the total, I don't know if you have this data or not, be interesting to see pre-COVID, the total amount of lives that

you were touching in in brick and mortar versus now with the app combined. Are you, do you know if you're reaching the same more because obviously the brick and mortars we've already discussed are significantly, you know, lower and have been hurt because of everything with that. But because you did the app and now you have a different reach, have you been able to track and see like the total amount of people you're touching? I think that we are touching more people,

but I wanna do a better job in touching them, if that makes sense. I think in our brick and mortars, we would do a really good job of community events, really trying to help people improve their lifestyle because we have those coaches. Online, there's a little bit more surface level and we want to do a better job engaging with them further. That's on us. So, at total amount of people, I think it's more. Yeah. Deeper level is not quite there yet and that's what we're focused on right now. When you look at NC Fit and you compare it to basic CrossFit gyms or maybe other brands that are trying to do similar stuff to you, what are you most proud of that you've created?

I think for us, it's a practical application of this methodology. So, like, if you think about CrossFit traditionally, what we did is we've just pivoted it a little bit to be more in line with what people want, which is every day I just want someone to come in have fun. I need them to have fun. If they're not having fun they're not going to keep coming back in. I want them to learn a little something new and ultimately I want them to get in a great workout. I think that's where NC Fit Thrives is having professional coaches that allow you to have a great time. And now that sounds like a CrossFit gym though. How is that different? Tell me how that's where NC Fit Thrives is having professional coaches that allow you to have a great time and Now that sounds like a cross-fidget though. How is that different? Tell me how that's different

I think the biggest difference is the consistency that we provide across our locations So you might go to one cross-fidget and have a dramatically different experience Then then ours so ours the consistency really matters So you know when you go into one Facility of yours versus another one across the world. Yeah, they're all being trained the same way, same onboarding systems, same internship programs, same daily session plans, same daily videos they're watching to prepare for that class, same execution. It's like walking into a Starbucks, but allowing the barista to still have their own personality, of course.

But we are going to train them so, so much that they're, we're gonna give them all the tools to provide the best class on the floor. You will not have these inconsistencies. Now, what is that? Well, you've limited your amount of, like, gyms that you've allowed to have, like, a licensing deal with you. That's right.

So we learned that I think what happened was, is that we brought a lot of people on the bus. And they were all great. Issues, some were more engaged than others. And some wanted to, what we found was that, we needed them all to look similar, feel similar. Otherwise, what we'll have is these major inconsistencies. So we had to create better branding guidelines,

which we didn't have before for licensed partners. So when you walk into them, you're like, oh, okay, this is an NC fit. And we watched the way the coach delivers the product, the professionalism behind them. That's what it should scream at you. And it's not to say that it's, you know, I love, I love what Cross has done. CrossFit has changed the fitness industry for us. So we had to be in control of our own destiny and brand a way that we had control over the product. And that's been very important to us. How was that so different though,

in like CrossFit gyms? It's that, take me through that, because I'm not that experienced with going to do a lot of different CrossFit gyms. If I go to one, let's say, right down the street that's a CrossFit gym, and then I drive an hour into the valley, what am I gonna see that's so different?

Well, you may not see anything that's different, or you may see something vastly different. Ultimately, what CrossFit is, is a license model. So you may see something vastly different. Ultimately, what CrossFit is, the license models, you're paying $2,000 to license the mark. And you can use that mark in a variety of different ways. After a coach receives their level one, they could open up the beard entry is relatively low,

which is phenomenal. It created opportunities like for me, right? But then eventually, you'll also have varying degrees of gyms. You'll have some that maybe are ran more as a hobby. You'll have others that are ran more as a business. You'll have some with programming that maybe is what the gym owner likes, which is, you know, certain specific. You'll have others that are ran differently. And so the inconsistencies, it's good and bad. It allows a cream to rise to the top, which I think is really important.

It allows a gym owner to express what they want in their business, but it also creates some, like we said, some brand inconsistencies. Now the strategy with this, take me through this. Do you have an ultimate vision for a licensing situation where you grow as big as CrossFit eventually with this or is this something you want to just limit to make sure that everything is super consistent?

Yeah, no, we want to limit this. We thought maybe a year or two ago, like, oh, maybe we'll cast a wide net and we learned very quickly that it wasn't the right move for us. We want to have a smaller group of owners, a smaller group of gyms, they're just doing it really, really well. And just expressing functional training in the best way we see possible. a smaller group of owners, a smaller group of gyms, they're just doing it really, really well. And just expressing functional training in the best way we see possible. Now, also means a variety of from programs.

So we won't just have a more GPP program, which is maybe a little bit more complex. We'll have other things like a fundamental strength-cudition program. And we'll have a variety of different classes offered on our schedule, which I think is important. Some people don't want to snatch or rope climbing, that's okay. Okay, so you talked about some of the controversy that happened not the long ago with CrossFit. Now, you had diverged from the brand CrossFit before that all happened. Diverged, yeah. You had moved and kind of...

Yeah. Now, when all that went down, and a lot of it centered around the founder, which was great glassman, when all that went down, were you shocked or was this something that you were like, you know, kind of saw the writing on the wall a little bit. So like, look, there is such a complex issue to talk about. There is so much backstory, but we had rebranded from NorCal CrossFit to NC Fit to be more in control of our destiny and a variety of things especially from a corporate wellness perspective

That was important to us. We couldn't be attached to some we didn't have control over and neither would they want to be attached to some they have no control over it's just business We we decided to unaffiliate meaning like not pair affiliation fees When all this stuff was going down Looking back on it would I have handled things a little bit differently? I think so, but I had spoken to Greg. I mean, when I say countless, I mean countless times. Trying to share insight that there needs to be some level of consistency, some basic business tools

we could provide owners so that we could create at least a framework to build off of. You don't have these major inconsistencies when someone's utilized in the brand because it makes it very difficult for you. Greg didn't really want those things. He's very libertarian. He was very libertarian and he, yeah, was I surprised at what happened?

Yes and no. He was who he was and he's unapologetic about that. And for that reason alone, I give him a lot of respect that he says what he wants to say and he doesn't care what anybody else thinks. And that's his position as a privately held company to do whatever the hell he wants. But as soon as it starts impacting our business,

then it becomes our challenge. Yeah, you know, you've been, you can do whatever the hell he wants. But as soon as it starts impacting our business, then it becomes our challenge. Yeah, you know, you've been, you had started with them so early that you saw the explosion and the rise and kind of now where it's at now, is the public perception or even within your space, is the perception of the CrossFit brand, is it different, is it change, is the energy and mood around it like? It's not what it used to be and it's kind of going downhill. We got to kind of do our own thing. Is this a growing belief in the space? It's a great boom. Explosion.

But what's really unique about CrossFit is that it's three things. It's a brand. It's a methodology, and it's a sport. And that's really unlike anything else they've ever heard of, right? So when you think about like yoga, like there's no trademark to that, or Pilates, or jujitsu. Right. In CrossFit. There is a trademark so you've trademarked the name But they've also kind of aligned it with the methodology so you could be on board with like the methodology of CrossFit But maybe you're not on board with the brand of CrossFit and that's that's that's challenging

I don't from the future perspective Eric Rosa took over CrossFit about a year ago and I think that he's done some good things to start working towards what I was talking about, which is creating some level of consistency, specifically at the affiliate level. He created an affiliate playbook and things like that. That's all I was talking to Greg about. It was just like some kind of like concepts and ideas,

not necessarily rules, right? I do think for some people, I don't know, I'd ask you the same thing, because I'm kind of in my own like, I'm in my own bubble, right? So like, for me, I do think that maybe it saw its peak and now it's kind of settled and maybe I'll seem a little bit of growth here and there, but it's kind of settled. Do you think that? I don't know. Yeah, it feels that way. I think they made their mark for sure.

I mean, we talked about many times on the show, the impact that they had on fitness in general. I mean, in fact, earlier when you had me on your podcast, I talked about managing 40,000 square foot big box gyms with one squat rack. Nobody squatted. Crossfit single handedly got people to barbell squat in deadlift and do some of these lifts

that people just didn't do before. And I think that's phenomenal. And yes, I do think it does feel like the brand has declined and who knows if it'll rise back up. I definitely think it's declined or at least plateaued, but I think the methodology lives on. Yes. And I think that we're going to see more people doing what you've done, which is, hey, I appreciate a lot

of things about it, and I can subscribe to the methodology and I'm gonna take some of that and build my own brand and use it. So I think we're gonna see that kind of, to your point of kind of see a little, like it's kind of plateaued and then see a little growth, I think that's the reason why. And I think as far as it being a sport and it being a brand

I think those two things I think of art I think we've seen the heyday of that I think it's kind of We've seen spin-offs of the sport. Oh yeah, could you like list off a few of those because I know there's been a few I've seen on TV like the grid league you come on that. Yeah, sure like there was grid league that didn't really work that was That was that was that was Like the next FL. Dude, dude. He's like an ASL one. Dude, these guys just try to go way too hot, way too quick.

More, you know, they like rented out Madison Square Garden as a first event. It's like, wow, I didn't even know that. Yeah, but there's other events. So for example, the Rogue invitation, which I'm actually doing, it's called the Legends event here at the end of the month. That's an event that could have a lot of legs to it because Rogue is a major equipment company the rogue invitation which which i'm actually doing what's called the legends event here at the end of the month uh...

that's an event that could have a lot of legs to it because rogues a major equipment company who could pay out big purses and they get a return to some big marketing strategy for that but ultimately some of these other events uh... the do buy fitness championship that one has major funding from do buy but some of these other ones have gone under because ultimately,

it's all good and well to create an event. But if there's no return on the investment, eventually, you can't support it. And so how many events and what could you pay and how many new athletes are coming to sport is something I think about a lot. And the beared entry is massive. So think about this for a second. If you played baseball and you became a baseball athlete, maybe you spend what, three hours a day, two hours a day, training your sport, in college, let's just say, or even the pros, how many hours a day do they train? I don't quite know, right? Very skill specific. Football, whatever, how many hours a day do they spend on their craft? I don't know the exact number, but I imagine somewhere between like three and four hours.

Maybe, right? It's good guess. Yeah. For CrossFit to be good at it and to break from like a regional level athlete to a professional level and actually get a top podium spot to then make real money from sponsors and events. It requires so many hours a day, because you can't just be good at strength training. You need to be good at swimming, running, biking.

You name it, and so you're spending three hours in the morning on endurance events, midday, doing another hour or two of strength events, and at night working on gymnasium skills. So what happens is I wonder if the gap is gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger for these athletes, where you have certain people that have been able to make in the sport and they're thriving, they're making good money, but they're professional athletes, that's

all they do is train all day. But how do you break into that group is the tough part because you can't really have a full time job and break into that gap. No, you know, you mentioned earlier Dubai and I've heard a lot of things about the Middle East and Fitness bodybuilding is getting big over there Submission wrestling and jujitsu is getting big over there. You're talking about, you know fitness type events What mark and you're in so many different markets in the world what markets should we keep an eye on obviously? California the mecca all that stuff. We know that but what about worldwide?

Where are you most excited to see? I mean what's happening? There's a lot of talk about China for CrossFit in particular. I think Europe is a big market. I think Australia is a massive market. Those in particular, mainly for us, I have visibility because they're English speaking, right? There's a lot of English speaking people in those areas.

But I think that, yeah, like China here, you hear a lot about, and the Dubai thing, see, I don't know if Dubai has a massive fitness audience. I think that there's some people there who are very interested in it, and they have the money to support them. Yeah, that makes sense. Right.

So like, for example, the Abu Dhabi championships is a, is a Jujitsu competition. It's called ADCC. It's the biggest one. They pay out the biggest prize purse, but I don't know how many people from Dubai actually compete in it, versus there was just some individuals there who are really bought into Jiu-Jitsu and they wanted to elevate the sports. So they created it. And they spent a lot of money on it. That's right. All right, so going back to the shutdowns and the pandemic, you know, what was interesting to me, and I'd love your input on this,

as a fitness professional, seeing how the one space that could probably benefit people the most during this period of time, where we need to be healthier, we need to have stronger immune systems, and we need outlets just mentally to deal with the stress of all the stuff, and yet being attacked the most by regulators, I thought to myself, boy, have we done a shitty

job communicating the benefits of health and fitness? Because if that's the first thing they go after, and that's the thing that they're most strict about with their regulations, like you said, liquor stores were considered more essential than gyms, I thought, we're not doing a good job at all. Did this cross your mind at all? And if it did, what do you think we could do moving forward so that if something ever happens in the future, where our health is at risk, that they say,

gyms are the place we need to protect and figure out how to get people in? Yeah, I think we need to do a better job. I just think that a lot of people, potentially, in these leadership roles don't see the value because they're not experiencing it. So how do we get more of those people to experience the benefits of fitness is number one? That's a question.

The secondly, I think instantly people think like, oh, you're heavy breathing, so it's worse. I think that's probably what happened. They're just like checking the box. They don't want to have any, I think what happened is you had some people who were like, oh, at gyms, you're relatively close and you're breathing heavy. Sounds dangerous.

Let's take it off. But they didn't think about the opposite side, right? The psychological side, the inc-enhanced fitness, the weight loss, whatever it is. I think they were so worried about eliminating any risk that they forgot about the opposite side of it. You know what I also think is that when you look at the fitness space, it's so scattered and decentralized, we don't have a lobby. We don't, Hollywood has a lobby.

Yes, what industry in California remained open without masks, was allowed to film, was allowed to shoot, while shops were shut down and businesses were lost. Hollywood, because they have political power, do you think the people in our space realized, we need to do something about our political poll because they don't look at us like a voting block or like we have any type of... We need to work on that.

There was a few of those that popped up, some of my coalitions that came together. I don't think anything really moved with that, but there's also major differences between some gyms, right? You have boutique personal training gyms that are one to one. You have smaller fitness centers like ours, where it's like 15 to 20 athletes in a coach.

Then you have big box gyms, but they were all treated the same. There should have been different perspectives on that. And also, maybe it also has come down to taxes too. I would like to think that it doesn't, but if you think about it in a service-based business, you're not paying taxes on the revenue, like you are in a restaurant or in a...

It's a good point. Like if it's a retail, like our retail we pay taxes on, but our monthly subscriptions, you down. No taxes. So I wonder, I mean, but then again, your pain. That's an interesting perspective. I've actually never heard anybody say that. And that makes it, that brings up a really good point.

Yeah, because that's what you want governments making the decisions. Yeah, because there's so much revenue when we lose if we shut this down versus this down. And by the way, that's completely speculative, but it makes you wonder, right? Yes, as a business we're paying our appropriate taxes, but because it is this service-based business, you don't have

the same taxes you would have on our retail shops, right? Now, our retailes are different. But you'd hope that didn't play any way. I think ultimately what happened is you have decision-makers weighing and just looking at risk. I was watching the news and they were talking about getting rid of the mask mandate. This one gentleman's like, it's time. People should be adults, and they wanna wear a mask, wear a mask, if they don't wanna wear a mask, they shouldn't have to wear a mask. Then the woman gets interviewed, we should continue to wear a mask

until every single COVID case is gone, and there's zero deaths. That's what happened. But it's like, that's the reason we've ever done that with any other disease. But it's just not possible. It's not realistic, it's not realistic. And there's inherent risk to anything,

getting in the car and coming here to record with you guys, there is a certain amount of risk. But I think that there's... I forbid you use that analogy. But there's so many benefits to fitness. And I just, I think we need to do a better job talking about you and I were talking about earlier. I mean, dude, think about it.

Like not only die of all these weight loss and all these kinds of things, but just a psychological sign. And then feeling part of a group of like-minded people. I mean, it's just, I find out. I know. One of the biggest wedges I've never seen this in history was this information that was put out that asymptomatic people were like these super spreaders. And so people just lost their mind. And anybody healthy on the street is now potentially like this.

And the media can really mess with your head, right? Yeah. I'm coming from a place where like, dude, I messed with my head. Like, I'll be like on Los Gatos Creek trail and think, oh, you know, according to them, if I walk by someone, maybe they breathe, I mean, I'm gonna get COVID. It's like, well, the media just, it really, and part of that was my fault. And I had to realize, hey, gotta stop watching the news. Yeah. Because it was, it was just shut it really, and part of that was my fault. And I had to realize, hey, got a sub watch in the news. Because it was just, you know what I love?

We talked about this earlier, and this was off air, and you said, why aren't politicians standing up and saying, hey, as part of a way to protect yourself, should get in shape, you should eat rice. And I said to you, I said, well, because nobody gets re-elected by saying it's your responsibility to do this. The only way to have all the answers is to be elected.

Yeah, I have all the answers. Now this opens up something else. People who are fitness fanatics, we take our health as our responsibility. And I think it bleeds into other things. And by the way, study support this. People who exercise consistently tend to have this control, what I can control and forget what I can't attitude more than people who don't because fitness teaches you that,

doesn't it? It teaches you to, well, I mean, I'm not gonna be as big as Arnold, but who cares? He's got different genetics, I have mine, I'm gonna keep doing this anyway, type of deal. Do you notice this with your-? Well it teaches you micro adversity. So that's a good way to put it. So you know like for example, I was with my daughter in the garage yesterday and we're having her do something and She wants to stop with a minute left. I'm like, hey, babe like we could do this like let's get through this together

Like you got one minute left like let's go and just that little, like in the garage on a regular basis or through training, you learn how to overcome micro adversity. And I say micro because, dude, it's not a big deal. If she stopped it a minute early, it's not a big deal. But learning how to overcome that, she starts for David Goggan's lack of stealing his stuff, like callising her mind to start overcoming micro challenges. Maybe you didn't want to get one more rep on the squat rack, but you did. And I think those lessons we learned in the gym carryover really well into real life. Let's talk about kids for a second.

You have kids, and we talked about this earlier about how challenging it is now to get kids to be active. When we were kids, you were relatively fit on accident. It was like a side effect because the only way you could see your friends and hang out was like playing. You're outside of riding your bike to their house. Right.

Now, if the kids are social online and going outside, they're not connecting with other kids. And so we have to find ways of getting to be active. Have you thought about this from a business perspective? Like have you thought about moving in that direction of working with children, or is that just the market that just forget it? It's too hard.

I don't really think about it from a business perspective. I think about it more from like, it's highly personal to me. Like, yeah, it's a dad. Yeah, it's a dad. Like, yes, there's probably a business case for it too, but it's just very, very personal for me. I think that it's a, there's a ton of issues, right?

Childhood obesity, it's a national defense issue, our future. I think that it's a national defense issue, our future. I think that it's really important to get kids moving, and I think that we don't need to make it a big deal. So, at a high level, what I teach my kids is that every single day, they have to sweat once a day. I don't care what you do, I don't care what you're doing. You have to move your body and sweat once a day. Preferably, obviously getting your heart rate elevated and moving through a full range of motion. So, if they want to go jump on the trampoline, want to go play sports if they want to go in the garage I don't care what you do. You just got to do something and I

think that we just need more parents to To also start looking at as a way to bond with their kids too like go do something with them That's outdoors because it's so easy to give your kids and I'm raising my hands saying hey, man I get it. I have a seven year-old in a ten year old. It's really easy to give them an iPad or whatnot. But what's better I think in the long run is going out, throwing the ball, jumping on trampoline or whatnot. And if you, and you don't have to be a fitness expert to get your kid moving through a range of motion, hey, let's squat. Let's try and do some pressing. And when you start to realize when you start doing this with your kids,

as man, there might be some deficiencies here that we can start working towards, and maybe they'll get motivated by it. So I think it's a major issue. It's highly personal, but I haven't quite looked at it as a business. All right, let's take a left turn here and talk about the app building process.

I've never tried to build an app. You don't wanna build it. Well, I was just gonna say. We You don't want to build. We get well We should do to prep us it with that before we start and a lot of mine publishers make don't know this that that's how Justin and I before mine Pump started we were working together Sal and Doug Doug and Sal were building maps in a bulk. We had never all hung out Justin and I were building an app called level up And yeah, and it was what we were trying to gamify fitness.

We were trying to gamify fitness. So, we're talking about right now with kids and just getting people active and moving through this app that was like a competitive game that was, and it was, we thought it was a brilliant idea, but it turns out we're not like tech wizards. It's just a monster. And it's a lot to consider.

What's okay, here's what's funny about that. I've never been in the process of building an app, so I have no idea. I know that apps exist, I use them. We get questions all the time. Why don't you guys build an app? Do an app, oh my God, an app would be so great. So I would, and I don't bring it up anymore

because the answer I get from these guys, it would be me who shut you down. So I'm always like, hey guys, maybe we should let you know, these guys are like, no, let's not. Because here's the cost. It's actually way more expensive than you think. And all these, like what's your experience building at app?

Was it something that was totally different than what you thought? Well, the first thing I'd say is you have to identify a really great partner to do with. When I say partner, I'm not saying like financial partner, just someone you pay, that's really good. And that's hard to learn because I don't know anything about apps.

So one of the challenges is like, if you talk to me about, hey, I need you to go find a good coach. Okay, I got you. What's a good program? Okay, cool. But if you say, hey, how many hours do you think it'll take to build this app? The guy's like, it'll take 10,000 hours.

And I'm like, okay. And so there's a lot of trust that's required when it comes to a development because we are not by trade software engineers. And so finding the right person that you could trust and then also identifying the right person who could speak to the software engineers in their language. What were two critical things that we had to do. Now, fortunately, the first time around, it was okay. Spent a lot of money, learned a lot. Second time around, it's been much better,

and I think we found the right people. Is it a big, what are some of the big considerate? For someone listening right now who thinks, oh, I want to do an app for fitness, what are the big, I guess, big rocks or big considerations aside from? What would you tell them to do it or not do it and why? I think it depends on how much revenue potentially you have as a company. What is your end state? Do you want to in-app purchases? If you don't, like dude, maybe you should just rock it on the internet, right? But if you want

to in-app purchase, it could make sense. But what revenue, what is your total available market? What's your team? What's have a ROI I do think you're gonna get? What really identify the financials, because it's not as clear cut. So like for example, if you go through Apple, they're taking 30% of you to over a million a year and revenue, they're taking 15% of you to less than you.

So you just couldn't sued for that? Yeah, they're getting sued for that. But right now it's 15% of you under a million. Okay, so we're off the bat, 15% if you go less than it. You just couldn't sued for that? Yeah, they're getting sued for that. But right now it's 15% for you under a million. Okay, so we're off the bat, 15% if you go that route. Now in addition, your app to build an app, let's just say a baseline app, you're looking anywhere from 100 to 3,400,000. Okay, so how long is it gonna take,

and by the way, way more than that. As good as saying that. I just, I just said basic out. That's how they start you by the way. more than that as good a say that I just I just said basic That's how they start you by the way. Oh, yeah, so be about three or four thousand. Yeah, billion dollars later But then you also have when iOS updates right for example There was just an iOS update you have to also update your app so there's monthly mate There's monthly maintenance fees and so what I would say is do a deep-dive analysis on and the benefits, because it could be good for some people. For example, we have one. So at least we saw some value, but it's not going to be for everybody. So I would definitely

deep dive on the financials because there's other options you could have. We have a password protected or a different type of system online. How long? How long will it take you? Have you forecasted this? How long will it take you to recoup the money that you spent on it from the app from it exactly not the obviously the rest of your business? Well, I mean obviously if our app grows at the rate we want to it It's not gonna be as long our finance guys have a better idea of that But I mean I imagine play a year I'm maybe maybe I mean maybe a maybe more so what what one of the challenges we have with our app is we rolled this out in March, a new version of our app.

So it's what is that? Six months? Six months. And we had quite a few downloads. The NC Fit app, available on iOS and Android. And we have a, but it was a little bit confusing because we had a variety of programs available and we had the on-demand.

And one of the things we're trying to do in the fitness space is we're trying to available and we had the on-demand and one of the things we're trying to do in the fitness space is we're trying to see if we could bring on-demand follow-along functional training to people's garages. That's not the way people currently consume content in their garage. So we're kind of going against the headwind a little bit. So Peloton has dominated the follow-along industry, but it's on a bike that's very stationary. It's designed for that essentially. Designed for that.

What I was thinking is, hey man, there's people in their garages who have been by themselves, why can't they just mirror me on their TV screen and do a workout with me and feel like they're a part of like a coached experience? But that's not the way most people train in their garage. So what we learned very quickly is that we're kind of trying to pioneer this, and so it

might take some time. And it was confusing. So we had to redo, and now we have onboarding screens to clearly guide them towards what they want to look at. You've been a professional fitness for a long time. So like us, you've seen the evolution of media and fitness. Nowadays, fitness is very popular on social media, Instagram and other platforms.

And when we started, that wasn't even a part of the discussion. Right. Do you see, and I know you have a podcast, for example, do you see what value do you see in that as a business owner? Do you see value in doing things like podcasts and social media to augment or to build? What about for you see in that as a business owner? Do you see value in doing things like podcasts and social media to augment or to build? What about for you personally? Is that something that is an area

that you think has a lot of potential? I mean, I've struggled with it. I'm sure maybe you guys have as well. I mean, the social media thing, I don't know if you've seen the recent stories going on with Facebook, but I mean, they're equating, I'm not saying this,

there's other people that are saying it, that are equating it to almost like a big, big tobacco. Right. And saying that the addictive nature of it, and the reason why I bring that up is because I worry sometimes about how addictive it is for me. And what type of relationship do I want to have with social media? And what type of value can you add in a 30 second one minute clip? So where I think I want to lean more towards in the future is our effort over everything podcast, YouTube, and then use these other channels to drive people there.

So we have good collaborative conversations like this. How was that experience going? Talk to us about that. Because the last time we did talk, you were just starting to take off on your podcast, I believe. And so tell us about some of the, that experience, the things you like,

things you don't like, anything that surprised you so far. Well, I think we originally had what's called a business of fitness podcast, and this was around for a while, and it was only for gym owners and coaches. Which I don't remember. And it was like, you know, a great resource for them. But what I found was like, at some point,

I just kind of said everything I need to say. And like, you can only talk about the same things over and over again. I want to expand things I talk about. Like, I want to talk about coffee with people. I want to talk about an athlete and how they overcome certain challenges. And so that's why we rebranded it from business to fitness to basically put in the effort over everything. That's it.

That's the goal. And so now it opens up a conversation. The podcast is going good, but I need to put more time and attention into it because just like you guys, this beautiful space, if you want to grow something, you have to nurture it. And I feel like I've been just thinking you'll grow on its own, but I need to do a better job of taking ownership and doing the right job.

Oh, talk about that. We just had a conversation. I would say that is probably our keelies heel, right? So when you get to kind of a place, and we're kind of similar places, although our business models are different, where you have all these different heel, right? So when you get to kind of a place, and we're kind of similar places, although our business models are different, where you have all these different silos, right? And how hard is it for you to focus just on one thing

and really go that, how hard is it for you not to like, you know, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, and be trying all these things? Like, talk about that. I used to be a lot worse. I already have like attention, like all of us in this room, basically, I mean, I already have attention problems because I'm very serial entrepreneur like attention, like all of us in this room basically. We just, I mean, I already have attention problems because I'm very serial entrepreneurial like that.

Like, oh, sounds like a great idea, let's do it. And we've had to surround ourselves, I've had to surround myself with people who are much more constructive in the way that they think. They need that like kind of entrepreneurial style, we're trying to be innovative and push the threshold. But at the same time, I think the people we have at the business now

hold me accountable that before we go out and we go do these ideas to make sure that we actually have a system and a structure in place to be successful. And that's why with the podcast, it's kind of been like, it's been going, but I think we need to sit back and say, hey, if we're gonna do this, let's do it right.

Let's make it good. Let's really invest in a space or not. Let's just kind of know where it's at as a business. And so, I think surrounding myself with good people, we have a really great HQ right now and team at NCFIT. Now, being a serial entrepreneur, you obviously have this growth curve like anything else. And I know that when you've done it for well over 10 years, that there's these pivotal moments that happen where either someone gives you this piece of

ice or you learn something the hard way. What do you recall has been some of the best advice in terms of being an entrepreneur that has either changed your philosophy or laid the foundation on how you do business as an owner. I think coming to the conclusion of like, what do I really enjoy doing? And what is gonna add the most value for our business? Like, if those two align, that's phenomenal, right? But just evaluating, hey, what am I spending my time on? What is not driving the best value for the business?

And how do I spend my time on things that I'm uniquely good at? And then hire out those other positions, because I used to try and do everything on my own. I think the secret was, you know, this guy I was walking on the hallway of one of our gyms one time, he's like, hey man, I'm just letting you know

if you hit by a bus, your business is gone. It's just a hobby. I was like, okay. Thanks. Thanks man. I was like, that was the best skills of torque. That was aggressive. Yeah.

And it made me reflect and say, hey, how do I delegate more? How do I build this? And how do I elevate more people on our team so that the brand can grow bigger than just me? So that's what we've been really focused on. And it was because of that advice of treating it more like a business, unless it's a hobby and not making it just about me and me trying to do everything and all that.

What would you say is your Achilles heel as a business operator? As my Achilles heel, I'm a terrible manager. I don't know how to manage people effectively because my whole thing is like, I think that people just kind of, hey, let's go get this done. But people want, people want guidance and direction. They want to know its successes. They want to know what their trajectory looks like. And so no one, I don't have any redirect reports. Like, well, I have one, so the president of our company, he, we collaborate, but everybody else reports up directly into him. And then obviously I have multiple people I talk to on a regular basis, but I don't do their performance evaluations or any of that kind of stuff because I just, it's just not

my strong suit. What is your strong suit then? What would you say is your number one strike? I mean, creating relationships and then creating business deals from that, right? Like going out there and getting a new corporate wellness account, going out there and creating a new strategic partner to put our programming through, right?

So we have channel partners that our programming goes into. So let's just say your gym uses Wattify, which is a member management system, creating that relationship and getting our business into their system. That's what I like to do, and that's what I think I'm good at. So tell us about this competition you're gonna do

coming up here. We've been competing for a long time. That's how you got some of your notoriety. Yeah. So what is this legend's competition? Is it like people who won in the past come together? That's what it sounds like. A little bit of that.

Yeah, it's like, it's like so. So as of recently, things, I haven't competed in jujitsu competition a little while just because of COVID. That's something I'm excited about, but this month in particular is this legend's competition. So two years ago, Rogue Fitness put out the Rogue invitation on it.

If I'm not mistaken, it was the inaugural year. I actually, it was the inaugural year. And they had what was called Legends Competition. So they invited back, I don't know how to describe them. I mean, the best ever, people who have really made a mark on the sport champions, whatever, right? For whatever reason, Rogue felt like these people qualify as legends.

So it sounds to me like if you're a fan of the sport, people would be like a hall of fame. Yeah, people you'd wanna see competed against each other that you know about, type of deal. And it wasn't just so black and white or was like, oh, we're gonna take anyone who's placed in the top 10 and we're invited and it wasn't. That's right.

So it wasn't like, there's some people that are invited for the legends that have never been on the podium. They've never been on the podium. But they have a name for some of them. But they have a name. They've done something for the sport. They've in some way shaped or formed established themselves as legends status in CrossFit.

God, that's interesting. Yeah. So the first competition was really interesting because they pitted it as an actual competition. So you actually show up there, we competed in multiple events, and they had a winner. And so I won that event, but it was, I'm glad this year

they're not really doing it the same way, because the heart of the deal a couple of years ago was like, people are down we're gonna throw down we're in a great time but as soon as we started placing a winner on it which we didn't really know is gonna be the way that it was and we knew there was gonna be a winner but the way that they did it created a sense of competition that I think was was good for that year it was great but this year I think it's better that they just are making it more as an exhibition where people are just going to do events, but they're not going to crown a winner. Yeah, but let's be honest, though.

Yeah, I was going to tell you, tell me, who do you look for to beat? Well, the reason why I think you look for to beat the most. Well, the reason why it's weird is, last time, they set up the schedule. This year, it's on Halloween. So like using myself as an example, I'm not going to stay for the entire event. So I'm only going to go there for like the events on Friday and maybe an event on Saturday and then I'm leaving. So no matter what, I couldn't win. So I liked the way they did it as a...

Yeah, and you still want to beat everybody that you competed against that day. So my goal, my goal for this particular event, just where I'm at in my life, man. And even a couple of years ago, I didn't plan to win. My intention was to go there, look good. Man, I want to look fit with a shirt off or shirt on, whatever, and I want to be competitive. That was the goal, a couple years ago, and still the goal this year.

Yeah, well, it's okay. So this, I'll tell you a story, as I'd love to ask you this. I years ago, when I was managing gyms, I remember I got to a general manager status, I was grand opening clubs clubs and in those days, general managers will, you were encouraged to sell yourself, but that wasn't your main goal.

Your main goal was to teach people under you to sell, to produce revenue. But in order to become a general manager, at one point you were one of the top sales guys. So we grand opened a club and this was brilliant move from the district from the division will present the visual present comes down in pull and picks general managers from the from the division so all over California and says on the

grand opening I want all you guys to go to this club and first place is going to win a thousand dollars and bragging rights so I felt this like oh fuck I get to do this again yeah I get to compete against all these guys and let's see you can be the better. And it got me excited because I love to do that. Do you feel that a little bit from this? Yeah, I do. I mean, I definitely, um, yes, I do. It gives you an idea to train for. And I just need to know where I'm at. Like, um, a couple of years ago, I was even in a different headspace when I won it, where, so I stopped competing professionally and CrossFit in 2016, so when my daughter got sick,

I stopped competing professionally. I then didn't compete again in any CrossFit event, well, except for like little team stuff here and there for fun until the Rogue Invitational in 2019. And now this is the next time. So, I am excited, I'm excited because I like creating goals based on fitness. Like two weeks ago, I went and did a century ride,

100 miles on a bike. A couple months before that, I did another event. I have a ruck event coming up. I wanna go compete in jujitsu competition. I like having these pylons that I could try and shoot for that keep me on my toes fitness wise that then translates into business as well. They're fun.

I did a century drive the other day, actually, drove. Yeah. So, century, jujitsu. So let's talk about jujitsu. What brought you to jujitsu and what's up with, like how far are you, like where are you going? Purple belt?

Yeah, I'm like, that's one purple belt in the room is what I heard. Yeah, that, by the way, that's when the competition, you know this, it's when it starts to get really hard now at that level. How's it been for you? Yeah, so I've been a purple belt since pre-COVID. So I think I'll be here for, I don't, we'll see how much longer I'll be at purple belt for.

But the way Jiu-Jitsu works, there's a white belt, a blue belt, a purple belt, a brown, and then a black. So, you know, because there's only five belts. So you could be at a belt for a really long time. And I love Jiu Jitsu because I like what it does because I'm constantly learning something new and the presence and focus required on the mat is unlike anything else.

And if I could take that presence and focus that I'm even having right now with you guys and if I could then put it on the mat and then take it into other areas of my life, I'm winning. Well, so let's talk about this for a second. Because I remember when I first did it, I was early 20s, 220 pounds, lifted weights. I had a little bit of judo experience as a kid,

but I didn't do anything for a while. And I walked in there big strong dude and got humbled by 150 pound skinny instructor. And I loved it. Like, talk about how humbling it is being a fit strong, I mean, CrossFit champion against them. Sure, for a long time, you want to against dudes that were half your size, half your strength,

and just tapping out like crazy. What's that all about? I mean, that's the theme I just used to. So, what I fell in love with in CrossFit was years and years ago, I started in conventional gym, just like all of us, right? And I buys and tries chest and back ago. I started in the conventional gym just like all of us, right? And I Bies and tries chest and back cardio. I get it all good. And then I found CrossFit and was like, oh, I'm a teacher. I do a bar muscle. You're like, what? And then it's like a rope climb. What?

You know a snatch. And I was very inspired because I saw dramatic improvements on a regular basis very, very quickly. So my snatch went from 100 pounds to 200 pounds, whatever it is, right? What happened is after competing professionally seeing all these different coaches, you maybe make like one percent better But you didn't make these big gains and I missed that then I found jujitsu and in jujitsu You could feel like you're making massive improvements every single day because you learn a technique that could have such a big impact on your training. So what it does, it's not only a physical thing for me, it's a lot of mental chess as well. And so I've had to humble myself in the sense that when you go in there and you're in your throwing down, there's a large learning curve because there's so much to learn.

But once you learn a baseline, then it's really exciting. I think you gotta give it six months, and you gotta be okay to put your ego at the door, because those guys will check that shit real quick. Oh, real fast. Yeah, oh, if you're trying to be a jerk, you'll send the arm breaker after. Oh, yeah, they will.

I wanna take you actually back to Cross Freaking, because I don't think I've ever had a chance to ask you this question. Sure. And you're probably not in this headspace anymore, but at one point you had to bend. Did you have an emphasis? Did you have someone you loved to beat who just used to get on your skin? Did you have a guy like that?

Yeah, I mean, obviously, so Rich Froney and I, we went back and forth quite a bit a lot. So him and I competing against each other. So he won, so in 2013, he took first, I took second. In 2014, he took first, I took third, and we competed together on Timo SA three times. We, so yes, I would say that rich at the time was the nemesis and, or the, but it was good for both of us.

Like actually at one point, I even wrote up in my garage what's rich doing as a daily reminder that this dude's probably training hard and you're being a little whimstainist at the house, go out there and train. That was just my way of kind of like inspiring myself. But yes, so Rich, and I think it was good for the sport at the time. There was a lot of throwing down. It's fun, man.

Now, are you guys friends though, outside of the competition, you guys close friends, right? Yeah, I mean, I think we're, well, I mean, yes. Like we'll see each other at the invitation, we'll be able to, you know, catch up. But like we were also on the same team. So we represented USA in three CrossFit competitions. So for that alone, you create a really good, great bond. Do you, do you foresee like,

and we're seeing this right now with like Instagram celebrities getting into fighting a boxing and the way people are using social. Yeah. Do you see the Josh bridges Jacob Hepner one? No, I don't know if you guys know who either of those guys are, but so Josh bridges is former Navy seal CrossFit Games competitor and he boxed against this guy Jacob heppner also former cross the games champion or cross the games competitor they boxed actually in Dubai with uh... uh... steffi Cohen oh they were on that card and so they were on this card and um... i think it's good for the sport oh yeah there it is right on the screen bridges into the ring nearly eight

yeah so uh... sport. Oh yeah, there it is. Right up on the screen. Bridges into the ring nearly eight. Yeah. So, uh, Jacob ended up winning, but it was really interesting because it's good to see our sport transition outside the gym. A lot of people in CrossFit do CrossFit to get better at CrossFit and working out, but I wish they would realize just how well it translates and everything else, biking to Jiu-Jitsu, getting outside. And this is a great example of that, I think. Well, that's what I was driving towards was, I was, I was, you know, I'm wondering if we're gonna see an evolution of the sport of CrossFit where, and why I asked kind of the Nemesis question is

because, you know, because of social media, drama. You know what I'm saying? Like a Jake Paul doing that stuff. Like, are you seeing that yet start to happen? Like where guys are like picking fights? I mean, well, you saw here, which I was surprised. You know, ultimately it's like if people are gonna pay for some great entertainment,

and it's gonna be something that's cool for these guys to train for, I'm all for it. Like some people are like, oh, you know, stick to cross, it's like bro. Like CrossFit, one of the first rules is regularly play new sports. Thatfit that one of the first rules is is regularly play new sports That's like one of the things and somehow along the journey We forgot that and so I think these guys get out there and doing that as great

And I think if there's an opportunity for me. I'd love to take it up. I don't know exactly what that looks like But it'd be fun. I'll find some for you to fight 24 fitness founder fights I'll find some for you to fight. I don't know. Let's see. 24 Fitness Founder fights. You're across it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot of fun. So all right, moving forward, what's the big focus for you guys?

Are you predicting? Are you guys prepared for maybe future shutdowns? Are you setting yourself up that way? Are you looking at, okay, it's going to settle down? We're going to keep moving forward the way that we have, like, what's that look like for? I hope that we don't have to have this discussion again. Like I really hope that we've learned from the past and that shutting down gyms is just not a good idea.

And so I'm anticipating that we will not, and I really hope we don't, because it's going to put us in a really difficult position. You know, since the beginning, we say, hey, we're gonna buy a buy state and county laws. But at some point, you know, we have to also think about our staff and our members. And there's a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. So right now, we're planning on, hey, the gym's gonna be open. We're gonna hit our roaring 20s coming January. We're gonna need new people back in the gym.

They're gonna be thriving. That's like, I visualize that, right? And then we're gonna try and impact as many people Through our online products whether that's for Jim owners or for for athletes through the NC FIDA Are they require I don't know if this is even a is this a law yet? Are they requiring gyms to add to require members to be vaccinated or is that just what some gyms are just saying to do so? Depends on your county in San Francisco County San Francisco city or county.

You're required to show. They're required. I have conflicting views on that a little bit. I think that you're really, I struggle with that one a lot. Even though I think that like 95% of our audience is vaccinated here in California, I think there's some privacy and I think that people should be able to make the best decision for them. And I think that, like, look, I am vaccinated, right?

And I think there's probably a large group of people who are in a certain cohort that probably should get it. But if you choose not to, after all the data and all the whatever, that's your decision. And as a business, it's very unfortunate if they place that upon you to be the common denominator where you're actually policing that. That's why I was an ask, what do they have to show?

Just the card and then you mark it in their system and then it's only good for a certain period of time or is it like how does that work? Well then when does it stop? Like then if there's another shot next year, do I have to then re up their vaccination card? It becomes very, very complicated. So like right now, for example,

I want to go to the movie theaters. Have you guys been to the prune yard movie theater? Yeah, I love it. Oh, they're legit. They required vaccinate. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, I didn't know that. So there's this app on your phone.

It just, there's a QR code. It pops up. I mean, I don't know how well people look at it, but you have to show it to the person there. And I just, I don't know. We will not, and we will not do that without being mandated. And if we are mandated, it'll require a conversation as a leadership team on what we want to do there. But I don't think that the government should be doing that and placing that burden on small business because they're putting

you in between a rock and a hard place. They really are. And, um, who pays the price if, if, if you check it wrong or if it's expired or if they falsify it, like it's really interesting, nobody's considering this. No one's considering that or, or yes, there's a variety of different things. Like Santa Clara County put out, this is a long time ago that we needed to, um, checking with each one of our employees to see who's vaccinated and who's not. We need to keep track. And that was very difficult for us because I said, we did it, right, we did it.

But because that wasn't infringing, that was tough for me to do, but I didn't feel like it was that big of a deal because if you're not, that's fine. But I don't wanna know about it. Meaning I didn't wanna be aware of who's vaccine or who's not because just in case someone needs to leave or we need to make an employment change. I don't want them to be able to come back and say it's because

of those reasons. Like, what's going to happen with those cases? What a good point. What a good point. Like, yeah, what I find most interesting is my own two cents. They don't count natural immunity. So you can show that you're vaccinated, but they don't give you any opportunities show that you've had COVID and have natural immunity, which studies now show to be the best form of immunity. They don't count it all. And that just in my, let me look, my opinion, that fuels the conspiracy theories that the big, farmas partnering with big government, because why wouldn't they count? If that's the goal, why aren't they counting natural immunity? Why is it

only vaccination? That to me, that part right there is very inconsistent. It doesn't make sense. That's very inconsistent. And then also for me, what's tough too, is like, I got vaccinated and then I still got COVID. And then I was still able to give it to my kids. And so, I don't know, it depends.

Look, this is a very complicated conversation because depending on what resources you look at, what sources you look at on news, you could go either way, meaning you could find some data that backs up that if you're vaccinated, your viral load and all this kind of stuff is significantly less and that's why you should get vaccines is greater, it's good for the greater good of all the people

in the environment. Or you can see others that say they doesn't make too much of a difference so you can still spread it just as easy. It depends on what you're looking at. But it's for that reason, like it's just what I don't like is that it's It depends on what you're looking at. But for that reason, it's just what I don't like is that it's placing

small business, including ourselves, in an impossible situation, where you have some members that feel super strongly about one way, and you have some members that feel super strongly the other way. And the gym is supposed to be a place where people should just come in, not talk politics, not talk any of that, and be a free space for them to enhance their life.

And, yeah, I don't remember who I was talking to. I can't remember who I was talking about, but to, but one of their favorite things about the gym culture, and I agree with this, is in all of us of experiences, you go into the weight room and you work out, and it doesn't matter what color your skin is, doesn't matter if you're male or female, doesn't matter who you voted for. Nobody cares, especially the gems where people are serious. Nobody gives a shit. It's all about we're working out, we're working hard, we respect each other.

And it's funny because people are afraid or intimidated of the weight room. I tell you what, you go to the weight room with the most hardcore members, and if you don't know what you're doing, and you need help, the most experienced hardcore, big jack scary looking people will be the nicest and will help with the most hardcore members. And if you don't know what you're doing, and you need help, the most experienced hardcore, big jack, scary looking people will be the nicest, and will help you the most.

And they don't care how rich you are, how poor you are, they don't care what you do for a living. A reddit color of your skin is, right? It's incredible. It is. It's just like this neutral zone where everybody's just cool. And everybody just wants to put in the work

and they want to do it together. And there's a lot of mutual respect in gyms because they know that you had the decision. Like I said, I took 6 a.m. class yesterday. I said to all the members, I said, guys, I really appreciate every one of you guys. You could be out at home eating a crispy cream or just sleeping.

But you chose to come in here and bust your butt. And I'm really grateful for you doing that. And I think that overall sentiment in the gym is what the culture is created, you know? It is. I had an experience as a kid. As a 16 year old kid working out, learning, and a group of that the time, the biggest, strong as dudes

that ever seen my life, the group of powerlifters. Yeah. Literally started helping me and taught me how to squat and taught me how to work out. Right there, they took their time to do it. This is these grown men. And it was just such an impactful thing to me. And I did that as a grown man myself

when I see a kid in the gym or someone who doesn't know what they're doing. And they're trying really hard to change that in gyms and it's sad because it's one of the most, I think one of the most beneficial things of fitness facilities is that environment right there. Yeah, we need to continue to have more conversations like this and get more people in the gym and do it in a constructive way.

Like, you know, if you live in the Bay Area, you want to come by and see Fit, we'd love to have you meet a coach and just have a great conversation about what do you try and do and how we could help you? But if you don't live in the Bay Area, go find a gym, go find a coach or go jump on a program, but I think it's like we gotta do something. You know, something is better than nothing and it starts creating these habits that then could really make a big impact. Like even like these morning walks that I've been doing, like take a backpack, put a couple water bottles in it, so it's a little bit of load

so it opens your shoulders, especially if you're sitting at a desk all day, and go out for a, you know, 30 minute walk to start today. It's a great way to jumpstart today, I think. That's a lot, man. Well, you're always fun to talk to, brother. You're very motivating, and we appreciate you coming on the show, so this is great.

Yeah, thanks. It's been a great time. I appreciate being here, man. Thank you, Tom, Jack. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance,

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