Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1750: How To Train For Size Vs. Strength

Episode Date: February 14, 2022

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin cover how to train for size and how to train for strength. The common misconception between training for size versus strength. (2:21) Why it is most likely you need to train a different way to see different results. (4:44) The importance of the central nervous system in this conversation. (6:37) How there is a way to get stronger without gaining a lot of size. (9:30) General rules or principles speaking to these two individuals. (11:01) Change your exercise selection or programming to seek novelty. (11:07) Manipulate rep ranges to maximize your desired outcome. (16:11) Focus on your rest periods. (21:57) Have an open mind. (24:35) Concentrate on the intent of the movement. (27:21) Eat in a surplus for size and strength. (30:35) The value in going through cycles of both. (33:53) The MAPS programs recommended for each individual over a course of a year. (34:54) Related Links/Products Mentioned February Promotion: MAPS Performance and MAPS Aesthetic 50% off!! **Promo code “FEB50” at checkout** Visit Drink LMNT for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! Fire up your Central Nervous System to maximize Muscular Adaptation – Mind Pump Blog Stop Working Out And Start Practicing – Mind Pump Blog Mind Pump #1612: Everything You Need To Know About Sets, Reps & Rest Periods Mind Pump #865: Stan Efferding- The World’s Strongest Bodybuilder MAPS Powerlift MAPS Fitness Prime Pro MAPS Fitness Anabolic Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources People Mentioned Stan “Rhino” Efferding (@stanefferding)  Instagram Chris Bumstead (@cbum)  Instagram IFBB Pro Dr. Ben Pollack (@phdeadlift)  Instagram Ben Pakulski (@bpakfitness)  Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Alright, today's episode, oh this is a good one. How do you train for strength versus how do you train for size? Yes, they are both closely connected,

but most people don't know that you could train more for one than the other. So listen to this episode and we'll teach you how to do those things. Now this episode is brought to you by our sponsor, LMNT. LMNT makes electrolyte powders with no artificial sweeteners or artificial anything that have the appropriate level of sodium Drink these before and during your workouts. You get better performance better pumps. They taste incredible

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The coupon code for 50% off for both of them is feb50, f-e-b, five zero, no space for that 50% off discount. I have a cool conversation that I like to have with you guys that I think would be fun and I'm real curious to hear. So I really, I really want to hear how you would separate these. Like I got a question not that long ago about training for strength versus training for high-perturphy. Oh yeah.

And I know we kind of talk about obviously the carryover and the benefits and of- High-perturphy being size. Size. Right, right. the carryover and the benefits and of... Highperture fee being size. Size. Right, right. So almost like, okay, somebody who like identifies more is kind of like the bodybuilder look, I want to sculpt my body, you know, hypertrophy versus somebody who I want to be strong, I care more about that. How is the training similar and how is it different and what does that look like depending

on which person we're talking to? Yeah, well also too. I mean, I think this is like a common misconception people have. They'll always look to the biggest person is like they're probably the strongest person in the room. And I used to think that too, like for a long time, to actually really understood weight training and how different it is in terms of like the training and what that produces.

And so that was something that was a bit enlightening for me. Yeah, I mean, it is true. They're very closely connected, right? Because the truth is bigger muscle fibers, which is what hypertrophy is. For the most part, there's other things that contribute to hypertrophy like intracellular fluid and sarcoplasm,

which is like, you know, it could be the capillaries in the fluid and the fuel and that stuff that makes your muscles bigger, but ultimately bigger muscle fibers contract harder than smaller muscle fibers. So, and what's tough about comparing two different individuals is there's other factors that can contribute to strength. But if you look at the one person, that same person, if they have bigger muscles, those bigger muscles will contract harder.

Now, does that mean that they're gonna be a little lift more weight, not necessarily? So this is where it gets kinda weird, right? Because a big part of strength is also skill. So you could have quads and hamstrings and glutes that contract harder than someone else's, but that other person might be able to squat more than you because they're well versed in the squat because of the skill of the squat itself.

And strength athletes will tell you this. They'll tell you that your technique and form and how you move the weight makes a big difference and how much you can lift. This is something you learn through practice. What do you think that, if you were to graph that, what that curve looks like? Because obviously, when you're brand new to lifting, both kind of come on pretty fast.

And do you think as you get more and more advanced that begins to kind of split, it does that make sense? Yeah, I'd say strength happens first faster, right? Because you get that CNS adaptation, you're able to fire the muscles a little better, then what follows those strength gains tends to be muscle, and then they kind of stay pretty closely connected.

We're talking about the average person right now, not necessarily someone specifically for strength or just hypertrophy, they're very closely connected, and then I'd say, then you get that split where you can focus mostly on strength or you can focus mostly on hypertrophy, and you'll get more of which one you tend to focus on. But it is clear that they're very closely connected,

meaning it's a good idea to focus on both and you can't completely separate them because they're so closely connected that if you improve one of them, even if your goal isn't to improve the other one, you're still gonna get some of the other. Yeah, it's carryover from both directions. Tons of carry-over.

So, and I wanna make it clear too, that, because we're gonna give kind of, I think, a general advice, right? If we were speaking to the strength person versus the hypertrophy person, but in my experience, one of the most common ways to help either one of those people is to introduce them to training more like the opposite one.

That makes sense, right? Like if you identify as a strength competitor, or power lifter type, or you love to live for strength, one of the best things a lot of times that person can do to get stronger is to train more for hypertrophy. And the same is true for the person that is seeking the next level of hypertrophy aesthetics

is to have one of those last time you train for strength or performance. And just because I think the most common thing is you neglect one or the other. Although I know we're going to go into some more like, hey, if you want strength, this is the way is more often than not, you should train versus. Yeah, totally. And then we can't, we need to, this conversation needs to include the central nervous system because it's what controls the muscles.

It's what tells the muscles to contract. It's also probably more importantly, what tells the muscles how to work together, right? Because using the example of the squat, you have a lot of muscles that are involved in moving the weight, like primarily the quadriceps and the glutes and the hamstrings. You have a lot of stabilizing muscles

that have to stay tight and stable. Pretty much the entire body needs to work together to lift the weight and how those muscles work together also determines how much weight you can lift. So the CNS plays a huge role and the CNS itself can fire harder or less hard depending on how well you train, how often you train. And the state of your lack of a term excitement. So like, in other words, you've all heard the story of the mom that lift the car, the burning car off their kid, right?

And people like, how was she able to do that, right? Under that extreme duress, the central nervous system, kind of bypassed its own. Yeah, it overloaded. So you have limiters. You have natural limiters in place so you don't get hurt and rip your muscle off the bone or cause like serious damage.

And so there's actually a way for you to train to kind of squeeze out even more potential by telling the body that this is secure, this is safe, this is something that is not gonna happen, that's the feedback you're getting back from your joints. So now your sensual nervous system's allowed to kind of juice it out. Here's an example that everybody can relate to, right?

Imagine how strong you are if you're really angry versus if you're laughing. Have you ever tried to lift something while you're still eating? I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like,

I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like,

I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like,

I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, I'm just like, Can you train your body to fire harder? Absolutely. Studies on top Olympic lifters show that they probably can get something like 90% percent out of their total potential. Which by the way, I've seen the studies around that the average person or lifter is like half of that. Yeah, crazy. You could take that person,

say the amount of muscle. Huge difference. Same amount of muscle. Get the CNS to fire harder, boom, they're lifting way more way. Or take the average person, give them caffeine, or a stimulant,, get the CNS to fire harder, boom, they're lifting way more way, or take the average person, give them caffeine, or a stimulant, which makes the CNS a little bit more excited, and then you see a five or 10% increase in strength.

So that plays a big role, and that's important to understand because strength training is also maximizing the CNS. Muscle, building muscle training, it's also a component of maximizing the CNS because a well-firing CNS is going to contribute to more muscle growth and activate more muscle fire. Well, I just wanted to bring up to, you know, based on everybody's individual goals, there's

the strength to weight ratio that you can sort of get affected by this, right? So there is a way to get stronger without, you know without necessarily gaining a lot of size. And you see this with people that are super connected, or even like say like a rock climber, or somebody that's like really super connected, strong, but like they're not, their body is adapting towards something that's going to be advantageous for their specific skill. So it's interesting that there's those differences, but if you look at them, they're super strong, but you wouldn't know that based on their physicality. No, that's a good point because let's say you're playing football, where you're tackling each other, there's no weight classes,

and mass also plays a role in how hard you can hit. Yep. It's probably a good idea to gain 15 pounds of mostly lean body mass, right, for the most part, unless the weight gets so high that your agility is off and off stuff. But let's say you're in a weight class, you're a wrestler, you're a middleweight or whatever, and it's 150 pound limit, and you want to get as strong as you can at 150 pounds. What you don't want to do is gain 10 pounds of muscle on top of it, because now you're competing with guys who could be as heavy as 170 pounds. So now your strength isn't as effective. So, and those are the cases where it's like people are like,

I just want to get stronger. And I've had that, I've had clients like that who are like, I can't gain any weight. I'm a motocross racer, I'm a rot climber, I'm a wrestler or a boxer. I have to stay in my weight class, but I want to get stronger. So how do I do that without building muscle?

So let's go over some general principles or rules that you would say speaking to these these two individuals. Totally. So again, understanding that strength is a skill, it makes sense that you would practice fewer exercises for more sets. Right. So if I'm trying to get as strong as possible in particular lifts, and today's leg day. And let's say my number one exercise that gets stronger is the squat. It makes more sense to do eight sets of squats than it does to do three different exercises for a couple sets each or whatever.

Now for muscle size, you see more of a benefit. And of course, in the extremes, you could get a little wonky and it doesn't necessarily, it's more of a benefit. And of course, in the extremes, it could get a little wonky, and it doesn't necessarily, it's not necessarily as effective, but it makes more sense to hit the lower body with different angles. You're still gonna squat, but you're also gonna do sissy squats or lunges and stiff leg and deadlifts

and different movements, because those different movements hit the muscle differently and develop more muscle size, but not as much strength in that specific lift. So this way you see power lifters, spend an hour workout in the squat rack, whereas a body builder does an hour-lake workout, and they're walking throughout the whole gym. Well, again, this kind of speaks to the central nervous system

in terms of learning a movement pattern and being most effective at that specific skill. And so if you treat it more as a skill, your body's going to receive that information, it's going to react to it to get better and more efficient at that. And so to add more sets just makes sense. You get more practice, you get stronger in that direction. And then the opposite side of that, we're challenging the muscle and trying to hit areas, maybe we're not addressing within the muscle.

Now, what someone might be thinking, because we talk about the importance of your changing your exercise selection or your routine because of the benefits you get from seeking something that's novel. Now, what would you say to that? Because this is, that kind of goes against what we're saying for this person, right?

This person wants strength, but for them, we're saying, hey, let's stick to these four or five movements consistently for an extended period of time, say a couple months even instead of rotating out of them like we might do for somebody who is wanting to chase hypertrophy. Why is that? How would you explain that?

Yeah, no, that's a good question. It's still true. It's just not as true. In other words, you can go to extreme, right? You can only squat in which case, you'll get good at the squat and then you'll stop getting good at the squat. You might actually get worse at the squat because you develop in balances, you start to develop aches and pains. So even power lifters do what they would call accessory work, where they're doing other exercises just to support the competitive lift of the squat with bodybuilding or hypertrophy training. of the squat with bodybuilding or hypertrophy training, varieties more important, but you could also go too far in that direction, right?

You can go so far in the direction of variety that you never give your body the ability to get good at specific exercises. So you're never really able to maximize them because if you choose a new exercise or you do an exercise, let's say you do a specific exercise once a month because you rotate everything so much that only once a month

I'm doing a squat. I never really get good enough at the squat to maximize its effect and push really good weight, right? So you can go to extreme in either direction. So really it's, again, it's broken down like this. It's like a strength routine would be fewer exercises for more sets. So let's say I'm doing 10 sets for chest,

for a strength workout, it may be two exercises, five sets each, for a bodybuilder type routine, it may be three exercises for three sets each and then maybe an extra set of something else. So more variety, but the volume is real intense. And a lot of that is because they care less about getting good at a movement. As a body builder, I never cared about what my bench

or my squat or any of these exercises, or I don't give a shit about that, because it's not about being strong. So I'm chasing a look. And so I want to follow an exercise long enough to reap the max benefits of muscle that's going to build on my body. Then I want to move to something else

so I can now reap the benefits from this. I don't care if I lose some of the benefits of getting stronger at that lift because I'm in pursuit of a look more. And so it's more advantageous for me to seek novelty if I'm more focused on hypertrophy versus strength. I want more of that CNS adaptation. I want to get good at the lift

because that's going to make me better and stronger at moving that way. Totally, completely. And the CNS learns how to fire more effectively in that specific way. The muscles learn how to stabilize them fire as a result, better. You learn the positioning better, you learn the positioning of the bar, better. And there's leverage, the technique, the leverage, you know, all that stuff. Because remember, the CNS, because remember the CNS,

it can fire generally, but it also is very specific, right? So an Olympic lifter might not be as good at a deadlift as a power lifter, but it's going to crush the power lifter at like a clean, because in both of them can really fire the CNS, right? So it can be much more specific. So when it comes to strength, it's like you want to practice fewer things more often to get that. And then for muscle, it's a little bit in the reverse, right? Now, what about rep range? We talk about the benefits of all the different

rep ranges. And we say this a lot on the show that anything between one and 25 has tremendous benefits for all pursuits. But again, if we are talking to a specific strength, you know, person and a specific hypertrophy person, how would you advise each one differently? Yeah, so all the rep ranges are good. So you should probably train in all of them, but you're going to spend more time in a particular rep range for strength and more time in a particular rep range for hypertrophy. Strength, it's, now we're, when we say strength, we're talking about kind of that bottom and that bottom range grinding strength, because you could also have, you's, now, when we say strength, we're talking about kind of that bottom and that bottom

range grinding strength, because you could also have strength endurance, right, which is higher reps and your ability to continue to go after, you know, with short rest periods. I'm talking about like maximal low. That's the kind of strength that we're talking about. In that particular case, you're going to train in the low rep ranges much more often. As low as one, but probably more often around four, five, and six, in that range. And your goal isn't to fatigue the muscles a ton. Your goal is to somewhat fatigue the muscles to generate as much force as possible.

Generate as much force as possible and get really good at the lift and get really good at generating force within that specific lift. I also think that you would tend to flirt with the ends of the spectrum more often, depending on which one you are, meaning if I'm a strength athlete,

I'm gonna find myself pulling singles and doubles and triples rarely frequently. I wanna be good at being able to do that. And so I'm gonna practice that quite a bit in my routine where maybe if I was a bodybuilder, I would do that to interrupt my training occasionally, but not very often. And then the opposite is true for the strength athlete

will every once in a while interrupt their routine with maybe 20 reps, but not very often because it's not getting as much of a benefit. And then the other end of the spectrum with the hypertrophy person, right? They're rarely ever gonna do singles or doubles, maybe every once in a while they interrupt it, they're gonna lean more towards flirting with the 20,

25 rep range more often than the strength out. Yeah, the higher rep ranges that ate, you know, to 15 or so, even as high as 25, you get more fatigue, you get more damage, you get a better pump, you get more muscle hypertrophy. I remember when we interviewed Stan Effarding a while ago, and he was... Mr. 20 squats, guy.

Yeah, he was a powerlifter, right? And he, like, one of the strongest professional bodybuilders all all the time, and he was mainly a powerlifter for a long time. Then he hired a bodybuilding coach to help him get his pro card, and he wanted to put on more size. One of the main things he did was stop the, you know, to help him get his pro card, and he wanted to put on more size. One of the main things he did was stop the 3, 4, 5 reps sets of squats and do like 20 reps of squats.

And lots of variety. He started doing leg press and leg extensions and lunges. Whereas when he was powerlifting, it was like mostly squats. And what he saw was his strength didn't really go up because obviously not training for strength, but his size went up quite a bit. His legs grew, everything grew quite a bit from training that way. And that was a great example because here that was an extreme example of what you could see when you training those extremes. Now I want to reiterate what you're

saying. Does that mean that training one, two, and three reps isn't going to build muscle? No, not at all. Does it also mean that that training into and three reps isn't going to build muscle? No, not at all. Does it also mean that that training into 20 rep range isn't going to help you build maximal strength? No, not at all. They all contribute to it. It's just you're going to spend more time on one end with one pursuit and on the other end. Well, yeah, because you have a very specific adaptation you're trying to acquire. So you're going to lean towards the one. The majority of your time needs to stay there. Yeah. It's going to give you the biggest bang for your buck. They, yes, they all give you some

bang for your buck, but the biggest bang for your buck is going to come staying towards that rep range most of the time. And then intermittently interrupting it with the other end of the spectrum once and then going back to that. Yeah, totally. The same is true on both sides. Yeah, and I mean, I've, you know, some of the best, some really good power lifters that I've talked to you, they say, oh yeah, I'll run a cycle of more bodybuilder style training. And then I notice when I go back to my powerlifting training, I've got a little bit more muscle

and I feel more stable. Yeah. And I can generate more force when I get into it. And then you'll talk to bodybuilders and they'll say something similar in the opposite direction. Oh yeah, I'll do, you know, I'll do a month of five by five or I'm focusing on the basic lifts trying to get real strong.

And I'll notice I get more of a granite hard look and then when I go back to my bodybuilding training to generate more force and power. Exactly. I think not enough of them do it though. I mean, they used to. If you have people like C-Bum and you have like, he's big on it.

You have been Pollock who obviously is because he was come there. There's not a lot at least in men's physique I should say maybe it's more popular in in bodybuilding you see some of these guys do that But I was actually really blown away by how many men's physique athletes didn't take advantage of this They all thought you know the squatting and deadlifting heavy weight loves the overhead pressing, like heavy weight. I'm not a power lifter, I'm a strength athlete. Why would I do that? I think we also, we need to touch on the risk factor of lifting heavy, especially when you start to get real big.

That's probably one of the main reasons, right? You have 250 pound body builder. And when you start to train heavy, you're lifting weights now that if they get away from you, you can hurt yourself. And you know, these guys and girls are, they're so not interested and don't care about the weight that they're lifting that I think that they look at the risk. It's not really worth it. But the guys and girls that do it right are smart. You brought up C-bum. I mean, when you see him doing, if you see the evolution of his physique, it's like he started squatting in dead

lifting heavy and incorporating that into your routine and he just started building more muscle. see him doing, if you see the evolution of his physique, it's like he started squatting and deadlifting heavy and incorporating that into your routine and he just started building more muscle. It just speaks to what we're saying, which is you don't want to separate the two in fact. First of all, you can't, but you don't want to, you want to kind of train a little bit above. All right, here's another one, rest periods.

You know, for strength, it's quite clear that, first off, if you're training, if you want to build strength, you should train strong. So what does that mean? Long rest periods. Your goal isn't to fatigue the shit out of yourself and train your stamina or your endurance. Your goal is to do your set.

Like if you ever watch Powerlifters, I said they'll spend an hour in the squat rack. Watch them between sets. It's like five minutes in between sets, and they're hanging out and talking, and then they'll get under the bar and do three, four reps and then sit down and hang out for a little time. Bodybuilders don't do that.

Bodybuilders are moving all the time. If you're trying to maximize force output, you really need, like fatigue is your worst enemy. You need to be super focused, and you need everything to be organized and to produce all at once. And so yeah, you need that rest period to really recoup in order to perform at a high level. So that way your body actually then progresses forward and it learns how to do that most effectively.

Yeah. I did say bodybuilders are moving all the time, which is true, they typically will rest less than strength athletes. However, they can also benefit from, again, intermittently resting along. It's the same. It's exactly the same type of recommendation

as the last point. It's like you should spend most of your time in what you're saying, but going on the other into the spectrum intermittently and spectrum, you know, intermittently and to interrupt you training this way is a great idea. You just are going to spend most of your time in the, like if I'm the strength athlete, most of my time is longer rest periods, but there's tremendous benefits for me doing a short meso cycle of where I'm actually running that on the short rest periods and then going back to that. And then the same

is true for the hypertrophy client that's always training to look a certain way. Every once in a while, hey, let's run like a strength protocol and give you all kinds of rest before we go back to supersetting and short rest periods. Yeah, I was influenced early on as a kid by power lifters. And so I was a long rest period kind of person.

And then I was convinced to try shorter rest periods and supersets and focus on the pump. And it was the first time I my life, I saw my strength go down, but my muscle size go up. It was a very weird experience. I had the same experience. It was very strange. I'm like, oh my god, I'm lifting less,

but I'm building more. Now I'm lifting less because I'm resting 30 seconds, you know, or a minute between sets or supersetting. But I saw like, like muscle gains. And then when I went back to my longer rest periods, man, I was so strong. So, you know, basically, I mean, what you're saying at them is 100% goal.

Like that's, that's, you know, though, it's such a challenge for people to do this, though, because what happens is at one point in your lifting career, you experience something like what you're saying right now. Somebody introduces you to a way of training, and you see like this huge change from that new stimulus or new way of resting, or new way of lifting,

and then all of a sudden you become married to that, or you identify so strongly with a type of lifter. Like, oh, I'm definitely more of the athletic type, so I'm always doing hit training and plyometrics, you know, or I totally identify with the strength guys. So I'm always lifting heavy and resting long periods of time. So that's the dangerous part about, you know, teaching people these, like, general principles about this type of an avatar is that somebody, here's the advice, they go do it.

Oh my god, these are great results. Now they're married to that one way. And it's important to know that, yeah, you should stay in that direction most of the time, but it's so good for you to interrupt that intermittently through your team. Yeah, I would say one of the best attributes of somebody who's got long-term success with specifically

with resistance training is an open mind. I would have to say that, right? Cause had for me at least, you know, had I not had an open mind, I would have never tried kettlebells. Why? I had dumbbells and barbells. That was a kettlebell. And I would have totally missed out, right? I would have never tried isometric holds or overhead carries.

I would have never tried supersets or full body workouts instead of splits and vice versa. And every time I tried something, I saw the benefit. And what happens is it's like a piece of the puzzle. And depending on your goal, some of the pieces of the puzzle are big and some of them are small, right? If you're a strength athlete, what a big piece of the puzzle is fewer movements,

you know, more sets per movement, right? And a smaller piece is maybe more variety. And then if your bodybuilder focus, it's a little different. But all of them are pieces to the puzzle. And you're missing something if you don't have that open mind. It's funny because the three of us are, are like Justin's like one end of the spectrum,

you're on the other end of the spectrum and I'm kind of in the middle in terms of, how we always train. Although now all of us really understand the value of our community. Yeah, we've all kind of taken from each other and applied it and it's, yeah, totally translates. So it's like, like you said,

you have an open mind and it's gonna fulfill a lot of holes in your training and you're gonna notice the difference. Although we still all kind of gravitate so the things that were fair. Of course, but I know long on our strengths. But I incorporate other stuff with you. Right, right.

And I think that's the message to get across to people is like, listen, it's, because there's always that other argument of like, well, if you don't love doing it, you know, that's more important, right? Like, it's important to love what you do and you love training a certain way. But it's like, it doesn't mean that there's not tremendous

value for you just to interrupt that every once in a while. So you continue to reap the great benefits of training that way. So otherwise. It allows you to do what you love more. Right. And more effectively. Right.

All right, so this next one, in my opinion, is one of the most important aspects of strength versus muscle building. And that's this, when you're trying to build strength, I am not focused on the target muscles. I don't care what muscles I'm working, when I'm deadlifting or pressing or rowing or squatting. All I care about is moving the weight efficiently and effectively, and in a safe way,

when I'm trying to build muscle. Good mechanics. I am trying to feel the muscle. Like if I'm doing a barbell row for strength, it's about perfect form and movement. How do I get this movement efficient and get the barbell moving? When I'm trying to work my back with a barbell row

and try to build it, I'm like, can I get my back to contract more? Can I squeeze it? Can I feel it more? Totally. And this is it, I'm like, can I get my back to contract more than I squeeze it? Can I feel it more? Totally. And this is the, I would say this is the biggest difference because the exercises could be exactly the same, but focusing on the movement versus the...

The intent changes everything. Totally different, totally different. I wish that I had a video of when Justin and I first started working out together, you know, over a decade ago, when we first met because it would be the perfect example of the two differences on how they train. Like every, but everything from the setting up for the movement, to how we move the bar, to the tempo of the ball. Quickly, I would bench versus your slow control.

Totally. I mean, to a tee, you know, I train so much more like a bodybuilder, hypertrophy guy, just an absolutely trained more athletic and strength, and you could just tell that it had been, you know, something that we have developed for so many years that every bit of our habits to get even ready for it and how we move is so hardwired, so. That's hilarious. So funny.

Do you remember when we went to Ben Pekolsky? Yeah. Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah, he took us to the silver culture. Oh, it's so great. He took us through a bodybuilding workout. Yeah, and you know, Adam and I, you know, we're kind of more used to that feeling the muscle and the whatever. And Justin's a movement guy, 100%. I remember Pekolsky kept correcting you. No, no, no, do this slow down. He's giving frustrated. I don't know what you're trying to do here, but I'm liking to do my own thing now.

Just like, I'm moving the bar. Like, what do you want me to do? What else do you do? What else do you do? What else do you do? It's totally different, but I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, look, if you want to develop your glutes when you squat, you, you squeeze and feel the glutes.

You want to develop your quads when you squat. While you focus on the quads, when it's strength, it's like, whatever works better to get the bar up so long as I'm safe in the form. Well, and the important part of that story is that they both have tremendous value. Totally. They both have a ton of value. Like Justin's ability, still to this day,

if I were to compare him to his ability with any exercise that we do, to generate the most amount of force on command right away from his body, he's so much better at it than I am. It doesn't matter how much I try and prime and think about it and practice that way. I just haven't trained enough that way

that he has the ability to get way more maximal force out of that. I would say what I'm great at is being able to on command contract and activate a muscle. That's squeeze, squeeze, exactly. That as much as I possibly can, great at is being able to on command contract and activate a muscle. Exactly. That as much as I possibly can, no matter how weird of a position or a movement I could be doing, I've learned to do that really, really well. Totally.

All right, so this next one's about nutrition. How would you eat for size and for strength? You eat in a surplus. More calories. It's the only one that they're both exactly the same. Totally the same. Now, here's what's weird. It's the only one that they're both exactly the same. Totally the same. Now here's what's weird. Here's what's really weird.

You can, I would say, depending on the person, it's probably easier to get stronger in maintenance or in a deficit versus building muscle at maintenance or in a deficit. Both hard, but I could get somebody stronger in a deficit if I get them better at squatting or better at deadlift. Oh, that's 100% true. To build muscle in a deficit is like, that's like turning, you know, like lead into gold. It's like alchemy.

Yeah, it is alchemy, yeah. It's magic and it's very, very challenging. And it's extremely rare and it's most, if it is going to happen, it's most commonly gonna happen in someone who's brand new. Yeah. And so it's true.

And they're just, those results are happening regardless, right? It's not very common that you see somebody who's in a caloric deficit that is going to build in muscle. Here's the big difference and this is what's interesting. Strength you can get stronger at lifts sometimes by gaining some body fat too. There's leverage improvements. The extra fat cushions, the joints, makes things feel less painful. This is why power lifters and strength athletes aren't necessarily as ripped or lean as bodybuilders. And when it comes to hypertrophy and muscle building,

you know, I know there's people out there like I just want to build muscle at all costs, but most people want to build more muscle that could see more muscle. So they're less concerned about just overall size and more concerned with muscle and definition of the muscle So the surplus I would say might be a little different for example if if I was in a competition Just to lift as much as possible my surplus would be way higher. Yeah

Yeah, exactly not yeah, they're not deciphering whether or not you're Consisting of mainly body fat versus muscle. Yeah, they're not deciphering whether or not you're consistent of mainly body fat versus muscle. Now, that being said, you can still overdo that too. You could still over consume so much to where you're getting adverse effects, which I think. And I think that in the powerlifting community, it's been accepted for a really long time to do. Well, especially in the upper weight limits

where there's no weight class. Yeah, to go just to go all out. And it's like, sometimes you see some of these guys, you know, like, you know, I believe they're not, he probably would benefit from leaning out a little bit, you know, and that he's got to be over consuming like crazy in it. It's not exactly a one to one. You gain more body fat. You're also going to get a little bit stronger.

It doesn't always continue to scale. And I've done that where I've gone so hard on the strength size. Well, I'm like, that's it. I just want to get as strong as possible. I don't care. And I'll gain, you know, 30 pounds of body weight, right? And my squat will go up, you know, 15 pounds. And then I'm like, yeah, but the ratio, yeah. And I'm like, wait a minute. I'm 30 pounds heavier. And I can only squat 15 pounds more technically as a human walking around and moving around. You're taking a stronger lifting less weight

at a lower weight. Yeah, like for my body, you know what I mean? My strength weight ratio isn't very good. That's what I meant by it's not a direct one to one ratio. So you have to keep that in consideration, even if your goal is to be stronger and you are now moving more weight, but if you put 30 pounds of weight on

just to move five more pounds away, you are technically a stronger person with a 30 pounds. But you're weaker overall. Yes. Not so great, pay attention to that. So ultimately, what's the lesson here? Well, unless you're an athlete training in a specific sport, you're better off kind of messing with both, training with both.

I mean, most people, I'd say watching this show, are interested in kind of like, I want to do this forever. I want to build muscle, I want to be strong, I want to have longevity, I want to feel good. How do I keep the progress continuing as long as possible? Of course, at some point, you'll hit a limit because otherwise, I've been working out for 25 years, I'd be bench pressing 6,000 pounds by now. What, how can I keep things moving forward as long as possible and reach those limits

in a safe and healthy way? Will you do both? You go through cycles of both, you mix them in. This way, like, maps in a ball, like, is literally the first phase is pure strength, the last phase is straight body building, and the middle phase is kind of both, right? That's the one of our original programs.

And you'll see all of our programs kind of have components in this because, you know, they contribute to each other. They all work together. Now let's, I'm curious to how you guys, excuse me, we do this as far as like, let's say we have the strength, and let's use our programs, right?

So if I'm gonna use our programs to recommend for you, and then we'll say a year time. So we have a year time, someone who wants to focus on strength, someone who wants to focus on high-perture fee, what is the programs that you would recommend to them for each individual. Over the course of a year. Now, figure out, now, so the audience who doesn't know if you don't have any of our programs, they're three months long. So basically, we're gonna recommend four programs, let's say, what does it look like for somebody

who is in more of a pursuit for high-perchivey, somebody who is more in pursuit of a strength? What would you guys do? Would you recommend something like this, let's say strength athlete is three cycles in a row of strong with the interrupted like, maps aesthetic in there, or would you go, you know, one or two rounds of powerlifts,

excuse me, I didn't mean strong, I meant powerlifts. Powerlift with interrupt that with, you know, either anabolic or aesthetic and then go back to powerlifts, like what would it look like? Yeah, I would be strength athlete, I'd be like, I'd go anabolic performance. I think performance will be in both,

because if all this addresses yeah the joints and Again to secure that and feel stable so that way you can keep adding load and you can keep cheering for it Yeah, so I leave anabolic performance, you know, and then strong and power lift like that would be the strong at the strength athlete And then the bodybuilder one would be like Anabolic performance and then maybe aesthetic and split yeah, what if I only allowed you guys to use two programs? Yeah. You can only use two programs for each of these, these people to switch back and forth or intermittently interrupt a cycle of them.

You can only use two programs. We know, I mean, obviously, you know, Oh, I'd go, I know, I'd go performance in Powerlift or performance in aesthetic. That's what I want to do. Okay. Only because like, like, power lift is like literally the definition of just trying to get strong. Yeah, you know, it's not a lot of unconventionalist.

It's just very one to one. I mean, you guys are both because you're throwing performance and then you guys are taking care of the joints and thinking more. For trainers, dude. Yeah. It's hard not for maximum benefits for the aesthetic person. I would have ran. I would have ran something like aesthetic

for most of the aesthetic or split for most of the year and only interrupted it in the middle with a power lift. I'd actually love to interrupt it with a power lift cycle in there and then the rest is aesthetic. You know, throwing maps, Prime Pro for the joints and then you're fine, I think. Right, if we could do that.

Yeah, if we could do that then you're totally fine. I mean, I can't worry you guys. I mean, of and then you're fine. I think, right. If we could do that, then you're totally fine. I mean, of course, you're being a responsible trainer. I'm trying to think more like we're not thinking in general health, we're not thinking all the other things that you should consider. Well, I don't want to say, someone's gonna hurt them so I can't. Cypures, strength, pure hypertrophy.

What are the two programs? I'm gonna focus you more on. I'm thinking aesthetic, the person that wants to high hypertrophy, it's gonna be more like aesthetic or split, most the entire year with an interrupted program of power lift to get that. Yeah. And then on the other side, it's mostly power lift for the entire year, and then just interrupt it with maybe anabolic or maybe aesthetic or

one of those. Yeah, no, I can definitely go with that. It's just hard to take off my train right now. Well, I mean, we talked about this in a recent episode, right, where we talked about, you know, performance we believe is probably the most important general program that somebody could run consistently because we did, we, we, it's so focused on mobility and stamina and endurance and moving in different planes. Like it really is the one that will give you the best bang for your buck when it comes to,

I wanna be stronger, I wanna be leaner, I wanna be fitter, I wanna have endurance, I wanna have stamina, I want my joints to be mobile, I can address all that. Yeah, don't forget, like the first phase of mass performance is like, it's like classic strength. Right, so you're still gonna build good muscles, build, I mean, you're still gonna get

all those, those general things that I've had so, I get it. Good deal. Look, if you like our information, head over to MindPumpFree.com and check out all of our guides. We have guides that can help with almost any fitness goal. You can also find all of us on social media. So Justin is at MindPump Justin on Instagram. I'm at MindPump Sal on Instagram and Adam is at MindPump

Adam also on Instagram. Thank you for listening to MindPump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy at Mind Pump Atom also on Instagram. performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price.

The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is MindPump. And by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is Mind Pump.