Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1857: Are Squats Overrated?: A Debate With Eugene Teo

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Eugene Teo. Why he takes issue with the emphasis on the barbell back squat. (2:28) How people have a hard time separating their emotions from logical reason. (5:47) Individual variance matters! (10:07) Are split stance exercises superior to bilateral lower body exercises? (13:49) Functional versus hypertrophy. What does he lead towards? (17:06) Understanding there are so many different paths people can go on when it comes to training. (19:31) The difficulty of catering to your audience on social media. (24:31) When is anecdote valuable? (31:16) The problems with being science-based versus science-bound. (35:46) Addressing his post on correctional exercise and being a waste of time. (41:11) Is a deadlift a good back hypertrophy exercise? (59:17) The systemic effects of novelty. (1:02:48) The most underrated training style. (1:12:45) Biggest training paradigm-shattering moments. (1:14:47) Favorite forms of conditioning. (1:18:09) Is he pro-full-body or body-part split? (1:24:37) What currently makes him roll his eyes in the fitness space? (1:26:44) Paralysis by analysis and podcasting. (1:28:39) What is his main source of business? (1:35:53) Will Mind Pump visit Australia? (1:37:38) Who are his favorite fitness influencers in Australia? (1:39:57) Women CAN lift! (1:42:14) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit ZBiotics for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! July Promotion: RGB Bundle or MAPS Suspension 50% off! **Promo code JULY50 at checkout** Why Squatting Like a Baby is Terrible Advice Unpopular Opinion How to Build Legs Mind Pump #1382: Why Everyone Should Squat MindPump Co-Host Justin Andrews Talks High School Football Training w/ Joe D! Eugene Teo “Posture” Post Mind Pump #1490: How To Improve Your Posture MAPS Prime Pro Webinar MAPS Strong The Body of Knowledge Podcast — Andy Galpin, PhD Ganbaru Method - The home of Coach Eugene Teo Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Eugene Teo (@coacheugeneteo)  Instagram Arnold Schwarzenegger (@schwarzenegger)  Instagram Dorian Yates (@thedorianyates)  Instagram Joe DeFranco (@defrancosgym)  Instagram Andy Galpin (@drandygalpin)  Instagram Robert Oberst (@robertoberst)  Instagram Ben Greenfield (@bengreenfieldfitness)  Instagram Sharelle Grant (@sharellegrant)  Instagram Luke Tulloch (@_luketulloch)  Instagram James Smith (@jamessmithpt)  Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. You guessed it, this is Mind Pump, right? In today's episode, oh, we got a fun one for you today. Eugene Tail on the show, hope I said that right, Tail. Tail, did I say that right?

Close enough. Great guy, love him, love to debate with the guy on social media, smart, very smart dude, very objective. So we actually got into some great conversations here on the podcast like squats are they overrated? Can you correct your posture with exercise? What about pain? Is that something that you should monitor

or is that super subjective and much more? So this was actually one of the longer interviews we did because it was so enthralling. We had a great discussion. I know you're gonna enjoy this episode. Now this episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors, Zbiotics. All right, so Zbiotics is the world's first genetically modified

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a show. Eugene, welcome back, dude. Oh, it's great to be here. You know what I like about you is that because we're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're

just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just, you're just not it. No, we were just talking off there about how many people in our space are so sensitive, that it's so hard to discuss things and talk about things, but, and we just talk about people who we like, who are not like that. You're one of those people.

I really enjoy talking to you because you're very objective. You have good conversations, good discussions. So that's why we like having you on the show. So we talk, I'm glad to, glad to hear that. Yeah, I appreciate that. So what's your problem with squats? You did a few, a few post-s I'm glad to see post-s I'm glad to hear that.'t need to do them? Like what's the deal with it? So specifically, it's not squat. So I think everybody should be squatting.

In just a squatting motion, we definitely need to squat to be able to do that. But my issue is the overemphasis of a barbell squat specifically. And even not even just a barbell squat, but a barbell back squat being like the king of exercises. Like if you ask somebody, how you what's the king of exercise? It's going to be barbell deadlift or it's going to be a barbell squat. Things like that. You must do those two things. For some reason, barbell bench press gets scored a toss list. I don't care about bench press,

which is why I'm a health. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. But yeah, barbell squat, barbell, job there, there, there, and it's got to be conventional. I can't be sumo. Sumo is for cheaters, right? But they're the two king exercise and say, well, why is that? And why are we But they're the two king exercises and say, well, why is that? And why are we emphasizing that? And not just emphasizing, but why do we force feed that to a lot of people? Where I definitely think that we all need to squat, and we should all be squatting with some kind of resistance, whether it's for some people just bodyweight resistance could be enough, whether it's a goblet position, whether it's,

whether it is a barbell as well, I think a barbell still a great tool. But what I see in the industry, by coaches, is they have this belief that we all have to be doing a barbell back squat as a mainstay in our programs all the time. And that that is the gold standard that we should be working towards. So maybe like my mum, she can't do a barbell back squat right now, but I should be saying we should be working her towards being able to do that. Should be the goal. I say, well, why is that? Like, why should I put that arbitrary standard on her as the outcome for her to be working

towards when she doesn't care about that? Like, she doesn't need that in her age, in part of her goals or anything like that. And the same thing applies to most people. And even like someone like, maybe my mum is a very niche audience. What about most of us? Like do we all need to be doing a barbell squat for our goals of getting stronger, building our muscle mass, getting more mobile, getting more flexible and just improving bone density? Do we really need to be doing a barbell back squat? And unless if you're specifically a barbell athlete, like a powerlifting, weightlifter, a cross-fitter, I believe that we don't.

Like those people definitely need to do it. And they should do it a lot. But for anything else, which is probably 99% of people who are in the gym, because they're not powerlifters, they're not cross-fitter athletes, they need to be doing a squat motion. So do they need to do it with a barbell? Probably not.

If they want to, yeah, knock yourself out, go for it. It's not gonna kill you, not gonna give you any cancers. Do you have a theory on why that is? Like, why do you think that has become so popular? What do you have a theory about? I agree with you. I think I agree 100% with what you just said.

I totally agree training lots of people, lots of different people. Just squatting, the motion of squatting is very important. It's fundamental. Yes. But what you're saying, 100% makes perfect sense. So yeah, so what Adam said would be good. Yeah. Look, I're saying, 100% makes perfect sense. So, yeah. So what Adam said, what do you do? Yeah.

Look, I think it's a big thing where people have a hard time separating their emotions from logical reasoning. And this is beyond swan, this is everything. And you think about, like, what do, what were most of us brought up on? It was things like pumping iron. It was all the strong emotional attachments to those honest Schwarzenegger, this kind of body builds, power lifters. And we see very successful athletes

who are very strong or very big or very athletic for performance. And we see them doing a barbell squat. And we just take that face balance and say, ah, the barbell squat is what we must do. Like you look at garlic ton plates. Like he's got ridiculous legs. He still does to this day.

And he's still barbell squatting. He's the king of barbell squats, and he's the king of legs. And we see that, okay, logically, well, we think logically, but it's actually more emotionally, that's the answer, that's what you must do, because all these other people have done that. And if you also look at how most of us were brought up in terms of our own personal training, like when did you guys start training? Like ourselves or training clients? Oh, yourselves, like yourself.

Oh, 25 years, 14. Yeah, probably 10, age is 25. 25 years ago. Oh, for example, you go, it's gonna be easier, I like it when I'm doing it. Yeah. How old were you?

I was 13. Yeah, like, so I was like 13, 14. Yeah, similarly kind of thing. So, and what would most of us do when we start eventually training legs, which might have been like five years later? But we probably start doing barbell squats, and our legs would respond. And why did the legs respond?

Was it because of the barbell squat, or was it because you started giving them some kind of lower body stimulus? It's probably more just a stimulus, not the actual squat itself. But in that age, we have a hard time separating the two, and we just say, oh, Bible squat, I grew legs, I got stronger, I got more athletic, I built strength, I built muscle

mass, that's the answer. And it creates this confirmation bias where we see in ourselves, oh, I got all these awesome results doing a Bible squat. And that must be the answer. And then we look at Arnold Schwarzenegger, we look at Tom Platts, we look at a a love Olympic athletes across a variety. So you see them all doing Bible squats. Oh, that must be the thing that confirms my bias, that the squats are what built my legs. And we never challenge that thought process. And then when somebody comes along who does challenge you're like, no, no, you must be completely wrong because I've always anecdotal history of me growing big legs when I was in my newbie phase, honestly, of growing legs. So you must be incorrect.

I mean, have I really opened ourselves up to challenging the idea of saying, well, what did it actually that caused us to get stronger, to get bigger, to build muscle mass? Was it really that barbell squat, with a back squat position, or maybe I could have gotten similar results with the front squat, maybe I could have gotten similar results with other exercise, or like a split squats, lunges, maybe even just I wouldn't recommend this person, but even if you were just doing just machines, maybe you could have gotten a similar response. But for whatever reason, we just emotionally attach it to that because that's the one thing. So that's an interesting theory. This is actually highlights our age gap right here. This is funny. Because we're we're all I'm 40.

This guy's 42 41 like you're 30. So my experience in and my theory on the whole squat narrative now is it's it's coming back into favor where it had fallen out of favor for like over a decade. When I was 20, nobody squatting. In fact, we used to joke around at the gym that we had one squat rack and it had dust on it because nobody squatting. So there's just five, 40,000 square foot gyms that we did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they did not.

So it did not work out today, not one person squatting. This was before CrossFit. So I think the introduction of CrossFit and that coming in really started to repopularize the barbell lifts because and still to this day, you're rarely will see, you will now more than ever, but I've 10 years ago, you would never see someone deadlift in a 24-hour fitness. Just didn't, no, I'm deadlifted. And I would have members come up to me,

and I'm a manager, I'm managing the gym, and they'd come up to me and freak out. You're gonna hurt your back, what are you doing? This isn't how you work out, and I was doing a traditional deadline. There's two parts of this conversation that I think we need to separate. One is general advice,

and then two is the individualized aspect. Because there's so many variances with the individual when you're talking about training. I've had cases where split stance exercises were far superior for clients, others where bilateral exercises were amazing. Generally speaking, the back squat, in my opinion, really reasons why it's so great, and I agree with a lot of what you said.

I don't think it's ideal for everybody. But generally speaking, I like it because the leverage is great. You can load it very well, and it's hard to do a free standing squat. You mentioned the front squat. Although with the front squat posture tends to be a little better, mechanics in some cases are better, but in other cases they're not. Holding a barbell across the shoulders, especially weightlifting style. It's very, very challenging for a lot of people, whereas not saying a back squat isn't challenging,

but it's a little easier to get in that position. And then the load you can handle and the leverage seems to work really well. So that's why I think it's a great, like trying to do a Galbus squat, or although now they have belt squats, which I think are pretty awesome, but we didn't have those forever. And most gems still don't have that.

So I think it's important we separate, like here's the general advice, but there's always individual variances. I think that's what we separate, like here's the general advice, but there's always individual variances. I think that's what we're talking about, right? In many cases, in many individual cases, these exercises that everybody touts as being so amazing might not work. They might not work for you.

Well, I think that's where we're all on the same page and this conversation is, although I'm super pro barbell back squat, I would also tell you that 90% of my clients never got to a barbell back squat. So that's where we're all on the same page. I had to do goblets, goblets squats, Bulgarian split squats, walking lunges, tend to be, step ups, tend to be the movements that I'd have to regress all my clients to. In hopes that one day I could get them to a place where they could do a good barbell back squat, but I think what's interesting is listening to you talk

about the kind of history of everybody says it's amazing. Yeah. Nobody said it's amazing. My experience was the opposite. I was the kid. I was the kid. Yeah, I was the kid who was tough. Leg pressing and leg extension and lunges and doing all the

and just I didn't barbell backspot because I didn't know how. I really didn't even as a young trainer. I was intimidated by it. I didn't ever had anybody who took me under their wing and taught me how to do it properly. I didn't want to look I really didn't, even as a young trainer, I was intimidated by it. I didn't ever had anybody who took me under their wing and taught me how to do it properly. I didn't want to look like a fool in it. And it was hard. You know, the few times I did it,

I'm tempted, it was very, very hard. It didn't feel right. And so I avoided it for most years. And got away with it because the gym was like, nobody was squatting or deli. But now it's different. It was CrossFit. CrossFit made barbell exercises coming to the fray

into the mainstream. Literally, I mean, what he said is 100% true. I would manage these massive gyms, so much equipment, one squat rack, and nobody used it ever, except for you Curl sometimes. You see somebody doing that joke, right? Curls in the squat rack. That was a commonality in the early,

late 90s, early 2000s when I would manage these gyms. Now you mentioned it when I was like 2009, also when I was first personal training and working in like a commercial gym, you know, we big, big, big, both commercial gym, one squat rack. And that's my bias because I grew up as a body builder. Like I looked up to body builders,

I was, when I was in that time, I was a body builder myself. So I was looking to body builders. I was, when I was in that time, I was a body builder myself. So I was looking at, yeah, all my tunnel vision on squat rack, tunnel vision on Aron Chowicz and Aiga. But from the industry perspective, I think you're absolutely right. It is.

It's interesting that you look back to the 70s and even early 80s, because late 80s and 90s, squats were out of favor with body builders. It was all leg press. Yeah, and it was like, it was like durian yights, it was all machines. It was all like press. Yeah. And it was like Dory and Yates's little machines. It was all like, yeah.

Nobody did squat. What do you think about, and I've heard, one of the most compelling arguments that I've heard with lower body exercises, and again, we're speaking generally here, because when you, when you look at the individual, anything can change, okay? It could all change, right?

But when we're talking generally, I've heard the argument that split stance exercises are superior to bilateral lower body exercise like squat. So like lunges, bulgurian split stance squats, all the variations are better because it more simulates locomotion, running. You always have one leg in front, one leg in a bat type of deal. What do you think about that, that type of argument? I would tend to agree and lean more towards that. Like, yeah, I would agree with that because from a pure efficiency perspective, you are going to get a lot more of a tension on that muscle on both the front leg and the real leg, depending on how you set things

up. I think that's one thing people really don't realize a lot is like, say, on a split squat or a ballgara in split squat, especially that real leg is working a ton. It's not just working, it's working in a range of motion in that fully stretched position for the quad anyway, that you don't really get on many other exercises for the lower body. And if all you ever did for the rest of your training career was just a bilateral squat where you didn't get that fully stretched lengthened position on that real leg who knows, but I would I wouldn't be surprised if there were some deficits then in mobility because of that. Yeah. I'm also thinking of the counter Yeah, for origin and the and the stability, right? Yeah, and that's where we've got to you know

weigh these things up is we get the extra benefits of a stability challenge. We get the extra benefits of maybe this, maybe replicating the locomotion and those things will obviously compromise the overall weight. That compromises the overall stability. So the actual benefit is also part of a drawback. So it comes down to weighing things down. But I'll say for sure in terms of how I program for myself and for most people on a very general perspective, I would rather they would do a split squat variation or a single leg unilateral variation

as opposed to a bilateral if I just had one exercise to get it. If I had to pick, I'll say it's more superior. It's a lot more accessible as well for a lot of people and yeah, they're going to use less weight but Regardless of the goal apart from pure power lifting When is wise or when is weight ever the real thing we should be striving towards like lifting sheer heavy heavy weights As long as you're exposing your joints your muscles to the required resistance trim Seem to significant amount of tension the weight on the bar is less and less relevant Because yes, you might lift less weight, but you're still exposing your muscle potentially to the similar amounts of forces.

Yeah, and I think in the beginning of training, measuring your strength and getting stronger is much more important than it is later on. What I mean by that is now my training, at some point you hit a ceiling, you're not going to, otherwise I'd be squatting 5,000 pounds. I've been working out for so long, right? So at this point, I'm not looking at the weight, but when I first start training someone, if I get them to add three reps, five reps, 10 pounds,

they go from 100 pound to 150 pound squat, a huge benefits. You know, when you're starting it after a while, it's more important to look at other things. So I agree with you. I think it's pretty nuanced. What do you think about the functional versus just hypertrophy argument that we see so much in on social media?

Like, is that I've heard people say, just getting bigger and stronger makes you more functional. Then I've heard other people say, and I agree with both to some extent. And I've heard other people say, well, no, the specificity of a functional exercise, what makes you more functional in the real world type of deal. Like, what do you think about that conversation? I definitely lean more towards the lens of saying, whatever helps you build muscle mass, build strength, build coordination,

build all these different aspects that we need to be focusing on, whatever helps you do that as efficiently as possible is gonna make you more functional. It's not about necessarily recreating everyday life motions or in some way preparing you for what you're doing in your sport because the things that I hope will help prepare you the most for you, it's always being more muscular, stronger, more mobile, more agile, and I won't necessarily come from one specific movement.

It's all or even one specific class of movement. It's going to come from the way that you set up your entire broad context of your training program. I'm making sure you're hitting all these qualities and having deficits anywhere. Like even, like we can say that maybe, I don't even know, maybe we could, potentially say that split squat is more functional than a back squat in inverted commas there

because of the extra stability demand, which makes it more applicable to athletic populations. But again, that's looking at things through a vacuum. And are we ever really gonna give our athletic client or our gen pop client and just one exercise? The discussions, we'll talk about that and it's cool to have those discussions but realistically in the real world,

we're never gonna give them just a back squat or just a split squat or just some rotational med ball throw kind of thing in a lunch stance. We're gonna give them a whole host of things. What makes things functional or not is not the one exercise, but the application in a broader sense of a program. And that's where people are missing the forest

for the trees. They're focusing on having these arguments about saying, hey, squats aren't functional, split squats are better. Doing it with a barbell held overhead and that position is gonna be even more function. Doing a bounce going on boasts or even more function as they're, well, who the fuck cares about that?

Like, you're not gonna give them just one exercise. Yeah. But it looks cool for Instagram. Yeah. It looks cool for Instagram to have those, it's got to be like, yeah, this is the most functual move in ever. You know, there's,

it highlights too what we talk about all the time so much is that in the park that I can't stand about our space, is we tend to get in these camps. Yeah. You know, like on the crossfitter, on the body builder, on the power lifter, it's like, fuck, why wouldn't you use all the techniques from all those guys? Yeah, it didn't make martial arts teach us a lesson. Yeah, I mean, on the bodybuilder, on the power lifters. Like, fuck, why wouldn't you use all the techniques

from all those guys? Yeah, it didn't make martial arts teach us a lesson. Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, yeah, I gotta know all this stuff. You know, I heard, so Justin was on a podcast recently on Joe to see, no, what's the thing? For Joe and Frank goes podcast. So with that, yes. Yeah, very, very good discussion.

And one thing that I think was an excellent point was how they brought up the skill required to do a particular lift that made the curve or the learning curve maybe so long that it may not be worth doing that particular exercise for an athlete because they're about to go into season. For example, you take a young athlete and you're like, okay, power cleanser great for power, but we got three months to train, to get into season and I'm not even, I I'm gonna barely get you to do just the barbell with the power clean because it's so technical.

So instead we're gonna do kettlebell swing or we're gonna do a trap bar deadlift, maybe jump or something like that, right? So that's another part of this conversation that changes everything. So for example, I'll give you an example. I've seen studies where they measure muscle activation and they'll compare two exercises that are similar,

but one, there's far more skill involved. So give you an example, a pull down to the front versus a pull down behind the neck. Okay. Both very similar, okay? But they'll show in these studies and they'll take 20 college aged males with some exercise experience, what they say,

which means that they may be played sports. And they'll say, oh, the pull down to the front activates the lats more than they pull down the back. And they say, which means that they maybe played sports. And they'll say, oh, the pull down to the front activates the lats more than the pull down the back. And I say, maybe because I know a behind the neck pull down is require so much more skill that you'd have to practice it for a while to really connect and be able to activate the lats, you know, with that particular exercise. Whereas if you pull down the front, you're going to turn it on much easier. So that's another part of this whole conversation that I think is really interesting.

And we don't really consider that when we have these kind of discussions in debate. Yeah, I think, I mean, in terms of being a coach, that's a big part of the whole thing, especially with athletes, you have to structure, what do I do that's going to be the most effective in that time sequence where it's going to adequately prepare them in the best way possible,

where I'm like assessing risk reward, each one of these exercises that we're gonna program, how long does it take for me to implement this skill? How much is that skill gonna apply to the field? And like you're kind of like, really like going through the whole host of like, what it is, what's the best plan and what for this group of kids specifically too.

So not just like in general, which I think that a lot of coaches, we get into the general side of things way too often where we're not really looking at needs. Like there was so many needs specifically where hit flexors and we need strengthening there. And like we need to mobilize certain joints because people are dropping like flies.

And so I think like there's so many nuances to a lot of these conversations that like you know plug and play that person specifically into like a hypertrophy setting and what their goals are like and determined to just like make maximize that opportunity may look completely different than you know your athlete's experience, your mom's experience. So I think that we need to talk about these things a lot more because people don't need to understand there's so many different formulas and past people can go with training. Absolutely.

And there's not even beyond that, there's also a whole lot of, I mean there's a whole bunch of confusion. And a lot of it comes from people really don't have the skillset or the knowledge, which is completely fine to interpret what these things really mean, like taking something like even like a lot of things as an activation, they're using EMG as a test and like, oh, how good is EMG for really measuring what's happening within the muscle? It's going to

tell you it's some elective activity activation, but does that translate to an exercise being say better than another one for activating your lats or glutes? There's a lot of flaws there in terms of what actually means for muscle building or for strength building or actual tension being placed on the muscle and had muscle as if they were produced forts where the electroactivity doesn't necessarily translate to all of those things. No, I'll give you an example Eugene. Wearing a weight belt activates your core as much or more than not wearing a weight belt. So somebody may see on a study like that.

So someone may look at that and be like, oh, a weight belt. I mean, they said it was going to weaken my core, but no, it's going to make it stronger. But what you don't realize is wearing a belt, your core activates differently. You push out against the belt to create stability. Whereas when you don't wear a belt, it kind of braces. So you actually teach yourself a different way to stabilize your core if you always wear a belt versus if you don't wear a belt, it kind of braces. So you actually teach yourself a different way to stabilize your core if you always wear a belt versus if you don't. Those studies, those EMG studies would not tell you that.

It would just say, oh look, you activate your core and wearing a belt, so it's totally fine. And that's the tricky part because then most people, like you're all might have this knowledge how to interpret that, but most people after they don't, they don't understand what these differences are because it does take, you know, a a fair amount of experience a fair amount of background knowledge Or maybe bar mechanics or anatomy to understand. Oh, what is actually going on and why does the EMG results show this or the other and also people really One thing that I don't know is but I was just stuck at asking us to why is the result showing as it is Yeah

Which is a shame because that's where all the arguments come from. That's really debates. It's like well We're debating we're probably on the exact same page. We just have different levels of understanding or interpretations of it. And it's... Well, so my question to you is because, you know, you are on social media, you communicate to a pretty large audience.

This is something that we early on decided that we were going to focus on because it's really easy to get caught up in the weeds and in the nuances. When I'm talking to someone like you, great discussions, we can do that. But when we communicate, we're community to a general audience. So we're very, we talk about this all the time.

We're very careful what we communicate because we know we're talking to millions of people and we don't want to send the wrong message. For example, the squat isn't great for everybody conversation. Now we just had a great discussion about it, but we're very careful to not communicate that in a way to where the kid listening now has an excuse

to not practice barbell squats. Oh, those are hard. I'm just gonna do leg presses all the time then because that's a great exercise. How do you, is this something that you have to think about as well? Because otherwise we're kind of in an echo chamber. Like I'm just talking to other trainers and coaches

and I'm not reaching the average person and I don't wanna confuse the average person by focusing too much on this kind of an echo chamber, like I'm just talking to other trainers and coaches, and I'm not reaching the average person. And I don't want to confuse the average person by focusing too much on this kind of stuff. It's incredibly challenging. That's one thing I respect about you guys. A lot of these you guys are always, you know, you're doing that line, you're doing best to spread good information, and you also respect that you can't always go into the nuances on social media. It's usually why you have your podcast where you can really discuss things in a lot

more detail. Because yeah, it's a nightmare. It's a daily throw every post I'll make is like, hmm, I remember the first post that I did that triggered you guys. There's about the barbells a few years ago. And you had a discussion about it. I thought, you know what? What you guys said is absolutely correct. It was refuting a lot of what I said in terms of like you were saying, look, you've done this post and it's correct, but it's also, it's gonna create that excuse for people to not push hard on a barbell, like,

so I said, you know what, that's right. And I haven't, and I should have specified that as an extra disclaimer and extra nuance is like, hey, this is not excuse to, it's not train hard and just do leg press instead, or just do machines instead of squats, but I didn't do that. But then I't do that.

But then I changed it up. I said, you know what, I take that on board. That was my bad, where I was too hot-headed and just jumped into this one nuance without talking about the general impact it'll have on the wider audience. And that's where I still do talk about the, I guess, downsides in inverted commas to barbell squats over other movements. But I am always a lot more careful now to say hey As much as I think this is some of the features of a barbell squat that may be advantageous and disadvantageous

It's not an excuse for you not to push hard Yeah, it's not a cop out for you to just do a leg press on though. You have a large audience of very also very technical experienced trainers where you know we have those as well. But when we talk to them, we're really talking to more general audience. Yeah, and we're talking to them more about how to communicate to their clients. Yeah. I'm not going to get into the super intricate details of the physiology and science of whatever. Not because I don't think it's cool. I love it. If I talk to someone like you, I'll talk to you for hours about shit like that. But just because that's what we've decided.

Because otherwise you're screwed. If I communicate to those people you, I'll talk to you for hours about shit like that. But just because that's what we've decided. Because otherwise you're screwed. If I communicate to those people, there's going to be a whole bunch of people over here that are going to read into it wrong and be like, oh, I'll give you an example. Here's a silly example. Studies show that a cold therapy post workout will blunt the muscle building signal a little bit. Now you're going to get a bunch of kids who are like, no cold therapy because I want to maximize muscle growth. So well, if you're teetering on the line of over training, it can actually probably help

because you recover a little faster, less inflammation. Maybe blunts the signal, but maybe that's what you need because you're constantly over training yourself and so they'll actually help you train harder and whatever. So, this kind of stuff is like constant. We got to go back and forth and kind of, but you have a large audience. I noticed with your post, really smart technical coaches. So, it's like, I can feel how you have a tough time. I got to talk to them, but then. Yeah, it's tricky because over the last probably two or three years, since I was last year, actually, is been a big shift, where probably maybe 80% a few years ago

was very smart technical coaches, and they're still around, I hope, most of them, I don't know. Oh, you're on FOIL, blocked me by now, you know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, man. My social media across all the platforms has grown a lot more, and now I've got a lot more of a general audience as well,

and now I'm learning how to navigate those people. And it's a continual learning process. Hang on, I've got to now speak to these people as well. And make sure that they can understand it. And they're not getting the wrong message as well. From a lot of my posts, which in the past were a lot more technical. And now I'm saying, hey, how do I make sure that these, this audience doesn't feel alienated or confused, which is a big part, which is a big fear of mine from what I post.

Because yeah, it's, it's, it's, and that's hard to do on social media. I think you do a good job. I mean, we talk about you a lot on the show. I think we've plugged you at least five to six times on here where we've talked about your post. Well, what it does is it creates great conversation because I do think that you attack

really difficult, nuanced, you know, thoughts that trainers and coaches have. And I love the way you put it, because every time you put it, I go like, he's right. So I'm not gonna say he's wrong with what he say, but this is how I would be saying this is where I'm, I have a different opinion on it, but I appreciate that about you.

Like I think you do a really good job. I'd say you're one of the better people. A for sure. Thank you. And you don't get offended if I, no, I hate you. Yeah, I want you to. I want that.

Like you guys say, you don't want to echo chamber. You don't want people just always saying, yes, you're so good. Preach. Yeah, preach. Keep going. Yeah, say it loud if people in the back. Oh my gosh.

It's like, that's great. I'm always going to love that. I'm always going gonna respect that. But it's important to be able to have discourse where if someone has a different opinion thing, you know what, maybe you should have said it this way and said, maybe you could have worded this a bit differently or you know what, you completely fucking wrong.

You know, sometimes I liked, this happens on our show a lot. Like people think that, Sal and I don't like each other or that like people get mad at me. I wish you just shut up and let Sal talk. Oh my god. And a lot of times I will challenge something of his, that I actually totally agree, but I actually, because I respect his ability to articulate his point, which I think you do

a really good job also. So sometimes people misunderstand me, I'll challenge a post or I'll challenge something he says, not necessarily because I disagree because I think where you're going is so good and I want to challenge you so you never take anybody else's soul. People can enjoy that conversation and learn that way because I know there's somebody who's thinking what I'm about to go say. What about this? So it's not always, I'm always attacking him or sometimes I just, yeah, I just want to keep

you going in that direction because I know that you have a lot to say about that point and that dialogue, I think people will learn the nuances of both sides and then from there, hopefully they can take that information and go, oh, this is how it applies to me. You know, I've wanted to ask you because you're definitely a science-based individual

in terms of your opinions and kind of what you talk about right about. And the challenge sometimes with that is our space is the science hasn't yet caught up to many people's experiences. Now, not somebody that's going to say anecdote outweighs evidence or science. However, and I'll use another example. In some cases, I'll take anecdote. And what I mean by that is, because before everybody freaks out,

I'll give you a great example. So if you look at wellness, and you look at herbal treatments for inflammation, or headaches, or PMS, or nausea, or whatever, you have ancient, old, thousands of years old practices, where it's like Chinese medicine, or a Vedicic medicine who they didn't use a scientific method but they used let's say ashwaganda for stress relief for hundreds and hundreds of years and up until recently we now have studies showing ashwaganda be quite effective for stress relief over the last maybe 10 15 years but before that it was zero studies but

our Vedic medicine this medicine said this is amazing and it was literally hundreds of years of anecdote. And in those cases, I'd say, you know what, I like the anecdote because when you're looking at five, six hundred years of people using it, they tease out a lot of stuff and there's some truth there, type of deal. And we see that with exercise too, and I'll give you an example with fitness. We were told forever that lightweight and high reps doesn't really build lots of muscle. Lots of bodybuilders are like, no, it builds lots of muscles. You can do 20, 30 reps and you'll build muscle. And then you have people say, no, it doesn't. Well, now we have studies showing you off. You train with high enough intensity, the high reps will also build muscle. So now the science finally matches the anecdote. Do you have any

any examples or how do you navigate this where you know through experience, you know through training lots of people. This is probably what the deal is, but I have no nothing supporting it, or maybe even there's some science that counters it, but that is completely different from my experience. It's a tricky one. It's a very, very tricky one. And I think first of all, the most important thing that we need to do on any topic, whether it's like the A of A, Vedic stuff, the supplemental stuff, the nutrition stuff, where it's like fasting or ketogenic diets or veganism or whatever, like I shouldn't say, they're more like plant based diets, but that's different to a vegan diet.

There's going to be a lot of anecdotes that are going to, from thousands of years of experience, where you say, yeah, probably this is better, or this is very beneficial. But until it's been rigorously tested, this is where we have the scientific method. We can say that they might have some benefit, but the danger is comes from when we make bold, sweeping, definitive statements about it, saying, ah, say Ashwagandha, let's say there is,

and a growing amount of research supporting its efficacy and its benefits for inflammation, for thyroid health, for sleep and recovery. And let's say that wasn't around just yet. Say we're just going off all the A of A, the Canadian, the ancient Chinese medicine. We could still say, yeah, it's probably, it's got a good chance to be helpful because it has thousands of years backing it up.

And that's part of being an evidence-based practitioner as well, is being able to use anecdotal evidence and use it in your decision-making and how to apply to the client. The only thing that I would mention there is just saying, just be mindful of making any sweeping statements that aren't completely holistically evidence-based through it has been rigorously tested because I think it creates this false sense of what you must do or what you are lacking. And it becomes almost, it can be used very maliciously in a marketing way or in a salesy way saying, hey, this is the ashwagandha that you need to take to fix your sleep or this is the exercise you have to do to be able to fix your posture or whatever

it is. I know that's one that I've already... I will get through it. Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry. I've been a great showy guy. Yeah. No, I did an example of what you're saying.

But when first comes to mind is maybe marketing yourself as a liver guy and biting into all these raw organs, trying to claim that that is going to help that specific organ in your body. But I'm not going to disagree with you yet. I agree with what you're saying, but I'm going to say this. They do the same thing with scientific studies because there are studies like, I could pull up 10 articles right now that say compound and chocolate shown to burn body fat or some stupid shit.

And what they'll do in the study is they'll take one part of it and they'll extrapolate, oh, this burns body fat. Or fasting, better for fat loss because it increased fat oxidation, which at the end of the day doesn't make a difference because it's the total calories type of deal. And here's again, some of the issues I have with people

who are not science-based, but science-bound. I'll give you some great examples. So I've been, I had the luxury of one point, I had a wellness studio. I was a trainer at Bro, total, like, lift weights, knackers, calories, but I had the pleasure of working with people who worked in wellness and they were way ahead

of what was popular. And I remember when they would talk about leaky gut syndrome, okay? Leaky gut syndrome. And the medical community and the scientific community laughed at them. Leaky gut syndrome, this is so dumb, this is bullshit. What are you talking about?

And they would, and they were all about it. Well, guess what? Now they call it intestinal hyperpermeability. This is the medical term now because they've now identified. A little bit of my brand. Right, here's another one, adrenal fatigue. Okay. Lots of people making fun of adrenal fatigue, laughing at it.

Now, what the wellness people had right were the symptoms. What they had wrong was explaining why your adrenals get fatigued. That's not really what's happening. You have an imbalance between your HPA axis, right? That's actually what's happening. But the symptoms were real and the treatments that the wellness people were actually legit.

That's now what they'll recommend for HPA axis, this function. So I think it happens on both sides and both sides can use, like you can use one scientific article done on 15 people, you know, college age males, all athletically, whatever, you know, experience. They'll extrapolate that. Here's your headline, boom, take this supplement. It's amazing. Resvera, troll, lengthens, your telemiers will make you live longer, whatever. But then you also have the

people on the other end who say, ancient wisdom says, you know, if you eat this herb and, you know, shine your butthole to the sun or whatever the latest thing is, it's going to improve your health or whatever. So I think it happens on both sides. This is what makes our space so frustrating. It is so frustrating. And that's where eventually, it's like people like Dr. Andy Galpin. Have you had him on the show before? Yeah, yeah, he's good.

He's good. Because he really goes into breaking down mechanistically, what's happening within the body? How does the physiology of the human body work? Like what are the fundamental biochemical processes? Here is how it works. And then you can then filter in as, okay, because this is how the human body works. Here is how this compound or this stimulus of training

or whatever, here's how it may interact or here's how it makes complete nonsense. Like if somebody told me, oh, hey, can't attend as a great fat burning supplement. So he is the latest fat burning supplement's going to help me. I'll get caught up in that. If I don't understand the deeper layer of the biochemistry and science of how fat loss really occurs,

and he's a great guide explaining that. I think that's where this is where a lot of the confusion comes from from people is they don't understand that deeper layer of just, yeah, how does stuff work? And then why do the things that we take potentially work or not work? Or why, so my favorite is, there's certain bro science things

that the way that they explained it was wrong, but the results actually worked, and it was because of a behavioral adaptation that nobody really explained. Like, fasted cardio. Fasted cardio, wake up first thing in the morning, do your cardio, you burn more body fat, we adaptation that nobody really explained. Like, like, fasted cardio, fasted cardio. Wake up first in the morning, do your cardio, you burn more body fat, we know that's baloney.

However, when I would have people do fasted cardio, I understood that it just got them to move more. They'd wake up first in the morning, do a little extra activity, and it worked. The other one is drinking a gallon or more water a day, right? We know studies will show that, except for people who sweat a ton, and endurance athletes, doesn't really make that more water a day, right? We know studies will show that, except for people who sweat a ton, and endurance athletes doesn't really make that big

of a difference, half a gallon gallon, whatever. But I knew that when I told my clients drink a gallon of water every day, they drank less soda and wine and juice, and they really had no time to drink anything else. And so they would lose weight. They'd eat ten more calories. And people would hear that and be like,

oh, that's not science based, that's not evidence based, what you're doing. But actually, true evidence based practice isn't just saying, hey, the research shows you've got to have one gallon of water per 24 hours to increase your telemiers or whatever, make it deep longer. But true evidence based practice is using scientific data to the best of our knowledge, which is always going to be, always going to be behind, because that's how the scientific process

works. It's going to be a little bit delayed, but it's also using anecdotal evidence. And then finally, it's also applying it to the context of the client and their behavior. So that's a true evidence-based process doesn't neglect any one of those, doesn't hyper-focus on one of the more. The mistake some people make is they just focus purely on anecdotal, or they focus purely on trying to make the behavior change, who are understanding some of the science, or some of the anecdotal, and letting it all influence the true evidence-based practice. But that's a big thing, like, yeah, science bound, versus maybe science-based, or science-influenced,

and evidence-based. They're all slightly different, thanks. Yeah, totally. I just learned later on that training, and again, this is general population. So when I'm working with a body builder and athlete, or somebody that's super neurotic, and gonna do everything I tell them, totally different, when I'm working with the average person, it was all behavior-based.

Like, the mechanistic actions of diet and exercise, if I focused on that with them, or at least focused on teaching that, was a waste of time. Like, I would know that, but what I did is I always worked on behaviors always because that's where all behavior based creatures. And you tell the client, you know, count this, do that, add up this, and they'll do it for three months and then they're off. But if I say something like, hey, eat as much as you want, just don't eat heavily processed foods. And they're like, oh, cool. I get to eat as much as I want. Just don't eat heavily processed foods. They're like, oh, cool. I get to eat as much as I want.

And then they eat 600 calories less a day because that's what happens when you don't eat heavily processed foods. All right, let's go to posture. Because that post was great because it really got a good discussion going. But your original post was basically, and this is social media.

So I know part of what you're doing is like, you get attention, let's start the conversation. You said something like, if your trainer or coach is doing exercises to correct your posture, they're full of shit, they don't know what they're talking about. So explain what you mean by that exactly.

And what you're seeing out there that promoted it. Yeah. So, this is what I hope I paraphrased. No, yeah, you have, yeah, pretty much. It's just like, because I, one of my biggest pet paves within this industry, especially the more I paraphrased. No, yeah, you have, yeah, pretty much. It's just like, because I, one of my biggest pet peeves within this industry, especially the more I get,

like Deepra got a few years ago when I was in the, in the very professional space and clinician space, and even more now in the gen pop, so I see what a lot of the gen pop people are being exposed to, is the misinformation when there is very good evidence on both sides around something like Post-Gen, it's diagnosing people and saying, ah, you've got anterior pelvic tilt. Ah, you have chifosis.

Ah, you have Lordosis. Ah, you have this. This is why you're in pain. This is why you shouldn't be doing this exercise. You don't meet the requirements for this exercise. And it's usually, usually, from a well-meaning place. Because you want people to be lifting as safely as possible and want them to be able to use good technique to be able to load up their muscles to get stronger with some kind of longevity.

And I respect that. So we'll come back to that as well. But the pet peeve that I have is when people take this and a lot of very big influencer accounts, take this notion and extend it first so, hey, you have this wing scapula, you have this slight scoliosis, you have this leg length discrepancy, you have anterior pelvic tilt, you are now broke and you've gotta fix that. You've gotta use these 10 stretches a day, this mobility, do you wanna do this exercise, you gotta do this before you can squat.

And what this does is intentional or not, but it creates barriers. It creates big barriers for the very people that many of us are trying to help, which is the gen pop. Not even the nuanced high level athlete. It takes, now if you take the Gen Pop clients, if they're now thinking, oh my God, I've got these four postural deficiencies, these issues in my body, and I need to do this half hour,

even 10 minutes mobility routine before I can even train and lift in the gym. Now that's an extra barrier. And then when they're lifting, they're thinking, am I really, am I really lifting correctly now that I've got all these issues. I've got this anterior pelvic tilt. I've got this chifoces. I have this forward head. I've got this XYZ. Am I in danger just be me being in the gym? Am I ready to be lifting with this kind of exercise? And it creates a lot of extra stress and extra fear that for most people in the gen population, it's unmoiranted, especially when you start to look at what's evidence shows, not just scientifically, but also anecdotally,

when it comes to things like posture, when it comes to things like the individual variances that apply across every single person, even like the four, five have many people are in here right now, all of us, we're all going gonna have very, very different postures. We're all gonna have very, very different displays of pain, of mood, of psychology, but taking it just by mechanically, we're gonna have very different post and very different lifting techniques as well.

Where there's gonna be some co-inality around, there's gonna be ranges that we stay in, but there's a very good chance that if we all go through different postural assessments, we will be showing up with at least three if not a dozen different deficiencies or things that could be improved more. And that can create a lot of psychological fear and a lot of barriers to exercise. And then when you look at it from a pain perspective, somebody was dealing with an injury

or they were dealing with something like lower back pain and they went to go see a clinician who said, ah, your lower back pain is because of your anterior pelvic tooth and it's because of your weak core and it's because of your chifosis. Now this creates even more fear and in terms of what influences pain, psychology is probably one of the biggest rocks that people aren't looking at trying to invest and trying to LA when it comes to improving people's symptoms of pain, because of how complex this whole process is. And that's my big take on that, is like,

yeah, I care about posture, I care about technique, because I know that, let's say we're doing a deadlift. For example, I know that a very rounded back Jefferson curl for it is Jefferson curl isn't not a bad exercise, but if I'm trying to do what I would do on a conventional deadlift back Jefferson curl. Yeah. Jefferson curl is not a bad exercise, but if I'm trying to do what I would do on a conventional deadlift with Jefferson curl, I'm probably gonna have a bad time. I'm probably gonna have an issue with my overall efficiency,

my ability to handle load and tolerance, all that kinds of things, but I wouldn't necessarily say one is good or bad. I just say look, they're for different purposes. Yeah. I would say, yeah. Yeah, you know, so I've worked with some really, really good physical therapists. Wait, I think say. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I've worked with some really, really good physical therapists.

I think generally are probably some of the best correctional exercise specialists, generally speaking. And their assessments are never just posture, right? They'll do that, but then they'll take person further through movement and identify, you know, what causes pain, how the person feels, what is where they're strong, where they're weak, where they lack mobility. Here's the challenge with pain, and here's my issue with studies on pain.

Pain is probably, God, it's one of the most complex subjective things we could measure in science, because you have the signals of pain which are objective, so we can measure your pain, your pain receptors, and what your brain is sensing and what's happening, but what we can't measure, which is a subjective part, is your experience of pain? This is where everything gets really, really weird.

Like, there's really good studies that'll show that people with low back pain, lots of people with low back pain, the low back pain goes away when they go on SSRI drugs. So they did no exercise, they did no correctional exercise, they didn't improve their fitness, they went on an antidepressant, my low back pain is a lot better.

We have really good evidence showing that trauma can cause physical pain, for example. We have lots of evidence where like I could take 100 random people on the street, do an MRI, and I would probably see two or three times as many discs that were not in right position, then I would with people who actually have pain from that.

That happens all the time. Or you have people with pain, you do imaging, you do everything, movement, and you're like, everything looks great. What the hell's going on? So this is where I have a challenge with studies that show, there was one studies, my favorite one, I don't know if we're familiar with this,

where they did knee surgeries on half the people, and the other half the people, they actually cut the knee open and then soda back up did no surgery. They had similar results at the end of the study. So the people who thought they had surgery, now I'm not saying knee surgery is a waste of time, but this does illustrate the challenge of like using pain as a measure, well, correcting posture, quote unquote, waste of time, because this study shows that, I mean, wow, that's really tough.

That's really tough, because in some cases, it is movement. In other cases, it might just be the person feeling more confident, it might just be overall fitness, or it might be the empowerment of feeling like they're doing something positive. Well, I want to sum up your argument just so I'm clear with it. In terms of your issue is mainly the diagnosis in terms of what they're sort of pin pointing in terms of like, well now I have this sickness, right? Like we go to the doctor and you feel these certain symptoms

and now suddenly you have this, oh, okay, I'm this person to identify as this type of as sickness versus you don't have any problem with the actual addressing the mobility side of it and gain traction in the joints and actually getting somebody in the right sort of stack where we can now perform movements more effectively and efficiently. Is that correct? Yeah, because yeah, from a purely biomechanical perspective, there's always going to be better positions

we can tend towards or trend towards to help us lift the heaviest weight with as much volume frequency and tens as we can for the longest amount of time possible. That's what we should be striving towards. That all look different person to person. It's always going to be then. Yeah, my biggest thing is this hyper focus

of on the diagnosis and saying like, you're fragile and that you're broken, that you're fucked up because a lot of the times, what I see is it's being used to sell something. Yeah, that's good. Well, I mean, off air, we were talking about somebody in particular that is exactly like that. They use, I mean, they're fear-mongering, right?

They use, you're broken. I have the remedy to fix you. If you need to do this before you can do X, Y, Z. Knowing that, but then also being somebody who is pro, what Justin was saying, as far as getting the joints to be more mobile, how do you reconcile that when you're, say, you're training a client and you're getting... It was a protocol, look like I guess, in terms of addressing glaring issues versus just kind of working on strength.

Yeah, so let's take a specific example to help people visualize it. Let someone comes in and they want to deadlift. And they can't deadlift off the ground with good technique from a deadlift perspective. Like the back's really rounded. And I know from anecdotes and from the science that having a rounded back,

even a lumbar spine in motion in deadlift isn't gonna necessarily cause you pain and make you burst into flames. I probably am going to be mindful about how I load that long term and how I progress then, how much frequency I give that person, and I do want to get them lifting with a straighter back over time, because that will mean that from a mechanical perspective, they can handle more load, more frequency, more efforts. But if I had that client coming in and I saw around to their back and I saw that they were losing posture in that, they ran it up a back and they just even lower back around

I said, okay, I'm not gonna tell that person that it's good or bad. I'm gonna say great, cool. In my mind, what I'm gonna be mindful of doing then is being mindful of the load that I use with them, the reps that I use, the range of motion that I use, the speed that I use, and the need to have much, I push them on that movement. Knowing that from a biomechanical perspective in a very vacuum sense, it's going to be loading

their discs more, which is not bad, it just means they've got lower tolerance. And that's how I would never get that. I wouldn't, I wouldn't even have the discussion where I'd say, this is bad and it's dangerous, what you're doing right now is not ideal. I'll just say, hey, for us to be able to handle the load that I want to give you, that I know that you're capable of, and for us to be able to give you the reps,

the intensity, the explosiveness, the power that you need, I need to get you over time moving into a better position. I'll then modify that with that, and they're so telling me that it's good or bad. So let them lift. Why create the extra fear and stress around how they're currently moving, which they can't fix? Because it will take time. It's a skill.

Because it could just be a skill thing, it could be a mobility thing. But just be like, practice it more, and practice it within their current constraints in terms of how they can handle it. Knowing that I'm definitely loading their discs more than I am their muscles. So I'll change the loading parameters around

and the frequency around that. And then I'll probably give them maybe some regressed exercises as well, or other accessory movements alongside that. And that's where it becomes less about the one exercise and vacuum, but more about the whole program and how it'll fit. Yeah, I think specifically speaking with the back rounding, if you're, if it's the end range of motion for the joint and the joint is supporting the weight, that's when there's an issue. If it's not the end range and the muscles are supporting, then you're probably okay, doing certain types of exercises, even without perfect positioning. Where do you see value then in looking at someone's posture

and using that as part of your protocol to identify exercises that you may want to start with or focus on? Yeah, It's a very good question. Because honestly, I don't do much of a postural assessment. I don't do much with that whatsoever. I just make sure when I give a client an exercise, they're able to do it using the muscles that I intend and the positions that I intend them to get into.

So you're watching the movement. Yeah, look at the movement I say there. You currently, the way that you do this deadlift, it's with a round back and it's definitely learning up into vertebral discs a lot more than I would like. So I need to get you doing it from a regressed position to a point and it could be like a two-inch block pull

for that person. Not because they're a powerlifter, because they're just very immobile, I haven't moved much, I'll just start them with that instead. And I've got in my own mind, my ideal standard, which you could call an assessment of, here is what's going to biomechanically allow them to load up their hip extences the most. Here's what's going to allow them to load up their shoulders the most.

And can they get into that position? No, they can't. What if I took a neutral grip? What if I took a decrease range of motion? What if I just took a bit more time with the exercise from the learner skill and just build it out from there? But the big thing that I, mindful of just, I just don't tell, I just don't communicate,

I don't think it matters to tell them that this is good and bad and that you've currently found, this is where you should be. I'm just saying, no, you see his exercise for you right now, he's a program you gotta follow, and he is the level at which you've meant to do this movement in.

So like in a lot of the programs that I run, I have a deadlift, for example, but I'll have 10 regressions to it. I'll tell the client, pick whichever one you need to. Pick could be the most basic, regressed, low load, small range of motion exercise that mimics their hip hinge lifting carry motion, all the way up to maybe a deficit snatch grip deadlift, being the most advanced exercise. And I let them pick or I help them choose where they

currently fit in terms of their ability to load it and do it comfortably and experience the beneficial effects of lifting. And then if you can do that, great. Great. Great. And the next exercise, go to the next exercise and keep going up as they see fit. So what, so an example of like, okay, let's say somebody is squatting and their heels elevate

by the time they even get to 90 degrees. They get 90 degrees, the heels come up off the ground. Now is your answer to that to just elevate the heels and keep them squatting or are you going to address ankle mobility at all? Sorry, that's an interesting one. By elevating the heels, okay, people see that as a bandaid. That will actually improve over time their ability to push them these forward from a new logical perspective because how it shifts their

center of mass. And that will actually have a big impact on the ankle mobility as well. So I will do that, but I'll also add anything else. You know what, you can't squat right now because your heels lift off so much. I'll give you some heel elevated, maybe anterior loaded squats that will help to address that in terms of the actual squat motion, but I'll also, we'll give you some split squats. I'll give you like, if somebody can't squat past nine legaries that he was lifting off, I'm still very confident that if I give him a front foot elevated split squat and I had a very high elevation,

they'll be able to push that knee, assuming they're injury, they'll be able to push that knee very, very far forwards into that ideal position for anchor mobility, and I'll have that as their exercise. So in terms of my continuum, maybe the barbell back squat flat foot with a high bar position upright posture, that will be the gold standard in this mobility sense.

And then the most, most, most regressed exercise from that might be a very high elevation like a above your knee elevation, front foot elevated split squats, with some anterior load helps that you see my upright and really drive that knee forwards, maybe even with your elevation. And then over time, decrease the elevation,

decrease the whole front foot elevation, change the loading pattern, get them scottling on both feet, barbell on their back, flat foot, and it builds them up. What I think a mistake would be would be to say, oh, you can't squat right now. Let's keep you trying to squat unless it do all these extra mobility things as well. Because then we're adding in a whole bunch of other stuff

instead of just saying, is the issue really with the mobility? Yeah, it is. But how can we address that by not overwhelming them and make them hyper-focus on things that may be inefficient? From the efficiency perspective, so of getting your squat, I'll give you this exercise that you can execute elegantly. I always look at it from a skill acquisition, and if the client doesn't have the skill

right now, what skill do they currently have, bring it back to that, and then build them towards that ideal as well, and that may involve mobility. I liked that answer, the only thing that I found that's challenging with that and why I liked it to isolate something like that and. The only thing that I found that's challenging with that and why I like to isolate something like that and focus, like say, I would prime them before and do like a combat stretch. And the reason why I would oppose the direction that you went, because I don't disagree,

is that I found in my experience that it's hard to get a client to cue them to do what I want from the do. So if I just put them in the lunch, they'll still go to that in range that's comfortable. Yeah. And either the heel comes up, or they won't let the knee travel where I'm trying to get them to challenge and push that knee forward,

because I want, I want, I want from a neurological level to get reconnected and go, hey, I want us to be comfortable with that knee going forward. So I'm just going to focus on that, driving that knee forward, and I want you to connect. Now when we go into your exercise, I want you to think about that. I just have found I've had better success

by isolating that first and then taking it into the exercise versus just modifying the exercise and then hoping that that new modification will over time get them to do that. I like that. I think that's applicable to a lot of people. I think that's gonna work well where they, no matter how much changes you give and exercise wise, they're still going

to screw it up. It's people are fallible like that. I've found both to help you where like, they'll be some people and it usually does become the complete, complete first timer where they really just need that very low load stretch combats just help them prime that area and be, oh, this is what it feels like I have my knee going forwards. What I also find is if I elevate the heel enough, it forces any forwards on a split squat for example. And that could be, it will actually emit the exact same position of a combat stretch. If a front foot elevated, heel elevated, you can't do a front foot elevated heel squat with a sorry front foot elevated split squat with that heel elevated You can't do that and get your hamstring touching your calf without your knee traveling over your toes

Yeah, it's like it becomes kind of bar mechanically impossible unless it's really really really messed up Yeah, so you both both directions. I mean the commonality there is the time it takes for them to learn and acquire the skill of Stabiling their ankle properly. Absolutely. In that range of motion. And so it's not, again, it's a different mindset and that same angle. And if you want to add in that combatial four of the stretches, it's, I go for it. It's not going to hurt them.

It's not a negative thing. This is why I hate social media because you do a post in a video and it's like, you know, 100 words in a short video and you can't possibly explain all of this in a social media post. That's why podcasts are so great because we talk about this forever. Do you think here's something that I, it's a bit of controversy and I don't know if people

are saying this because it sounds counter and it gets attention or if they actually believe this or so. Do you think a deadlift is a good back hypertrophy exercise? So I hear people arguing, it's not a back exercise, it's a hip exercise, and I get the biomechanics, but for anybody who's ever deadlifted for a long time, I think that might disagree or at least a lot of people. What do you think about? Yeah.

So it comes down to definitions. What do we define as back? Are we talking the lats, the traps, the rhomboids? They're only ever gonna be working isometrically, they're through a very, very small range of motion. So they are gonna receive some hypertrophy stimulus because you can grow muscle isometrically, as you guys only, you guys have

a isometric-based program as well. It's like that's gonna build muscle. So of course you can. Your spinal erectors, they're definitely going through a range of motion there. They're definitely under load, they're gonna grow. And I would call them back. So I say, yeah, it's a back, up edge for your exercise.

I wouldn't categorize a deadlift as the same, that I wouldn't, if I'm, you're picking it back exercises, I wouldn't put them in the same category as a pull up or a row. Because we work in different muscles now, you know? The deadlift still does work those muscles, but it doesn't take them through the same category as a pull up or a row. Because we work in different muscles now, you know? The deadlift still does work those muscles, but it doesn't take them through the same range of motion from a movement or a hypertrophy, force-production perspective as a pull down, pull up,

row, whatever else, exercise you might want to do because it's the static exercise. So it just comes down to again the context and you want to how you define things. And if you were to completely categorize just a deadlift and say, what is the prime mover? Being what muscles contribute the most to performing that hip hinge, hip extension pattern?

It has to be the glutes, adductors, hamstrings. Bit of quads as well. But to say that it's not a back exercise is, I'd say outside's clickbait. Outside's also from poor understanding, trying to get attention. It's oversimplifying things for the sake of attention, whether it's intentional or not.

You know, it's a lot of monkey-see, monkey-do, parroting out there. Hey, this coach says it's a bad back exercise. Like, I'm gonna give people a deadlift to improve their back strength. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know what's weird about it though? I'll's like, I'm going to give people a deadlift to improve that back strength. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, you know it's weird about it though.

I'll say this. I've trained enough people to know that it is isometric in some extent. It's very limited range of motion. You can get some ramboyed in trap, you know, range of motion because you maybe you're scapular, a little more spread at the top. You're bringing it together. Your lats at the bottom, obviously, as you come up, the arms come close to the body, so there's some little bit more range of motion,

there's isometric, but man, in my experience, it's like a great, just overall muscle builder for the entire back. It might be the load. It's the load, it's 100% the load. What, show me a person who's rowing anywhere near what they deadlift or pull, doing a pull up of anywhere. So even though it's mostly

isometric or short and range of motion, I think it's the load is so dramatic that you get this incredible stimulus out of it that you just wouldn't get. What other isometric do you get where you get where it's that heavy? That's what makes it so unique and why why I do think it's such a great backside to your point you made earlier though, wearing the helmet I ever not use other exercises to come with the back. That might be the whole thing, right? The whole argument, this versus that, it's like, why not both?

Yeah, I mean, it's all those are big stuff. But I mean, I think the point of you bringing that up and why it's a good discussion for all of us to talk about is because there are people on social media that have tried to discredit it as a good back exercise and it's like, you know, anybody who's heavy deadlifted has developed it back from. What do you think about the systemic effect of some exercise? Because obviously you do an exercise as a localized effect, right?

So the target muscle hypertrophy, CNS, very targeted. But there's also kind of this systemic effect that you get like a farmer's walk, a heavy farmer's walk. Okay, I never programmed those in my workouts. I did them with clients, but I never really did it myself until maybe a few years ago, we did a program called MAP Strong that we wrote with Robert Obers, who's the strongest man competitor. And it's part of the programming because in strong man competitions, you often do a farmer's

walk, right? So it's in the program. And I did them. I followed the program. I did them. And my arms grew from doing a farmer's walk. And I don't know if it was a load or my explanation. And again, I don't think we have any science to explain this yet.

Maybe we will. But I feel like it was a systemic CNS activation. My whole body had to stay tense. And the load was so heavy. Like, what do you think about that? And is there anything that you found with clients or with yourself where kind of points to something? Well, if you want to think, I mean, you also go to going to have a genetic component.

You've got great arm cell. Sure. You really do. I mean, I feel like you could do calves and your arms will just grow up. I feel like they have one. I think that's what happens with these calves. I just grew from... So like there are four, again, reasons that we probably don't understand, or at least

I don't understand any degree, but there are going to be hyper-responsive muscle groups no matter what you do in terms of exercise. It's just having the anabolic signaling coming out from your brain and having the anabolic hormone soaking through your stomach and your neck level. Some muscles are responding. They're just going to grow, just gonna grow, like my calves, they just grow. I just grew up.

Yeah, you are. You're the cast growing right now. Like, I'm just gonna add another inch. Yeah. I'm just teaching you guys today. Thank you, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Okay, thinking back to your journey, from being just a young fitness kid to getting into coaching and acquiring all your journey, okay, from being just a young fitness kid to getting into coaching and acquiring all your knowledge. What were some of the greatest paradigm shifting moments for you as far as things that you thought to be true and then just blew your mind? Before we get there, I'll go to answer Sal's questions. Oh, okay.

Yeah, Sal's just like, come on men. Adam stopped it because he started compiling many arms. Yeah, yeah. I want to shut that down. Yeah, you don't need more than that. He just politicians to me. That's enough, that's enough. He said barely fits the door.

He's head a little more. This is bicep. And you're gonna continue by my arms. So from the, tell me more, I'll put some oil on for the next next ad break. Systemically, yeah, there's going to be some exotic, maybe a deadlift that just has such a potent stimulus on your nervous system

that just tells your entire body, hey, we've got to build some muscle. And then your body will indiscriminately just put muscle wherever it can. And it will probably bias muscle growth towards what is under the most load, which probably be in a deadlift, glutes, hamstrings, erectus,

adductors, quads, maybe. But there's gonna be some that will go to your arms, so you're dealt some eating your chest, even though they're not prime movers. And let's say that your chest is just a very good responder to muscle-building antibiotics signals. There's no reason why I can't grow a ton from a deadlift, you're despite it not being a prime mover.

I still wouldn't call the deadlift a chest-experiment. That's it. Even if someone's still with that response from it, but that's probably what's going on there. You're systemically, your brain receives a signal of saying, holy fuck, we better build some muscle mass right now. Let's just build up that machinery. And if for whatever random genetic variants you have a response in your chest, it might grow some. It might not

grow as much as your glutes, hamstrings, erectors being the prime move is there, but they'll receive some stimulus. So it makes sense to me that your arms would grow on a farmer's walk or a deadlift, despite then not going through much of a range of motion. But then the other, the next extension to that question is also going to be about, how do we about,

would you then program for you personally, would you then want to program farmer's walks on your arm day? Would you program that for everybody else, generally speaking, as an arm exercise? You wouldn't, you'll say like, if you want to grow arms, you're going to do curls, you're going to do dips, you're going to do pull-ups, you're going to do rows, you're going to

do other actual flexion movement based exercises instead. But that wouldn't discount the fact that farmers carries have all the help to have been an anabolic thing for your arms. But it just comes down to how you define that. Because if you gave everybody based on your experience, a farmer's carrier or a dead that has the azuram dayx, the size, they're probably not gonna grow, and they're probably gonna get very systemically and neurologically fatigued, which will then impact on their ability to actually create the local fatigue in the tissue

that they wanna grow. But yeah, that's a really good question and experience for yourself as well. Well, I think there's a novelty thing there too. I think because it's such a different stimulus, and I think that part of why we wrote a program that was centered around isometrics. I also remember during COVID, you were doing much stuff.

And I remember that was another time that I was pointing people in your direction because I think isometrics have fallen out of favor. Yeah. Nobody talks about them and there's tremendous benefit. All the studies around around Krone. Yeah, and so there's a lot of your traditional programming that's done that's out there online

just doesn't include a lot of isometrics. And there's an isometric component to you doing farmer carries and you're doing it very loaded so I think that being novel and getting forced to man that you're trying to see in versus so I think there's your your point to the genetic component the overall systemic that you guys are saying and then also the novelty of probably not training a lot of isometric like exercises. I really like your answer. And you know, back to isometrics,

it's hard to find actually a training modality with many studies. Isometric has been studied heavily. Especially in the Soviet Union, this is obviously before the Iron Curtain came down. They used them quite a bit to train their Olympic, they dominated obviously in strength sports. And it did fall out of favor.

And I think it's because you don't use any fancy equipment for it. But I mean, I can't think of a safer, it's actually one of the- Hard to say it with that. It's one of the safest ways to exercise. And although it doesn't, the strength gains from it don't continue,

because it kind of plateaues very quickly. The strength gains are very fast initially. Yes. And it doesn't require... It's like a question. It's like a question. It requires a degree carryover. It's a force transfer.

Yeah, and it doesn't require a ton of recovery. So it's like this wonderful tool you can add to your routine and see gains right away, but it did fall out of favor. I think it's the equipment thing. It just, you can't sell a lot of fat. What do you think? I think one thing it's equipment where there are a couple of really cool device, I've just need the names of them. I've got to find them. These isometric

devices we can set up for every single master group, different isometric movements. They usually, but it's usually geared more towards rehabilitation. Yeah. Like a lot of the research that people use for isometric and a lot of the applications, unfortunately, it's it's it's hyper focused on the safety of them. Yeah. Because they are a great regression for movements. And then people forget that hang on. That's also a great way for strength athletes to improve unfortunately, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a true thing. It's really hard. It's really hard. He's just a 10 second max hold. You gotta have a gun to get to really get to that complete max output. It's challenging.

And I think that's part of where it falls out of favor. There's a lot of just different variables there. But I think probably a big one is honestly equipment and the ability to make a sales thing out of it. Yeah. It doesn't look sexy. I tell myself people on that. And what's the guy doing?

He's not moving. I think all you use was a towel, right? I use a towel. Sorry, by my't look sexy. I tell people on that. And what's the guy doing? He's not moving. I think all you use was a towel, right? I use a towel. Sorry, buy my ebook now. You got a towel, you got a gym. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you know, there's another great technique I'd love your opinion on.

I know who Paul Anderson was when the greatest waitlifters of all time. He was an American waitlifter. This guy was incredibly strong. This is pre-annabolic steroids or maybe that were, but they definitely were using what they use later on. He would do something called an Anderson squat, which we now, I think we now call it like a dead squat or whatever, but he would get, so without the, I don't know what's the term,

is it the stretch reflex or the stretch loading when you lower away and then come back up? Yeah, it's like that. Stretch reflex. Yeah. He would get under a bar already at the. Yeah, it's like that. Yeah, stretch reflex. Yeah. He would get under a bar already at the bottom and lift it from there without lowering it. Which if you've ever tried this, you're not nearly a strong as when you lower away.

And he would do this and it was one of the keys that he said to his strength. I know some athletes that do this and it's tremendous. I used it to gain literally 30 pounds on my squat years ago where I would load the bar on the bottom of the rack getting or anything Get in my position and then take off and it made my normal squat go through the roof Do you have you ever tried using these and or any kinds of variations of this type of training? What do you think is happening there? I think yeah

I've used it a lot in the past when I was doing a lot of power lifting and strength-based work And I think it has a lot of application. I mean if you look at a Had most people do like their max deadlift or close to a max deadlift, usually, say what they're saying and doing a double, a heavy true, true, rat max, usually the second rep is better than the first one. And why is that? It's usually because they've had that essential component to find a better position. And then they get because people suck. There's some energy loaded and saved and then that's the most. They must be as well. There is definitely as part of saved, and that's the best thing. They're mobbies, they're mobbies,

they're mobbies, well, they're definitely as part of that. So even if they did a complete dead stop and are like a bit of a relax, neurologically their brain knows how to get into slightly better position because of that lower rate of opponents. And then it's like, okay, now I can get into a better position for rep number two.

And even that happens to a lot of very, very, very advanced top level dead lifters, where that's their common issue is my second rep is always better than the first rep. And it's like, well, how do I do the second rep first? Just do that one instead. And that's what I think what's going on with squats is, when you start the anus and squat in the bottom there,

it's forcing you to learn positionally where the best position is because you don't get the eccentric time on the lowering phase to work that out for yourself. And then definitely there is a whole stretch reflex where you get rid of that elastic energy. So it is more of an honest squat, I guess, inverted commas. And just the amount of recruitment it takes

to go from a complete dead start in terms of the moody and recruitment, your brain has to work a lot more efficiently and effectively to go from a dead start as opposed to a head getting that lowering component. So there's a few different mechanisms going on there. What would you consider for you one of the most underrated, valuable training techniques?

Would you say it would be isometrics or is it some else? Honestly, it's been like for the last 10 years, it's been isometrics, it's been whether it's for a rehab perspective, whether it's from a conditioning, like it's a picture for like the capillaries, the blood vessels, it could be your isometrics, it's from max strength, like the Anderson style squat, or even just

a pause squat, or just even a max isometronic, like Bruce Lee style isometrics in whatever the application may be, whether it's extended for like five minutes or it's a short 10 second thing, I think isometrics are very, very under-utilized. They use a lot in very nuanced applications, like rehab or for the very elite sporting people, but the Gen Pop can benefit so much just from utilizing that, even from a technique perspective. 100% yeah, one of the easiest ways, advanced ways to do this,

and I've talked about this on the show, so I hope people try this with their home gyms, is you can literally anchor two chains into the concrete, making sure they're very, very well anchored. Colors have attachments for collars, and I could set up a barbell on a different varying length. So I could get underneath it and squat. Obviously, I'm not going to move or I could press or I could row at max effort.

The strength gains from that come so fast and furious, it's ridiculous. Like, literally if you practice that by the second week and then you go to your traditional lifts You're gonna be like ten pounds stronger. Yeah, it's incredible I mean that that was a lot of what Bruce Lee would do. Yes, it's my trick work I'm a huge fan. Well, yeah, and and that's where I like that. So I'll use a towel Just the again, you got to have a pretty long towel to be able to squat with that You better get into the grand anchored on the ground And but any like I actually use a lot of

Genastic rings the straps that's a perfect way to create an anchor part. You wrap that around yourself, put it on your shoulders, step on it so you can't lift it up and just squat or do a delft position. And that would be a similar kind of fine actually. So it will really ramp up your motor unit recruitment, which will carry over to your actual movement exercise after. Great way to very quickly supercharge your strength. Yeah, so a lot of people. Going back to the original question that I asked you that I left, you know, this is good on this topic,

like these techniques and what are some things that you've changed your mind about during your lifting career or things that were paradigm shattering for you? Yeah, biggest one, 100% conditioning. Conditioning cardiovascular work. Again, like growing up, I was a bodybuilder. And cardio is seen as a way to lose fat.

And I lost a lot of fat doing a lot of cardio. Like for my first bodybuilding show, I had to drop about about 45, 50 pounds of fat. And it was done, in my opinion, through calorie deficit, but my neck, the way that I implemented it, was doing like three hours, four hours of cardio a day. Oh my God, I am not from day one, but it started out three hours for as a cardio a day. Oh my God. Every day. Not from day one, but it started out, you know,

30 minutes a day and then it went to 40 minutes a day. And then the day an hour's kind of boring. Let's do it. Let's do an hour in the morning and let's do maybe 20 minutes at night and then it went, it got to three hours, four hours. It was not good. Somehow I balanced uni and working as a PT and my actual weight training between the, I don't know how. I don't know how. I don't know how I don't know how I don't know how

I was like hold on muscle really well No, just yeah, I lost all my muscles But you me my head like cardio is for fat loss. In the off season, when you're trying to build muscle, you're trying to build strength, you don't do cardio, you don't do conditioning work, because it's gonna decrease your gains. And then I started learning a lot more about conditioning and cardio.

And obviously the fact is like, hey, cardio is about not eliciting a calorie deficit, it's not about energy burn, it's not about fat loss, it's literally about training a cardiovascular system. Oh, beautiful. Your heart, your blood vessels, your lungs. And that has applications for muscle building. Like if you take all of us right now, instead of we wanna put on as much muscle as we can,

like we wanna get fucking jacked, I wanna put on 30 pounds in next 30 days, okay? Apart from steroids. Um, people. Yeah, that's the protocol, right? We're gonna use a lot of anodrome d-bop. That's three days, two. Yeah. Any days, in burden.

If we all have our idea of what the program or the anabolic stack or whatever would be that would help us out. But if you took all of us and put us through the exact same protocol of all those drugs and all those training, we'll get a response. But if we took our exact identical twin, but that person had a better VO2 max,

a more intricate capillary network, or more robust, heart, lung, blood vessel, all that kind of kind of questions. And he took that person and put the exact same protocol on them. I'll probably put on 60 pounds, not 30 pounds. Yeah, I love what you just said, because my issue or our issue with cardio

is making that the fundamental way that you try to lose body fat, which we've talked about many times, is really not a really good long calorie bird. Yeah, is really not a really good, long calorie burn. Yeah, it's not a really good, long-term approach. And if I really get boiled down the root of what annoys me about that, is that we value, or I should say the mainstream, values exercise based off of its calorie burn. This is how we bring the exercise for so long.

Oh, we got to burn more calories. What's the best form of exercise, the one that burns the most calories, which is terrible because we ignore the most important thing about exercise, which are the adaptations, which is what you're talking about. And I agree 100% with you. When I have better stamina, I can lift weights better. When my stamina is crap, I can't lift weights that great. Like you try to do a set of 20 reps of squats, which is great for building legs with poor stamina. You're dead, you can't do it. So I completely agree with you. So 100%.

What are your favorite forms of conditioning? Do you just steady state or do you like head or like for? Yeah, it varies. So I mean, there's so many layers to how you can program conditioning. People normally think of it as hit all this. And I think of it as being on a treadmill or maybe mix it up and go into a spin bike

or maybe mix it up and go into an air bike or a row. But really, conditioning can also be how you perform your weights. Like there's no, we identify conditioning by exercise choice of running, jogging, or cardio exercises. But conditioning should be, and determine based upon the work to rest interval, the duration,

and the overall intensity that it gives. And because of that, you can use any exercise. You can use deadly, if you can use an overhead squat or whatever. So it really comes down to how you apply the exercises. So that will then become individual dependent. What I personally will do will be based upon how it fits into what else I'm currently doing. So when it comes to programming for conditioning, the first thing I want to ask is, do I want to be,

am I focusing on this particular session? Am I focusing on aerobic conditioning or anaerobic conditioning? Because there's slightly different things in terms of the overall duration of it. And that will then determine, okay how long is it going to be, and what's the relative intensity?

That will then determine what exercises are gonna make the most sense. Like if I'm doing a, and all out anaerobic 22nd burst, like 22nds on and a minute off for like 10 sets, that's going to have a very specific anaerobic 22nd bursts, like 20 seconds on and a minute off for like 10 sets. That's going to have a very specific anaerobic condition. Dimulus on my body, it's also going to predicate me towards certain exercises where maybe something like more plyometrics exercises are a really bad choice. Because I'm going to be very sore, it's high injury risk, it's going to damage my ability to do higher frequencies of that to create more adaptations.

it's going to damage my ability to do higher frequencies of that to create more adaptations. So, and then when, will I, why would I do that over doing more of a steady state along duration? It may be because I need to improve my max power output and my ability to handle things like lactate, my ability to handle myself working at a maximum intensity under fatigue conditions. That's a very different adaptation to what I'm going to get from the zone two cardio. The low intensity stuff is going to work more on the mitochondrial side of things, going to work more on the just the overall blood flow and the stroke volume, the heart side of things, the adaptations there. So I think the mistake people make is they argue between hit or less, hit you can get the afterburn, less you're going to get the lower intensity, but the reality is you need both and they support each other. They're

going to help each other. So we should be doing plenty of both styles of training. You can't just do lists, even though it helps if you're, it's going to help you for recovery. It's going to over time, not let you learn how to push hard under a fatigue state at a maximal intensity of the max heart rate. You can only get that from doing true anaerobic intervals. And you can't even get that from doing weight lifting. You can't get that from even a hard set of like a true grinder, 15 reps at a squats, you're not gonna practically be able to do that enough

to be able to get the anaerobic stimulus that you need from just doing a few hard sets in the gym. Because technically speaking, I could do a 20 second all at first, one minute off, 10 sets, that's gonna give me the anaerobic benefits of training under fatigue conditions. I could do the same second or that first, one minute off, 10 sets, that's gonna give me the anaerobic benefits of training under fatigue conditions. I could do the same thing on a score, so I could do a 20 reps set of scores. That might take me 20, 30 seconds,

my eyeballs will be bursting out, could take a minute rest, do it again. The issue there is, as I do more sets, to commit their quiet volume, to create the adaptation for conditioning for the anaerobic stimulus, it's dangerous. It's dangerous, impractical. So eventually, whether you like it or not, conditioning for the anaerobic stimulus, it's dangerous. It's dangerous, impractical.

So eventually, whether you like it or not, we all should be doing some cardio work that is probably going to be on a cardio-based machine in the anaerobic threshold and also in that low intensity threshold to supplement and support our weight lifting because you can't get the same adaptations across all these different things from the one implement. And that's what we should be looking at. How much of that are you programming in a week or typically? Yeah, the generic answer obviously. So if I really want to draw up the adaptations to improve the benefits for recovery in a certain cycle of training for myself right now, it would be every day I'll be doing some

kind of conditioning, whether it's anaerobic or aerobic or usually flip-flop-tunes, it's been the two, so maybe three days of each a week. My weight training will take a backseat. I'm not only training twice a week for doing like pure strength work because I can't handle all the extra cardio work I'm doing. But it's okay because training two days a week, are you going to lose muscle mass? So I'm not. Such a good point that you just said that right there. Because I think everybody just adds that's the mistake that I think most people would make and then they end up losing muscle because of how much they're throwing in.

For sure, yeah. But it's like, well, what's my my priority right now? My my priority right now is to drive the cardiovascular adaptations. I need to do aerobic and anaerobic stuff. I need to do it probably most days because it doesn't take a lot of solace, it doesn't take a lot of recovery from us.

I'll do it every single day. But neurologically, I might be probably can't perform as much in my weight sessions. I'll do less there. But again, realistically, mechanistically, am I might be probably can't perform as much in my weight sessions. I'll do less there. But again, realistically, mechanistically, am I going to lose a lot of strength and muscle mass training twice a week with weights? I'm not. It's going to, at absolute worst, it might come down 10 percent, which is a little

comeback, but not. Yeah, that's the beauty of strength training is that you, you, such a small amount is required to maintain what you built versus what you did. Not necessarily true with other forms of exercise. I know with cardiovascular exercise, the more, I mean obviously you can't keep doing this but the more the better. Strength training is really interesting, especially I've been working out for so long now that I can keep muscle really easy. If I just worked out twice a week, I wouldn't lose any muscle or strength, but I wouldn't

to build any, or get to this point, which is two days a week. It's really interesting. Yeah, and Cardio is interesting as well, because it is kind of similar where, once you spend like a good four, eight, maybe 12, like block of doing this dedicated, conditioning style work, you've created changes to your heart,

like your left ventricle was grown, you've created more blood vessels, you've changed your body on a, on a certain level. That's not going to change over night either. Like, once I've done that block, even just four weeks of doing a lot of conditioning, I'll probably come back to just two sessions a week. Like, I'll do one extended, like one hour, 90 minute session, and I'll do one 15 minute anaerobic session. And that'll be enough to maintain. And then I can ramp up the weight training and a little maintain for a while. But but eventually there is going to be slow diminishing returns,

slow diminishing benefits to it and then I'll need to ramp it back up. We know for all of us training two days a week with weights is enough to maintain but for how long? If we trained just two days a week for the next five years, we're definitely going to be a bit smaller, a bit weaker at the top. So we've got to take a while. Yeah, what if I'm where is that point where, what's the minimum effective dose of cardio that I can do to maintain where I'm currently at,

and then when I see it decreasing as well, I need to add more back in again. It's always ebb and flow, push and pull. So it's programming though. Yeah, how do you feel about the, like, full body versus body parts split debate that you often see? I remember for me, that was really a game changer and we talk about on the show why. And it's not necessarily the frequency because you could do a body parts split

and still hit the body parts two or three days a week. But rather it was just the exercise selection tended to be better because I'm doing less volume per body part and if I missed the workout, I didn't miss the legs or whatever, the body parts I like to miss or whatever. So I mean, what is your experience on that, and do you have a preference?

I personally prefer for most people. This is Jen Pop and Advanced People. I usually try to trend towards more of a full body or a blended body part thing as opposed to the shoulder day, back day. And that's actually not how I grew up, but I grew up through body parts split, so I got through and bro stuff.

But then I realized, hey, it's overkill. And I'm doing 10 exercises for back. And the real good exercise, I'm pushing them all hard, but at some point the stimulus just keeps going down. The fatigue starts going up. So the whole full body or half body upper lower splits they're designed to try to find this balance between a stimulus and fatigue.

And saying, how much do we really need to stimulate muscle growth or strength or whatever the adaptation is, versus how much more what I add on that would then create extra fatigue. And that's why I think there's a magic in full body work is it forces you to really be intelligent about how you choose exercises and how you direct that hard stimulus because you only have one exercise for say back on that one day. So you've got to make sure it's a good exercise.

You wouldn't necessarily pick dead lifts for your lat lati-pertrophy on that full body workout. You think more of a pull-up, you think more of a pull-down or a row instead. And you'll do deadlifts maybe as a hip extensor posterior chain on the other full body day that you do. So it kind of forces you organically to be smarter about exercise selection and also be smarter about how you really push yourself and make sure you're giving yourself an honest effort. Agreed, yeah. I'm spoken like someone who's trained a lot of people.

Yeah. Also very practical too. You know, when you think of the average gin pop, the person who goes a whole year and doesn't miss weeks here and there of training, and if you miss a couple of days and a week, and you only got in one day, at least you got a full body routine in,

you didn't miss certain body parts, so that's what I really like. Yeah, so what it knows you the most right now about, I guess the mainstream, I don't know, social. Yeah, so what it knows you the most right now about, I guess the mainstream, I don't know, social media, fitness space, it changes all the time. So one minute they say this, and I mean, this is the popular thing.

Is there anything right now that you're seeing that's kind of popular that way you're just, you wanna roll your eyes? It's less about actual, what people are saying, because it's always gonna be a shit that pisses me off. But it's actually more about the platforms. It's more about the whole general culture of people and society as a whole on a meta level.

And honestly, it is TikTok. It's not just because TikTok's a new platform, but it's actually what I've noticed that it creates what it breeds in terms of the population. Like I can put something up on Instagram and I can put it up, I can put the same video up on YouTube and it will create a feb of discussion. It'll create people, I was like, yeah,

top to me more about this, or I disagree with you, let me tell you why I disagree with you. We have discussions around that. You post it on TikTok, no one has their discussions. Instead it's just about, I'm gonna tag my favorite influence so because I want them to tear you down. I want that person to give their opinion. I don't want to give my opinion myself.

I just want to just sit back in my voyeuristic, little watch drama. Yeah, and just watch a reality talk show, or a reality show, Kardashians with Eugene and Martin Palm Badam instead. And it creates a very, very different platform, I guess, a very different arena where discussion and nuanced things and information

can no longer thrive. And it's more just about egos and arguing and controversy. And I don't think it's necessarily social media to blame because, hey, YouTube, Instagram, it creates a lot of really good traction for me personally in terms of good discussions, but it's TikTok specifically where I've always got to just like, take a deep breath, Eugene.

Use TikTok for what it is in terms of gaining engagement, gaining not discussions, and not even back and forth with anybody, it's just like putting stuff out so people know who you are. And just walk away from it, because I get too pissed off. You know, that's why when we first got together, we wanted to do a podcast, because,

and at the time, podcasts, I mean, straight up because, and at the time podcast, I mean, straight up, this is almost eight years ago, I think seven, eight years ago, you asked people, hey, do you listen to podcasts? I swear to God, 50% of them would ask you what a podcast is, okay? So it wasn't the most popular, but we chose podcast over Instagram and other media because we know that fitness and health and nutrition and wellness and fat loss and all that stuff is a conversation. Like I've never trained a client and gotten through them accurately with 50 words or like a post.

It was always like a conversation that we had over time and that's why we enjoyed podcasts. This is an hour or two hours. We could talk about this, discuss like we're doing right now. New wants, do you have a podcast by the way? Are you any ideas in the future? I feel like you're well suited for it because talking to your podcast,

you can really discuss all these nuances versus, social media, even Instagram is really tough and YouTube gives you more time. Yeah, I'm probably behind the Katrina's just laughing because literally every other day, and every person on me, they're like, you should do a podcast. I mean, this goes on for years.

Well, we don't see this to one people. I wanna tell you. We would rather people don't put up on podcasts. Yeah, I'm just a channel. For me personally, I shoot myself in the foot a lot because I have one of my big limits hold me back is like, I see what you guys have and I'm like, man, this is fucking cool.

If I did a podcast, I don't wanna do it over Zoom. I don't wanna do it over Scup. I wanna do it in person. I wanna have a proper facility or I'm running something which I do have, I got my own private gym, my own privacy record film, things like this. But I also know that I feel like I wouldn't be up keeping if it was just in the M.I. own.

Where I would need, you know, you get your group guys, that can bounce off each other. If it was just the Adam show, just the Justin show, you probably, you wouldn't run out of ideas, but you would find it hard to do. It wouldn't be as popular as I do there right now. And it would be hard if you'd keep showing up as well. But there are guys like Ben Greenfield,

who's got his own podcast, he does his own stuff and he pumps it out. And that's his thing. For me, personality wise, doing it on my own is not a good fit. So I'm like, okay, what would I personally want to get out of a podcast? I'd love to be able to have interactions with cool people in person. And I've got the space for it. I have the equipment to be able to do that.

But I don't have being in Australia for isolated spots like, yeah. Hey Adam, you want to come out to a podcast next weekend? I'll put the build for you Yeah, it's a good you're the biggest disagreement I'm gonna have with you because I I'll disagree and I'll tell you why because it's a lot of Parallels is by analysis. Yeah going on now. I don't I disagree You could do just fine by yourself. You very very Articulate and you could pick a subject and you don't have to do we do five podcasts a week That was our strategy was to just blow people out with information,

plus we like to talk. You do one episode a week and it would support your social media and you would really bring up a subject and talk for 45 minutes on it. I think you were made for that type of a thing. Well, there's other ways to do it too. In fact, actually, I think you mentioned Andy Galpin earlier. Yes. By the way, so crazy to me. Isn't it wild how not popular he is? I know. It's messed up. It's a best, yeah. It's because he's not click baity.

It's because he is and he's every time he, one of my favorite things is- He doesn't look like a big juice head. Well, one of my favorite things about Andy, when you talk to him is he is very careful to every time he never speaks in certainties. Even when he's speaking about studies, he'll always tell you all the nuances of it

and what we're kidding. So we're kidding right now. Yeah, so he's, but unfortunately, he's just not popular. A lot of people don't know who he is, but I think he puts out some of the best information. My point of bringing him up, he does seasons, which I think is kind of cool way to do it. If I were to do podcasting over,

if it was just me by myself, I would actually plan out 12 episodes. That way, I'm not held accountable to like every week, have to come with this thing. I'd plan out my 12 episodes, and it would be a season. That way, I know the content I'm going to produce. Now, hopefully I'd get some guests. Maybe I could convince to come in. If not, I'd hold some by myself. But then when I'm done with my season, I can pause until I'm ready for my next season and say release it like a Netflix show. I love that. Yeah, it's smart. What's his podcast?

Oh, I forgot what he is. I really liked that idea. Yeah, now there's other people that do it too. I just remember he was one of the first people I saw that he might not even still do it anymore. Yeah, it was a lot of historical stuff too, like bodybuilding and he's a little bit little historian around bodybuilding.

So he's fun to talk to. I think it's cool. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, because I know for myself, I'm a big paralysis bar now. In the podcast on there, that's my thing. It's like, does it have to be perfect? It does not, but my thing that holds me back is like, oh, okay, you know what I'll help?

Go back and I don't want my audience to do this. Don't do this, but I'll tell you, go back and listen to our early episodes. And you'll be like, oh, okay, these guys, if you guys are gonna do excited, they're not, there's no paralysis by analysis here. We know the movie is a season thing, because you can come up with 12 episodes,

topics that you have. Maybe you could even do, plan it ahead, where you line up, like I said, a couple of guests, where maybe you could do it, or if you're over here, you could do one, right. And then, and then you don't have that pressure of like you have every single week. Yeah, no, I really, I really like it. I can focus for 12 weeks. We have 12 episodes.

Yeah. You're not going to end 12 days even. I can do that. Yeah. And then I'll just full feisty the effort for two years. I mean, you're one, you're one of the guys that are out there, you know, in the R space that I think does a really good job of communicating both the science base. And then you also have the experience of training real people. That's one of the things that's interesting today is you have, I mean, this didn't exist when we were coming up. You have like online coaches. Coaches who like literally have never seen a body in person. They've just, they got their serenade.

Yeah, they may have read some books. Yeah, maybe, maybe all of them. And but they haven't actually gone out and trained a lot of people and they're out there providing Information and arguing and debating and they're good at social media That's the challenges like they're good at gaining attention Yeah, and so they're popular but as far as the advice An experience they have they just lacked that yeah, I mean you learn so much you know this because you train a lot of people You learn so much because you can look at the evidence and say,

high protein diet is superior, but I've worked with, this is not a majority of people, but a minority of people or it just messes with their digestion. So it's not a good option for them. So that experience goes a long way. But I definitely think you were made for discussion. Thank you. Because the other platform, I mean, YouTube, you can do this.

YouTube gives you the opportunity. But the other platforms are like, quick bit, and we know we do this too, because they'll take something that we said, make it a short clip and it's controversial, but and people will comment and I'm like, okay, you gotta listen to the episode because this doesn't explain the whole thing,

this is just me making a statement, that was designed to get your attention, but this is much more of a discussion. Absolutely. I mean, that's what it's designed for. I mean, it's one thing as much as I hate TikTok, I know what it's benefits are. So I just got to make sure I don't look at the comments.

I'm gonna make sure I just put the content I want out and get out. Same as Instagram is like, I know what this is good for. Not the story is good for the story shares. I know what this platform is made for, for maybe interaction with some people, but no, that's not made for long form. That's where I have the YouTubers or, but then definitely I know what this platform is made for, for maybe interaction with some people, but no, that's not made for long form.

That's where I have the YouTubers, but then definitely I know that a podcast would be the final tier that helped to just bring it all together. What's your main source of business, is it coaching and training people? Or do you know? It's my app. So Gambo, Roo, Methods,

it's my app where it is like a program, coaching, nutrition, education, platform, everything that I do is all on there. People can like, some tell all, maps programs that you have, instead of having individual purchase bundle programs, or it's all in the one membership, and some people, there's like a few tens of thousands of people on there using these and interacting and getting critiques, everything.

And that's, that's the main thing. I used to do a lot of tour, when I was here last time, a few years ago, pretty, pretty pandemic. It was, I was on the road for like eight, nine months, just running events. And then that nearly killed me. That burned me. I was kind of happy to pandemic, happy like, I've got an excuse not going to again. I could just focus a lot more on the upside of things, which honestly made a lot of what I do a lot more accessible

because for people to come to an event or people do online coaching with me it's so expensive just because of what they have to invest to make it worth worth me to be able to meet up with the demand. I've got to jack my prices. I was like last night feasible because it's not like for me to actually train someone to coach somebody one-on-one same as you guys. What would your alley right have to be? Yeah, you got to measure the cost benefit. Yeah, the cost of doing something. Miles and... Like for you guys it probably would easily be a few thousand dollars

for a single session to make it actually worth all, but versus what you would be spending the hour doing. And then realistically, is it actually worth that person to spend a few thousand dollars for a one session? Absolutely not. They're better off saying a PT in the anytime fitness around the corner, and they're going to get a similar benefit, absolutely not. They're better off saying a pay T in the any time fitness around the corner, and they're gonna get a similar benefit for more value.

And I respect, you know what, that's why the Apple, the e-books that you guys have, they're so beneficial because it makes it more accessible to be able to get what they need at a reasonable price. I keep hearing about how the fitness and health scene, I guess, for lack of a better term in Australia, is just massive. I keep people keep telling us, you gotta go to,

is it like a big, is that accurate? Yeah, like when it comes to, I look at it from, when I was, huge fitness culture, right? Yeah, when I was touring and doing my events, and it's a bit boss because I am Australian as well, but I do see as it playing out people like Charles Policeman, he was around, he was touring a lot,

and I was helping to organize a lot of tours for other people as well. The biggest places that would sell out in terms of for fitness-based education and training, it was Australia, the UK. They were the top two. And then next would maybe be through Asia, maybe Singapore, maybe Canada,

maybe Canada, neck and neck. And then you have some random places like Norway or something, we wouldn't even think of, but these other countries in Europe. The States would actually be surprisingly low. even though you have so many people within the States who care about fitness, especially here in California, such a very fitness forward space. But I find that for whatever reason, people don't want to spend money in the States on education,

whether it's an ego thing, whether it's a cultural thing, I'm not too sure what it is. I think what they know what they're doing. Honestly, I think that I think that, personally, personally, outside of the effectively, I think, yeah, I think they have that belief though. I think it's because I think culturally, in whatever reason in the UK, through Asia and in Australia, people are a lot more willing to be like,

hey, I don't know. I don't know, I need to learn more from you, so you don't need to learn more to get better, or some of the states are like, I know I know I'm talking about. I'm the fucking king. I'm the best. You can't tell me shit. Or they'll respect that they don't know enough, but they don't want to spend. They don't want to spend much money. Interesting. They'll spend like 50 bucks and I'll be expensive. You know, and we're just the competition. It might be too small. It could be that as well. But I find like if I run an event in Australia,

it'll still happen about 10 minutes. If I run an event in the UK, probably maybe an hour. You asked it'll be two months to maybe sell. Wow, we would have been out there. We would have been out there by now, but you guys have such big spiders. I don't know if I can see it. There's not that bad.

I mean, look, I've seen videos, okay? They've got toilets, they've got to clear the cell. It doesn't happen like I barely see anything like that. And the reality is, the ones that are gonna kill you, you're not gonna see them. You don't need to worry about that. If you're someone who doesn't get a dead, you're gonna be dead, who cares?

You know, you live the good life. The time is now. You're just gonna get me going to real quick. I read that. Who are some of your favorite content creators in Australia? Who are your peers that you like? So my absolute favorite is my training partner, Cheryl.

Cheryl Grant, which is, again, it's gonna sound incredibly biased, but she does put out some incredible content that nuance more for women. She's incredible role model for women, she's putting out really good nuance discussions, and she's again, a person who doesn't want to be in Necrocham, if she wants to learn,

she wants to always bounce ideas off other people and just expand her mind as much as possible. Other creators, like this guy Luke Tullik, he made not have heard of him. He was based in Sydney and now he's actually, he's over in, I think, Sweden now, because he went pre-pandemic on a holiday and then kind of got stuck there with his wife and then they had a kid and then now they're just a summer in Europe. But he, I call him Australian, so he has an Australian accent. But he's a really good evidence-based, science-based content creator.

And again, what I love is he's very much like an Andy Galpin. It's never to thin-lips. You should do this. It's always bad. He's a mechanism. He's still we know so far. And here's how open it is to interpretation. I feel like us in Australia, we can adopt James Smith

as a person. He's like a, we can say, he's a good guy. As much as he triggers a lot of people and he loves a lot of people the wrong way, if you look at where he's coming from and you look at his character, what can we learn from that? Whether or not you like the way he's style, I'm sure people don't like my style. I know that. He's comfortable with it. He's like, what can you learn from the way that he carries himself? Whether you're

not, you agree with him, whether or not you agree with his style and his mannerisms. The fact is, what can you learn from the way that he conducts himself and how he is clearly a very happy individual and he's very confident in himself. And he wasn't always like that. Yeah. And I think that's something that we can aspire to say, you know, I don't want to be you. I don't want to be like wanna be lucky, but I respect where you've come from and what you're doing and how you're living it off on your terms. Yeah, I think the challenge is, I like that. Because I don't mind disagreeing with people.

I don't mind not liking your style. What I mind is not, people not being able to like, debate and discuss like and being afraid or too sensitive or whatever are triggered by it. That annoys the shit out of me. And I think you see more of that in fitness just because we tend to be more insecure because most people get into fitness because they shit out of me. I think you see more of that in fitness just because we tend to be more insecure because most people get into fitness

because they had body image issues. I think that might carry over. Something you mentioned that I think is a really bright spot. You mentioned your training partner and how she's influential. The communication to women about strength training has radically changed since when I first started. It's amazing.

I haven't worked out in a commercial gym in a long time. I just restarted maybe six months ago. I'm seeing women in the gym, lift, deadlift, squat, bench, overhead press, using challenging themselves, strength-based exercises. I'd never seen before. This is a totally different, it was so different back in the day that this is really, if I could point to one really positive change in the fitness space, I'd say that has to be one of the biggest ones.

Yeah, it's incredible. And it's, it's, it's, it's honestly intimidating. Like, people ask me to say, Hey, is you want to, you do powerlifting? I'm like, I don't want to do powerlifting because I will be outlifted by women who are like four white classes below me because of just how many people are doing it. I'm stuck on Squat 4 or 5. Yeah, I'm done. I'm good. I'm happy that I'm sweating.

Yeah, I don't want to expose myself to any more ridicule than I already am. Just leave me out of this kind of thing. I think it's incredible though. Like, seeing how women are a lot more confident and they're making a much bigger presence within the fitness industry. And I think it's so cool.

And I think it's actually an important thing is, if I look at my analytics on my following, on a YouTuber, Instagram or whatever, I have like 80% nail. But you look at my customers. It's like 60% female. And women are the ones who are driving through the industry forwards.

They're the ones who care they want to learn, they've got no ego, they want to push the industry forwards. And that's why I think we're seeing such a big surgeons in the fitness industry. It's not because of men, even though men are typically seen as like the authorities or whatever, look at the biggest influence the credit,

it's mainly males, unfortunately, but they're not really the ones pushing the industry forward. You think they are because they're the faces of it, but really it's the women because they're the ones creating the demand, they're the ones creating the market, they're the ones. They're like that for most markets, a lot of people don't know that.

They're the consumers of most markets. That's same for don't know that. Yeah, the consumers are most markets. Yeah. Same for us. Yeah, very true. Well, bro, it's been a good conversation. Yeah, yeah. I really appreciate you coming on the show. I like that we can talk about certain things

and appreciate what you're doing. And I think you should start a podcast, really. Thank you. I love that idea, the whole 12 week season, although maybe maybe a four week, one episode season will still see what happens, but I love that I always, I thank you for bringing that up. And thank you for the time.

I really appreciate it. I came back, and I came here whenever I was a few years ago. I really wanted to come on, but we couldn't make it work, but I'm so happy we can finally make this happen. Yeah, no, for sure, you make it. Good job, man. Love it, great having you on, man. Thank you, guys.

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