Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1894: Ways to Improve the Mind-Muscle Connection, How to Know if You Are Overtraining, What to Do When Cutting Calories Doesn’t Result in Weight Loss & More (Listener Live Coaching)

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump, right in today's episode. We answered Life Colors questions, so they actually called in. We got to help them out on air. But this was after a 58-minute introductory conversation where we talked about fitness, studies, current events

Starting point is 00:00:30 or lives, and much more. By the way, you could check the show notes for timestamps. We can fast forward to your favorite part. Also, if you want to be on an episode like this one, email your question to live at mindpumpmedia.com. And then if we pick it, we'll sketch you for a live question on the podcast. Now, this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Zbiotics. This is a genetically modified probiotic drink designed to break down some of the harmful byproducts of alcohol consumption.

Starting point is 00:00:55 So when you drink alcohol, acetaldehyde can build up in the gut, get into your bloodstream and wreak havoc. Zbiotics goes in there and breaks it apart, breaks it down for you, so you don't get some of this nasty buildup. It's a remarkable product. It's great for health-minded people who enjoy the occasional alcoholic beverage. Go check this company out. I swear it really does work. Go to zbiotics.com, a ZB-I-O-T-I-C-S.com-flour-s-MinePump. Use the code, MinePump22 two for 10% off your first order.

Starting point is 00:01:25 Now this podcast is also brought to you by butcher box. This is a company that delivers grass fed meats, heritage pork, wild cop fish to your door. So it comes to your door. You get a box. The price is amazing. It's high quality food, high quality meat. And right now for mine pump listeners, you can get free chicken for a year. So two pounds of free range organic chicken breasts

Starting point is 00:01:49 for free included in your butcher box, but you gotta do this, you gotta go to butcherbox.com forward slash mind pump. One more thing, we got a sale going on this month on some workout programs. We have a skinny guy bundle. This is a multiple workout programs put together. We have a MAPS etabolic MAPS aesthetic, the no BS six pack formula, the intuitive nutrition

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Starting point is 00:02:42 All right, here comes a show. Stop forcing your body to change. It doesn't work that way. If it feels like you're forcing your body, either your methods or your mindset are wrong, you gotta fix them. Feel like this is a direct shot at me. No, no, no, no.

Starting point is 00:02:58 Hold on. Hold on, man. No, this is dead. You know what, if it going through this lately, I can't. So much in our space, because again, information comes from like these fitness fanatics and it's like, you have to force your body to grow.

Starting point is 00:03:11 You have to force your body to get lean. You have to, you know what happens when you force your body? Your body wins. Eventually, you'll lose that battle because time is on the side of your body. Eventually either your body breaks down or your mind breaks down or your will power breaks down or something happens and you stop. It just doesn't work.

Starting point is 00:03:31 When you do it right, that doesn't mean it's not hard. Challenging is fine, there's nothing wrong with challenging. But if it feels like you're forcing something, then you gotta reevaluate, you know, what's going on. I mean, that's, it's really easy to say that. I think it's really tough to actually gauge that. Totally. I mean, I'm 20 years into this plus.

Starting point is 00:03:50 Let's see, eternal struggle. And I still, I mean, I shared with you off air, you know, kind of the routine that I've been doing for the last almost month now. And I'm just kind of blown away by how little volume I'm training right now and the way my body is feeling and responding. Now granted, I do know that I have years of or decades at this point of training consistently

Starting point is 00:04:14 and building a lot of muscle mass. I know that's working to my advantage. I also know that my hormones are optimized, so I have that working in my advantage. But even so, the amount of lean mass that I'm holding onto while also kind of slowly leaning out and getting stronger is in how little I'm training is just wild to me. You know what? Here's why, so I totally get what you're said, but here's why that's not even relevant because you still had to struggle with forcing your body. Same muscle memory, same hormones optimized, and I'm not picking on you

Starting point is 00:04:52 because I do the same damn thing, but you went through, I mean, how many times have you gone through where you're literally like, I'm going to make this happen, I'm going to force it, I got to push it. If when you do everything right with nutrition and with exercise, it doesn't feel effortless in the sense that you're not challenging yourself. It feels effortless in the sense that it feels like you're working with your body. And we've all been through those stages.

Starting point is 00:05:16 Like if you've been working out for a long time, you can, all of us can think of a time or a period where we're like, man, I was feeling so good. The workouts just seemed to work so well for me. I was eating right and it just felt so good versus those periods of time where it was like, where you're like, you're running uphill on a treadmill

Starting point is 00:05:35 and you're just pushing and you're joints hurt and you're like, oh, I'm gonna keep grinding through this and oh, this diet, it's like, I hate myself through this whole process. It's no wonder people stop. And it's either, again, it's either, I hate myself through this whole process. It's no wonder people stop. And it's either, again, it's either the method or the mindset or both. One or two are both of those things are off. Yeah, I think that, I think this is like stages that people go through in terms of understanding

Starting point is 00:05:58 their body and like how to be able to build habits that are beneficial. Because initially, you do have to have some sort of like mental discipline to get to a space where you're like, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna take on this challenge. And unfortunately, I people like stick with that that discipline of, I need to do this in spite of me, my body struggling completely through this. And it's like this throttle that they go all the way down with instead of, you know, the evolved version of that

Starting point is 00:06:29 is realizing too that your body sending all these signals that you need to be receptive to in order to then thrive in a whole nother category. You know what the funny thing about that is, Justin, as you're saying this is totally coming to me, is it's all mental discipline. You also have to be disciplined to not beat yourself up. You also have to be disciplined to realize

Starting point is 00:06:53 that you're caring for yourself. I'm glad you're saying that because I was gonna tell you that actually the thing that's interesting to me is even how little I'm challenging myself in my workouts. Cause it's easy for me to get into a workout, get into a rhythm, look for that sweat, look for that burn, like, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:11 I can't wait to struggle a little. I like that, we're fitness people, right? So that's something that we all probably enjoy doing. But even that, I'm like, I'm really trying to pull back on even that feeling of like, and because I'm sticking to only like two simple movements in a workout right now, it's easy for me to remember because I just deadlifted, you know, four days before

Starting point is 00:07:33 or whatever like that, what I did. And so the way I look at it as long as I'm moving the same weight or maybe a tiny bit more weight or getting one or two more reps out or moving the weight better, that's enough challenge for me. Yes. Like that, like, and that's it. Like I don't need to like get after it even more

Starting point is 00:07:50 or really increase the weight or add extra sets or tons more reps. Like it's just like all I wanna do right now is like, okay, I deadlifted on, let's say Tuesday, here it is now Friday, I'm doing it again. I know what I know what I moved weight wise, I know how many sets, because it's easy to remember, I only did two exercises, and so how does the movement feel?

Starting point is 00:08:12 Is it smoother, am I better at it? And as long as I move it as much weight or even a tiny bit more, and not allowing myself to go, oh, that was so easy, let's stack another quarter on, like which is what I typically do. Yeah, so okay, so for all the, like the mental discipline people out there, right? The hardcore people out there.

Starting point is 00:08:31 Like, I'll ask, I'll pose this question, okay. If you think of all, I don't know, how many people live in America now? 300 million, I think? So like that, 350 million, so like that. If I guarantee you a much larger percentage of all 300 some odd million people in America have had

Starting point is 00:08:48 extremely grueling workouts and have gone on a diet. I could tell you with full certainty that a much smaller percentage develop a relationship with exercise and nutrition to where they eat right and exercise for the rest of their life. For the long haul. So where's the mental discipline? Is it really in the, I can go beat the crap out of myself

Starting point is 00:09:07 for a month or two and restrict my calories and lose 20 pounds and then gain it back? Or is the discipline really finding a way to do this forever? Right, where's the real challenge? Obviously the challenge is in being able to do this forever. And so that's the entire point of this thing. And again, like, look, I can't tell you how many times I've had clients

Starting point is 00:09:27 who I'll take under my wing, people who've worked out on and off forever, who've been on diets, on and off forever. And then when I start training them, the first couple of months, I'll get this. This feels like kinda easy. Like, are you sure this is gonna work? Like, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:09:42 And then of course, six months later, it feels like my body fat just coming off my body. How is this working? It's like, okay, here's a deal. We're working with your body because, and that's what you have to do. Your body burns body fat and builds muscle because it wants to.

Starting point is 00:09:56 You can't force it. If it doesn't want to, I promise you'll lose. I guarantee you, there is no way to win that battle. At some point, either your mind is gonna break or your body's gonna break or both. So this isn't like, hey, this is a better way to do, is the only way to win that battle. At some point, either your mind is gonna break or your body's gonna break or both. So this isn't like, hey, this is a better way to do, it's the only way to do it. It's funny, because it's mentally easier actually

Starting point is 00:10:13 to go full blast, right? And it's also mentally easier to dismiss it completely. Yes. So it's always that polar sort of pull, like when people think about fitness and how to get back into it and approach it. And really, it's that right dose. It's that one that you're pushing just enough, but you're also reserved just enough so you can come back and show up with good energy and keep going.

Starting point is 00:10:41 Yes. I mean, if you're following a program and you're trying to change your nutrition and you're seeing no improvements in your quality of life, I use the word quality of life because I don't want to narrow it down to just fat loss and muscle gain or strength gain because oftentimes people ignore or they don't realize all the other improvements

Starting point is 00:11:03 and so they become too narrow focus. Like if it's just fat loss, you might miss the fact that you're sleeping better, you're moving better, you feel better, like that kind of stuff, right? So if you're doing these things and it's a new practice for you and you're getting zero improvements in the quality of your life,

Starting point is 00:11:18 that doesn't mean do more of what you're doing or go harder at what you're doing. That means look at it and say, okay, it's not working and it feels like I'm forcing myself. Obviously I'm doing something that's not right. I'm not working with my body and you have to reevaluate. Here's the other side of it. Even if the methods are right, your mindset might be wrong.

Starting point is 00:11:36 So what's the difference between a good mindset and a bad mindset? Well, it's the difference between me saying, I don't want, I don't want to eat that cookie and I can't eat that cookie, right? I don't want to eat that cookie, and I can't eat that cookie, right? I don't want to eat that cookies is a good mindset. It means I've understood that it's not gonna work for me. I understand it's still taste good,

Starting point is 00:11:55 but I actually don't want it, because what's more important to me is my health at the moment, I can't eat that cookie is a wrong mindset. That says, boy do I want it, but the oppressive side of me that's telling me I'm a fat slob is saying you can't have it. Well, how long is that gonna last? And then eventually what are you gonna do?

Starting point is 00:12:10 You're gonna break free of those chains. You're gonna rebel and then you eat a whole box of cookies instead of just one. You know what it is though? I think that, and I think this is getting more challenging with time, right? That we want things to happen so fast. And the process of building muscle and burning body fat,

Starting point is 00:12:28 or losing body fat, it hasn't changed. It's, yeah, not only hasn't changed, but it takes a while. I mean, I just had this conversation with my client. So I have kept this whole time that we've podcasted. I've always had one client. And I like to have one client for this exact reason, because it just

Starting point is 00:12:45 reminds me of somebody who's been with me for seven, eight years plus and has listened to all most all mind-pub episodes, heard me coach a bajillion times, still has this struggle, right? Like she's getting ready for a trip that she has coming up. And, you know, I had set her on this plan, like eating wise, training wise, and she reports back to me, and she's frustrated because a week and a half went by and the scale hasn't moved. And I'm like, who cares?

Starting point is 00:13:12 Your training volume is higher than it's ever been right now. There's a very good chance that you're old mental gauge of where you, because she has this number in her head. Like, she's like Doug's age, and she has got attached to this number in her head. Like, yeah. She's like Doug's age and she has got attached to this number, her whole life when she's at that weight, she feels the best. But how we started training together years ago was I told her she was too much into cardio

Starting point is 00:13:38 and what her body really needed was more strength training. She probably has way more muscles. And that's what I'm always trying to explain to her. I was like, so you've got to get away from that, but it's so hard to break from that because she knows it. And then she focuses on these few areas on her body where she still hangs on and holds on to Bifan. We're talking about someone who's in pretty good shape,

Starting point is 00:13:55 but she's in good shape, right? Especially for, she's in great shape. She's in phenomenal shape. You know who you're talking about? Yeah, so she's in great, in fact, she's in one of our, I think one of our programs or books we've used her for modeling because she's in such good shape. But yet she still has this idea of this, this weight.

Starting point is 00:14:09 And I'm like, it doesn't work that way. So you cannot, you cannot look at the scale and then expect that just because you're dieting and you're training every day, whether it be you're going for these long hikes and walks or you're lifting, that just the scale's gonna always go down. Like you have more lean body mass on you. It's, I think we just attached too much to the wrong things.

Starting point is 00:14:28 And I think really if we could get people to look at all aspects of their life and you alluded to it, a little bit ago saying that, hey, is anything improving? Is your sleep getting better? Is your sex drive better? Is your mood better? Is your performance at work better? Is the, you know, is the image you're chasing getting better, is your sex drive better, is your mood better, is your performance at work better, is the image you're chasing getting better?

Starting point is 00:14:48 There's so many things that sometimes maybe this one thing that you're measuring doesn't move fast enough for you, but it's improving others. I think that's the secret sauce is learning to look at the other things and not get so attached to one or two different metrics that we all like to attach our success in working out too. Yeah, look, one of the things I love most about fitness, health and that pursuit is it is incredible vehicle

Starting point is 00:15:20 for personal growth. And it's very unassuming because what I say mean by unassuming, and I said this before, is like if you approach somebody and you say, hey, you know, would you like to do a personal growth course where you can just become a better person? A lot of people beginning to be turned off, like, I don't want to do that.

Starting point is 00:15:35 But if you say, hey, you want to get, you know, nicer looking butt and, you know, ripped abs, yeah, right? So they don't even realize that they're embarking on a personal growth journey. But let's think about this for a second. Let's eliminate everything, but just the physical. You want to lose 30 pounds.

Starting point is 00:15:47 Guess what you're trying to do? Become something completely different from what you are because it's not just the physical body, but it's your lifestyle that that represents. So name one, anything in your life where you can completely change yourself and do it in 30 days. It doesn't happen.

Starting point is 00:16:04 Like I can't become a black belt in a martial art in 30 days. I can't learn to play do it in 30 days. It doesn't happen. I can't become a black belt in a martial art in 30 days. I can't learn to play the piano in 30 days. You can go backwards real fast in 30 days. But no, it's a bit of a process. So we can't look at it that way. I know we have this kind of immediate gratification type society where you can take a pill or get a surgery. What's so wild about that though, is that's actually truly how you want it though.

Starting point is 00:16:30 You want it to be difficult. You want it to take effort. Even though you think you don't, it would lose its value and power if it was that easy that you snapped your fingers and your body would change. It's just like we brought this up before. If and when that pill does eventually come, that probably will come in our lifetime, that makes you just body fat melt off you

Starting point is 00:16:50 or muscle build on you or find a way to hack it somehow, you'll lose a lot of the great benefits of the process of getting that. And I, and I, and I, and I'm so glad you said that because growth in all senses only comes from being uncomfortable. And never, if everything's comfortable, you say the same. Now, and I said that because I just said don't force your body. And people confuse that with what I'm saying right now.

Starting point is 00:17:12 No, no, no, no, this pursuit is uncomfortable. The pursuit is gonna be challenging. So I'm not, don't confuse the two. It's not like, oh, South said don't force your body. So this should feel exactly the way I do when I don't exercise and I don't watch my diet. No, no, no, that's not what I mean. What I mean is there's a difference between look, okay, here's a deal. You can feel pain because you tore your bicep or you can feel pain because you worked your bicep

Starting point is 00:17:34 out. Two different kinds of pain, they're both pain, both uncomfortable. You gotta learn the difference. There's a difference between forcing your body and working with your body. They're both uncomfortable. One is sustainable, one leads to permanent personal growth or this lifelong pursuit of growth. The other one leads to on and off. The other one makes you stop eventually. So that's the point that I'm trying to make. Now the problem and the reason why the message is so messed up in our space is it's dominated by the ripped, sexy, fit-looking people in our space because it's a media space, just like almost any other space. And most of these people are fanatical and most of them have a dysfunctional relationship

Starting point is 00:18:17 with exercise and nutrition. So the message you're going to get from them is what they do for themselves. No, you just got to have, look, you get to eat the same thing every day, you gotta grind it out, you gotta, you know, it'll pulse to the wall, you get, well yeah, because you're crazy, you're unhealthy in a different way, you look good, but really if we really analyze your life and everything about you,

Starting point is 00:18:36 we want to hang out with you. And yeah, I believe me, like we know this, we live in the space, okay? Let me tell you, like some of the, and we've said this before, some of the most unhealthy people mentally, psychologically and so on are the people, and even physically, some of the most unhealthy people mentally, psychologically, and so on are the, and even physically, even though they look

Starting point is 00:18:47 a particular way, are in our space. But that's the message, you get that message from those people all the time. So that's why it sounds that way. It also sells stuff very easily. I can right now, I can push pain points on this show right now and sell somebody by making them feel shitty about themselves, making them feel inadequate,

Starting point is 00:19:05 and then hyping the shit out of them, making them feel a spark of motivation, which is going to fade in, you know, 10 to 12 weeks, but in that period of time, sell you some stuff. I can sell you some stuff. So that's why that message comes from, but look, here's the truth. This is the truth. You know, we train people for years and years and years, and you figure this out after you lose clients every three months. You get someone in shape and then they're out gone after three months and you get someone else in shape and eventually if you really care about people,

Starting point is 00:19:31 what am I doing? It's not working. You got to figure this out and eventually after, I don't know, 10 years of training people, you're like, oh, you can't force this. This is a process of learning how to work through the process and it improves the quality of your life and it's your mindset or your methods.

Starting point is 00:19:46 You gotta examine those two things. And if you're trying to force it and push all the time, I promise you'll lose. Nobody in the history of the world has ever won that battle of forcing their body. It just doesn't work. Well, I think the first mistake that anybody makes, and this goes down to anybody who's listening right now,

Starting point is 00:20:00 is thinking that you have it all figured out. As long as we've been doing this, and I think that's a point of this conversation, and why we share the things we do on the podcast is not to stand up here and to point and to tell people, oh, we have it all figured out, fuck, I don't have it all figured out, I'm still figuring it out. I figured it out every day. I had to figure it out.

Starting point is 00:20:18 I think that's part of the key is where you mess up, and this is where you think you've got it all figured out, and that you should always be pursuing growth and learning. And I mean, again, it's a, I think a lifelong pursuit and looking at the end goal or the end result all the time as like the place that you're trying to get is a mistake. It's learning and progress. I struggle with this all the time. I mean, I feel a little joint pain.

Starting point is 00:20:46 So then I'll be like, I'm gonna take this supplement or I'm gonna add this new mobility movement and I'm gonna add this thing to it or, oh, I don't have enough energy. I'm gonna add this new stimulant or this new thing. Eventually, I gotta take a step back and be like, why am I body feel like this? Exercise all the time, I hate rad,

Starting point is 00:21:03 it shouldn't be feeling this way. I take a step back and be like, why am I body feel like this exercise all the time? I hate right, I shouldn't be feeling this way. I take a step back and like clockwork, what happens? My body responds in a wonderful way. Oh yeah, that's right. Okay, take your own advice out. So it ain't easy, definitely not easy. I always go check your motivation. That's just something that I'm always like evaluating

Starting point is 00:21:19 to see where it's going. What's fueling it? Is this more self-fledulating kind of motivation where I'm like, ah, I'm not good enough, or whatever. All that garbage that you're kind of bringing into it versus like, I'm enjoying this, and this is something that I'm just going to continue to do because it makes me feel good.

Starting point is 00:21:38 And I'm a better person to the result of it. Speaking of feeling good and garbage in your body, did you guys, so you sent us, I think he was you that sent us a clip of Hooberman talking about all metabolism. Yeah, yeah. Well, how great was that, right? Because of who we work with with that Z-Bot.

Starting point is 00:21:55 I actually DMed him. We were talking him and I were talking back and forth. I messaged him and said, Hey, have you ever heard of Z-Biotics? And he's like, no, what's that? And so I actually sent him a clip of us interviewing Zach and then also sent like a little blurb on like, I wish it was you having that conversation

Starting point is 00:22:13 because you can explain the science so much better than I can and a huge women is like a super nerd like you. And so, I'm gonna keep on me. It's super nerd. Like you're talking to the wrong, the wrong mind-pumpos right now, because he's asking like, Oh, you want me to tell him? He's practicing to ask to tell behind the mirror. 20 times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw him going to try

Starting point is 00:22:34 and explain to you. Let me send you links. Yeah, but I heard him talking about it right away. I was like, Oh, shit, zyonix. I'm like, literally, he's breaking down the science. Was this a video on Instagram? Yeah, it's on one of his reals. I was like, oh shit, Z-biotics. I'm like, literally he's breaking down the science. Was this a video on Instagram? Yeah, it's on one of those reals. He was talking about why some people, so some people have this reaction to alcohol where they get really flushed and they don't feel good and they just can't drink alcohol.

Starting point is 00:22:55 And basically, there's, it has to do with their genetics, but they're unable to break down the acetaldehyde byproduct of alcohol. Which by the way, sorry to interrupt you, but what was like a huge switch for me when I saw that clip and why I said it to you guys is it explains to me why some people think

Starting point is 00:23:13 Z-biotics is life changing and other people are like, oh, kind of, not really. Like if you're somebody, if your body processes that, at least this was my take away. Break it down a little more effectively. Yeah, if it breaks it down more effectively. Because it's like a scale, right? Some people are way over here, one drink of alcohol,

Starting point is 00:23:27 and they just feel so terrible. I have a friend like that where he drinks, he stays away from it because he thinks he's allergic is what he says. And then there's people way over here where they- Like Katrina. Yeah, where you just like, what do you got like six livers? Like how does this work?

Starting point is 00:23:41 Yeah, no, it blows my mind how she can drink compared to me and say. Yeah, so- And I'm closer to that spectrum. And that's why like when I talk about Zee by Eye, it blows my mind how she can drink compared to me. Yeah, so and I'm closer to that spectrum. And that's why like when I talk about Z by eye, so my bullshit, it has been that, I mean, it's been with me for 12 years. She'll tell you I've drank more in the lot,

Starting point is 00:23:53 this sounds like a great commercial, but terrible for me. I've drank more than three years. I just see the meme, I'm gonna sell the shit I see my eyes right now, but it's terrible for a health pocket. I've drank more than the last three years I have the previous, yeah, no, really though. Damn right. And that's still not a lot, right?

Starting point is 00:24:10 But I mean, I stayed away from alcohol completely because I'm closer to that spectrum of somebody. I don't think I'm allergic to it, but I definitely know like, it's like every time I would grab a drink, I always know that I'm like rolling the dice like, am I gonna feel like shit tomorrow? Dude, I had a bunch of- Just from a drink or two. Dude, so I have a buddy,. I always know that I'm like rolling the dice. Am I gonna feel like shit tomorrow? Dude, I had a bunch of... Just from a drink or two.

Starting point is 00:24:27 Dude, so I have a buddy. So I went to, I'm not gonna give too many details. I don't want a close person out, but I went out with a bunch of my buddies and cousins. And, you know, we're all like now in our 40s. So we're all hanging out and, you know, we have this one buddy who doesn't drink, because this is him.

Starting point is 00:24:43 Like one drink and he just feels terrible. It feels so bad, right? So he's getting razzed by, come on, have a drink. And I finally stood up and I got so, I had, thank God, I had, I had Zibotic. So, but I stood up and it was like a nice commercial. But I said, bro, I said, you think so and so, by the way, this guy we know him. And let me just, I'll just get a sazen maniac. Okay.

Starting point is 00:25:04 So you think so and so who's done this, this, this, and this is afraid of drinking? I said, he's a grown man, he knows it. It's a dumb chat. We know what's, he knows what's not good and what's not. Anyway, so I told him about zibotics. Actually, I should text him and find out if you tried it because I said, I wonder if you,

Starting point is 00:25:21 your body may not break down as a child. I had very much, a lot of it gets released in your gut, and that's what Z-Botics does, is it? I know, I got so pumped when I saw Heuberman talking about that because I'm like, he'd won. The guy's got one of the biggest podcasts right now that he's blowing up and everybody respects his opinion. Very level-head.

Starting point is 00:25:37 I don't know how much you guys watch his stuff or not. I'm really excited for what he's doing. He's a great content. Yeah, eventually we will cross pass and get him on the show so that I know our people have been in Conversation and by that for our audience the only reason why we haven't already is because he happens to be on a list of people that we want to do in person Like sometimes we'll do some interviews over zoom or what I thought because whatever it's not to us It's not that big of a deal just being honest if we meet them or not. But then there's some people that we,

Starting point is 00:26:05 like everybody that was on Zoom with us now knows. It's all they feel like. Hey. You know, so by all means. No, I just didn't necessarily mean that we don't like them or anything like that, but we feel like, okay, the message will do fine over Zoom. Maybe it seems like somebody like whatever about me.

Starting point is 00:26:22 We want to meet him. We want him in. Yes, he's somebody who I really, are we all really want to meet? And so we're waiting for the opportunity for when our both our schedule's aligned. And so we will for certainly do something with him. Cause I really like what he's putting out.

Starting point is 00:26:35 Dude, I gotta tell you guys yesterday. So yesterday, we hung out my parents a little bit. So for my parents just had their 45th wedding anniversary. Wow, 45 years, right? Yeah, anyway. Anyway, so they went and they went to go celebrate. They stopped by my house first to see the baby. And I told my dad, take my car.

Starting point is 00:26:55 So I have a sports car and my dad loves cars. He was like, no, I don't want to do it. Oh, come on. I said, Dad, take the car. Just go enjoy stuff. You guys drive whatever. So they did. And they had a good time.

Starting point is 00:27:04 Then they came back. we all hung out together. And my parent, my dad is just, he was talking about, oh, I took the curve this fast, and I went that fast, and my mom was like, you dad drives a little too, and we're starting this conversation. And then he's just talking about how proud he is that his kids can get nice things into this stuff,

Starting point is 00:27:24 started telling stories of when he was growing up. And I've heard some of these stories before, but for the first time, I'm listening to my dad and I'm feeling like this tremendous empathy and like, holy shit, that's crazy. Because I've heard these before, you know when you're a kid and you hear stories, it doesn't process, you know, like that was crazy.

Starting point is 00:27:44 You got a ton of prides from it before. Before it was all prides. But now I'm like, oh man, like that's up. Oh bro, because he's telling Jessica, because Jessica hasn't heard some of these. And he's like, he goes, you know, he goes, he goes, I only, I stopped going to school when I was nine years old, which is like, what?

Starting point is 00:28:02 It was, yeah, we couldn't afford, I had to go to work. So he's talking about how I used to work when he was nine years old, and is like, what? It was, yeah, we couldn't afford. I had to go to work. So he's talking about how I used to work when he was nine years old, and how he'd give his mom the money, and he goes, you know, and then I would ask my mom, I said, mom, my feet don't fit, my shoes anymore, my toes are bleeding, and she would look at me and go, we have to wait one more month.

Starting point is 00:28:18 He goes, she would cut the front of my shoes so that my toes would come out. That's so crazy. So he's more sandals. It's so basically crazy, dude. So he's more sandals. It's so basically, that's so crazy dude. So he could afford it. And so he's telling all these different, they're talking about when they first came to this country

Starting point is 00:28:33 and he says, you know, he goes, we had no money and he goes, I worked really hard. He goes, I didn't speak any English. So you know, I would go to work and the guy would say, give me a hammer. He goes, I'd bring the whole toolbox because I don't know what a hammer was. I had to learn what the language was.

Starting point is 00:28:48 And he goes, you know, when you were born, when you were like two or three, he goes, you used to like McDonald's. You look, he said, somebody gave you McDonald's franchise, you loved it. He goes, so we saved our money. So I could take you to McDonald's twice a month. And then he goes, your mom and I would eat at home,

Starting point is 00:29:03 and we'd take you there to get McDonald's. He goes, and then I started working, and I had a little more money. He goes, your mom and I would eat at home and we'd take you there to get McDonald's. He goes, and then I started working and I had a little more money. He goes, I could finally go McDonald's. He goes, so I was in line. He's telling the story.

Starting point is 00:29:11 And I'm listening to him, and I'm like, this is crazy. He goes, I was in line. And I was so excited because I could get a big Mac and French fries. And he goes,

Starting point is 00:29:19 all these people behind me, I get up to the front and he goes, and I'm telling the guy, big Mac and French fry. And he goes, and the guy goes, what? Oh, he's not saying Big Mac of Fresh Fry. He's probably speaking.

Starting point is 00:29:26 Yeah, I said it way better, right? He goes, and he goes, I kept saying it, and the guy looked at me, goes, I don't understand. I understand. And he goes, all the people waiting behind me, he goes, I'm so embarrassed. He goes, I don't know, he goes, he goes, finally, I went around the desk

Starting point is 00:29:37 and I pointed to it and he gave it to me. He goes, I'm eating by myself, and he goes, I felt so embarrassed. And I'm looking at him, I'm like, oh, this fucking, he was like 20. He's like a 20 year old kid. I fell so in bear. And I'm looking at him like, oh, this fucking, he was like 20. He's like a 20 year old kid. I'm doing this shit. Imagine the cajonus to leave to another country

Starting point is 00:29:52 where you do not speak the language as a teenager and not have anything lined up and then and not be able to speak the language and not have a degree, much less a even elementary or elementary school level. You didn't go to school? No, not that a degree, much less a even elementary or elementary school. You didn't go to college? No, nothing. That's crazy to me.

Starting point is 00:30:08 It's wild. I mean, my mom says if they bought napkins, she would have to cut them into pieces so they'd have like little extra napkins. They had to save everything. It just, and he worked, I mean, he worked seven days a week for as long as I could remember. He always made dinner.

Starting point is 00:30:23 He always would come to dinner. But there was a point when they first got married where he said that if they had night work, he would take it too. So he would work, then he'd go to the shop and sleep for three hours and go back to work. And he would do this for like three, four days in a row until he finally had to go home, get a normal night.

Starting point is 00:30:40 So he's telling the story and I'm like, oh my gosh, how in that heck do I feel so soft every time I hear stories. I know and I'm like, oh my gosh. How in the heck is this? I'm still so soft. Every time I hear stories, I know I can't. You know, another thing too. I've heard you tell some of these stories in the more, or I hear what I realize is that you guys were actually more poor than I think we were.

Starting point is 00:31:02 And I think in the podcast, people probably think, because I've told some, or hinted to, or told some stories about a little bit of my childhood, I just think that my parents didn't have the discipline your parents did. Like, I think we absolutely had as much income or more income, they were just horrible with it. So we ended up getting evicted from houses.

Starting point is 00:31:21 I've seen food stamps. We've had the church donate food to us a bajillion times. But that's because they would get a little money and then they would spend all of it. Because we had things like soda and ho-hoes and stuff like that inside our house where it's like, and looking back now as an adult and I think about like those tough times

Starting point is 00:31:38 they go like, man, that was so irresponsible, the things that we were buying and doing where I feel like your family was just like, Yeah, my mom made, she made our bread, she made our pasta, we ate meat once a week if we could afford it. I mean, she made it, I wasn't cloth diapers. You know, again, my dad worked as many jobs, and so we spent nothing. And when we did go on a trip,

Starting point is 00:32:06 it was a big deal, and the trip was usually driving an hour and a half up to the hills over here to go camping. That would be our trip. And we'd all sleep in one tent, and we'd do that, and then that was a big vacation type of deal. We did, it's very similar,

Starting point is 00:32:20 like all camping growing up, and the only thing I, I mean, that's crazy. But one thing that my parents did do a lot was make everything. My dad like built our entire house like everything we had was like built or like you know something from like the bargain bars. It's like a second hand. Did he really build the house? You guys living? Oh I didn't know that. He built the house. Oh, no shit. Yeah, everything. How old were you when he did that? I wasn't born yet.

Starting point is 00:32:48 Oh, wow. Yeah, so my brother was, and so they actually were like staying at my mom, like my grandparents, and a bit. Were you raised in that house? Yeah. Oh, so were you only in that one house, growing in the one house? No shit, I didn't know that about you.

Starting point is 00:33:02 Yeah, so, I mean, the thing is, they're just so much more resourceful and like handy. And that's where that whole handy stuff, like my dad's been trying to pass it on to me forever just because like, you know, it's, we went through a lot of like moments where we didn't have any money and we just had to figure it out in terms of like, you know, trade or like build things and then sell the things that we built.

Starting point is 00:33:27 Right? And so I helped him some times with that and like we would build sheds and I would go to, you know, do jobs and stuff in the neighborhood with him and we would just go to the neighbor and we'd get money that way. But yeah, it was like, it's different times, you know? It's like it's these different kind of values that get instilled that way. I feel like, you know, it's, it, it was like, it's different times, you know? It's like it's, these different kind of values that get instilled that way, I feel like, you know, it makes you think about that,

Starting point is 00:33:50 like your next generation of the kids after you, you're like, oh man, like I don't wanna lose all of that, you know, because it's good to have that. Yeah, as I didn't realize that you came from that, that much of humble beginnings either. I really thought that you were a little bit. I think that's why, I think that's why all the world different, we have a lot in common.

Starting point is 00:34:06 I usually say we're probably, I wish we had like the actual income of our parents so we could compare. It's probably pretty damn close. Maybe, yeah. Well, I was, I was misguided because I thought we were fine, you know, because like it would grow and up, you know, I just say, yeah, but that's awesome to me that's, I came here, I didn't realize.

Starting point is 00:34:19 They did a really good job of not letting us know that we were poor. Yeah, I didn't realize it either. Yeah, I had no idea, even though my mom would make my Halloween costumes. It's amazing that the three of us are friends with Doug considering he came from so much white privilege. I never did.

Starting point is 00:34:32 I know. So, which is not really true. Yeah, you can drop off in a Bentley and you can just get over here. He's a Vanderbilt. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:41 Good. Good. Fucking yuppie. I have a baby leaker over here. They might dad built our house too. Oh, he's a middle school principal. He didn't have a huge income. And they they scrimped and saved and it paid off. Yeah, it's it's their their practices. It's like a like financial practices and just like with exercising nutrition, it's like, you know what it is? You look at the people who make it big and you think, wow, you just make it big and that's,

Starting point is 00:35:11 you usually it's just, it's this daily, like my dad was telling us, he goes, he goes, I tell you what, he goes, it's like, and he used analogy of a car, it's like your first gear, second gear, but then when you're cruising, you could start to cruise. He goes, it took us decades before we were kind of cruising. He goes, but literally it was day to day where we barely made it.

Starting point is 00:35:35 We barely made it, we barely made it, but we didn't buy nothing. I mean, to this day, if I tell my dad, I got my oil changed, he doesn't say anything. I know he bites his tongue, but I can see the look on his face, because to him, he's like, we're like, I have a gardener who mows along. I can't, he came over once, there was a guy mowing my lawn and I can see my dad. It's like, it's a stranger motor.

Starting point is 00:35:56 No, my dad, no, no, no, he stands there like this on his hands on his hand and he watches the guy, make sure it does good jobs. He's like watching the guy who's serving him though. Now, okay, so how much do you guys, and Doug, you included too with Bree? Like, I'm curious how much do you guys communicate to your kids about finances? I know Justin brought up on the show a long time ago.

Starting point is 00:36:17 I loved what he did with his kids and the chores and that, but how much conversation, especially you since years and you, because you guys are both getting like teenage years where like money is probably more obvious to them. Like what do you guys do right now to instill like good behaviors around it or to include them and on your on the finance finance?

Starting point is 00:36:36 Boy, that's a tough one, because it's hard, because I've never been in this situation before, right? I wasn't like this when I was a kid, but I think it was Arthur Brooks who told me, I think it was Arthur Brooks, who told me, I think it was him. One of the best things you could do for that is to have your kids volunteer. They're time. He says, because that will teach them. I don't remember what movie I was watching a movie, and there was a wealthy family in the movie. It was depicted in the 1800s. And then the wealthy family was in,

Starting point is 00:37:05 I don't remember where they were, but they were volunteering their time helping people who were starving. And the mother had a conversation with their boy, and the boy was like seven in the movie, and they're really, really super rich, right? And the conversation she had with them was, we were blessed to have this abundance.

Starting point is 00:37:24 We have a responsibility to be a good example, to help others and to create things that helps others. And I said, wow, what a different message versus the, we're rich, we should feel guilty. Yeah. Which is totally different, right? Feeling guilty is different than saying, I'm in this position, I feel a really sense, the sense of pride and responsibility

Starting point is 00:37:47 to do something good. Because I'm in this position, totally different. So that's what I try to communicate to them. It's like, hey, you have this talent, you have this ability, do something with it, because you have a responsibility to contribute to society in a good way. Not like a, you know, like, oh, you should feel bad

Starting point is 00:38:04 for this or guilty for us. Like, no, you're in a position to, not like a, you know, like, oh, you should feel bad for this or guilty for us. Like, no, you're in a position to do something with it, then do something, don't waste it, type of deal. Doug, do you, and breathe out conversations around this? We do sometimes, yeah, I try to give her some little hints and tips along the way without being too preachy. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:19 One of the things we had a little conversation about was pain or self-first. In other words, you know, when you get, when you start working, and you start making money, you carve some of that off and you put that away first. You pay yourself before you pay anybody else. Because most people go through life,

Starting point is 00:38:33 they're paying everybody else first. And then by the time they get to saving some money and keeping some for themselves, they have nothing. And so they have nothing by the time that they're retirement age. Yeah. But Breeze really actually, she's quite funny. She's very careful with money. She's not like, oh, I'd stag money. I'm gonna go below it. I don't think that's funny at all. I think you had everybody. You're the one who's the most conservative with your money. She's learning it from her dad. Oh, probably. I mean, so, but, you know, the thing is, some kids take

Starting point is 00:39:02 advantage of that, right? It's like, oh yeah, dad's money, it doesn't matter. Yeah. He'll buy it. Oh, I broke this, no problem. He'll get a new one, that type of thing. Yeah. No, she's like really careful with that. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:39:14 And so we're shopping, I go shopping with her every so often. And we're at the store and she goes, oh, I like that, but it's too expensive, you know. Oh, great. I mean, I think that's a testament to you, Doug. I think, I mean, we've talked about this before. Kids don't do what you say, they do what you do. 100% and I think your behaviors around money, okay?

Starting point is 00:39:34 I know I've only been with you for a little over seven, eight years now, is you have incredible discipline around that. He's not a miser, he's just not full. I tease him like he's a miser, he's not a miser, but you take care of the things that you do buy. You don't buy, just spend money frivolously. You save, you invest, you, so I mean, she has to, and she's old enough and smart enough

Starting point is 00:39:57 to see that, you know. So I think that you know, you know, one thing that I've done, this was from Jessica that I thought was really good. Cause you go through this as a parent, you buy your kids something and then they don't wear it or they don't use it. So they'll ask for something, oh can I have this and then you get it and then they don't use it or they don't wear it, right? So they got to pay it back. So that's what I started doing. Hey that dress that I got, you're not wear it cost me this much.

Starting point is 00:40:21 Oh shit. You have to pay for it. Dude we've done some real similar where we have them put on like Facebook market and then they have to sell it. So like I like that. That's even better. So because then they have to learn the process. Mark or there's like, but that's the thing. We didn't have those resources at our disposal back then, but it's like bring it into like sort of this 20, you know, this, this news kind of um, our landscape that we have like, it's, it's basically like your lemonade stand at this point. That is such a, that's so true. Yeah. So we're trying to, we're trying to do that more because it's like, don't disrespect your stuff. Like, like, all this stuff has value. And you know, and that's just the whole

Starting point is 00:41:07 thing is like, I don't want it to be like, like Doug saying, like, I have this and it's just like, oh, you'll just get me another one. Yeah. No, you're not getting another one. No, I love that idea. Like, I'm trying to think, of course, I'm ahead of myself a little bit, right? Because my son's only three. But come a time real soon here where I can communicate things. And what a great idea is the kids already got way too many toys in my opinion as it is. And some of them have like tracks that are got a lot of value to them that I could probably flip on Facebook.

Starting point is 00:41:34 So teaching him that when he comes to me eventually, right? When he can probably get around six and seven when that age where they're starting to like really ask for things like, okay, you want that? Well, that's this much. We need to sell so much stuff of this in order to buy that. Show them how to do it.

Starting point is 00:41:49 Yeah, I mean, that's so good. Yeah, I really like that idea. It's literally started it, so. You know what, God goes through it. So I said, What a good skill too. Yeah, no, great skill, right? So you teach them how to do it

Starting point is 00:41:59 and then in addition to that too, it makes them like really go, oh wow, do I really want that new toy? Because if I got to sell these five things that I kind of like, maybe I won't, maybe I don't want it that bad. You want to know what's crazy about this, is that Jessica's, she reads a lot about child psychology development, she's also incredibly intuitive.

Starting point is 00:42:18 So trip off this, right? So obviously, okay, so a railiest is like, what is he, 22 months now? And you know, people always, we have a big family. I mean, you guys know this, and people want to buy your kid shit all the time. So if we put all those toys out, it's just a bunch of toys.

Starting point is 00:42:31 She goes, check this out. When I take 90% of the toys and put them in storage and I only put out two or three and make it look will organized, he plays more. And it's true. Yeah. He actually goes and plays more. And it's true. Yeah. He actually goes and plays more. And she's reading how kids get overwhelmed. When they have a bunch of shit, they end up doing nothing. When they have like two or three things and it looks clean, they go and they actually spend more tests.

Starting point is 00:42:55 So actually it's not just more inviting. It's also waste. It's wasteful. Even because they don't use. Yeah. We teach Max. So Katrina teaches Max this right now. Where so we have that closet that we converted and I have everything like stored nice and Tupperware it out and like containers of like different types of toys because he does have a bajillion toys But he's only allowed to bring like a couple out at a time So it's like he gets his cars out and then you could play cars and then when he wants to do something else and he goes in there We stop him and we'll hold on let's put your it's put your monster trucks away and then you can pull that out and then you can play with that for a while.

Starting point is 00:43:27 Okay, so similar kind of like thing. I really like and I'm trying to think of obviously, again, I'm early, but I'm trying to think already trying to wrap my brain around how I'll do this, but I send that video you guys over to you guys of Alex Hormosi and Grant Cardoam conversation, which was a great conversation. Great investment conversation. Great conversations on YouTube. It's on Alex Hormozzi's YouTube channels

Starting point is 00:43:49 about an hour conversation that he had with Grant that he paid huge money to have by the way and he put live for people to watch. I thought it was great. But Grant, and it was just a short minute, he kind of went over it real quick and I thought, oh, that's cool. He teaches his kids about passive income.

Starting point is 00:44:05 So when they want something, he actually gets them to take their money that would be allowance, or they earned it, doing chores, or whatever it is. And instead of going and buying that toy, it convinces them to invest it, and wait until the investment starts to pay dividends, or has a passive income, and then you could take your passive income

Starting point is 00:44:23 and buy whatever you want. And so he's constantly teaching them to take the money and invest it in things that will create money and then wait until that builds up enough to go buy what you want. So that's the difference between earning an hourly wage and having your money make money for you. That's how you build. Otherwise, if you're earning an hourly wage, your two options are make more per hour at some point like how far as I could go or work more hours, which is a lot more. It's the grind. Yeah, it's a lot more time.

Starting point is 00:44:50 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, super smart. I think I do that with not that, but I talk with my kids about education that way just because I mean, and this, you know, we're seeing this right now with the whole, you know, college tuition forgiveness thing or whatever, is that a lot of kids, in part of it is, they've been told this message. Another part of it is that the market signals are so skewed because we guarantee everybody these loans for college. Nobody's looking at the market viability of their education and saying, is the debt worth what this is going to get me on the market, which is a real conversation

Starting point is 00:45:25 that you have to have. So with my kids, now I can pay for their college, but I still say this to them, what do you wanna learn, is it worth X amount of dollars that we're gonna pay for it? If it's not worth that, like if you wanna get a degree in art history, that's fine, but go find a place that'll do it for 500 bucks because that

Starting point is 00:45:47 degree on the market isn't going to earn you $100,000. It's just not going to earn you, which is fine. You can learn it. There's a lot of ways to learn stuff, but it ain't worth a $100,000 debt because that art history is not worth it. You know what it shows? It's so stupid that you have to even have that conversation. Because, and I've heard you talk about this before, and it's so true, and it baffles me that it's not this way.

Starting point is 00:46:11 But the reason why you even have to have that conversation is those loans are protected. And if it was done like a car loan, a house loan, any other loan that you have to do, and it could, because it, keep it to where you can't file for bankrupt. You can't get rid of your, your student loans in bankrupt. If they allowed it to get, well't file for bank rob. You can't get rid of your student loans of bank rob. If they allowed it to get,

Starting point is 00:46:27 for giving in bankruptcy, then that would force the underwriters to write the loan according to the value of what it will project again. And that would solve that issue completely. Yes, and also they're federally back in many other ways. There, they say it has to be, we have to give everybody money

Starting point is 00:46:44 because everybody needs to have an education. So what happens is you go to the bank and you say, I want a loan for college, well you're gonna get it. If it was market-based, you would go. Well, just simply. Well, meanwhile, the colleges know that you're getting these loans so they can hike their prices.

Starting point is 00:47:01 They want to ask for an hour's. By the way, it's crazy. It's not that the college, like there's a guy owns colleges and he's like, yeah, he's rubbing his hands. Of course. Of course. By the way, it's not that the college, like there's a guy owns colleges, and he's like, yeah, he's rubbing his hands. It's just a market. No. So if you went to the bank and you said,

Starting point is 00:47:12 hey, I want to get a loan for $50,000 for a degree. If it was market-based, you know what the college would say? What degree? What, let me look at your credit score. Let me look at your history. Is there collateral? And you're like, well, I want to get a art history degree. And they're going to be like, I hate, I'm sorry, I'm picking on that.

Starting point is 00:47:28 Just off the top of my head. They're going to be like, we're not going to give you 50 grand for that. Well, computer science. Okay. I think we'll give you more or we will. And you're going to get charged a crazy interest rate so they can get a lot of big chunk of that out. Or you need to put a down payment on that.

Starting point is 00:47:41 Or you need to put some collateral on it. Yes. Like if it was just done like every other loan is done, it would solve that conversation. You know how many options you would have, by the way, for school, if it wasn't so easy to get money, you'd still, education is still required, marketplace still requires it.

Starting point is 00:47:55 You would just have a lot of great, a lot more options. You would have paid $300 for textbook and a college course because there would be colleges that would say, hey, you know what, we got kids that wanna go to to school here, they can't get alone for whatever reason. Well, it's all streaming here, come to our college, we'll only charge you this much. You'd have way more competition. Instead, you have these resort colleges. I've, look, I'm touring them because my son's going to go to college in a year.

Starting point is 00:48:19 I'm going to, on some of these universities, like what that, no wonder they're so expensive. The best gyms I've ever seen. I've been in gyms my whole life. I've never seen gyms as amazing as these college gyms. I mean, they are, they put commercial gyms the shame. I see stuff on campuses, restaurants and lounge areas. Like I'm sending my kid to freaking an all-inclusive resort. No wonder it's so expensive, you know? But why?

Starting point is 00:48:43 Because everybody's got money to pay for these schools. So the price, if you look at inflation, and then you match up the cost of higher education, higher education far exceeds it. And what they're gonna do by forgiving, and I'm gonna go to rant, but by, quote unquote, making the taxpayer pay for these loans, is they're just throwing gasoline on the fire, making it worse.

Starting point is 00:49:04 The guys from all-in podcast. If you don't listen to that podcast, it's such a great conversation around this topic. And I thought like, freeberg nailed it again. Like, he went, he actually went off on it because he just thinks it's like destroying our country by doing this. It is. And in today's market with streaming where I I could literally send just an information, almost for free instantly.

Starting point is 00:49:27 It makes zero sense that you're gonna get a degree in whatever you're gonna do, unless it's a highly competitive market and a highly regulated, like if you wanna be a doctor there's only one way to go, you have to go to certain. But for a lot of degrees, it makes no sense, I'm gonna go take out a loan for $50,000, $60,000 to get it. The only reason why that happened is that the market has been so skewed by well-intentioned

Starting point is 00:49:52 people and economic ignorance by the average voter. Because right now, the average voter is like, yeah, we should forgive loans. Not realizing you're literally adding more to the same reason why it's so crazy in the first place. You're going to make this the same reason why it's so crazy in the first place. You're gonna make this problem so much more worse. Forget the moral issue of the reason why, it's weird that we're making people pay for other people and whatever, it's gonna make the problem worse.

Starting point is 00:50:14 But you know, that's what ends up happening. And we keep skewing the market. So we'll see college will get approximately $20,000 more expensive here in the market. It's not for gift. I mean, just shouldn't hit that so true. Yeah. Dude, meanwhile, Missouri's bringing back

Starting point is 00:50:29 paddling for punishment. Oh, what? Yeah. Shut up. Do you hear about that? I'm so pro that. Yeah. No.

Starting point is 00:50:37 That's what you would be. There was once, it was, was it one school? That's half a wish wrong with this generation. They didn't get spanked, bro. You fucking bitch. It's not the solution. This was one school that was at the whole. have a new generation, they didn't get spanked, bro. You fucking believe it's not the solution. This was one school that was at the whole. Yeah, it was one school in the district.

Starting point is 00:50:50 But yeah, I think there's other states that actually don't have a lot of rural punishment still within school districts that looked at up Doug, but I just thought that was crazy. It's like in terms of where we are now in today's landscape and everything, it's like all of a sudden now you're seeing Sort of this regression now like well maybe because we we got so out of whack. It's this

Starting point is 00:51:13 You know crazy correction. I disagree with this But I will you know it's funny I don't you'll go back to your if I wish it was like this and I wish it was free mark I don't think that everybody should I think it should be in a situation where we could, I would love to compare. I would love to have schools that do, the schools that don't, it's your choice as a kid. You could go to where you want and then you've let it, let the market decide.

Starting point is 00:51:32 To be fair too, I guess, this was, this all required parents to opt into this. Of course. So like they, and there's a limit, right? And then some parents opt out. I can't be the only person who's pro-spanking. But hold on,

Starting point is 00:51:44 what do you want to say? Yeah, but I mean, like, come on. You just want to see, you just want to see other members give you a discount. No, that's all. I don't know about a teacher, yeah. I mean, I've definitely felt that before. Before you're jealous.

Starting point is 00:51:55 Where you're at the grocery store and you see some kin, you just wished like, I hope that mom should give some good, you know, some of you get to spend him. You know, um, I read an article on, so this was a common thing. I actually think that Jordan Peterson talks about it really well on his book 12 rules I think he does a really good job. He's he's he's pro it. He's pro the and he goes and there's a whole caveat in that

Starting point is 00:52:13 That's right. You have to don't take what I'm saying at a context like go read the damn book, right? So I think it's chapter six and 12 rules of I do because it was actually, it was actually, it was Katrina and I went to that book together and it's an area where I didn't know where she stood on it and where I stood on it. We actually had a really good conversation around it. And I think at a certain age and when you're trying

Starting point is 00:52:40 to grab the attention of the kid over something that is very, very important. Oh, like there's thickest something in an outlet. That's right. Or they walk over and they hit another kid or they do something like that where you wanna catch it in that moment of this behavior is unacceptable.

Starting point is 00:52:55 It takes that little, and you're doing it as a shock and a not to hurt the kid. Like you don't, it's like, and anyone who's been a parent, see, like I can tell how quick I can make my son, like, you know, stop in his tracks with my voice. So it wouldn't take much to whack him on the butt to get his attention of like,

Starting point is 00:53:12 oh, that's not a good behavior, especially since you don't do it. It's just, so I definitely, I do believe, but I know I'm gonna get all kinds of hate for that stuff. I have my own personal belief. I'm against it for the more. I spank my kids twice,

Starting point is 00:53:24 and I remember both times, because it's still, I just didn't feel right. It's like it for the most. I spank my kids twice, and I remember both times because it's still, I just didn't feel right. It's like this little human, and I spank this, I remember I spank my son's hands, and I was like, I still feel bad about it. To this day, yeah, like I could have done it. I could have been different about it. But anyway, I read an article about paddling,

Starting point is 00:53:37 because this was common practice in America. It was. For a long time. And they think, in this article, they speculated that the, that the reason why getting your bottom spanked became like the sexual thing for adults was because teenage boys and we're getting spanked during the time when they were coming of age and feeling sexual urges. So you got this older teacher, older teacher spanking your butt, you're getting,

Starting point is 00:54:04 and they became imprinted with this and sexual arousal sure and so they think this is the reason Oh, I can't wait the madams and mistresses you're the thing you're not Oh, sorry, he's excited So funny, sorry anyway, Adam. How's your fast going? I'm on everybody on your on your. I'm on day two right now. Day two. You're doing three full days. Yeah, so it's me my first time actually going 72 hours. So I've never done three full days. I've done two days a few times and quite a few times.

Starting point is 00:54:33 I've done single days, but I was thinking about it a while back. And we used to talk about it a lot. Remember there was a kick through you went on for a while. We're almost every month. You were kicking a month off with like a fast. And you know, it's been a while since I had done that. I said, you know, this would be a good time for me to do it right now.

Starting point is 00:54:52 And so I started it on Sunday night, today's Monday right now. So it's, you know, I'm over, over 24 hours into it already. And you know, it's funny how,'s funny how once you get to this point where you're beyond a day, like how a cucumber sounds so good right now. How much I feel like we really operate. Our senses are dulled.

Starting point is 00:55:17 They are. We operate in the place of like, I would say 99% of just cravings. Like it's never really like true hunger. And it's like, has once that like true kind of hunger kicks in, literally the things that I don't like, it sound good because it's got nutritional value to it. And it's just like, I would love a carrot right now.

Starting point is 00:55:37 I would love these are foods that I don't even like really. But I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I mean I I I I cumber carrot yeah zucchini's next thing eggplant bananas of course you guys would go yeah of course you guys would go that way popsicles yeah you ever see I go there there's only one proper way to eat a banana by the way you ever ever see you got to slice it off with a knife yeah

Starting point is 00:56:01 knife of course yeah the only way I eat my banana I'm on a no, I'm gonna, no food, no sex, no weed. So I'm doing all three that I'm, I cut out this starting this weekend and stuff. So, so far so good. I mean, everything's doing really good. It's perfect timing for me too. So I up my hero win.

Starting point is 00:56:20 Yeah, it's all the other things that I took over. No, no, it's been, it, no, it's been really good. I'm getting ready right now, so tonight I will actually, tonight will be challenging because I'm actually going to prep while I'm going through the fast. Wait, oh, meal prep? Yeah, yeah. Because I want to be ready when I come out of it. I know one of the things I remember from the last 48 hour fast I did, it's like, boy,

Starting point is 00:56:41 your stomach is really sensitive the most few days. Yeah. The first day afterwards, a lot of like broth and easy digestible type of things. So that'll be first and then I'll after that I'll get it. What are you prepping? Well I'm doing obviously I don't have to prep broth and stuff but that's actually I'll come out of it with like chicken broth and things that are really easy. But then I'm gonna go like basically chicken and turkey and then a rice and sweet potato.

Starting point is 00:57:04 So real basic, I know that butcher boxes doing this two pound thing that they're giving away right now for all your people that sign up. And I know Katrina just changed our box over to a bunch of chickens. So I'm gonna barbecue a bunch of chicken. Thighs, right? Yeah, I like the thighs.

Starting point is 00:57:19 They're doing breast is what they're giving away for free right now. But I'm not a big chicken breast person anymore. Like once I did the math on the macros, I was like, why was I punishing myself and eating chicken press all the time? I've been no sense. All the save 20 calories or something. Wow.

Starting point is 00:57:33 So you're going to straight, straight prep style. Yeah. Well, I've been prepping a little bit already. Like, so I've been pretty good for, I want to say three, four weeks now where I've been actually, I'm not measuring it. So I should, should say that right, because everyone's've been actually, I'm not measuring it, so I should say that, right? Because everyone's used to me when I'm talking about prep or with it. I'm not weighing at all and I'm not like,

Starting point is 00:57:51 so I'm not trying, I'm not tracking my master. This is phase one. Exactly. I mean, right now I'm just making good food choices, having meals prepared that are balanced and good for me, eating when I'm hungry, disciplining myself, not to fall into the cravings and making a choice.

Starting point is 00:58:07 I tell you what, I think every time I do stuff like this too, I'm reminded of how challenging, yet easy it really is to get in shape. And let me explain. Like every time I'm like this, there's always a moment in the day or the evening where I have a quote unquote craving. And many times I'm, I haven't hit my daily maintenance of calories. I should probably hit and I need more food. And if I just make the decision

Starting point is 00:58:38 to go eat the balanced prepped meal that I have in there, I feel amazing. I continue to lean out. I continue to build muscle. It's that when instead, what I really felt like having is a thing of ice cream or like some chips or crackers or snack stuff, versus just going and having a meal like that. And I always catch myself having that feeling and then going, oh cool, I have that prepped meal, I go eat it. And then as soon as I eat cool, I have that prep meal, I go eat it.

Starting point is 00:59:05 And then as soon as I eat it, I'm completely satisfied. I feel so good afterwards. It tastes good even going down, but there's that it's that mental game that you put that moment where you just have to have that discipline of like making the better choice. It's like, it reminds me of the generic advice that we give today about like clients

Starting point is 00:59:24 and telling them like, I don't need a client to weigh and track and measure. It's just in those moments, make the decision to eat the whole foods. And I'm not going to tell you you can't. If you're hungry, go eat. Like literally, go eat. But make that choice. Make a choice that is balanced like that. Game changer.

Starting point is 00:59:41 Yeah. And don't eat processed crap. And I guarantee you will lean out and get in shape. It's just having the discipline to not do the other stuff. This is why I also think that the movement we haven't talked about in a long time, the when we used to get on the IFYM thing so hard, because it allows you to put in the process foods and do other stuff. So that's a lot of people do with it. Yeah, so it fits the macros. And then you're challenged again with those cravings. So you actually, yeah, you allow yourself to do those things

Starting point is 01:00:09 so I get it and so maybe it allows some balance. And I'm not saying that I 100% always eat perfectly whole foods. But if you just focus on that, it actually makes the craving part so much easier than trying to fit it in your macros and be consistent for longer. Because before long, when you're just eating those whole foods, it doesn't take that long. I would say for me, I noticed it around weeks two to three when I stopped craving those

Starting point is 01:00:35 things so much. I'll tell you right now, if somebody needed to lose 30 pounds, if all they did was eat whole natural foods and nothing else, I bet you they would lose at least 15 to 20 pounds just from doing that alone. Maybe the last 10, they would require a little bit of dialing. But the first 15 to 20, they would eat as much as they want, whole natural food. That's just my experience training clients. I mean, that's, I think, the solution. It's 80% of the solution.

Starting point is 01:01:01 And that's what I meant by it's easy yet challenging. It's literally that easy because we try and over-copicate things with the calorie counting, the macro breakdown. So at that, like, eat whole foods. Every time you go to eat them, make sure a majority of it's coming from protein. You'll be fine.

Starting point is 01:01:18 You'll be fine. Don't be distracted. You're good. Yeah. Hey, check this out. This is company we work with called Elemente and they make electrolyte powder, no artificial sweeteners,

Starting point is 01:01:27 with the right amount of sodium to power you through your workouts, to help with low carb dieting, it helps with the cravings, helps with the muscle cramps. Basically makes you feel better. It tastes amazing, and it's got the right amount of sodium.

Starting point is 01:01:40 It's a real effective electrolyte powder, again, no artificial anything. Also, right now, element is offering our listeners a free sample pack with any orders. That's eight single serving packets for free with any element order. Just go to drinklment.com forward slash mind pump. All right, here comes the rest of the show. All right, here goes. Our first caller is James from Australia.

Starting point is 01:02:07 James, what's happening? How can we help you? Hey guys, so I've been listening to you guys for about three or four years now and yeah, no, you guys have helped me hate so long away and it's good to hear some real truths about fitness and health in general. My question is, so I feel I'm in pretty good physical shape at the moment. I go to the gym about five to six times a week.

Starting point is 01:02:36 I usually for about once to two hours. I'd say I'm about 9% body fat and quite mastering lean and have been in this shape for the last three years. I work in corporate nine to five. I'm extremely busy all the time and I quite often have a lot of fatigue. At one stage, I thought I could have had a bit of chronic fatigue.

Starting point is 01:02:57 I've wanted to have my down time and I'm studying a new job soon and it's gonna be really important for me to prioritize learning this job. And I'll probably need to cut back on exercise to do so. That's probably going to be pretty hard for me because in the past I've relied on exercise for my mental health benefits. I've had challenges in the past with mental health, so it might

Starting point is 01:03:27 be hard for me to cut down on it because I'm pretty reliant on it. So yeah, so basically my question is, is there a way to keep my current shape that I have physically with less time in the gym, or do I need to keep my current shape that I have physically less time in the gym. Or do I need to adjust my mindset and expectation of how lean and muscular I want my body to be? And part two, from the diet perspective, if I'm working out less, should I reduce my calories? Okay, let's go with the first one, the first part of that question. I want to know more to about how his training is.

Starting point is 01:04:05 If you're training five, six days a week, what does it look like typically? Well, before we get there, James, you said that you need the mental aspect of exercise, but your question is, is my body going to change? So, is it the exercise itself or the mental part of not looking a particular way? I need to understand that before not looking a particular way. I need I need to understand that before we get a little deeper. Yeah, look, it's it's a bit of both. It's the exercise for sure. But I do find I'm probably a bit obsessive about staying laying in my muscular. Just for a bit of background, I sort of in my early 20s, I got up to about 233 pounds.

Starting point is 01:04:45 I'm in Australia, so I looked it up before I got on. And now I'm down to about 191 and have been that life for a while. So there is a little obsessive aspect to staying lying and balancing full time job and doing that. Okay. I want to caution you on something I heard you say too. You said, I am and I need.

Starting point is 01:05:09 And if you are, if you're saying that to yourself already, it's gonna be really, no matter what advice, sell or any of us give you right now, it's gonna be really tough for you to break free from that. So the very first thing that has to change before you're working out has to change is that you identify with this way. Like you're saying, I am and I need

Starting point is 01:05:28 is like a very powerful statement to put over yourself. So keep that in mind as like we're going through and giving you advice on how we might want to change the way you lift and eat. Yeah, such great, such a wise thing to say, Adam, and also consider, you know, if you're looking to do this for the rest of your life, and you're noticing some of the benefits of exercise, the positive benefits

Starting point is 01:05:49 of exercise, because it's such a powerful tool that it can also go dark, right? There's also dark sides, and people can become obsessive and all that stuff. But you're noticing a lot of the positives. And if you want to make this a life-long journey, one of the things that you have to start to begin to understand is that it's a tool that can change

Starting point is 01:06:09 and you can manipulate it to improve the quality and context of your life. It is not life itself. Okay, so exercise is not life itself. It's a tool that improves, it can improve life, can improve the context of life. So that's the big picture thing, but let's spoil down now to more of the specifics.

Starting point is 01:06:26 Adam originally had asked you what your workouts look like. Let's get into that for a little set for a second here. So you work out five or six days a week, what kind of routine do you typically do? And are you still experiencing lots of fatigue at the moment before you even change out of anything? So actually in the last two weeks, since sending the question,

Starting point is 01:06:45 I've tried my hardest to cut down. So I've been doing about four days a week now. But so over the last couple of years, it was, yeah, five, six days, and it would be sort of an upper lower split. No set program, which I know you guys will hate, but sort of an upper lower split and then focusing on areas as I go that I feel that I need to within that sort of outline.

Starting point is 01:07:14 Yeah. How long are the workouts or how intense are the workouts? Yeah, I mean, sort of first few years pretty intense. And yeah, probably an hour and a half on average outside. And how do you feel right now? Are you noticing? Well, first off, how did you feel before? Were you having a lot of fatigue and then has there been any changes since you went

Starting point is 01:07:36 to four days a week? Yeah, yeah. There was some times where I'd be like in Monday and working from home and I'd be like on the couch with laptops so tired and yeah, it felt like there was something something wrong all my so I went in a bloodstun and stuff. And then since cutting down, yeah, I could I feel a little bit a little bit better, a bit more energy, which is good. So okay, now the second, now the part of the question where you said, you know, what's gonna happen

Starting point is 01:08:06 basically to my body if I work out less? Based off the information you're giving me, your body's gonna improve. Yeah. So here's the beauty of the way you're kinda being forced is that you may actually notice the wonderful side effect of better results, you know, better aesthetic results. Now, I'm going to caution you, don't focus so heavily on the aesthetics

Starting point is 01:08:29 because what'll do, it'll push you into doing the more camp. What I think you should focus on is the feeling better side. So, okay, I'm doing less, I'm feeling better, let me keep focusing on that. And then you're going to be surprised, this happened to me years ago, I had a health scare. And it was a side effect of the fact that I focused on my health. I had to ignore aesthetics because it's mentally what I had to do in order to continue improving my health in a year into this journey. I realized I look better than I ever had before and that's when I pieced it together and said, oh, yeah, if I'm healthy, I'm going to look great. But based off of what you're telling

Starting point is 01:09:00 me, you're probably going to get stronger, you're probably going to have more energy, you're probably going to improve your ability to stay lean, not reduce your ability, because it sounds to me like you're just doing too much. You've already switched to four days a week and already noticed that you feel better. I think you're going in the right direction. That's what I think.

Starting point is 01:09:22 Yeah, it's going to give you better results. James, have you followed any maps programs? I have, I've had a few friends that have been, I've had really good results, but I haven't. No, no FOMO there. No FOMO. Shame on you, James. There is a bit.

Starting point is 01:09:40 I mean, to me, this conversation screams maps and a ball, and going down to a three day week full body routine and the other thing that I would even add because I Just the wild guess you probably are a Super set love to train to fail your type of guy, too, okay? So not only would I make you go to Imagine I know I know I. I would make the wizard. I would make you go to maps and a ballic and the thing is if I was your coach

Starting point is 01:10:09 that I would stress is two in the tank. I would say no, we're not training to failure in this program, follow it to a tee, everywhere that it says a rep range, you better be able to get two more. I better not see you struggling to get the last rep up or not being able to get the last rep up. You're moving too much weight.

Starting point is 01:10:26 So I'd make you do that. And I would just say, trust the process. I believe what I'm, where you're at shape and I bet you, you're going to get what Salah sang. And the hardest part for you is going to be the mental switch is going from the six day week training with intense, super sets, failure guy. Now also you get to follow this three day week, full body routine and your coach Adam is telling you to go two in the tank, never go to failure,

Starting point is 01:10:48 sit in that rest and not do anything. Yes, and watch your body respond to you because for once you're actually working with it versus against it. I mean, you have reached your success with your physique where you're at right now in spite of doing it the way your body wants you to do it. Now, if you start to train it the way it wants you to train it,

Starting point is 01:11:09 I bet you you get even better results, you feel better with less work. Yeah, and then the second part about your diet, you know, you're saying you're pretty lean, you know, in your question, you wrote about 9% or so. So, I mean, you're in the lean, percent range body fat. I wouldn't change your diet. I would keep the calories the same in fuel, what's probably going to be more muscle growth. So I would allow, I'll keep the diet the same. What's happening to me

Starting point is 01:11:36 right now, as I'm listening to you, is you're overtraining for your body right now, and you need less exercise, and your body needs to repair and refuel. So I keep the calories the same, I do mass and a ballic and then what's probably going to happen is you're going to gain muscle. You're going to gain muscle and as a result of that your body fat percentage might actually go down, not because you're necessarily losing body fat but rather because you gained a few pounds of muscle.

Starting point is 01:12:01 So you're overall body fat now just a smaller percentage of your body weight. I've experienced this myself, I've dropped their volume down and I got leaner, even though I was eating the same. So that's what I would do. I would not have you do a cut at all. I'd have you eat the same, follow a program like MAP's on a ball, and probably by week three or four, you're going to be like, oh crap, this is exactly what I needed. Doug will send that over to you. Yeah. Does that make sense, yeah? Yeah,, it does. I think that's probably what I needed to hear. I had, I had inklings that that was the case, but you know, no, I'm actually kind of looking forward to having more time in the, and hopefully, hopefully, well, keeping,

Starting point is 01:12:46 I wanna, keeping exactly the same, but you know, being in a decent track. One last thing before you go, James, one, I'd like to hear from you after you've gone through it because I think it's gonna do wonders for you. Two, the last pit of coaching I'm gonna give you is you're also because of the type of person you are, you're gonna have a tendency

Starting point is 01:13:04 to wanna get after trigger sessions. Trigger sessions are more designed to be recuperative. So use bands, okay, I'm going to make you, I would not allow to do body weight, I would not allow you to do dumbbells or anything like that. They say you have to use bands, use the lightest, the lightest orange band or whatever color band is the lightest band over there. Use that and you're just doing a little 10 minute, little pump, that's it.

Starting point is 01:13:28 That's all you're allowed to do. Don't let me hear you're turning it into workouts. Three workouts did. Yeah. All right, I promise. I promise. All right, James. We'll see you later.

Starting point is 01:13:37 Now I got it. All right, thank you, James. You got it, man. Thank you. Thanks guys. You got it. What do they use for weight over there? You said you had to look up at? Kilograms. Is it a kilogram? Yeah, yeah. That's it. What are they, what are they used for weight over there? Said you had to look up at?

Starting point is 01:13:45 Kilograms. Is it, is it Kilogram? Yeah, yeah. That's right. I weigh two and a half stone. Stone, yeah, that's an ex. I weigh two and a half kangaroos or something like that. All right, that's enough.

Starting point is 01:13:55 I was waiting for that. You know what's funny is, Walla B's. Yeah, people tell, they suggested, I'm not the only one that said like it. You know what's funny about this is you train, you reduce the, when you're slightly over train or you're doing too much,

Starting point is 01:14:09 people are so afraid of bringing the volume down or the intensity down because like, oh my God, my body is gonna go downhill in terms of the way it looks. It's like, no, it actually looks better and people are blown away by this. Like, this just makes sense. I'm doing lessons. Like they get nervous about it.

Starting point is 01:14:25 Yes, I can't do this, even though it's like working, just because it's so different than what they're doing. Totally, and what Adam said is 100%. Like he looks and feels the way he does, in spite of his crappy workout program, it's not working for him. So it's like you end up getting better results by doing less, I've, look, I've gone through,

Starting point is 01:14:41 I've done this, I don't know, at least 20 times of my personal work on this. He's in a great transition for this too. And what I would be really interesting if he was a client, I've gone through, I've done this, I don't know. I don't know, at least 20 times. Am I personal work out for real? He's in a great transition for this too. And what I would be really interesting, if he was a client or hopefully we can catch back up with them is I bet. So one of the things I notice when I'm getting chronic fatigue or I'm exhausted like this, or I get bad sleep, or whatever is the cravings are so high when I'm at that state.

Starting point is 01:15:01 And so it's like this mental struggle all the time to be dialed on my diet or I'm always trying to out exercise my bad decision I made earlier in the day or yesterday. And so I think he'll even find the dieting piece will get easier for him when he actually scales back on the intensity and the amount of training that he's doing.

Starting point is 01:15:20 He's gonna hopefully will hear it's 10 times easier to be as fit or fitter. Our next caller is MJ from from Utah MJ. What's happening? How can we help you? I'll be going guys so the other day I was doing dumbbell rows I just started getting the body building and I'm trying to do unilateral movements as I was doing the dumbbell rows on my left side as I'm pulling to the movement I could feel my back being engaged through the entire movement and I can feel that I'm working the muscles in my left side of my back. But on the right side when I'm pulling up, it feels pretty different. I don't feel as much engagement. I feel like I can't flex the right side of

Starting point is 01:15:59 my back. And so I was doing all the research. I'm just building that mind muscle connection. I just want to hear what your guys' thoughts are on how one can go about building muscle connection with any muscle in general. And just like, what are the benefits of doing that if there are any? Yeah, a fun bodybuilding question right here. Yeah, so barring any injuries you've had

Starting point is 01:16:19 or anything like that, which it sounds like you're just regular person working out. The best way to build that mind and muscle connection is repetition and practice. And you're doing unilateral exercise, that's what you need to keep doing. Because if you did a barbell row, or a cable row, something bilateral,

Starting point is 01:16:36 it'd be much harder for you to work on this discrepancy between right to left. So you're doing the right exercise. It's gonna be practice over time. How long does it take to build? Mind and muscle connection. I mean, it's hard to tell you the length of time, but I can tell you this, when you start to be able

Starting point is 01:16:55 to get a pump in the muscle that you're training, that's when the mind and muscle connection really takes off. It's usually, oh my God, I got a pump in my lats for the first time. Then you get this connection to like what that feels like, and then that really starts to take off. It's usually, oh my God, I got a pump in my lats for the first time. Then you get this connection to like what that feels like. And then that really starts to take off. What are the benefits? Well, the benefits are, and the studies actually show this now. We actually have studies that'll back

Starting point is 01:17:14 this up. But you're able to target individual muscles with more tension, even with the same load, meaning you have a more targeted approach to sculpting, building, and shaping your body, which is kind of cool strength training. It's unique to strength training, I can shape my body like a sculptor. So that's kind of the benefit. I actually love helping somebody with this exact problem. So this is super common, by the way, and what is happening, and I'll show you, I'll tell you how to fix this too, really quick actually. So the side that you do better with retracting and depressing the shoulder, like let's say it for a bench press, is the side that you're going to be able to engage the lat better with. The opposite side that you have a harder time with that is going to be the problem.

Starting point is 01:17:57 And so what's happening when you do the row is you're using momentum and rotation from my Theobleaks to actually row up and less of the lat We're the side that you do a really good job of retracting and engaging so retracting the shoulder will then engage the lat You do really well on and the side you don't this is super common like almost Everybody I've ever taught like a dumbbell row for the first time always has one side They're really really good at doing and then the other side they tend to row with momentum and not use the lat so actually this is where I actually change how I teach the exercise until we get this down so I would put you and it's going to be let's see if I hope I can describe this so you can understand if not maybe I'll shoot a short video for you somehow so when

Starting point is 01:18:41 you get down when you get down in the row position, right, you put your knee on the bench and your back is nice and level and flat. Normally what we teach is somebody to kind of drop down and then row up, I will actually keep you in a restricted position. So I will actually tell you, pull the shoulder blades back and I don't want you to let the shoulder to roll forward. Now that is, that country dicks, how we teach in probably our programs and how you'll probably find online. Yeah, that's not where you want to end up.

Starting point is 01:19:09 Yeah, this, but this is to teach you how to engage the lat, because what I'm trying to do is I don't want to allow, when the shoulder rolls forward, the lat tends to relax when you're on the side, you're not good at this at. And then now the shoulder and again, the rotation takes in. So I'm going to keep you with your chest out, your shoulders back. And I'm never going to let that shoulder roll forward in the row while you do it. Never going to let you down.

Starting point is 01:19:36 So and another exercise to practice this, to get good at it, is just your normal seated cable row. When you do a seated cable row, you sit up tall and straight, chest is up, you retract the shoulders. Initially, when I teach this exercise, I'm teaching somebody to retract and squeeze, and I actually don't let them roll the shoulders forward. As they get better at engaging the lats,

Starting point is 01:19:57 I then teach them to allow the shoulders to roll forward and then come back in because we've now figured out that mind. So that question, Adam, would you have them on a inclined bench, a chess supported position? So it's less likely that they're going to be able to get into that rotation. Oh, okay. So you mean doing the row in a inclined? Yes.

Starting point is 01:20:16 Yeah, that's actually a good strategy. You could, but part of what I think what Adam's saying that makes it so effective is learning how to hold yourself in a position first. Right. Whereas you could do that with a bench, and that can help someone who has a tough time getting that position. But maybe a crutch.

Starting point is 01:20:31 Yeah, somebody may just lean on the bench. The key you're going to have to do, MJ, is you're going to have to reduce the weight. Because so definitely go way back on like the amount because now I'm actually making you slowly control, squeeze the lat and resist it with the lat. Don't let the shoulder roll forward, come back, squeeze the lat, don't let the shoulder roll forward.

Starting point is 01:20:49 And I'm going to have you practice that for a while until you really feel a nice engagement the lat. And then I will progress you to, okay, now go ahead, throw a little bit of English in there. Go ahead and let the shoulder roll forward because now you have the ability to mentally stay connected to the lat and you let it go into four range of motion. Now the functional aspect of this from my perspective is in terms of the priming going into that as well. We do have this in prime pro, but in terms of like a scapular circle and doing that up against the wall. And so we did with Dr. Brink.

Starting point is 01:21:26 So you sort of make a fist and you're taking your shoulder through all those different ranges. So I'm protracted, I'm retracted, I'm depressed, and then I'm rolling it kind of forward while squeezing and providing tension there in between my shoulder blade. Just to try and really focus on squeezing

Starting point is 01:21:44 and getting that tense connectivity there. Is that in prime Justin? It's prime pro. It's prime pro. So MJ will definitely send you prime pro. And then I know, I know you can combo with what Adam's talking about. I know you can't see me right now,

Starting point is 01:21:58 but I did it for you. So you'll be able to watch it, hopefully on the video of what I was kind of describing. Does it make sense? I hope we have not like way away off. Does it make sense when I'm trying to communicate? About the about holding your shoulders back when you're doing the last lot of rows. Yes.

Starting point is 01:22:13 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's speed and momentum are your enemy right now. Okay. So slow and less movement is better when you're trying to connect to a muscle. Later on, then you can include more movement. You can include a little bit more momentum

Starting point is 01:22:30 depending on the exercise. Only when you can control and connect. So speed, take that out, go slow, go light and that'll help you and no momentum and that'll help you connect. As a momentum and that'll help you connect as a coach I would actually I would actually do a weight light enough that I would be behind you and I'd be touching your back You're back in your lat going okay retract. Okay. Now when you pull that weight up squeeze and I make you hold it I'd say hold it and I'd be touching your lat like fill your lat squeeze and then I'd be like keep that squeeze now slowly with the dumbbell come forward

Starting point is 01:23:03 But don't let the shoulder roll forward and then I'd be like, keep that squeeze now slowly with the dumbbell come forward, but don't let the shoulder roll forward. And then I'll be like, come back in, squeeze really hard, let the dumbbell come down, but don't let the shoulder roll forward again. And I would, I would be sitting there coaching you like that until we get really good at feeling the lat as you let the arm come down and out. And then eventually, like I said, and by the way, if you Google this or look on you, you're going to get conflicting information about this. This is again, the nuances of what we talk about and do is that here is an example of how

Starting point is 01:23:29 I would break my own rules on how I would teach form and technique on a row. On a row, I actually want a little bit of rotation in there. I want you to stretch the lad out, but when someone is having a hard time firing it, this is just a trainer tip that I've learned over years. One last thing that's kind of cool about this is when you finally are able to connect to a muscle, it's like learning to ride a bike. It's way easier to do it again. It's that initial, oh, I got to feel it and connect to it.

Starting point is 01:23:54 That's the hard part. Once you get to it and you get that pump and you squeeze it. It finds this way to the groove really. Yeah, then you're like, oh, I can do that again. I can reenact that. In Justin's point about prime is really important too because it's hard to tell from the way you're sitting or without assessing you in person, but what's also common is we all are, you know, most everybody's either right

Starting point is 01:24:14 or left handed, right? So you, you tend to, let's say if I'm right handed, my, my right shoulder is rolled forward a little bit more than my left one. And when I go in to do exercises like that, that's the one that has a hard time. So it's normally the hand that you write with or use a lot, it has a hard time retracting the shoulders. So if it's a posture thing, the priming thing than prime that we're giving you a zone one, the exercise Justin saying that'll be really helpful

Starting point is 01:24:39 to do that before you go do what I'm telling you to do right afterwards. But all in all, that should help. So we're going to send you Prime Pro and there's scapular mobility movements in there. Those are the ones that you should probably practice. Yes, scapular circles in particular. Okay, thank you so much. You got to.

Starting point is 01:24:56 So just to recap, what you guys are saying basically is for building my muscle connection, if I'm trying to improve my physique, and any part of my body, start out light, and work into, I can squeeze each individual muscle and then start building the weight up from there. Correct. Yeah, and I'm going to add to that because another common thing when teaching somebody my muscle is people finally figure out how to engage it on the concentric portion, right? So on you rowing up, but then they let it the weight drop down. And part of getting really good at bodybuilding is being able to control the weight on the eccentric portion of the exercise. So on the negative, on the way down, being able to resist it with the lat. So that's part of the coaching that I connected the whole time. The whole time. Like you,

Starting point is 01:25:39 a good body builder will be able to do an exercise and the whole movement on the way up, on the way down and the isolated position, he or her can feel that muscle the entire time and that should be the way you think about lifting when you lift weights. Okay, awesome. All right, thanks for calling in. Yeah, thank you so much for having me guys. You got it.

Starting point is 01:26:01 I'm so glad you went in that direction at him because I love that question. When you're trying to get someone to feel a muscle, you've got, you change the exercise away from its ideal for it. I love this question because there's not a lot of times when we get to exercise our, our trainer brains for the audience to, so they can see the nuances of things that get debated online. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:26:22 This is an area that would, that would piss me off that a kid like this would search for information and or even potentially a coach and then. He'd be like, when I read this and I read this. Or he would be like, oh, my mom said for me to do this and then some other coach would like shit on me. Oh, he doesn't understand biomechanics and range of motion

Starting point is 01:26:37 and then he would just destroy me on what I'm trying to teach this guy. And this is an example of like, there's so much great area to the, a lot of the stuff we talk about. on what I'm trying to teach this guy. And this is an example of like, there's so much gray area to the, a lot of the stuff we talk about. The individualized part of string training, and that's what makes it so effective.

Starting point is 01:26:53 You gotta understand that. And if you're training a specific part or thing, individualizing it to your body and what you need is what's gonna get you there the fastest. But there are general truths, that's also true. But ultimately at the end of the day, it there are general truths. That's also true, but ultimately at the end of the day, it's all about individualization. Our next caller is Kimberly from Colorado. Hey Kimberly, how can we help you? Hey guys, well hello, Sal, Adam, Justin, and Doug,

Starting point is 01:27:15 and everyone behind the scenes. I just want to start off by saying I'm a huge fan. I've been listening for over a year and a half after my boyfriend introduced your podcast to me and since then I've never missed an episode. I want to thank you for the content you provide on a daily basis and the programs that you've created are incredible. We literally have almost every single one. I also love your open discussions in the beginning of the episodes. You guys have me cracking up in the morning at my day to work and you just put me in a great

Starting point is 01:27:39 head space. Something else I really want to mention is that you guys are a big topic in our household, whenever my boyfriend and I are discussing health and fitness, it's often you'll hear us say, like, well, Salas says or Adam says, so I just want to thank you for helping me win some discussions. Other than that, I should also thank you for my Biori and Ali Pop addiction while I'm at it. But anyways, I appreciate you taking the time to hearey Pop addiction while I'm at it. Yeah. Good stuff. But anyways, I appreciate you taking the time to hear my question. So I'll just jump right in.

Starting point is 01:28:10 My question is in regards to macro counting and how important it is to be exact on your macros when tracking. Do you have to be precise with your proteins, carbs, and fats and avoid not going over calories for the day? I often find myself going over my fats, but not reaching my carbs or protein in a day, but have already hit my calories for the day. I often find myself going over my fats but not reaching my carbs or protein in a day but have already hit my calories for that day. I wonder if this results in me not seeing results with my cut that I'm currently doing in regards to the scale. Also how exact do you need to be when you're tracking your food? For example are you meant to be tracking like sauces, beverages, creamers, etc. or are you only focusing on

Starting point is 01:28:42 the food aspect? I would appreciate any guidance you have on this topic as I feel it's the trickiest aspect of weightlifting and living this lifestyle. My background, I'm 29 years old, 5'7, 161 pounds, with 23% body fat according to my weight spill at home. I'm currently in a cut and eating around 1600 calories with my macros set at 160 for protein, 44 fat, 140 for carbs, and I got these numbers from the Mind Pump calculator on mine.

Starting point is 01:29:09 My goal is to lose weight, lower my body fat percentage and see more defined muscles in my body, especially in my legs. I have been on a cut for almost two months with no weight loss. I'm currently in phase three week two of MAP split. I try to get 12 to 14 steps a day and have started to do some cardio following my lifting sessions two to three times a week of either the stair master sprints

Starting point is 01:29:30 for 20 minutes to try and see if that will help my weight loss and lower my body fat. I am scared to go on a bulk and gain weight as I just as before I went into my cut, I was maintaining it 2300 calories and before that I was bulking at 2900 calories. I am going on vacation in less than two weeks, so that is another reason why I have been working extra hard and it's getting shaped. Thank you again for taking the time to listen to my question and hopefully provide some helpful advice.

Starting point is 01:29:56 All right, well there's a lot that I wanna touch here. First off, congratulations, you're in shape, so I think you accomplished. Any found, any found a really good guy, sounds like. Yeah, he sounds like. Oh I sound like he's amazing like he is like a wealth of knowledge for health and fitness and he's really helped me a lot shout out to Sam but really helped me a lot and he introduced me to your podcast like I said and then we for the past year and a half have just been running strictly maps programs. Awesome. All right, so okay, so a couple questions here. I'll answer the easy ones.

Starting point is 01:30:28 Like, when you're tracking, should you count sauces and stuff like, yeah, anything that has calories, anything that has macros, if you are tracking needs to be in, you need to be a part of the equation, because it all counts. It's all going to count. The second part, which is kind of like, I guess the question is kind of like, what's more important calories or macros? Yeah. Okay, if you're hitting your basic needs with your macros, Protein especially protein, but you need a certain amount of protein and fat that are essential. So if you don't hit those, calories don't matter because you literally aren't

Starting point is 01:31:00 going to be able to thrive. So if you hit your essentials and if protein is high, it doesn't make that huge of a difference as long as your calories are the same. In other words, if your 160 grams of protein, 45 grams of fat, 140 grams of carbs, and you're, let's say, 40 grams of fat, but your carbs a little higher, your calories are where they're at,

Starting point is 01:31:23 that's not gonna make that big of a difference. But if you go under 40 grams of fat and that's below your essential fat intake, I don't care what your calories are, your fat's going to matter now. 44 grams of fat, 16 or calories kind of low for someone as active as you are. Now you're saying the scale isn't moving. That doesn't mean you're not necessarily changing or getting leaner. So are you stronger? Is your performance different?

Starting point is 01:31:48 Does your shape feel different? Do you have different energy? Are you doing a body fat test? Because especially someone like yourself at your body weight in your shape, the scale, I wouldn't even look at the scale. I mean, I could put five pounds of muscle on you and you probably like the way you look better and you'd actually go down and body fat percentages as a result, but the scale would be heavier. See what I'm saying?

Starting point is 01:32:07 So, how do you feel? How's your strength? How's your performance? Let's talk about that first. Well, I feel great. And my body is definitely changing. Like, I take progress weeks or progress photos once a week. And I can definitely see, especially in my core, my abs are starting to become more defined.

Starting point is 01:32:24 But then, I am seeing those changes, but I think I was just getting a little defeated with the scale because according to the scale, it hasn't changed, which I guess could be a good thing. I was thinking about it, but my body fat percentage also hasn't changed, so I was just seeing some frustration. As far as strength goes, I do track my weight with every workout. So I always try to go up, especially being in week three of phase three, up split.

Starting point is 01:32:53 I just want to, I know it's higher reps, so it's a little bit harder to go up, but I feel great. And I actually just did 95 pounds for four sets at 20. So I got to 20 reps, so I'll probably go a little bit higher next week. So I am seeing the changes. I guess I was just wondering if I'm doing everything right since the scale hasn't gone down.

Starting point is 01:33:13 Yeah, okay. So you look better in the mirror. You're taking progress pictures. You think your core is leaner. You're stronger. It sounds to me like the scale is a total detriment. Yeah, throw it away. Like stop weighing, I mean, look, we could do it.

Starting point is 01:33:29 I don't think we let, do we, we haven't released the episode where I just recently, yesterday was yesterday when I talked about my client, remember, like literally you were spot on to the conversation that I just had. Yeah, no, it hasn't, it hasn't been dropped yet. So I just, we were about to drop an episode because we did it yesterday of me talking about my client

Starting point is 01:33:44 who by the way is going on vacation of me talking about my client who by the way is going on vacation in two to three weeks, who by the way is also in great shape and looks really good too. But and she's been your client for like seven years. Yeah, she's been with me for like seven years. I've had to tell, I have this conversation over, but she has this number in her head of oh, when she weighs this certain amount, that's when she's felt the best, looked the best in her life.

Starting point is 01:34:02 And I've constantly reminded her you've been training with me now for such a long time that we've built muscles. So that weight doesn't matter to me anymore, even though it matters to you. And where she's frustrated, she's like, I'm in a diet, I'm doing, I'm following the program, doing the thing you tell me, and the scale is the same for like two weeks.

Starting point is 01:34:18 And again, I say, I don't carry. I know you care because you wanna see that and you feel like because you're gonna reduce calories and you're doing all this movement that you should be seeing this movement on the scale. But what I told her is like, listen, if you feel better and you're taking progress picks and I really think like two weeks is the most like it's unfair to even say every week to week when you're at the place where you're at where you're already in that shape.

Starting point is 01:34:40 Good a shape is I would say every two weeks, if you look back at what you looked like two weeks ago and you look better today based off exactly what you're doing right now, I would say stay the course. And I think your body is changing at just the right speed. Now I'll add a little bit more to this. Also what I have, I explain to her all the time too, is that when you guys get to, you're in good shape, okay? I can tell you're in good shape, the numbers you're giving me, you're in good shape.

Starting point is 01:35:04 You really are. But as you wanna get to a crazier and crazier level of leanness and definition, the more detailed we tend to have to be on the tracking portion. And so it can matter, but to me, I think the advice is you're doing good actually. So I think you're doing good by however you're tracking right now and just fine because

Starting point is 01:35:28 it sounds like all the other markers are heading the right direction. I would just say be patient. But if you desire a new level that you've never seen your body go to and you've never taken it to tracking to that level and being consistent with it. Well, then that would be my advice, would be to be like, hey, let's, let's step up the tracking. If I was coaching you, I would want even more detailed information. I'd say, okay, well, then let's, just like I did to her, I said, okay, if you really want more, I'm going to, we're going to drop your calories, 250 more calories. I want you to get an extra 2000 steps every day.

Starting point is 01:36:02 So my exact advice to her, exactly where you're at, very, very similar, everything that we're talking about. And she still wanted to see more and says, okay, well, then we're just, it's math. You've been tracking. So reduce your calories by 250, increase your steps, walking 2,000 more steps a day on what your average has been right now. Report back to me.

Starting point is 01:36:19 And so now she's seen the scale go down three pounds. She's at the weight she wants. And so everybody's happy right now. So that's also an option for you right now is if you are being consistent with your tracking and you want to go down that bad, then go ahead. Yeah, I'm gonna give you different advice specifically is I'm gonna tell you Kimberly,

Starting point is 01:36:38 add 10 grams of fat to your diet, move to phase one of split for the next two weeks. And I bet you'll get better change from that switch right there. You've been at 16 year calories, you've been cutting for a little while, you feel good. I bet if you added a little bit of facts, I'm looking at your fat and take 44 grams, okay, I think you could have a little more fat in your diet,

Starting point is 01:36:56 especially young female, like yourself, very important hormones, very important for nerve function, skin, hair, all that stuff. I bet if you bumped your fat a little bit, like 90 calories worth, or like 10 grams, and went to phase one, switch phases for the next two weeks, you're not gonna see huge changes in two weeks no matter what you do.

Starting point is 01:37:14 But I bet what'll happen is that two weeks is you'll just feel, you'll look a little sharper because you'll get a little more fullness to your muscles, they'll get a little bit, you'll get strength gains, and then you'll go into your vacation feeling really good. And you might even, you'll probably get a little boost in metabolism. Don't miss your protein.

Starting point is 01:37:28 No, keep that to say, man. Make sure you hit your protein and take, because one of the more common things with my female clients is that if you're inconsistent with a macro and protein is the macro, you're in consent, that's the one that will be the most detrimental to building muscle or looking leaner or whatever the word,

Starting point is 01:37:43 which is, you know eating 160 grams of protein. Well, yeah, but she also referenced that she's, that could be up or down and how much does that matter. That one matters the most when it comes to aesthetics, right? Making sure that you have the look you want is hit that protein intake. Okay, because I am missing that. Like it is 160 and I'm usually only getting to like 120 every day.

Starting point is 01:38:02 Oh, yeah. Well, then when then I get it. So here's how much change what I said. Add meat, because that's what, so Sal's telling you to get a little bit of fat, go get it from meat then. So target your, and your fat will naturally come out. Yeah, I hate your protein intake.

Starting point is 01:38:14 That's it. Get that 160 every day and go phase one of split or anabolic or, you know, let's see, aesthetic, a phase one of any one of those programs, and bump your protein, and take your scale and take the batteries out, or put it in the closet, stop weighing yourself, it's totally messing with your head, and then wait for the compliments from your future husband, and watch what happens. I can only hope one day that will be the case.

Starting point is 01:38:41 I did have one more question. What would you, what program would you suggest after we, I finished split? So you're doing split now. What would you do before that? Yeah, I was going to ask. We had strong and then we did power lift before that. Oh, those are all great performance. No, symmetry. For symmetry. Yeah, performance or symmetry. Which one do you want to do? Performance or symmetry? I'm going to throw one at you. Well, I'm not sure because we're relating between anabolic or symmetry because we have, we have them all literally. So we're deciding which one's better.

Starting point is 01:39:10 Symmetry will be more beneficial based off of what you've been currently doing. And then anabolic. So I like the anabolic direction but I also think that- Well they did power lift, they did power lift. Right, right. I think symmetry or performance will do your body good right now

Starting point is 01:39:24 and then go to anabolic. and then how can I like continue my education on the macrocoding because I think that's where I struggle the most with it like are there any like books or good references that you would point me in lane Norton has a good book I forget the title of it but you I mean you'll know it when you see it I can't think of the title right now. It's about reverse dieting. Yeah, his reverse dieting book is good. So Lane's got a good resource around that.

Starting point is 01:39:51 But a lot of that, by the way, too, and even our calculator online, don't get hung up on what these generic calculator say for your body. What's more important, honestly, even though we provide that for people, if you were my client, I actually wouldn't even use that tool. The way I would figure out where I want your macros is I would actually have you just eat, how you always eat and just track for me, report to me after a week or two of consistently doing that. And then I would dial it in from there, because that will be more specific to you. And I would dial it in in the direction of the goal. If you say, hey, let's, if we, you and I agree,

Starting point is 01:40:29 we've been low calorie for a while. Let's try and reverse diet and build some muscle. I would increase calories, make sure protein intake is, but keep you just a close to where you were currently at, where your maintenance was, that you reported to me, just a tiny surplus. If the opposite goal was true, you say, I wanna lean out right now, that's the primary goal.

Starting point is 01:40:47 I would have you track again for the two weeks, see where you're at, and then I would potentially reduce calories a little bit. So to me, that's a way more accurate way than getting hung up too much on what a calculator tells you, because inevitably you wanna find out what your specific number is. Yeah, so to recap, hit your protein intake and follow map symmetry leading into vacation

Starting point is 01:41:10 or afterwards or phase one of split and then go symmetry afterwards, that would be fine too. Lane has two books that would fit here, reverse dieting guide and then the complete contest prep guide, even if you're not competing, the idea of learning to track macros at that level is sounds like that would be appealing to you. And have a great vacation. Yeah. Where are you guys going? Oh, we're going to Hawaii, so Wahoo and Maui.

Starting point is 01:41:34 Oh, whoa. You're going to be there. What day you leave there? We're going to 12th to the 25th. Oh, wow. We're going to be there at the same time. I'll be there. I'm there. The third... Oh, no. You're just going to miss me. I'm there. The third to the 11th Oh wow, we're going to be there at the same time. I'll be there. I'm there. The third. Oh no, you're just going to miss me. I'm there.

Starting point is 01:41:48 The third, third to the 11th, I think. Yeah, look for the purple speedo. I'll be looking for sure. All right. All right. Thank you. Thanks for calling in. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 01:41:58 I really appreciate it. You got it. Yeah, it's the overthinking thing, doesn't it? That's a boy. That's a Doug just confirmed. That, that conversation is on this episode. Oh, that'll be great for her. It's literally, like, she is like literally saying the same stuff that my client is,

Starting point is 01:42:12 which is pretty good. How many times have you guys heard that? Well, you know, I look better, I feel better, my clothes fit better. There's still no resolve. But the scale says something. Well, it's such a room to wait. The part of why I keep one client

Starting point is 01:42:27 and have remained training one client through this entire process of mind pump is because it blows my mind that somebody who could be that close to me have heard me say this a hundred times still needs to hear the message. It's such a reminder to us when we communicate things on this podcast

Starting point is 01:42:42 that it doesn't matter that we've said it already nine times. We've got to say a 10 because it's like people struggle with that so much. I remember I had a client. I had a client once who took a week off because they got a really bad stomach flu. And they came back and were like, you know what the good news is,

Starting point is 01:42:57 I lost eight pounds. I was like, oh, well, how obsessed are we with the scale? That's good news, you know, in that case. Our next caller is Nathan from Texas. Nathan, what's happening? How can we help you? Hey, what's going on? Bell's how you doing?

Starting point is 01:43:12 Good, man. Man, I just want to just appreciate everything I'll do first off, man. I've actually been on here before. I asked a different question, but I have a huge opportunity in front of me right now, and I feel like I need some real expertise, some people that have been through the exact same type of deal, and where I want to be at, right? So, I'll just jump off and say, man, I had an interview with the VP of, I won't say the name of the chain, but it just a really big chain, like one of the biggest in the world, to be a manager, and he wants me to kind of move up into managing trainers and clubs, and to be like assistant personal training director, and move up to the director of personal training.

Starting point is 01:43:59 So my question has to do with with the qualities, disciplines, the things that I would personally need to develop to be the very best person for that position, something that I could do on my own, maybe not even showing up to the club stuff, maybe stuff that I could do for myself, and that could contribute to me, having the best trainers,

Starting point is 01:44:23 making sure that they're working the best down to organization, just pumping out the best kind of people for that position under me, that we can make the most money, help the most people. You know what I mean? And y'all know what I'm saying, but as far as me explaining it,

Starting point is 01:44:42 that's really what I'm looking to get at. Yeah, so warn me before we started this to not let this be an hour-long answer. Yeah, yeah, because I could talk to you for an hour about this. I'm going to speak directly on the position you're currently in right now or that you would have as an assistant director. The one thing I want to caution you about in that position is, you know, guys get, I would promote a guy to that position and they would assist it. Initially, they get this assistant or manager title and then they all said, want to start telling all the other traders what to do.

Starting point is 01:45:18 That's, that'll be a huge mistake. So rule number one for me, when I'm in in that when I was in that position is I'm actually gonna I'm gonna say less do more And I want to and that includes my my learning so educating myself and then my performance as far as The hours I work and the deals I close So it's lead from the front and that and that because you're gonna have a real hard time Trying to tell everybody else what to do if they don't respect you in those three categories.

Starting point is 01:45:48 If you're not, and it doesn't mean you gotta be the smartest guy, I wasn't the smartest guy, but pursuing growth in that area, right? Pursuing education, outworkin' everybody. I'm the first guy in, last guy out type of deal. And then I'm working on my sales ability to close, right? So I'm producing as much or more revenue than anybody else in that club.

Starting point is 01:46:08 Those three areas right there should keep you pretty damn busy for a long time. If you reach that and you're ready, then we can get into things that you can do with your staff. And I've got a whole host of things that we could talk all day and you can hit me offline and I will be willing to do that for you. But you better come with those three first.

Starting point is 01:46:28 If I told you that and you don't tell me you're enrolled in a new national certification or you're reading a book at this time, if you tell me you're fourth guy in hours and you're the fifth guy in ranking and revenue, then I'm going to tell you go back to the drawing board and come back to me when you're knocking those three things out first. Then we can talk about leading other people and how to teach other people. Yeah, I don't really have a ton to add to that except if you're looking for resources, I would focus on books and resources that work on two different areas, sales and relationship building and they're very, very closely connected. So sales because that's going to affect your ability to communicate and you need to be

Starting point is 01:47:10 able to communicate effectively, not just to sell, but also to communicate to your staff and your team, this kind of greater purpose. You know, when you work in gym, gyms are very demanding environments. A gym business is very demanding. It's like you're there all day, it's a lot of energy. You're always on stage when you're out there. You're not in an office where nobody can see you and you can let your shoulder slump and act like whatever.

Starting point is 01:47:35 Like you're out in the gym floor, you're out in the gym, you're on, like people are watching you. So it's a very exhausting. So if you don't really have a deep passion for it, it's almost impossible to do for a long period of time. So learn how to communicate well, so sales. And then relationship building because the gym business is not about the equipment, it's not about the locations,

Starting point is 01:47:56 it's not about how great your gym looks and all that stuff. Although a lot of people think that's what it is. It's not successful gyms, it's all about the culture and the relationships that are built in the gym. And I'm not talking about the relationship with your members. That's part of it. But it's the relationship with the staff. If you have, if the culture, the culture that the staff has and the, in the, in the teamwork, the camaraderie, the relationships that the team has is what ends up flowing out to the members. Okay. So it goes, it's like an inverted triangle.

Starting point is 01:48:27 You know, they always say customers always, right? Staff is number one. Then the members that naturally happens. If the team feels like they're behind the purpose, we're working together. It's a greater thing. We're all doing this. This is awesome. We're all growing together.

Starting point is 01:48:41 We're checking our egos at the door. The members are, the culture's there. You don't have to worry about the members. It's going to happen. If you focus just on the members, forget the team. It's not going to, it's not going to happen. So those are two areas. If you want to like grow, I'd go sales and relationship building. And I really don't care what book you read on either one of those.

Starting point is 01:48:58 I got you probably get something. I got good books for that. John C John C Maxwell developing the leader within you. John C. Maxwell developing the leaders around you and then one minute manager. Those three books are... Good to great was good too. That's great.

Starting point is 01:49:15 That's a great read. Those three books were paramount to my success in regards to the stuff that you're concerned about right now and where you're at. But I can't stress enough, speed of the leader first here, in that industry, the specific chain you're going into is very driven by sales and revenue and production. And it's really tough to get a lot of respect from your peers, if you're going to lead them and teach them how to do that better, if you don't first do it yourself.

Starting point is 01:49:44 So I can't stress that enough that put your head down and be that guy first and then the other leadership stuff will come. Cool. Yeah, that's awesome. All right, man. I know, man. We're good. Tell your VP, hi, huh?

Starting point is 01:49:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I ask you one more quick question? Sure. Hey, okay, so look, I'm actually a trainer and a manager at the current club. I'm at, it's actually super slow. It's a smaller gym. But what's, I'm the only trainer and I'm the only manager.

Starting point is 01:50:14 So I pretty much is running the club. What would be something I could do right now like to like kind of boost, I don't know, maybe like sales or morale or something. I just, I feel like it's so slow. I'm not in the- Nathan, I got you, okay. One of the first things that I ask

Starting point is 01:50:31 when we go speak to trainers about sales, which I have a feeling if I ask you this, you won't be able to give me the number. Can you tell me what your show percentage is, your close percentage and the average dollar amount that you sell? Can you tell me that? Oh, man. It's not my close percentage right now is like 30% The show percentage is roughly the same

Starting point is 01:50:57 Only because I see it on the page. I pull it up in the system, but The dollar amount is usually, it's like a one year plan. So like it's generally like three grand or something like that. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's close. So then you revert, if you actually have that math, you reverse engineer your goal. So you set a goal this month on a dollar amount you wanna make.

Starting point is 01:51:20 So stretch yourself, don't get crazy. If you've never written more than say five grand in personal training, don't try crazy. If you've never written more than, say, five grand in personal training, don't try and hit 10 grand the first month. If you're top number before, let's say just for hypothetical reasons, is five grand. Hey, let's try and stretch you to six or seven grand this month. Well, if you know what your average sale is,

Starting point is 01:51:38 you know what your percentage of show is, then you actually know how many people you need to book to get in front of you. And so then you break it down day by day like, okay, if I need to hit $7,000 and I'm 30% of the people close, 30% of the people show up and I'm making these numbers up because I don't have a calculator in front of me. That means I need to book three appointments every single day. I come in the gym for a total of 90 for the month. So 90 is the goal for the whole month and don't focus so much on the clothes, on the dollar amount, and the purpose focus on, I just got to get that many people in front of

Starting point is 01:52:11 me, and then the numbers will, the numbers will follow. And this is exactly what, this is the stuff I would get into with you when it comes to teaching your staff later on after you develop, but you got to first learn to do this yourself, like how to set a dollar amount and how to go after that and how to measure it. And then, at the end of the month, we can go back and we can look at your areas, like for example, you say 30% show, that's a really bad show percentage for me.

Starting point is 01:52:33 So I'd say, what are we doing wrong that is not convincing? And I'm assuming when you say show percentage, are we talking about walk into the gym, or are we talking about showing up to a free fit to see you? Like a free appointment to see you like a free appointment to see you? A free a free like a consultation. Yeah, really free. Right. So it's a It is it is and but but look at it this way. It's a it's a great area that we can work on and we can improve on your skills And so that's where if I was coaching you we would dive into that like what is that conversation that you're saying to somebody that you can't convince, you know, 90% of,

Starting point is 01:53:07 9 out of 10 people to come see you for free. What am I, what am I saying? And we would break that down and we would, you and I would work on that communication and that conversation. And maybe what it is is you're not reporting good enough, fast enough. And so I would start you with like,

Starting point is 01:53:22 okay, just go introduce yourself to somebody on the floor. Don't try and get the free appointment yet. Just go learn something about them and then come back the second time and then maybe the second time after you've built a little rapport, then try and get them to come in for free. Yeah, you could also be that you book the free workout and then you don't talk to them again until they show up. So sometimes it could be as easy as like calling them twice, you know, some touch points before the show. Honestly, I'd walk into a gym, I'd look at those numbers,

Starting point is 01:53:50 and the first thing I would do, which was really easy, was just close more, because everything else stayed the same. All I had to do was do a little better presentation, move that up 10, 15%, and you see a significant impact. But that's all you got to do is you got to turn the knobs a little bit. This is the type of stuff that we talk about in the NCI coaching by the way too. I'm actually following every training they do, I just have an investment.

Starting point is 01:54:12 Well, I mean, there's one where you get to listen to Justin Doug, like once a week, we get on an hour call and it's very private. There's only normally about 15, 20 other coaches, trainers, managers on there. It's a hundred bucks a month, bro. It's a hundred bucks a month. And you have access to the four of us and including Jason. And this is the type of stuff that people the questions they put and then we can go deeper. Yeah. Because this is not like a little 15, 20, I mean, I could go all day on

Starting point is 01:54:37 this question and and really dive into to helping you. Yeah. So consider that. Well, good luck. What's that the coaching master? Or which one is that? That's the, Doug, do you know the link right now? I'm looking for it right now, but I can't see it. Well, when we edit this, we'll put it up on there. If Doug doesn't get it right now, I believe it's NCI or mine pump NCI,

Starting point is 01:55:00 I should know this. It might be mine pump NCI. I'm looking at NCI mine pump, it's not that one. Yeah, it might be mine pump NCI. It'll be MindPump NCI. I'm looking at NCI MindPump, it's not that one. Yeah, it might be MindPump NCI. It'll be on this episode when we put it up and I'll make sure that Doug sends it over to you or whoever you contact again on the episode sends you the link so you can get yourself to it. Hey, so I'm running a performance right now.

Starting point is 01:55:18 Can I add ads into it? Because I feel like I don't get enough ad work. Yeah, that's fine. You're a trainer, right? Yeah. All right. There you go. Yeah, NC's fine. You're a trainer, right? There you go. Yeah, NCI mind pump.com NCI mind pump.com and yes, you can add a little abs if you're a trainer I don't hit my core like I should yeah, I love it. That's a great program, man. I appreciate y'all. I got you my friend

Starting point is 01:55:42 Thank you, thank you. Thanks buddy. I'm going bro. You too take it easy What do you think about his beer Justin? I'm to be watching that. Yeah, it's, I like it. That's it. It's a hard, that's a hard, that's good really long. Well, there's so much, dude, in the running gyms, there's so much there. But I think you asked some of the right questions. But honestly, it's what you said at the out at the out is 100% it. If you just do that, that's like 90%. Like the rest is important.

Starting point is 01:56:10 It goes more specific and really like paying attention to those metrics, writing it out. And like what you can like turn that knob up just slightly to bring more yield. Well, I really wanted to just the first thing I came out with on him was like, that's the, that's the biggest mistake I see with people making that position. Is they, if you don't do that, it's a real hard thing. They get promoted. For whatever reason, they're a good trainer, they have an opportunity and some of that. Now in the boss.

Starting point is 01:56:34 Now, what are the things I tell everybody else with to do? It's like, whoa, whoa, pump your brakes. Huge mistake. Yeah, like you got to go out there and. You got to earn it. Yes. And that was like the move. Every time I got a new staff or I was transferred

Starting point is 01:56:46 to a new club, I actually said very little to my staff. It was, I kind of sat back, kind of observed, watch, and actually all I did was I went to work. It was like, let me show these guys and girls like what time it is. In these 30 days, I'm in a brand new club, so I'm at a disadvantage, right? If you're trying to build a business in a club,

Starting point is 01:57:04 you've never been in it. And they obviously all know they're an advantage. I'm at a disadvantage, right? If you're trying to build a business in a club, you've never been in it. And they obviously all know they're at an advantage. I'm at a disadvantage. But yet watch me out, produce everybody here. Then you immediately have everybody's attention. Immediately. Why didn't bring it up? Because it was just going to go on to another hour conversation. But there's another like great thing that you did while I was, you know, training underneath. You there was just empowering the staff and And having them lead classes, having them teach the other trainers and really involving them in the mix in terms of it not being this sort of authoritarian type of a management situation. Yeah, that makes a big difference.

Starting point is 01:57:39 Look, if you love Mind Pump, you will absolutely love Mind Pump Free.com. This is where we have all of our free guides. We made a bunch of guides. They're free to help people with their health and fitness goals. Again, mind pump free.com. You can also find us on social media. So Justin is on Instagram at mind pump.

Starting point is 01:57:53 Justin, Adam is on Instagram at mind pump. Adam, you can find me on Twitter at mind pump. Thank you for listening to mind pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPumpMedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes maps and a ballad, maps performance, and maps aesthetic.

Starting point is 01:58:17 Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money bag guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family.

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1894: Ways to Improve the Mind-Muscle Connection, How to Know if You Are Overtraining, What to Do When Cutting Calories Doesn’t Result in Weight Loss & More (Listener Live Coaching)

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