Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1902: From Addict to Self-Made Millionaire With Michael Chernow

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

From Addict to Self-Made Millionaire With Michael Churnow How from a young age he was trying to get out of his house. (3:34) Being sexually assaulted at 8 years old. (11:08) Why he felt he needed to have a legitimate job with his ever-growing side hustle. (16:10) His favorite drug to sell and why? (22:05) His only run-in with the cops. (26:33) The scary experience of getting robbed. (32:08) That one time he faked his death. (39:01) His connection to the universe. (44:30) Losing his father and making amends. (46:55) The beginning of the end of the dark days and the beginning of the new days. (56:30) The Muay Thai angels. (1:01:48) The point where things start happening for him. (1:08:43) Why his happiness is FAR more important than cash in the bank and capital. (1:28:59) His next venture, partner, and buyout. (1:35:45) The origins of Kreatures of Habit. (1:46:33) Taking his love of oatmeal and running with it! (1:53:25) How fitness & health transformed him. (2:01:01) The priority of profitability. (2:08:40) You never know the catalyst of change. (2:10:30) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit Kreatures of Habit the PrOATagonist for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Code MP25 at checkout** Visit SleepMe for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! September Promotion: Skinny Guy Bundle (MAPS ANABOLIC // MAPS AESTHETIC // NO B.S. 6-PACK FORMULA // INTUITIVE NUTRITION GUIDE // OCCLUSION TRAINING GUIDE.) HALF OFF!! Also, the Fit Mom Bundle (MAPS ANYWHERE // MAPS ANABOLIC // MAPS HIIT // and INTUITIVE NUTRITION GUIDE.) HALF OFF!! **Code SEPT50 at checkout** Frank The Meatball Shop Seamore's | Sustainable Seafood Railroad CrossFit Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Michael Churnow (@michaelchernow) Instagram Daniel Holzman (@chefholzman) Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump, right? Today's episode is a special one. Actually, one of our favorite interviews we've done ever, and I don't say that lightly, we interviewed Michael Chernow. He's the founder of Creatures of Habit. He's

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SEPT50 for the 50% off discount. All right, here comes the show. I've listed some of your interviews and conversations and I actually, I mean, I kind of started a piece together that we probably had a little similar history and I'm like, I really want to get into some of that stuff because I don't hear you talk about it very much. Or at least I haven't heard you talking

on anyone's podcast. I you briefly say it and then you kind of move on from it. So. Well, it creatures a habit. I mean, the story is really, it's based around my transition from addicted to like, I mean, I can say it. I feel like I'm living like a my wildest dreams life, you know? I mean, I can say it. I feel like I'm living like a, my wildest dreams life, you know? I mean, I'm not sitting on a billion dollars, but I am definitely like I wake up 90% of

the time fucking stoked, you know? And like, that was just not the case for years. Before we got on, we were talking about some of both of our past and so with that now when you were hustling were Were you Addicted or doing drugs at the same time or did that come later or did even start before you got it got into selling Oh, I mean, you know, I Growing up in New York City I I mean, I should back up a little bit. My household was pretty tough.

My dad was a really, really rough dude. Military, yeah. No, my grandfather was military. My father was supposed to be military, but he was a juvenile diabetic. So because of that, I honestly think that that just developed some serious animosity and resentment in him and he just ultimately manifested an anger. And so he couldn't be, you know, be a military, he couldn't be in the military.

He was also like a phenomenal baseball player, but the diabetes kept him from taking it, taking it forward. And so he was just an angry dude. He was an angry dude. We lived in a really small apartment on... Does that mean like, because I've heard you mentioned this before, but I haven't heard you go into detail, like, is that he's loud and yelling all the time, he's controlling, was he physically violent, was he verbally abusive? Oh, he was, he was all the above. I mean, you know, when I was, the physical stuff didn't really start to happen until I was about 10, 11 years old.

And then when I was 12 years old, that's when I became like a full-fledged fight between the two of us. Because I was just not afraid of him anymore. Yeah. Was he that way with your mom too, or was it just you? He was, he didn't like he didn't like strike my mom Yeah, but he would shaker and throw her you know, and I witnessed that a lot

Yeah a number of times and very similar my sister actually was spared like he did not Touch her. I mean he he would yell and and and and you know yell at her But he never never touched me. Are you the oldest? I'm the youngest. Oh, he's the youngest. Yeah. Oh. Anyway, I was, I was, oh, from a young age, from as early as I can remember,

I was always trying to get out of my house. I always wanted out. I didn't want to be there. I wasn't comfortable there. I didn't feel safe there. I shared a bedroom with my sister. So, you know, and my sister and I had a, like, you know, she was, we were close

in age, 15 months apart. So it wasn't like, you know, like having a younger brother, as I think as an older sister, that's so close in age, you're just kind of like, you know, I got my friends course, you know. So, you know, it was, it was just tough for me. It was tough for me growing up in that house, and I wanted out as early as I could, so I slept at friend's house as constantly. My mother and I had a great relationship, and my mom is a super loving person,

but she was also abused, and she made the abnormal normal, you know? She was exposed to this crazy dude, who today I've completely forgiven. I don't blame my father for any of the shit that I did. I really don't. I feel like I was predisposed to do the things that I did as I was coming up in my life.

But anyway, so because of that I was out. I was always out. I was always like trying to stay at friends houses and do you ever try to run away? Oh, I was like, I like lived in the run away letter. I was like, I just like wrote, I'm running away all the time. Yeah, me too. I mean, I was, my parents called the cops on me

and arrested me for running away. And that was when I learned that I had no rights until I turned 18 years old. Well, the crazy thing for me was that it got pretty ugly, you know, I, and I, once I was like 12 years old, I was probably not a good. I mean, I'm not probably. I was a terrible child. I was a terrible child.

I was smoking cigarettes. I was out late. You know, they had no control over me. And that's when things got really bad in my house. And child services got involved because the cops would show up. And so now child services involved. My parents didn't really have a lot of money. Child services said that, you know, a male and a female teen are not able to actually

share a bedroom. Like, they're not supposed to share a bedroom. So, you know, the child's services came, they said, they can't sleep in the same bedroom. So, I had to tell them that I was sleeping on the couch in the living room, which wasn't true, because I never slept at home. And then, it got to a point where I started selling drugs. I was doing drugs.

My parents would find drugs. I would come home. This is at 13, how old are you? Fort, yeah, they probably, when they started finding drugs, drugs. My parents would find drugs. I would come home. This is at 13, how old are you? Yeah, they probably, when they started finding drugs and knew I was selling drugs, it was like 14. You started selling that early, huh? Oh, yeah.

Wow. And to my freshman year of high school. And then one day, my father and I got into a really, really bad one, physical and cop showed up, and child services came, and they told my parents that they were gonna put me in foster care. If my mother didn't get me out of this situation, they had no choice but to put me in foster care. And I was like, there's no way. There's no way.

Like, I already live on my own. You're not taking me to foster care. So I told my mother that night I was like, look, I'm out. You know, like you're gonna have to find me. But I'm not leaving, I'm done. I'm like, there's no way. Hey, I can't live with that guy anymore. Be he clearly does not love me.

You know, which I now know he did. He just didn't know how to, he just, he really did not know how to be a father. And some people just don't, I think, you know. Well, especially if you come from something like that right and I might get a while there was like a hard core Naval officer hard core military guy Not easy on my dad, but um anyway, I moved out

I moved into alumni hall which was like an NYU dorm. I was shacking up with an NYU freshman. And I lived in the dorm for a while, and then I promised my mom that I would go to outpatient rehab. She was like, that's the deal. I want you to try to figure your shit out. You're 15, 16 years old. This is insane. But it wasn't insane for New York City kids. It just wasn't, you know, like I was I was working in restaurants

I was working in nightclubs at 16 years old. I was working at in like the hottest like nightclub in New York City as a barback um, and then you know, but I just learned I like I learned and I think Developed the skill set that I have today, which is ultimately engaging with human beings and developing relationships. And do you remember like specific scenarios that happened to you, like in those young years when that started to kind of come together for you, like how important relationship building was and all that stuff? Well, I think it was something that I needed to develop even younger because I wanted my friends parents to like me. I wanted my friends parents to like me so that they would allow me to stay over.

Stay over. I remember it very clearly young being like, I have to make them think I'm a good kid. So that they can take me away with them on the weekends to their weekend house, you know. And so that was like sort of the beginning of it for me. And I was good at it, you know, I was good at it. You know, I also was unfortunately like there was sexual abuse by a sports coach while I was trying to find love from a man, you know, like a fatherly figure at a young age.

This is on you on me. What age are you? Eight. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Eight, nine, eight, eight, nine, ten. No. I didn't know what was happening.

I was going to say, when did that come together that was even happening? A lot of times when it's shit like that happens that young. I had no idea. Honestly, I knew that this guy was awesome. Treated me like a son. Took me fishing all the time with other kids. I wasn't alone. But I also knew that like he would put me in the shower and like put shampoo on my head and like wipe my body down. You know. And there was never like rape or anything like that, but it was like weird, creepy shit like that. Yeah, yeah.

And but I just didn't think of it. Yeah, and I said, you know how shitty that is, especially from a boy who isn't getting the right love from his dad, like at that age, you're probably not even connecting the dots that that's not normal. You're just like, oh, finally. A father figure.

Yeah, father figure who loves me. This is what it looks like. And he was also an're just like, oh, finally. A father figure. Yeah, father figure who loves me. This is what it looks like. And he was also an auxiliary cop, like the guy, you know. And so, and for me, you know, I was ashamed of this for a long time. I didn't know, I figured it out when I was like 16. I was like, oh my God. Whole, I was like, that actually happened to me.

And I didn't talk about it. I used to get high and plan this dudes, like I was gonna like take them out. You know, like that was like the way I would go. That's where my head would go because I was like this dude, how dare somebody do that to such a young kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, did that take a couple years for you to process to get to that space of like oh man This makes me really angry looking back. I mean, I think when I found out it was sort of like I was I was a complete

Renegade in my life Somehow I made it to high school and I actually graduated on time with an 80 80 80 GPA but Yeah, I think I was at it, it evoked an enormous amount of anger, you know. But now I'm totally cool that I'm like, I've forgiven the guy. I mean, I don't, he's, I think he's dead. I mean, I know he got caught with a bunch of child pornography,

I actually went to jail. Is that what made it obvious or, I mean, because obviously even at, I don't know, even at 16 with your kind of background, I don't even know if I even piece together still at that point that like what had happened to you, was it like really later when you're like, oh, for sure. No, I mean, I think at that age, I kind of like,

I kind of, you know, it was, I kind of like looked at it as an opportunity for me to feel loved. But then I was like, but wait a second, like there were things, like I would sleep at this guy's house. You know, like we would sleep in the same bed together. This is weird. It was weird. But I can honestly say, man, that like I really loved the guy.

Like I did. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't like, and so I think speaking about it in this platform, on this platform, in this format, actually is really awesome to be able to do because I know it's apparently one in four men are sexually molested at some point in their life, which is really, is it really high?

Is it really high? Oh yeah. You know, men are not high, is it rather high? Oh yeah. You know, men are more often, when you include prison, men are more often sexually assaulted. That's a fact, let's statistic a lot of people don't realize. Is that, now is that what skews that number?

Cause yeah, okay. So you throw prison in there. You know, fuck, well that's like crazy, right? There's a lot of people in, a lot of men in prison, you know. Yep, yep, yep. Why didn't know that? Yeah, so you, that happened, you know, and again, like I said in the beginning, conversation, like, I don't regret any of it.

I think everything that's happened, I'm grateful for because it's made me who I am today, you know, and be able to actually talk about the experience. And potentially, somebody listening can feel a little bit of relief. And so, I moved out, I was living like a lunatic. Well, you're living in the dorms right now. We're living in the dorms. 14, 15-age. We're slinging in hustling to probably make your cash to pay for your food and do shit. And working and always had a legit job though. Like from 12 years old, I got my first job in a restaurant. I worked in a restaurant from 12 until 28

when I opened my first restaurant. Okay, so why do a legitimate job when you're already making money on the side, you know, selling drugs or whatever? I think the, I honestly don't think that I believed what I was doing on the side was worthy.

Oh, I see. You know, like I think I felt like I needed to have a legitimate job. A, because I really loved it. Actually, like I really loved it. I love it. You're being in the restaurants at night and the night clubs. Like, being the youngest kid always You know, I just there was something was it was it was thrilling to me

I feel like I'm an adrenaline junkie like I'd loved that stuff What's your what's your relationship with money like at this point? I mean because for kid that age and you're doing these jobs and your hustle on the side You probably had an abundance of money in comparison to probably your peers and stuff like that I did what are you doing with are peers and stuff like that. I did. What are you doing with, are you blowing it like crazy? I know you're a fashion guy. So you're like buying hell of fucking expensive stuff.

I mean, I had, at that time, you know, North Face was like a big thing in New York City. So I had like 20 North Face Jack is having every pair of sneakers. You could possibly imagine. Of course. You know, I mean, I, I, I really, I think that the money got in my in my late teens, 18, 19, 20, 21, you know, I would like work late on a Friday night till like two or three in the morning. I would leave work, take a car to the airport, hop on a jet blue flight to Miami,

get down to Miami the next six o'clock in the morning or whatever it was, or get on the flight at six and get there at 8 a.m., or at 9 a.m., get a hotel and just absolutely go ham. Party, party. Oh wow. Party, I did that for a while. That was like my weekend

You know, I would like come to and I like the floor of a hotel room in Miami Wow Now when you're doing that are you rolling down there with a crew and friends and people at that? Are you doing this solo and just like meeting people down there like what do you do? I mean, I always would roll with a friend, but you know, I had a I had a squad down there too. Yeah, you know that it was just like Yeah, no at this point, cause you're hustling and stuff like that, are you doing hustle out there too? So are you actually dealing?

No, you're not dealing with your area. No, I'm just, I'm going down there to like, just fun. Yeah, just a good time. Yeah, party life and stuff. And it's so weird, cause when I think back on it now, now we'll get into where I'm at today, which is totally different.

Oh my God. I mean, it's just so bizarre to really close my eyes, stay here with you guys, and really think back on those times where I could not be more of a different human being today. Like I could, and again, like, I don't know if I'd want to hang out. Actually, I would not want to hang out with that guy at all right, and again, I don't know if I'd want to hang out, actually I would not want to hang out with that guy at all right now, even though I don't regret that guy or have any ill will towards that guy. But today, you would never catch me.

I haven't been to a nightclub in like 15 years, and I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that. No, you've just evolved, but I've just evolved and I just, I can't fathom. You know, I also towards the end of my drinking and partying days, I was angry and violent. A lot of fights. A lot of fights.

A lot of fights at the end, you know, probably the last two years. You're not a very big guy. You can try to ask kicked a lot of, how are you doing? Interestingly enough, I actually, I mean, I the last two years. You're not a very big guy. You can try to ask kicked a lot or how are you doing? Interestingly enough, I actually, I mean, I certainly took a couple of L's, but I was always, scrappy.

I was always the first guy to throw a punch. And like, and that was my thing and it got really frustrating for my friends, you know, and I, and that is one thing I do regret, because I was fun to be around most of the time. Yeah, but if somebody said something to me or somebody did something that I didn't like and I was fucked up. Yeah, I just Clock him and and and and I got 86 from every single bar South of Houston North of Delancie, East of Essex,

West of Alan Street. I mean, there was like a four block radius in the Lower East Side. Now, I'm gonna make you do a crazy leap in the poster with you. Can you connect that attribute about yourself and how bad it was on how it served you in life today? We're gonna throw the punch, first punch,

fearless. I'll tell you for sure that, well, the first thing that happened was a couple of the guys that really helped me find my way were competitive Muay Thai guys, Muay Thai kickboxers. And when I got sober, these guys dragged me off the street and threw me right into a Moittai ring. And I became obsessed with Moittai.

What age is that? 23. Okay, so we got to fill the gap here still. We're not there yet. We're at 16 flying down to Miami. Okay, so I didn't start flying down to Miami probably until I was like 19-20, 18-19-20. 16, I was still running around. At that point, I was not 19, 20, 18, 19, 20. 16, I was still running around. I was going, and at that point,

I was not just selling weed. I was selling everything. 16, 17, 18, 19. I was traveling all over the, up and down the East Coast, going to Raves and showing up with suitcases worth a shit. And it was insane. Crazy question, you probably probably never been asked,

favorite drug to sell and why. Serious. I mean, I mean, I mean, I so, I mean, this is crazy, but fuck it, whatever. Yeah, yeah, I know you haven't been asked about this, so I'm curious, so we have, so, ketamine

in those days used to come in a case of 144 boxes, a case of 144 bottles. And you'd buy a case of ketamine or cases of ketamine, and you'd basically pour it out onto plates, and you'd do like three or four bottles onto a plate, you'd put it in the oven, you'd pull it out and it crystallizes, and then you scrape it up, and you do like three or four bottles onto a plate, you put it in the oven, you pull it out and it crystallizes, and then you scrape it up and you bag it. And the amount of money that I made on ketamine, when I was like 16 and 17 at these raves, it was just insane.

How are they doing it like crack? How are they smoking it? No, you sniff it. Oh, you sniff it. Oh, so you break it up and then it turns into like a powder. So you basically throw it into the oven, it crystallizes and then you scrape it up with like a credit card, like you scratch it off the plate.

Yeah. And, you know, we would do this, you know, it was crazy. So crazy, I haven't thought about this in some time. That's why I make you go here. And that means, where do you even get that? Okay, where do you even get cut it? Yeah, because that's a medical. I mean, I lived in New York City, you know,

and I had my hands in everything. There was a guy, obviously, that's so funny. We just installed a landline in our house, and there is a picture, the landline that sits on our kitchen counter. It's got a picture of my wife, a picture of me, and a picture, the landline it sits on our kitchen counter. It's got a picture of my wife, a picture of me, and a picture of my grandmother, and my kids all day long, just pick it up

and push the button and say, call us so they're calling me. Perfect timing. If you boys only knew what I was talking about. But yeah, so there was a guy that lived on Second Street and this is like in the 90s when downtown New York City on the east side was just bad news. It was just bad news. You did not go down there for any other reason.

Unless you lived there, and if you lived there, it was pretty rough, but if you were going to the East Village Lower East Side, back in those days they called it Alphabet City, you were going there with intention. Why was it called Alphabet City? Because after First Avenue, it was Avenue A, B, C, and D. Oh, okay, yeah. And it was just bad news down there. But there was a guy on Second Street across the street from this gas station.

His name was Fantasia. And... His street name is, I got a name. Oh yeah, I'm not giving you his full name. No, of course I would never. I was in Fantasia, but you would go into his apartment and he was married to this woman who was super sweet. I mean, it's crazy thing I was a teenager doing this shit,

but you go into his apartment and his wife was a dominatrix. And so I'd walk into this and I'm going to the right to grab the, you know, to meet with Fantasia, and then I look on the left, and there is like a crucifix hung up on the wall with shackles and the whole thing. And I mean, there wasn't people hanging on the crucifix while I was there, but she wasn't dressed in this, just wild man, wild New York,

I was also in nightclubs, like the tunnel and limelight and pladium. I had my 504 thing. Was it two or three or four still things? No, no, that's good. That was before me. But tunnel limelight, I mean, me and my 14 year old friends, you know, 15, 16 year old friends, we'd show up to these night clubs

and like the drag queens would be like, kiss me on the cheek. And like, you kiss them on the cheek and they like, they're like, they're just pulled to the left, you know. I mean, I had so much fun in those days too. I'm not, it was definitely not like a, outside of the stuff at home where it was gloom and doom, like I had a- That was a good escape. Oh man, I had a blast. I really did.

Until it got ugly for me, you know, until the drinking and the using became, it wasn't fun, it wasn't what I was, it wasn't what I said, like the intention was not what I had set out for initially, which was to escape and have a good time and really just like, how did you avoid getting pinched? I mean, young kid like that, how did you have the smarts

to not, and you're messing with as many things as you're messing with, how did you not get caught up? I only had one run in. And this was right, I don't remember, it was right after my 15th birthday, I think it was right after my 15th birthday. I was on 10th Street and 3rd Avenue. I had a backpack filled with probably 52 gram bags of weed,

a scale, a bunch of empty baggies in my backpack. There's no line bag. And I was recreational. I mean, I didn't even know how we got into this crazy conversation, but fuck it. My friend was sitting on the stoop, but was at night, we were drinking forties. And I had to pee. And like an idiot, I didn't take my bag off and leave it on the stoop when I had stuff in my when I was carrying something like that I never took it off of course and so I

walk over across the street I said Al if the cops come give me a whoop and sure enough I'm pissing on a tree and these cops roll up and I'm'm like, I'm on the sidewalk, they slowly approach on the street. And I just like immediately put it in my pants and start walking down the block. And I see a van like three or four cars in front of me, like down the downtown street. So I'm walking down downtown street.

And I'm like, if I can get to that van without them coming out to stop me or call my name, I can get to the van, I can drop my bag off my back and just keep walking and maybe they won't, and I'm drunk at this point. So that's what I did. I walked, dropped my bag, they didn't call my name, they weren't like, hey kid, I keep walking and they're following like slowly.

And I'm like, are they not, do they not see me pee? I'm like, am I getting away with this shit? And then they stopped the car, put in reverse and I fucking bolt. And I get, I'm like, I run down to first avenue, cut down first avenue. I get to A Street to St. Marks,

and I realized that in my backpack is all my school shit with the fucking name on it. I'm like, it's not just the way, right? Like I got, you know, I'm like, he's like, I'm like, he's like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm And so I'm like, oh my God, you know, and I didn't live at my, I didn't live at home at this point. I was living, I was not living at home.

So I was like, you know, they're gonna either show up at my parents house, like I'm just like, I'm gonna go face the noise, fuck it. I'm fifth, I was either fifth-seater, I'm like, fuck it. So I walked back around, I walked down 10th Street, I would never have done that if I wasn't drunk by the way. I'm sure, I'm sure I would have just like dealt

with the repercussions and just been like, there's no way I'm facing these cops. I get there, bag is gone. I walked down the street and the cops were in between a car. They jumped out of, they jumped out in between the car. They threw me up against the fence and they're like, you're fucking done. You were right for you, huh?

Yeah, you are done. And, you know, they said we got everything. And I basically, I said, look man, I just turned, I don't remember, again, it was 15 or 16, I was like, I just turned 16 years old. My friends and I put all of our money together. We just got down from Dykeman and we bought all this weed for the next week to smoke together.

And the cop was like, don't fucking, don't, don't, you know, the measuring, oh shit. Scale it really good. Sure enough, that cop let me go. Oh wow, wow. Cop let me go. Took all my shit, but he let me go. What do you attribute to?

What do you think it was you coming back or you calm and collective about it? I think it should be to 1995 New York City cops just found 50 bags of weed and Oh, that's cute. You know weed and they were basically just like, probably nothing's gonna happen to this kid. Do we want to deal with this paperwork? And we just got 50, 50 bags of weed.

Like, I really do think that at that time in New York City, those were like the questions these cops would ask themselves. It's a 15 year old kid. What are they gonna do? They're gonna put them on probation, or maybe send them to send me to Juvie. But it's not like he's going and he is not like, and so they scared the living shit out of me.

They cuffed me and then they said, this is your lucky fucking day. And I was it, you know, that was the only time I really had a bad run. And now there was a guy that I used to do business with. And he was insane. He was one of the one of the bigger dealers in the city at the time.

And he has a part. He sold everything out of his apartment. And he lived across the street from a police station. Wow. Literally on 20th Street. It's so great. Across the street from the precinct. That's wild.

And, you know, I got away with, you know, I really did. I got outside of that time that I got robbed. That was the scary moment. Yeah. Let's talk about that for a second. That story, you told that off air. That's a pretty insane story. That if you, what am I telling that?

That's a, yeah. So I was 19. I was living in an apartment on a nine street between B&C. This is when I was either 18 or 19, I think I was 19 though and this neighborhood, this is Alphabet City. This neighborhood is starting to change in 1988, 1999, that's where I went when I lived there.

And I had two roommates. One of them, he and I had been doing business together for years, actually, like he was like, he lived in Jersey. He was older than me, but I was like, his New York City connect, and then he decided to move into the city, and we got a place together. And then we had this other friend of ours take the third bedroom. Now mind you, my bedroom, I'm not exaggerating was the size of this table. I mean, it was like, this was like, this was like, you feed me a one-two, yeah.

A futon, like wall to wall. Like it was ridiculous. But that was like East Village apartments, those, you know, then, probably still, now. And I lived in this little tiny bedroom, That was like East Village apartments, then, probably still. I lived in this little tiny bedroom, filled with all my shit. We weren't selling anything out of the apartment, but that was where we stored. That's where we had all of our stuff.

We made a pack with each other that we never bring anybody to the apartment, you know, especially unless it was like a girlfriend or a very close friend that we all knew, but you definitely didn't bring anybody that you were working with to the apartment. And one day, a month before this incident happened, I came into the apartment and there were like four people that I did not know and would have never invited into this apartment there. And one of my roommates, not the one that I'd been working with for years, the one that I had never worked with, but was a friend, was smoking and drinking with these dudes. and I walked into my room immediately.

I was like, I want no part of this, and I heard them saying all sorts of shit. You know, I got bop bop bop bop bop, and he wasn't even involved, but he was like, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, like just trying to be a big guy. And when they left, I was like, dude, what are you doing? Like, why would you put us in a position like that? And like, what, what, what, what, I was like, what are you smoking, dude? Yeah.

And, you know, he was like, oh, I can do what I want. Is it on my crib? I was like, what, I'm not gonna fight with him. So, a month later, I, you know, I was walking into my apartment. I was with one of my best friends from high school. Not involved in the business.

Not involved in the business. Put the key in the door, turn the key, and these guys rushed in and duct taped us, threw us in the bathtub, pissed a wip me, and then, you know, it's three guys. They kept on coming in with, you know, they were putting on North Face Jackets and they were like, you know, they were like, what, where is it? Where is it?

And they got me for like, you know, 40 grand in cash, five pounds of weed. And there were two saves bulged to the ground. And they wanted the code. And I actually did not give them the code. And I actually did not give them the code. Oh my God, serious. I didn't give them the code to save. And there was a few reasons why A,

I think it goes back to sort of like my fearless mentality that I've always had and I still have to this day. It was a Friday at three o'clock in the afternoon. So I knew these guys weren't killing anybody. I didn't think that they were going to kill me. I really didn't think that they were going to kill me. Um, and, uh, gotta take balls to take that gamble, right? You're getting pissed to whip, you're getting duct tape.

They're definitely serious. Right. They're serious. However, I felt like I knew one of them. And there were two guys that were definitely not playing games. The one guy who I know now orchestrated the whole thing was this who I thought I knew and actually I did.

Are they ski masked up or something or no? No, no mask, no nothing. Two of them had guns. One white guy, one black guy and one Puerto Rican guy. And uh, Puerto Rican dude and the black dude, Puerto Rican goes huge. Black guy was like dreaded up and small and white dude was, he like, came into the bathroom when they were duct taping me and he was like, I'm sorry, I have to do this.

And that's when I knew that like, you're the weak one. All right. I'm not these dudes are not right already apologize Yeah, I know you are not going to kill me. Yeah, they just wanted what I had so anyway That went down and how much was in the safe at the time you would have been over for me and and and my roommates You know because it wasn't we you know, oh, yeah, it would have been I would have been over for me. And my roommates, you know, because it wasn't weed, you know. Oh. Yeah. It would have been, it would have been real bad. So anyway, and the funny thing was not the funny thing,

but like in the, in the, I had the, I had the weed in the fridge and it had been there for a while. And literally the day before I called up this dude, who unfortunately is dead now. And I said, yo, I'm not there. Nobody wants a shit. It's not moving. It's outdoors It's leafy. It smells kind of moldy like I can't move it man. I can't move it. You gotta come get it And I swore to that. I was like that's it. I was like ninja did it. He did it. I was like he sent those guys And I called him up immediately and I was like, what the fuck?

And he's like, dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. And I was like, yo man, you know, and both of my roommates blamed me and, you know, you hang out with the wrong people and somebody followed you, and that. And your poor buddy who fucking is not your high school friend. Oh, and he yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean that's I'm sure a story that he'll tell forever. Um, but uh it ended up being the roommate and those guys

That were there that one day of course and That's not done on you right away though I mean, I feel like that would have been the first thing if I'm you. I'm thinking of cause I mean, I was so, you know, I was, I was drinking in party and all the time, like, I didn't even think, you know, I, I was like, it's definitely my people. Oh, definitely my people, you know, cause I, I definitely hung with a crew, you know,

that was not. Now, was this a turning point for you? Where you like, this is it? I got a, I got a stop where you're like, oh, cool. I got, I got out of that. Let's keep going. No, I mean, I still, it took me a number of years to like snap out of it.

Oh, yeah, it did, you know, I mean, I actually, so I moved to California, actually, for when I was 20 years old, I decided I was like, all right, I gotta get out of Dodge, like I gotta figure, old, I decided I was like, all right, I got to get out of Dodge. Like, I got to figure out a better way because this is not working. And I should also mention that around that same time, this is another crazy story. Oh my gosh. But I was still working in that nightclub. I was working in that nightclub called Life club called Life. From 1996 and 1997 to 1999. And I was a youngest kid there. And everybody knew that. Everybody knew that I was like this, this young kid. And there was a woman

that was a mater D of the VIP room. And she was like smoking hot. And so I did everything in my power to like hook up with her and ultimately her and I ended up hooking up. She was like 24, so I'm like 24, 25, 20, maybe 23. She had a sugar daddy that would come to the club. Big time real estate guy, big rich, older, you know, real estate dude, but like kind to the club. Big time real estate guy. Big rich, older real estate dude, but kind of tough guy. But she was coming home with me, like, two's for nights with me. I can get our seat when this is going.

Yeah, anyway, and we did that for a little while, and it didn't really work out well. I found out, and this is before, heroin did become a part of my story at the very end, but it wasn't then. And I looked down on anybody that did heroin. I was just like, heroin, I mean, that's for junkies. Anyway, I found out she was doing heroin. And when I found that out, I was like, it isn't gonna fly. I'm not doing this, I have no interest in that. And when that happened, she told her sugar daddy

that her and I had been sleeping together. Oh God. And it was summer, probably 98 or 99. And I was living in that apartment and I was working on a weekends at a club in the Hamptons bartending and I see the dude Chris and I was I mean, you know, I was a kid I was I was a kid, but I was you know, whatever I see him and he makes I he locks eye contact with me And I just saw the look of death in his eyes and you know who he he is. Oh yeah, I know, I was the drunk piece of shit

at that time in my life. And he walks up to me and he puts his arm around me. And I'm telling you like, I can't recall, I mean, there were very few moments in my life that I've ever been that scared. I thought I was gonna shit my pants. And he's wearing a backpack on. And he goes, you know, you're lucky I have kids

because if I didn't, I'd kill you myself. He takes his backpack off and he pulls out of it. This is like out of the movie's kind of kind of story. He pulls out a stack of cash and he shows it to me and he goes, this is the money I'm paying to have you killed. Wow. And I was like, literally, it was like, I was terrified. I was terrified. And I didn't think to myself that like, how could this, you know, how can this guy tell me that he's going to do this, you know what I mean? But that actually happened.

And the craziest part of this story is her ex boyfriend before Chris, who's a psychopath, who's also unfortunately dead now, is a very good friend of mine. Chris did not know that this guy was a very good friend. So Chris calls up this dude and says, Hey, I'm going to give you this money to beat this dude to within. Oh, wow.

To beat this dude to within. No way. He calls me and he goes, we got to fake your death. And I want this money, but I'm not going to kill you, bro. And so I swear God is my witness, man. We brought a couple of thugs to that apartment on 9th Street. Underneath the staircase, got went to Abracadabra, this Halloween store, got all this faith in it.

I swear to God, I still have the photos, man. Shut up. I still have the photos, but not fake the death. Like basically said, like beat the shit out of me. And gave him to Chris. And, oh, shit, I said his name, whatever. But yeah, man, the stories are just, I mean, I'm very, very slowly chipping away at a book.

You have to. Because the stories are just incredible. You know what's interesting? Two times now, or three times now, you've talked about events where it seems like by the grace of God you got out on scape, you got cops that you off, you went in your apartment, had got pissed of what didn't get killed, and then this guy tried to get you beat almost a death, you could have accidentally gotten killed. And it worked out where you faked it. You ever look back and go, what, that's really crazy.

Well, I will say that I come from outside of my dad, there was love in my family. My grandmother, who's this woman here, who's my dad's mom, was probably the most impactful person in my life, because she was an absolutely wonderful spiritual being. And from my kids, my sister and I were like little, little kids. She was a practicing Buddhist. And she used to, my sister and I used to run around her apartment in Queens, singing

Namyam Ho, Rangang Kyo. And she was just like this hardcore Buddhist. And she meditated for four hours a day. And she was just the most serene. She was her profession when she was a crystal healer. She had a crystal shop in Queens. My step-grandfather was an artist. He used to make fake plants.

And so there was a part of that, like my life where I had this ability to feel taken care of somehow some way. Now my relationship to the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, is insanely strong. I'm not a religious guy, but I have a real connection with the universe and the energy that is not me. It's not me. I know that. I mean, that's the most important piece, right? Me knowing that I'm not the one in charge, and that's all I care about.

I don't question it. I don't wonder. I mean, I do things every single day, which I'm sure we'll get into in terms of like my habits, my habits or everything for me. But, yes, you're right. I'm lucky to have gotten through a bunch of intense moments that at the time didn't seem so crazy because the crew of guys that I hung out with

was like a Tuesday afternoon. The kids were getting robbed all the time. All the time. all the time, you know, bad motherfuckers just doing bad things. And I, you know, one thing led to the next, I moved out to California, I lived in Venice for a year. Okay, what do you know, 21? 20, 20, 20, I moved out to Venice. I lived on a market street between Pacific and Speedway before Venice was like, you know, Abakini and everything on Abakini,

but I lived out there for a year. I was really kind of chasing an acting career. I wanted to act. Oh, really? Because, I mean, and I think the only reason why I really wanted to act was because I was in the hospitality business and everybody in the hospitality business was actor.

So I was like, oh yeah, this is obviously what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna try Justin. Yeah. You know, I'm just a film musician. And so I went out there and man, it was bad. It was bad, you know, I took me with me. You know, I crashed cars, I got into crashed. The first time I was ever on a motorcycle crashed it.

You know, it was just, it was not good. And I really made my friends' lives miserable out there because they were childhood friends of mine. I moved in with them. I actually moved out there to try to clean my life up though. And I remember going, that was the intent. Yeah, that was the intent.

I was gonna say, my next question was gonna be, like how did you handle money? Because if you built a hustling business on the East Coast, that's not easy to, that's all about connections and relationships and all that stuff like that. You're going on the other side of the country. Yeah, I basically, I basically surrendered that business outside of connecting a couple of people with people and staying in the mix that way, and having trust in people, really, at the end of the day, to do right by me,

after years of relationship developing, developing, but I went out there, and I didn't do any of that out there. I really was trying to clean it up and get my shit together. And so I went to alcoholics anonymous and second meeting I went into, I locked eyes with this girl and that was it. You know, her and I connected and off to the races together. And it was your wife today? Definitely not. Definitely not. Definitely not.

But yeah, I mean, you know, her and I had a relationship and she, I mean, I was crazy as hell. I was crazy as hell. I don't even know what she was thinking. But yeah, I just, I, I, nothing good happened out there for me. And I, I, I went, it was Christmas, 2021. Christmas 2020. And, oh, how did you get to,

how did we get all the way to Christmas 2020? I mean, excuse me, Christmas 2000. Oh, I was like, whoa bro, you just skipped like a decade and a half right there, dude, go back up. It's Christmas 2000, Christmas 2000, and I came home for Christmas, and my father died on that trip home. So I came home, my dad was pretty sick.

I mean, he had been in and out of the hospital. And at that point, you know, my relationship with him was definitely better because we were not living together or seeing each other much at all. He really had not a lot of respect for me because of the life that I was living. But I will say, and it makes me emotional to think about it, I remember we did go out for Chinese food when I got home from that trip. And I remember sitting across the table from my father and

We were talking about California and he He said to me we were talking about acting and how they acting things going and he looked at me and he said, you know, you have a lot of emotional baggage that you can tap into in order to channel it for acting. And I was like, yeah, like what? And he closed his eyes and then he opened his eyes and he started bawling, crying. And he said, you know, just tap into this shit that you and I went through. And I just like, when I think about that, it really, really, it was, that was like a moment where I felt like my father was kind of forgiving me. And I'm saying sorry.

You're saying sorry, you know. Anyway, he, on Christmas night, he was not the Christmas night or Christmas Eve, he had a diabetic seizure, and we rushed him to the hospital and he was in the hospital for a few days, which he had kind of been in and out of. And then one night, he had apparently a hard attack and went into a coma and stayed in a coma until the day he died.

January 11th, February 11th, 2001. So not that long after that moment? Right, yeah, so that was like that was it. And then, I also had an opportunity, even though I was totally out to lunch for most of that time, because I just didn't know how to process what was going on, but I did go into the hospital alone, and he was in a coma, and I remember sitting on the floor, making a man's to my dad. And that night, I had a dream that he was dead. And then he died a day later. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And you know, like today, God, do I wish, even though all the shit that we went through together, Father and Son, do I wish to God that I can have Him back for a day?

I mean, I'm even getting emotional. I didn't think that was going to happen. I'm thinking about it, but I would love to be able to have my dad to just, even though it was so hard just to show him that I've changed, you know, that I'm a different human. I am like, like I'm in there, me being a father today of these two guys. I could never imagine yelling at my kids like that, treating my kids like that. I could never, ever, ever imagine doing that.

my kids like that, I could never, ever, ever imagine doing that. Like, you have to be so angry and hate yourself so much to be able to project that kind of energy towards little kids. I just can't imagine it. Broken man. Broken. He was broken. And I don't blame him for it, you know? I really don't.

I mean, I've come to terms with that shit. But I would love to have him for one day to be able to say, hey man, you know, and the crazy thing, man, is that I know he's, and this goes back to like my my grandmother and the spiritual kind of connection that I believe I have, I believe that he's come to visit me in my dreams. Like I have had full-fledged conversations with my father in my dreams, talking about relevant stuff and waking up in the middle of the night crying and waking up my wife and being like, I just had a conversation with my dad.

Well, that's crazy. And the weirdest thing is, I've only had a reading one, actually twice, but a reading that really, somebody said to me, hey, you should try this out, you should call this person. And I called this woman, and she was like, well, we can do this over the phone. And a reading is like a psychic, like sort of capping into the dead. And so she started, and this woman, I mean, she knew everything. She knew everything, like impossible,

that she could have like Googled and Facebook, and like, I was like, she must have been all over my Facebook. She must have been tracking you know, track and and and and then I kind of like, you know, like to succumb to the fact that this woman is actually speaking to the dead. And you know, she she brought things up about my father and I that I couldn't that I could never have imagined. And she said to me Your father visits you and your dreams and he also moves the pictures on the wall and I was like

In our apartment in Brooklyn you walk into our apartment. There's a wall that's sort of diagonal right here Like you walk in the front door. There's a diagonal wall. On this diagonal wall is a family wall, family pictures. Pictures are always crooked on this wall, and we always, you know, straighten them. Uh, and I always just assume that that was from the door closing and the, and the, and the pictures were shift. And this woman said, your dad moves the pictures on the wall, and he visits you in your dreams. And I was just like lost it. When she said that, I lost it. My wife was like, what's the matter?

And I was like, tell ya. It's like you could believe what you want. But you know, this woman knew everything about me. She said this, she said my grandmother, you know, orchestrated all these people. She said, this is my first dog. She said, you know, she said that a white dog is always with you, always, always with you, and I'm like a massive dog, dude.

And, you know, when Duke died, it was probably the hardest day of my life. And, like, crushed, losing my father, my dog, Duke died. Yeah, I don't know. We kind of digressing, but you know. So anyway, I guess getting to the good stuff. Yeah, when did that start changing for you? Cause you're at now, so different. I had known that I had a problem

with drugs and alcohol for a long time. Since I was a kid, since I was 15. I knew it. I knew that I had a long love affair with escapism. And that's what that was my way of doing it. And so I knew that it had to stop at some point. I knew it was either gonna take me out or I had to come to terms with it and figure out a way to change.

I just didn't know how, but I had started trying. I'd started, you know, I'd gone to an A meeting on my own, couldn't figure it out. You know, I was miserable. I really hated myself at that point in my life. And I... I had overdosed on heroin two weeks before I actually got sober. What, how old are you right now?

23. Okay, okay. And I was in this apartment with this girl, and we were doing heroin for a few days, and I remember seeing my for a few days and I remember Seemed like getting a glimpse of myself in the mirror and When you're when you're high on drugs like you know, you can you can look at yourself in the mirror and your face will be pale And that's normal, you know when you're high on you know really high like pale face. They're like all right

Well, that's kind of like normal. I caught a glimpse of myself in a full-length mirror and my whole body top to bottom was white like these Air Force ones. And it scared the shit out of me. And I was like, I've never experienced that before. I never felt that way. I never experienced that. And I stood up and I was naked. I stood up and I was out.

I fell. And I was coming in and out and I was like, please call the ambulance. She was afraid to call the ambulance. She got me into the bathtub. She turned on cold water. I was on the shower. I was like coming in and out and I was like, please call the ambulance. She was afraid to call the ambulance. She got me into the bathtub. She turned on cold water. I was on the shower. I was like coming in and out of consciousness somehow some way. Fourth time.

I came through it. And I remember lying in the bed shivering and saying, myself, God, please help me. I can't ever do this again. I just can't ever do this again. I have too much to offer. Like, how can I do this again. I just can't ever do this again. I have too much to offer. How can I do this to myself? And three hours later, four hours later, I was walking east on 13th Street,

and I said, Mike, this has got to be the end, man. It has to be the end. And it wasn't. I found myself that night, you know, still, you know, up to the old shenanigans. And then I kind of had made a decision. I said, this is it. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna die this way.

And I'm gonna do everything in my power to do it as quickly as possible. So I partied hard for two straight weeks. And it was a Monday morning. I'd been up for a few days, Monday morning, and I was with two of my friends. They had said, all right, man, we're done calling it a night. I said, I'm not, you know, because I made a decision that I was going to go as hard as

I could. And I got, we were on the roof of my building. I got into my apartment and I like, again, caught myself in the mirror, looked at the guy that was looking back at me Said I hated myself said I didn't deserve to live wanted to kill myself for the first time really I like really wanted to do it. It wasn't like oh, I should kill myself. This is such a hard life It was like dude, you're just useless and worthless and you You should just jump out the window and

I thought about all different ways that I could do it, I locked my bedroom door and I passed out and I woke up 16 hours later and I slept through, I was supposed to work that day, I slept through work, my boss fired me, and my job was like everything. I was working in this Italian restaurant. It was like everything for me. I loved, I had nothing else going on in my life, really. I didn't. And I lived upstairs from the restaurant.

I lived in the same building on Second Avenue, in Patrine Fifth and Sixth Street. And I begged him for my job. I begged him for my job. I begged him for my job. It wasn't, I didn't think that I was gonna get, I liked the sort of like getting sober, it wasn't, didn't like cross my mind that moment, but I begged him for my job. And he said, look man, I love you kid.

I was 23. I've been working there for three years. He's like, I'm not gonna watch you kill yourself. I'm like, I'm I die, I'm not gonna watch you kill yourself. I'm like, I'm I die. I'm not gonna do it. So I will be willing to give you an opportunity to get sober, but you have to get sober

and you have to show up here at eight o'clock in the morning and clean the restaurant with the porters. And if you can stay sober for 30 days, I'll potentially give you your job back as a bartender. But you gotta get sober. Wow. And that's gotta get sober. Wow. And that's what I did. Wow. You saved your life, bro.

Save my life. Really he did. And then I went to a meeting, an A meeting, and, and, yeah, that was the beginning of the, that was the end of the beginning of the end of the dark days and the beginning of the new days for me. So is that at the same time when you find the Muay Thai guys? Yep.

So there was a woman who I worked with at that nightclub life who was this woman Karen who became like an older sister to me. And she was dating this dude Marcus. And I knew Marcus was sober. Karen wasn't but Karen had taken me in many times throughout this crazy period of my life. You know, I would be down and out. She would like let me sleep in her at her house.

And so I called Karen and I said, hey, I'm trying to change my life. Like I got to figure something out, you know. And she said, I'm calling Marcus right now. And so I knew that I can get, it was Tuesday morning, I knew that I can get to an A meeting, I knew of an A meeting I'm first and first. And I went there and then he met me after the meeting Marcus. And he introduced me to a dude named Gavin and those two guys You know they were like angels how much older were they than you?

They're both 10 years older than me. I think eight to 10 years older than me. Okay, so they're like 30 early 30 Yeah, I looked up to them. You know, they were both dudes covering tattoos and they took me to the Moitag gym and they and they took me to the Moitagin and they were like, we're gonna teach you how to change your life but we're gonna teach you about commitment, discipline, we're gonna teach you about integrity, humility, we're gonna write you a plan. And I was like, why are these guys trying to help me? Yeah, yeah. You know, like, what is, like, what, like,

and I stopped trying to question it, and I just rolled with it. And they wrote me a meal plan. They said they wrote me, like, what you're gonna do is you're gonna wake up as early as you can in the morning. You're gonna do your best to go for a run, and that could mean run around the block. That could mean run a mile, that could be run five miles,

but get outside and take a run. Have a bowl of oatmeal when you get back home. Go to this A A meeting at 10 o'clock, come straight to the gym, Moittai gym right after the A A meeting. You're going to train with us and we're going to kick your fucking ass and teach you how to be a man. You're going to have lunch after that, which is ideally going to be chicken and broccoli. You're going to take a nap and you're going gonna go to work and do it all over again. And that's your day. And that's what I did. That's what I did. I prayed every

morning because they also told me that I had to pray and they didn't talk to me about meditation or all the things that I do now, but they basically said, you need help, you haven't been able to ask for help for years and years, and I'm not telling you, you gotta believe in God or anything like that, but you gotta start your day with humility, get on your fucking knees, and ask the universe for help. And that made me think of my grandmother, and I took to it like that, And I began to build my life.

I changed, you know, I go deep into the world of fitness and Muay Thai. And I got so passionate about Muay Thai. And I, you know, I watched my body change in the course of probably within 90 days, I was in the best shape I had ever been. I really cared about what I put into my body for the first time ever. I became passionate about running.

And six, seven months after I made that change, I met what is now, who's now my wife. And she's never seen the guy that we just spent the last hour talking about. That's great. You know, and we've been together now over 17 years. And she celebrated my first year anniversary, you know, sobriety anniversary. So I owe my life to the rest of my life to all the experiences that I had, right? Because had I not gone through those things, the chances of my life. I owe my life to all the experiences that I have, right? Because had I not gone through those things, the chances of me doing what I'm doing now are slim to none, right?

Like it had it been just like a, you know, normal kid life. Like I wouldn't have the balls. I wouldn't have the, the driver, the ambition to want to go at everything with everything I've got. And I really do owe that to that experience. And then of course, Frank, prison zano, shout out to Frank, who said, I'm not going to watch you die, dude.

I'm not going to let you die on my watch. And it was like the stars aligned for me once again, you know and so I dove I again, you know like my life was really about Moitai eating healthy staying sober and my girlfriend and She stuck by my side. I you know she And and I I also never in a million years thought that I would find a side. I, you know, she, and I, I also never in a million years

thought that I would find a woman like her, you know? Like, she, first of all, she was 22, I was 24. She was like a top model of traveling all over the fucking world. She was like three years taller than me. I'm like, there's no way. Like, she came into the restaurant one night and I was like, this taller than me. I'm like, there's no way like she came into the restaurant one night And I'm I was like this woman is so beautiful

She was with a girlfriend and two dudes, but I was like there were two guys and there's I'm just like I'm I'm like Not even gonna pay it any attention, but she's fucking beautiful Anyway, and now we're gonna have later after they had sat down, the two dudes leave and they come and sit at the bar. The two girls and I'm like, wait a second, there might be a chance here. Anyway, so they hung out on the all night and Donna, it was August and the only reason why I know the exact date was because her birthday's

on April 25th and it was April 23rd and she was two days before her birthday and I was like, they hung out with me for like three, four hours. And I said, before they were leaving, I was like, you gotta let me take you out for dinner. You just gotta let me take you out for dinner. And I would love to do it on your birthday. I'm off in a couple of days. Let me take you out for dinner on your birthday. And she was like, I can't, I've got plans. And I was like, well, if you let me take you out tomorrow

night at 10 o'clock, we can celebrate your birthday at midnight. And I'll still be able to take you out on your birthday. And she was like, all right, I'll let you do that. And we went out for dinner. I took her to my favorite restaurant, Blue Ribbon. And we had an amazing night. And then she ghosted me for two weeks because that guy was actually a dude that she was, she wasn't, it wasn't her boyfriend, but it was a dude that she was seeing. So she was, you know, she had to figure that out.

But she texted me two weeks later, and we've been tied at the hip ever since, and she's the love of my life. And yeah. What point, what point did things start happening for you? So obviously you've turned your life around, you meet your wife, you're getting in your best shape of your life.

When does the business stuff start happening? Because I know it was the meatball restaurant first involved the things. Yep. Okay, so tell me the origin story of that. You know, when I was 25, I had kind of come to the conclusion or the realization that I wanted to, I was going to be in the restaurant business. This was going to be where I hung my hat because I just loved, I really loved connecting

with people. I do believe that that is my purpose and my superpower. You know, I mean, I've never met you guys before and I've just sat down with you all and we're like, you know, I feel like I genuinely believe that you could put me in any situation, anywhere in the world at any time, at any hour of the day and I will find a way to connect.

I'll find a way to connect. You know, it could be in the White House, and it can be in the Favella. That's like, do you remember when you made that connection to that, a lot of that came from all the shit that you went through? I mean, I don't actually, when you guys asked me that earlier, you know, I really do believe that having to figure out how to make my friends' parents like me, yeah, played a big role in it.

Plus, you're working restaurants and in that environment, since you're a kid, that's a lot of training. And I also know that, like, you know, I got paid in restaurants based on how much people liked me. Yeah, you worked, I got paid in restaurants based on how much people liked me. Yeah. It worked on that skill. Yeah. So I was 25. I said, this is it. I'm going to do this. I'm going to take Frank out and I'm going to tell him that I want to do this restaurant.

And he's going to be like, go get it, kid. I'm going to support you. Here's, you know, here's the money to do it. And it was, it was, it was different. You know, he looked at me and he was basically like, I hear you. I love you. I just don't think you have it in you. And that was when I flipped the switch and the fire really was lit under my ass.

And I said, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it not in spite of him, but I'm going to do it because I Really believe I do have what it takes and And as I was leaving, you know, he said you know Mikey, but if you want to do it, you should you should you should enroll in culinary school so the next day checked out the culinary schools around town and there was the CIA Checked out the culinary schools around town and there was the CIA which was a four-year commitment and $400,000 commitment and then there was a French culinary institute which was about I

Think it was like 12 or 13 months commitment and I could do it. I could get financial aid and I could do it get financial aid and I could do it during like three or four days a week from eight o'clock in the morning till four o'clock in the afternoon and still get to hold still like 60 80 grand, right? Still pretty expensive. I think it was 45 grand at that time. And so I enrolled. I enrolled and I went to culinary school probably a few months later while I was there. I was going to culinary school during the day months later. While I was there, I was going to culinary school

during the day, going right to work at night. It was an intense time. But while I was there in culinary school, Cornell has the number one hospitality program in the country, Cornell University. And so professors from Cornell, a couple of restaurant tours from Union Square Hospitality Group, which is a big hospitality group in New York, Danny Myers, Shakezak,

and all these really, really iconic New York restaurants. Cornell, a couple of those restaurant tours, and French culinary put together a truncated associates degree in restaurant management. So they introduced that about halfway through my culinary arts program and they offered a scholarship to it for one person. And I said, chances are I'm definitely not going to get the scholarship. But the scholarship was you have to submit a fully baked restaurant concept and send it in and see if it got picked. And sure enough, I came up with a concept called homemade and the concept was a burger restaurant that you can choose.

It was a burger restaurant and you design your own burgers, but the real kicker was, there was artisanal cheeses that you can choose to pair with different proteins. So like you can have like these crazy cheeses. Basically the most incredible cheeseburger you've ever had in your life, right? And they were bringing in different cheeses and anyway I came up with this idea of this concept. Oh man. And I won. I won this college. No shit.

Yeah, I got it. Oh, that's so cool. And so I took that course. So it was like an 18, 20 month total thing and graduated. And put my head down. I was 26 and a half, 27. Wrote a business plan. My best friend from childhood, Dan Holesman, who really

lived a different life than I did. He and I, he always was somehow my connection to some stability because he was not a drug addict. Even though he parted, he always was like somehow my connection to some stability because he was not a drug addict, even though he parted, he was not a drug addict, he was not a bad kid. Didn't get into the things, I mean, he'll tell a funny story. Anyway, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I got in trouble for something in school and I was a junior and this is high school high school Yeah, and they I knew that I was I was getting I was something something bad was gonna happen I don't I don't remember exactly what I did But I was like I called like you know I I told Dan to come over here and I basically handed him a softball of cocaine

I told Dan to come over here and I basically handed him a soft ball of cocaine. And I said, dude, you gotta hold on to this thing for me. Junior year in high school, he'll tell that story, like it hilarious. He was. Yeah. But, so he, you know, he and I got our first job in a restaurant together.

He was 13, I was 12, Kendall Cafe on the Upper East Side of New York City. I was delivering food on rollerblades And he was he was answering phones in the delivery department And so that's kind of where we how we met you know where we met our you know that that's basically how we became friends And he gravitated towards the back of the house and in the kitchen I gravitated towards the front of the house and we stayed working in restaurants on and off together, but like our whole lives, right? When I knew that I was going to, you know, I wanted to do this restaurant, I said he, and he was living out here, he was living in San Francisco, cooking in all the fancy restaurants out here. And I said, dude,

you got to get back to New York, man. You got to get back to New York man. You gotta get back to New York and we gotta open up this restaurant. You're gonna fucking kill it. And he was like, man, you know, I'm like, you know, he was at like the fifth floor, the slanted door, one of these fancy restaurants out here. And he was like, I'm building my culinary career. This and that, I was like, dude, I'm telling you man, you gotta get back to New York, we gotta open up this restaurant together. He's like, I'm in a relationship,

and I called his older brother, who's also like my brother, and I was like, Eli, you gotta tell Dan to get back here. You just gotta tell him, I know that this thing is gonna work. And he was like, just keep working on him, keep working on him. And then one day, I called him, or he called me,

actually, and he was like, dude, I just broke up with my girl, I'm so bummed. And I one day I called him or he called me actually and he was like, dude, I just broke up with my girl. I'm so bummed. And I was like, there it is. This is my chance. I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. Why don't you come back to New York? Well, hang. We'll go out, you know, like take a, take a few weeks. Well, we'll hang. Anyway, I ended up getting to move back to New York. And we started putting the pen to paper and we wrote a business plan and we came up with this idea. At this restaurant that I worked at, it had now been seven and a half years that I was working there for Frank.

There was a dish on the menu called the Rigatoni Ragu. And it, um, it sounds bold. The restaurant, Frank Restaurant, is arguably one of the best Italian restaurants in New York. Definitely, at the time that I was working there, was definitely had the best Italian wine list in New York. Tiny little mom and pop restaurant. Just fucking insane though, just unbelievably packed,

and just pot, like, you know, you'd walk in there and there'd be like, at that time, you know, there would be like, Kate Moss, and like, fucking Sean like, at that time, you know, there would be like, Kate Moss and like, Sean Penn, you know, one of these spots, like cool downtown little spots. And so Rigatoni Ragu, I was the king of selling a $13 bowl of Rigatoni Ragu pasta and a $13,300 bottle of like, or mono del fourno to the same person. You know, I was like, that was my, that was every night I was like,

I'm gonna do a Rigatoni with a fucking del fourno. And, but the pasta was so good, the dish was so good. And for family meal for me, two to three nights a week, I would say, hey, let me get the Rigatoni ragu, sounds the Rigatoni. Just give me the meatballs, the sausage, tomato sauce, side abruptly, side spinach, side of beets.

And that was my meal. And people would ask me, what is that? And I'd be like, I'm just having meatballs and tomato sauce with a bunch of veggies. And one day I was like, man, this is a restaurant concept. Like I can make tons of different kinds of meatballs and the size are endless, you know, endless. Everybody loves meatballs.

And so Dan and I couldn't figure out what we wanted to do restaurant-wise. We were walking north on second avenue. And I just said, man, what about meatballs? What about meatballs? And he was like, hmm, meatballs. And I'm talking to this guy who was at La Bernadette, the number one restaurant in the world for like four years.

You know, all these fancy restaurants here in San Francisco, I'm like, let's open up a fucking meatball window. Um, anyway, he perked up and we started cooking meatballs. And we started cooking meatballs in my apartment in Brooklyn. We invited all of our friends over on Sunday nights. We started writing the business plan. And that's it.

We locked in. We locked in on this. People were like, this is really cool. And then I put the business plan in front of every regular at Frank Restaurant. That had watched me grow from a kid to semi-man. And 14 of those guys wrote me a check. And oh wow. Really? Test right there. Is that relationship stuff you're talking about? No. 14 of those guys wrote me a check and I put my life savings into it, which was not a lot at the time, and Dan put his life savings into it. And we took

this little restaurant, 39 seats on Stan Street between Orchard and Allen, called it the Meatball Shop, did meatballs, sides, and custom ice cream sandwiches for dessert. And I mean, do it right out right away. So we hired a publicist that was advised. I had no idea what a publicist was. This is like all new to me. You know, this whole business thing is all kind of new to me in the restaurant world. But anyway, we were advised to hire a publicist.

And at that time, restaurant PR was very significant. Like, the restaurant industry in New York City at the time was changing. It was, this is the beginning of social media. You know what I mean? People were taking pictures of all their fucking food. People were, were, were, were yelping like crazy. And it was really starting to, like, it it wasn't more it wasn't about like what is your what's the best restaurant in New York it was more what's the best pizza in New

York what's the best sushi in New York what's your favorite burger in New York or specific like what's the what's the what's the what's the ramen spot anyway so this so this the biggest the the biggest publicist in New York at that time was it was a few of them but one of them was guy Phil Bolts and he had a company called Bolts and Co. And so somebody introduced us to him, and Daniel and I did not hire a contractor to build out the meatball shop. He and I did it like haphazardly together. I had never, I'm a New York City kid,

spent most of my life like running the streets. I was not a power tools guy. Like I had no idea, he bit like, and his father was a construction worker. So he handed me a grinder, and I'm like, what do you want me to do with this thing? And so I was his bitch for like three months. Cause he knew what he was doing kinda.

his bitch for like three months. Cause he knew what he was doing kind of. But we turned this old noodle restaurant called Slurp into the meatball shop in two and a half months. No contractor. Like I spent like no money. There's the middle of the winter. Anyway, we put, you know, we papered the windows and this guy walks in about a month into Dan and I do on the work and I'm like, on my knees, sand in the floor, he, you know, I'm the craziest

thing too, is like, I mean, I, I called a friend who was in construction. I said, Hey, you know, I need a bunch of wood. I'm trying to build tables for a restaurant. He was like, Well, that's so interesting. You know, we're demoing an old tenement on third street, right off of the bowery, go get a truck. There's three inch floorboards or three inch rafters that were just thrown out into the dumpster. So show up and we'll give you all these things. So I'm talking about these beautiful, hard pine, three inch thick, 20 foot long boards that we just, we could take as much as we want. And so we filled up this truck,

my uncle is a cabin trist in Queens. We filled up the truck, took it out to my uncle's spot, and he made the bar, he made, and he made the tables for the first three meatball shops out of the same wood, but he made the bar, I mean, it was, it was a crazy cool story. So cool.

And actually the New York Post had a full piece on that wood story. And so, you know, we did that, like, it was just so, you know, bootstrap to the max, the max, the max. Like, we didn't want to turn on the heat because we didn't want to pay the bills. So we were working in a freezing cold, fucking room, concrete floors. Like, it was just brutal. Anyway.

So, Publist just walks in, he sees us bust in our ass, he meets us, and he's like, you two are like, this is like out of a movie. You know, he's like, you two are best friends, you're doing this, like, you guys are building the place,

meatballs, nobody's done a meatball place. Who knows if it's gonna work, but I thought like you guys. He gave us a shot. And he gave us a shot for a steep discount. Anyway, the day that we opened the restaurant, February 11th, 2010, February 9th, 2010, sorry. Dan, Dan is the most pessimistic skeptical dude you've ever met in your life.

This guy is like, you know, he is just like, it is never gonna work. And that's why we complimented each other in the beginning because I am the most optimistic, positive. Like I could be looking at Mount Everest and I'm in my underwear and I'm like, I got this. I'll figure it out.

You know, anyway, we're staying at the back of the restaurant and I'm like, we are going to crush and the paper was on the walls. Paper was on the windows. We did not look outside. We were like running around the restaurant trying to get this place ready and he was like, do there's nobody out there I guarantee.

Five o'clock, publicists said, you do not take that paper off those walls. You do not want anybody getting into the restaurant or taking pictures of the restaurant and leaking this to the press before we have our our our our PR plan. Sure enough, five o'clock comes ripped the papers off the walls. And there was a line of people outside of this restaurant in front of the restaurant down to Orchard Street Half way up Orchard Street. There was over 200 people online. Oh wow, wow, and so I

Looked at Dan and I was like holy shit. I Walked all the way to the end of the line. I told all the people to walk out in front of the restaurant And we took a picture of all these people waiting on oh so cool If any idea what the concept was, this is a whole. They did because there was like, you know, the PR was like, so the way the PR works is you give an exclusive to the New York Times. You try to get, you try to get the New York Times to, and there's a woman named Florence Fabricant who covers all like the new spots.

And she's like, she'll write a blurb, You know, New York Times isn't gonna write a big piece on a restaurant that's never opened before, but if Florence Fabricant likes the idea, she'll give you a blurb on a Wednesday, you know? And so you give them the thing, and then you tell them that it's exclusive, but then you kind of tell every other publication that they got the exclusive to, and you line it up. You line it up. So you're like, New York Times is going to get

the exclusive and then you lock the days in and once they lock in the piece, they're not pulling it. And they know that this shit goes down. I'm not like spilling the beans here. You know, like it's like a stretch. Part of the hustle. Part of the hustle. So we got Florence Fabricantia right about it. We got New York Mac, like all these people just and every day a new piece came out, right? Leading into it and people were fired up, but they didn't want anybody into the restaurant

to see what it looked like inside. Because they wanted the New York Times wanted to like reveal, you know, this thing, or New York Magazine wanted to reveal the images of the photo of the shots. And so that line never ended. We paid our investors back in six months.

Wow. We were cooking meatballs on Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon, Chelsea Handler, the United America, the stage show. Wow. Just a fire. With any year, it was just like wildfire. Wildfire, it was insane. And we raised more money, we opened up, let me go back a little bit,

because I do want to know, I'm curious, because I know it's not cheap to start out. How much initial capital did it take? We opened up the first restaurant for just under 400 grand. Okay. So it was like under 400 grand. Okay. So it was like 390 grand.

But, you know, the crazy thing is, you plan for the worst in the restaurant biz, you know, and most restaurants go out of business, not because the ideas, not great, or the food isn't awesome, or the staff isn't great. It's because they don't have enough money in the bank to hold on till. It's a battle of a church starts to it's because they don't have enough money in the bank to hold on until... So battle of a church starts to...

Oh, is that true? ...to turn cash on positive. Under capitalization. I mean, look, there's definitely people that go into the restaurant business. You know, people that are rich, they're like, oh man, I'm an open-air restaurant. Yeah, these are the... Because there's so many moving parts and the margins are so slim. But you have to be capitalized. You have to have operating cash in the bank

because there's gonna be months where you lose money. It's just the nature of the beast, you know? And if you lose money and you've got no money in the bank and you can't make payroll, everybody quits. And you're done. You're done. So, you know, we were lucky that the restaurant took off like crazy because I don't remember how much we had, I think we had 40 or 50 grand left over in the bank and you typically want

to have six months worth of business operations in the bank when you open up a restaurant or at all times really. And so yeah, so it was a wild time and unbelievable. And that's what sort of gave me the confidence to start building a media career for myself too, because I felt really good like in the environment. And so when you took on more capital, how much more capital did you take on

and was the plan, let's go open up more of these. Is that what you're thinking? Yeah, so we actually, we took on three and a half million bucks. Oh, wow. So serious capital now. Serious cash. Took on three and a half million bucks after we pay back our initial investors. And we began, and basically they had committed to three and a half million.

And we would be able to draw it down as needed when we were ready to open a restaurant. And it was one of the initial investors that did that. So Daniel and I just started figuring out where we were going to open up these restaurants. The second restaurant, I knew that I wanted to be in Williamsburg. I was living in Williamsburg at the time. I really wanted to open up a restaurant in Williamsburg. There wasn't a lot in Williamsburg at that point. I knew that we would crush it there. And simultaneously, we found a West Village opportunity

that it's kind of like in New York, when you're a New York City restaurant person, the West Village is just like, it's kind of like an iconic place to have a restaurant. Like some of the best restaurants in New York are in the West Village. So when we found this little place in the West Village, small little spot, we decided to sign two leases pretty much the same time.

And you know, it like there was a lot of unbelievable learnings from that first year, year and a half. But it was also really challenging for Dan and I. Because like I said, you know, I'm a super optimistic dude and he is a super skeptical guy and one of the smartest guys I know. But I'm definitely the creative visionary out of the two of us. And so we were butting heads man. Even though the business was, we could not have asked for better business.

We could not have asked for a better outcome. It was challenging for us to work together. But we stuck with it until we couldn't stick with it anymore, until it got to a point where I was like, yo, I am miserable. I can't, I don't feel like I'm living, I'm working 16, 18 hours a day, seven days a week, brutal. I've got to love this shit.

And that's when I learned that I was not motivated by money. Money did not motivate me. Even though I love it, it's awesome to have. My happiness is far more important than cash in the bank and capital. And I think that was a real turning point for me in my life because I wanted a bow out of me, Paul. I wanted to, I didn't want to deal with this, not the stress of the business because I was actually, I say today, you know, I wanted to, I didn't want to deal with this, not the stress of the business because I was actually, I say today, you know, put me in any negative situation and like

negative situation, chaos, challenge, difficulty, I thrive. Put me in a room with a bunch of negative people and it's my kryptonite. I cannot function. I just cannot function. I do not do well with negative people. People that'll look at something and say, there's no way. I did not believe in there's no way. I still don't believe in that there's no way. I have been able to figure shit out my whole life. And when you say no way to me, the second that I spend thinking of impossible no way is a second I'm not spending, a second I'm not spending thinking about possible every fucking possible way. And I realized that then. And I said, you know what I'm not doing this, you know, you guys want to scale the business

in a different way than I want to scale the business. Dan wanted to open up and hunting in Long Island, Connecticut, Westchester, Jersey. I was like, I've got no interest in hunting in Long Island, Westchester, Connecticut. Like, I do not see myself immersing into those communities. I'm a New York City guy. I wanna open up in Los Angeles, Chicago, South Florida, Austin, Texas.

Like, I could do that. Totally see myself being, and also the media was so strong in our business. The PR was so strong, I was like, we need to go make a splash. Like, you don't go from New York City to Huntington Long Island and people are like, yeah! Yeah!

You're like, oh man, that's where you go to die. You gotta go with it, you gotta make, you gotta hit the billboards. Like, that's what's gotta happen. I was like, Dan, if we open up an L.A. It'll be like New York all over again, you know, like so he's trying to be more practical. You got a grand revision of where you guys can get. He is he is a very again like. me, boss, would not be successful without him for sure because he is very smart. Yeah, yeah. And he, and he was, he was, he basically held, you know, held me, range, yeah, yeah, range me in. Because I'm just down to, to, to take a risk and, and, and jump off first.

So I, I, you know, I said, I said to the guys, look, I don't want to do this anymore. Dan and I were not seen either. I were not getting along and I'm miserable. And I didn't change my life to be miserable. I would rather take a risk on selling you guys some of my equity and going out and trying to create another restaurant concept because I know I have the confidence that I can do that Then try to trudge the mud here and be miserable even though the business is crushing

So that's what we did they bought they bought out a significant piece of my equity. I stayed on as a board advisor What was your your equity time? Were you 50 50 or did you have a percentage because you had investors and stuff? What did what? Yeah, so Dan and I each owned 33% of the company each and the investors own 33% pretty much. Okay. But you still kept tensed. They really only bought out 20 something percent of you.

Yeah, they basically bought 24 20 23 24 percent. So I took me just under 10% of the company. How big of a payday was that for you? It's pretty big. I mean, for me, you know, I mean, it was definitely seven figures, you know. Yeah. And I was 32, so I was like, this is it. Like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, like that day came and I was like, I felt, it made me, I felt

good for the first time in a, in, in a little bit, because I, even though I knew that the company was, I gave those, I gave them a great deal on little bit, because even though I knew that the company was, I gave them a great deal on my equity, and I knew that the company was gonna be worth probably way more over time. I just knew that I need to be happy. So anybody that's listening, you know, like I promise you, money does not buy happiness.

I know that, I know that for sure, for sure. What direction do you go after that? So I started developing my next restaurant concept, which is called Seymour's, which I opened. This was seafood one. Seafood concept, sustainable seafood. I'm a lifelong fisherman. I love fishing. I love sustainability. I really wanted to open up a seafood spot that showcased local sustainable fish because I grew up fishing and all the fish that I grew up catching you never see on menus in New York City. It's tuna halibut cod, you know, shrimp, crab legs, like that's what lobster, that's what people think of seafood, right? There's a plethora of underutilized species of fish that will actually save the ocean by us eating it not to plead the ocean by us.

And so I created this really fun restaurant concept. I opened it without partners in 2015. And the exact same thing happened. Crushed it. Crushed it. Same, give me an idea too. Now you get paid in seven figures, which by the way, in the restaurant business is actually huge pal, especially considering you're only getting 20%. That's a big fucking deal. Restaurants aren't typically huge money, money makers.

Yeah, but also just for me, I think when you think about it, I was smoking crack six years before this. You know what I mean? Well, this was crazy. It's crazy that I was able to like really transition my life. Yeah, that's unbelievable. So now you're stacked up at a point in your life where you now for sure know that money isn't all you want at all, like there's other things. You take that parlay, some of that into this,

and you pay it yourself, so you're taking a half million of that money, a big chunk of money and going all in on the seafood. Yeah, I took a big chunk of my cash, and then I raised some more. Okay. So I raised some more money. I didn't do the whole thing on my own.

But I did it alone without partners. But I did alone without partners. I needed a break from partners. I didn't know if I was gonna scale this thing. I didn't know what I was gonna do with it, but I knew that I needed to see if I had what it took to do it again. And I loved every minute of it. My wife was nervous,

because of course I'm taking another risk. And I should also just say the whole way through here, like, I met Donna in, you know, when I was 24 in 2003, and excuse me, I was, yeah, I was 24 in 2004. And, uh, she, like, supported every second of my life, the whole way through. Like, she knew I was tender when I was getting sober. I was very clear with her, like, look, my life, you know, when I met her was like, I was dedicated to Moitai, and I was dedicated to like being a better version of myself,

and I needed to go to AA, and I needed to do all these things about in my sobriety, and like, if you can manage that, and if you can deal with that, and if you know that I'm not going to be going out partying or whatever, she was like, I'm with you 100%. Wow.

And good woman will see potential. Yeah. They do that really well, don't they? Well, she, I mean, she saw it. She saw it and she is the strongest, she's just an unbelievable person. I mean, really, my wife is very special person.

She's Danish, she's raised on, she will hate, if I say this, but I'm gonna say it, cause it's true. She was raised on a farm, all women. There was very few men in her life to, you know, her father left, you know, the parents got the boards. It was, it was Donna, her mom, her sister, her, her younger brother, her aunt and her grandmother, all, all on one dirt road.

So, like 35, my, 35 minutes outside of Copenhagen. So, like 35 minutes outside of Copenhagen. And I love my European, I love my Danish family. I love them. They're, I like truly, I really love them. Like I have the best in laws. Both her mom and her dad, I love them. So she was raised with this like, in this like strong household, you know,

where she just, she really is self-sufficient. She did not need me to carry her any witch way shape or form. She carried me. She was the breadwinner for the first many years of our relationship through her modeling work. But anyway, so I opened up this restaurant and a mentor of mine, this guy who I've been using as a soundboard who's really smart, dude, was running LaPenca to the end at the time. He came to the opening, not at the restaurant.

I had told him about the concept like six or seven months ago, it was basically on the back of an app and I made this shit happen quick. I said, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this thing called the real deal where you get to choose your fish, you choose the sauce and you choose the sides. And then we're gonna do fish tacos

and we're gonna do fish sandwiches and we're gonna do all these cool fun, like sort of New England style fish things. But I'm gonna only use sustainable fish. I'm only gonna use fish that nobody fucking knows what they are because they don't have them, that there's no marketing behind them. The fish industry, the seafood industry is a marketing industry.

It's crazy, but it is. Tuna and salmon are like Nike and Apple. And it's just wild. It's wild how that happened. Tuna was garbage fish in the 60s, up until like the 60s. But anyway, so I designed this business, designed the restaurant, built the restaurant, and Jay came to opening night and he wrote me an email the next day. He was like, dude, you came to my office, you showed me the back of an app, and this idea.

You literally built the exact same thing you showed to me. I've never seen anybody do that before. The concept is going to resonate. I want to leave my job job and I really wanna work with you to scale this company. Now mind you, this guy's like 15 years older than me. He's running like a thousand restaurants nationally. And I could never be his boss.

Never, I don't have the audacity. You know what I mean? Like, I wanted to learn from him the whole way, the whole time. And I said, Jay, dude, I love you, man. I'm so grateful for all the stuff that you, all the wisdom that you've shared with me, I can't take on a partner right now. I just came out of a pretty tough situation.

Like, can I take on a partner? And he was pretty relentless. He did not want a no for me. So every couple of months, he would just say, dude, I'm telling you, because it was New York Magazine number one restaurant in New York for over six months. Wow.

I mean, the place was just on fire. Wow. And he, he's like, dude, I can raise $6 million. Come to the table with a lot of money. He's like, dude, I can raise six million dollars. Come to the table with a lot of money. And so I said, look, man, I can't be your boss. I would consider doing this, if you came in and the CEO, I take the presidency, we raise money, we scale the business to 30 million in revenue,

and then you buy me, you buy the majority of my equity so that I can go create another business. And we'll do that. And that's exactly what we did. Really agreed. Yep. Does that play out? Yep. 100%.

No shit to the tea. Wow. That's great. Yes. And so I sold very similar meat me, Valshap, for a very similar amount of money in 2019, November, 2019. Oh! Wow, very nice timing.

Very nice timing. Yeah, I think that away with that one. Yeah, I felt real guilty about that. But how did he survive during COVID? I mean, you too, I guess you should have said. You know, it was brutal. It was a brutal time, but there was only one casualty, actually two casual, one casualty through COVID for CMORs,

and then as things started to clear up a little bit, and you know, it was really interesting the dynamic of landlords in New York City. Like at first they were like hell no, no deals, nobody's getting deals, this is gonna blow over. I'm not, I'm not locking myself into this long-term deal with percentage of rant or percentage of sales, like no fucking way.

Like this is a flash in the pan in a few months, this is all gonna go away. No landlord negotiating. And when it started getting worse and worse and worse, and New York City shut down, like businesses were not able to conduct landlord started to have to think about what they were going to do because they got there were mortgages and they they got to pay bills to right like if they're not going to deal then everybody's out because there was there was no

you could you could not get evicted and and and all the good guy clauses and all the clauses that would essentially tie you to a deal were released. So you basically could just hand the keys back to the landlord as long as you were, as long as you like were pre-COVID up to a current with your rent, you can hand the keys back and call it. So landlord started to deal. A lot of those restaurants, including the meatball shop, although the meatball shop took more casualties.

The meatball shop took the original Perry Street and Chelsea shut. Landlords didn't want to deal and the restaurants weren't making enough cash to survive it. So Seymour's closed one and that was in like a market. It wasn't really a big one. And then as things started to clear up like towards the end of like seven, eight months ago, when things started to feel like they were getting better in New York, this landlord of the original meep, of the original CMORs said, I want all the money from the from the Rears. I want all of it. And we haven't been writing like, no, this, you know, we're not, this is what we're going to do going forward. And he was like, yeah, well, you know, I want it this is what we're gonna do going forward and he was like yeah

Well, you know I won it all and he wouldn't do a deal and we don't want to spend the money in court trying to fight him So we just close the restaurant But see more is this Corushing Kicking ass Meep all shop is is doing better now than it had ever and then it had then it was doing pre pre pandemic with six restaurants They're doing it with three, which is awesome. And so that's what we did. In 2019, I sold equity, and I started putting the pieces together for creatures of habit,

which is the business that I'm now the CEO of and running. So what's that all about? So, I mean, as I, you know, I didn't spend too much time talking about like my life and fitness and my life and wellness, but, you know, realistically, how I managed to really sink my teeth into a better life than what I was living was not only through sobriety and the people that helped along the way, but really, really diving into fitness and nutrition. Those are the two things that I became obsessed with. I wanted to see how far I could go.

And so, I did, like I said, I trained Moitai for 10, 12 years, something like that, competed, and smokers, and my gym put on, and then I started running marathons, and I became passionate about endurance training. And I just, you know, my whole entire, my diet was basically this meal plan that these guys wrote for me the whole way. I just like, I didn't change it. You know, I ate oatmeal with a bunch of stuff that I would add to it in the morning.

I ate chicken and broccoli and, you know, some more veggies for lunch. And I pretty much ate chicken salmon or or some sort of lean protein with veggies and and and some sort of starchy veggie for dinner and And I just stuck to this to this plan and I started meditating and I started this morning routine that really Set me up for success throughout the day And I wanted to open up a wellness restaurant in New York that had a vibe. There was no restaurants in New York City

that were healthy that didn't look smell and feel healthy. You know, like spot. Yeah, exactly, that's it, right? Like if you were gonna go, I mean, there's like sweet greens, which is a lunch spot, but like if you wanna go on a date and you're a healthy person and you don't wanna go to one of these awesome restaurants, you know you're going to have a delicious meal in, but you also know that it's a 7,000 calorie meal because the only way

they make that steak taste the way it tastes is because it is sitting in a bucket of butter. You know what I mean? I remember the first time I learned that when I saw it when back when I was a kitchen and saw them like literally taking like a half a cube of butter and set it up. I was like, oh, damn, that's why my steak tastes like that. Right, yeah, so like, you know, you order the steak and you're like, okay, this is like, for me, like I eat steak regularly, you know?

I eat a lot of meat. But when you're working with, you know, you don't need to have butter on your steak. You don't need to add butter on your steak, you don't need to add like, four tablespoons of olive oil to a piece of hellabit. You just don't, you don't need to like, baste it and all, like it just is not necessary. Anyway, I wanted to change that. I want it because now that sweet greens was around,

like it was very, very clear that people were lining up by the thousands to eat a healthy lunch, except there was nowhere for them to go that they wanted to hang out in for dinner, so they would either go to one of these spots where they're gonna have a delicious meal in a cool environment that just essentially annihilates what they had for lunch.

I wanted to create that place, I wanted to create that spot, but I didn't want to stamp out restaurant after restaurant. I wanted to use this restaurant as a marketing hub for a line of consumer packaged goods. Because I said, you know, in order to enjoy the food at a restaurant, it's a regional thing. You got to be in New York. You just got to be in New York. You got to be either living in New York or you got to visit New York in order to experience it. How can I touch more people? And how can I tell my story of wellness saved my life? Like how can I do it? What can I do? And so I said I'm going to do the CPG thing. I'm going to use the restaurant, create this awesome spot where people can come, have delicious food, we'll call out keto, paleo and plant-based menu items. You know, it'll be like everything that you want except just not using all the shit that restaurants tend to use to make it taste 17,000 times better than it needs to taste because steak with

salt and a little lime or lemon, fucking delicious, it's delicious. Like, you use the right ingredients, you know, like roasted sweet potatoes. Dude, you don't need to hit them with maple syrup and walnuts. Like, they're fucking sweet potatoes, man. It's like Andy. Yeah. Yeah. So I said, I'm going to create this awesome spot. And I found the restaurant lined up investors. And it was February 2020. And I was about to sign the deal in March of this awesome restaurant in Williamsburg, one level structure, eight skylights, brick walls, just beautiful 5,000 square foot spot. You know, we were going to the front was going to have a little retail area,

we were going to incubate products in the restaurant and just have this super cool like spot in the front where people can come and you know grab sauces, grab things that we were making in the restaurant and take them home. And then whatever people were walking away with, I was gonna put money behind NCBG. That's real smart. And you know. That's right before the shit hit the fan. Yeah.

So that didn't happen. So March 2020 comes as grumbling about this thing and I'm like, I call my investors and I'm like, it's not sound so good. I was putting a quarter million bucks on my money into it and I said, guys, look, we gotta pause this. I'm certainly not taking your money and I'm definitely not putting my money

into a brick and mortar business right now. And at this point, I was a business guy. I had built, scaled, and exited two successful businesses. And people believed me. They had faith in me. They believed me. And anyway, I watched my career as I knew it crash and burn, right? I watched, I watched and everybody thought everybody was done. Yeah. Every restaurant tour after two months of

this stuff where the cities were, the streets were desolate and landlords didn't want to make any deals. Yeah. Everybody was like, it's over. Is it? It's never gonna be the same, it's over. So I packed up our shit, my wife and I and our two kids, and we moved to our house upstate for, temporarily, we were like, all right, let's pack a few bags, we'll go upstate,

we'll hang out in the woods over the summer and we'll see what happens and we won't have to be locked into our apartment in the city, we'll be outside and that bag just got bigger and bigger and bigger until we emptied out the apartment. I rented it out on Airbnb for a year and sold it in a sold it last summer and we moved up state. I was on a run. I literally have, I mean, I, running is one of my absolute people asked,

like, where do you find inspiration? Like, what do you do for inspiration? And sometimes I wonder what that question is actually, like, what is the premise of that question? Like, what does that mean? Like, do people actually, you know, like, what do people do for inspiration? Do they, do they watch something? Do they, do they read something? Do people actually, you know, like what do people do for inspiration?

Do they do they watch something? Do they read something? Do they, do they go somewhere? What do they do? I found out now that my inspiration comes from running seven to 10 miles with no music, no headphones, just running with intention of trying to figure some shit out. Mm-hmm.

You keep the body meditating. Yeah. Yeah. You keep the body busy in the mind is open. It's open to be free. And so I came up with me, Paul shopped like that. I came up with sea mowers like that. All of the details and all those things I really developed on these runs. And so I was on a run upstate. It was beautiful summertime and it came to me. I said, I was going to draw a line to the restaurant, of course.

What can I do in CPG direct to consumer that feels authentic to me? And the first thing that popped into my mind was the first meal that saved my life. Oh, meal. I've been eating it every day since I got sober. Pretty much. I've added so many every day since I got sober. Pretty much. I've added so many things to it over the years that it's become way more than just oatmeal.

I'm not going to go head to head with Quaker, you know? But I can create a meal that is incredibly optimized, functional, convenient, easy to ship, dry product, long shelf life, sticky category, breakfast, you know. It just all kind of came to me on that run. I am going to figure out a way to package my oatmeal and my morning supplements into a pouch, make it taste real fucking good, and that's how I'm going to launch creatures of habit because that is my story. And and not only will I if I'm able to do this First of all, it would be something that I would purchase every day or I would I would have it every day because I do have it every day You know at that time I was 40

Best shape in my life. I was competing in and men's physique bodybuilding. I like I like nutrition is everything in that You know in that world. Yeah, it's obsessive. It's obsessive. And I was actually going to bring this up because I know you guys talk a lot about, you know, on the podcast, people ask lots of questions. And specifically when it comes to competition, you guys are like, look, it's a very, very slippery slope, right? Like if you're an obsessive person and you have any issue with food any food

insecurity any if you've ever had a food Addiction eating disorder whatever Trying to compete in bodybuilding of any kind is dangerous Right because you have to be so dialed in. And it, no matter how you look at it, you develop some level of eating disorder, right? Because especially after you compete, after being in the best shape ever,

you are shredded to pieces. Like people are like, oh, I wanna get shredded. I'm like, you do not wanna get shredded. Like there's a difference between being lean and in great shape and shredded, right? Shredded is like, it do not want to get treated. Like there's a difference between being lean and in great shape and shredded, right? Shredded is like, it's not fun getting. It's extreme. Yeah, but I really, at that point in my life,

every single gram mattered to me. I knew exactly what I was eating, when I was eating it, how I was eating it, and I said, this is like, this is what I fuel my system with every single day. It's the first meal in my day. How can I figure this out? You know, I'd never done anything like this before. I was like, this is what I fuel my system with every single day. It's the first meal of my day. How can I figure this out? I'd never done anything like this before.

I was like, what do I do? So I came home from that run. I said to Donna, babe, I'm going through your oatmeal business. And she was like, what? And I was like, and I told the story. And she was like, you know, honey, I don't, I don't know what to say to you outside of like you're crazy and I believe you. And so I put $200,000 into a bank account.

I called all the people that I developed relationships with over the years, you know, who I knew had some connection to CPG, to the wellness industry. I said, help, I need help, you know. And I think all those years of praying every morning and asking the universe for help and starting with humility and doing that has just given me the opportunity and the confidence to just have zero qualms about asking for help. When I think about if I could say, if I could say anything to my younger self, now it would be put your fucking hands down and ask for help.

Ask for as much help as you can ask for. Be shameless about asking for help. You empower people when you ask them for help. Isn't that funny? You empower people when you ask them for help. You know, ask for as much help as you can because I was so afraid of asking for help, I did not want to ask for help ever.

I wanted to do it all alone. I wanted to figure out how to get it done. Because I started those guys put that lesson in my path early on, get on your knees and ask for help, just gave me this confidence to ask for help along my journey as an entrepreneur. And so I started asking for help and I got connected with these guys out in LA, this natural formula lab and I said, look man, here's what I want to do. I want to mix gluten free oats, 30 grams of plant-based protein, pink and malay and salt, chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds,

omega-3 fatty acids, probiot, digestive enzymes, and vitamin D3 Into a pouch. And make it taste good. Yeah, and make it taste good. Which by the way, I'm blown away by that. Because I used to make a very similar oatmeal, and not quite that all that stuff, but it was really tough to make it taste well. Sounds like alchemy to me. Well, the truth is, is that so my oatmeal for years was basically oats, plant-based protein, chia seed,

flax seed, pumpkin seed, and pink and malayan salt. And then on the side, my four supplements every day was probiotic, digestive enzymes, vitamin D3, and my omega's. And that was my morning ritual, post workout, pretty much, is what I did that every day. And so I said, you know, if I can get all those things together, if I can get them all together, like, is it possible? And I said it to this guy at OBI,

and he said, he kinda chuckled. And I said, well, you know, I'm gonna do it. So either you're gonna do it, you're gonna be the guy to help me do it, or I'm gonna find somebody else. Like, you know, look, and he said, I wanna help you do it. And we just started the journey, man. Yeah, so you sent us a bunch of this before coming in.

What's the name, Pro-Atagonist? So it's called the protagonist. Pro-Atagonist. And I came up with that name on that run to, you know, Pro-Tinent Oats. The brand is called Creatures of Habit. But I spent a year working on it, man. Yeah, well, I mean, I'll be honest, so I have no qualms telling somebody

when the product sucks, but yours is great. It really is. I looked at the box, so I got the box. One of my guys brought it to me and I rolled my eyes because people give us shit all the time. So, all right, let's me look at this. I looked at the ingredients and says, oh, this is good, this looks like good stuff.

We tried it, it's good stuff. I think you might have another success on your hands. Well, I hope so, man. Today is actually the one year anniversary, as I'm sitting with you guys. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year.

Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year.

Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. Tell us about one year. We're building a community, man. You know, Mike, I want to ask you this because I've seen, I've been in the fitness and health space for over two decades and I've seen it transform people, not just physically, that's obvious, but kind of along the lines of what you experience with it.

What is it about fitness and health that transformed you? Was it the discipline or was it just that it was a sneaky way of going into personal growth without realizing it? No, man, I know exactly what it was. We have very little control over the things that happen on a day-to-day basis. What we put into our body and how we move our body, we actually have complete control over. And when you do that in a positive way, it is a win. Like a big win. For centuries, those were some of the biggest wins ever.

Oh yeah, that's true. What you eat and how you get through your day, those were the biggest wins. Today, there's all sorts of other wins, money and cars and whatever. But it's ingrained in us to win, to wanna win with nutrition and movement. Nobody ever talks about that, right?

When we were hunting and gathering, there was only one way to do it. You had to get out and the woods and hunt. The wind was what you killed, right? Then what you ate, that was a huge wind. We are wired to want to win that way. And for me, when I was down and out and not winning at all, the first thing that was introduced to me was the ability to win

nutritionally and through movement. And I believe that that's what I left into, man. That's how I changed my life. Because now I know that I can win every single day. I have the power to win every day. And I know that sounds a little woo-woo, but I believe it with every cell in my body that, you know, if you can control the controllables, it'll play out in every other area of your life. Discipline from fitness and the challenge me, you know, like, I love the challenge, I love, you know, I just made a huge transition from strength training and the spotty building thing that I've been doing for the last five years, four years, five years, to CrossFit.

And I'm like a pig and shit. I am- Oh yeah, someone like you would love that. Oh my god, man. I am like, I, and the coolest thing about it is that like all the sports that I've done and competed in to date are solo sports, right? Moitai, it's you, heavy bag, and how well you train is how well you're going to perform

against an opponent. But there's no team. I mean, there's friends, but there's no team. Long distance endurance running, certainly no team. It's you and the road, you know. Bodybuilding is probably the most isolated fitness experience one can have because it's really hard.

It's 24-7, too. Yeah, it's just, you're eating alone in essence, too. Yeah, you're sitting with somebody else, you're eating something different than everybody else. Like, when I first started the bodybuilding thing, my wife really just hated the fact that I was just so disciplined. She resented it. You know, she resented the fact that like,

I could be out at a barbecued spot And and have my fucking Tupor whipped me up in my bag And be like yeah, that looks so good So stepping into the CrossFit arena, it's a different ballgame. It's like all community And so I you know really what happened was my team about a month and a half ago, creatures of habit, we did a deep dive with our power users, power customers.

People that have supported our company from the day one, 30% of them are CrossFit athletes, CrossFiters. And so they took me inside like six weeks, seven weeks ago and they were like, dude, you're a pro bodybuilder. You've got, you've got marathons and all these things on your belt with competition, 30% of your customers are crossfitters. That's a massive percentage of customers that are doing the same thing. You're a competitive guy.

How are you not at Crossfit right now? You know, like, why are you not compete? How are you not at CrossFit right now? You know, like why are you not doing that? And that next day I walked into the closest CrossFit gym to me upstate called Railroad CrossFit. I met the owner Sean. I had no idea. I thought that they you know, I walked in and I basically was like, yeah, I want to compete in the games And they were and I had no idea what I was talking about, you know, of course. I got not really an optimist to jump in. Yeah. And they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And so they said, you know, can you come back in a few hours?

We'd like to sit down and interview you. And I was like, interview me. What is, what am I walking into here? And I'm so grateful that that's how they conduct. Because they sat down for, I guess sat down me for an hour and a half Ask me all these questions about my life and why I'm doing this and all this stuff and they were like look man you know The culture and the community of this place is what makes it awesome and

If all you want to do is Throw you know sandbags and kettlebells and barbells around and compete, there's a guy down the street. I would happily send you to me. You should mean of anyway. But he was like, if you want to actually be a part of the community and have a really good time and challenge yourself, this is the place for you. And they said, after talking to me, he was like, I don't know if it's going to be great for you

here because you've been doing all these sports where you're very competitive. And anyway, I went in there and I love it. I love the community aspect of it. I didn't think I would. I love it. I love doing a workout with a guy 15 years older than me, or 15 years younger than me,

and being able to do a same workout with somebody, except they're moving different weight or moving at a slower, faster pace. And I think it's awesome. So I'm gonna compete in the games now. I'm gonna compete in the games now. Give me a couple of years. No, but I definitely, I love the CrossFit.

Did you completely abandon the idea of doing the third restaurant concept? I mean, are you considering still, obviously not the pandemic? You know, I mean, I think for me now being out of the restaurant business for the last two years, for the first time in my life, I've been working in restaurants as a technician and then ultimately as a business owner for the last 28 years, 27 years before, you know, 2019. I have breakfast and dinner with my family every day. Every day, I do not miss it.

Yeah, restaurant clock. Demanding, demanding. I am at home at six o'clock every single day with my family having dinner with my boys. We go over there, rose thrown in their bud for the day. Like I will never, ever give that ever again. That's great. So, you know, CPG game is extremely difficult and the margins are very slim. Are you at a one year now? Are you out of the red yet?

No. No, we probably, I, you know, profitability in this, I mean, I've learned so much over the last year and a half, two years in this new industry. Profitability is where I've got my crosshairs are right sitting on profitability. That is my priority as a business owner because it's so rare to see profitability in the CPG game. You just keep raising and raising and hope that your sales and revenue are strong enough that some big conglomerate wants to come around and scoop you up. I know, however, that profitability is what defines a healthy business.

You know, like in the restaurant business, if you are not profitable, you're done. It's just that's, you know, that's just how it goes. And so, you know, no, we're not profitable yet. Hopefully, you know, we will be, we did 50% better than we projected in our first 12 months, which I'm proud to say. Right, you. And, you know, we have a strong, really bright future ahead. We got some great people involved with the company. People love the product, you know, we actually are, and I'm constantly iterating the product.

You know, this is not, this is like, this is a full, complete meal. You know, you got 40 grams of carbohydrates, 30 grams of protein, and anywhere between nine and 12 grams of fat per serving, 350 calories, made in two minutes, you could take it everywhere and anywhere with you. I mean, I've got, I always have them in my bag because I'm like, I, you know, it's delicious and I don't want to sacrifice an unhealthy meal. So if I'm traveling and, you know, I'm traveling and I'm in a hotel and there's nothing around.

You get a microwave instead. That's it. Boom, easy. And so there will be more products over time. I'm in the habit business now. I'm not in the, I really don't look at it as a nutrition business. I look at it as really like I'm going to create habits that are easily implementable for people to live better versions of their lives.

And so, you know, that's gonna come with some sleep stuff and it's gonna come with some snack stuff over time. But, you know, this business is giving me the opportunity to tell my story that like you never know the catalyst to change. You never know what it's gonna be. Yeah. Oakmeal happened to be part of mine. It just did. And I know it's oatmeal story I've ever heard. Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, it's, it's, it's, but, but at the end of the day, like authenticity is not duplicable, right? Like it is just not. And so if you've got a story to tell, and it's real,

and you have you are you you believe it? You you you're you know, I think entrepreneurs, the good ones are good storytellers. I mean, that's like it, you know, like there's business of business is storytelling and relationships and the foundation of relationships is trust. And so if you could do those things, right, if you could telegrade story, develop relationships and then have people trust you, you could sell, you could sell, you know, shoelaces to Nike, you know what I mean?

Like it's just you, there's like that, that is it. And so I've never really been scared to take a risk on doing something that I believe with every cell in my body and the businesses that I've launched to date have all been businesses that I, that are like part of my DNA, like they are me, right? Like I could stand in front of anybody and tell you the story of Meatball Shop, can tell you the story of Seymour's,

I can tell you the story of creatures of habit because it is as real as it gets. And I think that resonates. Did I read that you're in the real estate game too? I'm not in the real estate, I mean, I've done real estate deals. Yeah, but real estate deals have actually been super successful. For me, I'm not in a ton of them, but. I thought I read that you had quite a few.

No, no, I mean, I did, you know, in the real estate decisions that I've made, I've done pretty well, but yeah, no. I would love eventually to get into the real estate arena. And then the two restaurants you still are getting royalties basically from the two restaurant chains. No royalties. So I just sit on the board, I own a piece of equity. Oh, so there's no passive income coming from that? No. But, you know, the goal is, right? The goal me is is that the CEOs of those two companies

Continue to build them to the point where they get acquired and me owning 9% of you know those two companies each Will be another awesome payday Yeah, you know, well good deal great great great podcast Mike. Thanks. That was a good time I think for coming on I appreciate it. Thank you guys for having me. I didn't know we'd get as deep as we did. I feel like I just got the best therapy session of all life. I'm just like all brothers now. Really enjoyed it.

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