Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 1942: Lose Fat, Perform Better & Live Forever With Jason Phillips

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Jason Phillips about how eating for aesthetics, performance and longevity differ. The foundation that NCI has built its certification on. (3:10) What promotes the fitness extremes? (7:00) The important factor of quality of life and understanding the journey. (14:07) The different seasons in achieving your goals. (21:45) Jason’s hierarchy of periodization. (25:21) The delicate balance of these seasons in life. (33:19) How the severity of pain dictates the speed of action. (38:06) Seasons are defined by the end result. (42:39) Self-identity and athlete mindset. (46:30) How to bridge the knowledge and facilitate application. (55:17) The pursuit of fitness for mental/professional growth. (1:02:45) Jason’s current state of life. (1:07:25) Why are the coaches at NCI so loyal? (1:09:54) Related Links/Products Mentioned Mind Pump x NCI Giveaway Visit NutriSense for the exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Code MINDPUMP at checkout** November Promotion: MAPS OCR or MAPS Cardio HALF OFF! **Promo code NOVEMBER50 at checkout** Charts of Body Fat Percentage by Gender and Age New Study: NFL players die 7 years earlier than MLB players From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life – Book by Arthur C. Brooks The Almanack of Naval Ravikant: A Guide to Wealth and Happiness Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Jason Phillips (@jasonphillipsisnutrition) Instagram Max Lugavere (@maxlugavere5) Instagram Ben Greenfield (@bengreenfieldfitness) Instagram DK Metcalf (@dk14) Instagram James Piot (@jamespiot1) Twitter Saquon Barkley (@saquon) Instagram Arthur Brooks (@arthurcbrooks) Instagram James Krause (@thejameskrause) Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the world's number one fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pup, right in today's episode. We had Jason Phillips on the show. We talked about how the body adapts, what is needed for fat loss, what is needed to perform better, for longevity,

and how they can sometimes compete with each other. So this guy's like a wealth of knowledge. In fact, he's one of the founders of NCI, which is one of the top coaching certification courses. Now right now check this out. Him and his team have just revamped all the programs at the Nutritional Coaching Institute. And these are some of the results

for clients got in just 14 days. These are real now, I checked on them. 15 sales calls, seven new clients, $9,500 in revenue. And this is in two weeks, right? So that's crazy. These are trainers and coaches that worked with NCI to build their business. And this is what they're getting in a short period of time.

And that's because they teach them how to build their business. They're to celebrate the rebrand launch because they're rebranding this. They're going to give away $50,000 worth of scholarships, basically for free. Plus the winner is going to have an all expense paid trip to come visit us here at MindPump headquarters next time Jason comes on the show. So if you want to apply for this, you want to potentially win the scholarship, come visit us or just check NCI out why they're so successful at getting coaches to become successful,

go to mindpumpgiveaway.com. Again, it's mindpumpgiveaway.com. This episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors, NutriSense. So this is a continuous glucose monitor company, so they make a CGM, you put on your arm, and it reads your blood sugar levels in real time But even better this company has nutrition is that you work with that help you design about the most individualized diet You could possibly have because they can watch your blood sugar They can really tweak your diet to make it perfect for you more so than almost any other method. It's really remarkable Go check this company out.

Go to nutriscents.io. That's N-U-T-R-I-Sense.io. Forward slash, mind pump. And use the code mind pump, get yourself $30 off. We also have a sale going on this month. Maps OCR, that's an obstacle course racing workout program, is 50% off. And Maps cardio, this is an endurance building program,

is also 50% off. So if you're, this is an endurance building program, is also 50% off. So if you're interested in one of those programs or both, go to mapsfitinistproducts.com, just use the code November 50 for the 50% off discount. All right, here comes the show. Jason, welcome back. Did good to be there. Welcome.

What is your four time now in a show? I believe this is round four. Yeah, we appreciate you coming on the show. I think that's gonna be the award for the most. I was gonna say that's gotta be close to the record, maybe. Who else would have been on loan? Max is up there.

Max look over here. Yeah, we've had quite a few times. I think that's it. We like Max the, Max is awesome. Max is the man. Yeah, we're just talking about him. Yeah, really solid. Really nice guy, but we like you because you really do

a good job of talking to, you know, some of our most important listeners, which are coaches and trainers and people who are helping other people. In fact, so yesterday we're kind of on this text thread and talking about what do you want to talk about on today's episode? And you said basically why you can't lose fat,

improve your performance and live forever. Correct. So what do you mean by that? Yeah, it's actually, it's the foundation that we built our cert on, right? And it's really the foundation of when I went into the CrossFit space, it's what nobody wanted to hear. You know, I kind of stumbled on it on accident in the sense that when I did CrossFit, I was

still eating like a bodybuilder. And I'm like, well, surely I can look like a high-level cross-fitter, you know, ripped and whatever, and perform really well, and naturally I'm going to be healthy, so why won't I live longer? Except what happened was my performance tanked, I felt like shit, I started looking like shit, and if I kept feeling like that for a very long time, there's no chance I would be living to, you know, to 90 plus or into my hundreds. So I started investigating it and I started just literally thinking about everything I

learned in school and everything I understand in the industry at a high level and really went back to the foundation. I was like, all right, to lose weight or to look good, which is typically perceived as fat loss, right? Fat loss and muscle gain. To lose fat, we have to be in a calorie deficit, we have to eat adequate protein, ratio of carbs and fats independent on the individual.

Okay, so calorie deficit being the big driver there. Well, to perform better, very rarely are we going to recommend a calorie deficit, right? I mean, we might make the exception that if you have a low training age or if we're really trying to put you in an advantageous hormonal position temporarily, we could talk about it. But that's the exception, that's not the rule. The rule would be adequate calorie intake and or, you know, perhaps maybe a surplus.

And then to live forever, mild calorie deficit, but heavy emphasis on micronutrients, absence of carbohydrates, which we know is going to fuel performance. And it doesn't really matter if you have a six pack because to get to really low levels of body fat is highly stressful in the body, stress being the antithesis of longevity. And I was like, man, all three of these things are completely different except the average person in this world is trying to achieve all of them at the same time. And here's the fucked up part as an industry, we're kind of promoting that you can.

And I was like, so I always say in 2012, I was the most hated nutrition coach in CrossFit. And then in 2013, I was the most loved because I took the methods and I proved them to be true. And I was like, listen, if we stop chasing aesthetics in the heart of performance, you will perform better. And so the next year, I had several people on the podium of the games. Then I said, cool, in the off season, we can get you to wherever you want aesthetically,

assuming it aligns with what you need to be better the following year. My athletes look great in the off season. Well, we didn't really discuss longevity with crossfitters because I don't think anybody high level crossfitting is going to live forever. I just think that training three and four times a day and that modality is probably not advantageous to living forever. But the studies are pretty clear on what is going to create lots of longevity. And you know, guys like we were talking about Max and you know, Ben and those guys that really understand the biohacking world, but more so the longevity

world, they will tell you neither of those things matter. Yeah, it's funny because this is when people get really shocked when they hear about like, um, you know, Olympic athlete so and so or world record marathon runner or fitness enthusiast, you know, influencer, you know, dies of a heart attack or get sick. Everybody's like, oh my god, how's this possible? This person is like the best athlete in the world at their sport. And it's like, you know, the, when it comes to longevity, super extreme athletes have terrible longevity. Yeah.

You're sacrificing longevity for extreme athletic pursuits, which is crazy considering we tend to take our longevity advice from those very people. Where do you guys think the origin of that narrative is? Well, it's interesting, you know, when we look at the fitness industry as a whole, what typically promotes fitness is a body at low levels of body fat. And, you know, that person then talks about how they achieved it

and how it's the quote unquote picture of health. Except all of us in here have dieted to very low levels of body fat. We all understand how we felt, how we performed at those times. I mean, you did a show when you turned pro, how did you feel? Like looking back, the things that you did to get there. Do you think those are the pictures? No, I mean, there's a there's a reason why they call bodybuilders walking dead men.

Right. I mean, because you're right on the borderline of that when you get up on that stage. I mean, we were just talking about the evolution of it and the limits that are literally going to be pushed. I mean, we were making a joke that Arnold, back in the day, Mr. Olympia, he wouldn't even qualify to be a pro. I don't know if he'd qualify to be a pro in men's physique, let alone classic physical. He wouldn't win Mr. San Jose.

Absolutely not today. No, his conditioning has to be better, his size would have to get bigger. It just, it wouldn't work. And that's because the extremes of the drug use. Arnold's been open that he used drugs and clearly we're just willing to push different limits with different drugs now. But also, I mean, at that time, think back to it when you were a pro, you weren't bragging

about your lifts. You know, if social media was like monsters at then, like, you're not posting videos of yourself back squatting 500 pounds, deadlifting 600 pounds or anything like that. No, if anything, you're trying to make sure you don't get hurt, right? And so we look at, you know, then everyone's gonna listen to this and they're gonna be like, yeah, but like, what about the wide receiver

and the NFL that's super ripped? Great, he sprints a lot and I promise you, when he's going to practice, he's not looking in the mirror at how ripped his abs are. He is paid for one thing and that's to catch a lot of balls to get in the end zone to score touchdowns. Like, that's it.

Nobody gives a fuck how they look. Not only that, but like, you know, like DJ Meccalf represents 1%. Amen. Of the populations. No, listen, that's like 1% of the one. Yeah, right. He's 1% of the 1%ers, right? So he's just, he's a, he's not, and we love to do that, right?

We like to, to extrapolate that one example and be like, look, you know, I think that's where I was getting with that with you guys. I wanted, because my theory is that it really was when the supplement industry and nutrition really made its way into like athletics and the sports, because then we started to highlight these super athletes and pair them with a protein powder or pair them with a food that they ate. And it even is, I mean, if you go back far enough, I think actually companies that weren't even health companies figured out first. I think the McDonald's and the fast food places started pairing themselves with the Michael Jordan's the Charles

Chocolate Milk and a Hay Day there for that. Yeah, no, so is that how this got imprinted on society's mind of like they see they saw, Michael Jordan sitting down and having a big Mac and so therefore and he looks really lean and rip so therefore I can eat that or should eat that too. At the end of the day, everything's marketing, right? Like when when milk sales are down, what do you see on the TV? You see commercials and it reminds you that milk is vitamin D and it has calcium and it's like it promotes that it's going to cure cancer, you know, whatever, right?

It's whenever something needs to be promoted to sell something, they'll say virtually anything or they will try to create inferences that they don't openly state, but they make it out to be true. Yeah, well, there's also this and that is that there's the most effective lies are ones that have a little bit of truth in them.

Yeah. Because they'll take a little bit of truth and then they push it and turn it into a big fat lie. So, is there truth that if you took the average, deconditioned unhealthy person who eats a standard American diet, if you change things to improve their health, will they lose fat, will they perform better and will they live longer? Yes, they will do all of those things. But at some point you start to do the trade off.

And it's not the extremes. It's definitely not the extremes. Extreme, any of those that I just said, means you're taking away from the others. For example, the people that live the longest don't have the best extreme performance. And they definitely didn't walk around at 3% body fat, right? And the extreme fat loss experts didn't perform their best, for sure. And you also need to compare yourself to yourself. So yes, you could find someone at 4% body fat

who's going to outperform me at a higher body fat percentage. But look at their performance versus their performance. Them at 4% isn't going to perform as well as them at 11%. For example, I think what we're talking about in essence, and I love what you just said is relative versus absolute, right? And I think that the illustration I would always use to show this is a triangle.

And so we understand that if we start in the center, we can navigate towards any of the points. And that navigation towards one point is also a subsequent navigation away from other points. Does that mean that you aren't still close to those points? No, but the further you go towards any specific point, you are becoming a maximal distance away from other points. So the more we go towards extreme aesthetics,

let's just say like Mr. Olympia, the more we go towards that extreme, we are moving further and further away from the other points. So we're getting further and further away from our ability to perform. We're getting further and further away from our ability to live forever. The same would be true for performance.

The more we try to win the CrossFit Games, the less that we are eating to look our best, not saying by proxy that we don't look better, in some cases you might, because of the training volume and the Chloric expenditure, but we are also moving away from our affinity to live forever. And that's what people have to understand is it's a game of absolutes or relatives and which one are you navigating. And I love the point that, you know, in the beginning, this conversation probably doesn't

hold any weight because sometimes you're getting results in spite of what you're doing, not because of what you're doing, right? Like when I was anorexic, if I started to eat to look better, that would have been muscle gain. Well, if I start to go into a calorie, you know, just like a maintenance mode, if I got to maintenance, that was more calories than I was eating. By proxy, I'm probably going to perform better, and because I'm finally giving myself enough my nutrients, I'm probably going to be in a better health

status. Does that mean that I went to the extremes? No, but there was some slight improvement relatively. And we need to be careful when we also want to go back to, you know, you use the example of a professional athlete, I forgot his name, but you want to be careful looking at these anomalies. And they're anomalies because they don't represent not even close to the average person. It's like looking at Michael Phelps and saying, wow, if I swim, I'm going to have the leg length of someone that's five-nine and arm length of someone that's six foot seven, right?

Because that's Michael Phelps' body proportion. His ape index is insane. Right, but that's not what happened. What happened was he was born that way and then he took up swimming and then he's also hard worker and all that stuff. So you can't look at these anomalies and say, well, that's how I'm going to look if I train that particular way.

Well, that person probably looked like that. They're going to probably look better than you doing almost anything because they win the genetic lottery in that particular situation. So the extremes take away from the others is what you're saying. I actually completely agree. And the other thing that we want to throw in here, because I know some people listening are like, but I love to train this particular way. I love to eat

this particular way. There's also quality of life that I think we need to factor in. Yeah. Like if I told you, you would live 10 years longer than your normal expected life expectancy. However, in those last 10 years, you're going to be hooked up to machines and bed ridden, right? Would you like that trade? Most people say no. That's zero quality of life. I'm using extreme to illustrate what I'm about to say, but that is that quality of life is also something real important. So you could chase some of these things, but if you compromise, like for me, like for example, it's probably not smart to train super heavy anymore at this point

I'm 43 been working out forever But there's a certain value that I find in it that has nothing to do with my body has nothing to do definitely not with my joints because it hurts me But I do it because it increases my quality of life. And so there's that as well that I want to be sure we throw in there Yeah, you know, I think that as as we get deeper into the discussion There's two types of people that are listening, right? There's probably people that like health and fitness and are just listening to this for advice for themselves. And then of course, there's the trainers and coaches.

And if you're an individual that's just into health and fitness, you have to understand, okay, well, I want to lose fat today. How many times when you guys were trainers, when if you really got somebody to commit 12 weeks, 14 weeks, 16 weeks, 20 weeks, whatever it is, the further they get into the diet, we understand performance is going to be compromised. And we also understand, you know, at least biofeedback markers, maybe not overall health status, but biofeedback markers are also going to be compromised. And so we hear from them at the eight week marker, the 10 week

mark, man, like, just not as strong. Man, I don't have as much energy. My sex drive is going down. My sleep isn't as good. And I think that individuals, if you're pursuing fat loss at a high level, I think you have to be self aware enough to understand you can't have it all in that moment. That's the trade. There is.

And then as the coach, I really think that this understanding should be the foundation that you use when starting with your clients. Yes. I had a strong belief that, and I would actually draw a picture of a triangle for clients. And I would say, where in this triangle are your goals? And they would draw the, they draw a circle inside the triangle. And I would say, cool.

Now articulate to me what that means. And they would say, well, you know, I want to lose some fat and I want to, I want to perform better, but I really want to feel good. And then, say, well, you know, I want to lose some fat and I want to, I want to perform better, but I really want to feel good. And I'm like, okay, can I tell you what I see? And they're like, sure. And I'm like, well, what I see is you care most about losing fat, which means maybe in the journey you might get a little weaker

and at times you're okay with feeling less than optimal. Are we on the same page? And they're like, no, I don't wanna get weak. What a great way to present that, by the way, for all the coaches that are listening, I think that's such a powerful way to illustrate. Yeah. Because people don't, you're setting proper,

honest, truthful expectations. Yes. Well, and they don't know how to communicate that yet. Does any relationship that ends well, start without proper expectation? Right, never. And so why should fitness be any different? And so for us,

this is the setting of the expectations. This is foundational understanding of the journey that we're going on together. Do you teach all the coaches to teach that right now? This is literally the foundation that we built our love. Oh, I love that. And because again, when we, I need to illustrate this, what you're saying right now, so important to the coaches listening right now, this is a huge factor. Huge. Whether or not you're going to be achieve long-term success with a client or not. And if you do this right, you will also attain greater financial success as a result of it.

So I just want to emphasize, I hope people understand this. This could be one of the biggest determinants of your client success, which is the biggest determinant of your business success, right? I know we've had conversations around the entrepreneurial side of the success, which is the biggest determinant of your business success, right? I know we've had conversations around the entrepreneurial side of the business, which you certainly have to have understanding of, even that is second in nature to creating client results.

Because you can be the best marketer of the best sales person if you don't deliver on your promises, at some point you're the biggest fraud, right? And so you have to be able to create client results. And client results come from an understanding of the journey because if I'm starting you on a path to lose 100 pounds, in my head, I'm like, yeah, you're gonna get a little weaker, right? Unless you're training ages nothing, but you know, if you're trained in your condition, you're gonna get a little weaker and you're

not gonna feel the best all the time. That's okay. And so, but if I don't articulate that to you, and you have different expectations, we're playing two completely different games. And so when you come to me and you're pissed off that you're weaker and that you feel bad and I'm like, well, no shit. Well now all of a sudden, us being on different pages causes massive strain on the relationship. And so this literally becomes the start point, but that brings up a whole another question, right? Which is, well, what if my client does want to know?

And you know, you're a coach that you're job. It is. And I actually think that there's, I always live by the quote, you can have it all, you just can't have it all at the same time. And I think that really good coaches. And by the way, this goes into building your business, really good coaches help clients understand that you just have to periodize the seasons of your results. Because I think all of us in here, at some point in our careers have chased aesthetics, we've chased performance, and we've chased longevity. all of us in here, at some point in our careers, have chased aesthetics. We've chased performance and we've chased longevity. None of us in here, because of the understanding

that we have, have chased them all concurrently. And so the real question becomes, is how do we start to do that? And I think there's great answers to that as well. There's two things I want to add to this. One is, if you're a coach listening and you know, you kind of briefs through this, you said you create seasons. That also presents to you as a coach a wonderful planning and even sales opportunity. And so now you by the way as trainers when I say sales don't shut your ears. I'm talking about producing producing results for your clients. Part of producing results for your clients is you have to because they don't know they're they're hiring you for a reason. They really don't know what it's going to look like. And if I can show them specifically, season one, aesthetics, season two,

I'm gonna break it down very basic. Season one, aesthetics, season two, performance, season three, and then we're gonna focus on longevity. Now they see the plan, and oh, by the way, each season is six weeks long, 10 weeks long, whatever, that also works very well for me as a coach with my business, because now instead of saying, hey, you're gonna work with me for 30 weeks. Well, what does that mean? Now they're like, oh, I see exactly what that all looks like.

So that's number one. Number two, I understand what happens with trainer, especially new trainers and new coaches, is they want to promise everything to the person because they think it's gonna get, it's gonna make them more likely to hire them or more excited. The truth is, and I remember learning this as a new trainer. When I was dead honest with a client, they say, I wanna lose 30 pounds, when you wanna do it by, I wanna lose it in 60 days, and I'd say, that's probably not gonna happen in 60 days.

When I was honest with people, I lost zero clients. In fact, what happened is I got more clients because I was being honest and truthful with them. It wasn't like they said to me, oh, I can't do this in a few days, I'm outta here. They said, well, why can't I? And what's going on? And then they were very grateful

that we had a very honest discussion. I always painted realistic expectations. And then what I tried to do is set myself up to have them exceed the things that I talked about. So I said, look, you're probably only gonna lose three pounds in the first 60 days because we're doing this, this and this. And then they lose six pounds.

They're like, holy cow, this is amazing. But if I told them I was gonna lose 20 pounds, well first 60 days because we're doing this, this, and this. And then the lose six pounds are like, holy cow, this is amazing. But if I tell them I was gonna lose 20 pounds, well, now they're disappointed. Yeah, and then you also start using tactics that you're not on board with, and that becomes a whole other ethical dilemma. I mean, at the end of the day,

I think we can all agree from the business side, the truth is the best sales person. Yes. And every coach and trainer should understand that. By the way, that all of a sudden brings down the stigma of sales. Because like you said, I'm gonna say sales, all of a sudden, coach and trainer should understand that. By the way, all of a sudden brings down the stigma of sales. Because like you said, right, I'm gonna say sales, all of a sudden,

coach and trainers, they cover their ears, they pick the fuck out. And it's like, listen, we're not talking sales, we're talking truth. And by the way, if you look that sales as education of the truth, you would probably make more sales, which is completely ironic in and of itself.

I like what you said though about the different seasons. And, you know, like I said, this whole notion is really the foundation of NCI. The follow-up to that is, well, how do we help somebody do all of them? Because I think that let's take aesthetics and let's take getting on a bodybuilding stage as an example. We know when you went on stage,

when you came off stage, you could not immediately go into the pursuit of performance or longevity. Yeah, of course not. Right. There's a season that is recovery, right? There's a time where you need to, if you use drugs, you need to recover from the drug abuse, right?

There's a time that if you didn't use drugs, you need to let, you know, you need to reverse diet or recover diet and get back to maintenance so that we can recover the hormone, you know, decrements that happen, we can feel better, we can enjoy life a little bit. At that point, we need to understand like, what is the internal machinery that we have and what is, what are we actually able to create, either in the performance continuum or in the longevity continuum? Is it was our gut health compromised? Was, you know, are we strong?

Are we, are we metabolically, you know, have we created enough, what's the word I'm looking for, increasing your metabolic capacity? Have we done that enough to actually be able to put on weight or to gain enough strength or perform at a high level? So I started looking at athletes and I was like, well, how do they get better every year, right? Using the DK Metcalf example, how does DK get stronger? How does he get faster? How does he get better at running routes? How does he get better at running routes? How does he become an overall better player? Well, he doesn't play football all year.

So he doesn't do his sport all year, right? He recovers from the season. And he also has an off season where he tries to get stronger, he tries to acquire more skills, and then there's a period of time that he bridges that to playing the game. And I was like, well, if he's doing that, why isn't every human doing that in the pursuit of their goals? And so what we said is we're like, well, cool, there's three distinct sets of goals. There's aesthetics, there's performance, there's longevity. But if we periodize those goals, now all of a sudden you can start to stack them and we can chase multiple things.

So if we chase aesthetics, we understand calorie deficit to the extreme significantly low levels of body fat. That's what we would call season or the active pursuit of goals. Immediately after that, everybody understands there needs to be a postseason or a recovery season. We quantify that as can we get back to normal, homeostasis, right? A homeostatic balance defines a normal person. Cool. Well, then there's an off season.

What are we doing to improve our chances of achieving our next goal? Whether that's another aesthetic goal, whether that's another performance related goal or longevity related goal. And then there's a preseason which is am I setting myself up to achieve this goal maximally? So if it's performance, are we doing sports-specific work? If it's aesthetics, am I prepared for the rigors of the diet? Have I set my social life up accordingly? Have I had the conversations with my significant other?

Or if it's like longevity, it's, have I truly created the foundation? Do I understand what foods work for me? Have I done the necessary testing to ensure that the journey I'm going on is going to work with me? But every single goal has a periodization, right? And so, how you laid out like what I would consider the macro-periodizations, the performance is the aesthetics, like the longevity, and inside of those there's micro

periodizations. Oh yeah. Again, as a coach, if you're breaking this down to your client, not only are you getting them on board to the long haul, you're sharing with them the reasons that nothing else has worked, because they've gone from season, like in season to in season to in season, which we know, every in season is a navigation away from set point, right? Calorie deficit is further and further away. There's adaptations that are happening internally, and the more and more we become adapted, we know we can't create future adaptation,

which is why nobody's seeing results. Yeah, now when somebody is wanting all three of these, is there a natural flow for you that you would take them through this journey? Meaning like when I'm hearing you go and I'm thinking about to my process of like competing. And then let's say I also in my triangle, I wanted performance, and you stated it perfect.

I was like obviously getting right off stage, going into plyometric work and training like an athlete would be, you're gonna get hurt. Yeah, it'd be a work and training like an athlete would be- You're gonna get hurt. Yeah, it'd be a stupid idea, right? It would be totally irresponsible. So what comes to mind for me logically is almost like the pursuit of longevity or homeostasis or health first

and then transitioning over to, is there a common flow that you would say that you run into? Yeah, I think that everybody can understand that you're going to operate most efficiently from a high foundational level of health. And so I think that if you have gut health issues, if you have hormonal issues, it stands to reason we should tackle or at least create

a solid base of longevity for you. Does that mean that I think you should navigate towards the extreme of longevity where you're eating low carb, where you're sleeping in a fucking cave and you're taking long walks on the beach? No, I don't think that you need to do that. But do I think that elements of longevity, where you're eating low-car, where you're sleeping in a fucking cave and you're taking long walks on the beach. No, I don't think that you need to do that. But do I think that elements of that, right?

Do I think you should get quality sleep? Do I think you should work on gut, work on hormones, work on controlling your stress? Absolutely. From there, I would say, like, let's assess you, the individual. Most people, we understand this in America, are overweight or obese.

And so losing fat will help the body function more efficiently. I think that we've seen studies for men, most bodies function efficiently in the 8 to 10 percent body fat range. So they're going to be able to perform better or live longer from a slightly lower body fat percentage, not saying again, we're going to the extremes, we don't need to die at you down to 6 percent or 4 percent 4% like Mr. Olympia levels, but losing a little bit at that stage, then I think we would tackle performance.

So that would kind of be my hierarchy. It's very relative to the individual, their metabolic history, their long-term goals chronologically, how old are they, or biologically. Yeah, how much damage I did in the competing, would dictate how long I'm pursuing that longevity goal, right? Say, let's say I did it,

let's say I did take copious amounts of steroids, let's say I fucked my gut health up, let's say my stress was like crazy. Obviously, the period that we are focused on, quote unquote longevity after that would probably be longer than somebody who actually did very good weight management, didn't have to reduce their body fat percentage that much,

didn't naturally, didn't have any gut issues, so that transition would look obviously much good. If you took me today, I'm 38 year old, primarily an entrepreneur, right, that's how I spend the most of my days. I go to the gym three times a week now, mostly for maintenance, yeah, and I golf a ton. Yeah.

But super high stress lifestyle, I was telling Katrina, I was home 18 hours in the month of July, literally in my home state for 18 hours. And so there's a significant amount of stress on me, but I also walk around it seven to eight percent body fat. I'm naturally lean, formerly eating disorder, I'm mentally fucked, so I will never allow myself to gain a significant amount of body fat. It just is what it is.

And I've learned to accept that. So I will always function less than optimally. I'm okay with that. I've made peace accept that. So I will always function less than optimally. I'm okay with that. I've made peace with that. But if we were to look at me and we were to periodize, I would say we should focus on longevity. We should probably fix my gut. I currently have a stomach ulcer. We should solve that. My hormones are in check. I'm on TRT. I've been on since I was 19 and anorexic. And we should get my sleep habits better. We should control my stress. At that point, that foundational level of health

will allow me to probably maximize the performance I'm trying to do, which is I'm trying to become more explosively strong, I'm trying to become more mobile, I'm trying to hit a golf ball further and more consistently so that I can make it at a high level in term pro. Yeah, no, there's definitely crossovers in all of these, but I think the confusion comes from the examples that we get for like longevity and

Health are the extreme like shredded, you know bodies Now make no mistake health does look good, right? So Being relatively lean is usually a reflection of being somewhat healthier, at least healthier than if you were obese. Having longevity means you probably look healthier as well and you're probably going to perform better than if you didn't have good longevity. But really it's about these extremes. And I like what you're saying about periodization because if you're going to pursue all three of these in some way, shape or form, or let's just put it generally, if you're going to

have a fitness and health lifestyle for the rest of your life, or if that's your goal, the body tends to adapt best when you give it a bit of a focus, but you don't stay on that focus for too long. For example, if my goal is maximal strength, I know at some point I'm gonna start feeling at my joints, I know at some point my mobility's gonna suffer, I'm gonna start losing mobility

and maybe different planes of motion, especially if my max strength that I'm focusing on is on specific lifts, for example, right? If it's about performance and let's say for me performance is how fast I can run a marathon. At some point I'm going to start getting detrimental effects by pursuing that, right? When it comes to longevity, which longevity is typically about moderation and balance and almost everything. I'm putting it loosely. But if I push that for too long, at some point, I'm gonna maybe lose quality of life

because that can be kind of boring. It's socially isolated. Maybe socially isolated, like everybody's watching TV at night downstairs and I'm up here. I'm up here. In the dark, yeah. So there's this product. Which is not a great predictor of long-term health, right?

Or is it good for aesthetics? Right. So, period of, you know, going into these seasons is great because, A, your body adapts better that way. And they, and if you time it right, they actually feed into each other. And B, and I think this is most important,

we talk about this on the show all the time. It's the most fun. It's the most fun. If you plan on doing something for the rest of your life, you better find a way to make it enjoyable. Well, let's look at human behavior. The hardest thing to do as a coach and as a trainer is get somebody to stick to a plan long term. 100%. And so I also love this notion because you can set very short term goals.

Yes. Right. If we start looking at the micro-paradizations and the macros, we're not asking you to really make a commitment for a very long time. We're also setting very tangible end dates and very end goals. So in the season, we're trying to get to a goal. Cool. Did we achieve the goal? Yes or no?

People fucking love that. In the off season, hey man, we're recreation foundational level of health for men. You know, as your sex drive super high again, awesome. Guys like that. You know, for the ladies, like, are you not moody all the time? Like they know that. You know, in the off season, can we get you stronger? Can we get you eating more food?

There's again a tangible goal. And then when we start adding in sports-specific or activity-specific work, you start to feel really good, because you're like, okay, I'm really ready to begin this pursuit again. And so you're taking the human psychological aspect, you're applying it, and you're understanding

people don't like monster-long-term goals. I mean, we're having entrepreneurial conversation before this, if we're like, hey, man goals. I mean, we're having entrepreneurial conversation before this. If we're like, hey, man, all of us are trying to achieve a hundred million dollars in net worth. That's a really big number. And if we set out every day and we're deploying against a hundred million, we're probably

going to get bored at some point. Because you got to make the first million. And so it's like, cool, let's make the first million. Let's figure out how to turn one to 10, 10 to 50, 50 to 80, 80 to 100. And it's like those checkpoints are what keep it going. I don't know about you, dude, when you were doing cardio for a year or a thing, whenever I did cardio, I feel like just get to 10 minutes.

Just get to 10 minutes. 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10, I'm like, all right, get to 18, okay, 19. And then I'm playing these micro games, it's dead. Well, I think I, my hack for cardio in the competitive world, I thought my big hack was, I actually broke it, I think I, my hack for cardio in the competitive world, I thought my big hack was I actually broke it into steps because I thought our bouts of cardio was too crazy for me that I was just like, you know what I'll do is I'll look at my entire plan and go, oh,

up until season and time, right, for me competing, I averaged 6,000 steps a day. Okay. So I'm going to start with walking 8,000, you know, consistently for a week. Okay, then 10,000. Like, and I actually didn't, I did not really do like our bouts on the cardio until like the final two weeks because I saw how torturous that was for people. It's just small checkpoints though, they get you to that goal. Jason, for you, because you said something interesting about how you'll never really let your body fat get past a certain point, just because of your own personal struggles. How do you balance aesthetics with the other with the other two Performance and because I have my own issues with certain things

Mm-hmm, and I have found that I have to balance it with the other stuff because at some point the side effects of me Pursuing the same thing all the time really starts to backfire. Yeah, what would that look like for you? How do you balance it out? Yeah, it's really a good question. I understand I don't think longevity is ever something I'm going to be the best at. I have a little bit more of a proclivity towards it. Now that I have a daughter and she's getting older and she's attached to me.

Yeah, man, having a four year old daughter is like I want to live longer. So I do try to be better. That being said, it's a mental battle every single day. I know that when I'm closer to 9% or 10% body fat, I feel my best. I also know when I'm closer to 9% body fat, I look in the mirror and I hate myself.

And that's just the mental shit from when I was 19 and being super open about it. You still struggle that? I still do, man. Even at 9% really? 38 years old, bro. You're still critical yourself. I thought, wow.

I mean, super transparent. I looked in the mirror this morning and I'm like, man, I got more fat on my size than I need to have. And dude, I'm fucking ripped right now. You are ripped right now. And it's like, wow. Like if somebody saw a picture, they'd be like, dude, you're dieting for something.

And I'm not. This is just how I walk around and, you know, factually we ate at STK last night and I went to the room and had two desserts. But I've also learned how can I eat like that and maintain this. And so it's a really fucked up vicious cycle. You know what the difference is probably,

because I have, I've had body images, she's myself. The difference now is probably you're aware of it. Whereas before tons of denial, tons of denial, tons of denial. Yes. So there isn't improvement. I'm way more open. Good, I want people to know right now, it's like, oh my God, I'll never get over this.

Well, no, you do through awareness. It's a process. I tell everyone, you mean, I interact, he has an interaction inervosa, right? I don't know to be, you know, factually, is it a nervous system disorder, but I believe it is. And the fact that it's hardwired in your brain,

I don't think ever changes. I think that you learn how to channel it a little bit better. And I'm okay with that. Like, so to answer the original question, though, I don't think longevity will ever be my thing. I also recognize now that if I wanted to be in a high level sport that requires super high athletic output, football, basketball, CrossFit, anything, I probably wouldn't be the best

because I wouldn't be able to bring myself to eat enough. Fortunately, I happen to be really good at golf and that doesn't require as much output. But I'll say, I mean, being on TRT and eating in a, you know, most of the time in a deficit has not been great for overall inflammation. The fact that I'm overstressed and probably don't sleep enough because of my lifestyle and entrepreneurial pursuits

doesn't help focus. And so my mobility suffers a little bit. My ability to concentrate at a high level suffers a little bit. And I'm aware of that when I'm on the golf course. And so there will come a day where I need to make a decision. The best line ever is we sponsor a kid named James Piot on the lift tour right now. And we're out and I'm playing the pro-amp

with him in Chicago a couple of weeks ago and he's talking about wanting to put on some size this off season and how he likes McDonald's and Burger King. And I was like, well, I'm like, we ain't trying to put on shitty size and he looks, I mean, he goes, I don't fucking care. He goes six packs, don't win golf tournaments. And I was like, you know what, man, like,

great statement, but like, I don't know, I mean, you said you had body image issues, I could never make that statement. Yeah. Because immediately I'm like, yeah, but who the fuck wants to not have a six back? Like, that was the first statement I had in my head. And I'm like, man, like, I wish I could have that, you know, so Bryson De Shambot put on all that weight and he didn't put on great weight. And, you know, I was, I literally, I was just talking with Bryson and like two weeks ago,

and I'm actually getting ready, I was just talking with Bryson. And like two weeks ago, I'm actually getting ready to start working with him. And he is suffering effects from trying to pursue multiple sets of goals the same time. And our whole conversation actually went back to what we're talking about today. It seems like, hey man, I just started whole 30 to fix my gut health.

Cool. Hey man, I'm also really fucking tired all the time. Hey man, I don't sleep really well. And I'm like, well, you're on a diet for longevity. It's a fixed God-health, right? foundational issues. He's like, yeah, and I'm like losing way too much weight. Okay, well, your aesthetics are suffering, right?

And I'm really tired all the time. God, your performance is suffering. So you're eating for one goal, but you're telling me, you're asking me, how can I fix all three at the same time? And I kept reminding him the simple truth is we can't. And to go back to your question, Adam, stacking those, I was like, let's address the foundational shit and accept the fact that you're not gonna look

the way you wanna look right away. And you're not going to jack performance through the roof right away. But once we've done that, let's attack performance while we're still in the golf season, golf season ends another two months for him. Then in the off season, let's worry about the body shit. So I wanna stay here since you were vulnerable enough

to admit that you still have a hard time with this, because I think there's a lot of people that can relate to this. When you, and knowing what you know, that you, you know, that you, that I'm probably never gonna be the longevity guy, but yet you recognize when there's things in your life that are suffering sleep stress whatever these What does it look like even though you've already accepted that you're you're not gonna be the you know meditation guru walk guy

You know what what what do you what are things that you start doing in your life or what kind of changes when you when those things Start to like really rear its head on you and you go like, okay, I need to fucking, I know I've accepted I'm not going to be that guy completely, but I need to adopt some of my own philosophy here. What does that look like? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's pretty universal truth that the severity of pain dictates the speed of action. And so the more the deeper I get into the rabbit hole, the further I get away from longevity, the faster I will take action on fixing those things.

I just don't think I implement permanent solutions to give you an example. You do it enough to feel better. Exactly. I put a bandaid on it. It's better, the bleeding stops, the wound heals a little bit, right? But it's still susceptible to opening again.

And so, I'm sitting here today and I have a stomach ulcer from all the stress in my life. Have I gone out and supplemented the way I know how? Nope, have I 100% fixed my diet? Nope, you know what I do? I find like a diet seven up everywhere I go. And like, I make my stomach feel better most days, right? I understand now I've been dealing with it

for almost 45 days. So I am actively undertaking an approach where I'm decreasing, you know decreasing bacteria in my gut and then aggressively overfeeding to kill it off. Or I'm killing it off and then I'm building new quality bacteria. They test you for age, Pylori, I'm assuming. I haven't gone to the doctor for it. It's self-diagnosed, but trust me, all the symptoms, it's there.

It could have been high levels. It would be easy fix by the way. Yeah, and I very well could. But again, the pain hasn't been high enough for me to go to a fucking doctor and get tested. I also was home 18 hours for a month, right? And that's just like where I'm at in my life. And, you know, so I also think that there's seasons of life too. You know, Steve and I were talking about this

on the way here, those people don't know Steve's the VP of my company. And we were talking about that on the way here this morning. And I was like, man, like, do you, do you ever just like look around and feel like, man, do you ever just look around and feel like man, like that person, they may not achieve some of the things we've achieved, but man, look at what they're doing. He's like, you'll get there one day.

And I was like, I don't know if I will. And he's like, no, like we're just in a season right now. And I think that there are seasons of life. And so right now, I'm okay with this season being more about performance, right, in the business side. I have a lot going on in NCI's growing rapidly. We need to hire more. Every time I go, it's like twice as big.

Every time I go speak at the event. The next event you guys are coming to in April, literally double what? Last year we had a little over 500 people were slated to have a little over a thousand people next April. It's awesome. It's amazing. It's cool. It's a rocket ship. You know, I do want to say this. I've said this before on the show. We've all said this on the show that really good coaches

and trainers always weigh better with their clients than they are with themselves. Amen. And I think part of it is what makes you such, part of what makes you a good coach and a good trainer. There's a lot of things. But part of it is understanding the challenge. Yes.

Understanding the challenges that people have, having empathy, being honest, being able to work with them, and it's much easier to understand those challenges when you yourself have to go through them and do them yourself. That being said, I wanted to ask you then, in terms of like the coaching aspect of it and talking about these three different sort of directions that potentially you're kind of presenting to your client. Like how would you then articulate, you know, that psychological shift and like what to expect and like between each one of those different points. Yeah, I think you have to really define what the points are really quick

before I touch on that. I think that it's also south to your point. I think that coach, the best coach and trainers have probably been through what they're asking their clients to do, which also that coach, the best coach and trainers have probably been through what they're asking their clients to do, which also makes me a very bad coach to coach longevity. Like dead serious, right? Like rest in peace to my co-founder Travis Zipper, right? You know, we lost him last year.

And he was a phenomenal longevity coach. And ironically, like when him and I met, he was pursuing aesthetics and performance. I explained to him the triangle and he really bought in. He just shifted his whole life to longevity. Well, if you were one of his clients in his last two years on earth, he was the best in the world at that, which is crazy, right? He pursued himself.

He let it, it was super dope. But just to answer the question, I think that each season is defined by something, right? And so whenever I teach this, I ask people like, what is season, in season active pursuit goals? Like, what is that defined by? And the reality is it's defined by the end result, the performance.

And so if we're trying to get you ready for a stage, it's defined by what do you look like on stage. Our journey is not over until you hit the stage until we peak correctly until you feel like you hit your best, the end, right? And so you know that's what we're after. The next thing I'm going to give you when we're in postseason is I'm trying to get you back to a homeocytic balance.

Now I'm not going to make everybody get lab tests. If you're on steroids, I probably would, but for most people, we're going to use biofeed back. So it's a little bit subjective, but we have objective data if we've worked together for more than a year, or you have previously objective data about things you were able to do, ways that you felt, etc. We can look back at data. So we're trying to get all of those things together. The hardest one I would say is the off season, because I tell people this is defined by strength and skill acquisition. And so how much strength can you acquire, how many skills can you acquire, how do you tangibly

define that? We don't know what your upper limit is, we don't know what your ceiling is as a human being. And so sometimes people are complacent, sometimes they're lazy, or you get very driven individuals. I look at a Sequan Barclay, who I think I just saw a video of him squatting almost 700 pounds.

And in my head, I'm like, I know that wasn't the giant strength coach because in the NFL, most strength coaches are glorified, like injury preventors. So I'm like, this had to be an independent strength coach, but I'm like, this guy clearly has a high upper limit. He has a very strong proclivity towards performance. And the off season, amazing. He would be a great person to coach. Then in the preseason, you're starting to compare yourself objectively to previous. Like what metrics do you know make you

ready for, you know, the field or to diet, right? I think a lot of people have a hard time applying this concept to general population because they're like, well, what, aren't we either dieting or not dieting? And I'm like, kind of, except every diet, we understand every calorie deficit is a navigation away from set point. And so if, you know, if we look at a unit away from set point, and we go 10 units away from set point, well, it stands to reason that to be best suited for our next diet, we need to recoup those 10 units, if you will, right? So likely the duration of your diet will, you'll need at least that duration of your diet to recover. Sometimes it can be done faster, but very rarely.

You know, the research is kind of conflicting. We do understand we need to recover there's some research that indicates speed of recovery. So if you increase calories, it's more significantly early in the recovery diet. It will help. I don't know if I agree with that. The research again is not clear. The off season is going to be based on your, what your life is like. I don't think it's not a sport. So your season is not clearly defined. When is the next time you're actively going to want to pursue a goal? And then the pre-season here would be, are you mentally prepared? I mean, dude, I don't know what it was like if you guys just die for random things now, but you got to mentally prepare for that. Your significant other has to know. I'm going to be like, listen, we're not having drinks every single night. We're not going

to dinner at three nights a week. I might be a little more moody for the next six weeks, and then when we get to vacation, I'll be better, but you have to set those things up. It kind of goes back to the whole setting clear foundation. I think that to best answer the question, it's about tangible outcomes. You know what's just to throw a wrench in all of this too? At some point, and this is just for the person

listening right now who's so solely focused on one of those three components that we talked about. Because I know there's some people listening to like, well cool, I don't care, I just wanna be shredded, or whatever, I don't give a shit, I just wanna perform. Yeah, at some point, the extreme pursuit of just one, you're obviously compromising the other two, but at some point you'll lose the one you're after as well.

Because at some point, or just at some point, being extremely lean all the time in your compromising your health, your compromising return. Yeah, at some point your health goes so bad that you can't be lean. Well, every adaptation you create hinders your ability to adapt again in the same manner. And so more simply stated, every time we lose fat, it's harder to lose fat. We know inherently, the body has the strongest, most sophisticated defense mechanism

against body fat loss. So as soon as you start losing fat, your body's like, fuck this, I need to store fat. I need to live. I'm put on this Earth to survive, thrive, and procreate. So we know metabolic adaptations begin. And so the deeper we get into the fat loss journey, the harder it is to lose fat.

Well, the more you improve your performance, like we're not put on this Earth to run four second 40 yards. We're not put on this earth to run four second 40 yards, right? We're not put on this earth to squat 600 pounds. And so your body starts doing things. Why do people get injured at their highest levels of performance, right?

We look at one of the things I used to always be able to tell, whenever I saw CrossFit or that was super lean and they were at a high level competition, I'm like, that person's gonna get injured. And everyone's like, how did you, how did you predict that? And I'm like, they are literally at the peak of their output. And the minute they go beyond threshold,

their body is going to intentionally injure itself to prevent any future output, right? Which it perceives as a threat to itself. And so the more adaptation you create in a specific manner, the more difficult it becomes to continue adapting in that same manner, which again speaks to the need to periodize. Now, do you have to rotate through the different ones?

Absolutely not. NFL athletes are staying in performance for years at a time. People that compete in physique components, they're staying in the same point of the triangle, the same every single year, right? It's like, hey, I'm gonna look a certain way. I'm gonna recover, I'm gonna do an off-season, I'm gonna get ready for my next show.

And so there's still saying in the same modality, so you don't have to rotate through them, but you definitely do have to period out. Yeah, I would make the case though too, that those example, you see the greatest repercussions from the people that stayed in bodybuilding for decades, end up with the most problems, with the people that played football for 10 years,

and that's the compromise as being made or just it's absolutely so. Even though you could do it, right? And we looked up a stat on NFL before we started this, right? The average NFL athlete that's dying is happening between 56 and 59 years old. The average person that's dying that played football

is sub 60, I mean, that's fucking scary. And I have to assume that very few of them are like, well, I'm gonna play football for a year, but you know what next year I'm gonna do bodybuilding, right, but then I'll go back to football the following. Or maybe I'll go sleep in a cave for a year. Like, they don't do that. They continue hammering home.

And if I had to guess, they're probably not periodizing, right, and then this creates a whole nother issue, especially at high level athletics, is like, well, why don't athletes do this? If this knowledge is out there and it's readily out there, why aren't people doing it? Yeah, the reality is now we're talking sponsorship dollars. Now we're talking about self-identity. There's some issues. There's dreams. Well, if you guys are UFC fans, there's some UFC guys that are getting in the octagon that should not fucking be fighting. Like if I don't know how the DS brothers still do it. They've been paying, he ain't paying.

Well, shout out to Nate for winning his last time. I mean, and that's why I'm saying, I don't understand. But he beat Tony Ferguson, who I, that's actually who I was gonna talk about. Tony looks so bad in that fight. And I'm a huge UFC guy. Like I'm such a UFC fan. He looks so fucking bad in that fight.

He has to understand his time is done. Like, and he was, dude, he was great. He was one of the reasons UFC got to where it is. I think that if him and Kabeev had fought, the very first time when they were supposed to fight, it would have been an amazing fight. Like, I'm a big UFC guy. His time is up.

And he finishes that fight. And he's like, guys, I'm just getting started. Oh, getting started, what? Like moving closer to your fucking coffin? Because that's it. Yeah, you know what sucks? Is that attitude? Is what got him your fucking coffin? Because that's it. You know what sucks? Is that attitude? Is what got them there?

Yeah. Now it's his detriment. Now you had to drop it really on. Crazy. Now you had to drop that attitude. Yeah, it's funny. Arthur Brooks, a good friend of ours, wrote a book called From Strength to Strength.

And he talks about how, and this is kind of a long, the lines where we're talking about how, after retirement, there's this diverging graph where some people do great, improve quality life, live longer, and some people's health just immediately suffers. They have a really terrible quality life. And he said the difference between the two are that people can shift, the people that can shift, so the people that are doers, and then they retire become teachers.

So it's like this attitude of fighting, example and never giving up. Well at some point I have to switch that. So now I got to switch that to teaching others. Otherwise I'm going to kill myself. Let's kind of let's kind of how I try to frame business development for coaches is a lot of coaches struggle when they have to become the CEO of their business. They they feel this imposter syndrome of I'm not the one doing all of the coaching, therefore I'm not as important. And I'm like, no, no, you're actually coaching just at a different level. You're coaching your staff, you're coaching your employees,

sometimes you're coaching yourself to get through the rigors of all of the shit, but you're still a coach, right? So teaching is still a function of what they were doing at a lower level. It's just extending really the value and the reach and the impact of their organization. It's just unfortunate because we don't celebrate those guys and girls. We don't celebrate the UFC fighter who did two years of the pro level, then retired and

then became a coach and loved life, had a family and kids and had a great, healthy life because he got his bag, then he got into a job that fulfilled him longevity wise. No, we talked about him. you want to talk about the extremes, like the Ferguson's that have gone in the ring like a dog and just wore after a war. After a war. Chocolate Dells are great examples. And that dude's probably thought,

and I mean, shout out to Chuck, they didn't mean. I mean, he's a warrior, but he went too far. He's got to be fucked. But I mean, how hard that is for them too, because they, well, I'll give you guys a name, because you guys are casual UFC fans, you know James Krausses?

You do. Okay, so most people, if I said James Krauss really, who's that? Yeah, one more of a UFC fan in these games. Right, so it's like, so why do we not know James Krauss? Well, James is an amazing fighter. He won a lot of fights in the UFC.

He's now a coach to a lot, he runs a camp that I believe is one of the best camps in UFC, but he's also a transition now, he's doing a podcast, he's getting his media out there. That's what I mean, nobody is celebrating somebody. Nobody cares, nobody cares. Which is so sad. Because he's not an extreme.

Because he didn't make it to Chuck Lidell type of status, Tony Ferguson type status. We didn't get his face beaten in his last fight for a dead poor James Krause for overextending. Well, it's hard because it requires a tremendous self-awareness and personal growth. Because if you, if people don't realize, let people understand this, that if you achieve a great deal of notoriety and success being and acting in a particular way, that's probably one of the hardest places to be when you need to change.

Because it's who I am, people love me. I'm crushing at it and How do you abandon that when it's time to abandon it? You know, you get all this love for it and you got all the success Now I got a change gears. I did your identity is completely wrapped and it's an identity you love right you gave you all this great stuff It's like no wonder people have to literally get you know hurt and we're for them to see it I'll give you a great one right now in the journey I'm on. For the better part of 18, 19 years, my goal in the gym was either performance or muscle pain, right? To some degree, it was always performance. I wanted to get bigger, I wanted to get stronger,

I wanted to look better. I'm in a position now where there's no professional golfer that is 5, 10, 200 pounds, right? And so I've begun this journey of actively losing muscle. And so it is the hardest fucking thing I've ever done in my entire life because I wake up in the morning, I don't even, I won't even get on the scale.

But I'll look in the mirror and I'm like, I'm a skinny bitch. And so I go around all these golfers and I'm like, oh, you're jacked. And then I see myself on video and I'm like, fuck, I've lost so much muscle. And I have to like, you know, I have such a self identity tied to the 19 years of pursuing gaining muscle.

And so my identity was, I'm this guy that can walk the walk of my talk. And I was like, yeah, I talk about gaining muscle, I talk about getting lean and look, I can do it over and over again. And so now I'm doing this. And I'm not gonna lie, man, I have this massive fear of getting on stage at coaching con next year and grabbing the mic

and having a thousand people in the stands looking at me and being like, is to see if cancer. Like, I actually fear that people are going to judge me. Well, being around all the golfers is probably a good thing because they, well, that's a great ego boost. Right, oh, I'm saying. I mean, when you think about it, it's probably a good thing because they, Oh, that's a great ego boost. Right. Oh, I'm saying. I mean, when you think about it, it's probably a good place for you to pursue

while you're trying to overcome those, you know, deep-rooted insecurities. I think that so many of our, I think logically we could all sit here and build a plan for me to lose muscle and still be healthy and functionally fit, right? Yeah. The execution of that's gonna be insanely difficult.

Of course. And mainly because of the psychological part. Not because the lack of knowledge or discipline. Exactly. And I of that's gonna be insanely difficult. Of course. And mainly because of the psychological part, not because of the lack of knowledge or discipline. Exactly. And I think that's- No, because you got tons of knowledge and discipline. Right. I wouldn't, you know,

I wouldn't have achieved all the things I've achieved if I didn't, but it's still really hard. And I think that that speaks, and this would be a whole other podcast, which is, you know, why when every resource is out there are people not achieving results. And, you know, I say this, you know, achieving results and you know, I say this You're going back to our certification. I say this the very first thing

Nothing you're going to learn from me on day one is not something you couldn't find on Google And so my question is as an aspiring coach why don't you know it? And the reality is there's too much of it out there You're not disciplined enough to synthesize it and figure out what you should know But most importantly even if you do fucking know it, the reason you're struggling is because you're not using the principles that we've been discussing today. You don't understand how do you bridge the knowledge

and how do you facilitate application. And the best in the world are the ones that can create the application. I believe if somebody was to coach me on my journey right now, it would not be about the science of me losing. No. I understand how to do it. They would not be about the science of me losing. No. I understand how to do it. They would be able to get my mind in a place where, and they would gamify it, they would

do something to where I was okay with continuing to lose muscle. And that mentally, I was able to perform at the same level as I could. This is the argument that we get into with other coaches and. Because this is true for everyone by the one and PhDs and that are in our space because everybody wants to debate the science. And it's like you're in our opinion, like you are missing the most important piece which is the psychological and behavioral piece. Because yeah, okay, so what in a controlled environment, this study says this, We're not lab rats.

None of that matters if I can't get my client, which I've trained hundreds of them, thousands between all three of us, that I've tried to get to do X, Y, and Z, that the study says, if 90% of them fail me, that study's fucking moot. Doesn't even matter, so why am I arguing with you? To live forever, we should go a little car, right?

Like, we can understand that. We should also stop training, and we should, you know, again, sleep in a cave and take long walks on the beach. Yeah. I'm not gonna stop training. I'm also not going to give up carbs. Like, period, the end. And so, if you can't help me inside of the application

where maybe I train less frequently, maybe I train less intensely, maybe I enjoy my training at lower intensities, maybe we manipulate my carventake to where I can still do the things I want, then you're a shitty coach. Because spouting off facts to me that I fundamentally just don't want.

Yeah. Great, like I understand you're smart. There's so many fucking academics in this world. That's true for everybody. I'll never forget this as an early trainer. I think I must have been year two or three. I had a client that hired me was severely obese, and I used to run a gym that was across the street from a hospital.

They worked the same one later on, but they had a gastro-bipast program there, and at some point, we would get some of their patients. So this guy came to me, big guy, he had to lose weight in order to get the surgery. Anyway, we got in these deep conversations, and at this point, I really started to figure out that being vulnerable and honest was a great way to get people to do the same thing back. We're talking and he says, you know, we go, I'm actually a little, I'm really nervous about losing a lot of weight. I said, why?

He says, because I don't want people to approach me. I don't want to have these kind of relationships where I get close with people. I say, what? And he goes, yeah, he goes, I'm really realizing that a lot of what I did, this was him personally, a lot of what I've done to myself was really to create this kind of barrier between me and deep relationships.

And it had to go back to his childhood and stuff like that. But when I heard that, it's like, okay, you give them all the Xs and Os, you give them the ones and zeros, it doesn't matter. No, that matters. And back to Adam's point, you could show me a study that says that swimming in a cold lake burns 15% more body fat than doing cardio in the afternoon. If my client's like, I ain't going to go swimming in a cold lake in the morning, it doesn't matter. None of that matters. It's all about the behaviors. It's all about the behaviors. And that's why we need to talk about this. And that's why, and again, what I try to do

is I try to sell people on how to do the right stuff by talking to these behaviors. For example, I think it's wise for everybody to cycle through seasons of performance, getting leaner and longevity. How do I communicate that to someone who just wants to get leaner? Or how do I communicate to someone who just wants to get leaner? Or how do I communicate to someone who just wants to perform better? Well, here's how. If you don't cycle in and out of that, you're gonna lose whatever you're seeking.

So like for you, for example, who's always wanting to be lean, you know at some point, you even talked about it. You'll do enough of the other stuff to get you out of the hole, right? So you've understood that at least, right? So that's how I try to communicate it. And I think that there's a big,

I think the space is missing that tremendously because we always argue over the mechanistic aspect. Well, I mean, I think Jason hit it earlier. It's the marketing piece, right? It's much easier for us to divide you, cattle you hear in there, and then market directly to this one specific goal, that one pain point.

Oh, you want to be ripped? I'm going to mark it everything. I'm not going to tell you it's a triangle. And if you go this way a little bit, you're going to pull from that. That's a conversation. That's complicated. It's not sexy. It means long time.

It means you don't get exactly what you want. It's much easier for me to be like, what? You want to get ripped? Okay. Here's what I have for you. Here's the supplement. Here's the way we train. Here's the way we think. like, and sell you that.

And you're more likely to convert that person to revenue much quicker and easier. It's not- I asked the question one time on my social media, and I think it was in December, and I said, if next year, all of your marketing had to speak truth, would your marketing change? And like crickets. Yeah. Because people are like,

fuck, I would actually have to start telling the truth. Because everybody's everyone in our space is promoting they have a foul-ass solution. And not saying you don't, but we all know, as coaches, 90% of people that come to us, right, especially in today, right, 2022, they're a metabolic compromise to some degree, just relative to the protocols that have been thrown out in the last 10 years. It's not the fault of the consumer. The education circa 2007-2010 was so poor. It was paleo in high performance environments.

It was low-carb in high performance environments. It was excessive calorie deficits. I think that the prevailing knowledge now is that you don't need excessively low calories to lose body fat. You just need to sustain a smaller calorie deficit for longer period of time. And you'll do so in a healthy manner. The problem is we're battling the, you know, all the poor protocols from the last generation. And nobody wants to market, hey, I'll help you lose fat, but we'll begin our fat loss

journey in six months after we recover from all the shit because that's not sexy. You know, even on the business side, I've been having this like epiphany in my head, which is every business coach under the sun is like, I'll make you $100,000. And I'm massively confident in my abilities to help any business. We've done it. We've built, you know, 10 plus millionaires at this point, thousands of six figure earners. It's great. But the truth, if I was to take all of the marketing in the world, is I'm going to make your money back as fast as possible, so that I feel like we're both on the same foundational level. Then I'm going to have you pump the brakes for a few months on only focusing on revenue because that's the biggest problem

in the marketplace, by the way. I'm going to help you build a foundation that will always allow you to build revenue. So, are you cool with like making back 30 grand really quickly? Are you cool with then pausing for six months and then we can resume revenue? Most coaches are like, well no, the dickhead down the street is telling me I'm going to be 30 grand a month right away. So, fuck you. Except I'm looking out for you long term, they're looking out for your dollars in their pockets. Please lie to me. And that's what people are actively seeking. You know, I got a speculation,

and then I'll transition to something I think is interesting, and I'd love your input. But the speculation is because I think that the internet and media at first flooded the market with a lot more bad information. But then what it did is it opened up the bandwidth to where before you had only so many channels, and because there were only so many channels with a lot more bad information. But then what it did is it opened up the bandwidth to where before you had only so many channels,

and because there were only so many channels competing for all these people, that doing a two or three hour discussion podcast was like, no, everything's 10 minutes or less, it's all sound bites. There's no way you can communicate what we try to communicate because what we're trying to do is tell you the right way to do it in a five minute sound bite.

Just as a work, it's a long form communication. And so I think the speculation is I think it's going to go in the other direction because the internet's limitless with bandwidth. So now we can have two or three hour podcasts, or I can do a thousand, like we've done over 1800 episodes where you could find probably 100 fat loss episodes where we talk about the

same stuff but we say it differently, 100 different ways. And as you continue to listen, it'll start to make sense. It's a conversation. So there's repetition. Yes. So there's that. And then the second thing, this is what I love your speculation on. We've said for a long time that fitness, the pursuit of fitness is one of the most unassuming yet powerful forms or vehicles for personal growth. Okay. People don't realize it when they go into it.

They're like, I want to look better. I want to get fit. But if you pursue it long enough, you got to learn acceptance because at some point you get older. So you're not going to be as awesome or whatever as you were before. At some point, you have to visit things that you weren't visiting before.

Like at some point, I had to like make peace with the fact that mobility is going to be a part of my routine. That's something I hated, but it's like, well, now I have to and I wanna keep doing this, so I'm gonna make this a part of my life. At some point you have to figure out how to modify it because your lifestyle changes, stress, family, illness, whatever.

So through the journey of fitness, you have to process a lot and grow quite a bit. Have you experienced this through the, through the journey? Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don't think I would be anywhere that I am today. This is going to sound like a really crazy statement, how do I not become anorexic? And prior to anorexia, I had no discipline. I was the kid that had, I was super intelligent, but I had zero work ethic. And so like I got, you know, my SATs were very high.

Like back when the scale was like 1600, I was like around a 1500 SAT. But my homework average was like a zero. And I always said in school, like, test tell you how smart you are, homework says, how hard do you work? And had I gone back, I would have actually, you know, can I go back today,

I would take pride in having a 100% homework average. Because it's a reflection of a hard you work, and how'd I go on back? I would have actually, you know, can I go back today? I would take pride in having a hundred percent homework average because it's a reflection of how hard you work and I'll take hard workers over knowledgeable people any day. We can teach you skills. We can't teach you intangibles. And it was the first time in my life that I had to become completely dedicated to something because the reason I was aniracic was I wanted to, I wanted a shredded six pack and I was willing to do anything to get there. I was so fucking miserable in that time of my life that I would sit on the floor of my parents, you know, in my room, in my parents' bedroom, and I would contemplate suicide at night. Like that's how miserable I was.

And I would wake up the next morning and I'm like, all right, let's go. And I would do anything. I mean, dietarily, like I would sit in front of people eating desserts and everything. And I'm like, nope, I'm strong. And if you know anything about eating disorders, you start to hold it as a trophy, you start to look down at other people. And like, yeah, like that was a part of my life at the time too.

But yeah, man, I don't think I would have the traits that I have today. But you wouldn't have survived it either without the fitness pursuit. No, I wouldn't. And I think that some of the, I don't think I would be as a strong willed today, right? Because I mean, we talked about my situation earlier, just the insane some of the, I don't think I would be a strong will today, right? Because I mean, we talked about my situation earlier,

just the insane amounts of stress, trying to juggle that with life and physical pursuits and having a daughter and lost my father this year. And I don't think I'd be able to power through a lot of the things that I did had I not gone through that either. And so I think that the results of my fitness have certainly made me physically strong enough to take on most things. But I think that the mental side and the mental issues I've had

to go through have also made me resilient enough to go through a lot of things. I mean, a lot of people could tell you, you know, this time last year, I mean, you guys are familiar, you know, we had trauma inside of our business, right? Right. You know, I had somebody kind of, you know, somebody I'd really trusted kind of just departed. And, you know, I had, I lost my dad this year. I lost my co-founder in the last year. You know, we've had unlimited things happen. And I've been resilient enough

to just kind of put my head down and plow forward. And I don't think I would be anywhere here without fitness as being really the cornerstone of my life. Do you do you looking forward to see other things for you that you're gonna probably have to tackle? I guess you mentioned you're good. So yeah I mean physically for sure you know I'm getting my I finally went to an ortho last Thursday and have my hip look that and so I'm either gonna have to have it scoped or have a full replacement. Oh wow. Yeah so I go for an MRI next week and we'll confirm which one. I'm guessing Ioped or have a full replacement. Oh wow. Yeah, so I go for an MRI next week and we'll confirm which one.

I'm guessing I'm going to have a full replacement. What's it going to take for you to be super longevity focused? Or is that impossible? I don't know. If you ask me today, gun to the head, I don't see it happening. But you know, I, you're so great at my all. I don't put a pass here. I think you would if you had to.

Yeah, I think there will come a time where I understand that. You know, ironically, I'm really getting,'m really trying to start loving to read more. And so I've been reading the Almanacum DeVal. And DeVal states in there that physical health is his number one priority. And DeVal is pretty successful. So if DeVal prioritizes physical health above everything, above mental health, above business,

if really smart people have done it before me, maybe I should look more into it. But I think that I jokingly, I'm self-deprecating and say how poor my longevity is. I think that I secretly probably do a lot of really good things like. Well, I'm comparison to the average person you're quite years ahead of me.

I get seven to nine hours a sleep per night, right? Like I mean, I went to sleep last night here in San Fran at 8.30 last night. I mean, time zones, etc. You have family, you have friends, you keep yourself at a moderately low body fat percentage, you strength train. I mean, you sleep, I mean, those are,

I even, you're checking the box on a lot of what most people are really missing out. You don't, you probably don't eat tons of process food. I mean, there's a lot of things that you are doing in the direction of course. Also, very high standards. So I compare myself to probably perfection. And so when I'm self-deprecating enough to say that I don't do these things,

it's comparison to like being a hundred out of a hundred. And I'm probably like a 85 out of a hundred. So certainly not bad. You know, I think long-term in, it's, I can't wait to see what unfolds. And I think that that's really the coolest part of where I'm out in life now is I've always been very entrenched in the now and I'm very focused. So don't get me wrong, I'm a very focused person, but I also understand there's way more

to come. I think we had a very poignant conversation before this about things that are happening in life right now. And I had this happen, the opportunities I have on the table today, and they happened three years ago, I would have very much been about them now, and I would have not seen the future, whereas I think today, my decisions or my actions are far more dictated by the future,

and I think that's growth and evolution of me as a person. So, okay, one more question, and maybe this will put you on the spot a little bit, but why are the coaches at NCI, so loyal to NCI? And don't tell me it's because of the money they make and how successful they are. I don't think that's any of it.

Okay, good. I've run enough businesses, I've been enough gyms and had enough teams to know that that's not what creates crazy loyalty. So I have to help. All that helps. It helps. Well, that's a side effect, right?

So I have my thoughts. It also can become the biggest detriment. You're right. It can also facilitate entitlement. That's right. So so why is it because I noticed this about the coaches with you guys I mean we're on weekly calls with your coaches and I talked a lot of my get DMs from them and the loyalty to you guys is exceptional what is it yeah you know it's it's interesting man I think that I've tried to become very introspective of this because it's something I'm very proud of, but it's not even to the level I want it to be yet.

I think that what remains to still be achieved is a reflection of me. So all the personal growth that I need to do will grow the community. That being said, the personal growth I've experienced and the personal growth that our team has experienced together is I think what yields the success of our community. And I say that in the sense of everything we've done from day one has been in the, you know, kind of in the presence of the connection-based model. And so when you come to NCI, you learn that.

And I, you know, kind of go back to the statement, I don't care how much you know about health and fitness. If you can't get your client to facilitate that, you know, via implementation, then really you're not a very good coach. And the only way you can do that is through connecting with them. Sometimes that storytelling to your client,

sometimes that's vulnerability with your client, sometimes that's being stern and yelling at your clients or everybody's different, everybody's wowed differently. I feel like you got to be a little bit of a chameleon. I know we've talked about that when I've been in here previously. But I think it's the notion that I'm never going to ask you to do something

that I haven't done or that I wouldn't do myself. I'm always going to give you a reason for why I'm telling you to do something. I'm never going to make you do anything and I'm going to support you above everything else. Not your results, not the way you feel, nothing else. I'm going to support you in your journey. And because I'm willing to do that,

my team has adopted that mindset. And because they are willing to, they are actively touching the community in such a way. But you know, this is done across the board. This isn't just in personal communication. This is also in our marketing. When we look at, as a company, how we've grown, one of our biggest weaknesses is we have no direct response marketing, how we've grown, one of our biggest weaknesses

is we have no direct response marketing, meaning we don't run an ad and say buy our shit. We get to know you and then because people tend to like us or because we like you or there's a good connection, holy shit, you end up buying from us. Imagine that. It's like two people that like each other go on a date and then they turn into like an actual relationship.

We would rather do business, and we would rather have a community of people that genuinely like each other than people that are willing to spend dollars. That's been the cornerstone of massive growth. It's also what the coaches that have been successful with us uses their cornerstone of massive growth. And I think it's what's going to continue to allow us

to ascend and help a lot of people, man. I think that somebody said to me the other day, I just did a, I did Kenny Santucci's event in New York three days ago. And like I sat on a panel and I did, we answered all these questions and I came off stage and I was like a line of like 20 people that wanted to just come up and thank me

for like the bluntness of my answers. And my VP of education looks at me, he's like, dude, like, look at that. He's like, look at that line of people that you just did that. You impacted that. And I don't think that we ever as coaches sit back and reflect enough. I think we're so worried about the journey. We're so worried about the information we put out. We're so worried about the growth of our company that we forget that man, one person, one is greater than zero. And if we continue to touch one person every day, we're winning.

Yeah. Can I tell you what the coach has told me? Please. But one has them. They say, uh, because Jason is real and he, and he really cares. So basically what you said, but they say it pretty succinctly. That's dope, man. I mean, I, it's, it's cool to hear that. And it's still humbling to hear. You know, it's not to like get nostalgic on you, man. I remember the first time I, I came into this room into this podcast room, and I was just a coach, right? Like NCI was just, it was almost just beginning, man. And I remember just being so in awe of the industry

and to now, we had an independent research done to now be one of the actual top certifications in the world. It's like, and think about the number of lives we've changed. It's pretty crazy, man. It's awesome. It's been a great journey, man. It's always great to have you on the show. Thank's like, and think about the number of lives we've changed. It's pretty crazy, man. It's been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man.

It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man.

It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. It's always been a great journey, man. The RGB Superbundle includes MAPSANABOLIC, MAPSTERFORMENT and MAPSISTEDIC, 9 months of phased

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