Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2070: Secrets & Confessions of a Fitness Influencer With Thomas DeLauer

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak with Thomas DeLauer who lost a hundred pounds and built a successful fitness brand. His intention of getting on YouTube. (1:46) There is fitness, and then there is health. (8:38) How lifting saved his life. (11:18) The HUGE misconception about eating disorders. (16:09) Understanding that this is NOT going to control me, and I’m going to OWN it. (22:43) Helping people to help yourself. (25:47) The feeling of not fitting in and having imposter syndrome. (28:03) Having guard rails and avoiding being too extreme. (31:40) His relationship with drugs. (35:13) How he ended up in the private equity world. (37:11) Breaking out of your echo chamber. (45:01) The cream will rise to the top and block out the rest. (49:59) How fatherhood has changed him. (53:46) The vantage point you get once you have kids. (1:00:22) Nothing meaningful is easy. (1:05:15) What concerns him the most about the future of his kids? (1:10:11) Managing technology with kids. (1:17:38) Related Links/Products Mentioned For Mind Pump listeners only, Dr. Cabral is offering a Buy 1 + Get 1 for the EquiLife Omega-3 Support soft gels. Boost your brain, heart, recovery, and much more with this limited-time Buy 1 Get 1 Free offer! May Promotion: MAPS Prime or MAPS Prime Pro or the Prime Bundle 50% off! **Code MAY50 at checkout** Thomas DeLauer - YouTube ‎Modern Wisdom: #615 - Thomas DeLauer - Apple Podcasts Village Corner Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Features Guest/People Mentioned Thomas DeLauer (@thomasdelauer) Instagram V Shred (@vshred) Instagram Chris Williamson (@chriswillx) Instagram Chris Voss (@thefbinegotiator) Instagram Peter Attia (@peterattiamd) Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness health and entertainment podcast in history. This is Mind Pump Right. Today's episode, we had Thomas DeLauron, he's a fitness influencer, lots and lots of followers. Today's episode, he gives us all the secrets and confessions about how we lost a hundred pounds, how we built

this business, what he thinks about the fitness industry, about being a dad, raising kids, much more, very illuminating episode. We know you're going to enjoy this one, and of course you can find them on almost any platform. This episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors. Dr. Stephen Cabral's company, Equalife, makes some pretty amazing supplements. And right now, for my pump listeners only, he's gonna give you buy one, get one free offer

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If you're interested, go to mapsfitnisproducts.com and then use the code May 50, so that's May 5-0, no space for that discount. All right, here comes the show. Was it your YouTube channel that you started first, where you like on Facebook and things like that first, where you want Facebook was kind of first, but YouTube kind of went at the same time. Yeah, I mean, it's, I just kind of got, I think I just got lucky with the timing with YouTube. I mean, it's just like sometimes a little bit, it is just luck, you know, it was just

talking about my kind of transformation. I hate that word, honestly, but it's so overused. Well, I know what it, I mean, you lost a hundred pounds. It's good. That's a transformation for sure. I think that just kind of happened at the right time, along with like some magazine coverage at the right time, where it was like a little bit of mainstream, plus a little bit of what I was doing on.

So it just was like a perfect recipe for that. Did you get like the like hockey stick feeling or what have you been just like, it was definitely a perfect recipe for that. Did you get like the hockey stick feeling or have you been just like, it was definitely a hockey stick for sure. 2018ish or so was like, I think the channel grew like a million subs that year. Wow. Yeah, well, that was not like, it was cool.

And this is, I'll probably talk about this. I mean, this was never what I intended to do. Like, I'm such an introverted person. Like, it was never what I planned to do. So it I'm such an introverted person, like, it was never what I planned to do. So, it was, so for me, it was like, oh crap. All right, I guess I'll take this and run with it. I, you know what's funny to me is we've met so many people that have like big YouTube channels.

I mean, you got over three million subs on yours, then a lot of them are introverts, but kill it on camera, totally. Yeah, on YouTube. It was not ready for that. So, I'm the opposite. I think all of us are trying to be the opposite. We do better in person, and it was a struggle

to make this transition of in the camera. Totally. And some of the most successful YouTubers or people that we've met online, we meet them and they're like, yeah, no, I'm totally introvert to that person. I'm like, that's so wild to me. That's easy to connect to a camera

when you're looking just at a lens. It's nice, because it's like a one on one. If you can really connect that way, but I mean, which don't get me wrong. I mean, I love being in a group and discussing and talking, but it's, yeah, I just never had, if you had to ask me 10 years ago, if this is what I was going to be doing. What was the, what was the intention then when you first went on YouTube? I mean, it was definitely like putting the information out there, but I came out of the private equity world. So it was like for me, it was,

I had like a little liquidation event and I got out and I was like, okay, I want to do something different. So it was, it wasn't like I want to get huge and popular. It was more so I had an ebook at the time and let's just market the ebook and let's talk about it and see what happened. And then once it started to work and I started to realize that what I was good at

was kind of articulating more complex subject matter. I'm like, you know, I'm good at this. Like maybe I can use this for good, and that's kind of where it all started. So then once I realized that I actually, and I actually really liked production, that was the thing. So for me, like I built the studio and hired my team just out of the sake of like, I wanna make a production company.

I really wanna do that. And I was super into the gear, super into all that. So for me it was like okay, where this goes, you know, nobody knows. Maybe it'll be more entertainment value, maybe it'll be more, but I realized that I was decent at what I did. So let's just kind of roll with it. So then like, the reason I think the channel took off the way it did early on is we were really pretty early when it came down to adding production value to health content. Right.

Like we were like, let's elevate this. So we were like the first ones to really be thinking about that. I don't want to say the first ones, but it was definitely, there was nothing else on YouTube in like 2017, 2016, 2017, where they were actually focusing on production value to talk about just general health topics. Yeah, we've been doing this for eight years now and I think we all said before you came today, we know we've made it once we have the V-Shred guy

on our show. Yeah, this is, I'm sorry, this is huge for us. I saw you do a post, you're like, I'm not V-Shred, let the hell spill it on here. It's so ridiculous. What? That's fucking annoying.

Where did that work that come from? I mean, it started with, I started with like a few comments where people were like saying something, like, oh, this is, I don't know, I don't understand how you can be telling us not to do cardio and then here you're talking about all these benefits of this and I'm just like, what the fuck is going on? I never said that. Like contradicting stuff and then I would're talking about all these benefits of this and I'm just like, what the fuck is going on? I never said that.

Like contradicting stuff and then I would just see other ones be like, you're so gimmicky. I'm like, I'm actually like, maybe I am. I'm a gimmicky. I'm like asking my wife what's going on. Is my stuff gimmicky? Like I really try to be like, not gimmicky. I really try.

And then I started like realizing and I started connecting the dots. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, what the heck? So I replied to one comment and was like, do you by any chance think that I'm V-Stread? And the person was like, oh my god, I'm like, wait a minute, like what the heck? So I replied to one comment and was like, do you buy any chance to think that I'm V-Stread? And the person was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry, yes, I knew. And then it was like a flood of comments underneath that,

and I thought that too, I thought that too. So then like eight months ago, I posted a video similar to one I just did, it's talking about like, guys, I am not V-Stread, just like, and I put it out there kind of dispelling the whole cardio thing just because like that was a big thing for me. I'm a runner. I love cardio. I'm not going to tell people not to do it. And then I think I got out there. And that was where all the comments came

in. I'm like, holy shit, have my fucking audience thinks I'm V-Street. It's all time. So then I got to a point where I really thought about it and I was like, how is this actually affecting my brand? Like I'm just like thinking about it on the surface. Like I'm sure once people watch my content they know, but the way the YouTube algorithm works, I mean it's serving our content out to, you know, our audience, but probably a lion share not to our audience just to try to test

to see where it wants to serve it. And I'm like, there's probably so many people that just like look at a thumb and think that I'm V-Street and they don't click on the video because they think I'm V-Street. So it's, and then yeah, it's time I do a video about it. It's amazing the people that come out of the woodwork

and that are just like, yeah, I'm embarrassed, but I did think this. And I see contact to you, is it become like a thing? No, but I mean, I was thinking, I was, I thought for a minute that maybe I should do some kind of like collaboration with them, but I just don't necessarily wanna be associated with it. Yeah, I thought for a minute that maybe I should do some kind of like collaboration with them, but I just don't necessarily want to be associated with it.

Yeah. If I did that, it would just backfire. I don't think anybody has really, isn't he kind of like, he's an actor. I mean, he's just does these commercials and then he's probably out. So I would imagine they're looking for more of his content and then they probably find that you actually have like videos and tell the podcasts. Who was it that we met that actually told us like his kind of his story like he was hired like that as like there's somebody else's behind the scenes. They're behind the business and hired him as actually just like they hired

him to just do you know anything about that. Do you know his story? I know I mean just about that right. I know that he's definitely not the brand like he is just the face of it. I met him once at some event before his brand ever exploded or did anything before Orchid and say his brand, but the V-Holvich red thing. And he seemed like just a regular dude. He didn't seem knowledgeable or anything like that. In fact, if anything, off-record, I mean, he seemed pretty dumb. Well, that's what I've heard. So I mean, I definitely don't think that he had any ability

to articulate anything at all. I think it was just you know who knows. Like I don't think he's reading off of a prompt or anything but I think that it's straight up just. Well he's the face industry. Yeah. Did you and it's what we're working with? Yeah so I mean we you know getting into the space,

getting popular. You came from private equity, okay? Private equity, actually we had this conversation when we first started the business. There's certain industries where the top people, they're all smart, like you go to private equity and you're talking with a lot of influential people, it's really smart people, tech, really smart people,

fitness, there's not a lot of really smart people, there's some, but a lot of the people you're competing with, I mean this is just but a lot of the people you're competing with I mean, this is just true a lot of people you're competing with these look good and you hear what they say and you meet them in person and You know, I saw it as an opportunity like oh, this is not gonna be too hard but what's sad about it is the average consumer is Getting information from people that they shouldn't be getting information from. When you got into the space, were you surprised by this?

Because you were a consumer fitness for a long time, or are you not so surprised by this? It's a good question. I wasn't really surprised, because I also looked at it in a similar fashion, and be like, oh my gosh, but I looked at it from the aspect of like there's fitness and then there's health,

and I saw this huge divergence between the two. And I'm like, what? First of all, that was really confusing to me. As someone that came from sort of the outside in, I'm like, wait a minute, isn't fitness healthy? Yeah. No, that's not. There's fitness and then there's health.

But then kind of getting into it and realizing, well, this is like shooting fish in a barrel. What the hell? This is like, these people just will say anything that they can say to get a click and get a view and there's no actual depth. But I don't think it's malicious. I mean, I think it's actually somewhat the opposite. I think it's insecure and it's just,

it's another attention grab, right? It's the same way that someone wants to have, subconsciously wants to have a six pack or look a certain way. It's some coping mechanism insecurity and they kind of translates into how they operate their business in a very superficial way where it's just how can I get attention,

attention, attention, constantly seeking that validation. So I saw that really quick and I'm like, shit, if I just have depth, I don't even have to be fucking smart. If I just have depth, you know, then there's something here. Yeah, it's challenging because fitness is, well like most things are sold visually. And what tends

to sell fitness to the average consumer, it's changing a little bit now, but it's still very true, is how good do you look? Oh, you're jacked. I'm going to listen to you versus this person over here who may be not be so jacked. And so it's hard to overcome in the space because the most fit, hot looking person, they're gonna get more attention faster and so you have to beat their message and how do you beat it? Well, that's the challenge. The challenge is to beat it with the right information.

So that's what we've been trying to do this whole time. So, totally. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your start. What got you into fitness personally? And then we can talk about it how it happened professionally. You started working out quite young, right? Yeah, yeah, started out really young.

I don't know if you recently heard my podcast with Chris Williamson. Unfortunately, it was titled in a way that's not gonna get the attention that it probably needs because like the first 30 minutes I went like deep, like deeper than I've ever gone, where people are just like, what the hell, I had no idea like, you know, coming coming from like eating disorder when I was a kid

and I ran my first marathon when I was 11 years old and just kind of talked all about my mommy issues, you know, really, like, it talked about, so it gave a lot of context, but, you know, I found lifting when I was about 13 and it candidly saved my life. I mean, I think that I probably would have been in drugs, I probably would have been in really bad shape

Kind of a little bit of a broken childhood. I mean who doesn't but in the moment nothing seemed as a kid You only know what you know, right? So it's not until you become an adult and you kind of look back and you're like realizing wow That is a little twisted especially as a dad now. I'm like wow, okay things are a little odd You know, so I was kind of exposed to pretty extreme things at a young age just because my mom was just kind of wired that way. So I ran my first 10k when I was, I guess five or six.

I think I might have been six. Yeah, so. Did your parents put you into it? Are you like, I wanna do that? No, my mom was, she's not actually forced me into it. But what I've reversed engineered out of my life now is I understand now that the reason I'm running, the reason I'm so into exercises,

if I wanted to earn my mother's love, it was like, that's what you gotta do, right? So it's like deeply rooted for me, but I loved it, it wasn't like I didn't enjoy it as a kid. It wasn't like my mom was like, hey, you need to go run this marathon. I ran my first marathon when I was 11, and it was like something I enjoyed, right?

We backpacked the John Muir Trail when I was 12 years old, you know, from you know, Simony to Mount Whitney It was like 230 miles. Like people were just like they thought my mom was insane, right? And I hated school Like I just repeatedly would get you know, either suspended or I got expelled from preschool. It's a literally like I was I know I talk about it. I was like, I was, I was talking about, I know, I was talking about this. It was like literally, I was eating all the Play-Doh. No, I just would not have it. I would not stay there. I escaped, I escaped twice. And I would repeatedly try to escape

because I wanted to fucking go home. I didn't know. And I was like, it wasn't like a show. I knew from age like four that I'm just like, no, like don't lock me in a space. Like I don't want to be here, fuck this. So anyway, I guess I give that context because it helps people understand

sort of the disordered way of eating that I also developed as a kid too. So I went through when I was like 13, 14 years old, my parents went through a divorce. I had just ton of anxiety at that point in time, like a really bad bout of anxiety to the point where I was pulling my hair out. So I had like massive bald spots and I was made fun

of it school because of that. Just a weird thing. So with that, I started developing these weird little coping mechanisms. So I used to, I was really skinny anyway, but I used to like measure my wrist with my fingers. And if I could sort of like rattle my wrist around in my fingers, then that was a win for me.

It was like these little coping mechanisms. I can control this, right? Like little eating disorder behaviors. And I was pretty OCD as a kid anyway. Like I was always talked about this on some other shows, but it was like, we had this hardwood floor in my house where it was like these, what's the name of the place where the Celtics play where they're like,

they have, no not mad, I always get confused. It's Boston Garden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know how the floor there is like those squares in some grains run that way and some grains run that way. So I could only jump step on the grains that would face forward otherwise, in my mind, my mom was gonna die, right?

So there's always, there's a deeply rooted OCD that I had. And anyway, so by the time I'm like 13, 14 years old, like full-blown eating disorder and running my ass off like a maniac and my mom was going through some mental stuff after the divorce, so I ended up going through homeschool and was independent studied from pretty much all of high school

and was working full-time to help support my mom. So I kind of had just like a weird teenage years. Well, you're working as a teenager? Yes. So I got my workers permit when I was 14 and I was doing independent study, which means that I wasn't going to normal school. I was still working through the school because independent study was a way for you to basically home school, but through your own school.

And at the time, this just worked well for me mentally because that's how my brain worked. But then what I was really doing was, I mean, I was working close to full time. And that was some of the kids that were doing independent study were doing that. Like they were also working because we could actually get elective credits

to be working. So for me, I was working between 30 and 50 hours a week when I was 14 and 15 years old and helping support my mom. And it was just, so at a young age, I kind of just developed this work ethic anyway, but it was like totally unconventional childhood. Tom, let me pause you for a second,

because you said a lot, and this is, there's a lot of people listening right now that might relate to some of the stuff that you're saying. And you mentioned a few things about your eating disorders of kid, where it was something you could control. Looking back, and this is common with people

who have eating disorders, especially kids, it sometimes isn't related to body image issues, sometimes it's just something I can control in an environment that seems at a control. Is that how it felt for you? Absolutely. And there was nothing felt out of control as that kid. But now in retrospect, I'm like, wow,

that was a very dysfunctional thing. And that's not throwing my mom or dad under the bus, right? I don't talk about that stuff publicly. Like, they were good parents. But the bottom line is, you know, there were things there that were definitely messing with my head. To a point where I really felt like the only thing I could control was my running, was a level of fitness,

but also what I put in my body. It had nothing to do with body composition. It wasn't like, I wasn't a 14 year old kid being like, I need to be super shredded. It was a 14 year old kid being like, I get satisfaction out of abstaining from this, or I get satisfaction out of the control that I can have by eating only this, or at this time, or by running at this time. So it wasn't an actual relationship with food that was distorted.

It was much more just what I was getting out of the sensation of abstaining from food. I'm so glad we're talking about this because there's a huge misconception with eating disorders to where they all come from body image issues, but that's not the case at all. Oftentimes they come from just needing to feel a sense of control. You also started working at a young age to support your mom, so you were essentially preentified at a young age, which that basically means that you now have this tremendous responsibility and sense of value for this responsibility that most kids don't have.

And you probably at the time, you weren't aware of it looking back, or you're like, oh yeah, that's, I was preentified. I was almost like a parent, like I had to take care of things. Yeah, no, definitely developed that very, very quick. And it's not until I was an adult that I realized that, wow, that's not very normal. And not that normal is good or not normal is bad or good.

It's nothing like that. It's just that that was very unconventional. And I try to reverse engineer like, why am the way that I am today? Because people think, oh, this guy's just, online creates content, whatever, he's got money, he's got a beautiful wife, he's got kids, whatever.

They don't realize like, no, that's the price that you kind of pay. You have these weird experiences growing up and you have these things that expose you different things and frame who you are, there's the nature versus nurture, right? So for me, in retrospect, when I look back at that, I'm like, wow, I had to grow up really damn quick. And I met my wife when I was 16 and she was 14, and we just kind of like glombed onto each other

because we both came from pretty broken homes, and we just found each other, and like I've been with her since, right? So there was just a level of having to mature very fast. And when I was in middle school, and I dropped acid when I was like in seventh or eighth grade, I was fucked up. And I'm so glad that I got through that stuff when I was in middle school, because by the time that I was like in seventh or eighth grade. I did, I was fucked up. And I'm so glad that I got through that stuff

when I was in middle school, because by the time that I was 13, 14 had to grow up really quick, I pretty much haven't touched alcohol since. And it's like I got that shit all out of my system and grew up really fast. So the whole aspect of being purantified and having to look after somebody and help out mom and be able to support our house,

that was a huge piece for me just developing who I am as a person. And unfortunately, well, maybe it's fortunate, but I mean, I didn't realize it until really having my son. So I got preentified into some respect, and that makes it hard for me to ask for help now. Like, as an adult, one of the hardest things that for me to do is to ask for help. I can go through all kinds of crazy challenges and people around me won't even know, or if they do, I don't say, hey, I need help.

It's very hard for me to do that. Is that similar for you? Totally. Totally, and it reflects in my business, and it even reflects at home, too. You know, especially after having kids, you realize, you kind of have to ask for help. It's like the village mentality of raising kids.

And so how hard do I go? How far do I push it before I'm just running myself into the ground? And you've probably experienced this. I mean, I will just go until I die, right? And so if it wasn't for my wife being able to step in and recognize the signs of knowing me for 18 years, be like, I know you're pushing it.

Like you're not sleeping. You haven't slept in four days, like you're insomnias bad, because I'll just go. And there's no real, and that's not trying to tut my horn, saying like, I work harder than anybody else. It's actually to my detriment. It's not something I'm proud of, per se.

It reflects in my fitness, sure, but how it manifests in my regular life can be a huge detriment. Like, I will not put the oxygen mask on myself first, in other words. Yeah, I know, I get that. Okay, so you got into lifting weights a little bit later. You said like 13 years old. About 13, 14, right?

When my parents were going through the divorce, it was kind of a thing that brought me some sanity. Okay, so what got you, because you were already exercising, so it wasn't like you just discovered exercise or activity, what was it about the weight training that attracted you and then why did you end up liking it or like running? I thought about this a lot. So with running, you know that you're going to encounter pain, right? Like, that's the kind of, I've talked about this even with therapy before.

It's like, I chose running because it was like, you can't go for a run without knowing that you're gonna encounter some level of pain, like it's just like being able to endure. I really liked weight training because I was able to reach that point of failure and pain faster. Oh wow.

So I've likened it to like doing a drug. I was just gonna say, it's like fast acting drug versus. Totally. So I'm just like, I can get myself there and get to that pain level that I need for that weird twisted massagistic mentality that I kind of had. I could get there really quick. I could get there in seconds rather than minutes. And for me, it was like, didn't think about that, but I'm like, Oh, I'm reaching this point really quick. And it's great. And then I can be done. Oh, did you have any physique goals? or was it just, I'm just gonna go beat myself up every day?

No, I didn't really have much physique goals. I mean, I did get a really good shape when I was in high school. I mean, there's no doubt about it, but that wasn't really a goal of mine. I mean, I didn't really care, but because I was so skinny from running, when I did put on muscle,

I looked super, super ripped. I was just tiny, you know. Okay, so how do you reconcile that with your approach today with exercise? Because you still run, you still train probably hard. Obviously, stay tight on your diet. Is there a point when you recognize in yourself that this is not coming from a good place

and you start to tip over into old behaviors or like how do you manage that and how often does that reoccur for you? Yeah, it occurs a lot where I recognize patterns. But I think the biggest piece with that is understanding what is a coping mechanism and understanding what is real life. And with that, I've been able to have an element of control over it that helps me just understand why I'm doing something so that that doesn't define me, so that just becomes an action.

I am still well aware to this day. If I take breaks from running, I start not feeling whole anymore, right? And that's the mommy issue is coming back, right? That's the me not feeling like I'm earning love. And I've talked about this so much of my wife where it's like, okay, if I have an injury and I can't run, I start getting depressed, where it's like, okay, if I have an injury and I can't run, I start getting depressed, I start getting like, well, you could do so many other things,

you can go ride your bike, you can go do this, you can still have other dreams to cardio, yeah, I'll do it, but it doesn't check that box the same way. So with that, I was able to really recognize, be like, okay, this is something that my brain just craves, but understanding that and being able to have sort of a high level view of it helps me maintain control over that. Where it's like, it's okay for me to still like running.

Right. Like, it doesn't have to leave my life. But I need to also understand that I'm going for a little bit of a fix when I do that. Right. And by leaning into that and understanding, like, I'm not going to let this control me and own me, I'm going to own it. Yeah. Has allowed me to do it with peace, right?

Where if I do need to take a break from running, I can look at things in a different angle and say, okay, I'm going to work in a constructive fashion that's going to help me maybe run better later when I can run again. Now as far as nutrition is concerned, I find it somewhat ironic that I end up being kind of the fasting guy as the guy that was like abstaining from food, right? And people kind of pick on that a little bit. Like don't you think that you've just kind of, have this adult version of your childhood eating disorder?

And in some ways, I'm like, you know, I probably do. But it's also an iteration of the types of people that respond so well to fasting. Like a lot of times they are very one track minded people. People that, you know, if we look at different diet types and we look at okay, they're let's say they're all the same They all amount in the same results. They all end up at Chaloric restriction at the end of the day if we just keep it very simple like that Then it's like why does some people respond so good at fasting and some people not well probably just how their brain ticks

Totally, you know totally the benefits of fasting we've said this many times on the show Which can also be the opposite for some people, is the psychological aspect of it. This is why fasting is found in almost every religious practice. It has nothing to do with fat loss. Totally. Has everything to do with abstaining from an essential need, which is food. By the way, you can practice fasting with technology, sex, exercise, whatever you feel attached to, you can practice, fast thing. I want to ask you a question because I'm connecting a lot with what you're saying.

Did you find your growth, or did you find a lot of growth, personal growth in relationship to nutrition and fitness through teaching others? Because for me, I didn't become as aware as I am now of my relationship with those things until I started treating other people. It's easier for me to care about other people than it was to care for myself. Did you find some leaps in that as you started to become, like, oh, I'm this fitness guy,

I gotta talk about this, I'm teaching people. Oh, for sure. Yeah, no, it's the more that you explain something, you're, there's something happening in your psyche where you're also teaching yourself. You know, and I've definitely found that as I help people, I'm helping myself. And does that sound like a self fulfilling prophecy?

Where am I just doing this to ultimately help myself? I mean, I'd be lying. If maybe that's the case, like maybe subconsciously that is happening. Maybe I want to help people because it also is solving some of my problems, right? But once you're stepping out of your element, it's like you're stepping out of yourself

and being able to help people, you can take a look back at yourself and realize, wow, I also can't be hypocritical. I can't look at this person and instruct and delegate and explain without taking a cold, hard look at myself. Totally. And you have to do that. Otherwise, you're completely inauthentic delegate and explain without taking a cold hard look at myself. And you have to do that.

Otherwise, you're completely inauthentic and your content wouldn't go anywhere anyway because people are gonna see that. If you have integrity, if you have integrity, do you intentionally abstain though then from some of these practices just so you can challenge yourself psychologically? For example, if you know you have this kind of relationship with

You know running do you ever go like you know what? I'm not gonna run this whole month because I need to be able to not run for a month and be okay for Forseeable future in case I do get an inner injury or something happens and I can't do you practice things like that? Okay, 100% 100% and that's and that is come as being a tool in my toolbox so that I know I can be comfortable with that. Because just like, I don't want to be dependent on a drug or I don't want to be dependent on something, I don't want to be dependent on running.

I don't want that to own me. So, I absolutely, yeah, I mean, in fact, I really just picked running back up a lot within the last maybe a year to half or so. Okay, cool. Wow, interesting. Now, back to when you were a kid and a teenager, you're obviously different than most kids.

You're working full time, supporting mom, working out a lot. Most kids don't do any of that stuff. Did you have a lot of friends, where you were a loner, did you get picked on, where you, would you have a tough time fitting in when you were that age? I definitely had a tough time fitting in.

I was the short shorts and hiking boots kid I mean Right there. Yeah, so I was that kid. You everyone knows that kid right? I do have a mallet to no, wasn't that bad, but you know and it didn't like these high tech boots look great with these short Yeah, I can do karate and the best thing is like my with these short short. Yeah, it's totally that. I could do karate. And the best thing is, my wife, I met my wife and I was 16, she was 14, and we both grew up with horses,

and she was like a rodeo girl. So she was like, skirt and cowboy boots are skirt and hiking boots, so we saw each other, we're like, we're meant for each other. And it's something with that, it's kind of funny. Because, no, I mean, I really had like the same two or three friends through, from kindergarten through the rest, all through high school.

But I definitely didn't fit in in school. I was very, I wasn't picked on to the point where like I was bullied, but I always felt like I just didn't fit in. There was just an element where I felt uncomfortable. I didn't really like being in, you know, school. I remember just like when I would have to go to high school because I would have elective classes on campus occasionally.

So like, you know, it would have maybe one elective so I'd have to go like two days a week to school or something. I'd still have to go and report to my independent study teacher. And I just remember like walking up and down the aisles like during break and just literally just like doing 180s like walking all the way in, walking back. And it wasn't like I was a total, total weirdo. I could have had friends, but I just didn't. I just like kind of so I don't understand why I was that way except for the fact that I felt

I just had bigger fish to fry and like social relationships at that point in time just seemed like a waste of time. So maybe it was just an act of maturing super fast because when I was younger, before I had to take on responsibility, I had no problem just mingling and hanging out with friends. But by the time I was like 14, it just literally felt like a waste of time,

which it's not. Obviously, no as an adult now that relationships are probably the most important thing, but it's just a weird experience. Yeah, it wasn't in your world. In your world, it was, you know, providing, helping, providing food on the table and worrying about your, your home life. Totally. You know, hanging out with your buddies, making spit wads or whatever. Fair point. So how does someone like you then, what was the transition then like for you to have grown up like that and be kind of this loner, you know, personality to the fame and attention that you get now? Like was there this weird kind of awkward transition of like this is really weird from I went from the kind of loner kid to now I'm like millions of people paying attention to me.

Yeah. I mean, it's still weird. It's still weird because it's not necessarily what I ever would have thought I'd be. And I never would have thought that people would not give two crafts about what I have to say, right? So, but I also make sure that I don't abuse that because I could see how that could turn into something where it's like, you never listened to me

and now you're gonna listen to me. But now it's something more like, this is cool. Maybe I am being rewarded for my hard work and being rewarded, so I try to view it like that and it's definitely odd like it still feels weird I still what's the term like imposter syndrome right where you just kind of feel like this isn't really real like people don't actually give a crap but they do and it's really cool and it's a really fulfilling feeling yeah is a kid I read that you studied art history in Italy yes another crazy thing that mom on did right it was like so she just flew over Yeah, is a kid I read that you studied art history in Italy? Yes, that's a lot.

Another crazy thing that my mom did, right? It was like, so she just flew over there together? We just, my mom, my sister and I, when I was 13, we went over, we studied, and we lived there for like six months, and she was like, you guys are going to a homeschool, I was in eighth grade, and we went over to Italy and like, we studied abroad, and it was just a cool experience. And part of it, I talked about this, on Chris Williams' podcast, dude, part of the issue there was,

I was a 13 year old boy with a bunch of like 19 year old college kids, and they thought that it would just be so fun to like give me drugs and like, you know, all that's the most rural that part of you do. This is where like, I got a lot of that shit out of my system fast, and it was so, that's kind of a comical side of it. But yeah, I mean, that was just an example.

And I come, I think about it later on and that's a right when things with my mom and dad were getting rocky. And I think my mom was just like, let's, let's just remove ourselves from this situation. And you know, because on the outside looking in, people were like, what about dad? Like how come you and your mom and sister

are going to Italy, like your dad stay in back. And I didn't really think anything of it at that time. I'm just kind of like, no, this is cool. It's a cool experience. I longed for taking this to Italy and we're doing this. And now I look back and I'm like, oh shit, you know what? That was like right in line. That's right when the divorce was starting.

And so there's a lot of other pieces to unpack there. But it was a crazy cool experience. Now, as your sister have similar experience in terms of like, do you guys, do you have a good relationship where you guys have talked about, you know how this has affected experience in terms of like, do you guys, do you have a good relationship where you guys have talked about, you know how this has affected you in terms of like, now as an adult, and is she a parent as well? Yeah, okay.

My sister is a classic overachiever as well. She was, you know, went to the Air Force Academy, as Air Force Captain, got out. She's, she works for, you know, team Rubicon now. So she's, yeah, she's definitely an overachiever. And she and I have talked about this anosium. Like definitely. We've really tried to analyze why we are the way that we are.

My sister is a professional Iron Man triathlete for a number of years. Now she's in insane mountaineer. Like she just climbs the most insane crap. Like she stood the matter horn. She's like, just always, she's just extreme in a completely different way. Whereas I went extreme in this route,

she just went extreme in a way that's just totally different. And it's both, in both of our case, it's our significant others that kind of are the guardrails for us a little bit, because I think without them, we might be a little too extreme. And my sister, she and I have kind of,

she's four years older. So she went to the Air Force Academy right when I was just kind of getting into this point where I was working and I was helping my mom. And I could never figure out for the life of me why she was always super worried about me. So like when she first went off to school, she was like freaking out all the time. Like, what's Thomas going to do? What about Thomas? And I'm just like, I'm totally time. Like, what's Thomas gonna do? What about Thomas?

And I'm just like, I'm totally fine. Like, what do you think? Like, and now I look back and I'm like, ah, okay, I get it. Like she was four years older, you know, from the peanut gallery looking at this stuff. Like, my poor little brother is he gonna be okay, like through the divorce and through all this weird stuff that's going on.

And so we've unpacked that a lot because there was a lot of weird animosity between my sister and I for a lot, because there was a lot of weird animosity between my sister and I for a long time, because I had a lot of resentment, because of how she kind of helicoptered over me, and let me live my life, let me live my life, and now I understand, you know, she just, she's just, and she, I became a security blanket for her.

So through all these coping mechanisms that I developed, she developed somewhat of a codependency on taking care of me me because it made her feel this level of parental control that she didn't really have otherwise, at least that's how I unpack it. So I wanna hear a either 13, 14 or 15 year old story of your experiences with drugs, because I imagine if you can recall something back then,

it was probably, yeah. They're really funny, really crazy, really scary. Totally. Yeah, give me, I mean, when I was like 13, I was probably, they're really funny, really crazy, really scary. Totally. Well, I mean, when I was like 13, I was stoned all the time. I mean, I was just like that. So that just became normal. I grew up in Sonoma.

And if anyone's familiar with Sonoma Count, it's just like what you do for sport. It's just very weird. Like, I mean, there's like, if you've ever been through that county, I mean, there's fucking weed trucks driving by with like shit flying out of them, like full on land, cloud, grams of butts, just like fucking flying out. It's nuts like it's this normal life, you know go up and then like You know up all the way up to Humboldt County the whole 101 corridors just like so I mean

As a kid and then Sonoma It's like you've got winery so you've got that culture. It's like all there is for kids to do Yeah, and I'm fortunate that I did it when I was really young So that was just a functioning part of my like 13 year old life. And then, you know, yeah, did acid a couple of times when I was like 13 years old. And I remember it was always with like the same close couple of friends. So I was never like by myself doing it in a

creepy room or anything like that. But I just remember, I remember vividly like being under this going under this bridge afterwards. I was like down the street from my house, and it was where we had built a tree fort when we were kids. So there was like a tree fort, that was maybe like a hundred yards up, and I just remember this tree fort

always being like symbolic in my life, because as we built it when I was like seven and it was there through high school and stuff like that, and I just remember being there and just seeing like crazy amounts amounts of bushes and stuff enveloping this thing in real time. It's probably my vivid memories as a 13 year old was basically taking acid and seeing my tree fort enveloped by vines and bushes and not really understanding.

And now as an adult, who knows what else I was really experiencing. All I want out of control kid trying to experience something. Yeah, yeah. I felt like you were being enveloped by the world. Probably. Yeah, I was like that. Wow, so okay, so what got you into, I mean, private equity, I couldn't think of a more different space than the fitness space.

Why'd you go there? Yeah, so I mean, if we take a look at, basically I went through a period where obviously I gained a lot of weight, right? So I think to end up how I, or talk about how I ended up there, we have to kind of look at that. So when I was like 17, 18 years old, and when I decided I want to start putting on some muscle, I want to actually do this seriously.

And it became a little bit of a bodied, just more thick thing, where it was like, okay, now I got the bug, and like this was cool, and I wanted to get big. So I tried to put on as much weight as I possibly could, right? So I did, I did pretty good. When I was like 18, 19 years old, I put on like probably 40 or 50 pounds, just like eating like a madman and lifting and really trying and really working hard.

And then essentially what happened is like, how I ended up overweight over the next couple of years is I went from taking this bulk and then not really lifting anymore as I got into my work life. And I was kind of lifting like one day a week but still eating probably if I had to guess like 5,000 calories a day trying to gain weight.

So it was legitimately like a bulk gone wrong and I've likened it to it's like Eric Cartman and the beef cake episode. I guess totally that. It was legitimately. So it wasn't like, and I always make making sure that people know that I wasn't like this obese kid or obese guy that was just a total slob, right?

I came rooted in fitness and my one track mind kind of took me another direction. And again, as I've talked through this, I've realized that it was probably like an element of weird self sabotage in my life because I went where I wanted to gain a bunch of weight. I wanted to kind of revolt against my previous self. But then it's almost like I wanted to become overweight.

It was like a weird, it felt good to just binge and it felt good to just overeat. And it felt good to do that because I felt like I was almost revolting against mom in a way. It was really bizarre because I look back at it and I'm like, why did I do that? I wasn't a stupid kid. I knew that if I ate that much food and wasn't working out, it would all turn to crap. So I ended up convincing myself that I was a power lifter

because I would go to the gym once every week or once every two weeks, lift some heavy stuff and then just eat a maniac. So I ended up crazy overweight. I ended up close to 300 pounds by the time I was like, you know, 2021 and realized, you know, at that. So I got into the private equity world because I was in the healthcare recruiting space first. So I got into like a healthcare recruiting space where I was recruiting physicians, recruiting healthcare executives. So I developed an understanding for executives. So I developed an understanding for how the healthcare system worked and how that whole process worked. After that, I got into what is called an Ancillary Lab Services

company where we were basically providing like, Salary Cordesol testing and stuff to fee for service physicians. So basically, I was ultimately in medical sales, right? That company got acquired by a private equity firm. that's how I ended up in that world. But with that, it was very interesting because that's how I learned to essentially sell to physicians and sell to these healthcare administrative systems, basically understood how to sell biochemistry, because that's what we were talking about all the time. It was like we were some of the early ones implementing what are called MDDC campaigns, where it was like taking physicians and putting them in practice with like chiropractors,

so that chiropractors could also prescribe, we're not legally prescribed, but have a doctor in their office that they could prescribe. And it was a really interesting business, and that's how I learned how to like articulate this biochemistry, I'm like, I'm really good at this. So long story long, that's at a point where I'm realizing, okay, you've probably heard my story

about the Jack in the Box thing, that one's floating around. Okay, so that's how I ultimately decided I needed to lose weight. It's really kind of a funny story. So I was only overweight for a short period in my life, like three years, two, three years. But it was like my weekly thing to go to Jack in the Box and get those Jack in the box tacos,

like those translucent things that I still crave to this day. 20 of those for 10 bucks. What is it about those things? Like, maybe put drugs in the same thing. Dude, it was insanely good. And it's not like that was just a thing I did when I was overweight.

When I was running cross country in high school, I would go eat those after running. So it was like a childhood thing that I always loved those. But anyway, when I was overweight, I would go and get like six you know, six or seven of them or whatever, and I'd eat them usually in the parking lot, and I'd go through the drive-through and then I'd sit in the parking lot and eat.

And at my heaviest, when I was just about 300 pounds, I had pulled out of the drive-through, parked in a stall, and I was eating these tacos, and a friend of mine that's kind of more of a acquaintance drove by, and this is like the important part of the story, how much I've like analyzed it. He was just in a acquaintance so it wasn't a close friend,

but he drove by and he acknowledged that I was there just eating these tacos. And at that moment, I realized that I wasn't really hiding from anybody. It was like this weird epiphany that came over me where this dude that wasn't a close friend, just a random guy that I kind of knew, nonchalantly waving, like, oh, this is what I would expect this 300 pound Thomas to do.

Like, this is life, and it clicked with me all of a sudden, be like, this, I'm that guy. Like, I'm the guy, like, that's, they expect me to be here. So that was my call to action. It was like, I don't wanna fucking be the Jack in the Box guy. Oh, wow. Like, I don't wanna be that dude. So, hot sauce just dripping down.

Yeah. And I, I mean, I have had Jack and Vox tacos since. Like, and I haven't relapsed as a result. But I guess the point is, is that it wasn't someone coming to me and saying, you're going to die if you don't lose weight. And I've talked about this before too, but I made myself type your diabetic in that period of time by as far as fast and blood sugar is. So I mean, I remember being at like a 144, my fasting glucose.

So it just goes to show from like a biochemical side of things, and we have that discussion for a second, how quickly you can fuck your metabolism. Totally. Like massive overfeeding for a short period of time and inactivity, you absolutely can make yourself insulin resistant. So it took me like five or six years

to really get rid of that, even after losing weight. Like the damage that was done there took a long time to unravel. Anyhow, that's how the weight loss cascade started. And because of the industry that I was in, I really was privy to some pretty cool stuff. Like in the world of healthcare, what's called fee-for-service is it's much more what is commonly known today as concierge medicine. You have doctors that for lack of a better term are kind of performance based. Okay, like if you look at the traditional healthcare continuum,

you can get a doctor- They can be paid privately, right? Yep, doctors aren't really incentivized for outcome. And it's a broken system in that way, right? They're like, you patients no matter what. They get patients, totally man. And it doesn't matter because they're getting reimbursed no matter what.

But with concierge medicine, I think it's a great thing because these doctors are actually like, no, I need to get a result. I mean, there's still insurance involved on part of the side. But as far as them actually wanting to keep you on, or you have them on retainer, you want to have a result. So interestingly enough, this was, you know, what, 12 years ago or so, where physicians were like,

hey, actually fasting might be something you want to try. And it was just me being like, hey, I'm going to lose some weight. Like, do you just me being like, hey, I'm gonna lose some weight. Like, do you recommend anything? Like, yeah, you might wanna try fasting. I did it and through the weight really did just fall off of me. Like, it wasn't hard for me to lose weight with fasting because that's how my brain was.

And this is very black and white for someone like you, it's easy. Like, oh cool, just do this and then done. Yeah, especially with how I was wired. Like, I was such like a just laser focused person. So, I mean, I lost like 50 pounds in like the first three or four months. I mean, it lost like 50 pounds in like the first three or four months. I mean, it was really impressive how fast the weight came off. Granted, I wasn't super overweight for very long.

So it probably was easier to come off. And I'm very honest about that. But this was all happening as there was like a liquidation event going off the company that was in. And that's what kind of slingshot at me into what I do now. I had some interstitial stuff there that I did for work in between

after that liquidation event. How did you get shares in the company? Did you just give them to you by working for them or did you buy some? Yeah, so basically just the sales position that I was in, I earned some shares. So I basically took options and basically was able to exercise those options.

Wow, wonderful. Wow. Now here's, I always find this challenging, but you don't seem to be in this category. I always find it challenging when I talk to high performers like you who tend to, who have that laser-focused mind, where you can just turn on light switch. Like this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna do it.

And oftentimes I get challenged because they communicate health and fitness as if they're talking to a bunch of them. Like, oh, this is what you do. Oh, why can't you do it? You just do it. Just turn it on, turn it off, and that's what you got to do.

You don't necessarily do that. You don't talk about it that way. Was it, did you identify like, oh, wait, I mean, average person doesn't respond to you. Or did you start off that way? Have to figure it out. Yeah, I did start off that way. So if you look back and I think I'm having to undo a lot of the damage that I did,

even like seven, eight years ago with my brand, and I say damage and like I think I helped a ton of people. But man, did I live in an echo chamber for what worked for me? And I think I messed a lot of stuff up, right? Like I think I wouldn't undo anything. Like I think I'm becoming known as the guy that was like, hey, I liked Thomas because he's willing to change his mind

and willing to change his views on things for things that make more sense or at least are legitimately backed up. So yes, I absolutely have lived in that echo chamber. But that's sort of a discussion about my way of thinking in my nutritional views, perhaps being more dogmatic. That's somewhat of a different discussion

than what you're articulating here. For me, yeah, we call those the optimized bros, right? The people that are just like, you're talking such fine-tuned stuff, and you're like, no, just flip the switch and just do this. What, not everyone is wired like that. But I think having that period of time when I was overweight and also having somewhat of a sales background,

you have to be able to mirror, you have to be able to have that, you know, as Chris Voss would put it, that tactical empathy that happens just as being in a sales position. And I don't wanna say that my content was created because of that, but I think my skill set with that allowed me to take a look, be like,

well, who's viewing my content? Like, people were viewing my content because I was talking about intermittent fasting and stuff early on, because that's what worked for me. And especially at that time, intermittent fasting really was used more so for people wanting to lose weight. Now it's more of a hack and a tool for people and you see a lot of the fitness community kind of adopting it. But really, I'm like, well, who's watching my content? And you just got to know your avatar.

So I think for me, it was being able to know, okay, well, it works for me because I'm a freak, an understanding that I might be a little bit of a freak and a little bit obsessive, but I am an anomaly. And most of the people here just, they need to understand why this works, how this works, and you need to bring it down to a basic level. They're not experienced, they're not living in this world. Yeah, I mean, look,

you speak path, same thing. Yeah, I think that's your training people in gyms. I think that's your integrity speaking because we all started the same way. Most people getting to fitness have a different relationship with fitness in the average person. I mean, it took me five years to figure that out, at least five years, where I wasn't talking to me,

you know, where I would think, why don't you just do it, just follow this, just do that. That's what I do. But eventually I had to be like, okay, why is this not working for most people? And it's because most people don't view fitness and diet the same way. For them, it's just the way to enjoy their lives and improve their lives. For me, it was life. So it was very different. And so you saying you can go back and say I was wrong.

And here's how I view things now. That's your integrity speaking, I think. It sounds like you really care about helping people. Would you say that's true? Yeah, I mean, I get off on it, man. I mean, that's what drives me. It's being able to, and really since having my son, like I have a son and a daughter, but my son, you know, it's five and a half,

after having him, it changed everything with how I looked at how I created content. Because now, like, I look at my son as a five year old boy, and I look at an adult that's struggling with something, and I can't help but look at that, even angry, frustrated, 40 year old man, and look at him as a five year old boy. That's someone's son.

That person has a mom, a person has a dad, and even though their shell might be this angry, frustrated person, I can't help but be like, look at my son, and he's gonna be a grown up one day. And like, it just changed everything. So now, I don't wanna say I've talked everyone like a five year old, but I understand that when I'm talking to someone

and I'm talking to them about health and fitness, that is a place where they have massive insecurities more than likely. So their shell's gonna go up, their guard is gonna go up, they're gonna be defensive, whether they want to be or not, because subconsciously, they're hurting. I'm like, I got to break through that and talk to the five-year-old in there and help them understand that, like, dude, I get why this is going on, but let me explain what's

happening in your body so that you can actually get excited about this. And that's just, it changed everything, man. I do think that the content prior to me having my son was good, but it was just so dense. And I think I look back at that content and it's crazy. Like there was nothing malicious about it, obviously, but like there was something missing and even like connection. And I'm like, man, like it's so different now. Now was this, would you say like as you were creating and developing content initially,

were you more conscious that other coaches would be looking on and sort of that imposter kind of thing where you're trying to over educate on some level like your audience or were you just more focused on the audience and then you know, had interactions with coaches later. Yeah, that's a really good question. I haven't thought so much about that, but I realized a few years into it that, wow,

my content is actually just like other people, helping other people create content from my content. And in a weird defensive way, it actually kind of made me change my content. And all people are doing is they're just ripping off my stuff. You know, and that's kind of like I was looking at it in like a mouse protecting my cheese sort of thing. So in a lot of ways, it changed my content as a defensive strategy, but it ended up changing it for the better. Because I was like, I don't want to necessarily just be out here helping. I mean, this is going

to sound bad, but I've always had like a distrust and a disgust towards the fitness industry where I'm just like, guys are just like going to just rip off my shit and pawn it off as you're out. So let me go direct. So I start realizing I need to talk to the audience directly and where I was really good was sort of getting that passion across and being able to explain things in a way that we're so passionate that the viewer would get excited about it.

And other coaches would be like, okay, well, I'm not like getting as much out of this. And then now, I mean, now it's at a point where I can do a little bit of both, where I even try to have like a thumbnail strategy where it's like people understand, like this is going to be more optimized, like high level content, and this is going to be more basic content. So now I can have like a, you know, little segments and how it's broken up, but that's a really good question.

Because I mean, other than like the superficial level that I've looked at it, it was almost a frustration. Like I still am frustrated with the fitness industry. No, the most frustrating industry in the world, do you tell us the world what we talk about? They're 99% of the shit troll comments, you realize that. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like you've had to have had interactions with other

people. Dude, they're fucking horrible. Like it's like, it's the people that, like, and then obviously there's good ones. There's tons of good ones. And the good ones are, we're starting to get to a point now in the industry where the good ones are actually floating to the top.

Finally. It's awesome. Because it's, yeah, like you look at the comments, you look at like who's actually talking smack. And if you go and you click on them, you're like, oh, of course, you're, you know, 6% body fat Bob, but let's, you know, or you're, you're Jared or Chad, you know, you're, you're, and yeah, you're,

of course you're gonna talk shit because, oh yeah, look at,, look at your profile, oh, you're nutrition coach. It's always that guy, right? It's frustrating because you never get shit comments from people that you're actually helping. You know the irony in that is, I try and help other fitness content creators

when they're putting their stuff together is to learn how to ignore that because the irony is that person or those people represent such a small percentage of the client. And this was easy for us because we came from the gym, culture first, we actually were training people in person. And when we got introduced to the social media space and now we're on YouTube and all this shit,

and we're reading these comments, and I'm seeing who's responding. I'm going like, that guy never bought training from me. That girl would never buy a truck like, I don't even care about them. They're not even my customer. So why am I giving that any sort of energy? I'm not gonna focus on that.

I'm gonna continue to ignore my peers that are criticizing the way we communicate or we say something, because I'm focused on helping the other 85% that all these people in the fitness space are missing, because they're all trying to impress each other and get into a pissing contest of who's more right about this nuanced thing.

Meanwhile, missing the majority of people that really truly need your help. Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about world dads, we're all fathers here and you said some stuff that, I think we can all relate to. When you had, so your son's your oldest, and then you have a three year old daughter. At what point did you real,

because I can't, it's hard, I think it's almost impossible to explain to somebody who doesn't have kids because it's such a profound, unexplainable, I think, experience. If you care, right, I guess there's people who have kids that don't give a shit, but if you really care to be a good parent, you can't help but have this like crazy. When did it hit you? When you had your kid where you were like, oh, this is way, this is crazy. This is different than more different than anything I ever thought and nothing's ever

going to be the same. When did that hit you? Yeah, there's, okay, the obvious one is like, right when he was born. That's not the big hit, the big hit kind of comes later. That's a big hit. Your son's born, you're holding him, you're like, holy shit, I remember vividly leaving the hospital

with my wife and my wife and I being like, they're sending us home with the same thing. It's harder to adopt the fucking dog. Is that weird? I have to say you thought. I have to come. It's harder to adopt the fucking dog. Is that weird? I have to say thought. I have to come to a home check if I adopt a dog. They have to make sure my backyard doesn't have holes in the fence. And they're letting me leave with this damn thing.

And so we're just like holy crap. I think when we actually brought him home, versus when he was just born and popped out, that was when it really hit. But it was when my son was able to start communicating with me. And there's all these different moments. There's all these different moments. And I'm going to, this is fresh in my mind.

So I'm going to say that something hit me so hard literally last night. My son was having a bit of a meltdown. He hit his sister, did something. But he really wanted me to come outside and play a specific game with him that he was playing. And we said, okay, no, I can't go out and play with you. You just hit your sister, we need to deal with this issue and whatever, kind of a, you know, reprimand him. However, you need to be reprimanded and disciplined.

However, that situation looked. And he starts breaking down and he cries and he looks at me and he's like, I just want you to come play. I just want you to come play. And then he looked at me and the face, he says, you can come play with me and then you don't have to play with me anymore. And it was like, like he was saying it like,

and I'm not like, it's like how he's interpreting things. He's internalizing this as you don't wanna play with me. And don't worry dad, like I'm just asking you to come play with me, then you don't have to play with me. Oh,'t worry, dad, I'm just asking you to come play with me, then you don't have to play with me anymore. My wife and I, we teared up, we were like, gutted, I'm like, it just hit us. It makes you really realize how you think someone is thinking a certain thing, and just what their actual

operating system is teaching them. And this whole situation on the surface, my wife and I are like, we're just dealing with the fact that you hit your sister. Right, right. We're not. But he may interpret it totally different. And he interpreted it as, Dad really doesn't want to play with me. I'm bad. I don't like that. Yeah, don't worry, Dad. I just want you to play with me for a minute, and then you don't have to play with me anymore. And it's like hugged him. And I was just like, dude, I love you so much. I want nothing more than to play with you. I would like to spend my entire day playing with you. And being when you try to explain things to a five-year-old, it's life is full of these moments like that. Whether teaching moments for us, but teaching moments

for our kids, and how we internalize that, and we have a choice to grow from that and be a better human from that, or we can completely discard it. And unfortunately, a lot of people would probably just discard that, even said that, but I internalize that. And I'm like, wow, how do I become a better human out of this? Not just for my kid, but also in how I create content. And people's different states of mind that they're in at a certain point of time might be that of a five-year-old, just because they're emotionally broken or whatever, and you got to be able to do that. But I would say back to your original question, okay, there's all these little moments,

but when he could finally communicate with me, and when he could finally articulate his emotions better, that was a huge thing. I'm like, this is actually a real human being that isn't just whining and screaming and crying when he's upset. He can explain that something's wrong. I'm like, I am actually driving this human to help him become what he's gonna be. With my daughter, it was a little bit different though.

It's just kind of different with boys and girls. Like with my daughter, there was like this very pivotal moment because she was all about mom for like the first two years of her life. All mom, all mom wanted like a stiff arm to dad and kind of hurt me. His dad, I'm like, I just want this bond with my daughter. And you know, it's just very simple where one day my wife was holding her kind of on her hip and my daughter reaches for me.

And she's just like, I want dad to hold me. She's like, reaches for me. And it was like, amazing just the difference. Like holding my daughter and just feeling that embrace. It was that moment where everything kind of changed for me. And just the relationship with a girl versus a boy. I know this is long-winded, but you've probably noticed this too. You have boys and girls who are doing this.

I got two and two boys. He's got two boys, two girls. He's got two. I've got one. He's got both boys and girls. Okay. With girls, I notice I understand what makes my wife tick. Cause you see it broken down at such a core level.

And I'm like all these things that are masqueraded by various defense mechanisms that we put on as adults. And like I understand like my daughter would just have these like outbursts and wanna go beat by herself. And I'm like, wow, and I have conflict with my wife. That's how she is as an adult. Like she might have an out person, and she just wants privacy.

She just wants to be alone. And like, I'm the fix it, fix it. So like, all of a sudden, she's like, chaser, no, no, let's fix this. And she's just like, no, fuck it, leave me alone. And like, never could really understand that. And then with my daughter, it's like, I see this at a such a simple core level.

And then my wife has said in separate occasions, when looking at my son, she understands how I tick now. So I don't know, man, there's so many pieces. I can talk about this stuff for every year. Oh, it's 100%. So I've been telling these guys, you know, I'm really deep into learning about young, so I have two, I have four kids, two or older and two or younger as a big age gap in between them. And I look at my, you know, I'm learning a lot about raising little ones, a toddler and infant.

And through the process, I'm learning a lot about like adults. And I think it's because with kids, with kids, you, especially your own kids, you, like when your daughter is young and she's acting a particular way, you're more likely to be like, well, okay, honey, understand, but you know what your wife does, you're way, you're more likely to be like, well, okay Honey, I understand but you know what your wife does you're like you're an adult you should be acting this way or whatever So with your kid, it's more pure I guess the emotions come out more pure and so it helps you understand

I think adult emotions in your own I I don't think you could become a better dad without becoming a better person. I think it's impossible you have to Yeah, they go hand in hand for sure now you Now, you guys have been together since you're 16. Did you at one point go through a phase where maybe you work gonna have kids and what made you wait this long? Yeah. We weren't even gonna have,

we went a lot of our relationship and we're never gonna have kids. We're never gonna have kids. Wow. And then some more story. Yeah, we just like where, as a matter of fact, we, this is crazy. Like the a matter of fact, you know, we, this is crazy,

like the amount of like density that happened with this. But we found out we were pregnant on, I guess it was Valentine's Day 2017. And my wife presented me with a Valentine's Day card with the pregnancy test in it. She had just found out that morning too. And the sneaky bastard video in my reaction, you know, we were planning, right?

So she gives me this, she found on a Valentine's Day card, I'm like getting ready to go to the gym. And I like, I've got my gym bag and like, I open this, I'm like us, we've on a Valentine's Day card and like it turned white as a ghost. And this video, it's just hilarious. Like I think like my eyes kind of rolled back

into my head for a minute, like total shock. And it's like, I don't like 15 seconds of just being frozen. And then I remember thinking like, well, shit, like, okay, this is happening. So like, force a smile for a minute. Because otherwise, she's gonna get really mad as to impart mentalize and think about it later. And yeah, I mean, it took me a few minutes

before I was just like, you know what, I'm excited about this. I'm excited about this. But we had never, I wouldn't say at that point, we were opposed to having kids. We were just going throughout our lives. But we had a lot of stuff going on. Like our dog had just died four days or three or four days earlier. My dad was on his deathbed and ended up dying two weeks later. So it was like so much stuff happening all at once, or as a dog dies, find out we're pregnant

and then dad dies. That was that whole thing was just a life changing experience right then and there. But yeah, a lot of our life, you're just like, we're good. We don't need that. We were, so I have a similar story too, right? So I ended up having my son much later in life, almost 40 years old when I finally did. Now I have my own reasons why we used to talk why maybe we won't have kids

and that was a common conversation in our house. So leading up before that even, before that situation happened, was there a reason that you both were like, okay, we could have no kids and I'm fine with that. Was there anything in particular like how you each were raised or your thoughts on where you were currently at in your life?

Like what made you potentially not want to have kids back then? I think at that point my wife and I had had realized how just served our childhoods were, and we're like, we don't necessarily want to do that again. We don't want to bring kids into that. And then something changed after she got pregnant. We're like, this is an opportunity to not do that. Totally. So once you're presented with the opportunity or presented with the reality of it, you're like, well, we ain't going back.

So let's just not do that. Because we, and also, I think there's a lot of selfish reasons, right? Like, oh, we just, you know, wanna be able to, we've got four dogs, you know, we've got horses, like, let's just, you know, enjoy our life with our animals. And it's just crazy how the vantage point that it gives you on life once you do

have kids. Oh, yeah, especially late. So my wife and I, we play this game where, uh, that's and you can do this too, because you've been together for a long time. We were two. Uh, what would 25 year old you be as a dad? What are, what are the things when you, when you know your 25 year old self pretend you had the five year old and the three year old, what mistakes would you see yourself making as a father? I mean, it's easy to say there wouldn't be the concessions of the sacrifices like it would be I would even go so far as saying my wife and I would probably have split up. We'd probably you know what I mean? It's like probably like

It just things get hard now and like to have the maturity to understand like we are, no, we're a unit. Like, we don't, now when we have conflict, it's constructive conflict to drive the family forward as a team. If I disagree with her, she disagrees with me, it's not an attack on our identity. It's no, how do we, how do we apply these two things together? Where can there be concessions to ultimately make this family move forward? Because we are a team, we are a unit. I think when you're 25, you don't have that mentality yet.

You're still thinking about yourself. So anything that threatened me as an identity of the 25-year-old was already a struggle. And it kind of, I've kind of felt like my wife and I, there were periods, you know, when we were in our 20s where we maybe had one foot out the door all the time, where we're just like protecting ourselves. Protecting, how do we make sure it's like, you do something wrong, I'm still protected and I'm still okay on my own. We're now, it's like both feet in,

and if shit got really, really bad, I'll deal with it when I deal with it then, because right now it's all about being all in. It's not having one foot partially out, whereas not to say at 25, we were a weak relationship at all, we were really strong, but having kids really puts pressure on wherever those little fragmented joints.

Yeah, on your profile, you have like father on there. So this is obviously something that I mean, you think was I have to do fitness, but I think it has a lot to do with just, I guess growth and being a better person, which is kind of part of your brand. Do you ever communicate to young man about this? Because I feel like media makes fatherhood look like it sucks or like it's terrible. Or you lose a lot, you lose your freedom, you can't do this, you can't do that.

Dad's looks like idiots on TV. Do you ever talk to that at all? Or to a certain degree, I do. Sometimes I get algorithmically pigeonholed? To a certain degree, I do. Sometimes I get algorithmically pigeonholed and I think to my, I need to probably be stronger about just speaking about those kinds of things, even if they don't get the viewership, because eventually they will, right? That's just an algorithmic thing.

But sometimes, yeah, that's something that I have pledged to myself to do, like even if the content doesn't perform, if it feels good and it feels like it's helping, even a few people, I'm gonna put it out there. I don't care. Because yes, you are absolutely right. Like, fatherhood is put in a really weird light. You're either like the cheesy father that is super dopey and super, you know,

like what's his name? Family guy. Yeah. Flanders from the house. Yeah, I was like, Flanders I was gonna say even, you know, got his name? Family guy. Yeah, Flanders from Yeah, I was a Flanders. I was gonna say even you know, what's got his name? Just died recently full house. Oh, yeah, you know Yeah, you know the full house version not the not the Yeah, exactly so you know where it's just like oh my gosh that was such a like a stick in the mud

Yeah, so you see that, and I'm like, I don't really wanna be that, but that's not what fatherhood is at all. It's the most eye-opening experience. And it's so interesting, and you guys, I'm sure you see this, you can just tell someone that doesn't have kids versus someone that does, as a man.

And we also, now I just wanna shout it from the rooftops even more because I feel like families are threatened. This entire societal movement right now is like don't have kids, don't have families. Population collapses a very real thing. And it is our biological inherent need to grow and procreate and have this. And I don't want to sound like a cheesy person saying that but it's like family values are threatened and it's like not cool to have family values in some people younger people's eyes now.

But that means that our generation is left in this weird gray area where we have half the world viewing us as you guys are awesome fathers and half the world viewing you as like why would you guys ever have kids? And being able to explain and teach people that this is something that not only is good for the world and good for your family, but it really is good for you. It's not just sacrifice. I've grown, yes, they're sacrifices, but I've grown exponentially in the last five years of having my son much more than I did in the previous 30 years being alive. Yeah, nothing meaningful is easy. It's just bottom line. Everything meaningful is hard.

And I think when you choose to not raise a child, you lose the opportunity to develop quite possibly the deepest relationship you could ever develop. Because where else can you raise someone from birth to adulthood? And that depth, like that connection, you really can't, I mean, I don't know how you can find it anywhere else. And why would you want to give that up? It's great.

But I mean, it makes sense from a consumer standpoint to tell people not to have kids and tell people to stay single or just be, you know, Peter Pan, because you buy more shit and you're easier to manipulate and you always want the shiny new thing. Cause I don't know about you, but when I became a dad, like all that stuff became way less important. Like I do not care nearly as much about buying stuff and being a consumer than I did when I didn't have kids.

It just, it changes all that in a big bit. Almost instantly I found for me at least. Yeah, no, you just like utility. That's like what it comes down to. Like I care about utility now. I'm like, what is gonna make our family function smoother? And like nothing bright and shiny. Like I don't care about that.

Like it's not, that's not even cool things that you would ordinarily buy to feel good about yourself. It's like if I, my son was to look at something that I bought, like he would question, like, why did you get that? And I'd have to answer that question. Because I, well, you see there's this, like, gap in my manhood. And you know, like, that's such a cool lens though.

I share that all the time when people ask me, like, what's one of the biggest differences now that I have a son? And I was like, I look at things through that lens now that I would have never lived my son. Yeah, what would my son say, or what would he ask if he caught me doing that, or saw me do that, and he asked me about it, and then I had to respond.

I'm like, looking through that lens really gives you this unique perspective on like, oh wow, geez, how would I communicate that of blowing that money, or doing that, or acting that way, or talking about something like that. Like, it's such a unique thing about fatherhood that I didn't see coming and then afterwards it was a big change for me. When you see your five-year-old and three-year-old, we're talking about society right now and how

different the landscape is to just already in this generation compared to our generation, what are you concerned about most and what do you think about most like with their upbringing and how it's going to be different and what do you see is one of the most concerning things? Yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I didn't address kind of the elephant in the room that's probably related to my brand too, is like, what's going to happen? Is he just going to be like super sedentary? Everything's going to go to tech and like, what's gonna happen? Is he just gonna be like super sedentary, everything's gonna go to tech, and like there's nothing I can do about this,

because it's just the way the world is gonna be, and is like, is he gonna be dependent on your technology and pharmaceuticals just to keep them alive? Like I really do think about that. Like that's like what kind of quality of life is that? Then there's the selfish things, like is he going to get to experience the cool things that I got to experience with, you know,

being outdoors and backpacking, and that stuff even going to exist? Is he going to even have a desire to have a family? Is he going to enjoy the thrills of like getting a driver's license and driving a car or is it all going to be like self-driving things? Like is he going to these like visceral things that like I enjoy, but I also try not to look at it from a selfish perspective with that, is we like, you know, there is a season for everything, and if he's gonna grow up in a season where things are different, that might be the way it is.

I don't want him just to share the same experiences I had. Like, I just want him to be happy, but I don't want, and I say him, because I'm speaking about my son, but in my daughter, it's going to be this similar situation, but I think there's gonna be different challenges for men and women as we go forward. And, you know, with my son, but in my daughter, it's going to be this similar situation, but I think there's gonna be different challenges for men and women as we go forward. And you know, with my son, it's like,

just, is there gonna be, is this gonna be a world of just anxiety and depression like our younger generations are kind of experiencing now? Like, is he just gonna be stressed out all the time? Like, how can I give him the tools to be confident in himself and be able to find happiness with himself? And I explain this to him now, and I'm going to continue to iterate as he gets older, that I always say, and I say to other people too, if you cannot be happy in a room with nothing

in it, then you have work to do. And what I mean by that is, you need to be able to be happy with just absolutely nothing and sitting happy with yourself, right? And hopefully, I can instill that in him where he just kind of learns, okay, I need to look inside and I need to feel happy with what I'm accomplishing because that's where that true dopamine hit comes from your satisfaction with yourself. And then with my daughter, I look at the situation like, well, is, I don't even know what to think there,

because things are just so bizarre. I guess she, like, does she need to become stronger? Does she need to take on the roles that my son would normally take on more? It's just to survive, just to defend. It's bizarre. I can relate with my son more because as a man, I look at him like what's going to happen to you as a man? My daughter, I'm like dumbfounded. I don't even, and I don't wanna sound totally pessimistic about the way the world is going.

It's not like my intent. I think there's positive attributes to things that are happening, but it's just a bizarre time to be growing up. Oh, yeah. 100%. It's hard to be prepared for it because it changes so, so down quickly.

You choose the homeschool. How come? Well, I mean, there's the logistical reasons that we travel a lot, right? There's that's a simple logistical reason. But I also am a firm believer that I think my kids are going to learn a lot more traveling with us and seeing the world than they ever would in a conventional school system. You know, and we're the process of finding like hybrid school options where they can still go to school a couple of days per week, but they're not going to be true. If we take them out and we go go somewhere.

Right. So I really think that I want to teach my kids how to care for themselves, how to be entrepreneurs, how to make money while providing value to people, but also just have real world experiences. I look back and I might shoot myself in the foot for saying this, but I mean, like the conventional school system is just kind of busted. Like I feel like, that's not weird, just talking about it. It just doesn't make sense to me. Like I'm just like, I spent so much,

and then I look back at my childhood, like escaping from preschool, and shit like I'm like, I've been like, my mom did teach me from day one, like if everyone's going this way, go that way. You know, and that was like, just how I've grown up. So I look at more and more people are homeschooling now. Obviously, we're finding it difficult to even be able

to get our son into hybrid charter school options because there's wait lists. We're not the only ones thinking this. So it's a real thing. And the good side of that is I think there's going to be a lot more options available for people that are homeschooling. Because when we were kids, the homeschool kids were kind of the weirdos. I don't think that's the case anymore. I think homeschool kids are like, oh, your parents are out of the box thinkers.

Cool. Yeah, and there's a million and one different ways to do it. I used to think that you stayed at home and your mom that gave you books and acted like the teacher did in the classroom. But I had some clients years ago that homeschooled and they totally educated me and they're like, no, it's like you facilitate and you organize it

and you make it, you can make it look so many different ways. And I said, well, what if your kid hates math? Like, how do they gonna learn math if they hate it? So, well, you know, our son hates math, but he loves cars. So we teach him about the ratios of the gears and the engine and the pressure and this and that. I'm like, you know, blight bulbs going off for me.

I'm like, holy cow, like, of course, like if you love cars, you're gonna learn math that way way better than you would sitting down with somebody trying to force something, you know, down your throat, which, you know, so, I mean, I, my younger ones were probably gonna do the same thing. That's why I say that. Do you guys, so you're looking to hybrid systems? And what do you guys do on those off days? Do you take them out and try to, you know,

like do you pick a topic or do they lead it like, hey, they're into this. So let's go look at this thing over here. Like how does that work? Yeah, so I mean, we're fortunate enough, you know, we we live in Carmel, it's a beautiful area. My son's super into the water, super into the ocean. So, you know, a lot of times like once a week we'll go down and like tide pool and like teach him about, you know, animals in the ocean, teach him about we'll go down and like tide pool and like teach them about, you know, animals in the ocean teach them about sea life teach them about tide pools And he's a super into that the kids probably gonna be a marine biologist like he's just so into it So we also leverage where we live to try to like give him experiences that other kids might not have You know my daughter's three so she's not really she's into anything right now

So you know my son also, you know, we have horses So we just like teach him a lot about animals and teach him a lot of that. And at five years old, it's just teaching him about life right now. We still have a fair share of, yes, there's some really cool programs like ABC, mouse and stuff like that that are interesting things where for 15, 20 minutes, yeah, he can go on a tablet and learn some stuff that's a the more fundamental like basics. But we also, you know, we spend a lot of time up in Tahoe. So I mean, learns a lot of different things up there. So the kid is just going to be very, very well versed in different experiences. And, you know, we travel a lot. So it's like, you know, some

goals like we say, we have one to year, we want to do an international trip where we spend three or four weeks and really like immerse them. Like, you want to learn about the pyramids? Let's actually go to Egypt. Now, granted, I mean, that's not necessarily realistic for everybody, but, you know, if we take one solid trip and we say this is going to be the one international trip, I mean, that's not that economically out of reach if you really think about it. Like, you're not going on multiple vacations.

Most people when they say, okay, I'm gonna go on vacation for spring break, go on vacation over summer and winter break. Like, okay, well if we pick one good destination, we actually immerse ourselves there for like three weeks and let them learn. So that's kind of a goal that we have right now. How do you guys manage the tablet?

I always like talking to fathers that get young kids right now and and and have been around now obviously tech. How do you guys manage that right now? You know, I don't want to say we're we're loose with it because we're not but we we do come from the school of thought that the more that you fight against something the more they're going to really try to get it and want it. So I think the tablet is something that it needs to constructively be put in place. I think, and Peter Etia talked about this, like anything with screen time, it was a really interesting study that he pulled. It was like, anything with screen time as long as you are doing it

with them, and you are lifting them up through the process, and it is a learning experience, and it's a bonding experience, it's different than giving you to them to babysit. Right. It's a tool rather than distraction. So we really are careful about that. We don't just throw games willy-nilly. The one time that we will let them play on their tablet is if we're on like a long flight. And we try to preserve it. It's just so that if it's like white noise right there. It's such a hack just by the way what you just said. Oh my God, try flying with two little kids.

It's how we, it's one of, because I think we use it in a similar fashion, it's a very powerful tool when you need it like that. Because we don't abuse it, and he doesn't get to just watch cartoons on it whatever he wants, it's normally educational or interacting with us, and it has, we have small windows, but then when we also get on a four and a half hour flight,

like we just did, not just recently, and you know, a little bit of that time, if he gets restless, we can put that in the now he's,'s now he's good and I think that when you use it judiciously like that it has that powerful fact where I have my other friends their kids they can use it at carp I mean whenever they want and they're on it all time and then they get over it on the playing flight within a half hour hour because it's something that's you usual in their life so I think that's a smart strategy. Any plans on another one? No, my wife actually had a,

history wrecked me last year anyway, because she's got some autoimmune issues. Oh, okay. She wouldn't care about me saying that. She's public about it. But it's, yeah, so that's definitely out of the equation for us. But we've talked about, you know, maybe in a few years, like we don't know,

like if we really do miss the baby stage, consider adopting. But I think, you know, we're good with two. We got the boy, the girl, like, you know, we're, yeah, and you just got out of the woods. I mean, three years old, still hard, but, you know, the first year and two was like, it's nuts.

Yeah. I got to go. What's your favorite spot in Carmel? Where do you like to eat and go down there? We go down the woods all the time. There's a place, a symbol place called the Village Corner. You know, that place in Carmel. I love that place because they will just modify anything

and they don't care. So like I can like pick thing, I can be that total pain in the ass and just be like, can you give me that with that on it and that, they're super cool. So that place is great. There was a great place called, they got rid of their gluten-free pancakes now.

So like my wife with her autoimmune issues can't have gluten, it really flares her up. So there was a place called KADES place that had amazing gluten-free pancakes, but just in the last couple of months they stopped serving them. Black. Yeah. Tuck House is really good.

Was it Pords in the Forest or Fords in Forest? A couple I haven't had yet, okay. Yeah, that one's really good. Vesuvio is good, if you like pizza. Yeah. Yeah, this like, I mean, it's like a... So good. There's a grocery store in Monterey called El Royce. Yeah. Yeah, this like, I mean, it's like a so good. So good down there.

And then there's a grocery store in Monterey called El Royce. Even the El Royce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do that place is like, like their hot bar is unreal. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, this has been great, man. I mean, I really appreciate you coming on the show and opening up a great conversation.

I think we all have a lot in common. And you definitely seem to be one of the good people in the fitness space. It's not a lot, but I think you're seem to be one of the good people in the fitness space. It's not a lot, but I think you're definitely one of them. So, appreciate it. I appreciate what you do, man. Thank you. Thanks for coming on, Joe.

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