Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2192: Dr. Jordan Shallow & Dr. Adeel Khan

Episode Date: October 26, 2023

Catching up with the Muscle Doc. (2:40) Introducing Dr. Adeel Khan to the audience. (9:00) How big of an impact does combining their forces make for an athlete? (13:27) At the end of the day, the right compound needs to get to the right place. (15:31) How to regenerate tissue using stem cells and the myths surrounding them. (18:39) Explaining the world’s first reversible plasma gene therapy. (27:04) Intersecting professional sports with medicine. (36:35) The cutting-edge science around intranasal insulin. (47:03) Looking at practicality and real-world evidence. (49:54) Understanding the limitations of what they do. (54:42) How do you know when to correct a movement pattern issue with an athlete or not? (58:10) Is there any tech Jordan appreciates? (1:11:33) Understanding at a skeletal level how muscles protect your body. (1:16:55) Why principles are the core of what informs better research to be done in the first place. (1:19:23) Is creatine the ultimate longevity supplement available over the counter? (1:27:23) Why 8-week hypertrophy studies are dumb. (1:28:48) The impact of his Pre-Script courses. (1:35:33) Why Jordan loves working with athletes the most. (1:38:21) What sport presents the most challenges with load management? (1:43:15) Related Links/Products Mentioned For a limited time, NCI is offering their comprehensive Coaches Cheat Sheet at no cost, so it's free! Go check it out here.  October Promotion: MAPS Bands | The Skinny Guy ‘hardgainer’ Bundle 50% off! **Code OCTOBER50 at checkout** Coach's Field Guide | Pre-Script® Level 1 | Pre-Script® Courses Yamanaka factors and their importance in aging research Minicircle Gene Therapy Clinic - Genetically Enhance Your Life Crossover Health Homepage - Harvard Football Players Health Study Uncanny valley - Wikipedia Intranasal insulin - PubMed Treatment with Intranasal Insulin May Improve Verbal Fluency and Motor Function, Early Study Shows Sidney Crosby and trainer Andy O'Brien worked their way up together Vite App - Indiana University Athletics Mind Pump #2187: Why Building Muscle Is More Important Than Losing Fat With Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest(s)/People Mentioned Jordan Shallow D.C (@the_muscle_doc) Instagram Adeel Khan, MD (@dr.akhan) Instagram   Novak Djokovic (@djokernole) Instagram Cory Schlesinger (@schlesstrength) Instagram Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (@drgabriellelyon) Instagram David Sinclair (@davidsinclairphd) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, MIND, with your hosts. Salda Stefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode, oh this was a good one. We had two doctors on, Dr. Jordan Schallow. You might know him on Instagram as the

muscle doc. He's the really buffed power lifter who's also super, super smart. And Dr. Adil Khan, you might not know him, but he is one of the leading researchers and doctors with futuristic medicine. I mean, stuff you're going to see, he's doing now. You're going to see being done in 10 years in fact in today's episode We talk about of course strength training of course training methodologies, but then we get into like some incredible advancements and how you can treat yourself for chronic diseases peptide therapy stem cell Therapy platelet rich plasma, but really what doctor a deal Khan is doing platelet-rich plasma, but really what Dr. Adil Khan is doing, nobody else is doing right now.

He's an expert in musculoskeletal medicine, pain medicine, and regenerative medicine. In fact, today's episode was a lot about how to regenerate the body, how to improve longevity, how to reduce your biological age, basically make yourself feel more vibrant and healthy. And of course, Dr. Jordan Schalo, one of our favorite strength training experts. He's also the creator of the prescript certification, which is exceptional. So you can find Dr. Jordan Shallow at the muscle doc. And you can find Dr. Adil Khan at Dr. a Khan.

A Khan is AKH, a N. Now this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. We're going to talk first about NCI. NCI is a certification course that teaches coaches and trainers how to become more successful. In fact, right now, they're giving away a coaches cheat sheet. This is going to show you how to get your clients to adhere to the plan that you've set out for them. It's an all-in-one resource. It's totally free. We're good friends with NCI, the people at NCI. So they're giving you this to our listeners for free. You can get it at mind pump, sorry, you can get it at NCI mind pump dot com forward

slash C C S. Once again, it's NCciminepump.com forward slash CCS. We also have a sale going to this month. Maps, bands, is half off, and the hardgainer bundle of programs is half off. You can find them both at mapsfitnessproducts.com, but you have to use the code October 50 for that discount. All right, here comes the show. All right, Jordan, always, always a blast

having you on the show been too long Been too long and you brought someone with you a deal Dr. Conn. I'm his assistant Most qualified assistant ever So first off Jordan how you been good man? Yeah, it's nice to be back Bay Area always an nostalgia to be in the Bay Especially in here, but yeah, life's crazy. That's awesome. So you guys are like my canary on the coal mine. But I have to ever, I think I'm busy. I come talk to you guys.

I'm like, I got another gear there somewhere. I get to go great, man. You don't think one place for longer than like 10 days? No. All over the place. Yeah, it's been a while, like a couple of years, man. Been on the road, lived on the road consistently for, I mean, it's been coming on like five years.

Yeah. Five years rocking up the air miles. So yeah, for sure. So you yourself slowing down anytime soon and calling a place. It's tough, man. Like, you know, there's kind of two ends. And you know, one side, I'm sure we'll talk about today

on the Concierge Medicine side, which kind of keeps you running, but, you know, we also have like prescript in the education side, which is, you guys probably know, benefits from being in one place more often. So it's kind of balancing side, which is, you guys probably know, benefits from being in one place more often. So it's kind of balancing like, you know, I have a minute position owning an education company, which is crazy because like I hate it school. But like, I think there's always, there's value in skin in the game, right?

Like the stuff we teach are the principles that I use when I work with pro athletes. But I have to work with pro athletes, like espousing this, you know, this information from someone's basement is less valuable because it's, it doesn't show that there's inherent risk. There's a lot of like academic chicken hawks that are sending people out in the world with information that hasn't, that they're not abiding by and they're not accepting the risk and consequences of what they're teaching, right? At the, at the level of the end user.

So like, for me, it's a fine balance as like a founder and a business owner in the education space to have tried and battle tested the stuff that the principles that I'm teaching at the highest level, with the highest stakes. So it is a tough balance with a digital business that is based off of, it's based off experience, based off credentials, it's based off of trust in the education space, and gaining that trust by, you know, being out in the world and working with athletes all over, and then also being able to fall back and be consistently on meetings and being like an active part of the business and developing

and growing the business. So it's been really hard like finding that fine balance and like I'm a really good team that helps take care of the stuff in a more static nature. The stuff that has to be done weekend, weekend, week out while I'm on the road. But yeah, it's a difficult thing to balance because they're in complete opposition with one of them. Well, it's a lot of work for sure, but it also makes you so valuable because there's data, there's information that you can pull from studies and test groups.

Then there's applying it in the real world and working with people. And when you combine that experience with data, that's where you get the best information. And it's just, it's a lot of work, but very few people can do it like you can. So we appreciate, by the way, a lot of incredible comments from people taking your courses.

Always. Saying it's one of the best courses that they've done in the space. So great job. I appreciate it man Yeah, it's not an easy space. No, no, it's it's competitive and you know, even that pose a challenge is like we'll run a 16 to 20 weeks a master and I'll be in 20 different locations like I've taught a lecture I was talking to my partner about this the other day. I taught a lecture at every hour of the day given the time zone So I've taught it three in the morning and London.

Oh my God. At 5.30 a.m., well, I've taught it five a.m. this morning, but as I travel around, I still keep up with teaching the live lectures, right? Because these things update, and we tough to talk about current trends, and we have to talk about emerging research, and we have to talk about how this fits into

like a biomechanical model that already exists. Like there's immutable principles that we teach that allows people to start to take in and synthesize new and emerging trends in the industry. So you know, I've committed to not making it an evergreen course and making it something that I teach on the fly. And I think for as long as I own the company, we'll always do that. But like I've taught from a cave in Turkey. I've taught from a panda express. I got held up in sunny Isles, Florida,

while teaching a lecture. Some guy was sticking me up for cash. What? No. They called it the mick lectures, because our level two courses are more advanced not every biomechanics course. And I'm literally getting like shaken down for cash.

No, while I'm sitting in the McDonald's in sunny Isles. Everyone's like, like, is he getting robbed? Right? What the fuck is out of it? What? Why are you alive, or is it? I'm alive, or no? No way.

We're gonna see what? Yeah. This guy's like, I'm like, yo, dog, like, I don't have it. I can literally get my hands in the air. And I'm like, yeah, so the rib cage. I mean, like, it's wild. I mean, I've taught for a long time. Bro, I can't believe that.

I mean, Willah meds office in Woop headquarters. I did a podcast with Will and I'm like, hey, I know you're the CEO of this like billion dollar company, but I really got a user office. And so he's like, yeah, sure. So I'm like in Will's chair, like it is office overlooking like downtown Boston. Yeah, it's been fun.

But yeah, there's an accountability that I keep to myself. Like, look, we got to keep this current. We got to keep it relevant. The only way I can show that is like, and I sell people, you know, sometimes the quality is not. You know, we have a studio and back in Toronto and we'll film in there when we can, but I tell people at the jump, like, sometimes it's going to be laptops.

Sometimes I'm going to have like some guy shake and be down, but I do that to keep myself accountable to the things that I'm teaching. Bro, please tell me you're journaling this or logging it because there's a book here, dude. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's one hot piece of, I mean, I've written a few, I've written three of our textbooks already,

but the one I want to write is like, if there's a potential exit in our future, yeah. I remember being in Australia three in the morning, I got trapped there during COVID, so the lecture time did not work out at all. So two, three times a week, I was up at two, three in the morning and a fucking cockroach dude,

like an Australian sizedsized cockroach, ran across the camera. So you just see this like men in black, tight, alien, and dude, I had my headphones on with microphone, and I literally sat on like the, the, the fucking hate. I'm better now, I sat on like the, the kitchen island, 10 feet away. They could barely even see me.

And I was like, so the next slide, if you were to see it, because I'm not going to be like, I fucking computer, and I just like, that is, it's been wild. That's right. That's right. So you're gonna put together like a real,

and like, keep all the lectures. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's not it. So tell us about who you're bringing with us, and I love that from... So special guests, I mean, especially like I talked about on the concierge medical side of things, there's no one who does it better in a collaborative fashion

than Dr. Adil Khan. So Adil and I have been colleagues for like three, four, five years now. We got connected just to the sports world. It's like a hard guy to get after. Like those in the know know a deal and what he does in the regenerative medicine space, branching into longevity in a pretty aggressive fashion.

So yeah, I mean a deal, you probably do a better elevator pitch. I usually, that's the nicest thing I've ever said about you. That's so, I'll stop before it takes a turn. I was just letting you finish. I'm like, I'm blushing right now. So, no, but what he said is so important is basically like not just being in the basement,

but being a practitioner of what you're actually doing. And that big problem with the longevity and anti-aging space because it's becoming such a hot topic, there's all these guys who are just scientists and lab geeks essentially, but they're not actually doing real application. So I'm a clinician scientist, meaning I'm doing research,

but I'm also doing clinical translation, where I'm actually helping people and actually applying real world technologies. So initially, like he said, we started out in sports medicine where we're doing regenerative therapies, which are basically just trying to restore repair tissue back to a previous state. Like most people have probably heard of like stem cells by now or platelet rich plasma, but we just kind of have higher quality and we have different kind of levels of that

stuff. So it's not just the same generic things that everyone else has access to. And so that's how we got connected because we worked on some elite athletes and getting them back to playing faster and how can we craft like a narrative where we can get them without surgery because most team doctors like people think,

oh, you're like the Miami Heat Doctor. So you must be the best. But the reality is they're maybe the best surgeon. So they're really good at cutting, because they're orthopedic surgeons, that's their job. But they're not necessarily good at actually injecting or repairing tissue or regenerative medicine, which is like cell therapy.

That's different. That's a different specialty. And you have to know that stuff inside and out. And that's being a specialist in that field, and that's what I am. So that's what I focus on, stalling gene therapy, and then we're also doing some tissue engineering work. But the three of those together is really

what the field of regenerative medicine is. How did you get into that? Like, how did you, because people like, okay, I want to work with like high-level elite athletes and whatever. And how did you get into that? It was, I mean, I guess it was Dr. Tony Galia. He was kind of like the pioneer of platelet rich plasma. He was a guy who actually pioneered that technology. Like PRP is old now, but like 20 years ago, he was the only one doing it.

And he was the first one who started it for musculoskeletal conditions. So he treated like tiger woods, like Mike Tyson, like a lot of Alex Rodriguez, like a lot of big names. And it was because he was the guy doing PRP who started it all. So he was basically his claim to fame was like, I can get people back faster with injuries without having to do surgery or even just back faster. If they have like a tear, he can get them back playing in a couple weeks. And people are like, how's he doing that? people back faster with injuries without having to do surgery or even just back faster, if they have like a tear, he can get them back playing in a couple weeks.

And people are like, how's he doing that? And it was just this whole idea that we can use your own bodies kind of plasma to heal itself faster. But now the technology is evolved with stem cells and now with gene editing and gene therapy. And there's so much more that we can do that. He could like back then that was the only option. So he's still just doing PRP, which is great,

but he's also in his 60s. So I kind of the guy now innovating and kind of bringing the next tier of technology to the masses. And then you guys met because you guys worked on the same athletes. Yeah, collaborating with athletes, like, you know, I think a deal is probably one of the best clinicians

on the more conventional medical side of things, like slightly more invasive at understanding scope, and knowing when something is a functional issue over a structural issue. And I think that's where the partnership works really well when we co-manage pro athletes. It's like, I know when to draw the line and be like, look, this is a structural issue that can't be out functioned. And the line might be, the case by case basis, blurred a little bit towards him or a little bit towards me. But I know when, because people look at an injury

and there's two things, there's injury and tissue damage. And most people think of that Venn diagram as a circle, where we can operate pain free in the presence of tissue damage and sometimes we can can, sometimes we can't. So knowing how to dissociate how much of the pain that's slowing them down is as a byproduct or is a byproduct of tissue damage. It's like a key differentiation to make.

And if the tissue damage is so that I look, I can't do anything with it, right? An ankle, a disc, a shoulder, a labrum, a cervical spine issue, knowing where the limits of my scope are and knowing when to dish the rock to him and vice versa. All right, let's see me add. So Jordan, you're one of the best at, I guess, I would loosely call correctional exercise. You're exceptional at what you do.

You're also extremely honest, maybe do a fault. So what, how big of an impact does what, what Dr. Adil Khan does on getting someone to move better and faster? Because you apply your correctional exercise, which, you know, we're somewhat versed in. We've worked with specialists in the past. We've worked with clients. It's exceptional. It's amazing. There's no, you don't have to use any medicines or surgeries.

Correctional exercise applies to a lot of situations. But then those situations where I got to get there faster. You're a pro athlete. Yeah. Correctional exercise, but I got to play in a week. Or correctional exercise is going to work because, like you faster, you're a pro athlete. So yeah, correctional exercise, but I gotta play in a week, or correctional exercise isn't gonna work because like you said, there's a tear, or there's something that needs a heel

that this isn't gonna necessarily fix. How big of a difference does what he does do to somebody when you combine forces? Oh yeah, I mean, it's non-linear, right? It's exponential, like it's a logarithmic relationship. So like if you look at scaling the rehabilitation, it's not like it expedites across a linear curve. It's literally an inflection point in a hockey stick, right?

Because you can make the classic, you know, non-invasive treatment for a lot of these things. Still, unfortunately, in a lot of cases, is like a glucocorticoid, a cortisone, which is degenerative and catabolic, it's cartotoxic, which is degenerative and catabolic, it's carotoxic, which means it actually eats away at the cartilage.

Yeah, so literally, exactly the inflammation signal, who I feel better, but now the signaling for healing's gone too. But, classically, in kind of my world, those things were depending on the severity of tissue damage, kind of a silver bullet, because if you can give you, except the risk that comes with it,

it gives you a window to start to hopefully improve function. Because you can then move the way that you need to to get new movement patterns and stuff. Exactly. So it's that, but rather than having the catabolic degenerative factors, it has anabolic growth factors, right? So now it's like you're getting the anti-inflammatory results of a cortisone injection, but you're getting it by a natural means of signaling, and you're actually getting tissue to regenerate on the back end. So that's where you start to really hit that up, Tick. Okay, so you have a lot of experience working with athletes,

obviously before meeting him and working with Dr. Diel working with some of the stuff. Were you shocked at first? Because you know what to expect. You've worked with so many people like, okay, this should get better in this period of time. Were you like, what the hell? Yeah, I mean, I had, in the regenerative field,

I had some personal experience with like, the peptides and things like that. Nothing to like the level of technology that we're dealing with now. But, you know, in the research, she started to read about the viability and efficacy of some of these things. I think it's one of those things where unfortunately,

it becomes in some respects like practitioner specific, right? Like you do need to and I've watched and do this, you know, X number of times, you know at the end of the day The right compound needs to get to the right place. Right. These are usually site specific So like getting to it's really cool getting to watch him with a diagnostic ultrasound Usually has like an ultrasound technician with him guiding You're watching that sick. And so like, if you ever pulled a paint chip off a door and like, oh, that was satisfying.

It's like watching on the screen, like just the needle going and we've done a few now where we'll do multiple rounds for more complex cases and we'll be able to see like in correlate, from like I can correlate from a performance standpoint like an increase of endurance or an ability to tolerate intensity or fuck even in more advanced cases,

you start to see in short amounts of time an increase in velocity at that joint, which is crazy because that's kind of how stimuli scales. It goes endurance intensity velocity as we get into sports, we start to talk more about timing. Like in the matter of what just recently and I won't name names in this case, but in the course of what two and a half weeks

between Miami and Toronto, you saw a ligament in the wrist, because like more or less completely healed. Like, and like it was, so I went, that's like a three month, two months. They told him he needed surgery and they said there's no other option. Yeah, and they said,

not to try to shoot. And that's the MRI and that's the problem with diagnostics in general. And this was kind of my claim to fame, I guess I would speak. So I treated a guy named Muhammad Alibar, who is a rich, he's a rich, just man in Dubai. So he owns a six tallest buildings in the world. And so he owns a British Khalifa too. And so he had this shoulder issue for like 20 years. And so they did Cortezone, didn't work.

They said, okay, just do physio because there's nothing else to do. He's literally a physio for 20 years. And so they did Cortezone, didn't work. They said, okay, just do physio because there's nothing else to do. He's literally do physio for 20 years once a week. And then we got connected through Jordan. And so he flew me down and then we did an ultrasound. We found some small terrors and then we fixed it with the regenerative stuff. And he was just blown away.

And his wife had something similar too and I was able to fix her too. So he was happier, like if he fixed his wife, then he had them by himself. And did it be clear, this is not his pain relief, this is actually, yeah, it's perfect. He's still good. Now, it's just BPC-15.

So that's the one I'm familiar with. I've used it, is that where you, is that what you, no, we use, typically use exosomes or stem cells or PRP, depending, and we mix it with peptides, because peptides have a synergistic effect and they target different signaling pathways and work with the exosomes or stem cells to facilitate healing and regeneration. So a lot of times I'll mix BPC 157 and TB4 with my regenerative molecules to facilitate

the healing and regeneration. And sometimes you'll do it in surgery. What? Wow. How are you getting the stem cells? So the stem cell manufacturing and sourcing is really like an intricate, like there's a lot of details there But the gist of it is that you have to know how to select the right donors But you also have to know how to grow the stem cells properly and that's the biggest problem with a lot of these like you guys

Probably heard of Columbia and Panama and a lot of these people going to those places and the problem is like There's because there's a lot of regulation over there. You don't really know what you're getting and like just because Don't go wrong. Yeah, exactly. Or just because some celebrities endorse it, they're promoting it. They're like, you know, they're like, this is the best place ever. It's just, to me, that's predatory marketing.

Because you're not actually talking about the science, you're just talking about the results. So to me, I'm always talking about the science. It's like, how do we grow the stem cells? How can we enhance them? What's the culture medium? And there's all these details that we go into to make sure we're having the best quality stem cells.

And the way we do that is we test the cell viability, meaning we make sure they survive when we actually inject them. And then we actually have a second generation of stem cells. This is really cool technology. So basically there's a guy named Professor Yamannaka. He wanted a Nobel Prize like eight years ago for genetic reprogramming. So it's pretty crazy, but basically you can take any cell in your body, and you can turn it into a naked stem cell. So you could take any muscle cell, any somatic cell in your body, and you can make it basically into an embryonic stem cell state, which is pretty crazy.

That's basically telling you your body has this innate ability to heal cells in all cell, any cell in the body. And so it's called the Yamannaka factors, and basically if you overexpress those Yamannaka factors, you can create any embryonic stem cell, But the problem with embryonic stem cells, they're too strong. They can cause tumors because they have uncontrolled proliferation. So this is called induced pluripotent stem cells, IPSCs. And no one can figure out like, how do we use IPSCs

clinically without causing tumors? But they were good models for studying different diseases. But in the last few years, what we figured out was we could actually gene edit these IPSEs to prevent uncontrolled proliferation. So they're called gene-edited IPSE cells, and then you can have different cell lines from that. So that's the technology that we've licensed out,

and we basically have gene-edited IPSE derived MSCs, which are mizankal stem cells, and basically we can use those for specific issues. So we have cell lines for osteoarthritis, we have cell lines for neurodegenerative conditions, we have style lines for like diabetes, so you can have specific style lines for specific conditions.

Let's back up for a second, because some people might be like, all right, what's going on here? Okay, so when you start with a basic dimension, a blueprint, a Blake Slate stem cell, that means it can turn it into essentially any other cell. So if you need regenerative cells, for let's say this, for let's say, myelin sheaths, right? Let's say you're dealing with MS,

or you mentioned arthritis to help rebuild and build backbone or joint, done properly. Apparently, these stem cells can then turn into the cells that are needed to regenerate. That's the sense of this. Yes, in a nutshell, right? Exactly. But the problem is with a Gen 1, let's call it a Biblical core stem cells, which is where most people are still using. We still use them too, but the problem with Gen 1 is they don't stay in there very long. They're just, they get taken up by your immune system and they're cleared up. So they're mainly just doing what's called paracrine signaling. So they're sending signals that help to regenerate a little bit of tissue, but they're mainly just anti-inflammatory. So if you really want to regenerate tissue,

it needs a constant flow of blood supply, and it needs to be protected from the immune system. So the way we do that is we use 3D bioprinted hydrogels. So these hydrogels, the stem cells are embedded into the hydrogels, and then you can inject them, or you can put them in arthoscopically, and then you can actually regrow your tissue. Let's stay there. Okay, why is this not on the cover of every magazine?

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because this is like, we're just from our own show. I know, I know outlet. Exactly. We're just one of the most negative. I know, disruptors. Dude, I was reading a paper just two weeks ago, like there was, I mean, just like cerebral palsy, which is like a devastating condition for like, you know, Ivy Stem cells, there's like, it's published.

It literally made the girl walk again. Like, imagine if that was a pharmaceutical, it would be on every headline. Right. And so that's a problem. Is that why? Because we can't fucking patent it in one completely. Exactly.

Yeah, exactly. That's why it comes down to. And that's the same problem with peptides. Right? You guys know peptides probably better than most people. Why are peptides still illegal or like not allowed, right? Because they're not patentable. And so because-

A compound pharmacy can make them for you. Yeah. But if you go to your average doctor, they don't even know what peptides are. And they'll say that shit is dangerous. Don't do it. Don't use that set. This is even crazy. Well, you just talked about something though. That's interesting because I'm somewhat loosely

familiar with how stem cells were used before. And you mentioned something which was the fear that people would always talk about, right? Which is, yeah, they definitely can do this, but then they grow out of control and can become tumors. You're saying that the ones now that are genetically altered or modified, don't do that. Zero risk of that with that.

And plus with mizenga most stem cells or stromo cells, which is the more appropriate term, but everyone calls them stem cells. But MSCs, that's the ones that's derived from like imblocal cortiscus or fat or bone marrow. You can get them from a lot of different sources, but imblocal cortiscus has the best cytokine profile. So like the most growth factors

and most anti-inflammatory signaling molecules. So that's the one that we typically use. But like we were saying, the problem is that they're not, because they are still allergenic, meaning they're not from your own body, they still do have a little bit of immune response and so they're not gonna stick around forever. So even when you do intravenous stem cells,

we do them for anti-aging, for like auto-immunity, for lots of different conditions. They only stay in your system for maybe four weeks. So how do they work so well? It's because of the signaling and immunomodulatory benefits. So that's what they're doing. So a lot of people are like, oh, I'm doing STEM,

and a lot of doctors will say that to them, they'll be like, they promise you the world, right? And that's where, that's why this field is full of the blasts, Nikol salesman. And there's a lot of them around the world because of the STEM cell, there's so much medical tourism going on. But I was lucky because I worked in Dubai

for like four months where this winter, and then basically over there, they've been doing stem cells like expanded and culture stem cells for over nine years. They were approved, they're legal, but in the US culture expanded stem cells are still legal. So when you see stem cell clinics in the US, it's basically where they're harvesting

your bone marrow, your fat, and those are stem cells. Those are actually called committed progenitor cells, which are basically just cells that help with reducing inflammation. They don't actually have that stemness to them. Why do they still leak, why do they leak? Yeah, I was gonna say, is that the only legal way to harvest? FTA, 70% of their funding comes from pharmaceutical companies.

Like they don't want this stuff to necessarily take off, right? I think it's lobbyist that push against the stuff, unfortunately. And so there are lobbyists who don't want this stuff to become mainstream, and that's why this stuff, the podcast and getting this information out there is so important because it can help a lot of people, and it does help a lot of people, and it can change a lot of lives.

And like even when I worked in Japan, this here too, and in Japan, same thing, they have a regulatory framework for regenerative medicine, and they've been doing this for since 2014, like culture expanded stem cells. They're legal, you can do IV stem cells, like no issues for anti-aging, for longevity, and all this other stuff. And're legal, you can do IV stem cells, like no issues for anti-aging, for longevity and all this other stuff.

And like over here, you do IV stem cells, the FDA will shut you down right away. You know who loves regulations? Big business, that's already in business. Cause it keeps the competitors out of the market. A lot of people don't understand that. You talk about the hydrogels that protect these cells from your immune system.

Yeah. Okay, explain that. So are they, they're encased in this hydrogel? Exactly, the stem cells are embedded into them. So they're not able to send your your body's not able to identify them as a potential for exactly exactly. Protect them from the immune system. So this is being done already. We we've just licensed out some tech from a European a Portugal Portuguese company that already has this technology for injectable hydrogels that the stem cells are embedded into. And then we're also working with a company called tissue labs in Switzerland.

And we're making our own embedded stem cells scaffolds for regenerating cartilage. So we have an orthopedic surgeon that we're working with. Oh, we apply it. And we, well, yes, exactly. So you have like two ports. It's a proprietary 3D bio printer, and one port has prints the stem cells,

and one port prints the scaffolding, and they come in together into this 3D bio printer. You lay it on the joint or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And then you put it arthroscopically and it resurfaces it. It can resurface the entire. The hydrogell, is that a lipid base? What is that? It's basically like hyaluronic acid, which is like college.

Sure. Yeah, but there's different types of hydrogells. And so the best and the safest seems to be just an hyaluronic acid derivative. Is that a total compatible? Exactly. Is there any applications for this science to help like with autoimmune issues reversing that? Yeah, and that's and that's the thing right like you can put like it's out there like you can put people into remission Like I would rheumatoid arthritis inflammatory bowel disease like it's crazy and I've put patients into remission with this stuff

We have a protocol we use peptides we use intravenous stem cells And then we actually are manufacturing our own poop pills we use intravenous stem cells, and then we actually are manufacturing our own poop pills, fecal microbial transplant, FMT, because FMT can repopulate your gut, and that's a huge part of your immune system. So that's our kind of autoimmune protocol that we do for patients to keep them in remission.

Yeah, and are you able to practice that in the States? Or do you have to keep it all off, sure. Wow. So if I wanted to get treatment from you, Los Cabos, Mexico. It's nice. Oh, Mexico. Well, not bad place.

Okay, so you brought some up tourism. I got to ask you about this, because you brought, and I had to stop talking, so I was asking too many questions, I was too excited. We were talking about peptides, you said there's a new technology, you said it was okay, I could bring it up, because now this blows me away. So the, I don't know, the challenge with peptides, I would say,

from the average consumer is, I got to inject this every day, very short half-life, right? So you inject yourself with, you know, it's a small, you know, subcue needle, no big deal, but a lot of people still won't like it. I got to inject my motsie in the morning or I got to inject my, you know, my CJC or whatever. And you have to do that repeatedly daily because it's got such a short half life.

You guys have a technology where you inject it once and then it tells your body to produce this, okay, so explain this to me. Yeah, what this is and how it's- So it's the world's first reversible plasma gene therapy. So let me explain the context and the history about gene therapy so everyone can understand a little bit. But basically gene therapy has been around since the 90s,

but it was always viral vectors. And the problem is viral vectors, they're expensive to manufacture, and they're also been risked with them and actually some deaths with them too There was a death in like late 90s that happened where like it was for like a rare genetic condition They use a viral vector and unfortunately it caused an infection and then he went to like septic shock and he died But so that's that the field back of gene therapy research like 10 years because obviously everyone gets scared, right? And so it picked up again in the late 2000s and there's a lot of like what's called adenossociative virus, AAV vector.

And that's kind of been the mainstay of viral, of how to transfect and how to do gene therapy. But again, it's very expensive to manufacture those and you can't really scale it. So there is one company that's doing them in offshore too with AAV vectors, but there's risk with them. And they're in it costs over $100,000 for these anti-aging gene therapies. So our plasma gene therapy, essentially it's a bacterial origin,

but there's no live bacteria in there. It's just a circular strand of DNA, hence the name of our company mini-circle, because it's literally just a mini-circle. And that mini-circle, we can transfect any peptide or protein in the body to tell your body to make more of that. So we can do that one injection subcutaneously, takes two minutes, and it lasts for one half to two years. And so then, because essentially it's giving, you know, this is a bacterial transport.

Plasma, it's not active, right? And it tells your cells, hey, keep making this whatever we put in there. So if you want this peptide to keep, even instead of taking it every day, that's instead of taking my BPC every single day, it tells my body to make the BPC every single day. And you say this last for like a year or two. Yeah. One after two years,

and now how do you make it? What's reverse? How do you reverse that? Yes, because of E. coli origin, you can just take a tetracycline antibiotic. It's a perfect kill switch. It. And it's a perfect kill switch. It's a perfect kill switch. We're publishing it in Nature Biotech because it's, I mean, I think the scientists who invented it, I'm not the inventor,

I work with them, I'm not that smart. I'm just a guy promoting it, but I work with them obviously closely. The scientists who invented it, I think he'll get the Nobel Prize because this is a breakthrough technology and it's gonna change the world. So if I did switch, if I did do this and I had to take antibiotics for something else,

then it may stop it and I'd have to try it again. Yeah, yeah, for sure. If you had to take tetracycline for whatever reason, then you would probably have to get a readminister. Now, people listening, we just came off the heels of the pandemic right away when you're talking about gene therapy. I'm thinking, mRNA, and I'm thinking of these vaccines and all the skin fear around. This is different, it's not MRNA. No, it's just plasma. Plasma is just a digesting exchange information and this is just one way to exchange information. They're super safe.

There's been no documented adverse effects in the five years has been studied and obviously in our phase one trial, that was for safety. There was no adverse effects at all. I've done it on myself. I've done it for my parents, I've done it for many patients and high level pro athletes. High level pro athletes is a really interesting area because it can increase neurological drive and it can increase strength and it can increase recovery.

It reduces your intrinsic biological age, which is really interesting because intrinsic biological age is usually not modified by lifestyle. And so typically intrinsic biological age is something everyone's kind of like the holy grail of how do we modify this. And so typically intrinsic biological age is something everyone's kind of like the holy grail of how do we modify this. And so because it actually looks at a cellular level,

how your body's aging. And one injection, if you're over 60, can reduce your intrinsic biological age by average 11 years. But if you're in your 50s, like six, seven years, so it's pretty significant. But we've had some people who are super responders, like one of the girls who did it, she's 28, her intrinsic biological age, and then her age went down to 12. Oh wow. Wow.

We went into a child. Would it make me contagious? Let's say I do this and then I go and, you know, make out my wife or something like that. No, the plasma, the plasma is literally, so we, say we inject it in your fat. That's almost kind of stuff you guys are doing. Yeah, yeah. So the transmitting of the e-sac. Yeah, exactly. It literally just stays in that area and just tends that signal to produce a peptide. Okay, so it wouldn't be contagious.

No, okay, no. Okay, no. Wow, this is, so potentially, could this technology be used to teach myself to make anything? Like, what if I wanted more opiates? What if I wanted more? Yeah, no, there's so many targets, right? And so we have a whole pipeline of products and You know, the sky's the limit really because we can do any protein or peptide and the cool thing about this unlike

CRISPR Cas9 CRISPR is like the gene editing technology that a lot of people know about that can have off-site targets This has no off-site targets is specifically a hundred percent accurate Wow, okay, wow and you'd mention you had mentioned also that you could even do this with hormone replacement. So if my testosterone is low, rather than doing my weekly testosterone injection, you could do this and it will tell my body to produce more testosterone. Yeah. So that's probably our fourth product. So our second product will be something called Clotho, which is a peptide that can increase intelligence, prevent neurodegeneration,

protects your kidneys, and then the next one after that is going to be copper peptide, because copper is your level's decreased as you get older. It's really good for skin health and anti-aging cosmetics. And then testosterone is the one after that. And testosterone, essentially, everyone knows, is the problem, as like you said. You have to inject yourself once or twice a week. A lot of people find it a hassle. This way, you just do one injection and it will maintain your levels for one and a half to two years. A lot of people find it a hassle. This way you just do one injection

and it'll maintain your levels for one and a half to two years and we can titrate the dosing. I was just gonna say, like how do you control whether or not I'm making too much? Or do you do something like that? I'm making 5,000 milligrams of that. No, we can titrate it. And that's the beauty of it.

Yeah, we would always see do a blood test after like a month of it and then you can titrate it. And you can reduce it or anything. Why those four in that order? We, market. market, exactly. Yeah. And then we don't, we want to go after like rare genetic conditions too, like, you know,

cystic fibrosis because that's a missing peptide or protein, right? Uh, and that causes a build up of the secretions. But that, obviously we want to make revenue first and then we can reinvest that into the rare diseases. But the biggest market is anti-aging, longevity, cosmetic, low, low, hanging fruit. Are you able to do any of this in the States? No, unfortunately Montana, we could do that Montana because Montana's governor recently

approved phase one drugs. So that's the only state we could do it in. So we're probably going to open up clinic there. But I heard Florida's governor, I mean, just, you know, he's de-Santis. He's pretty, he doesn't care about the FDA either. So I think he's going to also follow suit soon. So Florida and Montana are probably gonna be good to pause so we can hopefully do.

Nevermind. I'm here in California. No. Yeah, this will be a last one. This will probably be a last one. That's crazy. So you had some big investors in Skirch. Can you name any or can you talk about any of them?

Yeah, I mean deal capital, Pierre Thiel, the PayPal guy, he's our main. Just to add some authenticity to this. For sure, yeah. No, like I think having someone like that to, the money's important, but be protection in a lot of ways too, because you are disrupting an entire industry, and anytime you're disrupting an industry,

people are gonna come after you. There's already negative press about our stuff. And it's not just any industry either. I mean, there's gotta be, are you little nervous, a little scared at all? I've been told I should get a bodyguard, but, I don't know. Yeah, that's why I'm trying. I can take this guy who's scared of a cockroach.

You're the two. You're the one who's scared of a cockroach. You got the log. You just need to get shaved very hard. He's going like that, too. Jordan, are you able to talk? Have you tried any of this? Are you able to talk about it?

I was supposed to get it for you. We got to do it for you. You know, we're ships passing in the night. And whenever we see each other, there's always an athlete in between us. So now that I move back to Toronto, I have a different area. I have a different issues.

So I've been just having been proof of concept of my own principles of like out functioning the day, like I don't have an ACL on my left knee. I tore my right pec. I've separated both AC joints, dislocated both shoulders, torn laborings in both shoulders. So, but yeah, I'll be the $6 million man now on the table. One, now that we're

back in the same in the same town. Wow. Wow. Is it expensive? It's $25,000 for one shot, but if you think about it, it's almost lasted two years, and for people who are into this stuff, like they don't mind paying, I think, for the most part. And my thing too, with this stuff, it is a new technology, right? So think about Plasma TVs in like 2003 or whatever.

They used to be like, to some of them were like $100,000. Sure. And but they came down precipitously. And same thing with like my kind of like way to equate it is with like electric vehicle batteries. Like EV battery manufacturing was really expensive and really difficult in 2010.

The Tesla's were very good back then. They didn't go very far. The batteries were pretty crappy. But people still bought them because in the hopes that this is going to lead to a brighter future for society. And that's my same principle with cell and gene therapy. Cell and gene therapy manufacturing, the process is improving because there's bioreactors,

there's different ways that we can bring down the cost curves. So instead of costing like, even 10 years ago, like or even five years ago, STEM cells like IV STEM cells were like 50,000 and now they're like 25,000. And like in another five years, they'll be like 10,000 and it's seen thing with the gene therapy. The manufacturing process will keep improving

and as the demand goes up, we can bring down the cost. Okay, so evil scientists in me is like, if this technology's out, I think high level extreme cosmonaut athletes, bodybuilders, whatever, we're gonna get their hands on this and go crazy. I mean, what do you think, Jordan? Yeah, regulations always tough, right?

The wine is to cheat is always going to be higher than the wine is to catch. How do you test somebody's body that's naturally making... I think the one thing you have to be comfortable with is at the highest level that people aren't getting tested. Right. And at a certain point, there is a maximum amount of recovery that's useful before the actual skill of the athlete shines through. So I think the sports are as fair now as they're ever

gonna be on that front. Because more testosterone doesn't equal more. And you know, in the sports that we love to watch, they really, and I think sports in general have gone down this trajectory of being more skill based, right? And changing the rules fundamentally so that the skill can be expressed because that's what we like. Right? The TSN top 10 is always going to be some high velocity transverse plane movement, right?

Like a spin or a catch or whatever. Sure. Right. So, you know what? I think there's a lot to talk about professional sports as they intersect with medicine. Like we talked earlier about, you know, the best team surgeons are going to be often seen as the best surgeon.

So my kid goes to see the Miami Dolphins seem surgeon. It's like, when you start to understand a little bit about every professional sports organization right now to my knowledge is actually operating a legally under federal, med, legal operation law. So like you think of all the incentives for medicine in the Bay Area at a corporate level, right? Apple, Google, Facebook, Pinterest, they all have medical care and I was a chiropractor at Apple. But my badge, you know, I had an Apple badge to get into the building, but my employer wasn an apple. My employer was crossover health because it's illegal to protect them. Yes,

you have to do that. But every single pro sports team is in violation. There's actually a study done at Harvard called the Harvard football study. And it talks a little bit about this. And but I think it's really going to start to make waves in the next couple of years. By my estimation, every pro sports league in the United States, at the very least right now, is an incredible amount of, is in an incredibly vulnerable position in the way they've structured their medical teams at the sports organization, because none of them are protected. I go and hire someone. Well, that's illegal under the law that it says it's not legal to incentivize medical care.

You're financially incentivizing medical care. Every team is liable right now. There's a huge opportunity to restructure at the pro sports level. It's intersection with medicine and I think what a deal is doing is going to be a massive part of that conversation because you're going to need to have a governing body that's not owned by the leagues Sure, the baseball NBA and a cell NHL you have to yeah, right? Apple follows suit and understands the med legal. That's what you have like crossover health or one or whatever runs Google But pro sports teams don't mm-hmm. It's like look at musculoskeletal injuries at Apple trust me. I work there Right, it's not as a that. Right? It's not.

It's my wrist hurts. It's like because you've been coding for like 30 years, right? But, you know, I think part of that conversation will be because ultimately it's going to be good business, right? Like, I think you're starting to see, you know, the athletes, like, you know, kind of in the tennis world, like no back joke of it, for example, right? No back joke of it, which is on top of his game for 20 years. The guy wins 92% of matches that he plays.

That's insane, right? And but you know a guy like Novak's, he has to go out and build his team, right? Where if you're a pro athlete coming up in North America and you're playing one of like the big four sports hockey baseball basketball or football, you're under the assumption that the team has your best interest at heart. They don't, right? Because it's about the bottom line, but I think there's a potential for alignment, right? And that alignment is going to be aligning the best interest as a financial outcome to the institutions, with the best interest of the health outcomes of the athletes.

Right. And I think this is going to be a big part of it. No, 100% makes sense. You know, you mentioned something interesting to me. So the evolution of sports and how they've used cutting edge technology kind of looks like this. It was like, what can we use to make a stronger, bigger, faster than it was like, what can we use to recover faster, heal faster? Seems like we're kind of there right now. You mentioned skill acquisition. That's the brain.

Do you see the future of this kind of stuff or this kind of medicine or let's say advanced applications being more about like how can we get your brain to learn technique and skill faster? How can we improve your perceptive ability? How can we improve your ability to? That's already helping with sports teams. I mean, where are they doing that? Where are they doing that?

They were the first to adopt the, what was the, is it Halo? That was the headgear that there was, they would practice together so they could measure like they're all there, they're, what was going on there's brain where they were playing. So cognitive performance enhancers being like, Oh, top silicon valley, so and so uses whatever to think, you know, but athletes, right? Is that, is that a big space for athletes as well? Oh, okay, I'm gonna try and say it's diplomatic because it deals here.

Yes, but it's not in the way that people think, right? Brain training and watching pro athletes fucking tap little blue lights on the wall. Sorry, that's not how it works. Sure. You know, understanding the intersection of cellular physiology and neuroscience is where these conversations need to be had. And when we start to look at common brain training drills that are like, I'm gonna throw like one of those

tripod sticks at you and you need to catch the red arc. It's like dog. It's so far from what you're doing in your sport. Well, it's not even that. Like novelty in exercise, novelty in exercise for athletes is I think a good thing, right? Or variability in exercise, right? Like, you know, I always talk about this principle, the uncanny valley when it comes to sports

and strength and conditioning. So like, the uncanny valley is like a term born out of robotics. And I think it has like a really good carryover to sports, so kind of like just indulge me for a second. The uncanny valley explains human likeness to things that look like humans, right? So it plots it on a graph. So on the x-axis, it's like, you know, how much something looks like a human, if you're gonna imagine that, like something that doesn't look like a human at all.

Yeah, a human being itself, right? Also being the holy grail of what we're after. And then the y-axis would be, well, how much does it look like us, right? So you see this trend and a lot of us kind of know this inherently if you ever watch a creepy post-apocalyptic sci-fi zombie movie or something, or X-Mac and I think that's usually a sick movie. So let's plot like Wally, the little microwave on Mars

a Disney thing. It has some anthropomorphized features to it, but it's still a microwave on space, right? Whatever it is. It doesn't have Mars. It's not mistaken for me, human. Right. So that's like plots pretty low.

We're whatever about it, but it doesn't look like us. So that's like kind of in the corner of the Y and the X-axis. But as we start to plot up and think about like minions, holy fuck do people love minions. Like full grown adults lose their mind with these little yellow things wearing overall But then they're slightly more anthropomorphized right like anthropore hundred like humans and then you go up to like Simpsons or family guy we're like oh, it's like or the real world But Marge has like three feet tall blue hair sure But then you get into like this weird valley of like looking a lot like human

So we've we've trended up right from Wally to Euminians to Peter Griffin. And then there's like this fucking, just tanks. And it tanks when things look too close to us, but aren't us. They look on candy or scary. I see on candy that, right. And then you peak up when you actually see people, you like like how many of us after COVID,

when we left our house, they go, oh my God, like other human beings, amazing. It's like looking at those scary dolls made in the early 1900s, where they may try to make them look like people, but you're's amazing. It's like looking at those scary dolls made in the early 1900s, where they may try to make them look like people, but you're like that. It's scary, yeah. Freaky, right?

Exercise is a lot like that. Right, okay. So it's good, good, good, good, not that. And it looks too much like the thing we do on the field. Got it, right? So the idea that I'm going to attach my cable, my title list to a carabiner, and I'm going to start working on my three wood.

I mean, the gym, it's like, no, no, no, hold on, there's general properties of strength, agility. Is this because it doesn't translate enough to counter the fact that it's messing you up with the technique and skill of something that's too close to it? Yeah, there's things that athleticism that can be trained in the gym,

and there's things that can't. Right, athleticism has, honestly, athleticism honestly has more to do with rhythm and timing than it does endurance, intensity and velocity. Of course, but endurance, intensity and velocity are attributes or physical properties that we can train in the gym. But we don't want to mess up the rhythm and timing

and the sensory input component right of what we were doing So there's a strength of a deadlift, but there's a technique and skill of a deadlift So you can improve your technique and skill and lift more weight and I necessarily be have muscles that contract harder Right. Yeah exactly So you're saying that makes me think that the the type of peptide or whatever we would come up with for cognitive function would be something that you would use with your training Well, yeah, that actually like speeds up your ability to get into flow state Something like that. Yeah, I be is that would would be the good guess on what the direction you would want to go versus trying to Yeah, I mean right now the big doping issue in sports is the illegal or the band substances around like this

You know the advanced new tropics. Like if anyone's ever taken an Adderall or a Medaphinell, like the pro sports, like pro baseball at the very least, there's said to be the three A's of the MLB, alcohol and being an Adderall, right? That's like that's the truth of it, right? So people are looking at like, and balancing mushrooms, I've heard that.

What's that? Micrograms, microdust, mushroom. Oh sure, yeah. And there's neuroprotective benefits of things like that as well. And the shrooms are, I'm probably not the best qualify to've heard that. What's up? Microtransmucer, oh sure, yeah. And there's neuroprotective benefits of things like that as well. And the shrooms are, I'm probably not the best qualified to talk about that. But if you look at, you know, where people are really honing in their attention, it's like anabolic,

anabolic, anabolic. Yeah. Anabolic, angiogenic steroids. Right. It's not really it. The games aren't built for that anymore. The cognitive stuff is where we start to see a lot of the cheating in the short.

That's what I was asking. Yeah, because with antibiotics, I think we've hit the peak. We figured it out and we figured out which ones make you bigger, which ones give you more neural drive, which one give you whatever. And now they figured out the combination of the perfect amount for the size, speed, neural drive, feel good, whatever. But now there are lots of pet, I use them. So I use certain peptides for cognitive performance. And I notice significant improvements in my recall and my fluency and just how sharp I am on the podcast. Internasal insulin.

I say what? Internasal insulin. No, I've seen that way, but not as well. Yeah, I know it's better than that. So intranasal insulin has been used for dementia and malacognitive impairment. But is that because because a lot of people say it's like dementia better than that. So intranasal insulin has been used for dementia and mild cognitive impairment. Is that because a lot of people say it's like dementia and mild cognitive impairment is

type 3 diabetes because you get insulin resistance and neuro inflammation in the brain. So intranasal insulin, you can be used for optimization for a cognitive enhancement. So you try it out. It's pretty good. And is that because it increases the glucose uptake and you see the brain? Exactly. And the beauty part is it's not going to affect your blood sugar because it just goes down your digestive system if you put X or N or whatever. What? It's just going up your nose, right?

Wow. Super safe. Wow. Super safe. Okay. Super safe. Again, because it's not patented, it's not your body. It's actually an effective treatment for dementia.

And like, it's crazy. When I found out about that, I was like, and if you look on PubMed and like all the research around it, it's just crazy because like when you go to your average doctor, there's just like, there's nothing you can do for dementia. There's these crappy drugs that barely work, you know? And there's something simple like intranasal insulin can actually make a big difference. And obviously we can combine that, like we do with stem cell injections too into the brain. Like I have an interventional radiologist and Dubai who does that with me. So it's well, Whoa, whoa, whoa, you injected into the brain? Yeah, yeah, he goes in directly.

There's actually a good trial that just came out recently for Parkinson's disease using those IPSC cells I was talking about. And it's actually, it's a phase one safety trial, but it essentially so these cells can actually generate new neurons and generate new dopamine producing neurons. So the people in the treatment groups actually have sustained benefits

and to treat their Parkinson's disease. Do you get dopamine side effects from something like that? Because I can get really sensitive to dopamine where I start to feel a little crazy and very impulsive. Well, these are patients who basically aren't make, because they're, they have Parkinson's. So they're not making, you're not giving the normal people.

No, no, no, this is for Parkinson's specifically. Make my brain make a lateral face. Exactly. giving this normal people. No, no, no, this is for Parkinson's specifically make my brain make out of all Exactly. Yeah, yeah Well, so you're you mentioned to buy a few times some of the most some of your biggest or customers got to be out there because they're on the cutting edge and they got money Yeah, no, I got called to the the richest family in the world There were 3.2 trillion their palace and they're you know when treat those type of people, you get access and you get also, it kind of gives you a different perspective too, because it's like,

it doesn't matter how much money you have, everyone has health issues. And so if you could help them, and the other thing for me was like, because sometimes I'm like, I question myself, I'm like, am I in the wrong here? Because why am I going against the narrative? You know what I mean?

Why am I going against the mainstream? So I'm wondering if am I wrong? But then I'm like, look at the people I'm working with. So obviously it just helps to reinforce that maybe I am on the right track because I feel like they wouldn't seek me out if I was crazy. Well, at least I don't think I would.

So I feel like I already know your answer, but I like to ask anyway. You mentioned was it Montana with the allow phase one trials? Okay, so I have personal experience with this. I had a family member who had terminal cancer years ago, and I remember there were trials of drugs that could potentially help, but we had to try to apply and maybe get it.

And I remember being so frustrated, she's gonna die anyway. You gave her four months. She should be able to ask for heroin. I mentioned you wise, yeah. She should be able to ask for molly cocaine. What are the fuck she wants? She's gonna die anyway,

and yet she can't because of these strange regulations. Don't you think a process like, here's a coding system or a color system? Here are drugs that have been tested on animals. Use it your own risk. Here's drugs that have been tested, you know, phase one, phase two, phase three, these are the approved ones. Use it your own risk, it's up to you.

Don't you feel like that would be a much, but because right now costs what, a billion dollars to take a drug from conception to market, which basically means if you can't patent it, or you don't already have a prequel to it, in other words, another opiate or whatever, like why would I even innovate? Why would it spend a billion dollars

to try to invent something? No, this system here is designed to feed itself and that's why we have to go into these other jurisdictions where the regulation isn't like this and it allows us to bring real world evidence. Does this shit work or not? That's basically what it comes down to. And then now, I always use, is like, would you do a randomized control trial to see if

parachutes work? Do you want to be in the placebo group for that? Here's the control group to post in the old one. Like cross fingers. So it's just like, sometimes you have to look at practicality and peptides are a perfect group, people who live in real life. Like cross fingers. Wow. It's just like, sometimes you have to look at practicality. And like peptides are a perfect example of that. Like there's not a single human RCT on peptides,

yet you guys know firsthand how many people are using them. Like, come on. I'll tell you, they're remarkable. And so, but if you go to your doc, if you go to a doctor's stale, they'll be like, oh, there's no RCTs. It's like, bro, like you have to look at real world evidence.

So I'll give you a great example of this. So the US government recognized that more troops were committing suicide than we're dying on the battlefield a while ago. And so they funded, they funded research into MDMA, ketamine, suicide, all of which, like suicide,, for example, can't really patent it, ketamine, it's already been legal forever, but they funded it because they're

like, we got to figure this out. Now the research is coming out, right? I'm doing ketamine therapy right now, and it is remarkable at how effective it is. It's absolutely remarkable. If you look at the research, it could, I mean, it's, it could treat treatment resistant depressions and really bad PTSD, which has no efficacious treatment right now on the market. Well, you don't make any money with the ketamine's cheap,

compound pharmacy makes it. The money I spend is with the therapist. Yeah. The ketamine's cheap as fuck. So I'm seeing this firsthand. Well, that's why I had a patient in Canada that recently approved medically assisted dying. I had this guy, he's a special forces operative

and he got medically discharged because he had really bad PTSD. And so they basically said, he has like four kids, he failed the traditional PTSD treatment. So they're just like, well, I guess you can kill yourself. Like I was just like, that's like, rest messed up. Yeah, exactly. And so I was like, what can I do?

So I started digging into it a little bit from an interventional mental health perspective. And so I was like, what can I do? So I started digging into it a little bit from an interventional mental health perspective. And so there's actually something called a stale gangly on injection, where you actually inject into the stale gangly on which is around here and the vagus nerve. And so the vagus nerve and stale gangly have both feet into your parasympathetic nervous system.

And so we actually can inject peptides and anesthetic into here, and they actually recess your nervous system. We call it the V-shot. And I'm working with the Canadian military to get it covered for the veterans and I've done it for many people and it's changed. It takes me five minutes and it changes their life and we combine it. We can combine it.

We like psilocybin assisted there. I was just going to say then they do that. We combine it. Exactly. We combine it. That's the best. It's just a lot. What does it do?

Just improve neuroplasticity or allow? Exactly. It's a little rewiring of what's happening. Exactly. Yeah. And the new modulation of the nervous system because then they don't have the same response and triggers to every every little thing Wow, I've even treated young girls and got them off like you know anxiety meds panic attacks like it's been crazy

And it's just it's such a simple thing and it's just using literally one injection like peptides Some anesthetic and just in the Vegas nerve and we do it on both sides I don't know if I feel more excitement or anger exactly. That's how I felt. It's exciting. The same time it's like so, it makes me so angry to know that you've got all these things that just could literally change the game. Listen, it's not everybody isn't talking about. It's an unfortunate side effect of the system that we have, right? We want really crazy regulations, but because of the cost, you have to recoup your investment if you can't patent it, why the hell would I invest it? So it's just part of the system.

So I don't blame it, but I do think it could be revamped and changed, and it is angry. I almost feel like I'm talking to the guy who said, hey, look, I created an engine that runs off of water and then he disappears in there. And it feels like I'm in there. Before you're saying is true, are you worried? I was like, I'm going to get you some hot gurgers.

So how do you guys work together? Why do you guys travel together? What's the deal? Yeah, I mean, we're, like I said, we're passing gonna get you some hot girls. So, how do you guys work together? Why do you guys travel together? What's the deal with? Yeah, I mean, we're, like I said, we're passing ships in the night. Okay. Right. So, and the one thing I like even in,

you know, as you was kind of going over the, like the V shot and talking about the applications of some of these drugs with, you know, PTSD and depression, like, you notice you always mention, like the intervention after. Yes. Right. That we're following up with.

Of course. Right. And that's how we kind of, that's why I've been drawn to him over the years is and him to me is, you know, these things are going to open up a window to allow you to change a habit or a lifestyle or motor pattern or something. So there's it's a it's a it's a good like it's a good synergy in the way we practice. Because you know, he'll give me an opportunity a window to change the mechanics of the way someone is moving or playing their sport so that we can you know begin to under load chronically loaded tissues at tour and begin to you know disperse load across different tissues in a way that's going to be regenerated over time where long-term

it was or short or sorry in the past it was just always going to be quarters on quarters on quarters on right which had the catabolic effect so you know we we in the past, it was just always going to be cortisol, cortisol, cortisol, right, which had the catabolic effect. So, you know, we understand the limits of our scope. So if I have something complex where, you know, I can arrive to a conclusion pretty quickly now and just been doing this for a while of like, hey, I know the injury, I know the sport,

I know the intensity, I know the endurance, I know the velocity, I know the demands that you're gonna need in this tissue won't hold up to it. So you need to go fix the tissue. And then we come back, then we actually, you know, then we can start targeting. For people listening, is this a fair analogy, right? Because I used to work with massage therapists, and massage gives you, and oftentimes, immediate,

but temporary relief. Oh, we tighten up, we loosen up the tight muscles you're seeing as it's telling you to stay tight, they're loose, but if you don't train and retrain movement patterns or correctional exercise, you'll just go back to the massage therapist next week. So he's kind of doing that, then you're going in and then you're training them or moving them in ways that then solve the problem. Yeah, yeah. If you zoom out enough, that's kind of the relationship for sure. But that's essentially, and vice versa, right? You know, there's, there's some things and I'm very mindful of this, like, on the stuff

that we teach, like, you know, a, I think one of the biggest things that I think is we're talking about is you can't out-corrective exercise, bad exercise. Right. Athletes move terribly in the gym. They, they are the shape and function of their sport because they do it the most. That's right. Right. So bridging the gap between corrective exercise and exercise and correctly is like a big part of what we do. But also like on the flip side

with him, it's a matter of like, I know that this tissue will be chronically loaded. I need to get him to repair that tissue so I can go back and start getting them to use other tissues. Right. So that's sort of the give and take is, you know, he knows the limitations of his and I know the limitations of mine. I focus more on a constraint based model that focuses more on my limitations and the benefits because that's where I can capture. Like, that's where I can kind of know where I do where you are. I mean, Miami next week, okay, I'll fly in with my guy and can you job, okay, but I got to leave the next day because I got to in Mexico. It's like, okay, we got to leave the next day because we got to go

to the Bahamas. Okay, so this day, all right, we'll meet here. Okay, but I got to leave the next day because I got to go to Mexico. It's like, okay, we got to leave the next day because we got to go to the Bahamas. Okay, so this day, all right, we'll meet here. Okay, bring your radiologists. And then we're, we're, we're, we're just passing ships in the night because it's, we both understand the limitations of what we do. Which is, you guys can work together.

Yeah, and that's, and I think a lot of people, you know, you get lost when you focus on the benefits because like you pump yourself up and you get these great results. But if you know where your limitations are, then you'll make better decisions. Well, yeah, if you're a hammer, everything's a nail. But if you realize you only can work with nails, then that's where you're going to. So I want to ask you something.

How do you know working with high-level athletes, Jordan? How do you know when to correct a movement pattern issue or this is beneficial for their sport? I'm not going to fuck with this because if I do it's gonna mess up their technique or whatever Yeah, I mean, there's like a simple framework to follow we talked earlier about like the stimuli of endurance intensity and velocity and then into like rhythm and timing and worth athletic endeavor So seeing how it's issued to all the rates of those like hey, can you do hold this for position for a long enough period of time? No, okay, that's gonna be a big problem, right?

You you know you play 162 games in the major leagues, or you play a 17-week schedule, or you're a fucking tennis player, and you play for five hours in a grand slam, and you're best of five sets, like understanding the progression of stimuli from endurance, intensity, velocity, rhythm, and timing, and then being like, can the tissue tolerate that? So titrating down to like each individual stimulus at that level of tissue and being like, Hey, yeah, you can tolerate this. Is it is it load intensive? Or is it is it load dependent? Right. Is the issue load dependent? No. Okay, let's drive a lot. Okay, it hurts when you're out of velocity. What velocity can we come down and start to work at sub maximal velocities of a stimulus and start to build this threshold there?

Right. So that's like one one offshoot of progression that we look at. The second is planes of motion. So frontal or sagittal frontal and transverse in that order. Our body gets more complex as we organize movements through each of those planes in order. So sagittal is very basic. Front and back flexion extension. That's our default. That's our safe motor.

That's our default. That's our safe motor. Most people will default back to that. We talked about TSN's sports top 10 list. You'll never see high endurance sagittal plane as a top 10. It's boring. That's why powerlifting is never on the top 10. It's slow and it's sagittal plane. What are the most exciting things? High velocity, well timed, like the duck contest to me. I know you're a ball fan,

but what are we doing here? We're just trying to spin more. That's all it was. It was all the Tony Hawk Pro skater shit. The white dude just jumped up and did a 900 or whatever. And then that was it. Why could this high velocity transfer explain motion? That's interesting.

When you unpack it like that. So it can't naturally drawn to that. Oh yeah, because even if you're not an athlete or even appreciates sports, like maybe someone like Sal, you still subconsciously appreciate that because there's something in there brain that tells us that's super difficult. That's super difficult. Muscles are our second most abundant sensory organ in the body.

And I think we don't appreciate that coming out of the resistance training world because we train them for motor output and not sensory input. Like, we close our eyes right now. What's going to tell us where we are? We have subcutaneous mechanical receptors. There's four major ones, refining endings and mercles, disadmires, corpuscles, and piscini endings. And those manage like vibration and deep pressure

and light touch and skin stretch and all that shit. But the real money when it comes to the way we map our brain internally, and this kind of leads back into the conversation we had about how can you improve the cognitive function of an athlete? It's like the answer is in the muscle, right? The muscles, the conduit into the nervous system, there's 50,000 muscle spindles in the muscles in your body, which makes it the second most abundant sensory organ in our body. The first obviously is our eyes, right? It's like how we map,

how humans map. A dog would map his environment, the whole factory, right? With nose, yeah, smelling. So with us, it's eyes, but the second those go out, it's muscles that are telling us what to do, right? That's why we love the TSN the top 10 the number ones thing is always the no look or the eyes close, right? Like, or he's you know, oh shit. He's pointing it up and he's like looking at you in the eyes when he does it. It's like well, that's a sign of mastery because You know, we can get into like Sarah bullet function Maybe in another time, but when, if we knock out our main system, our second system there to tell us where we are in space,

other than like the motor patterns that we suggested and stuff's probably made that shot 10,000 times in his life, it's the muscles in real time that are telling us like, you can have this internal motion capture system where we are in space, right? So, you know, we talk about sagittal plane being the most basic frontal, slightly more complex and sagittal talk about sagittal plane being the most basic,

frontal, slightly more complex, and sagittal, or sorry, transverse being the most complex. So now we have two progressions. And then we look at movement. When we're dealing with an injury, there's always the ability to move passively, active assisted, active, and active resistant. So we kind of take these three filters

and we kind of kaleidoscope them together and see, given the known biomechanics of the joint or tissue that's injured, where we are, like, where, what's our starting point? Like, it's passive, it's painful and passive, sagittal plane motion. Okay, that's, dude, I'm looking at him right away. I got a guy that I can't lift his leg off the table without him screaming. Right, because you're at the beginning, you're at the first level of both of those. They're colliding like this is where we're way.

Yeah. So there's a lot of will exist in the middle ground and that's where just a gap analysis and experience comes in. Interesting. And then it gets into more finite things of like, you know, what type of what type of athlete is this guy in the sport? Right. Like what type of game does he play?

Right. And this is where you're talking about the limitations. Sure. Oh, I see. Yeah. Using that filter can someone like you like, the other day, I tagged you and like three of our other friends. I think that's by the way. Those are weird to see me on that. I mean, you guys are. You guys are the most brilliant people in the sports performance world, in my opinion, that I've ever seen or spoken to. Can you use that filter and and see, like, let's say some other trainer that's not on that list, post, like, working with an athlete and you automatically can go like, this

fucker doesn't know what he's doing. Is it that? Can you do that? I mean, yeah, but it's tough. Like in the sports world, the longer you do it, the more you realize that optimal is 51 percent, not 100. The house always wins. That's what you're aiming for.

Randomness is great. Novelty is great, but we just need specific novelty. Right, we need specific variability outside of the plane's motion. It looks some people pick it up with their eyes closed. Right, a blind squirrel can find a nut every now and then. Right, and I've been around long enough to know and kind of to a deal's point earlier,

like there's a mutable principles of movement and exercise that are going to be ever present regardless of your dogma or ethos or your education. What you think we know about training. Because right now, and we talked earlier about my friend, he's named Zandio Brian, he's Sydney Crosby's strength coach. Probably one of the most brilliant guys that I know.

And he's like, we maybe know 5% of what there is to know right now. So you do this enough times and it's frustrating from people don't have a system because we're trying to beat randomness and that's not a novel feat. Randomness is a dangerous opponent. And what makes it dangerous is

because you can get results with almost anything. It fools you, it does. Yeah, so for me, I'm aiming for 51%. We talked about Novak Jokovic. I pulled into the tennis world in the last year. Novak Djokovic wins 92% of matches that he plays, which is nuts. Up until this year, he's won the last eight Wimbledons

and he's won, I don't know, 20, 30 plus slams over his 20 year career. But do you know how many points he wins on average? 56%. The best tennis player in the world only wins 56%. So when I watch a code and look, there is a time. I think in system 56, but yeah. The best tennis player in the world only wins 56%. So when I watch a code and look, there is a time. I think in system 56, but yeah.

Yeah, but the house always wins. So my job is to be the house. When I make decisions around whether it's managing or co-managing an athlete or the decision to co-manage an athlete, I'm aiming for a result slightly better than random, which is going to be 50%. You're working with very high performance, high functioning, like, like, 0.1% of the 1% of people when you're talking about that, when you're talking about the average person

comes in like, oh, my back hurts. It's more than 51%. Oh, um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, okay, you got to strengthen your abs or something like that. Right. And that's where people kind of,

because that's what we all start, right? And I think that that's where randomness gets really scary because it gives you a false sense of confidence. Well, yeah, you get somebody just generally stronger and like, oh, this fix their back pain or knee pain. And that's it, like, I mean, I coach that that T-shirt with us, Kyle Baxter, he's kind of like coined this phrase of people being weaker than the forces of gravity acting on them.

And then we can get into a center of mass conversation and what that really means in application of exercise, prescription. But like, I look at like a chess board and a checkers board. It's the same fucking board. There's white squares and there's black squares, but what's different are the pieces. Pieces mean something different depending on what game you're playing. With general population people, you're playing fucking checkers. Just make little jumps.

That's it. Get them stronger. But I'm not like, I don't give a shit. You don't need to reinvent. Yeah, you don't need to reinvent. Yeah, relative strength of body weight ratio, huge. But when you get to the other side of the board and you've done your time and you've cut your teeth on the gym floor, and then maybe a kid you train

was talented and made it to a college level, or maybe you train someone and know someone and you get a shot at an athlete. It's like you got to understand that you're playing a different game, you're on a different board, right? Now you got the horse moves in the L thing. I've got a biomechanics, but I don't actually know what the fuck I'm talking about.

It comes to the chest reference. The horse moves in the L and the thing that looks like a bowling pin goes in the diet. You should be a dieting person. Yeah, sure, whatever. Cleans game, I don't have a TV thing. So that's the main difference, right? And really what that comes down to is load management.

It just comes down to a out is load management, right? It just comes down to a system of load management. That's all it is. If I were to just still it down to what biomechanics is, it's load management. But load management is still a problem, even in an elite level, as we see. And some of the trainers are Muppets

as Jordan likes to call them. Well, I mean, we see the show. I mean, that's what I was seeking for. I wanted him to point out, like, I could see someone doing something, and then there's a red flag. There's gotta be red see someone doing something and then there's like a red flag. There's gotta be red flags. I gotta be sure.

And there's red flags on either side. Like, fuck man, like, there's modalities and I don't wanna get sued, but there's modalities like, you know, transcutaneous neuromuscular electrical stimulation devices are still ramping in the sports world. All you're doing is you're gonna nerf an athlete that needs to be really strong, right?

If I have a fucking, you know, some doped up, the tens unit on my quad, what I don't have is 500 pounds on the bar. And there's gonna be a time where load management requires, because load management is a double-edged sword, right? And we don't realize that, you know, we understand that overshooting load, you know, from a training perspective, like probably around the 15% mark. Like if we came in today, like I'm feeling pretty good,

I found some old Jack 3D in the cupboard, like, time to grip and rip. And you go for a PR that's over 15% of a training stimulus that you're used to in the last like 30 days. And you got hurt. Yeah, no shit. Like you yolo PR it on some one three dime math and you fucked up your back.

Like yeah, shit happens, but the opposite is also true. Underloading under 15% relative stimulus to what you're used to also leads to an increased risk of injury. Right. So the fine line. Exactly. Load management is a fine line. And I think, you know, when we get into the sports world, one of the biggest one of the biggest principles, if we understand that okay biomechanics is load management right and you need to equate in like Corey's done Something remarkable. I don't think many people really appreciate Corey's lessons are you have to say friend of the show He's done something interesting. He's actually just taken a job at Texas. So he's gone from In Corey hopefully not like out in your news here, but he's we went from taking a strength coach role at

The Phoenix sons yep to taking an assistant coach role and performance director. Well, so that's like, that's some innovative shit because now you can actually tolerate where load comes from from both ends, right? Because it's like, as a strength coach, conventionally at the collegiate pro level, you're always playing catch up,

you're always playing the reactive. Like an angry coach puts a garbage can in the middle of the court and runs kids until they puke. It's like fuck. Right. Everyone wants a new managing that. What's up? He was one of the only coaches. Yeah. I remember I talked to a first manager. First introduced us to him and he broke that down. It was one of the things I think we were all blown away by. Like he was the first coach I'd ever heard that would adjust his training based off of what the other coaches

were doing to their athletes. First is like, this is my program. This is what we do all the time, which is what you hear from any other coach, trainer. And it's so load management becomes really difficult. And the more control you have over variables, the better data you have, the more you can do this. Like, you know, we'll monitor guys in season. And, you know, if a guy finds some open field and playing against a weak defense, and he can hit 20 plus miles an hour, that week, I don't need to touch him at high percent. But if he gets shut down and like the offense isn't on the field for much of the game, I can tell, oh, hey, man, you only max, you know, you got a few strides you ran for 10 yards, I need you to run something over 90 percent this week. So, you know, Tuesday, Wednesday, I need to see something above 90%,

which for you is gonna be like 18, 19 miles per hour. So we can stoke that stimulus throughout the season, get them faster over their career. So would you say that's like what makes the art or the beauty of what you do is being able to be right on the closest to that line you can be? Yeah, and the thing is, a lot of it comes down with your tolerance for risk.

You need to be able to accept the consequence. A shit goes wrong. And that's where a lot of trainers will just look at the program and then stick to the program because if you stick to the program, you blame the program. So you have to have a certain ability to tolerate risk and it's tough when athletes are getting

the athletes are worth nine figures. On a consistent basis, athletes you work with, like, you know, they'll make $100 million plus in their career, and you need to be comfortable with your experience and the tools that you have to make the decisions. Like it really comes down to awareness over time is what builds instincts, right?

So if you're aware over time, you can start to recognize patterns. Like, you know, you learn so much subconsciously that gives you the inclination that you need to listen to, but only if you're aware. You need to know what you're looking to looking at in your conscious foreground to allow your subconscious background to start picking up and collecting information. Is there any tech that you like or appreciate? I mean, I look at the big data, man. If you really want to look at athlete longevity, muscle mass and overall body weight to skeletal mass ratio is probably one of the most undervalued metrics that you could track.

Just straight track and body fat percentage. Well, tracking body fat. So a friend of mine, Chris, well, a friend of ours, Chris McClellan and Aaron Wellman have a way, a system of, with a decent amount of accuracy, actually measuring the weight of someone's axial scale, or an appendicular scale. It's in the bones. How much are your bones?

They break it down, which is wild. And I think one of the most honest scientific efforts I've seen, they actually break it down by race, and they've been able to collect a tremendous amount of data across a multiplicity of professional sports. And they can say, look, based off of your race, you should carry this many kilograms per kilogram of bone to muscle, right?

Like that's running lean is going to be, and look, lean doesn't necessarily mean low body fat percent, it means your muscle mass to skeletal mass ratio. Right. So that's like one of the biggest predictive factors. So I think a lot of the, like too much muscle, too little but skeletal mass, higher rate much muscle, too little skeleton mass, higher rate of injury. Higher rate of injury, too much weight to...

Right. And so you can break those things down and also on the flip side, right? Too little muscle. Sure. To bone. So it is about optimizing for some of these like really obvious low-hanging fruit.

And that's probably one of the biggest ones that will track, then performance matter. Performance is a proxy by which we make decisions. And I think a lot of people look, I don't wanna say too heavily at the data, but there's this subjective interpretation that correlates, and that's how you really understand the difference between being tired and being fatigued.

We can all test that our best training days are probably come on the days where we felt the worst, as a powerlifter, and I'll put that on the fringe of the sidelines of conventional sports. When I go in, Mike, Dan Green, my coach, this up the road, I would deadlift after a long day of working and I would feel slow, but objectively, it moved fast. What he would say is like, put more weight on the bar. You need to know how to be data informed, not data driven. There's some hard line metrics that we look at,

but those metrics are just tracking performance, right? And more so on the field of play, because that's the objective measure we're looking to improve. So do you find those, like, the most popular tools out there, like irrelevant, then when you're, like, do you literally strap up any... Well, I think the stuff is important because of longevity field. There's a particular doctor who talks a lot about this stuff, and, uh, mean Jordan, you know, we... Our text threads are hilarious We just lame so many people Oh no, but because we're unique because we have we understand we're both Jim rats too

We've lived and we understand like the longevity aspect of muscle and how to optimize that But there's a lot of people out there who are getting attention who are just talking about really outdated stuff And like I think what he's talking about from the sensory perspective is so important, but also muscle being an organ of longevity is kind of like the concept now, right? I think everyone understands that, but it's like, how do you actually frame it in a way

where you're doing it for longevity? How do you actually structure your training? So I think that's the insight that we have that a lot of people don't. And the guy who are out there talking the loudest aren't necessarily putting out the best information. That's a delicate balance also, right? We talk about that the triangle, right?

If you're moving, you start to move towards too much muscle, you move away from longevity. If you go too far towards the aesthetics, from the average person, from the average person, like so there is that fine dance with that also. Yeah, we can try my pro bodybuilders with being extremely good.

Which also, I think back to the beginning topic about steroids, that's why I just taking more steroids and more muscle isn't necessarily ideal at all for athletes, which is why I think we've reached that kind of. Yeah, I mean, thank, I look baseball, to me, I'm not a baseball guy, but fuck was it ever exciting? When like Roger Clemence had a 20-age neck, right?

He was a part of Congress, like, he's coming up the worst excuses ever. But, you know, it was a side show. It became a side show and it didn't actually help the sport. Now it's like, when you let the skill shine through sports, that's where, and sports that are more skill heavy are really starting to come up. Like, you know, tennis is now the fifth most popular sport

in the world. Look what Messia has done for soccer in the United States, right? You see the skill of this guy, and you're like, well, fuck, no wonder we didn't like soccer compared to European players. We're watching a bunch of plumbers go out and play soccer, right? He's not fair at some point, but the sandwich breaks.

Because if we look at most conventional people who have a ton of muscle mass and we kind of put them through this filter of like, well, do they move well, active, resisted in the transverse plane and high velocities with any sort of rhythm and timing? No. Right? They're frontal plane monsters. I mean, they're sagittal plane monsters. Like you watch a bodybuilder try and run. He waddles. What's waddling? It's it's global AB and ADduction. Yeah. What is that? It's frontal plane movement. Why? Because they don't have any sort of local or global access to the transverse plane. Right. That's not it's funny. It's how the watch like bodybuilder run until he tears a hamstring, but you know,

we we like performance. Why? Because it performances areing and we're just gluttonous for entertainment right so the and I think this is where like the alignment a lot of these topics are gonna come from like you know if things these things have to start at the top the the big screen TV that's at in the corner of the rich kids living room that took up 30% of it that cost $10,000 we needed that rich kids dad to buy that TV so I can hang a plaza on my office wall for 300 bucks. Right, right. And that's kind of where we're at. And I think there is an alignment coming together from all the different interests, right?

I think mainstream medicine is, at the very least, they're catching on to the muscle as a longevity organ. It's finally starting to happen. There were almost no studies 20 years ago on longevity and strength. And now you're starting to see a lot of that. I think that's good. And the best studies out there are grip strength.

That's just because it's a proxy, right? Exactly, it's a proxy. But imagine if you actually measured like force in your lower body extremity because that's where a lot of your muscle, your glute muscles. So there's actually data out there is called myosteatosis, which is how much fatty infiltration

or gets into the glute or into the rec fat. Yeah, Dr. Gabriel Lian was talking about, like they can actually look at muscle and see if it's quality muscle versus like, yeah, you got lean body mass here with this lot of fat. Yeah, exactly. So myosteatosis is actually a predictor of mortality and people in COVID that they looked at it too.

So patients who had more myosteatosis in their glute and the rec fat area they looked at it too. So patients who had more of myostatosis in their glute and direct family area, where had poor outcomes. So it just shows us that having muscle in the right places and not having that fatty infiltration is so important and protective for systemic disease. But then there's the whole aspect of injury prevention, stability and all the other stuff

that is talked about, but not maybe about the right people and all that stuff. That's a well, we have insulin sensitivity, androgen receptor density of the ability store glycogen. Well, yeah, there's something now we know, because it comes back to like, you know, the exosome stuff we were talking about earlier. Now we can measure that from the muscle too,

there's something called exercelular vesicles, which are exerquins and myocines that get released from the muscle. And so these myocines, they're basically cytokines that are proteins that are signals that get sent, and they bypass the blood brain barrier. So they reduce newer inflammation, they help prevent against dementia.

So now we understand at a cellular level, how is muscle actually protecting your body? So you're saying that muscle also is a major part of the immune system? Exactly, because of the myocans and exerquines, which are only released in response to the stimulus of certain exercise. Yeah, you know what's interesting?

I read this study on an extreme form of athlete when it comes to muscle building, pro bodybuilders, not the healthiest. Okay, obviously they do a lot of shit that will kill most people and yet their rate of cancer, their death rate of cancer was lower than the average person. Just to highlight the protective benefits of muscle, it even counter all the shit that they do their bodies that's totally unhealthy. Well, not even unhealthy. And a lot of cases, like if you've got guys that they do their bodies, that's totally unhealthy. Well, not even unhealthy.

And a lot of cases, like if you got guys that are running a drug called the Increlex, you're literally going in with something so the Increlex is like the pharmaceutical name for IGF1, right? So not only is it not healthy, the ability for exercise to put out the fire while the arson is still lighting the fire,

is pretty amazing, right? And I think something that's like a principle that we've seen, or a theme that we've seen, and I think we'll continue to see it as we move forward and we continue to innovate on like the regenerative side or the exercise, is moving towards principle-based interventions. Research is too slow, right?

Like everything that we've used research, the research proves that you can know how to read. That's it, that's all it does. So every single, you know, you scroll through your gram and, you know, I have friends that do it, colleagues that do it, and like I get it, you know, the algorithm, whatever. There's some yellow bullshit text over saw a new study show. Yeah. Yeah. Principles, right? We've, we, there are immutable first principles that we need to get back to. People don't read enough textbooks. They read too much fucking research and they just sway,

and their experience is, is, is, holds value, because there's nothing that they're tested, there's nothing at the core of it, right? There's the trade wins of research, and then look, we can talk about, you know, there's no bad people, there's just bad incentives, and you know, that is true, I think, in the research world, but I think for too long we use research to prove things wrong, rather than looking at principles to figure out why things were right. And I think that's the big shift that we're seeing now in people who are innovating

in the space. Is there, they're taking a look at people who are espousing research, the research that's available to us and, you know, then you have to sift through what of that is of high enough quality to be applicable. And then, you know, those people are being outperformed. And that's why high net worth individuals and athletes are a really nice proving ground. Because the proof is in the scoreboard. And the proof is in the scoreboard. It brings objectivity back in the world.

So they're buying the big screen TVs, but they're the ones showing the results. So I think research is great. But I always think, I came up under the influence of Charles Pollock, like, maybe, the rest of him. And he was doing cluster training 25 years before they proved the efficacy of.

So if you were to wait, he never would have done that. But he understands the principles of muscular physiology. He understands nervous system adaptation. So from a principal's perspective, it could work. And I think principles are the core of what informs better research to be done in the first place. I think we've put research too much up on a pedestal in an evidence-based model, and looking at a clinician's understanding of principles, the client and patient values is another arm

of evidence that I don't think people look at. And we're conflating evidence-based with research-based. A lot of people are like, I'm evidence-based. And it's like, you know, you talk about the parachute thing. Like I've been in conferences where people will push me on this. It's like, are there squirrels in this room right now? No, do squirrels exist?

Yes. But so when you might not see the results in the confined, or confined sanitized space of a study with, you know, like nothing makes me laugh like an eight-week-perch of each stuff. Some assholes, baddies. You know the phrase, like, biggest pet peeve for us, right?

But if you can understand the principles of amino acids, you can understand the mTOR process. You can probably make some really informed decision that over the course of someone's life, we'll guide them. And that's the problem with the whole anti-aging industry and all these, all these kind of geek doctors who aren't actually in the real world doing the

application because they don't understand the fundamental principles so in physics they call it first principles and now in biology we understand the fundamental principles or hallmarks of aging. There's 10 hallmarks. There's like chronic inflammation, myocondros function, luster proteostasis, there's all these lists and then basically but those 10 fundamental principles govern almost every chronic disease. So if you can understand how those fundamental principles happen and how to alter those, and you can treat so many different diseases. At the very least, you have a very, very good direction. And you have a framework to work with.

Right. And that's why these anti-aging, the problem with the community is they're doing the exactly what he said. These are like the guys that go on on TikTok and they're like, don't stimulate M4. Exactly. And that's why it's boomers, yeah, man. that go on tick-tock and they're like, don't stimulate M2R. Exactly, it can't just move. And that's why it's boomers, yeah man. And Frig, I don't wanna, I guess I don't wanna,

sorry, drop names in the front. But even like the Harvard scientists guy, David Stinclair, he talks about, he talks about all that stuff, right? But then he's like, you're talking about M2R, but then it's like, but yes, working out and protein stimulates M2R, but you need protein because anti-cadaabolic and it'll protect you from muscle loss and

sarcopenia. What's more important? What's the principle of aging? The number one principle of aging is muscle and keeping that preserving that muscle. That's why the fallostatin is such a big deal because it inhibits myostatin and it's anti-catabolic, right? But the and so these guys are getting their order mixed up their order of like sequence, right? And then putting other things in front of the most important. I'm gonna back you up. I'm gonna back you up. getting their order mixed up, their order of like sequence, right? And then putting other things in front of the most important. I'm going to back you up. Maybe the bath water. I'm going to back you up.

So we, there was just, there was some studies that Dr. Gabriel Line brought up on testosterone replacement therapy in prostate cancer. Now we thought prostate cancer driven by endrogens cut out testosterone that'll improve survivability. Now the data showing no actually better outcomes by maintaining normal testosterone levels. That would be a principle. Low testosterone unhealthy. Exactly. And I said that I've been saying that since all this stuff even Peter talks about, like I've been saying that stuff for like 10 years because it's because it's from the fitness industry. It's like easy to understand that if you have more testosterone, you have

more energy, you have more better mood, you have better metabolic function processes, and you're going to exercise more. If you're going to, you have better metabolic function processes, and you're gonna exercise more. If you're gonna exercise more, then your health is gonna improve. Your metabolic health improves, your cardiovascular reduction goes down. But research is only, it's a problem is research is only meant

to look at the outcome of one variable. That's right. And we're so multivariate in our systems, like longevity is, you know, it's food, do boomers are losing. And it's funny to see the shift actually. Like, because you guys, when I first, you know, to met you guys and Craig was still here,

it was a fucking long hair. You know, you were too wild and out for him. Like, your, your, your enemy at the gate was, you know, the, the overhyped shreds bad information. And it's like, we've turned the industry like over to the adults all of a sudden. Like, it's been a weird shift. The focus of you guys, you guys are now,

you know, you stayed sort of centered in your principles and have been able to look at the industry kind of do this pendulum swing. It's like, why are we listening to all these old people? You wanna talk about longevity with old people? Make sure grandma doesn't fall over. That's a low-hang, right? 100% hit two.

That's a number one cause of break. You're hip and where does that come from? Well, why? Because their muscles aren't not only not being used from a motor output standpoint, like getting up out of a chair, unassisted is one of the leading predictors of all cause more talent.

But if we start to look at muscle from a sensory, from a principle perspective, it's like, hey, we can build, like we can go through a process of like neural polishing or neural sharpening with a muscle spindle and we can actually change how a muscle contract, not from like an e-fair than a-fair in, so motor out sensory in,

we can actually have a sensory, we can initiate a muscle contraction with a sensory input, which is what stability is. It's a gamma motor neuron loop between a muscle spindle and its respective core level, right? So if I have someone who I'm training who is elderly and I get them to stand on one leg and they're always like, they don't know,

their hip hasn't been trained. I can put a band on her knee and strengthen the motor output. But for her, I need the sensory input, right? And that's where like, you know, we can sit and talk about these funny supplements that, or you know, that increase all of these things in your blood lab, or I can look at someone be like, she can't stand on one leg. She has four stairs to get into our apartment,

right? I'm going to have to stop by and gram a Christmas gifts in a few years because if she eats shit, she's, you know, the statistic, I think, on a broken hip and broken ribs are similar over the age of 65, the 50% of people are going to die within a year. And we're having conversations about supplements in the Amazon. What are we doing? Well, that's exactly, come back to the principles, right? And that's why, I mean, I mean, I need not

to promote the false data, but it does increase bone density. And that's what our trial showed as well. Increases lean body mass, has body recomposition effects. So it helps you to lose fat, increase lean body mass, and increases bone density. That's why we're doing our phase two trial in Japan because they have the oldest aging population

for doing it for sarcopenia and osteophenia. And so that's the reason it, but the vision with the technology is that we want it to have access to every basically old person on the planet because there's no harm and there's so much benefit for it. All right, I'm gonna ask you a question at the risk of pissing off Jordan, but we're going to take a quick just a little detour to supplements is creating the ultimate longevity supplement

that's available over the counter largely. Would you say? In my opinion, way protein and creopier and maybe HMB are the top three. The top three. I would say so, yes. And again, where did they come from? The bodybuilding world, right? That's where we come from.

HMB for people who don't know. It's a metabolite of a losing, right? Exactly, yeah. Anticodabolic, three-gans a day, hugely protective. They put that in some nursing homes now, put that in there. They should be for every ICU patient, they should get that too. But like, again, the hospital systems don't look at this stuff.

But because it's so important, there's been studies done on that and how ICU patients, one week in the ICU bed, you lose like ridiculous amount of muscle. I can't remember the exact percentage, but it's a lot. And to gain a back takes a lot of time. So if you can do anything that's anti-cada ballic, it's gonna be hugely impactful under a clinical.

Now for someone eating a ton of protein, already eating a gram of protein per pound of body weight, you don't, HMB weight protein waste of time, right? Creating still good though. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Cree up here weight, you don't HMB weigh protein waste of time, creating still good though. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, Cree-Appeer isn't, you can't go wrong with that. And I mean, I think there's a lot of talk about, but again, they made headlines, Torine,

but like, it was like an animal mouse study. And then there's like everyone's talking about Torine as the best anti-aging supplement. And that's the problem with this community. They're just trying to like anything, like any research headline, they're just promoting the shit out of it when the foundation is the foundation.

It's not going to change, but it's not sexy and you can't keep making headlines off that. I love what you Jordan said about the principle. Sticker to the principles. I want to go back to what you said about what you hate because we went over it real quick. And to me, it's a lot of things. Well, this is for sure that one of my biggest pet peeves, the thing that we probably have to talk about more than anything else because it's always some TikTok fucking trainer that's posting some new hypertrophy eight week study about how this is the best thing for this.

This is the rep range. This is the time for you. And so we're always having, because it doesn't align with maybe the something that we present. It's like, you guys are fucking stupid if you think that this is how it works. Take that study out for a year and then tell me how well it's working for you. And then I can show you something else that's completely opposite of that. And it'll work just as well.

So explain that for us for our audience because it is something that we're always. Eight week hypertrophy studies are dumb. Yes. Oh, yeah. I mean, just to the one thing is looking at exercise for hypertrophy and itself is dumb. Well, like, you know, I think at a certain point, you need to understand the nutritional subcomponents that drive muscle hypertrophy, right? And the thing that we're actually looking for

is a building of tissues. You're going to need available resources. So the very premise of an exercise, I think there's the immutable principles of muscle hypertrophy are probably gonna be length and load. Yeah, right? Now, length and load, then we can dive a little bit more into resistance profiles

and strength curves. But I think understanding performance, is just such a loosely understood term. Like a friend of mine, a coach with us at a pre-script of one of our educators, Killing Hamilton has this idea of a runway of progression, right? Like how long is a runway of a progression of an exercise? Because there are exercises where like, you know,

if I have a bilateral bent over dumbbell row, right? That will top out at a certain point. Or comparing a squat to a bicep curl. Right. There's completely different, the whole adaptation process, the learning curve, everything. Which, so if you take an eight week study on those two things, you can't compare them.

And it's just the idea is we need progressive. And I think one of the nomenclature slides of hand that have sent people a rye over the years is the idea of progressive overload. No, I don't want to piss anyone off, but the idea is we need progressive overstimulus. And I think there's a difference between progressive overstimulus. I'm gonna steal that.

Okay, great. Yeah, go ahead. Make sure you do it with the walking thing too. On the head, is it my, this camera? On the head, who loves walking, whatever. I'll sell it, don't worry. Yeah, so the idea of progressive overstimulus, it trumps the idea of progressive overload,

because it also incorporates progressive overload. That's right, right? So progressive overload stimulus is my preferred on the LL term for what we need. Now there are exercises that become impossible to, not impossible, but become inefficient to continually over stimulate. So that's why bodybuilders classically,

and they might not have landed on this principle, but they are embodiments of this principle. Like you've ever trained with a bodybuilder, I'm sure you all have. You obviously, in your career, has probably done some really dumb shit. How many times have you just run the rack on a dumbbell ladder?

Excuse me, pardon me, you just flop in your wings all the way down into the women's section. You have pink dumbbells in your hand. And it's like, well, you know, it becomes difficult with bodybuilders, and the reason they're always coming up with more creative stuff is like, you know, imagine you went out and did a recreational drug

and your first drug was heroin. It's like, well, where do you go from there? Right? Now, it's, so that's kind of the thing, when you're dealing with clientele, is like, you need to understand their baseline recoverability at this stimulus level that they can tolerate now. That's right.

And then some people like, you know, I trained with a bodybuilder in Dubai when I was living there and every single exercise on legs was a top set to 12 to failure. The next set was a rest pause set at the same weight. The next set was a single drop set and the next set was a double drop set. Did you do this workout too? Dude, it's nuts. Yeah, I did. It was Jamie's name is Jamie Derego.

Just from up. Oh, dude, you're just like, well, because it's hard when you know this stuff and you're like, the first set would have made me die. Dude, I'm crushed. I think you're crushed. And it's, it's the point now, with you understand the physiology and you understand like, you know, in that world, the enhanced physiology, and you can look at this, and don't look at it from a research thing,

look at it from a principal's base. What is this guy's free to solve external levels? What is this guy's lifestyle? Drigo's got two dogs, back in his villa, and he's gonna take his long hair, whatever. And he's gonna wake up, he's gonna graze to the fridge, he's gonna graze his big ass back to the couch,

through a couple client check-ins, and then he's gonna go to bed. So it's so easy to look at, well, this level of training fridge, he's gonna graze his big ass back to the couch, through a couple client check-ins, and then he's gonna go to bed. Right, so it's like, it's so easy to look at, well, you know, this level of training volume, it's like, yeah, but we, look, everyone tries to play his own, we're in this world, you gotta play the man, right? Like, you gotta take a look at the person,

and like, you know, that's why I think biomechanics is a vehicle of, or exercise as a selection as a vehicle of biomechanics is so important, because the idea of an underwriting stimulus of an exercise is like what people need to understand about, right? Like does your body know the difference between a squat and a leg press?

Depends on how good you are at each of those two things, right? If you can manage at high volumes, that demand of muscular co-contraction, then sure, maybe the squat's gonna have some ancillary benefits if you can't, and that can be transient. I've had clients who come in, like, you know, when I work down the road at Stanford, one of my clients is a cardiothoracic surgeon.

They work kind of like firemen. So let's do Paul Hypo, he's not listening to this. Maybe he is, fuck on. People that are listening to this show, Jesus. He would spend like four days in Napa with his dog, and then he would come back and be on call at the ICU cardiothoracic trauma surgery for like two days in Napa with his dog. And then he would come back and be on call at the ICU Cardiotheraic trauma surgery for like two days straight.

So I'd see him after like 17 hours of surgery, right? He scrubbed in, shitting in diapers, replacing lungs, replacing splines, all this stuff, and then he would come into the gym. Well, post Napa Paul can do a squat with technical proficiency to something that is probably an approximate of, you know, muscular failure at a local level

at the addoctor's quadrically. Right? But you get Paul after a 17-hour surgery. It's like- No, you're in a lay extension. We're in a lay extension, maybe some lay press. Right? But the stimulus is the same.

So we're still able in a program to progressively over stimulate those muscles. He can still make tons of progress. Yeah, context, context matters. A lot of regulation, and a lot of people don't know how to auto-regulate. But here's what I want. I want the death of the saying and the personal training industry.

We are just going to go light today needs to die. Right? Because we're always going to go heavy, but we're going to constrain the loadability by the exercise selection, and that's the fundamental principle. It's a property, it's a property. Yeah, and we modulate not by changing load, but by changing the loadability of the movement,

changing the exercise. And if we understand the fundamental stimulus that we're driving, we can always progressively over-stimulate. Mm-hmm. You're like a philosopher from the real world. I do, I can. It's been a lot of time of myself. You know that we always have to do a follow-up episode

to translate everything you want in this episode. So yeah, yeah, your podcast is always two podcasts. We do podcasts with you, and then we do another episode of Translate. We need to translate later. Yeah, sometimes. So I'm gonna go apply it. Work out appropriately.

Yeah. Your certification is done phenomenal things. People comment on it. They talk about how amazing it is. I can see why. I mean, you really put everything you have into it, and you've just constantly learn and grow, and this is pretty amazing stuff.

You must be attracting people from all walks of fitness and even medicine to your certifications. Are you getting people like physical therapists and occupational therapists? It's funny, the cross section, power lifthorism, sure. The cross section is just the intersections of the stuff I'm passionate about. So like we get, you know, trainers and coaches obviously.

And I hope that'll always remain because that means I'm keeping a finger on the pulse of, and I'm actually staying active in training people face to face. Right. Like I don't think it was a week that goes by that I'm not training with someone. Also, the people that are probably impacting the most people are. Yeah. And that's what we're after, man. Like we're after like the meta impact.

And I kind of tell that to all of our students out of the jump is like, look, I care about the 30 of your clients, or the 40 of the 50 of the 100, or the thousands of clients will have over your career. Like you're a vehicle, you're a vehicle of this information. You want to talk meta impact. Like how many downloads do you guys get a month?

Right? So there's a responsibility, and there's an accountability that comes with that. So PTs and coaches are, I think, a direct representation of how much that I do. And it's funny to see the shift, like, you know, in the last four months I was on the road, primarily in a strength coach position. And then you start to see our intakes draw in more strength coaches, right? Or if I'm doing things in a more clinical designation, like, you know,

during the NFL season, I'll probably travel more and do more clinical work, and we start to pull in more clinicians. So, we'll have everything from physical therapist, chiropractors, osteopath, any manual medicine sub discipline, physical therapist, sorry, personal trainers. And now we're starting to, as we look to bridge the gap and having relationships with a deal has helped this, we're starting to get more of the conventional

medical community, like we're starting to get a lot of medical doctors starting to do this. That's awesome. Yeah, it's nice because you know what, I think ultimately the common trait that the people that come into our community have is that they want to help people. That's right. And, you know, a lot of people use that trope in like a self-proclaimed virtuous way. But, you know, when you start to actually deal with the systems

that are built around these things to safeguard people, you start to realize, look, some of these systems are actually limiting my ability to help people. Right, so- This is why I love personal trainers so much. I don't know anybody who became a trainer because I want to be rich. In fact, it's a terrible way to become rich.

But they all really genuinely want to help people. You know, you're arming people with the tools and the knowledge. What we try to do is to build the, the philosophy of the towel. Like this is the how, and this is how you approach things, and here are the ways that you, you help people and work with them,

but they need the tools, and so we're very, very fortunate to have people like you, put, you know, stuff out like that. It's not a lot, not a lot, there. That's a favorite that you teach. Do you have a favorite like group of people Do you have a favorite group of people? Do you like the clinicians better? Who do you like to teach the most?

It's tough, man. I think I really like teaching the athletes. We run a calm mind program every year that puts 30 of the top 300 NCAA. It's gotta be because the adherence. It's the adherence, but it's the idea of like look, you know, it's the meta impact at a level where, you know, if the specificity matters, right? Because you know, you teach a lot of these young kids what to look out for in their career. And that's like a big thing.

It's like, if someone ever tells you this, man, like I give all these kids my number, so I've been doing comp, fuck, I've been doing comp, I prefer almost a decade, really intensely for the last three or four years. And so I'll get, you know, I've seen guys all the way through doing comp, fuck, I've been doing comp, I prepped for almost a decade, really intensely for the last three or four years. And so I'll get, I've seen guys all the way through their career, unfortunately, in some cases with the NFL having the issues in managing load and the risk and that's associated with playing,

but I'll get guys who I put the recombine two, three, four years ago hit me up and it's like, hey man, I got scaffold lunatic dislocation. Like they wanna do this, like no, no, no, like fucking non-surgical is the move. Here, go talk to this person, right? She's the best hand therapist in the United States. Go talk to her.

Right, so it's, those are people that I like, just because the outcomes are like the impact is so big. Right, like, it's like some people watch them, listen to them, they have huge influence also. Yeah, and it's, you know what, they didn't get there. They didn't get there by like knowing the human body. They knew the game, right? So I think it's been really unique to, and from a communication standpoint,

it's all something that's grounded me because, you know, I get that a lot. Yeah, we have to do another podcast to translate all the shit that Jordan said. But working with athletes and keeping my finger on the pulse, especially kids coming out of a four-year college division one program who just want a ball, right? They're gonna get the bag. What was Zae Flower signing bonus? Like seven million dollars?

Like, yeah, fuck it, dude, make your bread, dude. Like 100%, I'll be your biggest fan, but they've helped me refine my delivery down to a level. And I teach coaches this. I teach like, so I'm gonna tell like a little bit of a story. I grew up in Windsor, Ontario, and three minutes from where my parents live, there was a gun seizure. It's like kind of a rough part of Canada. It's like right opposite Detroit. And I loved it. It was the most poetic collection of guns I've ever seen. And it really stuck with me. There was a 22, a Benelli 12

gauge pump action shotgun and an M72 single shot rocket launcher. Okay. Right. Yeah. Well, wins it represent five for nine on the map. Yeah. One up, one up. I want to explain access to it. But it's odd. But it's so beautiful because like if you know guns, you're like, oh, 22, someone breaks into your crib,

they're gonna, yeah, you shoot the guy, right? The bill burjo. You just want to shoot the guy. The 12 gauge, it's like, you're gonna have to redraw wall after. And the M72 is like, yo, my neighbor's dog will shut the fuck up. Right?

So, but I work on when I contextualize, principles that I learn, especially when I talk to him, and I'm translating some of the really, really technical stuff, it's like I need, and I've heard Neil the Grass Tyson talk about this too, it's like understanding how to communicate in sound bites relative to your audience. So the working with players has allowed me to create my 22.

I can sit in circles with him and his colleagues with the M72 single shot. And I just sit there like this. Let me ask you a question, ask me a question. I'm gonna go nuclear. It's useful to have that and still trust colleagues and different disciplines. And when you deal with athletes,

we kind of get siloed in our own world, it's talking to other fitness professionals, but going there to like, communications degree four year, Syracuse or Florida State or Alabama or Auburn, Georgia, whatever, oh, I need to actually refine my accuracy with my 22. Right, I've been sitting here thinking

I'm some sort of academic marksman with an M72 and I'm just blowing shit up. I'm blowing people's hair back. So that's been for me like the most useful is actually teaching an individual athlete who's like, if such a peripheral really need to understand it. So what gets the message through is one, like the passion.

Like I'm in this shit. I'm in their face. I'm on the ground. I got my hands on their foot, I'm taking my shoe off, I'm like, I'm like sweating after every session. So that kinda gets them in the door, and then it's like, well, how do I communicate to this guy who, you know, once he signs his contract,

once he gets his name called, he's gonna make $7,8 million, and he's got there not everybody knowing this. So then how do I communicate a way that makes sense in long term, we'll stick with him? So I think that's been for me the most beneficial because I'm so focused on the M72 for so long, right? As in school, I'm coming into the industry, social media, I don't look like I work at the docks

so I should probably try and sound really smart because I look like I deal drugs for a living. So but now it's like kind of bringing it full circle and it's like okay, how do I actually bring it to the masses? So yeah, that's been my kind of my favorite. I was wondering how young you are too. City Miles dog. You forget because I look terrible. No, no, no, no, because you sound, I mean, you're obviously well. Jordan, what, what, you said to that, maybe pose a question. So what sport presents the most

challenges with load management? Oh, that's a really good question. Honestly, I probably wouldn't have said this up until this year, but professional tennis is getting up there. Interesting. Because if you look at the planes of motion, if you look at the repeated sprint ability, if you look how much time,

and if you look at the schedule, there's no tennis season. Right, technically now we're coming off the US open and there won't be another slam until January, but you need to earn, you kill what you eat in that game. Right? Tennis players are fucking dogs, man. Like they are, some of the hardest working athletes, they're the most health forward, and they have no help.

The ATP is probably one of the most unprofessional, professional sporting organizations there is. Right? There's not like, there's a commissioner. Right? And we get into the money side of the ATP and some of the issues that they're having and they're actually the first They didn't have a player's association until very recently, right?

So looking at tennis having a close proximity to that Football has to be up there depending on the position just because of the physicality Right, you're also the other variables people are hitting you at the same time Like there's nothing that creates muscle, and we know this from a principal standpoint, there's nothing that creates muscle damage, like high velocity e-centric. What do you think getting hit by Vita Vaya is?

Yeah. Dude, homeway, I'm telling you, in the first 10 yards Vita Vaya on a line with the Auntie Johnson and Debelle Samuel is nose to nose. You know, do the physics. I, why not? If you ever watch that sports night show, they actually break it down.

It's like the equivalent to like seven car crashes. It's some crazy shit like that. Every single Sunday, right? So, you know, the ability to manage load and just understand like, even at a basic level at a muscular level, what's happening and the tissue repair demands that are there, I would say soon after that would probably be

mixed martial arts. UFC, because there's so many. Well, you can't understate the role of sympathetic drive. Of course, pain. Have you ever been in a car accident? You don't really feel it until three or four days later, right? So they're tough to manage around fights because the adrenaline is so high. The sympathetic drive is so high.

So I put those two top two. I'll never guess tennis. That's cool. Always fun. There's always fun. Absolute blast. Having you on, man. Both of you guys were great meeting you. I'll never guess tennis, that's cool. Always fun. Dude, we keep going. Absolutely blast having you on, man. Both of you guys, great meeting you. Yeah, no, it was a lot of fun.

Hopefully I gave everyone something like the perspective on like the Salon Jean therapy. It was exciting. He just did this so research that he won't get killed. So, it's like enough people will know me that they can't kill me. We're going to talk after his documentary. Yeah, I guarantee we'll stay in touch for sure. So for sure. Thanks for going on. Thank you both.

Thanks for having us. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at MindPump Media dot com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maps and a ballad, maps performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased, expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs.

With detailed workout blueprints in over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money bag guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at MindPumpMedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindP Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.