Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2282: How to Get What You Want With Jen Cohen

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

The art of being able to negotiate and build relationships. (1:29) Where did the skill of being a chameleon come from? (5:45) The delicate science of balancing femineity and masculinity at the same time. (7:15) Why she is immune to rejection. (16:12) How people overvalue the importance of looks. (22:24) Celebrating the first anniversary of Bigger, Better, Bolder. (27:33) How she made the podcast happen with the Son of Hamas, Mosab Hassan Yousef. (29:25) The constitution her husband has. (43:47) Shifting the dynamics in the relationship. (44:48) What podcast guests surprised her? (51:00) Going off on internet marketers and masterminds. (55:29) Her 10% target method for success. (1:00:28) What makes her anxious? (1:05:01) Shining a light on good friends in the space. (1:09:20) Transactional vs. genuine relationships. (1:13:57) Why people are not having relationships anymore. (1:19:50) Related Links/Products Mentioned Special Launch: MAPS Performance Advanced ** Promo code PALAUNCH at checkout for $80 off (Bonuses: Grip Strength Reference Guide + Eat for Performance + 30-Day Money Back Guarantee) ** Ends March 3rd, 2024 February Promotion: MAPS Performance | Extreme Fitness Bundle 50% off! ** Code FEB50 at checkout ** Legends of Learning | Math and Science Games Bigger, Better, Bolder: Live the Life You Want, Not the Life You Get Habits and Hustle Podcast - Son of Hamas Reveals Shocking Details About Hamas and the Israel-Palestine Conflict The Green Prince (2014) - IMDb Mind Pump #2267: Dave Asprey Uncensored Practical Optimism: The Art, Science, and Practice of Exceptional Well-Being Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Jen Cohen (@therealjencohen) Instagram Habits & Hustle Podcast @MosabHasanYOSEF Twitter Dave Asprey (@dave.asprey) Instagram Mark Cuban (@mcuban) Twitter Max Lugavere (@maxlugavere) Instagram Mike Matthews (@muscleforlifefitness) Instagram Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (@drgabriellelyon) Instagram Ben Greenfield (@bengreenfieldfitness) Instagram Patrick Bet-David (@patrickbetdavid) Instagram Arthur Brooks (@arthurcbrooks) Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness health entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today, we had one of our favorite people in the space back on the show. You've heard her before, Jen Cohen, she has a very popular and successful podcast, Habits and Hustle, and this woman knows how to get what she wants. She's extremely charismatic, she's got some of the best people skills we've ever

seen. We don't know how she does half of what she does, but she does it and she crushes. So if you're into success, if you're into entertaining stories or learning how to live fearlessly, you do not want to miss this episode. Also, we are launching a brand new program, maps performance advance. This is a workout program for people who want to perform like hardcore athletes. By the way, you could customize this program for the type of sport that you play, but this program literally develops strength, power, speed and agility.

And because it's a launch, you get a discount off the price. You also get free eBooks. So here's what you gotta do. Go to mapsp2.com, use the code PALaunch, they can see $80 off. And then here's the eBooks that get included for free. Grip Strength Reference Guide and E4 performance. All right, here comes the show All right, listen, you're the only person we would ever let take one of our chairs really nobody

There it is any guest who wants to come on the show if you even try doing that you're getting you're getting kicked out So why am I the lucky one? Why am I so special? We like you a lot. I like a lot of people. There's a lot of people we like But you there's something there like a lot of people. There's a lot of people we like, but there's something there's a special quality about. In fact, we talk about this. We don't know how you do have the shit that you do. Really? We don't. I mean, we know, but we don't. It's insane. Really? Yes. You say it to all the guests. No. No. I remember when you started your podcast and now you've got these celebrities and stuff on your show. That's

actually a really good conversation for the podcast is to talk about the art of being able to negotiate, to build relationships, to get people to do that. It's a crazy skill. It is a skill. It's also an undervalued skill in business that a lot of people don't know to even ask about because I mean, I 100% know that this the success that I've had is completely on the shoulders of other men and women that I stand on. 100%. It's the ability to build relationships with other brilliant people and attach myself to them. And very few people know how to do that. You do that when I've leaned really hard into what I'm, I guess, maybe more naturally good at because I'm so bad at most things that I had to learn to be resourceful and really kind of exacerbate that quality. That's the first part.

That's where we're a lot of like. Seriously, I think that's really, that's probably how it is because you are very similar probably in that way. And I think that the authenticity that I'm not trying to be someone I'm not, I'm very authentic, either you like it or you don't, you like me or you don't. And so like the people that I do get along with well, it kind of, the relationship really kind of flourishes.

You also have this trait that my wife talks about that like she thinks I'm the only one that has it, it kind of the relationship really kind of flourishes. You also have this trait that my wife talks about, that like she thinks I'm the only one that has it, but I think you have this trait too, where you have this ability to be kind of dickish, but then people still love you for it. You get away with it. Like having to take your seat.

Yes, yes. No, that's a good example though. Like that could come off really like rough for somebody to handle that. And you, so you have this ability to be very direct, sometimes brash, borderline dickish is what I'm a dick. Basically. Okay. I like, but then you, but then also we have this like redeeming quality of like,

how does that person not hate her? Or like, but they sometimes do hate me though. Oh, I mean, that's- I don't think so. Who hates you? I don't know anybody- A lot of people, I mean, I wouldn't say people may, they may not hate me, but they don't appreciate my dickishness as much.

Right? Because this is the truth though, right? Like I, again, not to kind of like belabor my point of like asking for what you want and being bold. Sorry about that Justin, but it is coming up. You know, the truth is like- Every podcast.

Every podcast. But no, but it's the truth. It's like, you know, the way I see it, like, well, if you do something in a nice-ish way, people usually respond. It's when you are kind of like, when you come from a bad place or you're, or you're, I don't know, like just a dick,

but maybe you're saying I am a dick. So I don't really know why it is. No, there's a difference. And what it is is that most people that want something, right? They try and find a roundabout way or manipulative way to get there. Yeah, I'm not manipulative.

Where people like you and I have this ability to cut right through the bullshit. I'm just gonna go right for it. It might rub you the wrong way. It's unfiltered, but yeah, it's well received because it isn't like you're hiding it. You're trying to like do something to get something on somebody later on. You know what I mean?

You know what I think it is? It really kind of sum it all up. I think that what my skill is, I have a high EQ. I think that I can read people and situations fast and then adapt accordingly. So knowing like how you guys are, like how you are so, like how you kind of are so like you torment Sal

with your, I'm gonna say handsome also, handsome also. Of course, that's obvious. You're gonna get some smart, funny, amazing. And yourself, exactly. And yourself, everyone's very self-deprecating in this room. They don't take themselves seriously. Like, I can play to that, right?

If you guys were super conservative and really, I will pick up on that, that, and I will kind of, I would kind of, I won't be as rash. You're a chameleon, you're a chameleon. Yeah, like I can adapt. And I can kind of, I can become a chameleon when necessary based on who I'm around. However, if I don't connect with somebody

and like I can feel it really quickly. Yeah, it's like oil and water. It's like oil and water, yeah. And then like- And you just don't waste your time. And then yeah, exactly. I just don't need to like bother. So I know where that skill comes from for me.

Do you know where that comes from? Yes, I think I don't, I think when I was younger I didn't feel good enough. I probably felt like insecure when I was younger or I didn't feel good enough. I probably felt insecure when I was younger or I didn't feel smart or whatever that was. And so I literally, I had to really kind of go big on the other qualities and build them up. So because I was a bad student,

I had to learn to be resourceful and build on my personality, right? Because I didn't really think that I was smart enough. And so I built on my personality or like I built on my sense of humor. And so, or I didn't think I was pretty enough. So I built on, you know what I mean? So because I thought I had a deficiency in one spot,

I really tried to excel or build up another area. And so, and I think everybody who feels that way does that. Like in a way, like being mediocre or feeling like I was mediocre was a real strength to me at that point. Well, you're obviously not mediocre, but do you think it's harder for women to be straightforward and bold than for men? Do you think they get perceived?

Okay, talk about that because I can see how a man, they might say something like, well, oh yeah, he's, he's intense, but where the woman, they might be like, oh, she's bitchy or something like that. Or right, she's too aggressive. She's too, well, yeah, because I think what comes, what happens a lot is that if a woman is too bold or a woman is too aggressive, they come across too masculine. And so that can turn off a man. And this is a problem actually. I think this is becoming a really big problem in society, because what happens,

and that's why a lot of very successful women are single and can't find men because when they have success and they have a stronger personality, it takes sometimes away from the femininity and then like it becomes very combative with male energy. So what I find to be very, very difficult and it actually is like a delicate science is how to balance femininity and masculinity

at the same time. Like how can you be aggressive? Like how can you be aggressive? Like how can you be a sort of and ambitious but also keep your femininity without coming across to masculine? This is a reason why I'm so curious and interested to hang out with you and your husband. So like I've brought it up multiple times. So many times. Yes, where I want Katrina and I to hang out with you and her because I know that and I also know that it takes a hell of a guy to balance that with you. So like, I already know he's going to be this guy that I'm going to like because.

And so talk about how you're able to, because you have to be able to do that. And I know he's a super confident, good-looking, successful dude. So it's not like you married some like passive, soft-spoken, woozy kind of guy. And that's what typically would happen. That it is what normally happens. I'm just being real. No, no, no. What normally happens with a woman that has a very strong personality like you,

she bulldozes most men and the only, and then marries a guy. No, seriously, marries a guy. Which also, it's also builds resentment. Right. Who is, who ends up being passive and whatever like that. And he takes on all the feminine energy like that. I don't. So, and I have a wife that is not like that. She's very like you. And so we have,

that's why I want the four of us to get together because I know we will have this interesting dynamic because it takes a very special partner to be able to navigate that. I agree with you. And this is what I want to say. I can, let's talk about this for a moment because I do believe there's a lot of, there's so much truth in what you're saying. So to your point, I think when, like Noah, he's super confident. He is my biggest supporter and fan. He is, like, he has all the things. Like, you know what I mean? He is attractive. He's successful. He basically, we have a very similar, we're very similar. And he's a guy version of me, which by the way can backfire a lot.

Like a lot of times that doesn't work very well. And what happens typically is I feel like girls who have a very strong personality either have that, like a guy who's super confident, who like, I believe women need to have a man in their life who is better than them, who is more successful than them, who is richer than them, who is more athletic than them, more in shape than them. I think you have to have that type of situation, or else the woman loses

respect, or loses attraction. I don't believe this thing where it's like, oh yeah, I'm a girl who has, I'm smart, I'm pretty, I'm successful and I wanna be with a guy who is less than that, who is less successful, who has less money, who is less fit than I am. It's impossible. No, there's plenty of research on this. There's a lot of research on this.

Women date, Latter on Up. Latter, they want to. But doesn't mean they do. No, but that's typically what they want. They want. That's what they look for. Whereas a man tends to go across and down in some cases.

Well, there's that, there's that, there's that energy that, that men, uh, tend to want and women tend to want. And when it's flipped, uh, you often see resentment build, uh, either on, in both sides. Well, what I think happens is this is what we're talking about. The math, uh, balancing the masculine and the feminine energy in a woman who is both sides. And David shows that. What I think happens is, this is what we're talking about, balancing the masculine and the feminine energy in a woman who is successful or of a strong personality. The women who end up with these men

who are more meek and insecure and more feminine than them. They become their mothers, don't they? They always do. But it's because it's the women who aren't able to acknowledge and recognize that they have to still play in the feminine. They have to, they can't always be the masculine, hard, rough way. Did you have to teach yourself that with Noah? And is that something that you guys have evolved or did you have it with him? So interestingly enough, like in my personality, as strong as I am in a lot of ways, typically

what happens I think in my personal life, I tend to, not aqueous is the wrong word, but I tend to play into my feminine more on the personal. If I'm with a guy who is much more alpha than me, which is a complete necessity, I automatically become much more like demure and feminine. It's when I'm with a guy who is so like B, like, so like what we're saying, like the ones who are kind of like the beta, who are kind of like more feminine and they're not as this or not as that. I feel like I have to take control.

I have to be more alpha. I have to be more this. So like, it's something that happens like very innately in my, and I think I pick up on that. So like, I part of like the EQ that we're talking about earlier is like knowing and having the self-awareness to understand when you need to play up your masculine, when you need to play down your feminine.

And the truth of the matter is like, a lot of the times like you're always saying to me, how did you get this done? How did you get that done? Like, well, truth is, I know very instinctually when I have to be more feminine and play into my feminine strengths and when I have to play into my masculine strengths and I believe if any girl who sits here and tells you that oh that's not like they don't have that's that doesn't that's not really that's not very woke or whatever like 2024 to say that because it's very like on it's very uncouthed or very un-PC to say that they're lying to very uncouth, they're very un-PC to say that,

they're lying to you. Because you do have to deal with, you have to deal with like other sexes in your life. Like if you're a girl and you are trying to get ahead, you play into the strengths that are gonna help you move forward. And if you say that you don't, you're lying. So walk me through like that reading process.

You're just meeting me for the first time. We've never met before. And it's, okay, but what I will walk you through, but it doesn't happen. It's not like, it happens naturally. Like I don't even know what's happening. I know, I know, I know. Because it's like, so who I am already.

Yeah, but you've done it so many times that you know, walk your side. There's probably a slope. So like for example, like you and I, like you and I, like look at the, look at the shirt behind you with the Rodman 91. I have exactly the same thing in my house. We talked about this, right?

So like in my gym. So you and I automatically have like a good banter and a good chemistry. I'm not talking romantic chemistry, so everyone calm down. But I'm saying like you and and I get along really well. We like jive really well. So it's easy to kind of like vibe off of you

and like talk with you. So like, because I feel like it's natural and easy, I'll like, I have no filter. So I'll say whatever, I'll do whatever, I'll joke around with you. And like in joking and like all that, you build more of a rapport. So to me, I try to keep everything like very like fun and easy, because that's how people end up liking you. You become much more likeable. I don't like when you're too like conservative and formal and like say all the right things and

do all the right things, it's really hard to like build past a certain point in a relationship. Yeah. You're also doing something subconsciously, whether you know it or not though, is that you're reading when you're doing that. Like you, you're letting, you're helping someone let their guard down. So like you, and your body language, I can read your body. I can look, I can read your eyes. I can read how you're looking at me. I can read where you're like, how you're sitting. Like you're sitting like this, like you're open, like you're not like sitting like this away

for me. Like all these like little like intricacies of like body language and how you're responding to me, I pick up on those things exceptionally quick. It's like kind of like I'm like a savant in that way. Like I just, I think my brain, that's how I've become successful. It's because I can pick up on social cues, emotional cues, body cues, really quickly. It's because you were telling it. You said you had to practice it so much. Well, there's, there's, there's like all skills. I'm sure there's an innate part of it, but then there's also the practice part of it, which, which means you've probably put yourself out there and talked to a lot of people and put yourself in a lot of situations that a lot of people might consider scary.

In other words, if you wanna hit the ball, you gotta swing a lot. A lot, it's very true. Right, so you've probably put yourself out there a lot talking a lot of different people, even though, and now what comes along with that is a lot of rejection. That's the thing I'm really interested in because that's what prevents people

from doing that is rejection. Why don't you ask that girl out? Oh, what if she says no? Why don't you go talk to that person that you want to get on their show or you want them on your show? What if they, it's weird, it's awkward or whatever. You seem to be okay with rejection.

I am okay with rejection. I'm very okay with rejection. How many times have I rejected her with companies? Yeah. Exactly. Okay, exactly. She's giving me shit to lust. Oh my God.

I've said these guys so many brands. And they just keep on like shooting me down. Adam is very, just for your audience, they're highly particular of what companies and brands they work with. It is unbelievable. I've sent them so many things to like look at. And Adam Poupou's 99%.

Okay. And this is money on the table. And it's money on the table. So these guys are as legit as they come. No, it's true. It really is true. But now I even forgot the rejection. The rejection. Yeah. Well, this is what I okay, this is what I was going to say to you. I think there's a few things I think that I am completely immune and desensitized to that feeling of rejection. And I think that like with anything in life, you do something over and over again and so many times,

it doesn't bother you as much. So I've had so much rejection in my life. I've had so many failures in my life that at this point, what's the difference? Like I feel also like the more things I've failed at, the more opportunities have actually opened. So why not try? And I always think like when I wake up in the morning, I always think like, well, why not me? And if it can happen to that person, why couldn't it happen to me? Like there is like this like naivety about my personality. Like I never like see anything as my shortcoming. So like, so like even now,

like I'm old, I'm not 22 anymore, but I don't let that stop me or hinder me from attempting to try something. So I'll always say to myself like, well, what's the worst that can happen? I try it, it doesn't work. All right, I'll move on. I'm nothing lost. And so if you reframe and shape every thought into that type of mindset, then you won't even allow yourself that, that chance or opportunity to count yourself out. You have to have a strong internal sense of security for that to even work. Because if I look, if, if, you know, if I, if a little kid comes up to me and says, you're not strong, I don't care. Like we have a little kid, like it's not going to bother me.

Right. But if I was 14 years old and another 14 year old kid came up to me and said, you're not strong, I feel, I feel insecure because I wasn't already secure with myself. So you must also have this kind of internal security where you're like, I already know who I am. Yes. She also hit the three greatest predictors of success in somebody too, by the way. Okay. You said, so there's, there's a level of narcissism, which healthy narcissism that you believe, why not me?

I'm self-defeating. I should be able to do that, right? Right. Then there's the other crippling part of I'm not good enough, all these things that I'm not good enough for everybody else. And then you have this drive and this vision and goal of trying to reach that. It's, it's the greatest predictor of success. Those three, those three qualities.

Yeah. And you just literally nailed them in order right there. And so you have this thing where it's like, yeah, why not me? I should be able to do that. You have this also understanding that like, oh, I'm not enough in all these other areas,

so I gotta overcompensate in this other thing. And this ability to focus, my hobby is to learn. And then it results in success. And I think also overcoming adversity, and it doesn't have to be a major trauma that you've overcome. But I think that a lot of times you build your confidence with basically seeing yourself win even at small, small things.

And I trained my brain really young for this, right? Like when I was small, I naturally would, because I had to be more resourceful, because I didn't feel smart enough, pretty enough, all the enoughs. And I bolstered up my other qualities, like my personality and my sense of humor and my resourcefulness.

It worked out for me. And because I had these little wins over time when I was young, it built up a true self-worth and a self-confidence in myself to make attempts. And that's why I was going to say a couple of things to you. First of all, that's why I think it's really important for kids when they're young to start building their confidence. And they do that by... By trying and failing and trying and succeeding.

By resilience, but self, I mean, that's funny. I'm actually working with a company called Legends Now, which is all about building confidence in kids with these five minute exercises. It's actually incredible. You guys should, if you guys have kids, it's like if you're a kid between like, if you have a kid between six and 11,

it actually is something that you should really work on. And I'll tell you why, because it's about self-talk, self-efficacy, self-confidence. And self-efficacy is one of the big ones, right? Because if you feel you can do something, you'll attempt at it, right? So how do you do that? And you have to start with these things at a young age,

building this resilience. The problem is today in society, the coddle culture, parents will do everything for their kids. And then they're creating these very fragile children, right? Where the kids that are growing up now are very different than how when we grew up, right? And that's what I'm worried about. I'm worried when I look around at my kids now and the parents and all the things, the parents like everyone's getting a participation trophy, the parents are not allowing the kids to fail and they're not building grit.

And so at the end of the day, grit is the most important quality, I think, to learn to be successful in life. Do you think, I'm gonna say this first because I don't want this to come across, well, I think you're a very attractive woman. I think you learn to be successful in life. Do you think, I'm gonna say this first because I don't want this to come across, I think you're a very attractive woman, I think you're very beautiful. So you say you weren't good looking as a kid, whatever.

Oh my God, say it again. No, no, I wanna say that first because do you think that that would have hampered you as a kid to be told you're so pretty, you're so beautiful, you're so, and then to feel like, oh, this is my value. Yes, exactly. So listen, this is the thing. I don't wanna come feel like, oh, this is my value. Yes, exactly. So listen, this is the thing.

I don't want to come across like, you know, oh, I was like the ugliest kidder. I don't mean it like that, you know? But I remember there was one girl that was like known to be the most beautiful girl in school. And so that is what, and like, I- So you compared yourself to that. I compared myself.

And I always hated, and you're gonna be, I always hated my nose. I always wanted a nose job my entire life. And my mom would take me to the doctor. And not even for like my nose, but like for my physical, cause my mother would always say, I shouldn't get one. And I said to the doctor,

mom, I don't wanna get my nose fixed. He's like, it's not that your nose is too big. Your face is just too small, Jennifer. The doctor said it. Yes. What? So I remember thinking, oh shit, my nose really is that big.

And so that's why I thought it was ugly. And then I was always afraid of, I'm still onto this day of surgery, I'll never do anything because I'm scared of it. But that's where that ugliness came from. So then I would work on like my body, I'd work on my hair. But that's what I meant. I don't think I'm ugly. And I think I grew out of that stage because things worked out for me. After, you know, I also didn't, you know, whatever the point is, why am I even digressing to my looks? If someone said to me when I was younger, yes, you're so beautiful, you're so beautiful all

the time. I think what would have happened you're so beautiful, you're so beautiful all the time. I think what would have happened as everything would be, I would be only focused on keeping my look and that would be my value. But because, and by the way, I should say, I was considered to be really pretty and cute as I grew up. I shouldn't, I don't want to lie because I don't, people are going to be like, that's bullshit. She was not ugly when she was small, but you know what I'm saying.

Your perception is everything though. But my, exactly, but my perception is everything. But because I felt that, that's why it was even more incumbent upon me to build out all these other skills and assets that I thought I had. That's my fear with my girls especially, it's cause so much of media and places so much value on beauty, especially for girls that, um, and I tell

this to my daughter all the time, like, you know, cause she's, she's pretty. And so in her friends' time, I said, honey, that is so down the list of important qualities. I said, first of all, you, you are a beautiful young lady, but that's going to go away at some point. And everybody loses that at some point. I said, that is not yourself. I said, yeah, right. I said, that is not your value, you know?

Because if that becomes your value, which is not that valuable, people think it's so like it's not, it was very short window. And then you lose that and what are you left with? You're left with nothing. Also, this is what I learned really quickly. I agree with you.

I also think that people overvalue the importance of looks. Of course. And I think that that's what, like a lot of these girls I know, even now by the way, with Instagram and all this other bullshit you could have the the hottest smoke show on the planet and then you get to know this girl and she's as lame as they come as

stupid as can be and have no other qualities to like to Call from you don't want to be around her You don't want to spend time with her if you're a guy you may want to sleep with her once or twice You don't want to be around her. You don't want to spend time with her. If you're a guy, you may want to sleep with her once or twice, but that's it. Her level of actual self-esteem is so below, like, it's so terrible.

And so what I've noticed in life, and that's what I was saying about how really not important looks are, you have to be, let's be honest, you have to at least meet a threshold. If you're attractive enough, that's- I think healthy is what you're looking for. A healthy or okay, or attractive enough. Yes. Right. But if you are, if you walk into a room and you're super confident and you can carry a conversation and you're charming and you've got

charisma and all those things, that makes a person who's a five, a 10. If you walk into a room and you're a 10 in looks, but you're a zero in everything else, you become a two, right? And so to kind of wrap this all around, I've never ever felt insecure or less than when I've been around the biggest supermodels of all time going to a room. I never felt insecure or less than because I knew my value

was way above just what I look like. And I truly believe that from within. And I think being around people who also don't only value what you look like is really important because growing up, my mom and dad would always be like, you're so beautiful or you're so this. So like it built up my sense of self and my self esteem. So like as a parent, don't, don't,

don't, I guess don't just point out things that are so trivial in the long run. Like make sure that you are pointing out things that have like longevity to them, you know? And that like effort is more important than how you look or like work ethic or productivity or whatever that is. You know what I mean? Absolutely.

Absolutely. I want to hear, I want to hear about what prompted you to write this. I mean, the title is, had you told me you were going to write a book and what should you put the title? Well, this is a year anniversary, right? I know it's actually, so exactly. It's on, it's bigger, better, bolder, and now it's paperback. It's like sitting by itself on the table.

How's it done, by the way? It's done good, it's done well. You know what? I've been remiss in pushing it as hard as I should have just because of all the projects I get myself involved with. And finally, as pushy as I am, and as aggressive as I am,

when it comes to stuff like my book or this, I don't love doing that. I want people to read it and love it and enjoy it and take pieces of it because without me having to jam it down their throat. But what it is basically, it's all these principles on how to become bolder in your life.

So it's not just a one, like a one man shopper. Like if you want to become bolder in your business, it's about how do you stand up for yourself and ask for what you want in all areas of life, your personal life, your business life, in relationships. Because the truth of the matter is to be happy and feel fulfilled, it's not about just like taking care of one piece of the pie and having a lot of money. To me, that's like the silly thing to even think of. It's about having a very fulfilling relationship and feeling satiated and who you are. And like people don't now, especially in where we're living in the society, we don't kind of take that into consideration. We're all on social media. We're not like having these really satiating, fulfilling relationships. And it's like unless you design and curate the life that you want, you're not going to have it because there's too many distractions.

Well, tell us about, I want to hear about your podcast. Cause I remember when you started it, I remember you, you, you came on our show. You're like, you know, I should start a podcast. She had that same exact feeling. These assholes could do it. Why can't I do it? If these yahoo's can do a podcast, why can't I do it? I hope we inspire.

Yeah. You really did inspire me. Right. Thank you. But you, you, you crush you. You really did inspire me. Right, thank you for that. But you're messy. But you crush it. You're absolutely crushing it. And you're not just interviewing interesting people. You even are interviewing people you debate with

or disagree with. I think you had someone on recently that, you know, there's what's going on with, you know, between Israel and Palestine. You had somebody come on that was representing. I had the son of Hamas. Yeah. Okay, how did you organize that? That that was representing. I had the son of Hamas. Yeah. Okay. How did you organize that?

That one was insane. Okay. So talk about that. How did you work? Were you afraid to put that up and to speak? Like what was the deal? First of all, by the way, I don't know what if you're, I'm very much very outspoken and become a big activist for what's happening with Israel.

And because truthfully, and you may like lose subscribers because I just said that, but this is the truth. I feel that there's been a lot of hate thrown at the Israeli side and it's completely, it's like, it's unfair to be honest. And what happened on October 7th really awakened a giant in me and it really bothered me in a big way. Because it was such a brutal massacre. And because of propaganda and spin and less Jewish people than there are of the other side, we've had like, we've gotten the shorter end of the stick.

And I believe it's really important to speak up for what you know is right and to do what's right. So- So how did you make that podcast happen? Who is that? So because of that, I chose to spend a little bit of my time speaking up and getting people who have the real perspective,

who've been there, done that, lived it on the podcast. So let me just say that. Okay, with that being said, the son of Hamas. So who is the son of Hamas? Okay, so the son of Hamas is the son of the leader of Hamas. So the guy who started Hamas back when is this guy, this guy who I had Musab on my podcast is his son. And he's in hiding. Are you kidding me? He's in hiding. He is one of the hardest people to get to. He's impossible to get to.

Not even one in the heart. He is like, it's impossible. Why was he in hiding? Is he because people because people want to kill him. Like all the all the pro-Palestinians hate him because he's speaking, he's speaking out against them. So he, so let me just back up a second. So he left, he basically became a double spy. So he was working for the Israeli intelligence,

but while also working for his dad, he was his dad's right-hand man. That's crazy. So it's like the story is the most compelling. How did you even find that out? Well, it's like, it's because, so he had a movie made about him called the Green Panther. Is that what it's called?

Uh, the green, not the Green Panther. I'm like, it's Look up Santa Claus movie. Oh, it's, it's, it's, he's very famous. So, um, so he had, he had a major documentary made about him. He had a major book written about him. And then when the green prints, thank you. I don't know why I said the

Panther, the Green Prince. The movie is called The Green Prince. His book was called The Green Prince and he was, he's very well known. And when this whole thing happened on October 7, he came out and started speaking out against the atrocities basically. So everyone knew him and he was speaking out at very specific news outlets, but no one knew where he was because everything was blurred in the back or he started doing videos himself with a blurred background. And so I was like, I need to get to this guy. I need to get to this guy. So I started to like, you know, talk to a bunch of people who knew people who got me his, basically got me his email address. And I emailed him.

Now, were you, okay, were you at all scared? Because you're saying he's got like a target on his back. Oh, he's got a major target on his back. He doesn't go anywhere without a shit ton of security. So I email him and I got this girl who was kind enough to help me get, get, like kind of get to the right person. Like she was kind of like my partner in crime. Her name is Kyla. We got to him and he emailed me back like days later saying, I'm in L,

like I'm in LA today and tomorrow. I want to come on your podcast." I was like, okay. So he's like, he sent me, I kid you not, he sent me a pin of where to pick him up and at what time, a pin. Like basically come to this location at this time, I'll be waiting for you. So he assumed that I was coming with like a trailer of security.

No, I drive up in my car, like it was like the Keanu Reeves back circa when I was 17 years old and my mom's cutlass supreme. This time I'm driving a Range Rover by myself, same thing though. And I literally drove by myself to this location, waiting in my car, looking from right to left, seeing if he's gonna come out anytime soon.

I called my sister, cause I was waiting like five or six, 10 minutes already, and I'm like, I think this was a scam. Like, I don't think it was him. I think someone else like responded. Like, maybe he's not coming, maybe he's not. And as she's like, yeah, of course it is, probably for sure a scam.

Like, you should get out of there. And I'm like, yeah, you're probably right. I hang up my sister, I look behind my rear view mirror, and I see this, yeah, you're probably right. I hang up my sister. I look behind my rear view mirror and I see this guy in sunglasses really like running towards like on the street like walking really fast and I'm like, oh my god, it must be him. So I get out of my car. I'm like, wassup? And he's like, yes, are you Jennifer? I'm like, yes. He's like, where's the security? I'm like, I am the security. Let's go. So we get into my car and of course,

of course there is so much traffic. It's like the middle of rush hour in LA. Okay? So I'm stuck now. Oh my God. Oh, this is what happened Adam, you'll die. I can't believe I haven't told you the story. I know you haven't.

Okay, so then we're in the car and he says to me, you know, like I'm very recognizable. I got to be very careful. I'm like, and I say to me, you know, like, I'm very recognizable. I got to be very careful. I'm like, and I say to him, I'm like, come on, like, who's going to recognize you? You have a big beard. You look like every other Middle Eastern guy. Come on. And, and, and so.

And we drive and we're then on Robertson, which is like a big street in LA. We're at a, we're then on Robertson, which is like a big street in LA. We're at a we're at a as a red light and Basically with this rush hour traffic and like my windows are kind of tinted like their quasi tinted But not fully tinted and this woman was in front of me She put her baby in the car like on that She was putting her not like she was putting her baby or young kid in this car. And then she was coming around to go into her driver's seat. And she like looked into my car window

and like did a quick double tape, like a double take. And she ended up like tripping on her foot, falling cause she saw him in my passenger seat. And he looks at me, he's like, told ya. And I'm like, I guess you're right. And then we kept on driving. And then he's, we're like driving in the car. Can you imagine, what am I talking to this guy about in the car for like an hour before even the podcast, we're driving up, we're going into like, we're turning

right into my, my street from my house. And he's like, uh, I want some coffee. Can we go to Starbucks? And I was like, I want some coffee. Can we go to Starbucks? And I was like, okay. So then to go like around to go like a Starbucks, like 25 minutes again away from my house. And we go to the Starbucks and like we're going in and people are like looking and double taking and like freaking out, like thinking it might be him,

not him. And then we have, we have that. Then we go into my house. We do like a two and a half hour podcast, three hours. He ends up playing with my kid like basketball and then he asked me to take him to Whole Foods and then to Error One and people went bananas, okay? Bananas because they recognized him and people were like taking videos and pictures and he was getting really upset they recognized him and people were like taking videos and pictures and he was getting really upset.

And so cause he didn't want to have that like type of attention. And so then we had, I had to like get him in the car and then drive him home. That's his say the only re it was crazy, but I will say that the only reason why that happened was because nobody expected him to be at Whole Foods. No one expected to be at Starbucks. So he felt safe. Yeah. Cause nobody's waiting there potentially. Nobody's waiting there.

It's when somebody knows you're going to be somewhere, it's when it becomes a big danger, right? And I wasn't allowed to post my stories until like, because they're to real time or whatever. To real time. Are you at any moment like, like afraid or worry? Everyone asks me that. They're like, are you like, people are now going to come to your house and like,

I think this is the naive part that you talk about. This is the naivety is a strength. Everyone asks me that. They're like, are you like, people are now gonna come to your house and like, you know. I think this is the naive part that you're talking about. This is the naivety is a strength. I was so excited, right? You didn't know you were supposed to be terrified. I was like, so like, I was so like excited about the fact that I got this guy to not only come and do my podcast,

but like do it in person, do it in, not on Zoom, but do it in person at my house for like so many hours. And then as I'm interviewing, Kim, he says to me, like, this is like, you are interrogating me worse than the Mossad and the Israeli army, because I was asking like every detail, because I was so interested in like, well, how do they, how does Hamas like indoctrinate people? Where do they hide these things? How did it, what happened to you?

He was telling me details on that podcast that he's never really explained before. Did that cause anything? Did anybody contact you from our own security? Did anybody say anything? The podcast has done exceptionally well. You know, I'm not big on YouTube as you, as you know. Um, and but that podcast crushed it and like people are sharing it and resharing it.

And I get contacted by all sorts of exceptionally high profile people. Like I should, I deserve a P body for that award. I mean, for that podcast because I was, I like drilled him down to like, I, like he would say something and then try to move on to the next topic. And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait, go back. You were saying this precise thing. What does that mean? How do they do it? Explain exactly. And the reason why I was doing that was because I was, I wanted people to understand at the core level of what is really happening there because he was on the, he was on the Palestinian side. He was on the Israeli side. He understands the truth of what was happening. And it was

fascinating to really understand like his life, his life is so insane. And now he's living like in hiding. Like, do you insane and now he's living like in hiding. Like do you know how crazy that is? Like to not be a you cannot be a normal father. Yeah and like and his family not only that like his entire family like he's been he's been obviously ostracized from his and his entire family. How did the falling out with his dad happen? I mean, how did he end up going the other direction? Because he, I think what happened, from what he explains is that culture

is so atrocious in itself. Like it's about, he explained like how he was raped as a young boy and that was nobody defended him and it was something he had to swallow. And because they, it's all about suppression, a suppression of your sexuality. So like, because you're not allowed to have sex with someone who's like, you know, you're equal, right?

Cause it's looked down upon unless you're married. And so then like they're like, have they're raping young boys or raping people. And he was explaining in detail or heing people. And he was explaining in detail, or he was noticing how like he was put in jail for weapons. And he saw in the Israeli prison when he was arrested for being armed or whatever, not for, they couldn't keep him there

because of, well, actually it's not what happened. What he was explaining was in jail, he saw his own people so brutally kill their own people that it like turns something in him, where that's when he turned and he horribly just how disgusting and deprived the culture is that he was grown up in. And you don't know what you don't know, right? Like if you only know that, then that's your normal, right? It's only when you step away and see what life really is on another side is then when you can actually, by the way, I haven't looked at you once, Justin. I'm so sorry.

It's okay. You're in a role. I'm not. I'm so sorry. I'm not trying to look at you here. You're in slow state. I'm listening to the crazy story. I apologize. No, don't apologize. His, his, so basically like he saw the depraver, like how, how despicable it was on that side. And I guess what happened was when the movie came out or the book came out, his dad obviously found out.

And I think he played a double, he was a double spy for Israel for over 10 years. Wow. Yeah. And so he had to, like he got them a bunch of information. Did you tell your husband ahead of time, like, hey, I'm gonna go interview this dude. Everybody wants to kill. So, I mean, you know what's so interesting?

It's not that he's laid back, he's so mired in his own shit of war. He works like an animal, he works like that he, he's like, oh my God, that's great. Anyway, like that's the thing like, and then like I walk in like, imagine Noah's life with me though, cause like people are walking in and out of that house.

Mark Cuban comes in one day. Mark Cuban's walking in one minute and then like the son of Hamas and like he's like on a work call and like the son of Hamas walks by him to play basketball with my kid. And he's like, oh, hey, like it's like, it's kind of like, oh yeah, cause the son of Hamas is always just at my house

in the middle of the day, you know what I mean? But he's so used to that type of like cookiness and craziness. But he's crazy, like I don't know if you guys know this because I don't think I really spoke with you guys. Maybe I told you Adam, do you know that my husband broke his neck in his back six months ago?

No, I don't know, you didn't tell me that. He was, he's a daredevil and he was on a, actually on a mountain bike and he was going down a mountain bike and he flipped over the, the handlebars and broke his neck and his back. And he like, they've never seen anyone walk away from that alive or not paralyzed. Oh wow. It's, it's unbelievable.

And he did. And now he's fine. Thank God. But why I'm bringing this up is his constitution is so different and unique than anybody else I've ever met in my entire life that he walked himself into the hospital. And as like they're like telling him he has a broken neck, he's like working on

a work call. Like he didn't miss a freaking beat with a broken neck and a broken back. So that's just the constitution that he has. I want to talk about Noah a little more because I think I do. I know you want to I mean I was no no go for it. I really am so curious about your guys's relationship because I think you should have a podcast with Noah on here. I would love to. No he wouldn't do it. Yeah. But only because he hates the media and all that kind of stuff.

That's like Katrina. Katrina's like no social media, no nothing. Yeah, neither. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's all anti all that stuff. She would never get on here either. So it's so funny. I mean, that's why.

That's so funny. That's what makes it work really well. I'm so curious. That's why I'm so curious. And I really think that the four of us would just have a blast together for sure. So one of the things that when you have relationships like yours, I think like mine is and you have this kind of delicate balance of masculine and feminine is sometimes you have to play the opposite role a little bit.

And can you think of things in your relationship like that? I'll give you a head start with mine. Like so like it took me and it took me a while in the relationship to be okay with this. Like there was this part of me that, you know, and this is gonna come off probably wrong and some of you mad at me, but I don't care. So it's just, it is what it is. I had a real hard time with Katrina not caring

about our house being as neat and organized and clean. Is that what you're saying? And I remember like going through like a year or two of like really being frustrated with that. And then I realized like, okay, if this bothers me so much, this is not in her second nature to do this. Why don't I just fucking, I'll be the dishes guy. You know what I'm saying?

It's not like she's not doing something for us and the team. And so she's assumed like another role that she always does. And like, I've now become the person who does the dishes every single night like that. And it, but it took like years in the relationship for me to kind of shift that dynamic. I get what you're saying. So is there things like that in your relationship that- It's interesting you say that. Like will you get out and change the tire for the car if the car gets flyer? I mean, he doesn't even know how to do that unfortunately. But I will say, I think, like you're, I'm actually very similar to your wife because I'm very disorganized. And like, actually this is kind of like, I'm bad.

This is not gonna be that shocking with administrative, with organization, with like the kid's calendar. Like I forget to put things in the calendar. So he's had to assume that role more. So what role have I had to assume more? I mean, the difference is he travels so much where I feel like I have to kind of step in a lot. That's the big issue is because his job requires

a lot of traveling. So like I had to take a back seat. I don't shock you to hear, but like sometimes I have to take a back seat because I don't want my kids not to have a parent around all the time, right? So there's that whole issue and I kind of feel like he's very good with the schedule, like organizing and

understanding the calendar more and I'm really bad at that. And I think he had to become better at that because I'm bad at it. I'm trying to think of what I had to do. I had to be around, I had to kind of adapt my ambition because of his schedule. I had to take a little bit of a backseat a little bit.

Does that cause like a, uh, okay. So it is hard. It's gotta be really difficult too, because you guys, and this is a very, I have the same, we have similar type of challenge, right? Katrina. I mean, I remember when Katrina was still an executive for a massive construction company, getting up at five o'clock in the morning, working till 10 at night while I'm having all this success.

Yeah. And then we have a kid and thank God she had the epiphany herself. Like, what am I doing? Like I'm leaving my sick kid at home and I'm taking off to this, this construction job that really is not contributing anything to our financial with all in pursuit of, you know, wanting to have her own thing and be a killer herself and stuff like that. So that was like a,

I think that I think it's like a natural thing. Like this is the thing, right? Like I'm not willing to like work to the point where my kids are going to have to take like to suffer, right? Like that's just more who I am as a person. I don't want to be that mom. And I think the difference between being a total killer and that masculine energy that we talked about before versus having still a feminine side, like part of me has like, I guess I have like, I'm a little bit traditional in that sense.

Like I want my kids to have a mom. I want to be the one to take my kids to the doctor's appointments. I want to be the one to make my kids their breakfast and their lunch. So if those things are going to happen, I'm not able to be the workaholic that it would take to do that.

Do you know what I mean? No, totally. So like, it's not even so much because of Noah. Noah would be like, okay, just get someone to help. Like we'll get someone to do those things. So like, I'm not okay with that. Right. Like the thing is like, I'm not, like that's not how I was raised.

And I don't want that to be on my kids' memories because I think that's really important. So like those are the ways that I feel like that would happen, but I will say one thing about, Noah is exceptionally social. Like to a point where it's like, he'll go to the opening of a paper bag, like he will do anything.

I don't want to do that, okay? It's true though, like, you're like, oh, that paper bag is opening. Let's go. And I'm much more discerning and I'm highly, I know it's gonna shock you. I'm very critical and I don't love everybody. Like I'm discerning on like who I spend my time with and what I do.

And quite honestly, being a mom and working like a dog like I do and having this like, this like go getter energy and mentality is exhausting. And like when you're talk to people all day, the last thing I want to do is go out and go out and talk to people. What do I give a shit about? You know what I mean? I got to pretend that I care about these idiots.

I have no interest. He would do that and he'll go out to like five in the morning. And I'm not talking because he doesn't do drugs, he doesn't drink. It's like natural energy. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't work for me. So we're like not balanced in that way at all. And so that becomes an issue.

I'm just being honest with you, to be honest. Have you, so one thing that we just talked about this earlier is that we've been surprised so many times by the people we meet through the podcast where we think one thing and then we meet them and it's totally different. Like it just happened yesterday. We had Dave Aspery on the show. None of us were really looking forward to the interview to be quite honest. Yeah. He comes on and I mean he's not what I thought. We were firing back at each other. It was hilarious. He's quirky. He's teasing us and I'm like, I think I like this guy back at each other. It was hilarious. He's quirky. He's teasing us. And I'm like, I think I like this guy a lot.

Totally shocked and surprised me. Does that happen to you often? It happened with Dave Asprey actually. Also. Yes, I watch him on social media and he comes across like kooky. Like not like, and then when I've actually met with him in person and interviewed him,

I actually liked him much better in person. He seemed much more of like a real human being than when he did when I- Who was your biggest shock? We had him on Zoom almost two years ago and we never instilled it in care for him. It wasn't until he got in person, then we were like, oh, wow, okay.

I like this guy. I could see that. Like, in fact, I think he's supposed to be on my podcast again too, funnily enough. But who has that happened with? So many people. Who shocked you the most? Is there anybody that you're like, oh, wow, funnily enough. But who has that happened with? So many people. Who shocked you the most? Is there anybody that you're like,

oh, that's totally different? Oh my God, so many people who I liked or disliked. Either way, either way. I mean, if you want to talk about who you disliked, I can't be here. I know what I was gonna say, that's probably dangerous. That happens, I wouldn't say dislike. There's been a couple people who've been on,

this is what I find happens a little bit. When they seem so engaging and affable online, and then you meet them and they're like completely the opposite. Not that they're highly affected, and they wanna have like their, everything is like, is for like the camera or for the interview where they take themselves too seriously. Who have I had on though recently that I've,

who I was like, oh wow, this guy's actually not bad or this girl's not bad. Gosh, that's a good question. We've had a lot of people. We've had a lot of people. What do you think of Mark Cuban? Did you know him before? I liked him so much.

He was probably in my top five, three favorites. Did you know him before the podcast? I met him. And I'm like, you're coming on my podcast. So that happened because I was trying to get to him forever. And then I ran into him at an event and I went up to him and I'm like, I'm so-and-so, blah, blah, blah. When are you gonna come on my podcast?

Now that you have this big company that you are the pharmacy thing, maybe you can come on it and he's like, okay are you gonna come on my podcast? Now that you have this big company that you are the pharmacy thing, maybe you can come on it and he's like, okay, I'll come on your podcast. And then he gave me his information and I harangued him as I'm sure you can imagine. And then one day I was like, fuck that guy. He's never even emailed me back.

I'm gonna email him right now. And I was like, Mark, when are you coming on my podcast? And there was no bullshitting around. And he wrote me back in like two seconds. And he's like, I'm gonna be in LA tomorrow shooting a shark tank. Do you wanna do it then? And I was like, yeah, okay.

And so I rearranged my schedule and that's how that happened. And he came to my house. Like this is what I love about him. There was no pretense at all. He shows up, drives himself, he drives himself in an old beaten up Lexus that looked like it could have been like,

it could have been like the cashier Ralph's car, you know what I mean? Totally non-pretentious. And I was like, basically I'm like, this is the car you show up with? Like a 1987 Lexus. I mean, aren't you like worth, I don't know, $8 billion? And he's like, yeah, but I like, this is the car you show up with. Like a 1987 Lexus. I mean, aren't you like worth, I don't know, $8 billion?

And he's like, yeah, but I like this car. I don't really care about, and I was like teasing him about the car. And I loved how down to earth he was. And at the same time as being down to earth, he had like a dickish streak in him where you can tell he doesn't give a fuck. He will say what he wants.

If he thinks something, he's gonna say it. I really appreciate that personality type. And, but also at the same time, like knowing who he is, having a humility about him and having this like down to earth quality. I really like that. How do you pick your guests for your show? Are these people you're interested in?

As people, what I do is I don't care if someone's famous, not famous. I don't look at the following count. Like I don't do any of that because I think all of that is a bunch of shit. And then when I have done that thinking, you know, oh, that's the way, maybe that will help me with like,

you know, we can collab exactly. It ends up being a terrible podcast because I'm so disinterested in what the person is. And I hate these internet marketers. I refuse to have these, you know, mastermind coaches come on my podcast. I will not, I refuse to have it. I want to have real people who I can have a real dialogue with

who have like real time, real advice to give that is practical, actionable, and that they've had the experience. I'm not interested in having people on who are coaches, who their only thing that they've ever done in their life is it's basically coach you to buy their program and therefore now there are seven or 10 figure income because they basically like completely hustled you

out of your money because they're good at funnels and good at like sales tasks, which is what it's all become. Yeah, I hate that. I hate that so much of it. And I know. You know how much this is driving me crazy. I'd be posting about all the time.

I love you for it because I talk about this incessantly, because this is what the world has become. It's if you are a good internet marketer and you have that quality down, automatically that means you're a good motivational speaker and you're a good coach. You know everything, you're knowledgeable. And you're the best serial entrepreneur.

I wanna get my entrepreneurial advice from actual entrepreneurs who've done the thing, scaled the business, built a business, have failed on a business offline. Once you do that, maybe then we can talk. It's like that book, it's like, how to make a million dollars, teaching people how to make a million dollars, you know?

It's like, get out of here. But I feel like it's become so, it's like, get out of here. But I feel like it's become, it's become so, it's like harassment because every post now is somebody selling you their mastermind. And now you're spending 25,000 to up to like 250,000 on these coaching programs. You just said something that's, I think so important because it bothers a shit out of me too.

It's on my mind a lot because I can't stand how much of it I see. And you said something I think that it because it bothers a shit out of me too. It's on my mind a lot because I can't stand how much of it I see. And you said something I think that it would make it so easy for the average person who's attracted to all these people to filter through this. I'm not paying for your coaching business unless I know of a business that you built outside offline. If you haven't done something in the real fucking world, at least once or twice or three times, and I want the guy or the girl who's done that 10 times. 100%.

I want the Mark Cuban type of personality who's like, tried to build 30 companies, failed at 15, was successful on 10, okay, and killed it on one. Like that's the person I want to hear from. Not somebody when you ask them, well, what's the business? Oh, well, I have this coaching business. I know, but what's the business you built? It's my coaching, but no, that's well, what's the business? Oh, well, I have this coaching business. I know, but what's the business you built?

It's my coaching, but no, that's, that's, that's, that's how you're manipulating people to give you money. Right. Well, their business, what they say their business is, is teaching you how to be a coach, how to make money on that's not a business, a pyramid scheme. That's all that is. And it's also like, I find like the, it's all about these funnels and these master. So what I don't understand is these people are now spending up to like $200,000 on these

masterminds where you're now sitting in a room with a bunch of other people who aren't where they want to be or maybe they are where they want to be. But like you're now paying for people's contacts to what to go to a spa and to like I've been I've been approached by like all of these masterminds to enter their masterminds and it's all the same like well in order to get into this mastermind you have to be making this amount of money and be at this level and then you're going to pay this amount of money this now you're going to pay this amount of money to be around like minded people at like some resort. And I'm like, I don't need to basically, I don't want to pay for friends. That's the bottom line. I don't want to pay for friends. You know, but that's also why it works, because why it, why it's perpetuated, right?

And there's so many of them is because you have people who don't possess the same kind of skill sets that we have to go and meet people and build relationships. And then they get put in, they pay to get put in a room with seven other people that are, or more that are at the same level as they are, or above, and they make contacts and relationships. And then the way they just further like, I guess I really didn't learn anything at this, but I met so and so who helped me with this and they were strong with that.

And it's like, and so they go, Oh, that was worth it. And then they do the next one. And then they do the next one and the next one. That's reverse. Well, and then they do the next one and the next one. That's reverse. Uh, what is that where you're confirming what you did backwards to make yourself feel better? Like, oh, I spent 200 grand. Yeah.

But I met that person. So I guess it was worth it. It's like, yeah, they're trying to make some feel, feel better. Well, the way they're going to justify it is basically say you got to put your, and I, and I agree with this concept, but I don't want to agree with how it goes. It, well, how it How pervasive it is, is you're putting yourself in a room where possibility can happen,

where opportunity may happen based on the approximate, by the proximity of who's around you, right? But if you took the 50 or $100,000 to be in that proximity, what would happen if you took that $100,000 and put it towards the actual business? Or put it toward digital marketing? Let me ask you something about that.

Oh, you're here. I know. Yeah, I'm glad you noticed. You're very focused over there. You guys have a lot in common. Yeah, so you're very good at getting people's attention, at putting yourself out there, at finding these very specific guests

that you want to interview. Now, somebody, like we get this question all the time and people starting podcasts that are really focused on like interviews and that's not our dynamic per se, but so if somebody was to kind of start up their podcast and seek out these types of guests, like what's sort of that formula?

What's worked the best for you? Obviously there's going and meeting in person places where people are. Uh, what's the email process look like? What's the call process look like? How do you like figure all that out? That's a good question. Well, this is a thing, right? I think you take all your transferable skills.

So like I, I'm not coming into this situation cold, right? I think you take all your transferable skills. So like, I'm not coming into the situation cold, right? I have some good experience behind me. I have a few contacts in my back pocket. And so what I do is I create a pitch and then I would DM them. If they don't answer, then I will email them. I will find a per, I basically use my 10% target method, which is part of the bigger, better, bolder book. So my entire philosophy is this thing called the 10% target, which is making 10 attempts at whatever you want most.

And I use that to get the guests on my podcast. So you don't give up until you've made at least 10 attempts. At least 10 attempts. And the truth is, if I don't make, yeah, because it works, because the truth is most people don't even make one attempt. Almost nobody makes two attempts. So if you're somebody who makes three attempts, four attempts, just on pure volume.

You stand out right there. Yeah, you're gonna have success. And I promise you, if you don't get to that goal, because I'm not saying you're gonna get to that goal every time, but going through that process, another opportunity will 100% present itself that you never knew existed. So to give you an example, let's say I want, make, you know, make someone up. I don't know who else, like whoever I want. Let's use Mark.

George Lucas. Okay. Sorry. Okay. Let's use Mark Cuban. George Lucas. Oh. Okay, sorry. George Lucas. Okay, George Lucas. Selfishly. I'll use Mark Cuban just because it's an easy one.

I want Mark Cuban on the podcast. Well, I will DM him, but I didn't get a response. So then I'll like find some email. I'll email him. That never went anywhere. Then I found a friend who knows a friend who got to him, asked him, he kind of was like, I'm too busy now. You know, I went through another friend.

That's now four attempts, five attempts. Then on my sixth attempt, I went and met him, not by, I mean, he was at an event that I was at and he was far away and I made my way to him. Yeah, and I asked him, I got, he bit, he bit. And then it was still not a conferred confirmation. That's still number six attempt. I emailed him that seven on the eighth email on the second email. He so happened to be in LA and then I saw him the next day.

That was, that was attempt number eight or nine. Now, a lot of times I'll do a similar thing. I won't have the opportunity to go to an event or see someone or know someone. But usually by the 10th attempt, something else would have hit where I would get in contact with somebody and they're like, oh, I don't know Mark Cuban,

but have you heard of so-and-so? He's done this amazing thing. I'll do an intro on text with you. And then that has happened, which then led me to, you name them, Lindsay Vaughn or whoever it is, where it may not be that particular person, but it took me on an entire path that was as fruitful, if not more. So what I try to like instill in people is just because you don't have that thing now, that doesn't mean that that won't be the situation tomorrow.

So get it with like, you know, get the be brave for 10 seconds and go for that thing and just start because it's really easy to overthink and then think to yourself, well, I don't know that person and I'm not good enough really easy to overthink and then think to yourself, well, I don't know that person. And I'm not putting it up. I already bothered them and they said, no, they didn't respond.

And they said, no, or I'm like going to be annoying and then therefore, like just do it. And like, you're not any worse off tomorrow or today than you were yesterday, right? Jen, what makes you nervous? What makes you anxious? Cause you seem like you don't really get nervous or anxious. Like are there things that you do in your business or job or are there things that you don't do? Cause you're like, I don't want to do that.

I think I get very overwhelmed when, with administrative stuff, but like besides that- Thank God you got, you hire somebody. I'm sure that you have a sum of the different. I'm bad at that though. I'm really bad at like delegating a lot. And so what happens is I end up putting too much on my plate and I get a lot of anxiety from that.

And what also gets me nervous or anxious is you're gonna be very surprised, but I still do it. And I do it because I hate it, is public speaking. I hate it. And I have one coming up on Thursday. It's for a bunch of CEOs in downtown LA. And I get very nervous. Do you hire a speech, somebody to help you with your speech?

Well, I had a woman who initially helped me, but I find what happens in those situations is that I feel like it's like I'm reading something and it's not natural. So I'm trying to like find the balance of like taking my notes and making it much more comfortable. But it's kind of because I hate it so much that I keep on putting myself in that situation because I feel like I'm going to get better with more practice because that's what I practice. Right? Do you have ADD? Are you ADHE?

Oh my god. Yeah, I'm really bad with like time. Like I'm very bad with that. Yeah. Cause you seem neurodivergent. I don't mean that a bad way. I'm the same way. And you're, you're listing all these different things. What do you say neurodivergent? Neurodivergent would be like the umbrella term for, you know,

ADHD and, you know, like dyslexia and all these other things underneath that. Really? Why do I steam it? Because you're, like you said, time management, you hate administrative disorganized, but then you have other qualities of ADHD. Like you'll go after things and you'll get the ability to hyper focus. I mean, you're in a room full of people with degrees. I feel like every, a lot of successful people have it.

I know you, Adam would have it. I don't, I didn't think you. Oh, I'm the worst. He's worse than I am. Yeah. for sure. It's the A majority it's so a much lower a disproportionate percentage of entrepreneurs Could you could you imagine I'm gonna tell my chair you some some behind-the-scenes stuff? Yeah about him to confirm like these bad He is right, so nine years. We've been doing this right and this is one of the founders

We have meetings every Monday. Like literally he can't fucking sit still in his meeting about his own company, learning about his own money, learning about all the things he needs to do. He can't sit without grabbing his phone and getting on his phone like for nine years. Katrina has to like yell at him to give me your phone because he can't- They're very understanding. And then he'll start crushing the can yes yes five minutes is all I have to there's two it's like a light switch it's either hyper focused or none yeah there's nothing in the middle are you serious super frustrating yeah just disinterested in the covers that like just really tell me where we're at in a month or whatever wow

thankfully I have partners I can trust you know who handle those types of trust these are like your brothers. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm like your sister. Yes, yes, yes. When can I start coming on like once a quarter? I really do love you guys. We can do that.

You too, Justin. We have a... I'm glad you included me. I'm just teasing you. I like to tease you. No, no, I mean you've already become a... How many times have you done it now? I don't know.

I think this is four, isn't it Oh probably four. Yeah. Yeah, so before Three what was that says the best lighting you've got I know thank God. I know I appreciate you notice She's already been here three times Disappointed though because that might not be the lighter. I know watch know. Watch me get the clips and be like, what the fuck? I was thinking. I'm telling you. I know. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's probably what's going to actually end up happening. No, you look funny. You know, because that's just kind of the part, another part of the ADD, right? But anyway, what was, no, yeah. So I've been on yours, what, three times or four? Twice, three times? Maybe, I think I'm going to be on the third time. No, this is going to be four too, because you were in LA twice,

and then we did one together, and then this will be four. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We did some YouTube together too. Oh, we did the cooking show. Oh, that was at your house, I forgot about that. Oh my God, we did the cooking show. I love having you on because you're so knowledgeable.

Have you met other, okay, other podcasters like? No, you're my favorite. And by the way, now that you smoke up my ass at the beginning, I can now blow smoke up your ass at the end, okay, other podcasters like- No, you're my favorite. And I, by the way- You say that to everybody, you do smoke up my ass at the beginning. I can now blow smoke up your ass at the end, okay? You guys, I tell- It's a cervical ass blowing. Yeah.

It's a smoke blowing. You used to revive people back in the evil times. No, but I literally tell everybody that you guys are like legit my favorite. Like I feel such a like nice connection with you guys. I've met a lot of podcasters as I'm sure you have too, but you know what, none of them take your place. Like none of them.

Who else is your favorite? Who else do you guys like? Well, we love you. Max Lugaviers Gray, love him to death. We have a lot of good friends in the space. Who else would he put up there that we're really up there? Mike Matthews. Mike Matthews. You would actually, Mike would get it off.

Oh, Mike Matthews. Legion. Legion. He calls it metabolic Mike. No. No, no's a hermit. He never leaves his house and he stays home. Brilliant. He's unfiltered. Zero, zero filter. Yeah, you'll have a glass. Oh, and where does he live? Florida. Will you set me up with him? Of course. Of course. I'm going to be in Miami. I'm actually speaking at the biohacking conference and I'm nervous exactly because I don't like to speak in public. Maybe I can interview him there. Okay, yeah, I know.

I'll connect you guys. Okay, who else have you guys had that you like? Yeah, let me think who else would be like a blast like that. You know, I mean, I love Dr. Gabriel Lyon. She's awesome. We're good friends with her. I'm telling you, you know, we have this thing though too that these, because remember there's three of us and you and I are a lot of like,

and then these guys are a little bit different. So like we also have a lot of like nerdy friends. Yeah, yeah, but I like nerds. Yes, and then these guys are a little bit different. So like we also have a lot of like nerdy friends that are like awkward. I like nerds. Yes. This is jock. Friends. That's why I've been on your show so much.

Ben Greenfield is up there like that. He's like really weird for a lot of people, but we connect with him. Yeah. So, but he was very weird at the beginning and over time he's grown. I even think Max has a little bit of that side to him. Yeah, Max has definitely got that. Like once you get to know, because you've had Max, haven't you? Oh no, Max and I are friends.

Max, I've done his show, he's on my show. I like Max. Max is doing very well right side. Like, why don't you get to know, because you've had Max, haven't you? Oh no, Max and I are friends. Max, I've done his show, he's done my show. I like Max. Max is doing very well right now. Very well. Hey, tell me about, since we're talking about people, let's talk about some people. How is PBD? Patrick David.

Oh yeah, did he ever get back? No. That's why I'm asking. You know what, I got a very funny, I get annoyed by someone. I know, I got a phone call from, I picked up the phone and it said like potential spam on the phone call and I don't know why. I was like, it distracted, shocker. And I up the phone and it said like potential spam on the phone call and I don't know why.

I was like distracted, shocker. And I answered the phone and it was one of his sales guys asking me why I love the Patrick Bet David, oh no, value tame it. And I was like, huh? And I realized they were trying to sell me into a program. They've been ever since we have like talked and connected, like I get hit with them all the time.

Did you get an affiliate code to- They texted me, they called me and stuff like that. And I'm like, I'm not interested in paying for anything. I said, he can come on our show and I love the interview. It's him and Grant Cardona was notorious for that too. Yeah, both those guys. Well, yeah, Grant. Robo called like crazy.

What are they selling? I mean, I said to the guy on the phone, I'm like, how did you get my number? Because I'm like, Patrick's been on my show. And he's like, I'm like, he's been on my podcast. And he was like. Arthur Brooks is another guy. I like him very much.

Did you have him on your show? Of course. Oh, I love him. Yes, he's such a nice guy. He's genuinely one of the best people I've ever met in my entire life. Like the more you get to know him, the more you're in disbelief that someone like that exists

in the world. Well, so funny that you say that I really like him. I texted him yesterday coincidentally, telling him about this woman that I had on my show who wrote this book called Practical Optimism. And he should have her, but he never responded to my text. Yesterday?

Yes. He'll get back to you. Yeah, sometimes it takes him two or three days. Do you know what that guy does? He's like, he's amazing. Oh, he'll meet with like the Dalai Lama. I know. He'll be a real leader.

Yeah. Oh, he's, he'll respond. He takes him a couple of days sometimes. By the way, that was one of the, I really liked that podcast and I really like him as a human being. He's such a nice person. Yeah. Him I really like.

Yeah. He's up there with you. You know what he did? So he, you know, he listened to our show too, but I had some personal. Right, so went to fitness now. Yeah, I had some personal struggles. Him and his wife call in to check in with me and my wife

and talk, and such a nice man, like genuine, just great guy, and it doesn't expect anything in return. Just a, yeah, good person. I love that. I didn't know you had some personal struggles. I guess we're not as close. Everybody has personal struggles. I know, but you can some personal struggles. I guess we're not as close. Everybody has personal struggles.

I know, but you can tell me later. I talk about mine on the show. Well, I guess I didn't listen to that episode. No, no, you're mistaken. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm okay. Yeah, I'm all right. You finished telling me about Patrick but David

because you have... Oh, no, that's basically what happened. So this guy called me and I was like, what the hell is this guy? And like when he found it was on my show, whatever, he was kind of like, you know, felt very uncomfortable. But like, you know, that doesn't sit well. Do you remain in contact with him?

Obviously not. No, obviously not him. I mean, in general, like, with most people? Yeah. Most. I mean, to some degree, like there are people that I've met on the show that I was like, wow, we clicked instantaneously and we became fast friends

and we're friends now. Other people I liked, but we didn't kind of maintain, we like, you know, we'll text very, very once in a while. And there are other people I'll just like never hear from again. And there's those people that we know in common, we won't say that you can tell they're just after just want what they can get from you. That's actually most of these, those are most of the social media people. Yeah. Very transactional. Adam's better with that. Very transactional.

Because Adam's better with that. He doesn't get affected as much and he's more like, well, let's, you know, maybe we could work something out. I hate that. You know what's interesting? It turns me off so hard. You said something like, I love the, that you're 10, you're 10% or 10. The 10% target.

I love that. I absolutely, because. It reminds me of sales, right? Well, I operate from that place with relationships, but I've never put a name to it or called it anything. It's just that most people, but so I had a different way of doing it though. So mine, the way I have done it with our relationships is just, I look for 10, like, like 10, I'm just using yours. I don't actually do 10, but it's like, it ends up being a lot, right? Like of ways that I can add value to people's lives.

That sometimes it's just a text telling you that I'm thinking about you. That could be an email, that could be a DM, that could be like a phone call, that could be like a sending you over or something. It could be anything. It could be I could send you flower, I've sent flower. I mean, sign calendar.

That's right, that's right. But that was a couple of years ago. Can I get flowers again? That was really, I was so. We have a relationship now. Now I just pick up the phone. Exactly. That's a great.

That's part of, that's part of, and that's a lot of stuff that doesn't no one sees on the outside that I think is really important. And it has to come from a place that's genuine and caring, right? So it's not like I have this like system where it's just like, send all these people these superficial. Like the birthday card from the dentist.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it has to be genuine, right? Yeah. And so, yeah, that's something that, and when you do that, like, and people realize, oh, fuck he cares, or like, oh my god, he knew you. Right, exactly. Like, then they, then they open, they bring this wall down,

and now you have this opportunity to build a relationship. And then I also will continue to do things, right? Because I rarely ever, I think maybe once I've might have asked you for some things since we've known each other of all the things that we've done, rarely ever, I think maybe once I've might've asked you for something since we've known each other of all the things that we've done, rarely ever do I ask of something from somebody. And so, and then every once in a while,

there'll be like a small failure. I just had in fact, I just did this when we launched our coaching program. And there's one person who's on my shit list right now and I'm not going to roll them on the bus on the podcast, but listen, so because it's a friend of ours. And I, and this is how I've always operated where I do all this stuff. Like, and then like right before we're getting ready to launch, the guy who we

have that's, that's running this business for us goes, Hey, do you think you could maybe reach out to a couple of big Instagram or like big social presence people in the fitness space that will co-sign for what we did? I said, yeah, I literally set out like 15 text messages to all my Fit and Like people, and literally all of them within 24 hours made me a personal video for all that, except for one. And then that one, I sent like a little reminder to,

hey, whenever you get a chance, just let me know, or hey, I know you're super busy than another one. Then I sent like an email, like, he goes, oh, I'm just super busy, could you just send over my email, I'll do it when I get back. And I'm like, yeah, no problem, send over to you. And then I'm quiet, no singing like that. Then I have Sal, like, say, hey, just do a little nudge you just send over my email, do it when I get back? And I'm like, yeah, no problem. I'll send over to you and then quiet. No singing like that. Then I have Sal, like, say, hey, just do a little nudge.

Just let him know that Adam's upset that you didn't do that for him or like that. And just dropped the ball. Didn't come through on it. And didn't apologize after? He did. I mean, he's a, but I'm like, that's like a thing for me. Like, cause I don't ask.

I don't ever do that stuff. Like that's a very rare. And I'll always do 10 more things for you like that that and when I asked for like a small thing like that I'm gonna ask for A lot of nice things for you that is way beyond what I'm asking right now. I'm asking for a 32nd iPhone the red carpet that would bother me by the way too. That would really bother me. He eventually did, but it was too late. It was too late. Yeah, it doesn't count.

So by the way, you're just, you're saying something earlier and that's basically, I think one of the things that I do just naturally, like if I'm very, I think my, one of the things I am good at is remembering what people's thing is and connecting dots quickly. So I will always proactively try to help somebody without asking, like for them asking me to, for that help.

Like, oh yeah, I remember that that person needed someone like that to do that, and I'll connect people. I'll be a big connector for people. And then, and when it's not reciprocated, it really does bother me. It's not like, because I feel like, like to me, it's like a notebook.

Like why can't like, it takes two seconds to be helpful and to respond if you care about the person. Well, I also feel like you, I do the same that you do, which is again, I didn't have a name to this 10. It's like, it's not like I do it one time and I expect you to think, I do a lot. I do exactly. A bunch of things

that I know that I'm either connecting or helping or doing that. And then the one time that I might ask for the small thing or what that is like, come on, you know, like that's not totally, I totally get it. By the way, that 10% target that we were talking about is a very strong sales training tactic. So like, when I get like seven nos or ten nos before you give up. Right. And that when I get, when I'm doing speaking engagements and when I'm doing them, a lot of times who's calling me are companies to train their sales team. Not just people and like, not like social media mastermind, but it's to teach people to be okay with getting the word no or like hearing the word no and having their brain open up

to like other ways of getting to a yes. You know full circle this conversation, you know, earlier we were talking about the being overly beautiful. That's part of why that becomes such a challenging adulthood for that girl because she hasn't been told no. She's been told yes. She's so beautiful that everybody wants her attention, wants her time, she gets every guy

that she tries to go out with. Like so she's been told yes, yes, yes her whole life. And then she hits the real world and business and stuff like that. It's like business is not like that. Business is brutal. Business doesn't care how cute you are. So you've better-

Sometimes it does. It's the kind of business you're in, right? Only fans, it does matter, I'll tell ya. They actually know. You know what's funny about that? Like the percentage of women that actually make a lot of money is, you know, there's this, there's this,

really? Oh yeah. You know what there is? There's about 90% of them that are barely making a living showing themselves naked because of the one, the one percent that are taking up all the attention. So there's this huge, it's billions of dollars being made and spent in there. And there's a one percent of girls that are mopping up all that. And then there's a 99% of them that are trying to be that, that aren't making but a normal wage. You know why though? I think the one,

the ones who actually make the most money, not just the good looking girls, the people with fetishes who like certain weird shit that they can find on there. But that type of thing is what's happening on all the dating apps. If you do the, if you hear about the research on dating apps, it's the one 1% are getting all of the people and 99% are finding nobody. Because did you hear about the stat about men? Yeah. You're basically invisible unless you're like the top of the, yeah. Six feet.

Did you hear that? Oh no, one of the others actually metrics. There was like metrics. Okay, so like, okay, I don't remember. Like don't quote me on the exact metric, but everybody wants a guy for women who are six feet and above. So guess how many men in the world or the US are six feet or above? Like 5% not even?

I think it comes down to like 14%. But then with that of the six foot men, of the 14%, how many are single? So now that number drops to like 3%, right? Who are making a living. It comes down to like, it becomes down to such a nominal amount. It's all these women seeking out this like very few men. Right, because if you want a guy who's six feet,

who makes six figures, makes the money, and then who's actually attractive at six feet, who makes money and who's also single. I mean, it comes down to such a nominal amount, but those are the... So that person is getting all the action and the swipes are completely invisible, which is why porn is up and less relationships are up and blah, blah, blah. And for women, it comes down to the same thing for different metrics, but this is why people are not having relationships anymore.

And like are single and isolated, which is then causing so much violence and causing like depression and like it goes on and on. It's like a ripple effect. Yeah, it's crazy. We didn't realize that we evolved with natural limitations. And once we removed those limitations, we didn't consider the consequences.

We only thought of the potential positives. So it's like, oh, I have all this, I can meet all these different people and nowhere in history, no time in history, would you have access to that many people at that many time with pictures and information, whatever? Well, isn't this also the evolution of monogamy too? Why we evolved to- That's why successful society-

So the reason why we evolved to be in monogamous relation- You mean to survive all the fitness? Yeah, well, no, because- Because the way the wealthie- Man, the wealthy attractive- Rich and power would take all the women, and then what would they do? It caused an uprising of- Oh, you mean that way, yes.

You have lots of violence. Yeah, lots of violence and trying to overthrow the person who's taking all the women and then what would they do? It caused an uprising of- Oh, you mean that way, yes. You have lots of violence. Yeah, lots of violence and trying to overthrow the person who's taking all the women. I just- So what it would be, so to me, I think a big problem is that people don't really understand their value in the marketplace.

People over index who they should be with based on who they are. And that's another issue that why people are single and not having relationships. If you're a five- The grass is always all the greener, right? No, if and not having relationships. If you're a five. The grass is always all the greener. No, if you're a five, if you're a five, why should, but you want a day to 10, like why, right?

Like, and you won't accept anything below a 10. And so that happens a lot. You over index. This should make an app that tells you what you are. I know, I wish there was actually. Sorry, you can only date these people. You're actually a four, you know, like maybe just accept it. Because I think life and people would be much happier that way.

Versus being by yourself alone and without any companionship, because you don't want to find somebody who's 5'11". And the next thing you know, you're, you know, now you're past your... Now you live with cats, nine cats. And drink wine only. Oh, we just offended the cat lady that was lost. cats, nine cats. And just whine away. Yeah. Just to fit the cat lady that lives with us. Jen, we have so much fun with you.

Yeah. Thank you. I always have so much fun with you. Always fun to talk to you. I mean, if we were on a time constraint with this podcast, I'd say we didn't have going for like four hours. I know how we go for sure. I mean, how long have we been talking, by the way?

Hour and a half. Yeah, 90 minutes. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, I apologize. This is a blast. Everybody's been having a lot of fun. Absolutely. Okay, how long are your podcasts normally? Interviews are typically roughly an hour or an hour

and 15 minutes, but the longer ones is because we had a lot of fun. Okay, good, I'm glad. Okay, good, I would not want to go one minute like below what you normally do. No, no, no, bro. If you're under an hour in an interview, that's what you know.

That's actually how you know when to push out. We try to push you out. Yeah, we kind of have 45 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's bad, okay, good, okay, good. So, yeah, yeah. That's bad. OK, good. OK, good. So I'll always remember that now. 61 minutes minimum.

Minimum. OK. 6 foot tall minimum. OK. Oh, yeah, exactly. 6 foot, exactly. We're doing ours next, right? We are, Jen.

So we'll have fun. It's exciting. Everybody, no, I'm not going to tell them. You tell them about the book. About your book, Bigger, Better, Bolder, Jennifer Cohen. Check out her book. Check out her podcast. Everything.

Everything you do is awesome. Thank you so much, you guys. Thank you for having me again. I'll be back in the next quarter. Yes, deal. How you like to share, by the way. I love it. I love it.

There's a lot of power in that. I don't think you're getting it back by now. Oh no, you said we'd switch for yours. I know, I know. You said that. All right. Damn. All right, thanks, Jen.

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