Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2325: Why Marriages Fail & What to Do About It With Dr. John Delony

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

The most challenging calls he has received. (1:24) The shift in divorce statistics. (6:29) Why men need work, family, and a higher purpose. (9:59) You can’t do anything hard based on feel. (15:43) The new rules for a successful marriage. (17:55) The power in celebrating wins and being accountable. (20:04) Lessons in communicating with the opposite sex. (26:41) Vulnerability is an act of courage. (35:51) Do people have a distorted view of divorce? (37:53) Love is a choice. (40:30) The importance of having a set of family values. (42:46) The value of having good friends outside your marriage. (48:58) Practices of successful families. (50:14) Is it necessary for your partner to have things in common with you? (51:43) How to navigate social media with your kids as a parent. (53:00) The impact of pornography on the younger generation and society. (1:07:29) Small practices that go a long way in a successful marriage. (1:11:49) Related Links/Products Mentioned Listen to the Dr. John Delony Show wherever you get your podcasts or click the link here Mind Pump FREE Personal Trainer Course April Promotion: MAPS Anywhere | MAPS HIIT 50% off! ** Code APRIL50 at checkout ** Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do about It – Book by Richard Reeves Dan Bilzerian Says Monogamy is Better Than Sleeping with Thousands of Women The One Minute Manager The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness – Book by Jonathan Haidt Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Dr. John Delony (@johndelony) Instagram Dan Bilzerian (@danbilzerian) Instagram Layne Norton, Ph.D. (@biolayne) Instagram Dr. Becky Campbell (@drbeckycampbell) Instagram Jonathan Haidt (@jonathanhaidt) Instagram Shawn Ryan Show (@shawnryanshow) Instagram Esther Perel (@estherperelofficial) Instagram Jordan B. Peterson (@JordanBPeterson) X Brené Brown (@brenebrown) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts Sal DiStefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness health and entertainment podcast. This is mind pump. In today's episode we had Dr. John Deloney on the show. He's the host of the very popular podcast, The Dr. John Deloney Show. He's incredible. This guy is a wealth of knowledge. In today's episode, we talk about marriage, relationships, husbands and wives, how you can make your relationship better. You're gonna want to listen to this episode. By the way, you can find him, his show, and more at johndelony.com forward slash mind pump so it's johndelony.com forward slash

mind pump one more thing um trainers and coaches if you want to become more successful you want to build a big business you want to get your clients better results go to mind pump trainer course.com there we have some free information for you we'll teach you to close deals we'll teach you how to project your sales, and more. It's at mindpumptrainercourse.com. Also, we only have two days left for this month's program sale. Maps Anywhere and Maps Hit, both 50% off.

You can find them both at mapsfitnessproducts.com. Just use the code April 50 for that discount. All right, here comes the show. John, welcome back to the show, my friend. Good to see you guys. One of our favorite people. Always. Always good to see you. I wanted to, we wanted to talk to you today

about marriage and stuff like it. Before we go though, I want to ask you just a question because I've seen some of your clips on YouTube and some of the questions that you answer, some of the callers that call in, I'm like, I can't believe these people are calling in. I can't believe you're helping them. They're insane. Can you recall some of the callers that call in, I'm like, I can't believe these people are calling in. I can't believe you're helping them. They're insane.

Can you recall some of the most challenging ones that have come in? I heard one the other day that just made me laugh. What was it? It was bad, man. It was a dude that called in that said he thought his friend was potentially a pedophile. Oh yeah. Holy cow.

That's gonna throw you off your rock. Yeah, dude. This is a super heavy topic. How do you handle some of the stuff you're getting on these calls? I mean, I guess the disturbing part is that often, that's not the first time I've heard that, or I've been asked that question.

That's crazy. Working with college students for so long, for so many years, they'd come sit down and be like, hey, man, I just stumbled on this in my roommate's computer, and I love this guy, and I don't know what to do. Right. And an 18 year old isn't understanding, well, that's a federal crime. And there's a kid, like they don't have that concept.

They just don't want to, like, they still want to be a bro. Right. And so it always comes from a good place. And as a teacher, you're teaching them, no, this is how you handle that hard stuff, it just pops up. Wow. So on the show too, what, what about when you have to tell people like, yeah, you probably should leave your husband or your wife. Like that's gotta be so.

Yeah. I see. So, um, you should go get divorced. Um, you should file for bankruptcy. A couple of these things that I know is going to ripple through your life for the rest of your life. I won't do that. Okay. And often I'll tell people, I'm not going to let you, when this gets hard and ugly and you're sobbing in the middle of the night You're splitting your time up with your kid. You're doing all that. I'm not gonna let you blame me Mm-hmm. You have to make that decision. So how do you balance that? That's right

If you're if you're hearing like and you're going in your head going like they probably need to leave this person But I know better than to give that advice if it's violence or if someone's unsafe. I'll say get out now. Sure Okay, so if it's that like, no question, but if there is even a chance that this person could save their marriage, even though you're probably going, there's a 98% chance. I think people bail way too quick. Way, way. Do you really? I do. I do. So, so why do you think that is? I think it's what you're talking about before we're just hanging out. I think I think it's what we were talking about before we were just hanging out. I think we've been raised on this idea that what we feel is the most important metric in our life.

And even going back to the 80s, there was some wisdom about marriage. Don't fight in front of the kids. You're going to freak your kids out. You're going to scare them. And that actually makes sense. I get that. But it was wrong because what it did was they said, go fight in your bedroom and then come out and, and, and provide your kids with the United Front.

What we did accidentally was we robbed kids of seeing two people who love each other, really disagree and then sell it together. Yeah. And then they, they're hugging two weeks later. Right. And so kids got to see, Oh, mom and dad fight and they love each other. That's a, that's a normal part of any relationship. Y'all fight.

I mean, and so now your first fight, you're like, oh, I guess this is over. I'm out. Right. Or when marriage gets hard, it gets boring. Right. We don't talk about that marriage gets boring. It's boring sometimes, man. And we're like, oh, it needs to be more this or this or this.

And if I feel bored, or if I feel tired, then you hear that phrase. It just ran its course. And I just think that's bull crap, dude. Y'all quit. It's fine. If I quit, but it doesn't just stop. Right? So if I'm hearing this correctly, it's

like it's the expectations that we go into the marriage is where we're almost at. That's probably a good way to put it, yeah. I think we're too sensitive in the, you know, like one of the critiques of the current stock market is that instead of looking for trends, everyone is chasing this thing up and down

every single day and no one's looking at the macro picture. I think marriage is the same. Like we expect every sexual encounter to be like the Super Bowl, right? And they're not, right? You have like, ah, right? Or funny or like just regular, boring, married sex. And then it's too easy to be like, ah man, the spark's gone. No, it's not.

It's a Tuesday, dude. And you just, someone clean up, throw up and you got to get up early tomorrow. It's Tuesday. Y'all were just connecting, having a good time. So I think we, we follow these little micro trends so much, and then we just, we call it. And we all had that friend, again, I'm just thinking this off top of my head, guys. We all had that girlfriend in high school,

and I wonder what happened to so-and-so. Grass is greener. Now I can find out. Sure. Now I can contact her. Hey, what's up? Right? You used to have to go find a phone book,

which for the youngsters out there, what's up? Right? You see you have to go find a phone book which for the youngsters out there Where's the where's the central camera? Yeah, they used to print the internet out All right, and you would have to thumb through it and they call their dad right whatever and get her like No, you're like doing all that not if you're married you got three kids You're just driving like I wonder what happened to so and so well now I can DM her and see how it's going And so I think the avenues for alternatives is so great. It's just tough, man. Is it true that women file for divorce at a much higher rate than men do?

Like it's the, it's the wives. As, um, as the economic differences balance out culturally. Yes. What do you mean by that? So in, in, in, I'll say countries, that's an easier way. In countries where there is, women have greater economic opportunities. Okay. As soon as they're able to provide for themselves, they're not putting up with an abusive guy,

a bulldog, like an idiot. They can leave. Okay. In places where they can't, they're stuck, they're trapped. Okay. And so yeah, in what we would call more egalitarian cultures, absolutely they leave. So, and the reason is because they can? They can.

Okay. Because they can. Okay. Yeah. So the conversation that I'm hearing among researchers is the world shifted and two lies have been told. One lie is to women is that you're all you need. You don't need anybody else in your life.

You can do all this by yourself. And so we're all, y'all experienced this in your line of work. Women are being buried by this lie that you can have it all, do it all, all by yourself. Right? On the other side, men are being told, if we could just get back to it.

Right? And so there's no like, hey, you need to learn some new skills, if we could just get back to it. And so there's no like, hey, you need to learn some new skills, man. And we don't have that. And so there's just this melting. How do you also balance that conversation of like, we as a society, especially in the United States, we have evolved and kind of changed and shifted

to where a lot of times some women are making as much or more than their partner, some roles in the household are shifting, like, so we're moving away from kind of these old traditional values. How do you have that conversation when you get phone calls or people that are, and you can kind of see that this is what we, here's the hurdle hurdle. Like how do you talk to somebody without offending them that maybe these things that they're driving towards is what's destroying their marriage because of the way society is, is speaking to men and women. Like, yeah, I, I, I try to make it not so sensational. Like I look at it as less, I can't handle the macro value trends.

That's, that's beyond my pay grade. I look at it as less, I can't handle the macro value trends. That's beyond my pay grade. What I can tell somebody is, hey man, you're right. Your dad and your granddad, they worked all day and your grandma and your great grandma stayed at home. Your mom stayed at home and took care of domestic stuff. Well now your wife's an attorney. She makes six figures and you don't.

So you can sit at home and complain about she's not working on, or y'all can reevaluate what needs to happen in your home. And so I look at it more as a tools issue, as a skills issue, not as a big moral crisis. Do you think though that we're wired biologically to gravitate to one more than the other and that sometimes that is an inner struggle that's happening where it's like, I'm that guy. I'm not making as much. My wife is making so much. There's data that shows that men as women generally want to date someone that earns as much or more and men typically educated as much or more. Yeah.

And men typically want to date someone who earns as much or less. I just read that this morning, Richard Reeves book of boys and men it's a masterpiece if you've read it. Yeah so like women who start to climb the ladder of pay start their dating pool shrinks and shrinks and shrinks right because of that so that's it that seems to be biological. Well possibly. Maybe. I mean I mean possibly. I'm more concerned when it comes to men is I don't know if it's biological, if it's teological, who knows what it is. Men need, and this isn't a religious statement, this is just the psychology data.

Men need work, men need a family, and men need some sort of higher purpose religion, some sort of faith practice that grounds them. And if we look over the last 25 to 50 years, we've just melted off, we've just pulled all three of those strings. And so men are completely untethered. And I was just drawing a map out and the airplane over, man, if you take away faith and then what's

the larger thing I'm a part of? Oh, politics, that's what it is now. And if you pull, if you take away, um, family, what's, what am I a part of now? I think it was three to one men die of opioid, right? And opiates are the chemical that pretends to be the love chemical in the human body, right?

And then the purpose, they're not like, we don't talk about technology is just taking jobs, man. Just take a job, taking jobs, taking jobs. And so you got guys who are, aren't working, what are they going to do? They're going to go, hey, they're going to fight. Because that's where they've got a purpose, right? And that's why you look at the political parties. Nobody's offering a vision other than, well, burn his down.

Yeah, this guy sucks. It's like, our plan is, that guy sucks, right? And so that's become the circle. And so I can't think of a more important thing to do than to figure out, okay, the rules of marriage have changed. Let's figure that out, because it's still important, it's still important. And if I'm talking to a young man, how do you become,

if that's the case, then how do we educate you? How do we teach you how to go some job skills where you can go work? How do you learn a work ethic, right? How do you go learn these things instead of just opting out of the game completely? I gotta make you datable, right? I gotta make you maryable.

There's some wisdom there because, you know, discipline is so important for young, I think it's important for everybody, it's so important for young men because we don't have, we don't have a biological clock that naturally kind of tells us, Hey, you better get your shit together. We don't, you know, we can disconnect from, you know, partners easier, I guess, biologically than

women can. Um, we can, we can be very single-minded. So without that discipline and that focus, you're just a boy. You're just a kid forever playing video games and buying fast cars and just hooking up with wherever. Um, so that makes a boy. You're just a kid forever. Playing video games and buying fast cars and just hooking up with wherever. Um, so that makes a lot of sense. You know what you're saying? Well, in the, that's the ironic thing is the data says married men have way

more sex than, right? And yet there's this like super flex, like bro, like maybe, probably not. Unless you're Dan Bilzerian. Probably not. Even though him, but just he came out and said he's all for monogamy. He was like, that did not make me happy. Did you hear that? No. I mean, I had an interview recently and they talked to, he talked about, like he actually broke down some stats, like meaning that, you know, many times he slept with seven to nine women in a day and like,

like just hundreds and hundreds of women a year. And so that, you know, what he has found that like, who is this Doug? Doug Bilzerian, Dan Bilzerian is, don't you? I don't know. That dude. He's got like, I don't know, 10, 20 million followers. And he's like, he's a poker player guy beer jacked. And he's always got a boat. 12 naked chicks. And it's like every teenage,

every teenage boy you've ever talked to follows that guy. He's like an American, uh, Andrew Tate. Yes. Okay. Shoots guns or just blows up to a slim gym. All right. All right. Yeah. I mean, you can't help but watch his circle back and he's like, yeah, I mean, he's been, he's been projecting this kind of, you can't help but watch his circle back and he's like, yeah, I mean, he's been, he's been projecting this kind of, you know, playboy image for the last, I don't know how many years now, for as long as we've been around. I feel like it's been that long. And he's recently came out and said that, yeah.

Do you think we've oversold or undersold monogamy and oversold this? Like it's terrible and you want to be with as many people as possible. And that's the best way to be type of deal. I mean, yeah. And in fact, I was talking to somebody recently and I just the data on we used to be like run around and have multiple part. I don't think that's accurate. I don't think that anthropological data is accurate. Maybe in certain cultures in certain places it's fine. But I don't think broadly speaking that was accurate. And so

in certain places, fine. But I don't think broadly speaking that was accurate. And so, yeah, I think we, here's the analogy I like to use. We just went in, like downtown Nashville has rolled over the last 10 years. Like they take these old houses, just knock them down and build two tall and skinnies right in the, I'm sure y'all's place is the same. And I watched them walk in and just burn down grandma's house just cause it was old.

Just cause it was old. And they put these two new houses in, they throw them up, the foundation's crack in two years cause they don't let them cure. They throw them up and they sell the square footage, they flip the house and they're gone. And it's like, no, there was, that house was built right. That house would have been here for another a hundred years. It would have been here for another 200 years. And so I think the idea that we're just trying to hack everything and like, what's the, sometimes slowing down and doing things like the way our grandparents

did it, our great grandparents did it, or people have been doing it for 2000 years. They may have been onto something, right? Because that kept society tethered together. That kept families together. More importantly, that Reeves talks about is these kids, man, these kids, I think we've undersold the impact divorce has on kids. It's so ubiquitous. Everyone's getting divorced.

It's so common that it's a trauma for children, right? And we can say, no, no, it is, it is, it's tough. Even the best divorce. Even the best divorce. A kid's wondering, what did I do? What happened? Do you think the two, like, in terms of the breakdown of how we view marriage in the beginning, it's, it's, it's this big overcorrection now from maybe, you know,

back in the day it was so pushed to get married so early, so young, like, immediately that was like your, your option. And then a lot of people felt trapped in that situation. They didn't really spend their time waiting for the right person and to, you know, take it as seriously as they should have in terms of it being a lifetime commitment and this being there's no way out of this. Yeah, I think no fault divorce accelerated a lot of that. You just, you had like two important things in that question that are actually separate. My grandmother and my granddad, I think they were married for 73 years before my granddad died. And I remember my grandmother, she's a riot dude.

And she was like, he couldn't have waited another 18 months. We get 75. I mean, she's awesome. She died shortly after, right? And I remember a look she had in her eyes when she said this, these words, I don't know what to do. And I remember thinking look she had in her eyes when she said these words, I don't know what to do. And I remember thinking, oh, you lost like a leg and a lung, right? When I think of 73 years, they were soul mates. When they were right before the World War II and they got married, dude, my granddad, before he got shipped off, they got married.

They had four kids. They raised them through World War II, Vietnam, all the ups and downs, all the, then they were so they became soulmates. And now we try to reverse engineer that with, let's be soulmates first and then try to do 73 years. And so we try to do soulmates by how does it feel and you can't, you have to do it based on what you said till I'm gonna die with you. And that means we gotta figure it out. You can't do anything hard just based off feel. Imagine

trying to raise your kids based off of feel. Imagine trying to get in shape. Imagine trying to, like, as soon as I went to therapy and sat with a trauma therapist and it got hard, I'm like, I'm good, man. I'm out because it hurts. Nothing good, nothing good is done with, is not done without pain, without some sort of discomfort. This is the worst. And in marriage, it can be a year. It could be two years. It could be a long time, right?

Now, what do you think about the data that says that, and maybe I'm wrong, that women are more likely to, just because of the way they're wired, they're more likely to pick up on, oh, this isn't going right. Let's talk this out. This may be an issue. We need to kind of sift through this. Let's figure this out. And men are far more likely to avoid, avoid, nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong. And then that causing the issues later on where,

cause you hear the stories where the guy's like, I don't know what happened. All of a sudden she's just like, I can't be with you anymore. And she's like, I've been telling you for 10 years. Right. I do think marriages have a, a, that marriage relationship, I think all relationships, work relationships, friend relationships, but marriage relationships, um, they, yeah, we're not very clear with each other. Right. I do think I could see an evolutionary psychology. I can, I can see why a woman would have to be more attuned to social cues. Cause. Well, they care for a baby and infant.

It's got to be safe. It's unsafe. Right. Um, and I can also, like, like the stereotypical Neanderthal, just like, I'm going to go to work. Right. I, it goes back to the new rules. Like it, you can't be a guy, I just go to work

and do it. You have to learn a new set of skills, which is I've got to learn how to connect with this person who is a co-earner, who's a coworker in this home, who has co-standing. It used to just my mom, we may have talked about this before. My mom, this is not long, dude. My mom was not, when she got married to my dad in 1970 was not allowed to get a checking account or sign a mortgage.

This isn't a long time ago. And so my mom married a homicide detective in the state, in Houston, a Texas homicide detective whose wife's not allowed to get her own checking account. And now 50 something years later, right? My mom's got a PhD and she's a professor and she can do whatever she can. She can leave my dad today for no reason, go buy a house, right? My mom's got a PhD and she's a professor and she can do whatever she can. She can leave my dad today for no reason, go buy a house, right? She can do whatever she wants. And to travel that arc, man, that's pretty impressive, right? But it's just different.

And so we have to learn new rules. I got to learn how to speak a different language. I got to learn how to communicate. I got to learn how to do things that are unnatural to me. That's a part of being in a relationship man One of the biggest changes I think I'm seeing is how men view fatherhood I know when I was a kid and maybe before that a dad was kind of Play with you and be authoritative and that was it like if you were lucky you got a dad that played with you on the weekend and Give you some structure You're seeing a lot more dads be much more involved and child-rearing and caring about how their kids is this are you seeing a lot more dads be much more involved in child rearing and caring about other kids.

Are you seeing a lot of this now? I would imagine that's part of what he's saying of the co-parenting and now having to learn that skill. But the data says that's generally reserved for, and this is general, there's going to be a lot of guys in the comments who are like, no, I honor that. But that's usually higher income households is a bachelor degree or higher co-earner ish, right? Husband and wife are making about the same. And then why now I've, cause I've got time and I got resources.

I'm not working seven days a week in the shop, putting on front ends, right. And I get home and I'm just kaput. There are men who are amazing men who get off that shift and they do go to little league and they do go like that's, that's awesome, right? Um, they're just more rare. I totally subscribed to that. I mean, that was my motivation of waiting so long is because I can't imagine trying to be a dad in my 25 because I know what I

was doing work wise. I was working six days a week, 10, 12 hour days. I strung 170 days with no days off before. Like, there's no way I would be the same dad I am today. So that makes a lot of sense. I have four kids, but two is a big age gap between the two of them. And my first two, I worked like that. The second two, it's very different.

And the relationship I have with my little ones is, it almost makes me feel guilty. Oftentimes it does. Because you don't know your kids just by playing with them Sometimes you actually know them through like changing their diapers feeding them wake up in the middle night with them that kind of stuff I don't know that I had no idea I don't know what I was missing Well, and and I think it goes back to we're talking about, you know, sex has to be the Super Bowl every night or other

So there's something wrong with our relationship Similar I think we sit down, and dads especially, we can be pretty bad about, like, every moment has to be like this, this teaching, this adventure, right? Like, everything has to be a lesson. My wife, she's real wise, she, I was doing something, my daughter came in and my son was doing something, and she goes, what if you just tried being likable?

And I was like, what are you talking about? And she goes, hey, every time our son walks in the room, he's an amazing kid. I'm like, hey, pull your shorts down. Why you got your shoes like that? Tuck your shirt in. And she goes, you would not want to be with any dude who talked to you like that.

My daughter comes in, I'm like, why are you wearing that? Forget your backpack, don't forget your. And so literally I was like, to roll my eyes, I your backpack, don't forget you. And so literally I was like to roll my eyes and like, I just stopped and it's amazing. And what I'm finding is it's the little things. It's the right before school. It's the, uh, we go, my son and I eat at Waffle House every Tuesday morning. It's not great for my body. It's not good, but we go,

it's the only little diner in my little town I live in, the rural outside of Nashville. We go every Tuesday and it's boring. Don't talk about anything. Don't talk about anything. Don't talk about anything. And then, hey, dad, right? And so it's just showing up and it's just showing up.

And Mary just like, dad, it's just boring. It's date night, boring date night, boring date night, boring date night. You gonna try something, right? That's what happens. You know, that, that advice reminds me of advice that I learned in business from a book called one minute manager. And I feel like this applies in relationships and raising kids is you think as a

dad, you, you, all, you set all the boundaries and the rules and you punish when they're wrong. This is not, and in the book, it's like the same thing, right? It's talking about like leaderships. We get into management. Your job is to correct your employee when they're wrong, this and that. And in the book, it's like the same thing, right? It's talking about like leaderships. When you get into management, your job is to correct your employee when they do something wrong. And this book flipped that whole theory on its head and it said, no, instead, every time you see your employee,

look for something to compliment them on or tell them what they're doing a good job. And then that opens the door for those people. And I remember when I applied that to my staff, how blown away I was because all I said, okay, I'm gonna stop telling them what they're doing wrong. I'm going to a hundred percent focus on all the things they do right, what I love about them.

And then all of a sudden they started coming to me with their problems and what they were doing wrong. They'd come and just admit like, Adam, I fucked up yesterday on this and that. And then it opened the door for me to correct coach and teach. And it's like, I feel like that same kind of philosophy applies in your household with your partnership and your kids is like, instead of looking for all the things they're always doing wrong, it's like, as a father, how can I look at all the things my son is doing well and pointed out and celebrate it and make him feel that way?

Then he feels comfortable when he's challenged or he fucks up to come to me. And same with your wife, right? Same with your husband, like same, what if I spent all the time looking for what they're doing awesome instead of looking for all the like, Hey man, what about this? What about it? It's a, it's a powerful, it's super powerful. And you have to be consistent with it though. It's not like one of those things that you could say like, Oh,

I'll try and compliment them. And then you expect something in return. It's like, I remember I set a goal of like, okay, I'm going to commit to this for like three months of just consistency. I'm not going to break. I'm not going to correct or discipline. I'm just going to be positive, positive, positive, everything. And it blew my mind and it forever set and changed the way I managed and led a staff. And it was like, what a powerful, powerful thing I learned with

that. And I feel it applies in relationships. Well, it's not, it's not anti-accountability either, right? It actually gives me credibility when I do have to hold my 14 year old accountable. I've built such a powerful relational foundation with him that when I say you can't do that in this house, right? That's not who the Delonis are. He knows I'm not just lobbing another, here comes another grenade from dad, right? Right.

It is. Now this one's for real. And I told him, every time you walk out, you've got your shirt on backwards. Every day I'm telling you, put your shirt on. Like, middle school is different, man. Middle school now they're just like, that's just, that's just Sal being Sal.

Yeah. When I was a kid, it was brutal, man. And I told them, I said, I'm turning you over to the middle school wolves, man. Like, I'm not going to say another thing about your shirt or your pants being up like rock and roll, brother. You're my son. I don't know. Let them have you.

And of course they don't anymore. They're like, Oh, that's just, that's unique him or whatever the thing is. But like, I'm, it was an ego thing for me. Right? And I'm not, I'm not going to lose my relationship with my son over something stupid like I went through the same thing with my son's haircut. It just bothered me cause it's like, dude, you have a mullet. Why is nobody hasting you about this? You know, it's like fully accepted. Yeah. But that's again, it's just me trying to infuse

what I want in his direction. And it's like, look, he's got to live his own life, figure it all out himself, you know, have his own pure group that sort of checks each other. Yeah, it's not a big deal at all. Yeah, it's just not. Yeah, it's not that big of a deal. Yeah, folks are on the wrong thing.

What about the communication challenges? You always hear, you know, we just don't communicate or they need to communicate better, right? Cause women and men and women tend to have their own styles of communication. What are, what are some things that men and women can learn about communicating with the opposite sex so they can kind of be understood?

I think the, there's a psychiatrist named William Glasser. He passed away in the nineties and he, some of his stuff hasn't aged well, but a couple of us, a lot of his stuff has aged amazing. And he said this one for, he used to laugh at the idea of marriage therapy. He said, I can fix any couple in two sessions, right? And you're like, okay, right. Whatever. And he said, we think in pictures and we speak in words. And he said,

when you align the pictures, everything's fine. And I was like, that's lame. And so, like, here was the sentiment. It's taught me if we've had this conversation before. But he said, or this is my analogy. My wife comes to me on like a Monday and she's like, this Friday, you know what I mean? hottest date ever. Get ready.

She just walks away. Kind of flirty walks away. Dude, I'm like, yes, right? That's what's up. And by the end of that day, I'm like, man, I wonder what I'm going to be wearing for how long? And then by Tuesday, I'm like, how are we going to get a helicopter to land here? What hotel are we going to end up at? Who's going to take the kids? Who cares? It'll be fine, right? And then Friday rolls around, I get off of work, I shower again, I put on something real nice, and I come out of the bedroom,

and she's sitting there in running shorts and a t-shirt, and she's like, what are you doing? I'm like, what are you doing? And it's like, you said this is a hot date, and she's like, yeah, dude, Taco Barn has burritos, two for a dollar, and we're gonna go get off the rails tonight, we're gonna eat, and she's like, I, dude, taco barn has burritos, two for a dollar. And we're going to go get off the rails tonight. We're going to eat.

And she's like, I'm gonna have gas too. So like, right. So when she said the word date, I had a picture and she had a picture. I love burrito night, man. I love getting off the rails with good Mexican food. And she likes good, like romantic rendezvous getting away for a weekend, but we just talked past each other. And so now I'm mad.

She's mad that I'm mad, right? And that happens with something as simple as, hey, tonight, when you get home, I'm going to need a break. All right, my picture for that is, and this is going to make me sound like a sexist idiot, and I don't mean to be, but, all right, cool. After the kids are in bed, after, you know, after we've all cleaned up dinner, after you've made to be, but, um, all right, cool. After the kids are in bed, after, you know, after we've all cleaned up dinner, after you've made the meal, like after we're all ready to rock and roll for the night, I won't bother you.

And for her, I need, I needed some time the night is the moment you walk in that door, I'm walking out that door and I may not come back, right? I'm going to be gone for a minute. And so it's simply saying, uh, the sentence that changed my marriage when my wife and I sat across the table, this several years ago and like no drama and I'm drama, big drama, no drama, no whining, no compl- like, are we going to stay married? Cause this is wrong. This can't happen. This is done.

We can't keep being married like we have been. Are we going to keep doing this? Cause if we are, it has to all be different now. And both of us agreed up, I'm all in, I'm all in. And it started with the, the, the, the way back was, what is your picture of today? Look like that was it. What's your picture of tonight? Look like, Hey, I'm going, we're going to your mom's house tonight.

What's your picture of that? Cause mine is I'm going to get there and I'm going to go out back and I'm going to disappear and hers is like, no, no, no, you're going to sit here and we're going to talk and we're going to have family time. Okay. Now that I got your picture, I can do that all day long. It's when I'm out there and she's resenting that I'm not in here and then I get in

and I can feel her mad and I resent that she's mad. What's your picture of tonight look like? That question was one of just a couple of questions that brought us all the way back. I think that is such a powerful thing to say. It resonates so much with me because when I think back to the last like kind of big fight that Katrina and I had, it was Christmas.

And I had an expectation, this is my son's fourth Christmas on how I wanted to look. And I didn't communicate that, you know? I just, I expected her. Read your mind. To read my mind in a sense, right? Or to think the same way, like, this is your son's fourth Christmas,

wouldn't you want to do these things? Oh, and don't? You don't even love him? Do you even love me? Like, why are you... It doesn't even... Now I don't feel good. Totally. Oh, you chose your family over me and us. Oh yeah, it was all that. Well, and most guys would take it one step further and say, I just want this fourth Christmas to be awesome. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Like when I tell my... I remember one time I told my son, he was like seven and I, and he was talking and I had some guys over and I was trying to be cool. And he was talking and I looked at him and said, Hey, will you just be cool? And then I turned and I remember I just started laughing and I was like,

like a seven year old knows what will you just be cool means to a 40 year old. Right? He didn't know what that means. And so I can then turn and say, Hey, can you just like, when we're talking, kids don't talk when the adults are talking, what your turn. and then just, and you could pop in, right? It's just explaining. Now a lot of the, some people listening, some people might be like, okay, that sounds great, but you know, when we talk to each other, my husband, he's had trauma as a kid and he gets triggered when I say certain things or my wife, she's got certain issues and you know, people say,

Hey, I need to cool off. Let me leave for a second. But that triggers her abandonment issues or whatever. How do you see through that? So you can kind of read the subtitles where you can kind of see, okay, I see what's going on. I understand what the situation is. And let me, let me be here for you. I was going to speak real directly to that. Cool. I got some black holes in my past, ugly stuff.

And I looked at my wife and I said, I will stand by you until death do us part. And when I did that in front of God, in front of our family, in front of our friends, in front of her, that meant I have to know in front of our friends, in front of her. That meant I have to know, I have to do the work to know when I'm getting triggered on something and it's my responsibility, not hers, it's my responsibility to take active control of getting set off, of speaking up and saying, I need five minutes, I'll be right back. Or whenever somebody says I need a break

The important part of a break which are super important. I still take breaks down. My wife still takes breaks now, right? Is I'll be back in 30 minutes or the other night. I was getting heated on something We were talking way past each other and I said I have to be done with this conversation tonight We will start it again tomorrow morning, right? And so I capped it I put a boundary on it it. That way she's like, he just runs away from, but dude, that's my job. If you have trauma in your history, it is not your partner's job to fix that and solve that because they can't. And it's an act of avoidance, man, to be like, well, she just keeps triggering me. She says it. I actually think a lot of that is solved still by what you just said before that though. If you do a good job of heading into a situation, because going back to the story I was sharing

with the issue that Katrina and I had, a lot of that has to do with my own expectations, my own trauma, my own way I was raised the family and the way she was and we don't align. When we look back at that big blow up, we actually both agree that there's the way we handled the fight. I wouldn't change a thing in either what she, she agrees, but we would have changed was the conversation before we both said that I wish we would have talked about this. Cause I wish I knew that's what you expected.

And I wish I knew that's what you wanted to do. And we could have either found somewhere in the middle or what she said, she's like, I totally would have done that with you if I would have known. So if you would like, so if you're going into a situation where you know your partner does, is going to, I totally would have done that with you if I would have known. So if you would, like, so if you're going into a situation where you know your partner is gonna,

you're different in it, right? Like family events, I know, Sal, you can relate to this because just cause like me with this, right? So you go into that event, like something I can practice and be better about is just having that conversation before we head over there. Hey, what's your expectations today when we go to your family's house?

Because this is how I think it's gonna play out or I would like it to play out. What do you think? And that would totally solve. Cause even if it does happen because of our trauma, our issues, we'd already communicated our expectations. So to get back to home base really quick or handle that, I find that it would just diffuse that.

We have the same picture in our mind. Yes. Right. And also what you're talking about is just throw your ego out the window. When you go to her parents' house, that's her, it's her event. You're, you are a windowed resting. This one's not about you, dude. And so if you sit down, if Sal sits down at his big Italian dinner, like with his family and everyone's, I'm just totally stereotyped. It's loud. Marlon Brando comes out. He's like, hey, it's loud, it's creamy, drinks are flowing.

That's olive oil. Yeah, olive oil and pasta. But I would suggest that your wife is, maybe by this point, she's like a part of that. But it's your event. And she's there to be supportive of that event, and vice versa, right? And so if I go to my in-laws house with my wife and they

have some of their own family traditions and history they've done forever, I should have made that about me. I can't even like it. Shut up. Go, go and say, what's your picture of this for me? How can I be a part? Like, and be cool if you just sat in there and were quiet. Done.

Right. It'd be cool if you took my dad and y'all went, done. My dad's gonna ask you to go to the hardware store. Will you just go? Just go, man. What you said about triggers is accurate, but it's way harder than that, right? Because a trigger stays with you.

It's a part, it's a reaction that you're unable to even process until it happens. How did your wife work with you through that? Because I'm sure it wasn't like just snap, done, triggers are gone, I can totally handle this. Well, she had her own, but I mean it... Like what's the process look like to work through that? Because it doesn't happen overnight.

No, somebody has to have the courage. So it shifts from, the conversation shifts from, as you become more vulnerable with each other, and I still, I hate that word, but it's the only one I got. And I think that vulnerability is an act of courage and bravery, not an act of cowardice. It's tough to look at somebody and say, this is all of me. Do you still love me? That's scary, man, right? And so it starts with what's your picture of this.

And then as you become braver and your relationship gets tighter, it becomes, here's my picture of this. here's what I'm picturing and I'm gonna put on the table because you can reject that but I put on the table and that's scary to do that and so it takes somebody to say I don't know what happened 20 years ago 30 years ago you cannot talk to me like that I'm not gonna be at this table when you act like X. If you walk away every time we have a hard conversation, we're never going to solve this problem. I'm asking you to stay at the table with me this time. And then if I can't, that's my job to go solve

that because I have to be able to sit at the table, right? I have to be able to sit here. And so that's my job. But somebody has to have the courage to put what they want or what they need on the table. And that's tough. Most people, the joke on my show all the time is, like, y'all made humans together, right? You were in the delivery room. That's a lot.

What do you mean you won't tell? You don't know how to tell her you don't want to go to Christmas at her mom's house. It's like, well, I don't know. Like, bro, y'all made a human. You're past that now. Have that conversation. And so I think it's just, it's about, well, I don't know, man. Like, bro, y'all made a human. You're past that now. Have that conversation.

And so I think it's just, it's about courage and you're gonna get rejected. It's gonna be awkward and you're gonna feel yourself getting mad. And that's part of the work you gotta do, man. For people listening who are going through challenging times with their marriage, what percentage would you say of successful marriages hit those points

where they thought they were gonna break? 100. So it's so common. it's so common that successful marriages almost don't make it. I don't know that they almost don't make it, but a hundred percent of the time it's a car wreck. Always. Right? A hundred percent of the time somebody at work, when you're feeling low or you're in the routine or you got two kids and one's in diapers and one is just learning to walk

and they're staring at you while you're trying to go to the bathroom, right? It's all like, it's exhausting and you're getting takeout every night. And then you come to the office and she thinks your jokes are hilarious. And then you text her another joke. Like that's, that happens.

Right. Or I just don't feel it anymore, or I'm just a girl. That's life, right? I don't know any relationship doesn't run into something like that. I thought this was gonna look different. I didn't wanna be married to you, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

The choice is, are we gonna sit in this thing and decide, let's figure this out and solve this problem? Or are we gonna quit, are we going to sit in this thing and decide, let's figure this out and solve this problem? Or are we going to quit? Are we going to walk away? Do you think people have a distorted view of divorce in the sense that it's easier than marriage? Like, oh, divorce with kids? Yeah, it's easier than this marriage.

Man, that's a great question. I think that's a complicated answer because I think there are people in abusive situations that they find peace. They finally have peace. Um, I think people are under represent the trauma and I don't mean, I don't use that word, just throwing it around. I think it's hard.

Right. Cause y'all had, y'all had a picture, y'all had plans, right? And those plans are over. I thought we were, I thought I could, and that's, you grieve all that, man, that's tough. Not to mention, you're a close friend, or you're right or die, or you got kids, like, just the dance of it all is a mess.

And I think we don't talk about the economic impact. Generally, for women after divorce, their net worth goes down. And I think we don't talk about the economic impact. Generally for women after divorce, their net worth goes down. And often on two income homes, the guys goes up for a season, right? So it's tough, man. But yeah, I think people think if I can just stop feeling bad here, then everything in my life is going to be great. And here's the path.

I can just no fault this in 30 days, we have to sign the paper, we can just call it good. And I think it gets real hard after that. How, what percentage, I know it's impossible to put a number on this, but how much of the failure in marriage do you think is actually people literally choosing the wrong person? Like being attracted to someone who you lost after

and you have trauma aligned versus like a good teammate or a partner and you misconstrue that that roller coaster up and down, endorphins and stuff flying as like love when it's really not. It's your attraction to your trauma that you're actually brought together and you're not even supposed to be together. Or do you not subscribe to that? Well, I don't, I don't have any data on that. Out of the gate, I still will. I cause I, cause here's the opposite argument is that people marry for the quote, unquote right reason and it's just going to work. And that's not true either.

The only way my marriage works is I wake up every day and I decide I'm gonna love that woman today. Sure, so there's exceptions to rules on both sides. I could also see where the two people. I think you both have to decide, man. Right. You have to decide. I mean, that's also powerful too,

because that was something I learned. I mean, I used to say as a kid that I didn't believe in love because of all my trauma and bullshit, right? But I mean, love is a choice. It's a choice. It's a choice. I wish someone would have taught me that. Like I, I was taught, it was, you know, the Disney thing was like a, yeah, like Titanic, man. I'm going to walk into a room. I dated my wife for five years.

We broke up all the time. Um, and cause I grew up when, uh, it was good will hunting and Titanic came through the theaters around the same time. And I was like, oh, that's what that is. Like I'll just see her, I'll know, and we'll call it. And I didn't know anything about loyalty. I didn't know anything about ride or die. I didn't know anything about my own insecurities.

I just was like, no, that's what the music will swell. This is what will happen. I think love is a choice that comes with the rad blessing of some pretty amazing feelings along the way. But it's a choice and it's a choice and it's a choice and it's a choice. And it's just not Hollywood, man. It sucks. Which work and sacrifice is paired to that, right? That's it. It's same as getting in shape, man. Same as growing a business.

Same with doing anything that matters. Same with growing a garden, dude. It's anything that matters is a lot of boring, a lot of repetitive, a lot of discipline, a lot of it's kind of of repetitive, a lot of discipline, a lot of, it's kind of lame, and some pretty amazing times. Well, so what's interesting about a lot of this is that as a young man or young man, when people say, oh, you're married, oh, life's over. Oh, it's so much more fun being single. You'll have more sex. You'll have better sex. It's a good time. The data actually shows- It's not true. Married men have more sex. The most satisfying sex that people report are couples who've been together a

long time. Yes. And it's not couples in their twenties. It's like couples in their sixties. In other words, they've been together for a long time. They don't have perfect bodies anymore. And yet they're having the most connected, uh, you know, sex that they've ever had. But a lot of people aren't familiar with this because media portrays it as the opposite. So I feel like it's sold so terribly. Well, in what I'm, what I'm wrestling with right now, um,

and I'm trying to work it out in my head, it'll take me a while. I think we told everybody that you are the most important thing in the world and you are like, so when you get your individual life, right, then you can go join forces with some other individual who's got their life right. Right. Good luck. And I don't think that's right. No.

I think two imperfect knuckleheads get together and stumble through it and are at the beginning are dumb enough to keep going and then realize, oh, I'm better with and without. And you just keep going and you grind it and you figure it out. It's a conversation, maybe it was with you, it was either with you or Lane. It was like, when I started this whole thing, I was still just the same size as I've been. And it was like, will you just shut up

and just start lifting every day? Just be quiet and start lifting weights and shut up. That's probably Lane, I wouldn't say that. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. But it was like this, just stop talking. Yeah. Look at me and look at you, just lift. And then all of a sudden, like, if we go back

and look at the interview I did two or three years ago here, I look different, right? My shirts don't fit anymore. Some in the bad way, but some in the good way, right? But like, you just gotta keep doing it. You just gotta keep doing it, you just gotta keep doing it. And be really grateful for the, when those times are amazing

and be really honest and intentional about when they're not. Do you think there's like milestones or tipping points when partners figure that out that are like, I don't know, like if there's certain things. Yeah, is there data on that? Like after 10 years, after 15? Or certain events, like this happened and then all of a sudden that it clicks that like, oh yeah, we could, the more work and sacrifice and we do for each other, the greater

we're paid off. We, Katrina and I have this like saying in our relationship that like anytime we do like our gratitude and stuff together, it's like, man, why is this so good? It's like, this is God rewarding us for putting in the hard work. We've made these sacrifices, we do these things, we're consistent with it, and it's like, that's why it's so good. And we say that to each other. Is there things like that or exercises that marriages can go through intentionally to

achieve that feeling, I guess? Get where I'm going with that? Yeah, I mean, I, one of the things coming out of me and my wife deciding if we're gonna stay together or not is, it goes back to, well, I got it from, his name is Rick Lytle, he was the Dean of the Business College where I worked. And I had a staff and he's a great speaker

and I needed someone to speak at one of our like, staff meetings, so he came. And he was talking about his family values that they had on the wall in their home and that they had worked through as a family. And then he said, he talked about his strategic plan that go through every year. And I was like, oh God, leave it to a businessman

to ruin a family. And I asked a question, my staff supposed to be asked a question, they're not asking. And I'm like, all right, dude, why do you have a strategic plan for your family I'm, my staff supposed to be asked a question, they're not asking. And I'm like, all right, dude, why do you have a strategic plan for your family? Well, here's what he said. He goes, how many businesses spend five years of consultants, time,

vision, casting, budgeting, spreadsheeting, planning. And there was the magic sentence he said for something that doesn't matter. And then you just go home to the thing that is legacy, your family tree, and you have no training, no planning. You just do it like your dad did it. You have no centralized thing other than what our society tells us, which is how do you feel today, right? And that guides us.

So you've got two people untrained, not know what they're doing. You throw kids in the mix, you throw financial stress in the mix, you throw job loss in the mix, parent loss in the mix, not knowing what they're doing. You throw kids in the mix. You throw financial stress in the mix. You throw job loss in the mix. You throw parent loss in the mix. And you're just doing this. So he said, we decided to ask ourselves, who are we going to be? And so my wife and I, again, I was scrambling to try to save my marriage. And so like, all right, we're going to start a strategic plan every year.

And then we have an economics, a, what are some things you want to try this year? Like romantically, sexually, what do you want to try? Like, going out and try dancing this year? I'm going to try jiu-jitsu. What are the things we want to be about? What kind of parent are we going to be? And then the next year is, how do we do? What was wrong?

What was good? We look month by month. And it has been extraordinary. And by the way, we were talking about Dr. Becky Kennedy earlier. By having a set of family values, I don't say things like when my daughter or my son pops off like all kids do. I don't say, hey, you don't talk to my wife that way, get out. Because then I teach my kids, there's a line to

which you have fractured your relationship with me. There's a line which, if you cross it, I'm going to send you away from me. Now I say to my son, Hey, the Delonys don't talk to each other that way. You just opted out. And now this house isn't going to work as well because you're not with us. Don't opt out, man. We need you here, but you opted out for 15 minutes or 25 minutes or 30 minutes.

And he learns the responsibility that he plays, right? So it's a total reframe. My wife can say, Hey dude, we got invited to this thing. One of our core family values in our house is you say yes, because we're both introverts, we're both nerds and we could both just go to bed at eight o'clock and call it. And so I know it's not healthy for me.

And so one of my rules is if you get invited, you got to say yes. And so all the guys get in there for the fights. I'm, that's why I'm here in town. Like I'm going to a concert man. Like, Hey, we should go. And my first thought was to just want to go to bed. And then I have to go, it's going to be a great time. But when I'm start to say, I don't want to go, my wife says, it's not who we are. Like, all right, we're going. How important is it for, uh,

for men and women to have good friends outside of the marriage that are also couples, you know, where they could have other families and couples too. Well, most spouses end up one of two things. They end up the play-by-play therapist, which is not their job, or they end up the trash can. Like you just come home and just vomit all the work stuff, all the crap. And like, I don't know how y'all work, but your spouse, y'all crazy, man. Like that's an extra layer of planning and all that. But you have to have people outside of that, that you are able to offload, to complain, to be frustrated about things, try to solve problems.

My wife is way smarter than me. She doesn't even solve her problems. When she comes in and says like today was hard at work because of this, this and this. When I start being like, well, you know, you should have just told that guy, man, she doesn't even solve her problems. When she comes in and says like today was hard at work because of this, this and this. When I start being like, well, you know, you should have just told that guy, man, she doesn't need that for me. She just needs me to sit with her. And when I say something to her, I need some help,

man, but I can't say I need some help. So I'll say, I'm really struggling with something and she's learned, oh, you just handed me the ratchet and you want me to try to take a turn and see if I can fix it. So, um, I've got to have other people that I talk to, I've got my own counselor, I've got my own group of buddies and she's got her, she's leaving this weekend to go to Florida, hang out with her old college roommates.

Like they're still super tight. She has to have that. What are, what are some, what does the data show on practices that, that successful families and marriages, um, have? Like in other words, is, is, does having a spiritual practice play a big role? Uh, date night, you know, like, are there practices that we see in the data? In other words, does having spiritual practice play a big role? Date night, you know, like are there practices that we see in the data that's like, okay, successful families, they tend to do these things and the ones that aren't so successful

tend to not. Well, I can speak more to the, well, I can speak more to the family outcome. Kids do better when there's people, families have dinner together, right? Like little small things like that. When parents coordinate things together, when both parents are involved, right? I don't know the data off the top of my head when it comes to particular family practices. It's been my experience sitting with people that every family is just super weird in their own weird way, right?

Some people just like to put on jorts like Justin's family go hiking. That's true. Or you like do somersaults on the trampoline. That's amazing, right? And y'all may want to like work out together. And me and my wife like to sit by each other and read books. Right? Like, and we don't even talk.

We're just right next to each other. And I like that. And I'm embarrassed that I was just embarrassed to say that out loud. I don't think I've ever said that. But like, if my wife's like, Hey, let's just go sit and read. I'd be like, yeah. Right. It's embarrassing for me, but it is what it is. And so I think every family is unique in what brings them energy and peace and

all that. But I think the magic is what would probably the thread that would bind every family together, especially married couples is do we talk about it? And do we honor each other's weird things? Is it, is it necessary for your partner to have a lot of things in common with you? No, no. Talk about that a little bit because a lot of people think that that's nice. We have to have everything in common. We have to be identical.

But it can create difficulties. It creates lots of it creates difficulties. I think if you don't have tools to talk about them, right. Right. And, and I'm pointing at me because it says me and our relationship, um, going to Vegas to see social D this weekend, right? My wife rather set herself on fire. Didn't go to that trip.

Right. And, um, this makes me kind of lame. I don't like going and sitting on the beach for six hours. I'd rather go fishing. I'd rather go do something. And that's where she's going this weekend, right? And so it makes things complicated. Like we had to navigate childcare, we had to navigate different things and all that. And then sometimes on a vacation, we lean more towards what she wants to do. And sometimes we lean more towards what I want to do.

That's about taking your ego out of it. But that's all we can only do that now that we've learned to talk before that 15 years of whatever you want, honey, whatever you want, dude. And I just resent her the whole time we're there. Or I was not going to say anything. John wants to do this and we'll just go do it. And then she's resenting me the whole time. It just makes it hard, man. You know, you have, you have one teenage boy,

one teenager. 14 year old and eight year old. And eight year old. What, what about smartphones and the role that they're playing? So you have one teenager? I'm a 14 year old and an eight year old. And an eight year old. What about smartphones and the role that they're playing? Cause I just saw, I think it was Jonathan Haidt just came out with a book. Yeah dude, what a masterpiece.

I've seen, have you read it? I've got it sitting right on my bed. Okay, so I've seen, I've read about it, haven't read it, but I've read about it and I've seen some interviews and I think he's advocating for like kids not to have them till like 16 or something like that because of the data. Like how, how do you navigate that as a parent?

Cause like I, like I said, I have four kids, but there's a big age gap. And my older kids were during that they came around right when smartphones were like a thing and we really didn't know what the hell. So it was like, here you go. Here's your iPad. Oh, cool. Kids are quiet. Now it's like, Oh, this is probably not a good idea. Like,

like what do you think is good practices for families around giving your kid a smartphone, navigating that boundaries? Well, the whole argument I think for me is predicated on this. Um, there was about 10 years ago and it was an article written and it just said the number one purchasers of iPads was parents of two and three and four year olds. And my buddy copy and pasted it and sent it to me. And one of the parents, when they were interviewing, like, what are you doing? Why are you buying this?

And she said, I don't, I know it's not good. I don't think it's good, but everyone else has it. And here was her, the final line. I don't want my kid to be the only one. And so he texted it to me. He's a rancher out in West Texas. He's, he's, he's just like you would imagine. He's amazing. And he said, I have one parenting goal and that is to be the only one. And that has guided us, me and my wife.

And so I don't look to my kids for their approval. My job is not to get their approval, not to like, how, how does this make you feel? My job is to make sure my kids are safe and they're growing into amazing contributing men and women. That's my job. Right. And so I would never, I don't know, I can't write my head around handing my kid access to the, to the internet on a device. It's a madness. And Sean,

my buddy Sean Ryan in Nashville, he says, you're not handing your kid the internet. You're handing the internet your kid, right? Because that stuff's coming this way, too, right? And so I just can't wrap my head around doing that. Never offer that to my kid. My 14-year-old, because he's raised by nerds, especially me, he gave us a presentation last year. And why he should get one?

Well, here's what he advocated for. He said, Dad, at least you had a phone on the wall with one of those little spindly, those little, you know, swirly cords where you could call your friends and they could call you. And he, we live out on some acres out in the woods and he said, I got nobody. When I leave school, I'm cut off from everybody. And I actually said, that's actually fair. That's a fair, missed birthday parties, missed get togethers. They were all going to the impromptu things that I would have got a call. He was cut off from that. So that was fair.

So for Christmas this year, I asked him to draw me up a contract, me and his mom a contract. He drew it up, grades, you grades, chores, all that stuff. I bought myself another phone that stays plugged in in our main home area. If it gets unplugged, then it dies. It's mine. It stays plugged in.

My son can text. He can call as long as these things from a central location. It's not going in his room. We took all the internet and stuff off of it. So I want him to be able to communicate socially. That's important. I don't want him to feel untethered. That's on me. I missed up.

I missed the boat on that, but I'm not going to give him the internet. Um, and what age do you think that's, that's, that you should start thinking about it? I mean, it's in my mind right now, just looking at the data that is like asking, when is it, when is it smart to start smoking? Wow. So it's more like I, I can't. Tell us about the data. What is it showing?

I mean, read Hyatt's book. It's melting children and, and they're so, it feels, and again, I got no proof on this. The, the folks coming to say it's still, we still don't know for sure, it's still too premature, sounds a lot like the sugar arguments from the 60s, right? When there was a few researchers that were really loud about, uh-uh, uh-uh, look over here, look over here. You just can't look at the trend lines, man. You can't hand every kid a phone, have every kid fall off the map psychologically and be like, we don't know. That correlation is so strong, I'm fine with it. This is a good conversation. This is also probably true. It's going to trigger a lot of people. I we don't know. That correlation is so strong, I'm fine with it. This is a good conversation.

This is also probably true. It's going to trigger a lot of people. I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. But good to have, though. I'm going to play the devil's advocate on the other side, right, even though I agree with you guys. I think that what matters even more

is what that is replacing. That's it. That's it. Because I do believe that if you're doing a lot of the other things that we talked about as a father, a parent and stuff like that, and that you're interacting with your kid, you're communicating with your kid,

they feel comfortable enough to come to you with their problems and talk to you because you've laid that foundation and you're consistent on a daily basis with things like that, then them inserting those dangerous things like social media, phone and stuff like that, less likely to be as damaging. If you allow it to become this thing that they plug into and go in their room and disappear and you don't do those things as a father, that's where I think this, where a lot

of this data is coming from and what I think has happened to a lot of parents. And I've watched it firsthand because you know, as a busy parent who's working a lot or has multiple kids, I get how exhausting it can be to come home and now do more work, be a parent. I got a digital babysitter, man. And now you have this and they're happy and content. And so to me, I think that's probably the most dangerous part of that. Well, the, the hard part about taking away a smartphone, the hard part about taking away, like not having social media in the house, man, I gotta put mine down

too, and I gotta get off my laptop and I can't bring a bunch of work home. And so I've got to go just yesterday. My daughter and I were out in the front yard. I don't fully understand what game we were playing, but it was like, I pitched a ball and she hit it and then she ran to, she, she knew the base paths in her head. I didn't know where we were going. And my dog was, I didn't know what we were doing, but I know I was exhausted and I wasn't sitting down on the couch, just chilling.

Yeah. I have to, I have to miss the next episode. That means I've got a parent. And I'll be the first to say, I love my kids more than life itself. It's hard, and it sucks, and it's every single day, and it doesn't stop. And I chose to bring them into this world,

and so it's my job to connect with them. That's the other thing is you can't just say, no, get on your, no games, no this, no that. And then dad goes, it's the Netflix thing. And then it's it's like I'm gonna parent you and tell you not to do it But then I'm not gonna engage To be in the United Front in that right being a team with your partner and your spouse Which is not always is straight forward right like it's you know has to be constantly brought up like this is this is a rule. This is something that we're all abiding by. And I know that that's something that is going to

bring friction up and we've had to work through that. Similar to what we found is given my son access to phone, but it just has not worked out. And so this was an experiment. We told him this was an experiment to see how it's going to affect school, his interactions with his friends, his behavior around us. And it just had a negative trend. And so we took it away. And then, you know, there's fights and there's presentations and there's all these things, but,

and then the, you know, there's occasional slides of like, well, let's give him, you know, some time here and there because he's earned it, whatever. But yeah, in terms of it affecting his mind, his behavior, a hundred percent, it affects it. Here's how I know, to answer your original question. And I think you're dead on. And I think with, when parents set absolutes and also they get dogmatic, some, a few things you got to be super dogmatic about. But I think that flexibility is a great gift to your kids.

They're modeling mom and dad aren't concrete pillars. They're human beings. They breathe. I tell my son all the time, the greatest most wise words a person can say is I've changed my mind. I learned something new. I'd consider that perspective. And so when I changed my mind and I'm like, you know what? You're right, son. I'm modeling for him what a guy who's a thinker and who suggests that reading and learning and changing your beliefs are important. I just, I model it for him. To answer your question about time and age, here's what I know. This is an N equals one for me. I

was the Chief Student Affairs Officer at Belmont University, a billion-dollar college. I had no social media, never had it. Never had it. I had Facebook for like a month in college and then my grandpa sent me a friend request and I was like, I'm out. Right? I didn't, I was like, I'm out. I don't know what this is we're doing, but I'm not doing this. Oh, and I had a buddy who was an attorney and I was in court with them once and they were reading a Facebook message. Well, they said, pull up the private messages. I leaned over and I go, I can't get the private messages. And the way he laughed, he goes, there's no private messages.

And I was like, and we're out. Right. So I had no social media. And then for this new gig, I've got it now. Like it's where my job, a chunk of my business works on there. It was a couple of years ago after having it for about 18 months, maybe 24 months, I was in my closet, in my room, my closet's in my master bathroom. So I'm behind three doors, my closet door, my bathroom door, my bedroom door. My kids are running around.

I hear my wife hollering them and I'm just like, ah, and I remember scrolling, just sitting there and I started laughing and I, I literally all alone by myself went, well done guys. You got me. Like y'all beat me. I lost, right? I lost. Um, they're better than me.

I can't, I can't. I have it on a separate phone. I, I know they're better than me. I can't. I can't. I have it on a separate phone. I Know they're better than me. They the the neuropsychiatrist that in the psychologist that worked on the stuff the tech guys They're better than me. They beat me and so I can't in good in good faith say This is 16 is when you should give your kids I think 16 is when you make lose a fight or as a parent or 18 when they go to college Yeah, they may lose a fight the argument. I thought you were gonna say that I've 16 is when you may lose a fight, or as a parent, or 18 when they go to college. They may lose a fight.

The argument I thought you were going to say that I've heard is you're hurting your kids because they're not going to be prepared for the world they're entering. And I remember this digitally native world. And I remember back in 2012 talking to some guys in the tech world. I was part of a think tank, and we were listening

to these guys talk. and I brought that up. I want my kid to know how this stuff works. And he said back in 2013, 2012, 2013, dude, by the time your kid is using this stuff, it will be so irrelevant. Yes, it will be so irrelevant and it will be so Intuitive. Intuitive.

Yeah. Like this little digital stuff, it won't matter. And as we see AI, like he's like, I was like, oh, that dude called it, man. Right? It's the connecting with their friends part that was getting to me, but it's like, you just got to make more effort to get their friends over and get them over to the friend's house. So I posted the other day, I needed to do a post.

I have a social media person and she's always like, got to do a post. Right? So I had a house full of middle schoolers. It was just chaos, which is one of my favorite things. It's just loud and they were outside catching rabbits. And then they were playing on, they were all playing outside. But I walk inside and my wife always just has a bowl, a big fruit bowl that all the kids walk in. They just drop their phones in and they head out to the back, right?

And they head out into the woods and wherever they're whatever doing there, the band was practicing. So they're playing music, chasing, right? And they head out into the woods and wherever, whatever doing there, the band was practicing, so they're playing music, chasing critters, whatever they're doing. And I just took a picture of it and posted it and said, this is what this looks like in my house. Like, we don't have, I don't want kids running around. By the way, my kid doesn't have a phone

to go look up pornography as a 14 year old, unfettered, throughout the world. I don't want that in his head. But if all his friends are over with their, it's the same thing. Right. And so when you walk into our house, when people come to the Dulony house, they know they just dropped the phone and they take off.

So that post went wild in support, but also the negative wild. Well, oh, I would never like you steal those kids. Really? You think I'm like, no kids, you can't like, I'm playing defense on this. defense on this do you want to text your mom text your mom or if you call home call home I just want a home base and to what you to your point my wife especially she's done the lion shared this she's super good friends with all my friends my son's friends right all their moms call her if they really we have so and so text me real quick I can check of course. And so it's different than when we grew up.

My parents didn't know any of my friends' parents. We ran around all that. It's just a different era. Going back to the original, I gotta learn some new skills. We gotta make friends with our friends, with our kids' friends. It's work. Yeah, to hang out. And my kid takes work.

To raise a good man, to raise a good daughter, raise a good woman, takes work. They're defensive because they're doing it the other way and they kind of know deep down inside, like, ugh, I'm not doing it right. You know, tell a parent what they're doing isn't the right thing. It's scary.

You're gonna, yeah, you're gonna stir up some serious. But I think parents have to ask themselves, do you want to have access to your kid so they can text you or do you feel good that you can text them? Is this about your safety psychologically or about their physical safety? And I think now that my son has a phone, as I was taking off today, I texted my wife, love you, we're taking off.

I'm not going to lie, man, it felt good to be able to text him. Hey, you take care of my daughter, right? Like, you have a good time, make good choices. It felt good to text her, but that's about my daughter, right? Like, you have a good time, make good choices. It felt good to text her, but that's about my comfort, not his. I read this article actually, in fact, and I've been testing this with my older kids, where when you text your kid and they read the text,

it doesn't affect them neurochemically the same way as just hearing your voice. That's right. And so we have outsourced all of our relationships to digital, right? And when you text somebody, you're sending them data. You are not connecting with them. I can text my wife all day long, I love you,

I love you, you look so beautiful tonight, I can't believe I get to be married to you. I'm sending her data. Her body does not feel loved and safe. She feels loved and safe when she sees me, right? When my shoulders drop and I walk in the door, when I smile at her, when I see thin, her body goes, he's home.

And we just outsource all that crap. You mentioned pornography, social media pornography, smartphones, right? That all exploded at the same time with the introduction of smart folks. What about the impact of pornography on this younger generation? I just looked up some data the other day

and I was shocked at how they find structural differences in brains that are supposed to. That's catastrophic, yeah. I mean, we had a social experiment. It's a huge, it's a huge, it's a wild experiment we're playing. My thinking through this started years ago when I realized parents weren't letting their kids go to their grandparents' funeral. They didn't want to see that, right? They didn't want them to be

in that room. And yet they're watching all these shows with all this violence. And so kids were watching countless acts of violence, seeing death all the time, but their body had never felt what it's like to be in a room with someone who died in grief and more, that heaviness in that room. Similarly, now you have a generation of people, we all burned an entire movie just trying to like, get our hand over to see if we could hold hands, right? Yeah.

Like, think of it like a light switch. That light switch slowly goes up over time, right? With puberty, with she can hold my hand. Right. We get a kiss, right? And now they miss that whole, that whole biochemical natural physiological process. It's all just 12 years old.

Somebody hears the word 69 and they don't know what, I mean, they, not the word, but they, someone's like 69 on the bus. I'd ask somebody in the locker room, what's 69? Now they just Google it and right. And now they're never coming back. So they see a million sex act. And I made that number up. They see countless acts of sex.

And by the way, it's in all of our media, all of our TV shows all the time, and they've never held hands. Right. And so you're seeing the record levels and they've never held hands, right? And so you're seeing the record levels of impotence, 18, 25 year olds, it doesn't make sense physiologically, and yet their brains are different, man. We've transformed a generation of person like that. Do you deal with a lot of marriages where that's a problem

within a marriage too? I know we're talking about kids right now and what that does to their brain. How often do you get questions about that with like husbands or wives that are addicted to it? I mean a lot. Yeah. On the show I get that a lot. And it ranges, right? It ranges from somebody who is... I mean, it's relative. I've had somebody call my show and say like, I'm watching porn and masturbating 15 times a day, 20 times a day. Um, and I know that sounds like a normal,

normal Saturday, but like slow day. Oh, but like I'm late for work. I'm, I'm struggling. Right. And then somebody else who looked at pornography four years ago and they can't get those pictures out of their head and they can't sleep and they think that they've, you know what I mean? So it's a range, right?

Um, I'm just struggling to find, if you're able to communicate and if you're able to be honest about, I am feeling, um, less life in this relationship, what can you and I do to pour some gas back on that tiny little fire that's burning, right? That's a scary, hard, vulnerable conversation. It's so much easier just to go over here and turn the computer on and let that be whatever you want and get that fire. It's a fake fire, but get that heat from over here and then

go back and that fire in your house a fake fire, but get, get that heat from over here and then go back and you're that, that fire in your house just slowly goes out, man. And so I, my challenge to people is yes, it's easy. It's easy. Let's just watch it together and let's figure out some, you can. My challenge to you is what about us? Yeah. We don't need a third party, a fourth party, a fifth party. Um, or if it's the stuff Justin watches, like 14 other parties in it, right? I don't know why I'm clowning you. The greatest guy here.

What does it look like to sit down and say, like there's something at the root of it, right? Yeah. There's something at the root, which is the same as that. It's that lifeless. It's SF Perrell talks about most people cheat not because they're not in love with this person, but because somebody else made them feel a little more alive. That's a pornography. Do you have more like, I really, my biggest takeaway

this entire conversation is the picture conversation before. That's such an easy thing I can implement right away. Like we're getting ready to go off to the family thing, we're going on a vacation, it's a whatever. It's a Tuesday morning. And one of our kids got a dentist appointment. Hey, what's your picture for? Yes Like I love I'm gonna take I thought you're gonna take Such a such an easy thing to implement. What are other things like you have anything else like that where you think like man?

this is a I'll use another example that changed my life too was the We're listening to Jordan Peterson on I think it was Rogan and he made the comment about how listening to Jordan Peterson on, I think it was Rogan. And he made the comment about how we make these plans to go on vacation a year in advance. And we spend hours and hours and hours preparing for this three day vacation that we're gonna do one time in our life. And it's like a fraction of all the time.

And he goes, and then he compared to you walking the door to greet your wife and kid every single day, for 15, 30 minutes. And yet you spent no time preparing on how you, how you present yourself or how you come to your, and like that, like just, just by simply stopping in my driveway, regathering myself, disconnecting from work and going like, how am I going to approach, like that's game changer. Can you think of like small practices like that, that go such a long way in a marriage that you, you've given people as far as advice to help them out?

Yeah, that one, I'm a person of faith and so I, on my good days, I don't do it every time, but on my good days, pulling into the driveway and whispering a quick prayer, I don't know what her day has been and I don't know what those kids' day has been. I'm no longer at work, I'm at home. Here we go. Right? And it's the third half those kids day has been. I'm no longer at work. I'm at home. Here we go. Right. And it's the third half of your day, right? You got the first half and the second half of work,

and then you got a third half, right? At nighttime. And they're worth that. But I think it's a practice that transitions. Some people need to go to gym, some go to the coffee shop and write, whatever that is. The word that I keep coming back to is intentional. Stop doing work and do dad.

Stop doing work, stop doing dad, do husband, do wife, be there. I think you actually gave a tip that I actually stole this, I think, from you. I changed my outfit too. So I walk in from home. That's for Mr. Rogers. Oh, is it really?

No, no, no, it wasn't you who said this? I thought you said it during the pandemic, right? Well, during the pandemic, I told people when they were having to homeschool, and be mom, and be what? Change your outfit. Have a hat. So I do that for like, so what I'm wearing right now,

when I get home in a few hours, I will literally instantly, after I do the thing in the driveway, then I go right upstairs after I greet my son, and I put like sweats and shorts. I'm dad. I'm dad. Yeah. Yeah.

And it helps that process. Like not only the stopping, but then the changing of clothes. It's like, I'm no longer look like I even look like. That's exactly right. The other one, um, I got from Bernadette Brown, which I think it's, it's the other game changer, the, the, what's your picture of us look like? And the second thing, if I had to put on there, um, I read about it, she said this was a practice with her and her husband and I kind of rolled my eyes and my wife happened to be walking. Um, I read about it. She said this is a practice with her and her husband. And I kind of rolled my eyes and my wife happened to be walking through

and I asked her about it. My wife is a stoic, right? She gives Ryan Holliday a run for his money. She is a stoic and she just started like tears came down her eyes when I asked her about this and it has transformed our, our marriage. When you have the inevitable conflict, it's easy to say, you just start with you just. You just get all pissed off, you get all triggered,

you didn't even dress up for this, like it's easy. And when you do that, it starts a cascade of fight or flight. I have to defend myself when somebody comes at you. And so the words we use in my house, and again, it's directly from Dr. Brown, is the story I'm choosing to make up is, fill in the blank. And where she got that from is her, I guess her husband's mother had lived with them for a while

or visited for a long time. And then she said, it was late at night, he was looking in the fridge and the light of the fridge was on him and she said, hey, don't forget my mom's coming tomorrow. And he shut the door real hard and the light of the fridge was on him and she said, hey, don't forget, my mom's coming tomorrow. And he shut the door real hard and he goes, are you freaking serious? That's tomorrow?

And she said, she went to InstaRage. And it just immediately, are you freaking kidding me? Your mom's been with us for, in my, and he waited for the storm to pass and he said, your mom's one of my favorite people in the world and I've got that stupid dinner tomorrow night. Is there any way? And so he was saying, are you freaking kidding me?

Because he wanted to be with her. And yet that's all the exhaustion and whatever was going on in her life started this story machine. And so when I find myself getting upset or I feel I start creating stories about my wife did what she just did. Yeah. Oh, you just did that. Because you here's the story.

Story I'm choosing to make up is you made that dinner because you just want to poke at me because you know it's not my favorite dinner. I like that. I learned something in therapy a long time ago. Therapist once said to me, you know, the inevitable is going to happen. You're going to fight.

So go ahead. Just do this one thing for me. You can't say you. Yep. I love it. Go for it. Go for it. You cannot use that word.

And it was like, damn, that's harder than you think. It's real hard. Especially in the mobile. It has to be I. Yes for it. Go for it. You cannot use that word and it was like damn that's harder than you think Especially in the moment. It has to be I. Yes, it has to be I. I feel this way. I want, I need. Yes, it's like so wild to take that one thing and just say okay, I'm not gonna change anything else I'm just gonna say I can't say you and I'm angry and I'm coming and it's like oh the first thing you want to do It's like you did this you it's like now just have that argument without you That's right. And the third one is I think changing the environment. I always, probably the most common thing I'll say on my show all the time, all the time, all the time is go to breakfast. Because I think going to dinner, you kind of cap it and things can get kind of heavy and they turn the lights down low. There's something about going to

breakfast together and it's sunny out, there's light and it takes all the emotion away from it. There's no, there's, there's no music that's going to swell in the middle of the morning. Right. And it's just saying we're at, we're off site. You go to a hotel, the vibe is different than at home. You're at home, your body knows got to do this, got to know, got to do. When you're at a restaurant and you're out, yes, things get heated. So you have to act like adults. It's kind of forcing some boundaries on that conversation. Um, but it's like,

Hey, start with I, like, I start with I. I'm not feeling great about this marriage. Not, you never want to have sex anymore. Well, no, she has to fight you, right? And so I feel like I don't feel loved right now. I'm feeling lonely. Ooh, that's scary to say. Well, that was the reason for the advice,

was that when you say you to someone, it's our natural instinct to immediately wall up, immediately wall, immediately defend cause you're attacking right away versus if you just take that out, it forces them to kind of have. You mentioned this earlier in your business, an employee does something. When you come out, you screwed this up. Now they got to fight you or more likely they're going to turtle up and hide. There's no learning. There's no teaching. There's just surviving. If, um, if I mess something up, my bot Dave will say, um,

man, I don't think I told you right. Here's like how this has to be. Right. I don't, I didn't, I clearly didn't communicate this. That's a hundred percent. My bad, right. That's a different way to enter into it. Now I'm like, man, it's all right. I messed that right. It instantly humbles it. And I want to learn so that doesn't happen again. There's a, um, there's a practice that I used to do in business with my I missed that, right? It instantly humbles it and I want to learn so that it doesn't happen again. There's a practice that I used to do in business with my employees like that, that I think also translates to this.

I've actually never thought about using this exercise with my wife, but I'd love to hear your opinion on it. So I used to get these value cards, and I'd put like 50 of the most popular values that people could have. And I think my staff, the person I'm working with, narrow it down to their top five values. And I said, now narrow it down to their three,

three most important values. Then what I did was I took that and I put it, I paired it with all of the, so I had, you know, John's top three values, you know, family, you know, success, growth or something like that, whatever your three were. And anytime I had to come to you, like definitely if I had to coach up

or you fucked up or like that, I never led with that. I led with asking you about your three values first. And so I could see that being a powerful tool too of like you know your wife really well or your husband and these are the things or his three really important things. Before I give him shit

because he didn't do the dishes or he forgot to take the trash out or because she said this or did this to me, let me ask her first about her three things. Because I imagine how many times arguments and things happen just because of emotional stuff that's going on in their day or because one of their values is out of whack.

And so then, but they're pissed off about the trash when the trash is not that big of a deal, but it's really their values are unaligned. I think what you're getting at is any level of intentionality matters. Right. That's the thing that tells me I'm important. Right. Yeah.

The last time we were here, y'all knew me well enough to know what I like, like one of my hobbies. And I have a weird little subsection of the hobbies that I share with Justin. Like that, that level of intentionality was way more important than the gift. It was like, man, dude, right? Every time I walk by that, that has a prominent place in my music where I live. Cool. Every time I walk by it's a a memory of the level of intentionality.

And so new guys that I trust and are good people, but like, those dudes thought about me when I was in the room, right? And if you give that to your spouse, good God, man. Like, and by the way, it's so easy. It's just easy, man. It's just easy. I mean, it's that simple. It's as simple of just asking, you know, that shows that you care.

An easier one is, how can I love you today? That's kind of another version of what So. An easier one is, how can I love you today? That's kind of another version of what your picture is. Like, how can I love you today? And sometimes my wife will say, don't ask me that question. You know what I mean? Just don't do your little babble stuff, psycho babble stuff. And that's fine. But sometimes she says, I don't know.

Cool. I know I'll put it out there and I ask. Good deal. John, always great having you on, man. Yeah, yeah. You guys are awesome. Love you, brother. Hey deal. John, always great having you on, man. Yeah, yeah. You guys are awesome, man. Love you, brother. Hey!

It's good to hear from you this time. It's awesome, man. You called me out. I love listening to conversations, man. That was good. That was good stuff. I'm gonna have it back. I'm grateful for you.

We gotta have it back on again. No! You guys gotta come to Nashville. Yes, yes, yes. I want to come for this, the holiday. I want to come out there for the Christmas time. That's when I really want to go there. Dude, come out and we'll make some internet pieces.

I know. You've already told us that we could use the studio. That was our only hesitation to make that trip. We got you. Screw it up, man. It'll be awesome. Yeah. It's way cooler than this.

I'm just kidding. You guys actually got great. When we hang these mics up, let's get these guys to commit to a date. I'm about it. I would love to do that. That would be incredible. Thanks, man.

Love you guys. Thank you all. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, That would be incredible. Thanks a lot. Love you guys. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

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