Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2347: Become a Better Husband, Wife, Father or Mother by Discovering Your Attachment Style With Adam Lane Smith

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

What is attachment theory and why should I care? (2:02) The six chemicals of the brain and how they affect your attachment. (7:48) #1 – Cortisol. (7:56) #2 – Oxytocin. (8:53) #3 – Gaba. (9:45) #4 – Vasopressin. (10:06) #5 – Serotonin. (10:37) #6 – Dopamine. (11:06) Why avoidant behavior is a lone wolf mentality. (12:33) How do I connect with my kids better? (16:34) Practices to improve your avoidant attachment. (19:05) Common challenges with women with avoidant men. (27:43) Breaking down the 7 attachment styles we need to understand. (31:27) How to identify which attachment style you are. (38:42) Signs you need to address your attachment issues. (39:54) Percentage numbers of attachment issues. (41:18) Common mistakes good-willing parents make that could lead to issues. (43:43) What’s missing in modern parenting/families? (45:01) Your kids are watching. (51:43) An exercise in how attachment can form in a child. (55:03) How to build secure attachment. (57:35) The goal of building peace mode. (1:02:18) Practices that can indirectly help your attachment style. (1:06:53) Why EVERYONE needs to be open to new relationships. (1:09:42) How to help ensure success. (1:13:55) What services does Adam offer? (1:16:42) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit Adam Lane Smith's website for exclusive offers for Mind Pump listeners! ** MIND - Bootcamp 50% OFF | MIND30 - Avoidant Man 30% OFF | MIND20 - Coaching 20% OFF ** Visit Xero Shoes for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Enter to win one of FIVE FREE pairs of Xero Shoes! ** May Promotion: MAPS Strong | MAPS Powerlift 50% off! ** Code MAY50 at checkout ** Mind Pump #2092: How To Cultivate Amazing Relationships With Adam Lane Smith Mind Pump #2185: Reclaiming Self-Love & Respect With Adam Lane Smith Mind Pump #2195: How To Make & Nurture Amazing Friendships With Adam Lane Smith Mind Pump #2205: Why Dating Sucks & How To Fix It With Adam Lane Smith Mind Pump #2215: Simple Hacks To Improve Any Marriage With Adam Lane Smith Mind Pump #2225: How To Be A Great Parent & Raise Successful Children With Adam Lane Smith Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Adam | Relationship Psychology (@attachmentadam) Instagram Podcast Adam Lane Smith – YouTube Email: [e-mail] C. Sue Carter - Kinsey Institute Dr. Glover  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, we brought back Adam Lane Smith. He's an attachment theory expert. In today's episode, we talk about how you can discover what your attachment theory is and how doing so will make you a better father, husband, wife, mother, parent. It's going to be an awesome episode. I really enjoyed this one

personally. By the way, if you go on his website, adamlanesmith.com, you can get 50% off his boot camp or 30% off his avoidant man course or 20% off of coaching. But you have to use the following codes. Mind is for the bootcamp. Mind 30 is for the avoidant man and mind 20 is for coaching. Now this episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors, zero shoes. These are great shoes to work out in. They're flat.

They've got a nice open toe box. They help with your, how you perform connecting to the floor. They don't cramp your toes. And if you go on their website, zero shoes.com forward slash mind pump zero spelled X E R O. You can enter to win a free pair of shoes. Also two days left for our May special. MAPS Strong, MAPS Power Lift, both 50% off. You got two days to act. If you're interested go to MAPSFitnessProducts.com and then use the code MAY50 for the discount. Alright, here comes the show. Alright, Adam, welcome back to the show. I'm so glad to be here you guys. We always enjoy having you here, man. Yeah, I mean we always get so many comments and

questions and just people really enjoyed the episodes that we did with you. So we wanted to have you come back and dive deeper into attachment theory. You and I talked through text, and you said you've broken them down into deeper subcategories, which I can't wait to get into. If we could do just a real quick overview for someone who hasn't heard those previous episodes, what is attachment theory? How is that being used to help people in

relationships and with their lives? I love this question. I get this question so often, what is attachment theory and why should I care? Right? And most of the time I get this from executives. I get it from my big guys that come in and they've achieved a lifetime of financial success and

they are crumbling at home, their marriage is about to die, guys who built hundred million dollar businesses. I had one guy come in and say, Adam, I have a $9 million print up on the line, I'm going to lose one of my three houses, but if I don't divorce her, my kids will disown me because they don't want to speak to me or her anymore.

So, and then he said, but why am I supposed to care about attachment? What is attachment supposed to do for me? So here's what So, and then he said, but why am I supposed to care about attachment? What is attachment supposed to do for me? So here's what I told him. I said, the way that you connect to other human beings determines all of the quality of your life. Everything's a relationship, whether it's a business, a family, anything.

So if you're excelling out there in business with the tactics you're using, but if you're dying at home and if everybody's leaving you alone, if you're drinking yourself to sleep at night, if you're being misunderstood, it's almost certain that you have an attachment issue. So. And now we develop these as ways to navigate the world, but these are largely developed.

And correct me if I'm wrong, this is something I'm very interested in. So I've done a lot of reading myself, mainly to help myself, but you develop this attachment, behaviors, or I guess part of who you are at this point off of your childhood, right? Because that sets the stage for, this is how you survive as a kid, but then this is, now you carry

this into adulthood, not necessarily beneficial when the context changes, but if you don't know you have a particular style, then it can make things go awry. Well, let's do this. Guys, raise your hands if you had maybe a challenging childhood that maybe set you up with different relationship skills than you'd like to have right now.

Anybody in this room? That's everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So the research shows that it's about 50% of adults right now in America have attachment issues because they grew up in a family system where either they didn't know how to get their needs met, they didn't know how to talk and be listened to, they didn't know how to connect with their family members and get what they needed from them in a way that wasn't going

to shame them or hurt them, or they went through daycare way too early and they were with strangers and they felt like they couldn't connect to people, right? Or abuse, neglect, any kind of issue that makes it hard for you to open up and trust other people as a kid or that makes you think you are not going to be taken care of. Huge challenge. Now with this, Adam, it could be, this is how it was for me. When I would look back, I have loving parents. They were both, my mom was at home, My dad worked. Good people, honest people.

Um, so I don't, I can't look back and be like, oh my God, all this crazy trauma happened. But just the, the, the way my house was, the responsibilities that I had as the oldest and how my parents were raised, cause that's, that's a big one, as, uh, when you're an adult, you have this way of attaching or developing relationships that then you just ends up

working out with your kid. And you could be a good person, you could go, my parents are very good people, very loving people, but that had an influence over me. So it doesn't have to be, because this was me, I was in denial for a long time with some of my challenges because I'd look back and be like, you know, I didn't have like crazy abuse,

my parents were there, it wasn't divorce, it wasn't all that stuff. So you're crazy, I'm fine, I'm perfectly fine. Yeah, it wasn't divorce. It wasn't all that stuff. So you're crazy. I'm fine. I'm perfectly fine. Yeah. But it's not like that. No, but, but as a kid, right?

What did you hear maybe when you asked your parents for something or if you contradicted them on something or if you asked a question that was a little deeper than they wanted to go, what, what happened? Oh, well, I mean, we're getting personal. I didn't. Yeah.

I didn't. I was the oldest of four. I was parentified very early on. So parentified meaning I had all of the responsibilities of another parent and I had all of the power of another parent. So I could literally ground my siblings. I could take away their privileges because my mom tried to manage and we didn't

have a lot of money growing up. So it was like my mom did everything manage, and we didn't have a lot of money growing up, so it was like my mom did everything by hand, whatever, so I was like her, I was her assistant manager at eight years old. And so I could do, so all of it as a parent, like I'm not gonna go, who do I go to when I have challenges and problems? Which led to me, these guys will tell you this,

like if I have a problem, they don't hear about it until it explodes. And I don't know how to talk about it. And right there, right there, what you said in there, you said, well, I didn't go to them with those things. I didn't talk to them about those things. But you did at some point, right? At some point you did.

Tried. You just don't remember it. And those memories that you carry from when you were one, two, three, your parents shaped you during those years so that as you grew from when you were one, two, three, your parents shaped you during those years so that as you grew, now you have no memory of those events of I will never ask anybody for anything because this happened. I will never raise a fuss because this happened. Your brain tagged those and you don't even remember them, but that's the pattern.

Yeah. And so what happens when you're a kid, as a child, your brain is wired for survival. These are your caretakers. So if something happens, it's advantageous from a survival standpoint, maybe not from a longevity, healthy relationship standpoint, but to survive, my brain is like, nothing's wrong with them, it's got to be something with me. Correct. So I got to adjust how I am and how I behave because if it nothing's wrong with them, it's got to be something with me. Correct. So I got to adjust how I am and how I behave, because if it's something wrong with them that I'm really screwed, then we're dead.

Correct. So what happens is you put it on yourself without even realizing, and then, correct me if I'm wrong, not only do your behavior shape, but your brain models and shapes itself around this so that later on it becomes very hard to change. It literally becomes a part of your structure.

Even the chemicals you get are very different. So there are six chemicals that I go through. I'm going to go through them with you guys and I'm going to make them very non-technical. The first one we need to know about is cortisol. It's a massive stress component. When you get stressed out, you experience pain, fear, worry. Cortisol is one of the major things that floods through your system. Usually adrenaline and stuff goes with it.

Fight or flight. Fight or flight. But cortisol is just a constant flow of stress all the time. And we all feel this all the time. It's like gravity. Your system is always being stressed out in some way.

Okay. Now the way that we manage that constant stress as kids is also the way we manage it as an adult. As kids, if you go to your parents and you say, Hey, I'm feeling this pain and this fear, The way that we manage that constant stress as kids is also the way we manage it as an adult. As kids, if you go to your parents and you say, hey, I'm feeling this pain or this fear, this problem, blah, blah, blah, can you help me? If they help you, they do what's called co-regulating.

They help solve a problem, they talk you through it, they help you feel better, they give you a hug, whatever it is, they help you navigate it. Now you've learned how to manage that cortisol, the gravity effect, constant. Okay. You've got, you've developed what's called secure attachment. I can work with other people to resolve stress. I'll just talk to them and work with them.

Okay. Now, if you don't learn that, if your parents shut you down, if they are arbitrary, they're hurtful, they're dismissive, they're controlling. And if your brain externalizes it and doesn't get what's called oxytocin, oxytocin is the love hormone, makes you feel warm and snuggly and safe and happy.

It's a big hug. It's a good conversation. If you don't get that at all, then your brain can focus on what's called avoidant attachment style. And I'll break this down further and more, but avoidant attachment is no one will ever help me. Other people will be arbitrary.

Other people will hurt me. Other people will be arbitrary. Other people will hurt me. Other people cannot be trusted to solve stress and problems with me. Other people will actually make it worse. So I'm going to go away from those people. So it shuts down your ability to get oxytocin and closeness with other people. Your high cortisol will actually block your receptors for oxytocin. So you can't get it even if you otherwise would. If you don't get oxytocin, you don't get something called GABA.

GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. It shuts down cortisol in the future, diminishes the effectiveness of it, diminishes the spikes, the pain, and makes it lower so that you don't experience it at all. That comes from oxytocin. It also gives you melatonin so you can sleep better. Right? Now, if you're not getting oxytocin and GAVA, you're probably also not getting the next

one called vasopressin, which is a hormone released when you solve quarters altogether with somebody else. Your brain tags them in and says, Hey, you're a good ally, you're a good friend, right? You guys have achieved this together as you've built your show, vasopressin bonding.

You've trusted each other, you've got through problems, through stress, that's why this brotherhood is formed right here. If you don't have that successful bonding with people in childhood, especially men, we're supposed to get this with our men, our father, our grandfather, our uncles, then you learn you can't solve problems with other people.

You don't get vasopressin either. And if you don't do all of this, you aren't having the deeper intimate conversations that are going to give you serotonin. Most people in fitness are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to grab the bottom 10% of serotonin that they can get because they're missing it in their relationships.

So then all you have is cortisol, cortisol, cortisol all the time. You're trying to find ways to solve it through your relationship strategies that you cannot work on with other people openly. So now you have to manage it through manipulative behaviors or through pleasing behaviors or through avoiding other people.

And all you're left with is what's called dopamine. So you're going to dopamine binge, which is where our world's at right now. People are dopamine binging into oblivion because it's the only thing they have to manage the endless flow of cortisol. So you just described me. So, no, you did. You really did.

So for me, it wasn't, you know, if I had a problem, it wasn't yelling or abuse in the classical sense. It was this. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is a lot of people do this without realizing that they could be causing problems. It was, and we do this to each other all the time. This is what we do. Oh, hey man, I'm really stressed out.

No, it's not a big deal. Look, look at the positive. Everything's great. You got a great family. You got a good job. So this is how I, this is, this is my family. Like anytime somebody has a problem, I know, I know where it came from, but my, my family's roots are very poor.

It was survival. Uh, they came from Sicily. Like it was, didn't have food half the time, so they carried it with them. So if I had a challenge, it was like, listen, you're fine. You're not sad. You're fine. You're not sad. You're strong. You could do this. You could handle this.

So what I learned to do was avoid my own feelings. So I just didn't feel them. And it was very effective for a certain period of time until it wasn't. So just, just communicating that. Cause a lot of us do that to our own kids, especially I've noticed this fathers and sons, you do this to your kid, your son, your three-year-old starts to cry, you're like, you're fine. You're, your son, your three-year-old starts to cry, you're like, you're fine, you're okay, don't cry,

don't worry about it, you're good, and then the kid learns, that's not a feeling I need to, I can't have, I can't have that. Explain why it's so difficult for somebody to not only recognize that or see that, but even be willing to want to fix it or change it. How often do these things feed into like some of the success you've had in your life?

Like I think right away, like Sal sharing and being vulnerable about his stuff, it's like some of those traits probably also is what made him such a great leader, right? He was already leading at eight years old. So when all of a sudden he had to run a facility where he had 20 people working underneath him at 19, 20 years old, he was totally comfortable and fine with it and had a lot of success.

So how much is that a challenge when some of these things actually play into some people's favor? Yeah, is it always something you need to fix or is this just something you need to understand better and deeper and like how to kind of utilize it more effectively? I love this question. And that's exactly it right there.

So this is a survival adaptation, the research shows. This is, it's important that we have this, right? A thousand years ago, if you're chilling in England or what became England and the Danes, the Vikings, we call them, sail in, burn your village to the ground, kill everybody you know, you run off into the forest and now you're gonna try to survive and you have to live in the forest or you get

enslaved and you have to fight for survival in the camp, then this kicks on. Nobody's going to help you. Nobody's coming to rescue you and you'll hear a lot of avoidant guys say, nobody's coming to help you. It's all you man. You got to do this and they're talking like that. That gets me excited when I hear that. Yeah, exactly. That's how messed up that is. Exactly, but it's a, it's avoidant behavior is, is a lone wolf survival mentality that clicks on when your environment says, nobody will give you oxytocin. No one's going to

hug you. No one's going to solve problems with you. It's you against the world. You better survive. So yes, there are huge adaptation benefits to this, right? You are resilient. You shut off a lot of your feelings. You don't, you don't even consider that you might have a way to feel better. So you just muscle down, muscle through. You get stronger, you get tougher. And the research is fascinating on this. When avoidant men click in to a community and they really connect with that community, then the community benefits from all their avoidant

behaviors because they're higher, they're very good at risk assessment. They're incredible, they're tracking risk 24 seven. They're always aware of it. They don't trust anybody, so they don't make bad deals usually, right? They're very alert and aware of newcomers and they track newcomers carefully so they don't

have new threats coming into the tribe. But, but to build this, that avoidant man has to be able to actually bond with his community and they have to bond with him. This is the problem a lot of business owners and a lot of executives do is, is the, the dopamine cortisol pathway of avoidant attachment, it helps you climb the mountain like this.

You have no drama on the way up. You don't let anyone get in your way. You are self-driven and you climb the mountain and then you get there. You're alone. And you're so alone and nobody's loyal to you because you haven't built relationships. They're loyal to the money you give them, but

they're loyal to a paycheck, but that's it. And then your wife says, you don't take care of me. You don't talk to me. You don't even love me. built relationships, they're loyal to the money you give them, but they're loyal to a paycheck, but that's it. And then your wife says, you don't take care of me. You don't talk to me. You don't even love me. And your kids have no relationship with you. This is why we have the midlife crisis here in America is avoidant men climbing, hitting, and then falling all the way back down.

That's exactly the problem right there. So you've got to fix it enough that you have additional options when you're up here at the top so that you can click into, from war mode into peace mode. Men have to have a peace mode they can go into or they will lose everything. What drove me into looking into it for myself,

aside from the challenges I had with my wife, more so was my challenges with my kids. And it wasn't I had big challenges, it was I came to the painful realization, was my challenges with my kids. And it wasn't, I had big challenges. It was, I came to the painful realization. I didn't know my kids. I didn't have a relationship with them. And so, you know, communicating with someone, they told me, you can only connect as deep with other people as you can connect with yourself.

And I was like a bomb going off. Cause like, well, I don't connect to myself at all. I just kind of moved forward. And so that's what drove me to look at this is like, if I want to have a relation with my kids, I got to be able to figure this out. Otherwise I'm just going to power through life forever and not ever develop those relationships. Do you know the biggest change I've seen for my avoidant guys and the avoidant fathers that come in?

And they ask me that they say, how do I connect my kids better? Right. And this might resonate with you. It might resonate with the audience at home. A lot of guys listening in fitness are usually in it because their serotonin is low and they don't know why. So they fix it through fitness first, and then

it opens the avenue to fix their relationships. Um, but one big problem is that avoidant men, they are so focused on risk and performance and improvement that they only ask their kids enough questions to solve problems and then get away. And avoid, a secure father is going to ask their kid questions because they're curious about their kid and they want to learn about their kid.

And that's the best way to learn about their children. Has that been something that you've learned is just being curious? Oh yeah, I'm great when shit hits the fan. But if nothing's hitting the fan, it's like, what do I say? How do I talk? What's going on? So it's been a work in progress, but it's been a lot, definitely a lot better.

And as you and I have talked, I know you're showing more curiosity with your kids. You're showing up with them. You're speaking to them. How are they growing as you're doing that? It's weird. You know, I have a relationship now with them that I didn't have before,

and I can see so much more potential, and I didn't know I was missing it. That's the part that is crazy, is I didn't know it wasn't there. There were clues, but had I not looked, I don't think I would have seen them. I mean. One thing, one thing I've heard a lot about

when I help avoidant men fix it is they start, because as you, as you diminish the cortisol in your system, right, your oxytocin receptors come back online and they're not being blocked. And the work from Dr. Sue Carter of the Kinsey Institute shows that as, if you're a kid and you'll get oxytocin, they'll shift into vasopressin receptors instead. But if you start get oxytocin, they'll shift into vasopressin receptors instead.

But if you start getting oxytocin, they shift back into oxytocin receptors. So then you're more primed for that. A lot of avoidant men freak out when they start forming deeper connections because it feels so weird. The oxytocin, it floods your system and you feel like a warmth in your chest.

It's confusing and it's love. Emotional, that's the word I use. How has that been for you as you felt more? It's okay now, but at first I was like, what the hell is wrong with me? Why do I feel like crying after time or feeling emotional? I don't like feeling this way because I feel vulnerable. You know, that was, I mean, to give you an example, uh, Adam, I mean, these guys will tell you, cause they've seen me go through some stuff.

We started the podcast. I went through a divorce after being married for 15 years. I'd walk in after, I mean, it's one of the most stressful things you could ever go through with kids and everything. I'd come in, they'd turn the camera on and boop, you know, mind pumps out on the mic, nothing you couldn't tell. You absolutely couldn't tell. And these guys would be like, that's so weird.

You could just turn, I didn't think twice about it, but really it was just this dysfunctional attachment I had developed as a kid that, you know, I had used to my favor until it didn't work anymore. Sal, are there things, not to turn this into the Sal interview, but I love the fact that he's being vulnerable and sharing this so we can talk. That never happened. Yeah, exactly.

Adam Bull and Joke. So I'm gonna go with you, bro. I'm gonna start crying, we're turning the mic off. I'm just curious, selfishly, since you've admitted that it's been a challenge to do that, are there certain practices that you've done to help that, or exercises, like a list of questions, I need to go through these, or are there ways

you've trained yourself to get better at that? It started, and I'd love your feedback on this, because this is your expertise, but it started with me identifying how I felt. That's really where it started. How am I feeling right now? Do I feel this? Where do, but it started with me identifying how I felt. That's really where it started. How am I feeling right now? Do I feel this? Where do I feel it?

So I would do exercises like. Like asking yourself, you needed to. Not just asking myself, because if I just asked myself what I feel, then my answer was always like, fine. Because you're numb. Yeah, fine. So okay, where do you feel this feeling?

Okay, you're upset. What do you mean by that? Where do you feel it? I don't know, and I'd have to sit there and like, I think I feel it in my chest. What does it feel like? Uh, a hole? What color is it? I'd have to like, I'd have to really identify and use, um, what's the term where you're, you're, uh, it starts with an S where you're feeling the body. Anyway, I would have to identify where it is on

my body, feel it, go into it, however uncomfortable it was, and then start to get good at it to the point where I could just start to feel things. Because if I couldn't feel, here's where it gets crazy. Again, I'd love your feedback. If I can't feel something with me, I cannot empathize with you when you feel something. And so when my kids would feel something, I could try to empathize. I could see that, but especially if it weren't strong signs, I couldn't tell.

This was a challenge with my wife. She's like, you can't tell that I'm whatever? I'm like, no, I thought you were okay. Do you know what else is so much worse? What drives marriages to really crumble with this? And I'm glad you brought this up, is when a wife asks a man who has more avoidant traits, what do you need from me?

What can I do for you? She's trying to be of service and she's trying to care for him and right, wives, that, that feminine desire to nurture, to love, to give. And he has no answers. And if, well, an avoidant man is going to say nothing. Nothing.

Why are you asking? It's all live. Well, but, but think about that with the brain chemistry we just went through, all he gets is cortisol and dopamine, right? So what she's asking is how can I help? And he goes, well, how could she possibly solve the problems in my life right now at work?

Well, she can't. Is there anything she can give me that's dopamine related? Nope. Well then, nope, nothing. Get away from me, thank you lady. More sex. Yeah, more sex. But even that, after the first year,

the novelty dopamine has worn off of sex. So guys have erection problems. I won't ask you about that. But they have erection problems. Thankfully we're good. Yeah, they have desire problems. They start saying, well, more lingerie, bring somebody in, let's watch videos.

Right. They're trying to build more dopamine to have arousal with her, usually with the wife even. Um, but, but what they're not understanding is she's saying, how can I help you get oxytocin? How can I bring your stress levels down permanently? How can I give you serotonin?

Serotonin is long-term real fulfillment. If dopamine is like a quick candy hit once in a while, like, and if that's all you're eating, that's what avoidant men are used to is I will eat nothing but candy every day. So I'm dopamine seeking 110. So what is, what is the, um, what is the play in that situation?

So again, we're just gonna keep messing with Sal here. That's fine. He's having this, he's, you know, uh, he's still working on, I'm trying to connect to my own feelings with that. Wife is trying to be supportive, comes up and says, hey, you know, what can I do to help or support you? And okay, he's in that moment,

even though he still hasn't really learned to connect to these feelings yet, are there things that you would coach him on, practice saying this or allow her to, like, what would you say to him? Two things. So I just released a course called How to love an

avoidant man for wives that are looking for tips on exactly how to build a marriage. But secretly it's actually for the guys. I mean, this will teach you about you. Like so many, so many guys watch it and they like, just like, Adam, this was me. And I'm like, yeah, it's so good. Follow it with your wife.

Follow it with her. Um, but there's two things you must do first, right? Before a man can open up and share that part of himself, he needs to actually have trust with her. That's the reason that avoidant men don't open up is because they don't believe it's possible to have trust with somebody. So they just tag everybody as a problem to be

solved instead of somebody to solve problems with you. So then she comes to you and she's like, how can I help you? And his brain says, she is a problem to be solved. She's trying to help me, but she's not actually going to help me. Now I have to solve her.

I will simply move her away from me because I don't have time for her feelings right now. And that's what he'll do. He'll just, and push her back like this. It doesn't even track. So that's number one is getting to a place where he's trusting her. Right.

And there's, there's, there's ways to do this. I can comment to this. So the way to help someone like this is your reaction needs to be really good when they finally do say that they need something. Because any reaction that seems a little bit like it's work or annoyance or I'm tired will only confirm the feeling that you have,

which is I better not ask anybody, which to me, this is how I explain it. It feels like I'm gonna cut my arm off to tell anybody I need help. Like I don't wanna cut my arm, I'm totally fine. I don't need, and you want me to ask that person for help, I'd rather go live in the street than ask that person. So then when you finally take the leap

and you say, hey listen, would you mind not doing that thing that you do, and you get a reaction that's anything but amazing, like oh, confirmed, it was a mistake, not gonna happen again. Am I hitting the nail on the head? Absolutely. Okay. So what I coach women on,

and most of them receive this language well, but I'll just put that out there. In that moment, one thing that the avoidant man needs to understand is that she's coming to him almost like an executive assistant. And what she's saying is not, how can I solve all your problems by being you? What she's saying is, how can I do something that will assist you in solving the problems you're already facing?

Can I take care of you in some capacity? Can I give you a boost? Can I give you a moment of rest? Can I give you a moment to recharge? Can I talk to somebody for you? Yeah. Can I peripherally help or can I simply enhance you in this moment? That's what she's really asking. So what the guy needs to understand is, well,

what does she, what can she actually offer? I recently hired a great assistant and before that I had never really had an assistant before. I didn't know what to do. So the first few weeks she was frustrated because I wouldn't give her tasks to do. And she was like, why are you paying me? Like you're going to fire me at some point

because you're giving me like four minutes a day of work and you're paying me for 40 hours a week. What are you doing? So I've had to learn to give her tasks and I've fire me at some point, because you're giving me like four minutes a day of work and you're paying me for 40 hours a week. What are you doing? So I've had to learn to give her tasks and I've actually started asking her, what can you do for me? Here's my problem. What can you do about this?

And she'll say, well, I can't solve that, but I can do all of these. I'm like, actually that would make my work, you know, 50% easier. Yeah, please do those things. So I've had to start asking that. That's one thing men need to ask their wife is, well, I don't know what you can do for me.

Here's the problems I'm facing right now. What do you think would be helpful? Here's the other thing that helped me quite a bit because it's still so hard for me to ask for help is my wife's got really good, well, not to say really good, but she's got much better at predicting what I need and then doing it. So she'll come to me and be like, you need to

go take a nap. No, I don't. I'm totally fine. Go take a nap right now. I she'll come to me and be like, you need to go take a nap. No I don't, I'm totally fine. Go take a nap right now, I'm taking over. And then like fine, then I'll go take a nap and come up and be like, wow, thank you for predicting that. How has she got better at predicting you? Has it been you opening up about things

so that she knows what's going on? It's been a lot of work and a little bit of that. It's still a huge struggle. It feels so awkward and strange for me to say I need anything at all. So here's what I'm going to tell you. Okay. I'm going to coach you just for a moment.

Micro coaching. Um, imagine your wife is your executive assistant and she is watching your performance go down into the ground and she's fluttering around trying to fix and trying to help. And she knows that your performance can go 300, 300% if she can step in and assist. And you keep telling her, no, no, no, no, no.

And you're not, you're not opening up to her. Choose to tactically open up to her selectively about things you're facing, challenges you're banging your head against, right? Problems you have, even just your brain chemistry and then spit ball with her and say, what can we do that would help me with this? What can you do?

And then in return, what can I do to enhance you? Imagine that she's your executive assistant in that capacity. Start utilizing her better, but from a mental health standpoint, from a performance standpoint, from a stress standpoint, start utilizing that. Can you, can you open up with her selectively under that context? Yeah, from a collaborative standpoint, it feels different. That's very different. Yeah.

And that's the goal. Now to get there, you have to make sure her goal is your goal and that you're actually unified on that. It can't be that her goal is this over here to get there, you have to make sure her goal is your goal and that you're actually unified on that. It can't be that her goal is this over here to get everything from me and do no work. And my goal is over here to take care of the family. That's what most guys think.

Hers is to minimize her stress. Mine is to minimize our stress. You've got to get it together. Our goals are the same and she's working directly under me. Now we're a team and we can unify. Very interesting. Now are there common challenges

that, so, so Sal, let's say he, he accomplished this and he gets there. What are some of the common challenges that the, that the women have with receiving that? Like in that situation, like I know you don't have Jessica in front of you, you don't know what her attachments are, whatever that, but just, are there common things that if that, you know, okay, he did really good at that, but then, ah, she dropped the ball here or she did this.

Like what happens in that situation? Three problems. Okay. I'm going to warn you right now. Three problems. Number one, that the absolute death, it's not always, but it's usually the death is if the woman is so angry and resentful through years

that she's not willing to do the work with you. She demands everything from you in the first place. Sounds like your wife is incredible. She's not anywhere near that. She's very growth minded. So good, good, good. But that's the death is the overwhelming resentment. She's not anywhere near that. She's very growth minded, so. Good, good, good, but that's the death,

is the overwhelming resentment. She's already fed up, it's been years. Too late. Correct. I can usually help some couples come back from that, but you gotta work with the wife quite a bit to get hope on board and really get something going there to get that going. It's possible, but it's hard.

Number two is if she does drop the ball, and then she spirals out into this endless process of self blame and self hatred, where she just launches into it and he's trying to pull her back. And then he says, wow, you're, you really are a problem to solve. I can't even trust you with things because you spiral out. So if that's the problem, she's got to fix her anxious attachment, right? Fix the self blame, fix the self-hatred.

Do avoidant attachment people tend to attract anxious attachment? Almost always. Almost always. Yeah. Yeah. Good. And that's, unfortunately, there's two different types of avoidant women as well. And some of them will work with you and some of them will work against you, especially

through the years. They get much, much worse. Wow. Almost always. So the wife that kind of spirals out, the second one right there, because I totally understand what's going on the first one. Like that wife is, she's been trying for a decade and it's got nowhere. And she's now at a point where it's like, you got to come all the way this way.

Yeah, because I'm not moving anymore. So the second one that spirals out, like, how does he navigate that? Like, so he's got the wife that all of a sudden starts, oh, it's all my fault that you're feeling this way. Like that's what you're describing. So keep in mind when we break as children, when we break as children, avoidant men get almost no oxytocin at all. So they don't even know that there is a way to feel loved,

nurtured, bonded, connected. They don't have any of that at all. So they don't know what it's like to have someone come and flood them with warmth and love and feelings. Anxious people, they had somebody come and flood them with warmth and love and feelings. Anxious people, they had somebody come and flood them with warmth and love and feelings and then take it away in some capacity. Then they got it again. Then it went away again. Then they got it again. So it was unpredictable.

So it is more addictive than heroin. It is actually more addictive than heroin. I've worked with heroin addicts extensively through the years and people who are anxiously attached and they've told me time and again, Adam, the oxytocin, the withdrawals are so much worse than heroin withdrawal. Wow. Cause at least heroin withdrawals will go away. Oxytocin withdrawals never go away. They're there for your entire life.

And then the child blames themself and says, I must be doing something to make that person take this away from me. So then they try to figure out how do I please other people. By the way, oftentimes it's, they did nothing. It's that the parent themselves either has an issue with alcohol or their own challenges, or they're there when the kid is sick and they're totally there.

But now the kid's fine, neglect, you're fine, do your own thing. So it feels like they pulled away. So it's not necessarily that the kid, it's oftentimes a kid did nothing, but they're, they're, they're, they're, we're wired as children to think that it's our fault. Is it stronger because you can associate it with an actual person in a relationship versus like just a substance?

That's a big piece too, but it's also stronger because heroin withdrawals at least have a time limit. Oxytocin is 40, 50, 60 years. I've worked with people in their 70s who are still battling oxytocin massive addictions from the first three years of their life. Wow. Wow.

It's overwhelming. Okay. So we, so let's talk about, we said anxious attachment, so avoidant attachment. Let's describe that real quick and then let's move into the one they tend to attract or whatever, the other side, which is anxious. So, well, to even have this conversation, you

guys, I want to go kind of a weird place. Is that cool? Go for it. Go for it. So we have all these conversations about attachment styles, right? People are picking them up like they're astrology signs and stuff like that. Right?

It's so frustrating. So when they were first formed way back in the day, back in the fifties, it was just this brand new theory and, and Bowlby back then created, right? Avoidant, dismissive avoidant, preoccupied, anxious, and then this blend of the two, anxious-avoidant, and they didn't, or disorganized style, cannot be neatly organized in either one.

And they've had some updates since then where they've talked a little bit more about different types as well and changes, but we haven't really updated the attachment styles to actually look like what they look like today and have a more meaningful discussion. So a lot of avoidant men, they go online, they

hear about avoidant attachment. They're like, Oh, I wonder if I have that. And they go online and all they hear is this horrible, like shrieking hate on the internet about how they're horrible monsters. They're manipulative and evil and no one should, you know, put them on an island somewhere and then nuke that island is a lot of what we hear.

It's terrible. And so I've broken it down more into seven attachment styles that we really need to understand that are more distinct for people. And it's not who you will always be to your question earlier, these are adaptations that you've fallen into as a child and you can grow and become more secure over time as you want to.

We could even make that an eighth category earned secure, where you've earned that security. But really quick, we'll flash through them. Okay. A secure attachment. Okay. You were born in a family that was going to raise you properly and nurture you, care for you, and at

least just meet your needs. You're going to have a conversation when there's a problem. Okay. You're stressed out. We talk about it. We solve it together as a family. That is secure attachment.

Okay. You have earned secure where you can become secure through the years. Okay. Those are the two we need to understand there. Avoidant, okay, breaks down into two types. One, not dismissive avoidant, but let's, let's say ethical avoidant, more like you, Sal.

Right. Avoidant, but not hurting other people, taking care of other people, taking on responsibility, being honest and having integrity, but very much distancing from other people because other people cannot be trusted. There's manipulative avoidant. I will never trust other people, and they're actually probably bad people,

and most people are bad people, and I will never trust them, but I'm gonna make sure that I manage other people so they have manipulative behaviors. They may flood them with great feelings when they meet them. They might say things they don't mean. They might say, yeah, yeah, yeah, babe, don't worry, but I'll take care of it, just to shut her down that moment.

They pretend to change more manipulative behaviors. This is a fraction of the avoidant people in the world, but they get classified as all of the avoidant people, which is why we need to break them out into two. By the way, could it also be that someone's not perfectly in one or the other? No, yeah, it's much more of a spectrum. Yeah, because people are individuals, and I just find that even with fitness it's like, okay.

Absolutely, you've got an ethical avoidant on this side, more manipulative avoidant on this side, and you slide down that spectrum. Got it. When you hear about narcissists now, it's not narcissistic personality disorder, it's somebody further on the manipulative spectrum of the avoidant behavior, really. And then on the other side, you've got anxious attachment, oxytocin addicts who are like flowers waiting for a bee to come pollinate them with oxytocin and feelings.

They wait around for avoidant people to come make them feel safe and secure and loved, and then they just wait and wait and wait, and they wait for other people to solve their problems. You've got the more nurturing side, the ethical anxious or the nurturing anxious is what I call it all the way down to what we call the toxic anxious. Very manipulative, resentful, nice guy syndrome. You've heard Dr. Robert Glover talk about that. He's a good friend. Dr. Robert Glover talks about nice guy syndrome down here

where he's not so nice after a while, right? Because now you owe him all the things that he has done, 10 nice things for you, now you owe him this debt. That is more the toxic side. The other piece is what we call disorganized style. Okay, it's the blend of the two. You can't just organize them. You're anxious on the inside, you're avoidant on the outside. This is almost like the baby version

of borderline personality disorder, if you wanna think about it that way. But there's two different types of this, or we call it fearful avoidant. Two types of fearful avoidant. One is what we call the loud fearful avoidant, right? I'm anxious on the inside and avoidant on the outside and I'm just going to crack open and explode everywhere. And when somebody gets too close to me, first I endlessly desperately crave the connection

with other people and I'm out there pleasing and connecting and bonding, but once I get it, I freak out and I run screaming the other direction. I'll jump out, you know, I marry you, we get into our house, then I freak out. So I set the other direction. I'll jump out, you know, I marry you, we get into our house, then I freak out, so I set the house on fire and jump out the window, but then I regret what I did, so I kick in the door and then I rescue you and now you owe me for rescuing you from that fire.

But now the pressure's on, so I'm gonna jump both of us out the window and we'll build a new house and it's just this wild chaos. And they're the ones that drive a lot of chaos in relationships, but they feel it more than anybody does. But there's also this one that nobody talks about. I don't think anybody's really caught onto this yet.

Okay. This is the, another disorganized style, what I call quiet disorganized. They look like avoidant people on the outside. They're very avoidant. They're very quiet, but on the inside they have this core of like, you know, if anybody really knew me, they know that I'm not good enough.

Just on the inside, they don't core of like, you know, if anybody really knew me, they know that I'm not good enough. Just on the inside, they don't ever let anybody ever hear about it. And they, they, they look like, they almost look secure when they take attachment quizzes and things like that, they actually look secure. They get secure ratings. I am fully secure. I am good.

I don't think other people are bad. You know, I, I acknowledge that I could have some of the problems. It might be me, but I'm going to be kind and consider it with other people, but keep everybody at arm's length. And they answer questions so perfectly and their mental health is so amazing, but they are on the inside. They don't really believe that they are worthy of love and they keep

everybody right about here. That's quiet, disorganized. Oh, interesting. You just said that. So I feel almost as if I'm maybe in that category because one of my big issues for me at least, and hopefully this resonates with people watching and listening to this right now is I often, what makes me feel more secure is when I'm doing things or giving things or teaching things to other people, I feel like I'm good enough

if I can provide you with this great value and if I can't and I don't, you're not gonna like me. Is it possible, Sal, is such a mess, he's all of them? Well that's what the disorganized category is for, is like, well you're a collection of other things. I'm an overachiever. But like the quiet, disorganized, absolutely.

They're highly productive people. They're some of the most productive people in society. They have giant podcasts and shows and things like that. They're big celebrities, big entertainers, big teachers, big nurturers, and they don't, they're not the ones secretly on the back end hurting people and doing terrible things. They live quiet lives of ethical consideration,

but deep, deep loneliness. Yeah, and keeping people at arm's length, or distance is an interesting one for me, because I always feel a little bit like, nobody really knows me 100%, and I don't know how to allow people to do that. So let's talk about, how does somebody help identify that they may be in one of these other tests that they can take or, and then where do they go from there?

What are the first steps? And they look similar for all of them. Is it the same first steps or is it all different? You know, that's a great question. I get, I get so many coaching clients who come in and they say, Adam, I'm not sure my attachments, I've taken this quiz, it said this, I've taken that quiz, it says this, and they can change based on what relationship you're thinking about, right? A relationship with a coworker is different from a lover or a child, with your child or whoever it may be.

So you're going to change and reflect based on the intensity and the perceived pressure in that relationship and the risks that you're taking in that relationship. It's going to be very different. So it depends what relationship you're thinking about when you take those quizzes. I usually just run them through that simple test that I just gave you guys a moment ago, but I say, how do you feel about yourself?

Do you feel that you are worthy of love? Or do you feel like there's something lacking in you? And how do you feel about other people? Do you think that you can trust them or some people? Or do you think you can never trust anybody, right? And it's not that they're bad people, but nobody will ever overcome the temptations and stress to

ever really be ethical like you will. And you have to do everything alone. And that usually is the number one test we got to start with. Now, Adam, some of this requires a certain level of self-awareness, but let's just say someone doesn't possess that. Are there signs in their life that they can look at and go, uh, maybe I should look at these things.

Consistent drama. Yeah. Could it be bad or, you know, could it, yeah, exactly. Could it be bad relationship? Like what are some signs? Yeah. If you, if you are always trading out relationships for new people, because something goes wrong, whether it's you or the other people, if you are always

stressed out by your relationships, if you're having a hard time sleeping at night, tossing and turning, and you're thinking about what to say to some people the next day, and that happens a lot, right? Your shower thoughts are always about planning out your battle strategies for communication. If you're always thinking about how you're going to manage other people in situations to make sure that they're going to do the right thing instead of just thinking, oh, I should talk to them so that they will do the right thing, right? If you are always trying to get one step ahead of other people because you think that that's do the right thing instead of just thinking, oh, I should talk to them so that they will do the right thing. Right? If you are always trying to get one step ahead

of other people because you think that that's the only way to get your needs met. If you don't even know what your needs are in relationships, if you are always frustrated with partners, if you feel like after the first year of romantic relationships, everything falls apart and there's no passion and no joy and no connection anymore. If you are endlessly looking for that next fix and being dopamine dependent,

if you're just chasing good feelings because you don't know how to build a fulfilling life, big, big indicators that you're one of those 50% of people with attachment issues. Is there like an even split on all these attachments or do we find that there's a greater percentage of women that are these attachments, a greater percentage of men are these attachments? I love this question. So the research on the percentage numbers of attachment issues for men and women is fascinating.

The research shows that about 50% of people have attachment issues, 25% have avoidant attachment, 20% have anxious and about 5% have the disorganized blend of the two. And of the avoidant people, mostly men, primarily men have this. Of anxious attachment, primarily women have this. So what's fascinating is avoidant men, we don't have a name for them.

They're just a tough guy who's self-focused. And anxious women, we don't have a name for them. They're just shy and a little insecure. Now, anxious men, nice guys, right? And avoidant women, well, the B word, right, is what we use for that usually is what people will call them. So we have names for the opposite because it's so in tune with feminine nature to be more anxious and male nature to be more lone wolf.

Is it also, yeah, I was going to say, it might be a combination of both, right? Nature and nurture, because as be a combination of both, right? Nature and nurture because as parents, you're taught, your son is upset or crying, well, he's probably gotta toughen up a little bit. Your daughter, go rest for her, make sure she's okay, make sure everything's fine.

And then even the toys that we play, so it's almost like nature drives us in one way, then nurture just solidifies the hell out of it. Let's get even deeper than that. So this is not, attachment issues are not just a survival adaptation of that individual. It's a response to environmental trauma. Your parents had trauma, your network had trauma, your grandparents are not there to fix it. Your aunts and uncles are not there to fix it.

Your cousins are not there to help you fix it. Once upon a time, a hundred years ago, you would be in a network of 30, 40, 50 people that would help somebody in there would help you build secure attachment. And you would have exceptions to the solutions and the problems that you have right now. You grew up in a tiny family that wasn't as connected as it should be in a village that

wasn't as connected or a network or a community, or in a religion or in whatever. You didn't have the connections that would have fixed you. We have broken all of the safety nets we should have had to not have these problems. Now you are in such an extreme environment, your brain thinks that the Vikings burned your village to the ground and you are now surviving alone in the woods with a pointy stick and you have to make it work.

That's what your brain thinks. Wow. Okay. So what are some, because we're all fathers and one thing that we all have in common is we're very at the top of our list of priorities is really raising our kids right. Being good fathers, we talk about our kids with each other all the time. Are there common mistakes good willing parents, moms, dads can make that can lead to some of these issues? Because I think there's the obvious stuff, you know, you beat your kids, you yell at them,

you're abusing drugs or whatever. But what are some common things that good willing people do that they don't even think about? Like, oh my God, I didn't realize that that could cause some of these issues. In all my clinical experience, first as a licensed marriage and family therapist, now as an attachment coach,

the number one problem I've seen parents make with their children that screws them up is not something they do, it's something that they fail to do. The problem is that with healthy, secure families, the skills they have to bring problems up with their children, to invite them into those conversations, to say, you can talk to me about these things, to ask those curious questions

and then resolve the issues together, that is what's missing. So it's not just the hurtful things you're trying not to do, it's the pieces you're missing as you're struggling to try to be a good parent. The more that you have those conversations and invite your children and educate them on how to speak with you and how to work with you, that's going to be the biggest driving factor. How important do you think it is to have a, you mentioned like, you know, we evolved originally with these villages of 40 or 50 where we'd all help each other out.

And today, you know, the modern family looks a lot different. A lot of families are isolated. How important is that to try and foster that? So like that community and more people. This is a really interesting question for me because I come from that isolated family and I've try and foster that community and more people. This is a really interesting question for me because I come from that isolated family

and I've married into this giant family where we do things three times a week all together. And I remember when I didn't have a kid and we were just dating, how much of a struggle this was for me. Now having a son, it has completely flipped for me. Like I have so much appreciation for what I see from that.

Can I ask you something very, very important? Yeah. How hard is it in that family structure to keep secrets about how you feel and the stress you're under, and for you to just sit there and boil in stress for five years? How hard is that?

Everyone poking at you. That was, of all the things that I've ever been challenged with relationship wise, the most difficult thing was her being raised this way and me being on the opposite of the spectrum and then trying to blend that. I have to honestly say it wasn't until, which was not till almost what, 10 years later,

nine years later when we had our son, did that all make sense to me and like become actually easy for me. But up into that point, it was painful. It's hard to keep secrets, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No, they're, and their family is this extreme on that. Like where mom talks openly, we'd be at a dinner table with 20 people and it's not weird for you know, the son or daughter-in-law to be talking about their sex life and just like, it was a very open family like that and I was just like, what the fuck am I doing here?

But are problems getting solved? Are they taking care of each other? Yes. Right, if somebody was horribly depressed, would somebody notice? I mean, that's how close in it they are, that if somebody, if you sense that somebody in the family is going through something, we call a family meeting.

They call a family, everybody gets together and talks it out and supports each other and goes, oh, you know what, so and so lost their job. We're all over there helping out with dinner. We're doing, like, it's crazy. And this right here is what's missing in modern parenting and modern families is, number one, you're down to just a stressed out mom and dad

who are both working themselves to death anyway, so they maybe have an hour with the kids, and they're probably in the car driving to and from soccer practice, eating a granola bar really quick, so they don't even see the kid that day. So you have that, but we're left alone. And even well-intentioned parents say,

well, if they're having a problem, they'll come talk to me. I'll let them come talk to me. I'll let them come at their own pace and they let five years go by before they have that conversation. Whereas how long do you guys get? Is it four minutes? Yes, it's literally that crazy. And I honestly did not, it was, and then for me being the opposite,

boy was that difficult for me to reconcile until I had a son and then now look from the father's perspective and family and it just blew my mind. What did that feel like when they were trying to give you that love and give you that nurturing? Did it feel like an intrusion attack? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it was, you know, leave me alone or how dare you think you know better than me. Like, a lot of that bullshit was going on inside my head like that. Like, you're the one who you should be asking me for help. What are we, what am I? Like that was like my attitude internally, right? I'm not saying that,

but internally that's what's going on in my head. Like, had a chip even about it like it was it was interesting and then really interesting to see that get shattered to have a son and then go like whoa this is so cool that I have this support like that and now as a father you go oh it makes me emotional just thinking about like how powerful that is but then also also like, God, how much, uh, that could have destroyed potentially our marriage relationship had that not evolved that way because it was a constant battle when she sees that as normal that the family, we're doing things with the family three times a week. I see that as like, Oh my God, that's overly invasive into my, my life and my privacy. So it was,

it was quite the struggle until we had a kid and then, but now I see it and I also see, God, that has to be, I have friends that they don't have that. And I think, man, because then there's another layer to that that you know as a father, a parent in a relationship, it's so important that in a marriage, especially with kids, that you keep that romance alive and that relationship with your partner, that the two of you are connected. And it's really easy when you sort of have kids to divide and conquer and split the responsibilities because you have no

support and help out. Where we totally have that. Like Katrina and I travel by ourselves all the time, dates at least once or twice a week, every week like all the time. And I don't feel like we're just leaving our son because he's with his aunt, his uncle, his cousin, his and he loves to go over play with him. He's excited to go there so I don't feel like I'm dumping him or it's a and I can see now like God if I didn't have that you know we wouldn't be doing all those things which wouldn't make us have a really strong relationship. Our son might feel like you know if we were just dropping him off at say the nanny or

the babysitter or somebody who he's not excited to go be around. So it's wild. It's been a wild journey to, to, to be on one side of that spectrum and then feel like I've come the other side. But I can see how that can be such a challenge for other people that have been in that, that same, same position.

I love, I love that we're having this conversation because the first time I get came on your guys' show, you guys have been so generous having me on a bunch of times. Thank you. Um, but the first time I was on the show and then through that mini series that we're having this conversation because the first time I came on your guys' show, you guys have been so generous having me on a bunch of times, thank you. Um, but the first time I was on the show and then through that mini series that we did, the comment sections were so full of women coming in and saying,

I wish my husband understood more about this. I wish he wanted to know more about this. I wish that he at least would just sense that there's a different way for us to be relating together. And you guys are experiencing that right now. You guys are like, no, I found it. Both of you have said, I didn't understand it before.

I was resistant. I thought this was, I'll put words in your mouth, I thought this was stupid. I thought it was crap. I thought you were just trying to give me your feelings and unload on me. And now both of you have found that richness, that connection. You know that I tell everyone, so I've never shared this with you, but so what have we done? 2,500 episodes or something like that were up there. Katrina and I have never sat and watched a

mind pump episode together, except for the episode that you did because it was so impactful on it. And I can't stress enough how important that is for couples just to understand who each of each one is. It makes every the communication part and those challenges so much easier. So I've sent that episode to every couple that I know and be like, you can't watch this alone. You have to watch this with your partner.

So you both get an understanding of where you're at because it makes going through this so much easier when you just at least understand where the other person is coming from. I want to comment. I want to back up a little bit and comment more on what you just at least understand where the other person is coming from. You know, I want to comment, I want to back up a little bit and comment more on what you guys are talking about where, you know, one challenge, this is something that, you know, I was guilty of where there would be a tension in the house or something going on

and you don't think the kids notice. So you don't say anything about it. And you're just like, well, they're fine, they're fine. Even though there's like this, the things are weird and different, but they're little. They don't know anything. They don't say anything. So they must be okay. That could probably teach them to deny reality

or their feelings. Am I, am I correct? Oh man, it's one of the worst things in the world to assume your kids are so stupid and so oblivious that they can't sense the overwhelming stress. They know, they, they track, I've got five kids, five kids and they watch me like a hawk. They watch everything I do.

That's why I'm slimming down. Cause they're, they're like, my old son said, dad, you're, you're fat. And I was like, and I said, and I said, dudes, you're right. And daddy's fixing and daddy's going to have to fix that. Cause that's not how daddy wants to be.

And he's like, all right. And so I'm slimming down. He's like, daddy, you get, you're getting thinner and I'm like, yep, I'm getting, I'm getting jacked. I'm going to, all right. And so I'm slimming down. He's like, daddy, you're getting thinner. And I'm like, yep, I'm getting jacked. I'm going to be here. I said, I'm going to make your life hell for a long time, buddy. I'm going to follow you around everywhere. And he said, good.

So they watch everything. They watch everything, you guys. So to say, oh no, my kids, I fight with my wife, or we don't fight. We don't do anything. We don't speak. We don't touch. They're looking at all the things that are missing too. Like daddy never holds mom's hand,

daddy never sits with mommy, mommy and daddy sit in different rooms. So my wife is really good at this, right? So we have little ones, and you think a three year old, what is a three, a three and a half year old, what do you know? But there'll be a tension or something, and she'll go to him and be like,

I know you've noticed that mom and dad seem a little different, we had an argument, everything's fine, we love you, has nothing to do with you. We love each other. And I thought that was so silly. I'm like, why are you telling him? He doesn't even notice.

All you're doing is bringing it up and making him realize. But more and more I realized he might not even be able to articulate what he feels, but he feels something. And so what ends up happening, if you don't help co-regulate or do that with them, is they just learn to like, I just guess this is it, okay?

I guess things are weird and I gotta ignore it. Or the worst case, they start to adopt that as normalcy and so then they end up seeking that in relationships. You were saying that with your house when you were growing up. Yeah, yeah, I mean you see that with our, so there's a divide in the four kids in our house of the two oldest and the two youngest,

there's a 10 year gap between us. And the youngest, they don't have a lot of memories of the crazy verbal physical abuse that was going on because they were so little. But what you see now in their relationship as adults is they've now adopted relationships like that because even though they weren't even old enough to communicate and talk, that is normalcy. They felt it, they heard it. They were- There was never a process to talk about it. Yeah, exactly. They were a part of that energy. And yet luckily, the two older ones, me and my

sister, we were old enough and past age to recognize like, this isn't good behavior, this isn't normal. So we went the opposite in the spectrum, right? So we overcorrected the other way of like, I want nothing to do with anybody who's like that. But that's an example of how when you think they're so young and you don't talk about it and you think, because they don't even, and even as adults, they would tell you like, yeah, I don't remember mom and dad really fighting on, but trust me, I remember. Their central nervous system. I remember, I remember holding you and things were getting crazy and screaming. So you were absolutely were there and you've processed that probably as a normal, normal behavior.

I have one exercise I do with people that tell me, you know, I don't think my kids experience it. Do you want me to do it with you guys right now? Sure, yeah. So imagine that you guys are in the corporate sector, okay? You have a set of skills. You can only ever work for one company. No other company in the world will ever hire you, just this one company, okay? And it's a good company at first. You think it's pretty good, but there's two co-founders in this company.

And all of a sudden, you kind of just notice a lot of tension. They don't speak as much all of a sudden. They're not spending as much time in the same room. One of them onto the room, the other one just walks right out. If they're in the same presence, they don't speak to each other, they're on their phones all the time. You have very cold connection between them. Very few words are ever spoken between those two. You notice that they're siloing up and solving problems completely on their own. Sometimes the solutions coming down the pipeline are opposite.

So you'll warrant one thing from this guy and one thing from that co-founder completely opposite from each other and you're having to try to figure out what to do and you're getting pushback from each one of them about not following that set of rules or that set of rules. It's just this endless, just endless cold war between the two of them.

I bet you guys are going to notice, right? If your job's on the line, your career's on the line, you can't get out of this company, it's your only option. You're going to notice a lot, but you're probably not going to say anything. You're not going to march into the boss's office, bang on the door and demand that they start fixing

their problems because you're going to get fired then too, you're afraid. And you probably are going to desperately try to figure out how to survive in this environment. This is where attachment forms as a child. You notice as an employee, you're going to notice. So what are the things you want those bosses to do? Well, number one, you want them to fix their problems and be grownups and learn how to have

a conversation with each other so that they can manage this company. That's their responsibility. But number two, if it's going on, you'd probably like them to have a meeting with you and say, Hey guys, you've probably noticed this and this, right? Here's what this means. And here's our action plan going forward. Most people don't do that until they're like, all right, kids, we're getting a divorce.

Here's what that means. And you're like, why did that happen? Well, you know, sometimes love just isn't enough and people just don't solve problems. So who cares? You know what? You're going to get two Xboxes, one for each house. Isn't that great buddy?

And that's what we tell our kids nowadays instead of like, Hey, here's some challenge, like your wife's doing. Here's some challenges we're having, but you know what? Don't worry about it. The company's not going under. It's okay. We are going to fix it. We're both good co-founders.

We're not mad at each other. We don't hate each other. We're just disagreeing. We will come through it. We will update you when we come through it. We'll update you on what the new plan is going to be. Okay. Thank you so much.

I'm going to go home and rest. That's going to be amazing. Thank you so much. Totally. Totally. You know, let's talk a little bit about dismissing feelings. This was a big one for me and my wife and I would struggle with this because this is my nature.

My nature is kid gets hurt, kid does this, you're fine, you're fine, get up, no big deal, keep going. This is how I pep talk, this is like whatever. And she's very much like whatever they're feeling is real to them. We have to acknowledge it, allow them, and help co-regulate with them.

And I didn't understand that for a long time until I started to look at my own upbringing. I have a big connected family, very big, very connected family, but the way we support each other is very much show up, help, and then you're good, you can do this, keep moving. We're good, we're strong, you can do this. And there's been some success with that,

but a lot of it's also been like, I don't feel anything. I'm gonna deny this stuff. So let's talk about that a little bit with parenting. You have kids, they're feeling something, and maybe it makes you uncomfortable. They're crying, they're tantruming, they're whatever. How should you handle that to help that kid develop a more secure attachment versus one that's not so secure?

Yeah, just keep in mind, all of our pain thresholds are different based on what we've experienced so far. So you might look at your kid and say, oh, your favorite toy broke. Look, it's just a stupid toy. Who cares about it? Shut up. I'll give you something to cry about, right? I'll give you something to cry about is one we hear a lot. Um, but to them, it's everything to them.

It's a devastating loss to them. It's, it's the most pain they've ever felt in their life. And that moment you're like, I don't care. I don't care is what they hear. They don't hear you're strong. You can handle this. They hear, I don't care. So you actually have to articulate, you know strong, you can handle this. They hear, I don't care.

So you actually have to articulate, you know what? You get down on their level. This is what I do with my son. He's seven and a half. I get down on his level and I say, look, buddy, you know what? I hear where you're coming from. This is something scary, right? It hurts.

I get that. I will tell you from my experience that this is something you can get through. This isn't something that you're going to need to cry about. But right now you're feeling it. I get that, cool. What do you want to do about that? And how can I help you? I move him into the solution mode, right?

I don't dismiss, I say, look, it's big for you, it's not going to be big later, but what are you feeling and how can, what can we do about that and how can I assist you? And he's like, well, I just, I want this and this and I, you know, I wish this. And I say, okay, buddy, well, these we can't do about that and how can I assist you?" And he's like, well, I just, I want this and this and I, you know, I wish this. And I say, okay, buddy, well, these we can't do. These are really not things we can, we can't

undo what has been done. We can't unbreak this toy. We can try to fix it, right? Or we can try to do this. You can try to earn another one, right? If you want, maybe it's replaceable, maybe it's not, if it's not, hey, we're going to have to live with it.

Let's take care of this. What can we do to kind of solve this problem? Start, start thinking about solutions. And it with it. Let's take care of this. What can we do to kind of solve this problem? Start thinking about solutions. And it gets him out of the emotional side of his brain and it kind of diminishes. When you validate feelings, it decreases the agitation there. Is this where the whole classic, we've all heard this, right? Wife comes to the husband, she wants to tell her problems. Husband is like, I'll solve it.

Let's fix it. Wife is like, I don't want you to fix it. I just want to talk. Husband was like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking? This is a problem. Let's fix it. Wife is like, I don't want you to fix it, I just wanna talk. Husband's like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking? This is a problem, let's fix it. Is that where it comes from? Avoidant versus anxious?

Well, it's even just the different sides of the brain. If we are agitated and stressed out and have feelings, our emotions are sky high, but our logical brain is actually diminished. So we have to bring the cortisol and stress down enough through feelings and nurturing and accepting to help that person through oxytocin and serotonin feel calmer.

This is how you build secure attachment with a kid or how you fix your attachment as well. You feel calmer and then as you do that, your logical brain reengages. And then you can start thinking about solutions. So most wives come to their husband, emotionally agitated and he's like, fix it, fix it, fix it.

He's using this brain and she's over here. She says, no, no, no, no, I need, I need to feel comforted, I need to feel loved, I need to feel cared for. So then as she feels good, her logical brain reconnects and then she can just solve the problem on her own. She's wanting this action from her husband.

This is the problem. The problem isn't what she's talking about. The problem is the agitation. Oh, man. Help your wife feel loved and cared for so her brain calms down. And then she can start talking about solutions. Same thing with your kids.

Bring your brain, help them bring their brain down, but then get them re-engaged into solutions. But it's the same thing with you, Sal. If you're stressed out and you try to jump straight into solutions, no, no, no, no, no. You're going to be thinking with this brain. Maximize pleasure, minimize pain, maximize pleasure, minimize pain for the next five seconds.

That's this brain. So then you're like, fix it, fix it. And you're going to miss all the solutions that are actually going to be long-term beneficial because you're stressed out. Because you're fixing the stress immediately. So when your wife comes to you and says, how can I help you? What she's actually saying is how can I help reduce your stress on this brain so your long-term thinking clicks into place so that you can go out

into the world with long-term thinking and solution focus. That's what a wife can do for you, is bring your chronic agitation down and make you smarter with this brain. That's what a wife can do. Wow. Is it common for, I would imagine man, more so, but is it common for someone to be afraid I would imagine man more so, but is it common for someone to be afraid of working on these things because like we said in the beginning episode, well those traits are what made me successful. If I fix this, am I going to all of a sudden be not successful?

Am I not going to be able to achieve things? All the time. My biggest coaching clients, they come in to me. Adam, you know, I built this $100 million business. I don't want to lose that edge. I don't want to turn into a soggy crying mess. Is that really my only other option? And I say, no, man. But imagine this. this hundred million dollar business. I don't want to lose that edge. I don't want to turn into a soggy, crying mess. Is that really my only other option?

And I say, no, man, but imagine this, right? You're, you're in war mode all the time, right? You're out in the world. You're battling, you got your armor, your spear, blood covered. You come home to your family, you knock on, you open the door, you walk in with your blood covered armor and spear. You hug your wife and kids. You walk in, you sit at the dinner table and you're trying to eat with a fork in this hand,

still armored up with your spear and covered in blood. Then you go and you sit and you read a story to your kids, still covered in blood, holding your spear. Then you go to bed and you make love to your wife, so maybe it hinges open, I don't know, but you're still in your armor and your spear. And then you lay there in bed all night, stressed out, just waiting for the dawn.

And then you sit up in the morning, you eat breakfast, brush your teeth. Now you go back out to, no, that doesn't work. Yeah. Right. You come home, you take off your armor, you put down your spear, you wash up, now you're ready and you're in peace mode.

That's the goal. It's not, it's not to destroy your armor and your spear out there for war mode. It's to give you that second mode to click into so you can refresh so that your brain works better the next day. You don't just go from war to war to war, you rest, then you get ready and you go out again.

That's the goal here, is to build peace mode for you and your family. I love giving the audience tactical things to do to help with things like that. I've found for myself actually changing my outfit, literally. Does that. So I come home, this is the, this is what I wore to work,

and I could be in the heat of a phone call, get inside or get to my driveway, stop for a second, decompress, and as soon as I walk in, hug and kiss the wife and kid, and then go straight upstairs, change into my comfy sweats, my dad outfit, right? And that's, helps me get into that mode.

I think that's a good exercise. Now, I wanna try and sell this really well to the guy who's still, cause I know me five years ago, and I'm gonna hear this and be like, yeah, well, I still wanna do war really well. What you're essentially saying is, you'll be better at war if you have that peace time.

Correct. So you're gonna be better at what you think you're so good at now, just by working on these things, not worse. Correct. Okay, good. And again, I want to sell it because I know this, I was like this, like, had you told me all this stuff?

Like, nah, I'm not letting go. It's a superpower. Think of 20,000 years ago before the Neolithic Revolution, before we had agriculture. The four of us sitting here, we would be hunting together. We'd be chasing, we'd be teaching each other how to use spears, make spears, make tools, make weapons. Then we'd all go out on the plains and we'd hunt some animal together. And if we didn't perform well together, the animals would kill us. One of us would die. Who's going to die today, right? But if we keep surviving, we keep driving together, we form that vasopressin bond.

We can at least work together in stress environments to solve stress together. So now we have vasopressin. But then we go back to camp, right? We drag the mammoth by his trunk back to the camp. We start dissecting him, but what do we do at camp? We don't just sit there and refuse to make eye contact and not speak to each other. Vasopressin opens up the desire because it says, these men are my allies. They're my brothers.

Now what am I going to do? I'm going to sit with you guys. We're going to drink a little bit around the fire. We're going to tell stories. We're going to open up and say, hey, can I tell you you did great on that last thing, but here's something you could improve and do different. And we can say, hey, so how are you doing? Your family's doing great.

Okay, you're fighting with your wife. Your kid is off sick or whatever. Let's talk about that, man. Hey, let's beef you up a little bit. Let's encourage you. Hey, man, give me a hug. We're all good. It opens up the pathways for additional bonding.

So then we have high oxytocin, right? Which then gives us high GABA, right? So our cortisol goes down. So tomorrow when we're on the hunt, our stress levels are lower and we're tactical and we're thinking calmer on that side of the brain. And tomorrow, tonight, we've rested well through high GABA. Our melatonin goes up so we sleep better

because we have a camp of men that will solve that will they'll protect us We take returns on watch so I don't have to stay awake all night We're in case a tiger comes and eats me one of you will alert me and we've had high Serotonin as well through our conversations through bonding through drinking and eating and feasting and we have high serotonin together So tomorrow our brains are gonna be crystal clear. We're going to be calm. We're not in total scarcity mode. We're going to be thinking tactically and we're not going to jump at every little rabbit. We're going to be going for the big game tomorrow.

That's how it works. Are there practices that, so aside from specifically working on your attachment, understanding your partner's attachment, are there other practices that tend to contribute to positive effects in this direction in the sense, for example, for me, spiritual practice has had one of the biggest impacts on this specifically, even though I didn't know it was going to go in the direction. I've heard of other things like you need to get out of the house and hang out with your friends or have a hobby so that you're not focused. Are there other practices that people can

engage in that can indirectly help this? If you have fostered secure attachment correctly, then yes. Friendship is absolutely mandatory. You cannot do all of this and have a high quality life and the proper brain chemical balance without at least one or two good friends. You guys have that with each other, which is fantastic and people sense that. That's why they keep tuning in because you guys have that brotherhood component here. But even you said prayer, right? I'm a deeply religious, faithful man myself.

When you have secure attachment and you pray and you connect with the divine, you release oxytocin and get that personal bond and connection, but you also get serotonin in that moment through prayer. It's a great way you can just do that and spot get it right there on that moment. That's a big element of prayer. It's why people love prayer and that's why they get almost addicted to it in some capacities. And that's also why people who live the monastic life,

they are still getting those brain chemicals through their prayer life. Even though they're monks. Just fantastic. Even though they're living alone. They're not a hermit in the woods. They're getting those brain chemicals properly through the divine that way. They're being nurtured. But friendship, absolutely vital and mandatory for this process as well. But again, only if you have fostered the attachment ability to say, I can connect with other people with friends, I can connect with the divine, somebody cares about me, I can solve problems together with the other person, I have a relationship instead of problems to solve.

Is this one of the reasons why you hear of some of the deepest, like especially among men, like some of the deepest friendships that men develop is because they've developed these friendships with men where they were forced to be vulnerable, like war or like high performance, highly competitive sports, where you're out there and it's like win or get hurt type of deal. Is that why? Because you're in those situations and it's like win or get hurt type of deal. Is that why? Because you're in those situations and it's like, I'm forced? Sometimes that's the only time that avoidant men have ever bonded properly with anybody

is with a co-founder of a business together or a sports team or something like that. Vasopressin is not blocked by cortisol like oxytocin is. The vasopressin receptors are open and your oxytocin receptors, if you don't get much and you're avoidant, will shift into vasopressin receptors. And men have more vasopressin receptors are open and your oxytocin receptors, if you don't get much and you're avoidant, will shift into vasopressin receptors. Wow. And men have more vasopressin receptors than

women do anyway. We are primed for that. So in a survival circumstance, all of that goes way up through the roof. So yes, that's how men bond. It's one of the number one ways that we bond. And if our wife isn't bonding with us through vasopressin, we're probably not bonding with her either.

Now, how often though is, does that become even those become toxic relations? For example, you ever seen the movie Goodwill Hunting? So like you bond with these young men because you all went through trauma in high school, say together with that. And you now have this loyalty where you go fight people all the time. You do all this stuff like that and you just have this crazy bond, but they're, you know, the group that you're hanging out with. They're stuck in that traumatic, that trauma cycle, right? And you're trying to grow beyond that, but that you have this crazy loyalty to them.

Like how often do you have to work with somebody who's built that? Everybody, I work with it a lot. Everybody needs to be open to new relationships. Do not ever assume that you have enough relationships in your life because they're going to grow. People are going to cycle out. People are going to open up new opportunities. I met you guys, what, a year ago? Yeah.

I think it's almost to the day. Like, and our relationship has grown amazingly and I'm watching you guys grow. But before, if I had been, if I had said, no, I've talked to enough podcasters. No, I've talked to enough people. No, I've grown enough. This would never would have been fostered.

And, and, and that's everybody needs to be open to new podcasters. No, I've talked to enough people. No, I've grown enough. This would never would have been fostered. And that's, everybody needs to be open to new relationships and not as threats, but as mutual opportunities for you and for them. That's such a better way to like, so I've talked about this before of like, cause I had that, I had loyal friends that ended up doing that and people were like, so what do you do?

Do you break up with them? I said, instead of looking at it, like you're breaking up with your old friends, you're opening the door for new relationships to come in. And then that it normally brings that awareness to you without having to have this like, Hey, I know we've been best friends for 15 years, but you're toxic. We can't be friends anymore. Let's break up.

I'm moving on from you. It's like, just open up that space for new relationships to come in. This is so before for everybody listening at home, before we started this episode, you and I were talking about how we share a hometown. Yeah. Modesto, California. Yeah, yeah.

And it's the place that George Lucas said, that's what he said, episode four, he said like, this is the place that, if there's a bright side of the universe, it's the place that's farthest from. That, everything about Luke's planet is Modesto. That was Lucas fleeing from. Hold on a second, really?

Yeah. Did you know this, Justin? That was him- Oh, you knew he grew up in the area. Wow. That was him fleeing from our hometown. Wow, that's funny. He also did American Graffiti, which is a story about how awful it is to live in Modesto.

So he hated our hometown. Yeah. So you and I- It's known as like one of the worst. It is. It was actually voted like the worst city, the most miserable city in America for a couple of years. It is. It was actually voted like the worst city, the most miserable city in America for a couple years. It is, it was terrible living there.

But when I moved out, and maybe you had this experience, when it was time to move out, I had deep friendships, I had connections with good people, and they were like, don't leave, why would you leave? And I'm like, it was voted worst city in America. Like, I wanna go have kids somewhere where they'll thrive, not this crap hole. And they were like, no, no, stay.

That was that bond. I had formed those connections. Was that you too? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and I'm speaking about those types of friends, because I have those that go all the way back to elementary and middle school and high school, and we were all very, and many of them, it's kind of, and you know this, you either like get stuck in that town

and then you raise your family in that or you move on beyond that. And I obviously moved on beyond that, but it took a long time for me to move beyond the relationships because I had this loyalty. I had this loyalty. I went through a lot of stuff when I was a kid. So a lot of the relationships I built also were kids like that. And so we all formed our clique, but a lot of them were still stuck in that loop. And I was kind of going beyond that. But now based on what you said a moment ago, a little bit earlier in this episode about your wife, her family and everything, right? You probably didn't form deep connections with new people.

You probably were just looking back at those relationships that were some of your best and you hadn't reforged the relationships you needed to yet. So you didn't find true fulfillment in them yet. Yeah, it took a while before I started to get like relationships like this that I'd say that I share with these guys because again, I was still attached to those old relationships. Now when you foster secure attachment, you can make those new relationships almost at will.

You can find new people and you filter them quickly and carefully and then you reconnect with those people and say, hey, there's something here. Do you want to do this? And they'll say, yeah. And you forge those connections. So yes, you're still loyal to those other people, but you are also loyal to the new group and you move forward with excitement. Yeah. You're not looking back all the time saying, man, if only.

Yeah. What are the characteristics or things that people should adopt or maybe mentalities that people should have or consider going into work like this that can ensure or help ensure success. Because this is not easy work. This was developed as a child and we all know that things you develop as a child become your second nature. It's not necessarily something you're thinking about,

it's something automatic. What helps ensure success? If somebody's like, I gotta work on this, I wanna be successful at this. What are the things that you see in the people that are successful versus those that have a tougher time? Yeah, no, that's a great question, because there's two elements to this, right?

There's fixing the immediate damage issues short term, and then fixing the long-term growth issues as well, right? So I have couples come in, or people come in all the time. I have an eight-session marriage pack, right? And people say, how could couples come in or people come in all the time. I have an eight session marriage pack. Right. And people say, how could you fix my set, my marriage in eight sessions? Well, you fix all the damaging factors. Then you make it sustainable and then you build them into a little bit of joy in eight sessions, but that doesn't fix your lifetime of challenges all in one go.

It fixes the immediate damage. So fixing the immediate damage, what you must absolutely have is the desire to actually find a solution. Number one, if you come in thinking you have the solution and you're not going to listen or there is no solution and you just have to knuckle, knuckle under and just tell your partner to be quiet, then nothing is ever going to get better. You have to believe in a solution. Number one, for short term. If you can believe in a solution, you can do the long-term work.

There are solutions out there. Okay. to believe in a solution, number one, for short term. If you can believe in a solution, you can do the long term work. There are solutions out there. Okay. Long term number two though, is the real belief that there's a better way to live and that you're going to find it. That's what you've got to have. So you have to have that hope. You have to have hope long term and not even just hope, but you have

to continuously grow into it. You called your wife growth minded earlier. And that's really the defining feature long term is you have to continuously grow into it. You called your wife growth minded earlier. And that's really the defining feature long term, is you have to believe that growth is possible and worth it. And then you chase it for the rest of your life. It's not even at that point about becoming secure enough. It's how more secure can I get? How better relationships can I get?

How much more serotonin can I get and give to my family? How much of a better family can you give and give to my family? How much of a better family can you give to your son? Right? That's the exciting part. Yeah. I think once you get a taste of it, it's actually not that hard. Just getting to that point, I think that's difficult. The taste is everything. Yeah. Once you move beyond those talks, once you see it's possible, once you see the benefits of it, then it's like, oh, okay, I get it now. Then it's just a matter of being consistent. Because of course you'll always default

to those old pathways, those old behaviors, but because you're aware of it, because you've seen how good it could be, I think it becomes a lot easier. But it's probably that the distance between becoming aware and actually seeing some positive benefits has got to be the hardest track to cover. Now, Adam, you help people through therapy,

one-on-one, but how else do you help people now that you have a podcast, you've grown in public, what are the ways that you've been able to help people with this? Oh man, it has blown up. So I have coaching that I offer one-on-one and for couples as well. And that's been fantastic watching people build,

I build them a program and we walk through it very quickly for the short term effects. I have a private mentorship community called the Attachment Circle though, where I have students come in, some of them have worked with me for the day in there for over two years, just gathering skills every single week together. And they're just learning and continuously

refining, it's this incredible process, just watching these people gather skills and then just learn through the years. I have video courses you guys have helped me with before, talk to people about the attachment bootcamp. The newest one I just launched is how to love an avoidant man for avoidant men

and their families as well. Wow, that's great. They can learn how to trust each other, how to build those loving intimate relationships, how to solve problems together, that is in there as well. In addition, I'm putting together a retreat later for this year where I'm gonna have people come in,

a very select number, maybe 25 people I'm thinking, we're gonna put together a retreat maybe up in Colorado, up in a resort, and we're gonna teach attachment right there on the spot and really experience it together. So I'm branching out everywhere. Awesome, awesome. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show again, man. It's always great and this episode was,

except for me, it was really good. So I appreciate you coming on. I hope it helps. I think it great, and this episode was, except for me, it was really good. So I appreciate you coming on, I hope it helps. I think it will definitely help. You still send Sal the bill later. Yeah, yeah, I will. That's why I do these, it's free. I love it.

I love it. Yeah, but. I could be throw up a gift for your guys' audience. Please. Yeah, yeah. So everybody listening out there, if this has clicked and you're an avoidant man, or with an avoidant man, I'll give you 30% off the Avoidant Man video course

so that you can get started and build your family and build connection there. I know after I did the last episode, you guys, I had so many people in your audience come in for coaching with me, I want to give a 20% off discount as well to anybody out there who wants to do coaching with me, come in, we'll link those down in the description below so you guys can get those connected.

Awesome, thank you. Thank you, great. Thanks again, Adam, appreciate you coming on. Thank you for having me again. Thank you for can get those connected. Awesome. Thank you. Beautiful. Thank you. Great. Thanks again, Adam. Appreciate you coming on. Thank you for having me again. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes maps anabolic, maps performance, and Maps Aesthetic,

nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a 5-star rating and review on

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