Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2392: Steps to Overcoming Addiction with Tom Conrad & Ben Bueno

Episode Date: August 1, 2024

Real Recovery Talk-Steps to Overcoming Addiction with Tom Conrad & Ben Bueno Tom and Ben share their history of addiction and trauma. (2:16) “Put the clients first and the money will be there.�� The origin story of Rock Recovery Center. (25:17) The dark world and hustle of ‘Body Brokers’. (31:07) Are there common mistakes with treatment? (40:13) Why any attempt to shield an alcoholic is doomed to fail. (42:29) The importance of fitness for recovery. (44:57) How quickly can they tell if someone will be successful through this process? (49:14) What are some of the biggest obstacles patients encounter? (55:42) Strategies for people in denial. (57:46) “It’s not the amount of time that you spend with your children, it’s the intentionality behind it.” (1:01:49) The role of the spiritual component in recovery. (1:05:51) Is there a correlation to the level of addiction somebody has/gone through to the level of trauma they suffer from? (1:19:13) The first steps you can take if you want help. (1:26:07) Bringing awareness and staying authentic. (1:30:14) Related Links/Products Mentioned Exclusively for Mind Pump Listeners, you can apply for a FULL scholarship for treatment.  It is valued at $60,000 and could be around 4/5 months' worth of treatment! Visit here to enter! TRANSCEND your goals! Telehealth Provider • Physician Directed GET YOUR PERSONALIZED TREATMENT PLAN! Hormone Replacement Therapy, Cognitive Function, Sleep & Fatigue, Athletic Performance and MORE. Their online process and medical experts make it simple to find out what’s right for you. July Promotion: MAPS Split | Sexy Athlete Bundle 50% off! ** Code JULY50 at checkout ** Rock Recovery Center - Drug Treatment Center in Florida   Body Brokers (2021) - IMDb Al-Anon Family Groups Have a problem with alcohol? There is a solution. | Alcoholics Anonymous Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest(s)/People Mentioned Real Recovery Talk | Addiction Recovery (@realrecoverytalkpodcast) Instagram Website Podcast Thomas Conrad (@realrecoverytalktom) Instagram Ben Bueno (@realrecoverytalkben) Instagram David Goggins (@davidgoggins) Instagram

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. This is a very special episode. Today we're talking with the hosts of the Real Recovery Talk podcast, Tom Conrad and Ben Bueno. They're also rehab specialists.

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All right, here comes the show. Ben, Tom, welcome to the show. What's up, boys? Pleasure, yeah. So I was on your guys' show, how long ago was that? Well, that was at the NCI convention, so that was in April. Was it the second time? Did you guys do it?

That was just the one time. We were just talking before that the whole time? Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. We started conversing a lot about just the parallels between the fitness space and the space that you guys work in, where you guys are, you guys work with helping people through addiction. And I remember some of the things I was saying on

your show in terms of how to help people with behaviors and stuff, and I could see you guys nodding your heads like, wow, that's kind of similar to what we do. So maybe give our audience a little bit of history, what you guys do, why you do it, and then we can go. Oh, and your personal, your personal. Well, I wanted to start there.

I wanna hear your personal stories on how you guys came. You want me to start? Go for it. I'll start. Yeah, so first off, appreciate you guys having us on. I mean, this is something that I remember probably, I would say four years ago, I'd have to check with my wife. We've been watching you guys forever.

And I remember telling Amanda, my wife, I'm gonna go on Mind Pump one day. She's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And so here we are. So I watching you guys forever and I remember telling Amanda my wife. I'm gonna go on mind pump one day She's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and so here we are. So I appreciate We'll frame a pic hopefully she continues to listen to after starting like that So no, I mean, you know for me myself alcohol was My the love of my life, you know, for me myself, alcohol was, uh, uh, my, the love of my life, you know, booze was something that I turned to for everything. And I grew up in the Pittsburgh area and, um, you know, so September 15th, 2010, I found my way to Florida.

I flew into Jacksonville, Florida for treatment, uh, 26 years old, long story short, I was an auto mechanic by trade and just drinking, very blue collar town. You drank and I went and worked on cars and just did that day in and day out. Got heavily involved in benzodiazepines, Xanax, Ativan, stuff like that. Last three years of my addiction was primarily a blackout. I don't really remember any of it.

In the last three weeks of my using, I ended up getting a DUI. Well, I totaled my car, and then I worked at a car dealership, and I worked alongside my dad, because he was the head mechanic there and You know, they brushed it under under the rug, you know, they knew I was a severe heavy drinker They brushed it under the rug. They gave me a rental car and one week after they gave me the rental car I got a DUI in the in the rental car and

Still didn't stop drinking and then one week after that, you know, my dad actually called me up and said, you don't have a place to work and you also don't have a place to live anymore. And, uh, went home and basically packed a bag and took a one-way flight to Jacksonville, Florida, went to treatment, did detox residential and ended up in West Palm Beach, um, late October of 2010. And, uh, you know, continued my treatment there on an, like an outpatient level, did sober living, lived in a sober living environment with a bunch of other guys, 40 other guys at the time.

And, uh, you know, just got involved with a strong community of sober people and really started to understand like what this whole sobriety thing was about. Because in the beginning, like I thought I was just taking a one way flight to Jacksonville. I'm going to do 45 days of treatment and then I'm going to go back to Pennsylvania and drink like a gentleman, you know, and that, uh, wasn't in the cards. I didn't know anything about like sobriety or anything like that.

I knew nothing of that people just stopped drinking. Like it was in my culture. So, you know, when I got surrounded by these people that were sober and having fun and doing all the things, I'm like, huh, you know, this, there's something to this. And do you think you have a problem at this moment? Do you like, are you going there like recognizing that I have a problem or do you think, like you said, you're just trying to clean this up a little bit

and then I'm going to go back to my ways? Or are you aware that this is an issue? I knew when I got my DUI, a kid from my high school gave me my DUI. He's, he pulled me over. He put me in handcuffs. He stuffed me in the car. And I remember sitting there like, like finally I'm done, you know, like, Oh, like a relief. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a pocket full of pills, you know, and I took those cause I didn't want

to get a possession charge, stuff like this. So I got this sigh of relief, but I was, I was so in like addiction had me so hard that I couldn't just stop. Like it wasn't drinking for me. Wasn't something that like, um, I'm going to take today off. It was like, I didn't have a choice. You know, I, I would shake really bad, you know, delirium tremors, you know, couldn't sleep, all the things. And so that's why I kept drinking for another week, another week after that.

But yeah, I knew I had a problem, but it was one of the things I was 26 years old. And everybody that I surrounded myself with did the same thing. So it was normalized for me, you know? So I'm like, I'm going to go dry out. Hell yeah. I'll go to Florida. Why wouldn't I? I'm in Pennsylvania. Snow's going to start flying, you know? So let me go dry out for a little bit.

And then, you know, that was in 2010 and I've been in Florida ever since, you know, and, you know, been doing this whole sober thing now for almost 14 years and I can't imagine going back to it. So did the program actually work for you or did you have can't imagine going back to it. So did the program actually work for you or did you have to do this multiple times to get to sobriety? Yeah. One time. One time. That's rare, right? Isn't that really, I think the numbers like 80% fail or something like that or

higher. Is it crazy? Yeah. And we can get into a lot of this and you know, cause Ben and I, obviously we work in the treatment space and I've heard you reference, you know, the treatment space, body brokers in particular a lot. And I would love to get into that, but the success rate isn't high. You know, we interact with clients on a daily basis and the success rate it's not high, but I think there's multiple reasons as to why, which

we can get into. But for me, one time, and it's not because I was any less of an alcoholic than the average person. It was just that I firmly believe I surrounded myself with good people. Uh, I knew that like, if this is what I want to do, I need to do it and I need to do it well. You know, did you not, have you not touched alcohol since then, or can you have a sip or a drink?

No, it's funny. I always get asked that, you know, even my buddies back home, a good friend of mine, Mitch, he's like, he just doesn't, he can't comprehend it. And most people can't, you know, no, I haven't had a sip. And for me, there's, there's just way too much risk versus reward, you know, could I maybe, but do I want to risk it? Like, hell no. You know, I got a wife, three beautiful kids, you know, could I maybe, but do I want to risk it? Like, hell no. You know, I got a wife, three beautiful kids, you know, and like for me, it's

just, I don't even want to go down that road with the association with that. What's that too much association you've built around it. Yeah. You know, one thing that I tell people is I had a lot of good times drinking. I really did. I mean, I partied with the best of them, you know, and had a lot of good times, but the bad times far outweigh it. And that's what like sticks in my mind is like the DUIs, the tremors, the

not being able to sleep, the having the shotgun in the corner of my room, you know, thinking to myself, like, I'm, I'm only a few feet away from grabbing this shotgun and blowing my head off. You know, that's kind of where it took me to. And I know that's where I'd end up, you know? Well, now, so you, I mean, this was kind of self-led in terms of you going to seek treatment, like you weren't coerced to do that. I was like something you felt innately you had to do or?

No, no, it was when I got, I got, you know, everything for me was pulled, the rug was pulled out from underneath. Yeah, Gats said no job, no house no more, right? No job, no house. I was 26 years old, you know, I didn't have, I had no money, you know, and I made good money as a mechanic, you know, Pennsylvania, you know, I was making close to 80 grand a year working on cars,

but I didn't have two nickels to rub together. You know, I was bartending, not getting paid just to be able to run a tab, you know, and then I'd close the bar, sweep the floors just so I can drink for free and still didn't have any money, you know? So it was very like, so yeah, my dad basically was like, dude, you're, you're, you're done. Tough love. Yeah, exactly.

Were you mad at him when he did that? Or were you thankful? Probably understood. Probably understood if you're sitting in the car and you had that moment. I understood, you know, exactly. Were you mad at him when he did that? Or were you thankful? Probably understood if you're sitting in the car and you had that moment. I understood, you know, and for my dad, like looking back on it, it was me and my dad growing up. That was it. My mom left when I was two, uh, addiction, like big time on her side of the family, addiction big time on my dad's side of the family. So it like runs in the family. He did the best he could with what he had.

And I knew, cause like we got almost in fist fights over my drinking and all that played in my head. And I remember him driving me to Pittsburgh international airport and getting out of the car with a bag and like some underwear, shorts, you know, just enough to go and ball and like crying because I didn't know like, you know, what's going to happen, stuff like that. And you know, it just ended up working out to where we talked shortly after and like our relationship was rocky for obvious reasons,

but like the moment that I went to treatment, like our, it grew, you know, our bond grew so much. Now has he, have you and him sat down and broke bread and talked about this? Like, is there things that he says as a dad, I wish I would have done this? Yeah, of course. Yeah, like what are some of the things he says?

Cause I imagine if you have it, it runs in both sides of the family, that he probably thinks, man, I probably should have nipped this in the butt sooner or saw the signs. Does he tell you stuff like that? Yeah, well, my dad lives with me now. Two years ago, he had a stroke. And so it's kind of come full circle. He took care of me for the longest time. And then two years ago, June 14, two years ago, he had a stroke. And so it's kind of come full circle. You know, he took care of me for the longest time.

And then two years ago, uh, June 14th, two years ago, he had a stroke and I found them, you know, and, but prior to that. Yes, of course, because you know, my dad back, uh, years ago, he got diagnosed with Wagner's vasculitis, it's not immune. Uh, it's, uh, you know, basically his nervous system turned on his, or his immune system turned on his nervous system, ate a lot of his muscle tissue, yada, yada, yada. Well, deep into my addiction, he, he asked me if I can find him a bag of weed. And for me I'm like, Oh, this is amazing.

Now I get to start smoking weed with my dad. You know what I mean? Like, in typical 20 year old, that's what you know, co-signed all my behaviors and stuff. And so like, he knows that he played a part in my addiction by way of enabling, but it's been my responsibility now to share with him, like you did the best you could with what you had, you didn't know. And that's honestly why we started the podcast was to really be, you know, a voice of reason to parents and loved ones that they don't know.

They just think that like, you know, like we often say we're competing against mama bear and mama bear has instincts and it is to protect her children. But oftentimes protecting your children from the DUIs, from the overdoses, from these things, you're just killing them. You know? And so for me, that's what, you know, he had to pull the rug out from underneath me. Now, do you and Ben meet during this process? Do you guys go back before that?

Like you get it. Let's see. How did you get, like start with your. And I want to know the, I feel like every person that's ever been addicted, I went through my own thing of addiction with pills and everybody I've ever met, there's, everybody has a very clear visual aha moment time. Like you said, getting in the cop car, like I want to know too, if you had the same thing, because I'm always interested in that. Oh yeah, the alphabet crew was involved for sure.

Oh yeah. DEA. So to go to your question, I'm on the other side of that where I did a decade of treatment centers. I always joke about it. I had rewards points to every psych ward in West Palm Beach. If it went under new management, I'm like, let me try it out again.

You know, but to kind of tell you a little bit about my story, I'll preface this. I'm an absolute open book. I believe in being authentic. People connect through pain, right? And for me, if I have an experience and I now have a solution, it'd be selfish of me not to share every detail of it, right? Whether it's through trauma, whatever the case may be. But I started off super young. The first time I ever took a drink, I was nine or 10 years old, I will never forget that experience. I remember saying to myself, this is why adults do this. I'm going to do this every opportunity I have.

Oh wow. And then, you know, we talk about the genetic side of that. I believe I was genetically predisposed to that. Like when I took that drink, you put a drug in my body, I want more. It just, even at that age, if I knew what alcoholism was, I would have said, I'm an alcoholic. Then we tie in like life experiences, right I knew what alcoholism was, I would have said, I'm an alcoholic. Then we tie in like life experiences, right? At the age of 10, and this is where I believe in being an open book, I have a lot of sexual trauma at the age of 10. Just to give the quick elevator version of it, there was a guy that was from, where's he from again? Ohio. He had done prison time for sexual assault on children. He had

actually 28 charges on him. This was before there was a sex offender registry, right? He ends up getting out of prison, coming down to Florida and infiltrated my life through a summer camp. I had severe sexual trauma for about six months of my life that I was exposed to. And I just remember that I was 10 years old, I'm going into middle school, absolutely hating myself. I have no identity, I don't know who I am, right? And that first introduction that I got to, you know, I had experienced alcohol, but when the drugs are easier to get than alcohol for adolescents, you don't need an ID, you just need a buddy, right?

So I started getting into everything from benzodiazepines. Growing up in Florida, we had the pill mills. Oxycontin was huge, right? So I started getting into that stuff, smoking weed. It's like 10, 11 years old. So I'll say this, by the time I was a freshman in high school, I absolutely had a problem. Like I was a full blown drug addict, alcoholic by the age of 16, it was real bad. You know, I was doing heroin at that point and you know, it's, it's funny because I

have lots of, lots of abilities. I'm intelligent. You know, I've, I always loved the gym. You know, I'd be the first, I beat the football team to the gym and I'd be the last one out, right? So presentation wise, like I always kind of had it together, but inside, suicidal ideation all through high school. I'm also an open book about my mental health too. Even till today, I suffer from depression.

But again, like big part of that too, be in the fitness space, like I'll tie some of that in later, but it helps me with my depression, the endorphin release, all that stuff. I even struggle with my mental health today, presently, like I'll go through bouts where my depression is really bad. And what it comes down to is self-medicating. Drugs and alcohol was the answer for me. It was the only relief that I could get in such a lost space. You know, I didn't even want to be on this planet anymore. Thank God drugs and alcohol was there because I

can sit here today and say it saved my life. That's great. Until, you know, the consequences start piling up and about 20 years old, I was a bartender, personal trainer growing up in South Florida, did the whole rave scene thing. So, you know, I was into the opiates, did the ecstasy,

did all that stuff, going down to Miami every weekend. There wasn't much I haven't experienced as far as drug culture, consequences, going to jail, DUIs, you name it. Overdoses, couple overdoses in there. I remember at 20 years old saying to myself, this has to be stopped, right? What I didn't realize is no matter how strong my desire to stop was,

I had this inability, utter inability to put it down. I remember that day, like I'm like, I'm stopping today. About four o'clock later that day, I'm sitting with an eight ball of cocaine in my pocket and sitting at the bar drinking all night. And I'm like, I made a decision this morning to be sober. Why can't I do this? And after making that decision, it still took me another seven and a half years to get this. So it wasn't a matter of not wanting it. It wasn't a matter of willpower. I can willpower my way through anything. Like today I compete in bodybuilding, for instance. You have to have willpower and mindset to do that. For sure.

Addiction, it didn't matter what kind of willpower I had. And for me, December 8, 2010, mentioning the alphabet crew, I'll throw this out there. I was never a drug dealer. I just did a lot of drugs. Let me throw this in. You have to do a lot of drugs personally to get DEA involved. Just want to highlight that.

Because DEA is normally somebody who's cracking down on somebody who's dealing with a lot of drugs. So for DEA to crack down on you, you must be doing a lot of drugs. Oh yeah. Well, they knew that I knew where to get it and all the different sources. I was really well connected in that manner. I want to throw this in there too, without under an ability to stop.

And I'm not proud to say this whatsoever, but I remember I had moved up to Minnesota for four years trying to get clean from South Florida. And I remember I met a young lady and you know, who ended up being my wife and she got pregnant. And I remember saying to myself that day, thank God I'm having a kid. What a better reason to get sober. Used throughout the entire pregnancy, lost custody of them immediately upon time being born. Like, I mean, what person does that, right? And I'm just explaining that, not because I'm proud of it whatsoever. I'm ashamed to say it even till today, but like I broke all my morals, all my values as a human being because that obsession was so strong. December 8, 2010, I had done the methadone

programs, the boxing programs, all that stuff. My wife and I, we were downtown Minneapolis, and I just remember we were walking to a hotel to meet our drug dealer. The doors opened up. It was a snowy day. It was freaking cold out. And all of a sudden sudden my heart just drops. There's the blue jackets like 10 15 of them and a miracle happened that day I where The Officers involved they threw me in the back of a car They wanted me to flip on some people where you getting your stuff we know, you know people and I'm like, I'm just better off going to prison these people will kill me and

Her dad had worked for the Minneapolis Police Department and he had cancer and passed away from cancer a couple weeks before we started dating. So I never met him. But apparently, they separated the two of us and one of the officers on scene recognized her name on her ID and said, Hey, you're Lance's daughter. And this officer went to these DEA's and said, Hey, can you let these two kids go? That's my old partner's daughter. And they let us go and they basically said, don't ever let us see you again.

And her and I, we hopped into U-Haul, hauled back down to Florida. And for whatever reason, that was it for me. My life was burned down to the ground. We didn't have custody of our kid at the time. It was just wild. Wow. I don't know how to explain after seven and a half years of making that decision at 20 years old, what was different that day.

The only thing I did right for all those years is I just didn't die. Just kept coming back. So at that moment, was it the fear? Was it the DEA? Was it that because like, man, I've reached this level of authority that I'm that close? I mean, what was that? Or did you feel like this is a miracle and I got a chance?

I would go more with that. Oh, okay. Where, you know, we have a saying in recovery, like, we have to be stopped, right? And I'm a believer today that I might not like the circumstances, but God intervened. God did for me what I couldn't do for myself. I was never like a religious person growing up, didn't believe in God, because if there was a God, like, look at my life, look what you've done to me, right? So, if anything, I had resentment towards people that suggested that there's a God that's going to take care of you, right? What I didn't realize at the time

is being put in handcuffs that day was God stopping me. And what changed? I wish I could answer that question, but the truth is I can't. Where is your family during the process of like after the sexual trauma you went through and you're this full-blown addict in high school? Are your parents together? Do you have siblings? What's your home life look like? Very good question. And the reason I say this, it doesn't discriminate. I grew up with wonderful, amazing parents. Wow. I mean, it's, you know, I didn't grow up in the hood. It's, it was a situation where with the trauma stuff,

you know, again, it was at a summer camp. My parents were giving me an opportunity that turned into something negative. And for me, I think with my family, I don't want to speak on behalf of them, but I think there was a lot of denial that this happened. They now know the truth, like I have newspaper articles, all that stuff. But the worst day of my life, I joke about this now, is the day that my parents joined Al-Anon, which is a 12-step program.

It runs parallel to Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous, but it's for the families. So basically they got educated on addiction, alcoholism, and like Tom was saying, the rug was pulled out from under them. Same kind of thing. My parents detached from me with love. They're like, we love you to death, but if we stay involved in this, we're literally going to love you to death. Something as simple as like giving me, paying

for my cell phone to ease their fear so that they can get a hold of me. Guess what? You just gave me a new resource to call my drug dealer. If I'm putting my energy and resources into getting a cell phone, that's a little less energy and resources I'm putting into getting some heroin, if that makes sense.

So it's very counterintuitive, like Tom was talking about, you know, mama bear, like you mentioned. Evolution, it's. It's like, I don't want my kid to be on the street. So they got to stay with me because otherwise they're on the streets and that's even worse. Not realizing that you're making it worse. Exactly. Wow. It's a scary place to be for a family. How did you, so then how did you guys connect? How did, how did this bring you two together? So he asked me out to a burrito. this bring you to, to go. He asked me off to a burrito. So there's, there's a, yeah.

Ben and I, we met at Palm beach state college. Um, you know, when I had a year sober, I, uh, wanted to get involved, you know, and kind of learn more, uh, I knew I wanted to work in the space at the time. And at the, at the time I wanted to become a therapist and, you know, I had all these dreams of becoming a licensed counselor, stuff like that. at the time and at the time I wanted to become a therapist and you know I had all these dreams of becoming a licensed counselor stuff like that. Is this because you feel like it changed your life so much in that short period of time or like what compels you to go that direction? Yeah so you know in our space and when people get clean and sober if you have a say you

go walk into any given treatment center and there's 50 people in there and you ask them you know hey what do you want to do moving forward? A lot of them will say I want to work in treatment and I want to give back you know and there's 50 people in there and you ask them, you know, Hey, what do you want to do moving forward? A lot of them will say, I want to work in treatment and I want to give back, you know, and that's, you know, I think that's what a lot of people genuinely want to do, but it takes a special person to really, uh, actually work in this field for the longterm. Um, but I had this drive, I wanted to work in the field. I didn't know to what capacity.

So I was taking some basic addiction classes at Palm beach state college. And then, you know, here walks in this guy and, you know, I don't even know exactly, we just met and come to find out we're born April 7th, 1984, same exact day, same year, crazy. Oh wow. Yeah. And so we just got, I don't even know, like, I guess it wasn't that special of a date because I can't remember the specifics of it, but you know, we grab lunch and

stuff and we're both newly sober. And like, do you know that? Do you announce that to each other when you meet each other? Like, does that come out in conversation or? So if you're in the addictions program at the school that we went to, probably 90% of people in that class. The other 10% I'm like, oh, you don't belong here. Yeah. Like why do you want to even get involved in this field if you're not in it? You know, I'm not saying that there are people that are not addicts. Like our therapists are,

they're not addicts, you know, but they have, you know, a drive and a want and a need. So, but anyways, good. Yeah. So us connecting, we just basically professionally had the, had the same idea of where we wanted to go. I mean, what else am I going to do with my life? I know a lot about drugs. I might as well, you know, teach about them.

And so we end up, I, I'd gotten a job in the field, same time he got a job in the field, being behavioral health techs, which is like an entry level position. And we both just kind of took the same path. And I believe it worked out really well for the both of us because we got to learn from the frontline forward. When you're there, when you're the one collecting pee from a drug addict and having those, there's more to the one-on-one conversations, driving drug addicts around in a van. It's almost like in a way, I'm, you're a therapist all day long, like that, those

frontline conversations. And all of a sudden I was like hooked on that personally, but we both just worked our way up through the field and, you know, I, I helped a lady open another treatment center and so learned all the licensing standards stuff along those lines. Tom did the exact same thing. And he actually approached me and said, Hey, do you want to do this with me? I was like, at the time we were like, well, I got this other project going on. He

had his going on. And I ended up going back to the brokering thing to be straightforward that the lady that I was helping out, this place really went the wrong direction. And I was like, I'm out of this. I actually was going to go apply at the police academy. And I was like, I'm out of the addiction stuff. And he just so happened to call me that same week and say, Hey, will you come get coffee? And he was like, we've been trying to work together forever. And I was like, well, let's do this. And yeah, we had a, uh, just started a small

center, you know, cause I had worked in a couple of, uh, places by then. And how does, how does that work? How do you start a center like that? How do you advertise for that? Like, how do you get, it's a very competitive, very competitive going back to even that show that you've referenced body brokers. I mean, it's extremely competitive. You know, but I worked at a place years ago from probably 2011 to mid 2012. And the guy that started it, he had 27 years clean and sober. He was a retired cop from New York City.

And I was actually in, in that program. This guy by the name of Jim rap. And, uh, he kind of took me under his wing, you know, and he was obviously a lot older than I, and I was always asking him like, how do you eat the same exact question? How do you open? Like what, what's the drive here? How do you do this?

Yada, yada, yada. And the one thing that he told me that this? Yada, yada, yada. The one thing that he told me that will always stick by, and this is where Ben and I align on everything pretty much, put the clients first and the money will always be there. That's really what we've done. If you look at other treatment centers here in California, in Florida, it was the Wild West five, eight years ago. People are spending a million, 1.5 million dollars a month just to be able to advertise on Google and we spend zero dollars on Google.

We don't, you know, everything that we've done up to this point has been through reputation, putting the clients first, you know, and really caring to them. But, you know, it's going back to the God thing. I mean, I'm a Christian and like, that's a big part of the, you know, and really caring to them. But you know, it's going back to the God thing. I mean, I'm a Christian and like, that's a big part of my faith. And I know that like I've been put on this planet, one, to care for my family, but to, to help people recover from addiction. And I can't, I don't, I can't say that we've reinvented the wheel in any way, other than like, we're doing God's work.

I want you to catch up our audience on body brokers. Cause I know I've, I've loosely talked about on the show, but I'm really interested from your guys' perspective. Because that was like so new to me. I saw that one. Holy shit. I told these guys, you gotta watch this. This is crazy. Like, I can't believe this is happening right now. And no one talks about it. Obviously, maybe that's because I'm not in that space.

How aware were you guys of it? When did you, obviously, I'm assuming you knew before Body Brokers, the movie came out. When did you become aware of, oh my god, this is corrupt as fuck? So when I first- And explain that to the audience, because our audience doesn't know.

So I'll give you my life experience with my first interaction with that. In 2014, I was working with the treatment center that had a really good reputation. And our clients were in an intensive outpatient program. So they're at the point where they have their cell phones, you know, they're getting back out into the real world, you know, and getting some exposure to what that's like. So all of a sudden one day, I'm out front with our clients, you know, just conversating,

and this van pulls up, this chick driving it. And she said, all of a sudden, there were six clients of ours go run and jump in this van. And I'm like, what is going on? They're like, what is going on? They're like, oh, this place down the street, they just opened a halfway house. They're giving us each $300 cash if we come over there.

And to a drug addict, 300 bucks in early recovery, you're a millionaire. Maybe throw some Jordans in there, a couple packs of cigarettes and they're sold. And are people really doing shit like that? Like bribing like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. And then now, now this is because for every new patient they have, they get money from the state or they get money from how does this work?

So insurance got it. You explain the hustle. Yeah. So you have to meet the medical criteria for it. So what ends up happening is they go to this, in this case, this was a halfway house. They would go to this halfway house criteria for it. So what ends up happening is they go to this, in this case, this was a halfway house. They would go to this halfway house, zero rules. In fact, they would put them right next to, in a neighborhood where there's tons of drug dealers,

if they weren't selling the drugs themselves, actually I should say giving away the drugs themselves. So they would get these clients that are vulnerable and they would say, hey man, I'm representing this detox down the road. I'll give you this bag of heroin. If you do this bag of heroin here, go to this detox. If you stay in that detox for a week, when you get out,

I'll give you 800 bucks cash. So they go to the detox, they'd get out of the detox. They'd say, Hey, if you go to this inpatient center after detox, if you do two weeks there, I'll give you another thousand bucks. Well, they get through that part of it, they get to the end, and they want to recycle them. They wait for them to have a couple weeks clean.

Hey man, I'll take you out for a few beers. Here's a bag of heroin, here's some crack. Hit this up. You want to make a thousand bucks? Go back to this detox for three days for me. And just the cycle. And that's because the insurance pays them well more than a thousand or 800 bucks or whatever. And then I would imagine. God, that's terrible.

When you're talking about a community of a bunch of addicts, the addicts are privy to this too. And so they willingly are letting themselves get thrown in the cycle, right? Like I would think they're like, this is a quick way for them to get easy money and get more drugs. So there's a saying in, in, in recovery in particular, with these young guys and girls that would get caught up in this cycle, the recovery starts when the insurance stops. You know, at 26 years old, you come to me and you say,

Hey Tom, your insurance is cutting out, you know, in a month, quickly you is cutting out, you know, in a month, quickly you see attitudes change, you know, and like the other saying is, you know, using their, their insurance card, like an Amex, you know, like, and, and we see it still to this day. Now let's say this, Florida is nothing like it was eight years ago. And we went through this. I mean, I had a guy at a Starbucks in South Florida. He walked, they called this meeting and a friend of mine, it was a mutual friend

that wanted to meet with me. He literally came to this meeting with a duffel bag with $45,000 cash, opened it in front of me and said, here, you can take this bag of cash today The only thing that I want from you is your lab business and lab business meant Your clients when they pee in the cup we want you I want to be the lab to do all the analyzing of the urine and stuff like that because the labs had You know, they were getting paid by insurance and stuff like that. the labs had, you know, they were getting paid by

insurance and stuff like that. So all this to say body brokers was very accurate, but it's also a movie, you know, and there's corruption in any business as we know, just so happens here, it's human lives. And so it makes it, it stings more, but what there was so much money to be made. Like I knew people that were bringing in half a million dollars a week, you know? And so it brought all the bad players, you know, people that had no business being in this field, getting involved. Uh, there's a story of a guy in South Florida. We don't need to say his name, but you can Google it.

Uh, he's served a 26 years, uh, sentence cause he was getting young girls, uh, chaining them up and, you know, basically, I mean, it crazy, crazy stuff. Now what happened was sober home task force FBI got involved. This goes back years ago and the industry in and of itself, at least in Florida is extremely cleaned up. I mean, there's not near as many treatment centers like we're the elders now we've been open 10 years and you know, the the people that were good are still in business. The people that weren't obviously aren't. So some things that have this much corruption, typically, what ends up happening is something like that

comes in and trying to clean it up. But they're always, when there's that much money and corruption, there almost always ends up being other loopholes or other ways to like, okay, well, so now we can't be so blunt and roll up in the van and say, get in and let's shoot you with heroin. But I would imagine that there's still funny business that's going on. Like, what does it look like today? Even though it's not as bad as what it used to be,

like, what are you guys still seeing on the bad side of like how people are using these facilities? In South Florida, the good guys survived. Okay. Like Tom was saying. And basically it's, at this point, it's become a culture where that stuff, if I sit down at a Starbucks to, to, you know, do some business development, if

you will, some marketing stuff, another center, if there's any suggestion of that from another party, very, it's a, it's a, you know, everybody knows everybody in the treatment industry. That name gets out there in an instant and they are shunned big time. So it's, we struggled. I mean, back in-

Cause when you're competing against people are giving away drugs and money, how the hell do you compete with them? 2016, 2017, I'd get phone calls from a potential client and I'll be like, Hey, I'd like to come to your place. What are you going to give me? Oh, the guy down the street just offered me 500 bucks. I'm like, well, I'm, I'm not that guy. I'm the guy that's helping people get sober.

If that's what you want, we're not the place for you. If you want to get sober, maybe we are, you know? And, and it sucked. It really did. We're, you know, we're, we're trying to compete for business, if you will, just to put it bluntly, against people like you're insinuating, like we couldn't compete. Right.

And eventually, just through people continuing to do the right thing with the help of the FBI, people actually going to prison, it's at least in Florida, it's very under control. The pendulum is swung back the other way. Very under control. Okay. And that has all moved currently.

I don't want to make this a blanket statement because there's good places out here in California, but under control. Okay. And that has all moved currently. I don't wanna make this a blanket statement because there's good places out here in California, but for instance, a lot of those bad guys in South Florida that didn't get caught moved out to California. And it's getting better here too, I will say that, but they're trying to catch up. I can't remember, I think Body Brokers was California. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm pretty sure it was California.

They were pointing out. In Florida, we service the East Coast. California really services the West Coast. Oh, sure. So it's kind of like. You're in the sunny environment. Yeah. And I tell you what, we could sit here and bash South Florida

treatment and stuff, but the one thing that I will say is that you won't find a place on this planet that has stronger recovery than South Florida. Really? I mean, there's not an hour that goes by to where you can't find some meeting, or you can't find another group of sober men or women, are there for you in some capacity. So there's a lot of bad, but the, again, going back to my story, you know, the good far outweighs the bad.

Is it, when we talk about the statistics, like 80% of people go back or fail or whatever, I'm assuming that's similar to like the fitness statistics where 90% of people gain the weight back and lose it, but that lumps everybody in there. And if you were to parse out people that did it right versus people that did it wrong, the statistics change. Is it like that with treatment? Are there common mistakes and are there right ways to do it where it just really ramps up the success rate, the potential?

So I'll tie it back to what I hear a lot about you guys. And Sal, you've, you've, you talked about this on our interview. Someone's motivation for getting into fitness. They want the six pack, right? For us, it's they want to stop drinking, stop drugging. What they don't realize is you're embarking on a journey that's much more than, than what the physical goal is for us, much more than just not picking up a drink or a drug.

It's a lifestyle change. You don't even know what's coming and that's a thing. They say that we get a life beyond our wildest dreams, right? And today, you asked a little bit ago, if Tom still thinks about the drink or if he can have one, the fact of the matter is, is that problem, we're not struggling not to drink a drug today. We've learned to live our life in a way where we don't even think about it anymore. And like, for instance, for someone that gets that, that they get in that routine, it becomes part of their lifestyle and fitness.

It's the same kind of thing. Once it's part of who you are, sobriety is a part of who I am today. The likelihood that I'm going to go back to that is slim to none. And to answer your question where I think a lot of centers, in my opinion, fall short, is that they don't take the worldview where we need to be touching on everything. What I see a lot of times is they'll have like a residential program, for instance, where you're locked in four walls. I get these phone calls from families all the time.

My son was in a treatment center in Ohio for 45 days, no cell phone locked in four walls. He was doing so well. He was getting great therapy. They let them out into the real world. Within a day he's back out. That's like comparing the biggest loser for obese people, right?

Yeah, they did so good at camp with a trainer training them three times a day. And cameras like comparing the biggest loser for, for obese people. Right. They did so good at camp with a trainer, training them three times a day. And cameras all over the place. So as you guys were going through all of that and seeing other treatment centers, how did you structure your own programming and what kind of, did you take ideas from other centers that were a good model? Did you kind of come up with your own structure there? I would say we, I think everybody's had the idea, but I would say we've actually followed through with it.

Where obviously it's a good idea to incorporate fitness or lifestyle changes. We do adventure, we do experiential adventure therapies. We literally take them surfing, bike riding. I mean, do you need to learn to have fun and recovery? Yes. That's like a generic answer. Cause everything I did, you know, if I went canoeing, do you need to learn to have fun in recovery? Yes. That's like a generic answer. Cause everything I did, you know, if I went canoeing, I had a six pack and eight

ball of cocaine in my pocket. Right. Where, yeah, you got to learn to have fun doing these things without substances. But even more important, it's like the human connection thing. I get more connected with a client when I'm paddling in a kayak with them, than if I'm sitting in a room.

And that's going back to what I was talking about earlier. They did so well in that lockdown room. We want to give them the opportunity to have the risk involved. You can, any, there's a saying in the big book of alcoholics and honors, any attempt to shield an alcoholic is doomed to fail.

You cannot shield alcoholics and drug addicts from drugs and alcohol. You have to teach them to live amongst it, if you will, in a safe manner. Obviously you're not going to look, I'm not going and hanging out in the hood today, for instance. Right. Or going to the bar and hanging out in a bar. You would go hang out in the hood though.

I once in a while. I drove. That's like his comfort area. But for instance, we'll get calls where parents will be like, Oh, you let them have their cell phone. I'm like, here's what we want to do. We want to teach them how to have it responsibly. When they get out of treatment, they're going to have a cell phone. We need to let them have that risk, experience it. And we have a saying too, we don't want people to get straight A's in treatment.

We want you to get pissed off. We want to see you cry. We want, not that we get joy out of seeing it, but if you're not getting to test the waters and not having these negative experiences and getting to do the application, if you will, you can have all the knowledge in the world. If you don't apply it, you're done for. It makes perfect sense. It's like trying to learn how to fight without

ever getting punched in the face. Like you got to be able to, cause when people reach for those substances, and correct me if I'm wrong, oftentimes it's during struggle or challenge. And if they don't get any struggle or challenge through the treatment, when they come out and they're hit with the struggle, how do I deal

with this? Now you said fitness is an important part of this. How important is it? Fitness, you know, and I'll again, I, I try and tie everything into my own story. You know, fitness for me has been extremely important in the sense of the mental health aspect of it, you know, I'm not one and listen, if you listen to our podcast, it's very well known.

I'm not the bodybuilder. I'm, you know, I go, I work out when I can. I got three young kids. I make time for it when I can. Sal, I've been, I've been listening to you guys for a long time and you know, I make it, I work out when I can and I try and make time for it. Um, but in the beginning for me, fitness exercise in particular, strength training was very important because it was

the place that I could go to that, you know, I was, I would struggle, you know, those struggles were there, uh, getting underneath a barbell and you know, maybe having a little bit too much weight on there, you know, but I struggled through it, got whether in a good situation or bad situation, like every, and I can honestly say this, I've never walked into whether it be a Globo gym or a garage gym or CrossFit gym. I can't tell you one time where I haven't walked out of there feeling better than when I walked in. And I started to understand this and, you know, really tried incorporating it more because I knew like, there's something to this, you know, before I was drinking and drugging, like, of course I'm not going to find my

way into any sort of gym at all. But once I started incorporating it into my recovery, I didn't make it my recovery, but I made it a part of my recovery. I started to notice the psychological benefits and stuff like that. And that's part of why we incorporate it with our clients because it works. I mean, I saw the good question for you would be how many studies out there prove that physical exercise is just as good, if not better than your typical SSRI

drug and stuff like that. If you compare the data on the mental health benefits of exercise versus the physical health benefits, by the way, they're hard to separate because they're so closely connected, but it's actually better for your mental health than it is for anything else. It's so understated how good it's so good for your

mental health, it's necessary because lack of activity is almost a guaranteed way to start to develop mental challenges like depression, anxiety. That's a very common side effects of being inactive. Let me say this one point before I forget the, and I know that, and I, I fall into this camp too, but the feelings on CrossFit, you know, it served a good purpose for me in the beginning. I remember I went to my first CrossFit class and I walked out of there.

I'm like, I'm never going into a LA fitness again. Like everybody's going to be doing CrossFit. You like, this is going to take everything by storm, you know? And I believed it. And the reason I believed it, it wasn't because the workout, like the workout was good. I felt like I was going to die, which at the time I incorporate. Rebellious culture. Yeah. Like it, you know, to me, progress meant how

fast was my heart beating? How much was I sweating? Sure. And how long was I laying on the floor rolling around, you know, if I was doing all of those, that was a good workout. But what CrossFit did for me at the time, which I needed more than anything was community.

Yep. That is what CrossFit did for me. It put me in a culture of time, which I needed more than anything was community. That is what CrossFit did for me. It put me in a culture of people, especially, I was surrounded by people that were addicts all the time. 24 seven, I'm around alcoholics, I'm around drug addicts, I'm like, you know, you get kind of burned out and then I find the CrossFit gym

and it's like, these are normal people, you know, normal professionals. We all meet here at seven o'clock in the morning, do this crazy workout, we all wear the matching clothes and the neon socks and we leave, you know? Or addicts, just different types. It could be. That's a fact.

Definitely addicts, for sure. And maybe it felt a little more like at home than you realized for reasons. Not that you say. It's not a bad bridge. It filled that void. Right, absolutely. And probably it served a little more like at home than you realized. For reasons. Not that you say. It's not a bad bridge. It filled that void. Right. Yeah, absolutely.

And probably served its purpose for you to move in that direction, right? So it makes a lot of sense. Totally. Why that would appeal. I'm curious, how quickly can you guys tell if somebody is going to be successful or not through this process? That's- I have an answer for this too. Go ahead. What? Go ahead then. No, process. That's that's to go ahead. No, you, you, and then I'll go.

Okay. So, you know, this is interesting because, and I have an example and I've been, you're gonna, you're gonna agree with this. We had a girl not long ago. She came into our office and she was literally sitting in front of us. And we were debating whether or not we needed to Narcan this girl. Narcan, uh, is basically the drug that you would use to, uh, prevent somebody from overdosing.

I don't know the medical side, um, what it's adrenaline, like it knocks you the, it, it prevents you from overdosing. Naloxone, it knocks all the opiates off of the receptors instantly. Okay. Putting them into instant withdrawal, but you're saving their... Got it. Basically, it's the reversal of an overdose. So she came in high as hell.

We had this young lady that a friend of ours, it's in West Palm Beach, she works for Palm Beach County Sheriff. He brought this girl in. He's like, I don't know what we're going to do with this girl. She's homeless. She's living underneath the bridge, uh, jogging 95 and she was sitting on this

couch in front of us, nodding out, drooling on herself. I mean, I was scared. 76 pounds. 76 pounds. Yeah. And, um, so to go to your question, all signs say like this ain't going to work. This girl has been, you know, she had just a couple of weeks prior, got hit by a car.

She had a broken pelvis, you know, I mean, just everything. And this girl, has she celebrated a year of sobriety yet? It'll, I believe it's this month actually. She's celebrating a year of sobriety. She came into our program. I remember sitting with her, just her and I, and I'm like, her name's Kaitlin, I said, Kaitlin, have you ever like, we're going to set you up with a nutritionist because we have a friend of ours is a nutritionist.

We're going to pay for it out of pocket. You don't have to worry about this. And we, this nutritionist is also going to take you through, you know, some basic exercises. and she was so anti this, it was in our studio and, and. She's like, I'm, I can't do this. Yeah. I mean, this girl's 80 pounds at this point in time. And we just got pictures of her.

She's still in the area. She's phenomenal. And you can't get this girl out of the gym. Now she's eating good. She can't get this girl out of the gym now. She's eaten good. She's up to probably 110 pounds, looks great, like, and coming up on a year clean. Now, if I saw that girl just on the street, I'm like, this girl don't stand a chance.

So it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell. Yeah, so, okay, let me tell you what I'm searching for from you, because that, I'm gonna give you an analogy in our space with that sound, what that's more like. That's like somebody coming in that is like morbidly obese and you know, and they've got snicker bar wrappers falling out of their pocket and they sit down in front of me and they go, I want to lose a hundred pounds.

And of course, physically looking at that situation, I go very unlikely, right? But what I'm looking for from you guys, is there things that there's, is there behaviors and things that they say that give that away to you? Cause to me, that's where I'm going to know when she starts talking to me and she, the things that she says that she wants to do for herself, if it's just, I want to lose a hundred pounds or I just want to get this off or my doctor told me to, it's like that, those are, those are signs. Or to be clear, like, uh, my genetics, I want to lose a hundred pounds. I just want to get this off. Or my doctor told me to, it's like that, those are, those are signs.

Or to be clear, like, uh, my genetics, I just got bad genetics. Right, right. Exactly. Versus someone's like, you know, I need, I need to make a lifestyle change. I know. And like, I know I'm, I'm medicating with food. They start saying things to me where I'm like, oh, this person is, has a good chance.

It has a very good chance because of where their mindset is at, regardless of their physical situation where they're at currently, I have a lot of faith in them. I imagine it would be very similar with you guys. There's got to be things that people say and then, and the opposite, true, right? They start saying things or you're just like, oh yeah, this person is

not good. They're just going to go right back in the loop. Like there's got to be that, right? You brought up mindset. I'm going to tell you what I did not like to hear, being the guy sitting in the chair, getting talked to. I had a buddy look at me. He saved my life saying this. Ben, victims don't stay sober.

When that victim mentality starts to come out, oh, this is why I'm like this. This is why I can't get better. You don't understand. You start to see these signs come out. And the fact of the matter is, is you got, you got to look at somebody in early sobriety. You literally took away the one thing that's making them feel better.

And there's kind of a saying, one of the best things about getting sober, you get your feelings back. One of the worst things about getting sober, you get your feelings back. One of the worst things about getting sober, you get your feelings back. So you'll literally see that this addict behavior, and we've developed like this vital sixth sense.

I'm sure you guys have it in your respective space too, where we see certain behaviors, just as you're talking about, the blame game starts happening, you're picking on me. And we go back to everything that we do is out of empathy and love. And I make sure, that's why the connection part we were talking about, community is so important.

I want somebody, I want that connection upfront. So when somebody knows, and I have to say something hard to them that might hurt their feelings, like I'd rather step on your toes than step on your grave is what I tell them. And I'm telling you this out of love. And if you've built a good enough rapport to where they trust you, and we speak the same language,

I speak fluent junkie. Like there's a connection there. We connect through pain. Let me share some of what I went through. I'm gonna tell you some of my deepest, darkest secrets. You have to be able to go at them directly and say, take a step back and look at your behavior. Because if you sit in your anger, your worry, resentment, your fear, you're going to eventually go back to the one thing that you know makes you feel

better. And that goes back to the whole lifestyle change. How do I live a life that's going to keep me out of resentment, fear, worry, depression, et cetera? So I imagine those people, the ones that you know are going to see, probably you can see the mindset of ownership and acceptance. Perfect. Very well said. Like, you know, I brought this on myself, I've got to fix me, I'm broken. I would imagine those types of words coming out of someone's mouth gives you guys hope of like, okay, we can save this person. Besides the self-medication with substances and the pain behind why, what are some of

the biggest obstacles? I would imagine it would be their friends and family that they hang around with before, that now you're like you can't hang around with them anymore. Are there obstacles that people have a tough time? You got to change this thing, Otherwise it can be very difficult. Like what do you, what do you guys find with that? I would come out and say, honestly, family, you nailed it. Really?

Even family with good intentions, even parents like mine, because again, they're trying to protect their loved one from pain. So what'll happen is you'll get a client to call in and say, Oh, the treatment center's picking on me and they do this and they'll do that. And then the parent calls us and said, I'm getting these bad reports. And I, my response to them is good. Right?

Yeah. So they will, and Tom tells parents this all, all the, on the phone all the time. We're going to ask you to take a backseat until we invite you into the process because we do want family involved, but we want to control it. And we do at our place, what we call family weekend, where we'll bring the families in, they fly in.

A lot of our clients come from out of state. They'll fly in and spend an entire weekend. Our therapist, Maya, runs a whole weekend where we do what we call like impact letters. And it gives, what ends up happening is that families communicate in a way that they've never communicated before. Because we're controlling the way that they're able to communicate.

The, the vulnerability that comes out, family weekend is so freaking powerful. You will never see more tears in your life. And I'm talking tears of joy, relief. Like it's, it's not anger. People go in there angry. This is going to, with this idea, this is going to be my opportunity to tell my loved one

everything that they did bad in their addiction and there I'm going to hold them accountable for it. And what we do is we actually hold the family, you're accountable going back to ownership. Look at your part. You look at your part, clean your own sides of the street, and

then we'll meet together. Yeah. If there's someone listening right now, that, cause I mean, there's, there's always a period of denial before the person realizes like, I got a problem. What could you say to people who might be in denial to help snap them out and go like, how

does somebody know like, yeah, this is a problem or is there nothing you can say? So what we do, there's, there's certain principles and tactics, strategy that you can take, for instance. And the easiest way for me to explain it to families is the more uncomfortable that you can make an addiction for somebody, the more likely they are to change. So for me, again, when my parents took a step back, when Tom's dad took a step back and said, you're on your own, figure it out, all of a sudden I'm realizing like, this isn't working. For instance, I'll get a call from a family and they'll be like,

my son is shooting heroin in the basement. And I'm like, where does he live? Oh, he lives in the basement. Well, how does he pay for his cell phone? Oh, I pay for his cell phone. Who does the grocery shop? Oh, I do the grocery shopping. And you're like, why would he stop shooting heroin? He's getting fed, he has a roof over his head, all this stuff. So, and that's the counterintuitive part.

You don't want to take all this stuff away from a loved one, but the reality of the situation is, is you're leaving them the opportunity to do their drugs and have everything else that they need. When, when your needs change, I know when the priority becomes more than I need heroin or I need fentanyl or I need crack and it's something else, that's where the energy diverts to. So sometimes it's a process.

When we, we're both interventionists and we do a lot of interventions. What do those look like? I watch a TV show called Intervention. Is that, is that an accurate depiction of? The strategy is accurate. Okay. Definitely.

So literally they walk in a room, they don't know, oh crap, everybody's here. Yeah. It's, it's, it's generally not the whole family there without it. It'll be a couple of family members. Um, but it is along, you can pick up on the principles that need to be followed. A lot of the times the answer is no,

I'm not going to get help. And I always tell families, it's not a loss. What we'll do is say, hey, here's what we're suggesting you do and the addict will shoot back oh no I want to do it this way I got this idea that idea and we step back and say hey if your plan is that good you should be able to execute it without our help without any of our resources go ahead and do it within a few days you usually see him coming back and you say hey you, you tried your plan, it didn't work. Are you ready to go with ours? So sometimes it's a process.

And the one recommendation I would have for families would be get a professional involved, somebody that's not emotionally compromised. We say this all the time on our podcast. If I ever have to deal with my children, they have a substance issue, I'm turning to somebody else. Because as much knowledge as I have, there's a chance that I'm going to have a real hard time executing or seeing through my own clouded judgment.

I have a family member that had two of their boys go through major pill addiction and they grew up in like this like upper middle class home, like good kids, everything like that. And they might, when I talked to this relative, they say that as the parent, that was the most difficult thing was being able to separate that is, you know, knowing that what's best is probably throwing them on the street, cutting them off, doing all that stuff. But it's real easy to say until you're faced with that situation.

I just say to Adam, you know, think about that for a second. As much as you love your son, imagine knowing that what's best for them is that you throw them out on the street and the thought of that is crazy and actually doing that. So I think that's wise advice is knowing that about yourself. Have a professional. Yeah, I need somebody else to help me do that

because there's probably not gonna have the willpower to do that to my own kid. It's one of my biggest fears. I have three kids, eight, six, and four, and out of the three, my son, he's the eight year old, he's the wild man, and I see a lot of myself in him. But I think it's a healthy fear to have. And, you know, I think that also something that is important for at least my perspective is I don't, I don't try and shield my son from this stuff.

You know, obviously we have the podcast and, you know, I play the podcast back because I want to hear myself and areas in which we can improve stuff like that. And if I'm in the car and I'm playing it, he's hearing about this stuff and like, he hears the stories and stuff like that. And the conversations that I have, um, honestly, I don't know if it's the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do, but I do know that like growing up for me. I figured it out on my own and I figured

out what I liked about alcohol and what I liked about drugs and I, and I found that out at a very young age, cause I didn't have any education around it. You know? So for me, it's like, if my, I can plant some sort of seed in my children that like, Hey, you hear the word alcohol, you know, it's kind of like a, you know, a hot stove, maybe, you know, curl back a little bit. That's kind of what I'm trying to accomplish with them. And if you guys have insight on that, I'm all ears.

Yeah, I wouldn't know other than to be honest and open. I'm very pro not shielding your kids if you have conversations like that. If you're having that conversation, it'd be different if you were intentionally forcing them into that space, right? But it's part of what you do. It's going to open the door for future conversations.

At one point, he'll be at an age when he probably asks you about some of those stories, Dad, I heard you did this or that. And then it opens an opportunity for you to speak to it. And I think one of the biggest mistakes we make as parents is assuming, uh, our children are naive or assuming that they're too young to understand it now, man. They learn everything. Well, you know what guys, and like, I, this is the honest to God's truth. Like knowing like Justin, your children and the gymnastics, my son, he's on the gymnastics team, uh, and he loves it. So like I just the education piece around it, like hearing the experience that you guys have had and are having with your children, like for me, I'm taking

bits and pieces of that and like trying to implement into my own kids' lives. And like Adam, I know like you're very intentional with your time with your son. And I actually referenced this with a client of ours last week because he was asking, you know, one of my biggest fears is he's in our program and he's going back home after completing about 90 days of treatment. He's like, one of my biggest fears is like going back to my kids and like them feeling alienated from me. And, you know, I told him, and I, you know, have heard you talk about this

numerous times that it's not the amount of time that you're spending with your children, it's the intentionality behind the time that you are with them. And you know, that's honestly like, I've heard that from you so many times because oftentimes I'll walk into my house and it's chaos, you know, three kids and I'm like, oh, and I'm a cleaner OCD type, you know, so I'm like cleaning up. I'm the cleaner as I know you are.

So it's my instinct to go in and start picking things up, but I've really had to take a step back and like, Hey, even if it's only for 10 minutes, I'm going to devote these 10 minutes to my children. But these are all things that like comes with like recovery and sobriety and stuff like that. You know, we start to see things through a different lens, you know, and that's like what the whole sobriety thing has afforded us and what we try and teach

our clients and people, you know, in this space. You both mentioned, uh, you know, uh, a spiritual component to this. Uh, I've seen data to show that that significantly helps, uh, the odds or improves the odds with recovery. It's old data, new data. There's lots of data around this. How important have you guys seen it play a role in somebody's sobriety, having that spiritual component

or God in that belief? Mind if I touch on this? No, this is all- I love this question. Like I mentioned before, I was very, I wouldn't say anti-God, but if there was a God, I was pissed, right? And for me, the spirituality component is very 20-20 hindsight.

And I want to say it this way because most people that come into early recovery probably fall into the camp that I'm in, right? Not all, don't get me wrong. Some come in with very strong conviction and strong faith and they follow that. There's no right way to go about it. But for me, I like to get the message out to the person that struggles with it. All I did for myself, I did these things called

the 12 steps, right? And they're spiritual in nature and I followed through these 12 steps, right? And I had this experience where we do this thing called a fifth step. And it's where you get this opportunity to tell God, yourself, and another human being basically the exact nature of your wrongs, if you will. And you're letting all the secrets out, right? It's God already knows what you did, you already know what you did. Admitting it to another human being is real courage, right? And so, through this process, we get to have what I refer to as spiritual experiences that are the building blocks to a spiritual awakening. This is what the 12

steps psychologically sets up for somebody has been my experience. I sit down with my sponsor and I do my fifth step with them where I'm supposed to tell them all my deepest, darkest secrets. You're not supposed to take any of it to the grave. The things that I'm most ashamed of, right? I finished with my sponsor and he looks at me and he's like, Ben, was that it? I'm like, yep, we're done. And he always said, best way to finish a step is to move on to the next one. I'm like, finish a step, move on to the next one, right?

This man, because he was armed with the facts about himself, was able to look at me. He knew me better than I knew me. He said, before we move on, I'm going to share some of the stuff that I didn't share with you because I'm not confident that you gave me everything. This man ended up telling me all his deepest, darkest secrets that he was afraid to share with his sponsor. And in that moment, some trust was built because 90% of what he shared with me, I didn't want to share with him. Now, this was just the beginning. This was a building block. I'm going to fast forward to step 12, which is we basically carry the message to another alcoholic. Right? Here I am, a worthless junkie my entire life, not a thing to offer to another human being.

All I did was rob, cheat, steal, and lie. I get to this point where they say, you know, Ben, it's time for you to go find a sponsor and take them through 12 steps. I remember looking at my sponsor and saying, I don't know if I can do for somebody else what you did for me, right? I end up coming across this young man that I could not stand. He would show up to these AA meetings, dude. Oh, this young punk kid would pull up with his 212s, boom, and the whole clubhouse would be shaking his dubstep. And this kid comes up to me because he finds out I'm to the point where I'm sponsoring. He asked me to sponsor him. I'm like, God, you've got to be kidding me right now. Now

I'm really pissed at God. Gave me this guy, right? I remember meeting up with this guy and I read him the first chapter in the big book of Alcoxonon, it's called The Doctor's Opinion. And when we were done, this kid, he's a gay gentleman, him and I got nothing in common, nothing. I couldn't even stand him. He stands up, he starts crying, gives me the biggest hug and says, no one's been able to tell me what's wrong with me. You're the first person to ever do so. And he hugged me and I just bust out Waterworks, right? And in that moment, here I spent all this time trying to intellectualize God, and in that moment I felt it in my heart, right?

God was there and that's when I realized vulnerability, authenticity, living your life along spiritual principles. God gave me a purpose and I didn't even know it. He said, congratulations Ben, you're a junkie, go help another one. That is your life's purpose. And to elaborate on that, I got to tell the Chi part. So, this is 2019, right? And I shared with you all, I lost custody of my kid twice. My own kid got taken away from me. I'm doing a, I basically participated in an intervention in 2019. I got a guy into treatment.

While he was in treatment, his wife in Daytona Beach overdosed and died with their 17-month-old locked in a trailer for over 12 hours. I get a phone call from him. He's in his 30th day. Hey, can you pick me up and bring me up? My wife overdosed and died. I need to get my kid. I drive him up there thinking nothing of it. You know, I'm going to bring you to your kid. I'm going to turn around and drive back to West Palm. We get there, child endangerment. There was already an open DCF case, Department of Children and Families, that I didn't know about. They wouldn't release Kai to his dad. And we're standing in this trailer park. I mean,

I've got pictures of it. It was not, this kid was not eating probably for days. I mean, it was bad. I can never get the image out of my mind. But I remember saying to the Department of Children and Families, hey, can I do anything? Because they didn't have enough foster parents or resources. And they're like, no, you can't do anything. You'd have to, you know, get into the foster system and all that and register. Hours went by and they still don't know what to do with them. Cause he has no extended family. Finally, I walk up one last time. It's like midnight.

I'm like, are you sure there's nothing I can do? I could show you my bank account. I have a home. I have a son, a wife. I could, I could do something for this kid. They're like, no, you would have to start off by getting what's called a level two background check. And I said, wait a minute, I have one of those on file on West Palm Beach. They let me in that moment, they did an emergency order and made an exception. I got to take Kai

home with me that day. He ended up staying with me for another two years and finally, March 31st, two years ago, got to adopt them. Wow. This come back to the spirituality thing. God had a plan for me the whole time. Had I not been a junkie, had I not ended up working in this field as a result of being a junkie, I would have never been an interventionist. I would have never been in that situation. And now today, I have a beautiful son that's six years old. Wow. And I'm a guy that got my kid taken away twice. And now they're asking me, they approached me and said, hey, he's been with you two years. Will you adopt him? Wow. You can't tell me that's not God. All the pain, misery, hurt that I went through,

I wouldn't change for anything because of what I've gotten to see as far as miracles in my life today. That's incredible. Wild. Yeah. Amazing. Sharing those stories to people who ask for help has got to be so powerful. It's got to be so powerful. It's good. How about for you? How about for you? You know, for me, it's been, I'm alcohol, you know, so I wasn't the junkie, you know, I don't have those types of stories, but, um, you know, a story that's close to that. My sister, my sit, my mom left when I was two and, uh, she took my sister. My sister is a year younger than me. Ben and I just turned 18. close to that my sister, my mom left when I was two. And, uh, she took my sister. My sister is a year younger than me.

Ben and I just turned 40 on April 7th, 1984. Right. My sister's 39 now. Yeah. My mom took her when I was two years old and I didn't see her again until I was probably 16. Very tumultuous relationship. You know, I, I, I've only met my mom twice.

She passed away, uh, in 2016 from drug addiction and stuff like that. Anyways, I met my sister twice, my whole entire life. And, um, three years ago now I woke up in the middle of the night in this like, just panic, anxiety about my sister. And I'm like, what the hell is this about? I've met my sister twice my whole entire life. She doesn't never cross crosses my mind. You know, like this is weird.

So I got on this like rabbit trail trying to find my sister on Facebook and the whole thing and then Took me three hours to come across people finder comm and they found her in ten minutes You know and I got the information that I needed, you know to be able to at least Find out some stuff about her Six months passes and then I got this random message on Facebook from some girl saying, I think my best friend knows you and she needs help. And I'm like, this is weird, but I got the chills, you know, and turns out this random

girl is my sister. And so like, I knew this was going to happen. My sister ends up reaching out and I got her full scholarship to treatment. So we end up we end up. Getting. I got her full scholarship into this treatment center in South Florida for. Forty five days and I went down and I hadn't seen her in 25 years. And I walk up and she's there and like we hugged and it was

like, we had never been separated, you know, you're going to have some work with the audio on that. We leave it in, Take your time. But it was like, we had never been separated at all, you know, over 25 years. And like we had, we had had some conversations and she let me in on a lot of like my mom and the trauma that my sister had to go through and stuff like that. And, you know, but again, going back back to God's plan, that was it. I wish I could say it was a happy ending. She completed the 45 days of treatment and she went back to Arizona and she started getting

high again. I got so pissed and angry. At the time I had her number and stuff, I could call her and stuff. I'm like, no, I'm not. You know, she just reached out to me two months ago. Fortunately, she got arrested. She did some time in jail. But she caught her her, her therapist at this other treatment center reached out and said, Hey, we have Tammy here. She wants to talk to you. And so over the past two months we've been talking and she's in sober living now and

she calls me a couple times a week just to check in. And, you know, so like those types of stories are like things that quote unquote normal people, you know, like something so small, like for us is like, it's again, God's work, you know, and like that's, you know, we have people in our position, we have stories like this for days, you know, and not even our own personal stories, but like what we see on a daily basis from the people that we interact with, you know, and I'm proud to say my sister's, you know, still sober. She's out in Arizona and you know, uh, meth was her drug of choice.

And you know, you want to talk about trauma. Disgusting. I can't even like, you know, my mom did me a favor by leaving me. I was blessed beyond belief and what my sister had to go through. I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. That's crazy. But I know she's in the position that we were in. And I tell her this every time I talk to her, I say, Tammy, you need to surround yourself with good people. You need to do this thing that they're suggesting, the steps. You need to go out and find other women that are in this position that have time. You need to latch onto them because you're going to have, you're going to be in a position

where you're going to run into another Tammy and then it's your responsibility to help that person. Like you have a story that people need to hear, but in order for that to happen, you have to, you have to, you have to do the deal. You know, do you guys think there is a correlation between the level of addiction that somebody has or goes through to the level of trauma that they suffered from? Definitely. There's a lot of self-medicating from that. I mean, there's a physiological response. I mean, even when I talk about my own trauma, like I've gotten better at it,

when I mentioned myself, I still get this knot in my stomach. I feel physically, I get nervous, I start shaking. And you know, I'm better at working my way through it now, but there absolutely is. And going back to what I said earlier about victims don't stay sober, I'll explain it like this. I was 10 years old. What part did I play in being molested as a kid? Right, tough, tough, not being a victim in that situation, right? Everybody I know told me none, right? And then I had this guy that specialized in this. He sat

me down. He was in sobriety also. He was a therapist up in Minnesota and this is the first time I'd ever gotten to really talk about it. And I remember him telling me, no, Ben, you played a part and I was so offended. And this goes back to, I'd rather step on your toes than step on your grave. He said, the part that you played was allowing that man to hold you hostage for the next 18 years. Oh, yeah. Right? Now, don't get me wrong. It's taken a lot of work to get through it. But, and I'm sad to say this, but it's the truth because I see it with other addicts and alcoholics and again, I'm just here to speak the truth. There was a point in time where I weaponized

my trauma, like against my parents. You let this happen to me. This is why I smoke crack and this is why I'm going to continue to do it. I'm high right now? That's your fault. Look what you let happen to me. Man, I love my parents to death.

They did the best they could. They thought they were providing me with an opportunity. They would never do anything intentionally like that. But me being the drug addict, I love my parents to death. They did the best they could. They thought they would provide me with an opportunity. They would never do anything intentionally like that. But me being the drug addict, I weaponized that. And going back to it, that's my story with it. I'm not saying everybody does that, but the level of trauma and life experiences absolutely plays a part.

Whether it's through the physiological or whether you're doing like I did or staying the victim, we have to work through this stuff. I want to just throw it out there real quick. The way that I've worked through it for me, there's therapies. We talked about this on our episode, like EMDR, stuff along those lines. For me, I found like working my way through my trauma, the first time I shared it in detail with another person that needed to hear it because they were a victim too, was the first time I was able to take something that was so painful and was always hurting me.

I took a liability and turned it into an asset and trying to connect with them. Right? And for me, I found purpose in that. I went through this experience, so now I'm going to use it to help other people. Now who controls the narrative? I do, right? I'm no longer the victim.

I'm owning this and I'm going to use it for good. That's what's worked for me psychologically. Probably very healing. Yes. I want to say one thing on the trauma thing. Um, you know, Ben and I, we're surrounded by therapists all the time, which is cool, but also can be annoying because we're not

therapists and Ben and I sometimes try to not look at things through the therapeutic or we're asking our therapist, Hey, can you possibly not look through the therapeutic lens right now and just look through like, you know, the drug addict lens, you know, what I want to say about the trauma thing. We see a lot, not a lot of times, but like caution people to don't use your trauma as an excuse. A lot of times people, you know, we, we talked about the little T and big T trauma on our episode.

Um, I've seen people use that as almost a, just a justification almost. Yeah. Justification. Or like what Ben said, I think like a weapon, I'm sure a lot of people, I think that's actually probably more common than it is not that somebody that's gone through that has found a way, especially if they've lived with it for decades or longer, to use it to manipulate, to serve them in another way. It's whether that is to serve themselves in coping as they feed themselves with drugs or to make other people feel awful and better or to get out of

situations when you're guilty. Like, I'm sure it's probably more common than it's not that people weaponize that. It is, and I think that, and we talk about this all the time, it's one thing to recognize that you have trauma and be willing to work on it, but it's another thing, like, what's the action behind? You know, once you get through,

anybody can complete treatment, you know, and go through the therapeutic process. That's relatively easy. Um, but what are you going to do moving forward? We could take you through all the trauma work and the EMDR and the CBT and the DBT and all this stuff, but like simultaneously, what are the things that you're going to, that you're going to implement after you, uh, leave treatment. You know, like when rubber really meets the road, because a lot of times people aren't afforded the opportunity

to sit in front of a licensed mental health counselor once or twice a week and really like go through EMDR. I mean, not everybody has access to that, but 99% of people that are addicts in some capacity have trauma. So you mean to tell me like, it's not a prerequisite. Like the only way that you're going to get sober is to work through your trauma because not everybody has access to the proper tools and resources to work through their trauma and they get clean and they get sober.

And it's oftentimes, you know, from our experience is going to be through some sort of 12 step program, celebrate recovery, you know, something along those lines. There's many ways, there's many opportunities to get clean and sober, but like, that's what I mean by that. The trauma, a lot of times people hinge on that and it's like, well, if I can't work through my trauma, then I'm doomed. And it's like, no, but I'm also not saying to subscribe to like the David Goggins aspect and just go run, you know, the bad water and you

know, like we've seen that too, where people go the opposite direction. They don't even want to touch that. Like I know it's there, but it's nothing that a barbell can't handle. And it's like, well, wait a second, you know, macho man, like humble yourself a little bit, be willing to look at it.

If someone's listening right now and they're like, they want help, what's one of the best first steps they could take? You know, we get this question all the time. I think that there's two different components to this. If somebody's listening and they struggle with, and they're struggling with addiction There's two different components to this. If somebody's listening and they struggle with, and they're struggling with addiction and like they're listening to this episode, maybe, you know, there's some sort of mustard seed that's planted here.

Just reach out to us, you know, or anybody and let's just have a conversation about it. Because I think that that's one of the, you know, when you look at the stages of change, pre-contemplation being, I don't care, I don't, I don't even recognize that there's a problem. Well, maybe they listened to this episode and they're now in the contemplation stage, that's it. That's a huge jump. You know, it's now something to recognize, but you got to do something. You got to take some sort of action before you go back to the pre-contemplation stage, reach out to somebody, whether it's us or I would venture to say that there's

not a person on this planet that can't in relatively short amount of time, find somebody in their inner circle that is sober, you know, and talk to them about their experience What they did now if you're a family member and you have somebody in your life that is addicted Reach out Talk to somebody talk to a professional like Ben saying a lot of times we see You know family members try and handle it themselves when now you got an emotionally charged conversation You have one outcome that you're looking for and your addict loved one family members try and handle it themselves. Well, now you've got an emotionally charged conversation.

You have one outcome that you're looking for in your addict loved one. They don't even know that this conversation is coming, most likely. So like we tell people all the time, do all the legwork upfront, because when it is time for you to have that conversation with your loved one, you want to have all your ducks in a row, because if you don't, you know, imagine, you know, Adam, I convince you to go to treatment or go get help in some capacity. And you're like, okay, I'm ready. And then I'm like, Ben, we got to figure out what we're going to do.

Okay. He was ready to get help. Now what you're going to be like, Oh, you know what? On second thought, I changed my mind. So let's have all this stuff done beforehand. I don't know what you would say about it. Yeah, along the same lines. I mean, Justin asked us earlier what we do different, like how we were competing against

the broker stuff. What it comes down to, be a human being. Like tie it into your question, Sal. Reach out to somebody that's been through it, has experience with it. You know, what it comes down to, again, and we've said it quite a few times, human connection. There's a saying in the big book that we live on a plane of inspiration. Put yourself in a situation where, you know, you're inspiring someone, but you're also being inspired by watching them battle this, right? Like, surrounding yourself, and like they taught me

in school for instance, you're going through the professional side of this. We were both in the addictions program, becoming addictions counselors. We had one teacher basically tell us, don't put a family picture on your desk. The client doesn't need to know anything about you. BS, man. If you think that you're alone, you are not.

You just got to get out of your comfort zone and reach out to people. There's for families, there's Al-Anon, for addicts and alcoholics, there's alcoholics anonymous, narcotics anonymous. Heck, call a treatment center hotline. There's tons of sober people on Instagram, YouTube, start somewhere,

pick up the phone, talk to somebody. Because the way that I start off conversations with people on the phone when they call us, I say, hey, if I can't help you directly, I'm going to do the best I can to help you indirectly. I'll point you to the right person that can help you in your situation. And I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on everything, but I know a lot of experts on just about everything. So. Good deal. Pick up that phone, call somebody. Or at least start listening to real recovery talk. Yeah, well, I was going to say, Ben, that was a good opportunity for you to plug.

Yeah, no. No, it's true. It's true. I mean, because like you said, I think a lot of people could be right on the fence and maybe they just need to hear more, more conversations like this in that direction before they make the next real step. Definitely. Definitely. It's been taboo and a lot, you know, a lot, especially, you know, a lot of times people want to just shy away from it, shy away from the conversation, put my head in the sand, pretend like it's not here, guarantee it's there

somewhere. You know, somebody in your, you know, Adam, you shared a couple scenarios, addiction has affected your near family. You know, we all have those stories. It's just what separates us is like, who's willing to bring awareness to it and do something about it. So, you know, and what you guys are doing, honestly, it's in the fitness space, but we've been listening to you guys for years.

I tell him what you said to me. This is how he got me to listen to you guys. Oh, that's ought to be good. So no, I mean, obviously we're both into fitness, exercise, nutrition, et cetera. But he said to me the first time, because I've listened to other podcasts and YouTube channels, and he's like, no, Ben, I listen to them for the other stuff that they talk about. They talk about their families. They talk about the principles that they live by. And that's what attracted, honestly, us to you guys was the way that, again, you're open, authentic human beings.

And I hear it time and time again, like you've talked about people getting into your space for the wrong reasons to make money. When in reality, you guys put your clients first, they got, you watch them get results. You're inspired by them. And now you're trying to help people on this platform in the same manner.

That's why, that's why I wanted you guys on the show. Uh, I think, um, you learned that as a trainer, because being who you are allows you to influence them and connect with them in real ways. Otherwise you're just some trainer. And I met with you guys and these guys are legit. We met before, loved it, love what you guys are doing.

I hope we send people your way who need your help. Absolutely. Yeah. I appreciate you guys coming on the show, man. You guys are doing great. And sharing your story. I appreciate man. I hope everybody checks you guys out so yeah yeah thanks again guys. Appreciate it. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super bundle at mindpumpmedia.com.

The RGB Super Bundle includes maps anabolic, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love

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