Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2463: Sometimes to Get Leaner You've Got to Eat More (Listener Coaching)

Episode Date: November 8, 2024

In this episode of Quah (Q & A), Sal, Adam & Justin answer four Pump Head questions drawn from last Sunday’s Quah post on the @mindpumpmedia Instagram page.  Mind Pump Fit Tip: Sometimes to get leaner you’ve got to eat more. (2:06) Navigating the seasons of all relationships. (12:52) Shilajit is sweeping the nation! (22:52) The online fitness coaching space is full of charlatans. (26:19) Early access to Mind Pump’s Black Friday sale is here! (36:26) Who would win an ultramarathon, humans or animals? (41:22) Kids say and do the darndest things. (46:54) What age range do women report the best sex and orgasms? (51:36) Shout out: ‘Watch the guys build a program on IG LIVE 11/13 Livestream 6 PM (PST)’ @mindpumpmedia  (1:01:22) #Quah question #1 – Whenever I go into a bulk it only goes to my belly. Any tips or tricks to make it go to my muscles? (1:02:30) #Quah question #2 – What are your thoughts on calisthenics and combo resistance training? (1:05:59) #Quah question #3 – What do you think about the new trend of emphasizing long-lengthened partials? (1:09:06) #Quah question #4 – Should you do underhand or overhand barbell rows? What is the difference? (1:16:28) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit Organifi for the exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Promo code MINDPUMP at checkout for 20% off. ** Visit Paleovalley for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Bone Broth Protein - BOGO - Buy one get one free! Discount is now automatically applied at checkout 15% off your first order! ** EARLY ACCESS to the Black Friday Sale is open NOW! ** ALL MAPS Fitness Products 60% OFF. Coupon code BLACKFRIDAY. The code will expire on Sunday, December 1st. Each purchase enters you to win one of two 5-day stays at the Mind Pump Park City Vacation Home. Each winner will receive $1,000 cash for travel and food. Bundle purchase - 10 entries, Program purchase - 5 entries, ALL other MAPS purchases (mods, guides, etc.) - 1 entry. Winners will be announced and contacted in December. ** Mind Pump #2457: Four Mistakes That Destroy Your Metabolism Mind Pump Fitness Coaching - YouTube Tuesday Nov. 12 @ 4PM (PST) – TRAIN THE TRAINER WEBINAR SERIES : The Key for Personal Trainers to Retain Clients During the Holiday Season Mind Pump's First Ever Luxury Destination Human vs Animals Ultramarathon (100km) Tuttle Twins Book Series Yes, you can have better sex in midlife and in the years beyond Visit MASSZYMES by biOptimizers for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! **Promo code MINDPUMP10 at checkout** Mind Pump #2287: Bodybuilding 101- How to Bulk and Cut Building Muscle with Adam Schafer – Mind Pump TV The #1 Setup Cue For The Barbell And Dumbbell Row Exercise Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources People Mentioned Lewis Howes (@lewishowes) Instagram Mind Pump Fitness Coaching (@mindpumptrainers) Instagram Dr. Stephen Cabral (@stephencabral) Instagram  

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Right in today's episode, we answered listeners' questions. People wrote in, we got to pick some questions and answer them. But that was after an intro portion. Today's intro

Was 59 minutes long and that's what we talked about current events and family life and studies by the way If you want to write in a question that we can pick from go to Instagram at mind pump media Now this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is organified today. We talked about their Shilajit gummies This is high quality Shilajit. It's in gummy form. It's delicious. Go check them out. Get yourself 20% off. Go to organifi.com forward slash mind pump. Use the code mind pump to get that discount. This episode is also brought to you by Paleo Valley. Right now they have a buy one get one free bone broth protein deal. By the way this is the best tasting protein powder I've ever had in my life. Their chocolate tastes like chocolate donuts. It is amazing.

Of course it's high in collagen and it's made from grass fed beef bone broth. So it's high quality. Go check them out, get the buy one get one free hookup. Go to paleovalley.com forward slash mind pump. You'll get 15% off as well on your first order. Also it's early access to Black Friday. All maps, programs, all bundles, 60% off as well on your first order. Also, it's early access to Black Friday. All maps programs, all bundles 60% off. Also, if you get a bundle you'll get 10 entries to win. If you buy a program, we'll get 5 entries to win.

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and the entries to win a vacation at the MimePump Park City house. All right, back to the show. Sometimes to get leaner you have to eat more. It's true. A lot of times I'll train a client and the problem isn't that they're eating too much, it's that they're not eating enough. Here are the warning signs that you need to be the person or you are that person that needs to eat more to get leaner. What do you guys think they are? What are some of the red flags?

Oh, I... Stalled progress. Stalled progress is gonna be up there. Not getting stronger. Which we can... Their calories are already really low. That would be the biggest red flag for me, right? It's like you get that client and they have 20 pounds to lose.

You have them track their calories and it's like 1,500. Yeah. That's like, oh, we gotta fix this. We're already in a really low place. The truth is, and I know you're going to go through your signs, but later on in my career, I've found that this became the go-to for everybody no matter what. This became most of the rule, right?

Yeah, it just rarely ever, if ever. I'm trying to think or recall of a situation later on in the back half of my career that I got somebody who wanted to lose fat and the first thing I did was go into a cut. I don't think I ever did after that. I think once I figured out what- You got to build first.

Because most people, and obviously there's a bit of a bias, right? If you hire me as a trainer, you've probably already tried a lot of things on your own or tried other diets, tried other workout. And so I'm getting you after you've probably already tried a lot of things on your own or tried other diets, tried other workout. And so I'm getting you after you've exhausted all your own resources and now you're finally going, okay, I'm going to pay somebody to help me do this. And so there is a bit of a bias that I get people that it's rarely, rarely ever did I get a client who I look at their diet and they're eating, you

know, 8,000 calories of McDonald's every day. And they're like, how do I need this 50 pounds? And I'm like, oh, cool, this will be easy. You just switch out the McDonald's for some chicken breasts and some broccoli, and we're gonna get ripped, right? That never happens. What you get is somebody who is struggling with weight loss, have for years or most of their life, and exhausted all their own resources,

and they go, Adam, this is what I'm eating. And you assess it, and you go, oh my God, we're 50 pounds overweight, and you're eating 2,000 calories a day. Well for people listening, it was like, okay, this doesn't make sense. Okay, in order to lose weight, or lose body fat, or I will say that, in order to lose body fat, your body has to burn more calories than you take in, or you have to take in less calories than you burn, but there's two sides of that equation. One of them is the calories you take in, the other one is the calories you burn. And the calories you burn side, there's

two ways to approach that. One is to try to move more, the other is try to influence your metabolism so it burns more calories on its own. That's the approach that we're talking about. That is the best, most sustainable approach because if I can give you a faster metabolism, like right now, if I could snap my fingers and fix obesity, that would be the one thing I would do, would be give everybody a really fast metabolism. Like your metabolism wants to burn more calories. And in order to do that, we wanna build muscle,

we wanna build strength, and in order to build muscle and strength, you have to feed the muscle and strength. You have to give it the nutrients it needs to build. And this means, oftentimes, you need to eat a little bit more than what you're eating and definitely eat more protein. So if you're, like a lot of people, struggling with weight, you're trying to lose weight, and you've just, you've gone through the cycle

of eating less, doing lots of cardio, eating less, doing lots of cardio, and you get some success, but then you plateau and you get out of it, and you're like, screw it. And you've done this cycle three, four, five, six times. A better approach is let's get my metabolism to speed up. How do I do that? Build muscle and feed myself more. And now this was a difficult thing to convince clients of early on.

Oh yeah. I mean, even initially when you kind of dropped that as the opening statement, like I could just picture people what defies the law of thermodynamics? Like I don't understand. And I think that that's just been so conditioned to the general public so much that like we just need to burn calories and we need to immediately address what the biggest problem is, is losing the weight. When in fact, like building the body up and really like setting yourself up for long term success so much better.

Well there's a bit of a misconception around fat loss and body fat percentage also. So you're right, we're not defying the law of thermodynamics when it comes to in order to lose pounds of fat, you need to be in a caloric deficit, right? That's true. That's science, it's a fact. But it is not necessarily true for reducing your body fat percentage.

So you can though, however, take somebody who is at 20% body fat and bring them down to say 16% body fat and not lose weight, not lose weight. They can build, they can add muscle and put nothing but good lean body mass on. And their body fat percentage will go down. So inevitably changing their, I'll give a simple example. This is a ridiculous example but it makes the math easy right? If somebody was a hundred pounds of lean body mass, so you know muscle, bone, organ, like non-body fat weight, so a hundred pounds and they had 20 pounds of body fat on their body, they

would be 20% body fat. If that person gained a hundred of muscle, wouldn't happen, but again, this is just easy math. If they gained 100 pounds of muscle, they'd be 200 pounds with 20 pounds of body fat. They are now 10% body fat. Okay, so your percentage of body fat is a percentage of your whole body weight. So if you do this right, if you do this right, what ends up happening is either your weight goes up a little bit or it doesn't go up at all, you lose some body fat, gain some muscle, or it goes up and your percentage actually goes down and now you have a faster metabolism.

But oftentimes this is the case. Oftentimes when people are struggling with weight, it's oftentimes they've tried losing it many times. They've tried the burn and the cut process many, many times. Their metabolic rates aren't that great anymore. They're not burning very many calories. Their metabolism has now slowed down as a result of that. What we need to do is we need to set them up for long-term success. Could I get someone to lose weight by having them cut their calories in half and handcuffing them to a treadmill? I could. They're going

to also lose muscle. They're going to slow their metabolism down even more, and it's not going to be sustainable. They're going to gain it back because they live in a world where they're surrounded by food, and they're not going to be handcuffed to a treadmill all the time, or at least I'm sure they wouldn't want to. So why don't we approach this with a let's boost your metabolic rate instead. Let's speed up the metabolism. Let's add some lean tissue, which by the way is good for you. Muscle is where you store glycogen so you have better insulin sensitivity. It organizes your hormones in a way to where it's more of a youthful hormone

profile. It adds mobility. If you gain five pounds of good muscle, you're more mobile because you're stronger, you feel better. It looks different on your body. Five pounds of muscle on your body, especially if you sculpt it and target the muscle, means you have better shape. So it's not like I gain five pounds of muscle and it goes in my belly. That's what body fat does. If I gain five pounds of muscle and I'm training the areas I want to develop, I'm just going to have better developed areas that I've worked on. So it looks different, it looks better.

Speed's up in metabolism, but you gotta feed it to do so. And in order to do that, you gotta sometimes, oftentimes, eat a little more. Now, of course, we wanna eat calories that are coming from whole natural foods. We wanna make sure it's high protein, so there's more within the context of that diet. But yeah, you gotta bump your calories,

oftentimes, to get yourself leaner. You can't just keep cutting your calories. You own a pair of handcuffs at home? No, it's for the treadmill. I was curious, yeah. No. Not to mention the sustainability. And then also the psychological part that goes into this.

I mean, man, I don't care how metabolically healthy you are or not, when you reduce calories, you're hungry. And that feeling of like, oh my gosh, I don't care how healthy or not you are, that doesn't go away. And I always remind people that when you're in a cut, and they're like, yeah, I'm really hungry. Yeah, that's normal. That's a very normal feeling that a lot of people.

And that can be tough, especially when you're not seeing the results you want, versus telling a client, hey, I want you to eat when you're hungry. I want to feed you, but I want to make the right choices. We're going to feed this metabolism. If you're strength training, we're choosing whole foods, you're hitting your protein intake, I rarely have to tell a client that I need them to limit their calories. When I have to have them to limit their calories because they're eating processed food, they're

eating junk, they're eating out of bounds, they're not choosing whole foods. But if I tell them, listen, if you're hungry, I want you to eat, just make sure the meal is protein centric and it's whole foods. But hey, eat if you're hungry. And as long as we are strength training in conjunction with that, I have never got a client fat. They have only built muscle and only sped their metabolism up. So, but remember that is not like, oh, just go eat whatever you want. It's no, it's eat within the context of whole foods and prioritizing protein and you don't have to feel like you're restricting and you're starving the body, especially if you pair that with solid

programming. By the way, the way that I would have to sell this to people, because I wouldn't tell people right off the gates, like, I'm just going to make you eat and work. So it'd be like, I'm not hiring you. That doesn't make any sense. I would say to them, we're gonna do strength training, and I want you to hit this protein number. And what I knew about that was they were gonna have to eat more in order to hit that protein number. They were gonna have to chase something

that they're not normally used to chasing. And they would always come back and say, my God, I feel like I'm eating so much food. And I'm like, perfect, let's just stay here for a second, and let's continue to strength train. And then they would build muscle. They build muscle, they build muscle, they get stronger. They would notice, people would comment and say things to them like you're losing weight. And they'd come to me and say, you know, it's weird. My coworkers keep telling me a lot. I look like

I lost 10 pounds, but the weight on the scale hasn't moved. And I'm like, well, your body composition is changing. You're looking leaner. You probably are leaner, but you've gained some muscle. Let's just stay the course. And then you get this amazing snowball effect. You guys remember this? When you're working with a client and you're looking at probably three, four months in of them trusting you following the process, and then all of a sudden they come to you

and they're like, I don't know what's happening, I'm just getting leaner. This is really weird, like I've normally had to struggle for this to happen, and I'm just, I'm getting leaner. It feels like my body fat is falling off my body, what is happening? What a great place to be, and a much more sustainable place because metabolic, their metabolism is humming, and they can get away with the weekends, you know,

going out and going out to dinner and going on vacations, versus the restrict model where, you know, you have one week vacation and you've gained five pounds because your metabolism was so slow. Makes it really, really challenging. Instead of forcing it, you're working with your body. You're working with your body. It's so much more of like a freedom to that.

But again, I think people are just unaware that this is really the best formula for you to apply, you know, right from the very beginning, even with, you know, the urgency to lose weight. It's the psychological piece that makes this so. Very psychological. Speaking of the psychology, I got a funny story for you guys.

So have you guys ever seen those studies where like if a man says hi to a woman versus if a woman says hi to a man, the perception that they have, whether or not the person is like, oh, she likes me. Yeah, yeah, like with the guy's like assuming that he likes her. What is it? It's the stripper loves me condition. So there's, they've done studies on this, right? So like men, if a woman just says hi to him or anything, then he's oftentimes going to assume like,

oh, she totally likes me. And women don't assume that at all. But men almost always will assume like, oh, she likes me. It's because we deal with more rejection. Yeah, maybe. And I think the theory is that we think that if that was true, that we would think the opposite. Exactly.

Well, if they're coming at you, they're being nice. And they're like, hi. And they're going out of their way to say hi. She's not. This is going to be easy. Yeah. That's my end. She's not telling me. It's like they go away. I feel like though you would think because we were rejected so much that we would actually think that like, oh, she probably does probably like every other chance. Yeah. Chances are 80% don't like me and they turn me down.

So why would she be different? It's the state of mind that you're in. Well, there's evolutionary theory around this is that men are going to, it's better for them to swing the bat as many times as possible, even though they're going to strike out a lot, because then they'll always, there's always going to be that one that might actually connect. So it's better for us to assume that they like,

because that's evolutionary theory. But anyway, it's just funny, and it's totally true. And my wife and I got in a fight last night over this, because she were, I'm coming out of the room I just put my son to bed and she comes out of the shower and she's half naked and I'm like hey okay and I go up try give her a hug and she hugged me real quick and I'm assuming like you're half naked you're hugging me yeah this green light we're going to have sex right now.

Big buttons. This is gonna happen right now. And then she's like, oh no, no, hold on, I gotta go do a couple things. And she walks away. Immediately I feel rejected, like what just happened? So I sit down, she senses the tone, the change in me. And this is a common thing with us, right?

I assume, maybe expect like something's gonna happen. And she's like, why did you get all mad? I'm like, well, I feel rejected. So we had a big fight about it. Oh honey if you hug me first of all if you're just half naked. Bro you gotta flip the script bro. You gotta flip the script. That's what I do. Last night we had so funny. You had you had that the we had a similar it wasn't an argument but it was like Katrina I obviously I'm feeling good I'm back in shape right and I've talked

about on the podcast before that Katrina's like I'm feeling good. I'm back in shape, right? And I've talked about it on the podcast before that Katrina's like, I always know when you feel good because all of a sudden you're brushing your teeth naked, you're walking downstairs naked. So this 100% is where I- Just a shirt on. Yeah, yeah, right now I'm Winnie the Pooh. I'm Winnie Pooh in the house, you know what I'm saying?

All over the place, right? So 100% I'm that guy, right? I didn't need that. I didn't need that. Well. Just bottom butt cheek shielding. And so I do that,, right? I didn't need that music at all. Just bottom butt cheeks. She believed it. And so I do that, you know?

And she walks, and I walk by her. She's like folding laundry, stuff like that. And I'm walking through the house, you know? It's like six o'clock, and I'm, you know, ass naked or whatever it is. She reaches and just grabs me. And I was like, hey, hey, what are you doing? She's like, you're walking around naked like that?

What are you doing? I get it. Yeah, yeah. But then I do the opposite, play hard to get, like, no, stop it, don't touch me. You know what I'm saying? Stop that. So yeah, you gotta warm me up.

That's what I say to her. You gotta warm me up. My wife is like, just because I hug you and kiss you or just because I say hi to you, she's like going down a list of all the things. I'm like, those all don't mean that you wanna have sex with me? She's like, no, oh man. I do think there's this weird, I mean, okay Justin,

you've been married for a long time, so you've probably recalled this. It does, at least I feel like this way in my relationship with Katrina, we've been together for a long time too, like it ping-pongs back and forth, at least in our relationship, even though there's been times where one of us,

and I just feel like whoever wants it less, the other person naturally wants it more. I think it just kind of happens. It's like it doesn't matter who that- There's like seasons as I like to call it. Yeah, there's just there's been times in our in our relationship where she has a much higher sex drive at that time than I do and then so and just me simply not wanting as much as her makes her want it even more and then vice versa when the other when the role is reversed when I'm in that high sex drive and she may

not be. And I think in our relationship, more of it has to do more than sex. Like as far as our, you know, female male has more to do with what's going on in our life. Like for me, uh, work stress, financial stuff, like that will, that'll kill my libido. Yeah. Yeah. That'll kill my libido. You know what I'm saying? Anytime I'm like drifting off and like continuously thinking about something work wise, creative wise, like, you know, kid what like I'm just like, not there. She's just like, Hey, remember me? Yeah, it's like, and, and, you know, I mean, that typically happens for like a period of time where I'm just like kind of focused like I get really like fixated on Accomplishing something you have like a very specific project or goal I'm like I had to do this and then and then that's usually when the roles flip But like yeah, it's especially the very beginning the relationship It's so funny cuz I'm like I always try to remind her I'm like you remember like how that was like I was like

You know, come on, man. I got good work You were like that, okay Like how that was like, and I was like, you know, come on, man. I got good work. You were like that. Okay. Maybe it's me right now, but you know, like whatever. I think I wonder, so how many people do you guys think? And I, and I'm curious if you guys really analyze this in your own relationship. I definitely do. And I'm very, very aware of this. I haven't had this happen just like two nights ago where, um nights ago where it's eight o'clock or so at night.

Max is already down for bed. She's coming out of the shower and stuff like that. And because I'm kind of sitting on the bed waiting for her, I get my phone out and I'm in emails and I'm all of a sudden reading an email or whatever of that and it's work related. And now I'm like all of a sudden, and it can literally take my like,

and so unintentionally, it's not like, had I just left it alone and not done anything like that and just let myself sit and ponder in my own thoughts and maybe even watch her, what she's doing, I am so much in the mood and into whatever it is that we're doing or I'm already thinking about how the night's gonna go. Where if I go over and I make that switch mentally

and it's like that, it's a literally switch over the other way to work. It automatically kills it. And same thing I noticed with her too. Like if she grabs her phone in the bedroom, I can tell a huge shift in the energy sexually around our relationship. It's wild. That's gotta be normal. That's a normal thing. I know. So I think so too. And so, but how many people evaluate that? Like,

cause I think it's healthy if you recognize that in yourself and in your spouse, that in a good partnership and a good relationship, especially if you're trying to work on that area, that you communicate that and you say, hey, let's commit that when we get into the room, we don't, no more phones. Do not touch the phone, do not touch the laptop, don't.

I think a bigger issue too is just time, because when you don't have, especially when you the laptop. I think a bigger, a big issue too is just, is time. Because when you don't have, especially when you don't have kids, little kids, just listen, all this time for spontaneous connection to happen, there's all this spontaneous connection that can happen. But then when you have little kids and stuff's going on, it doesn't happen as spontaneously. So, and people don't like this, but you have to schedule it.

You have to plan, Hey, we're gonna have time at this time together, just the two of us. It doesn't have to guarantee that we're gonna get intimate, but we have to make that time. Otherwise, if you wait for the spontaneous magic to happen, it just ain't gonna happen, especially with little kids. It just ain't gonna happen. Well, see, I don't even think you have to go that far.

I think you just have to go as far as not allowing yourself to be distracted by other things. That's where the problem is. If you just allow the space, even with a, when you have lots of kids, so that the problem is when you have a lot of kids and you're really busy and you have a lot of work, then you have this moment at seven to eight o'clock when you're your wife and you finally do have potential loans and then you get distracted. That's all bad. If you just create the space, different story. You know, another issue for me is that if I know,

if she's like, yeah, later tonight, whatever, that's all I can think about. And then I become, and then I'm annoying because I'm like, I'm like hovering over her like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ready, are you ready? See, I'm the opposite. And she's like, can you stop bringing me on?

See, I'm the opposite with that. I'm like a chick when it comes to that stuff. I don't want to be like forecasted that we're having sex. I'd rather feel like it was spontaneous at the moment. If she tells me, oh, you're going to get tonight, it doesn't make me go like that. No, not at all. I'm the opposite.

I feel it's, again, I think it's that feeling of, you know they want it so bad, then it makes you want it less. Not knowing that, the suspense of that, there's something more sexy or sexual about that than the forecasting. I stopped doing that because then like she'll go to sleep and then I'm like, ah, yeah, yeah. And so it's just like, you know, then it's been working out better to just like stay busy and like, okay, might have that might not happen. You know, the randomness will, I gotta, I gotta get

better. Yeah, if you talk about it, you have to know the same thing, right? If you bring it up, it's worse, right? You tell her hey, I want it tonight or this that's like oh you may as well not kiss and I get all handsy all day That's it. You know, it's like a pain in her ass. See like it's just it's too much, you know, and I'm like, yeah I obsess over it. So yeah, I definitely have those Yeah, how did they do I don't know how like I had like, I gotta calm down. How did they do, I don't know how, like I have family members, right, like older family members, like my grandparents generation, where they lived in a room. They lived in a room with eight kids.

I'm like, how did you get the other seven kids? You're all in one room. You don't even have a bathroom, you have an outhouse. Is that what you guys did? Like what did you guys do? Did you just like run around the corner? They heard snoring. Yeah, how did they, you know? You time it. Yeah. No, I don't know.

How did they do it? They had so many kids. I mean, I think you figured it out. You get creative. That's true. And maybe there's something about the fact that you both can't because of those situations that make you both want it more, you know?

Because you're restricted because of your environment and your situation, therefore there's this equal pool of like oh god I don't know if we can or and so maybe they both are thinking about more so it's more likely to happen I don't know obviously it's pretty hey speaking to family you know what the number one product that we promote that now I'm getting more and more more and more my family members that are contacting I know what it is because I'm getting the same thing on mine. It's Sheila G. Yeah. It's because of the ads.

It's the ads. Yes, the ads. I've had several people that have called me. And these are cousins that I don't normally talk to, and then they'll run into me and be like, dude, I got the Sheila G, I saw your commercial. That's how I always know that Organifi is doing a really good job with their ads,

is that when I get a call or a message from a family member that is not a normal one to call me, you know what I'm saying, about a product or a thing, and they're always like this, hey, is this the real deal? Is this bullshit? Like I saw this, like, or, yeah, yeah.

Is this bullshit? Or do you have extra of this? Like that's what I get. And I'm just like, oh wow, they must be really pumping these ads because this is not a normal family member that would call me over. But they like it.

They're all telling me they like it. They notice energy from it. One of my cousins said his libido got boosted from it or whatever, but it's like been like four family members. It doesn't last around here. I do find it's interesting that, you know, okay, we talked about this way back in the CBD days, like the fitness space tends to do this, right?

Where, and by the way, CBD has incredible value too, but once something gains a little bit of attraction and then it's like, then everybody starts to eat. Like I see Shilajit stuff everywhere now. I mean, we've already been sent, I've got a bar of soap. It's not a new- Kind of bar of soap that it's got in it. I've got like-

It is like CBD, remember CBD had everything. Yes. They're like CBD soap, CBD book to you. Yes, there's Shilajit everything now. I'm seeing all these products that are- Shilajit, it's funny too, because it's not a new- It's not a new- Right, it's been around forever, right?

It's been used for a long time in Ayurvedic medicine. So why so popular right now? I, you know, I don't know. A recent study maybe? You know, there's a lot of studies. The studies on Shilajit have been around for a long time. So it's not like a new study came out. There's a lot of studies on it that show its benefits.

So it's benefit for hormone balance, uh, energy, um, fertility. Um, there's some athletic performance enhancing benefits, but those studies have been around for a bit. It was just the delivery of it, you know, like changing it into a gummy is, is kind of like, are you seeing all the gummy stuff? Yeah. Dude, the gummy thing is like full throttle. Yesen over. Yes. I mean, when it first started and you started to see this in vitamins for kids and whatnot and then, you know, the way that they would like continuously take it, you're like, oh, well, I know they're going to take it.

And so it's like, why would adults be any different? Well, you know, they felt what they were finding is that adults were buying kids gummy. And they were taking their, yeah. That's what they found. Yeah, it was one of those guys. So now it's all over the place. I mean, I've seen it for every product. Every product now is their change. Which I think it's so weird they took this long. Yeah.

I think it's weird that it's taken this long for that. It's one of those duh. Yeah, it's a very. It's only the real zealots that are like, oh, I'm going to get some sugar. And I don't need that extra bit. with but like really is it that much? Well, I guess I guess there's that I mean it's it's probably a little more expensive right to create it in gummy form I imagine it is but it's also the products a little bit more

You know the biggest challenge in the supplement industry is the biggest same is this is by the way the same Challenge in the pharmaceutical industry. Yeah, it's just People studies that show we are more likely to give our dog its medication than ourselves. Yeah, people forget and they don't take it. No, I bought that bottle but I stopped taking it. I've heard antibiotics, like, people don't go through the full cycle.

You're supposed to finish it all the way through. Yep, yep, 100%. Speaking of our industry, by the way, you know what's starting to annoy me? Really bad. And it annoyed me for a while, but now it's getting a fever pitch. And they target, you know, our favorite people

in the fitness industry. And it's these online fitness coaching, coaching companies that coach fitness coaches, that teach them how to make more money, that teach them how to do this, how to do that, whatever. And there's a lot of charlatans that are out now. It's riddled. Terrible, and some of the approach, some of the,

oh, it's making me so mad, and some of the approach. That's why we got in this space, I mean, let's be honest. It's very, I mean, it's been very MLMS. I actually don't think it's anything new. I think it's new to the medium, but it's very MLM. I remember talking to Lewis Howes back in the days, and this was actually how he got his big start and actually his big attraction was back when LinkedIn. So what year was LinkedIn popular? When it was created?

This was at least 10 years ago. Oh, God, way more than that. Way more than than 10 years ago that company's probably closer to 20 years. Yeah it's like 20 years old. Find out Doug what is that? 2002. Yeah so over 20 years over 20 years so when LinkedIn was brand new he was part of these these people that would get together these groups and they would create like these mastermind mastermind s type of groups and so this formula has been around forever. And it really, what a lot of them do is they, I mean, they, there's some, there's some valuable

information in some of these, these groups and they, they share books that you're reading and that, but nothing is groundbreaking. Nothing isn't, you couldn't Google online. And then really what ends up happening is they all teach each other how to do the same model. It's like the business coaching is really to teach you how to sell business coaching to everybody else.

And that's the part that I think is, is that, that is for me. It's frustrating. And a lot of these, uh, people who are teaching, you know, they're doing these courses and they're teaching other trainers have never really trained people, they've never really been successful trainers themselves. Maybe they were trainer for a year or maybe six months and now all of a sudden they're teaching. Like if you haven't trained people for 10 years

and done a damn good job doing it, you have no business teaching coaches how to be better coaches. You just don't. And if you're teaching, and then one of the models that we started becoming privy to, one of the reasons why we had to sever ties with certain people is they were teaching coaches

how to build these businesses with other coaches under them, generating lots of revenue with such slim margins that they were generating half a million dollars in revenue and making 80,000 or 60,000 dollars a year when they could have done it by themselves. Just have all this headache to build on whatever. It sounds enticing to make that kind of revenue,

but the overall profit they're bringing home was slim. And now what you've done is created a crazy amount of work in management with these other people that you've hired. And it's all based off these 30 day challenges. The brilliance behind it and why it works and it's so successful is because somebody who does it, so let's say you pay $5,000 for said coaching course or whatever and I teach you this way to create, drum up some attention and create some sort of a challenge that drives

X amount of revenue. All they need to do is show that person how to make $6,000, which is $1,000 more than what they paid for this course. And people, regardless if they stick with it, regardless if they build a business off of it, they go, well, I made more than- They justify it. Yeah, they justify it. And then therefore it doesn't get as bad of a wrap as it probably should. And the unfortunate part is a lot of these young trainers that fall into this, they fall into this as the model in order to be very successful versus really

putting a lot of energy and focus on chasing mastery and being good at your trainer, being good at your craft and that, and that's not sexy to sell. I mean, that's probably one of the Achilles heels to our trainer coaching program is that it's centered around being a good coach, which is not something I can show you in 30 days. No. It's not something that you're even going to learn in probably six months.

It's a practice and it's something that you work at your craft and you improve in over years. And then hopefully after thousands of hours, you've now become a master at your craft and you've built a really solid base. And not to mention, if you're a coach and you actually do have a passion for fitness and you're new and you end up following

some of their advice, and so what do you do? You do your 30 day challenges and every so often, you gotta drum up new business with another 30 day challenge. You start to lose your passion for fitness. You start to be like, God, I don't wanna keep running these challenges. I don't wanna keep doing this just so I can, like this doesn't feel good.

You're a momentum hustler. Yes, you're a momentum hustler. You're slinging a bunch of promises, and eventually you don't feel good. You don't feel good about it. And so you end up stopping. I've met coaches like this. Like I don't wanna do another 30 day challenge

to try to get more business know, more, more business. This is just not, it doesn't feel right. It's a very enticing model because we live in this instant gratification time, right? And, and it's a quick way to instantly see a difference in revenue. It's like, I don't know, very much so our approach to helping trainers is the same approach that we had with helping clients. It's the same reason why we had challenges with selling maps programs rather than games because it wasn't this sexy 30-day transform your body and we're showing pictures like that. It was, hey, teaching people the philosophy around nutrition and

exercise and fundamentals and that, hey, this is going to take a long time, but it's going to be worth it. If you take the time to learn this, to do the things the right way, that this could potentially change your life forever and it's going to be worth it. I feel the same, we have the same type of a conversation and approach with all of our trainers is that no, we don't have some, you know, click baity trick hack for you to all of a sudden 10X your revenue. Uh, but what we do have is a lot of incredible principles and

things that we've learned over decades of doing this, that we can help you get to a shortcut there. So instead of you having to hit a brick wall, we've hit those ten brick walls for you and then can share with you like, hey this is a better approach or this is how you handle this type of a challenge. But at the end of the day you still have to go put in the work, you still got to put the hours in, you still got to chase mastery and that's what's gonna make you a really good coach, not for a year or for a quarter, but you're going to build a career forever. And so, yeah, I just, we have a lot of that in Instagram and Facebook.

It's really popular to, to sell online coaching to coaches and, you know, teaching them basically bullshit. And I don't know if it will ever go away. And I think it's been around forever. Just we have a different medium now with Instagram and Facebook and YouTube. It's a very popular model. It's also again, why I know we waited a really long time before we even offered anything for trainers.

I think it was first, uh, we had to build that credibility with the free content and information that we gave to people and help trainers. Uh, and I think that was what we waited for, just like we waited to put out maps programs for the general population. We waited a really long time to create something for personal trainers. And it was waiting until we had built that credibility. Yes, it's like, it's, it's, it's just like this, like in the, when we were managing gyms, right, you had those trainers that had so much turnover with their clients.

Like they could make sales, but they would lose clients as fast as they'd sign them. And every month, every other month, they'd keep getting new business. You just knew, you just knew they weren't going to last. That's not a career. You're not really helping anybody. You're going to get tired of that. You're going to get burnt out and you're losing I mean I have a guarantee for you if you're a trainer or coach or aspiring one and you're listening to this

I challenge you whether you've hired someone like this or you're considering hiring someone this don't or Just show up and attend our free webinars every own free webinars that we're gonna provide and I guarantee you attend our free webinars, every free webinars that we're going to provide. And I guarantee you the information, the content that we give for free in these webinars will be as valuable or more valuable than the thousands of dollars that you're spending on these virtual coaches that are helping us. And that's my promise and commitment. And I, and I will continue,

we will continue to provide that kind of value until we do. So even if it's not the very first time, I guarantee you show up to enough of those by the end of say, 10 of those things that you've showed up to, you will have learned more, you have become a better coach and it'll be absolutely for free. Totally. And that to me is like, I mean, that's the way to do this is to show people by providing your, and it's not hard for us to do that because of how long we've

been doing this for it's like, there's an endless amount of content and value to provide and give to these coaches and trainers. What it is not is a quick hack or system to $10,000 in revenue. I'm not going to teach you that. Yeah. You know, that's actually there. Uh, I remember, um, who, I don't remember who we were talking to. Uh, but I remember Doug was there and they're cracking down on a lot of the claims out there

of people that are using that type of marketing strategy to claim you can make a certain amount of money by doing this because they know how powerful and enticing that is. And then it's like, how can you guarantee something like that? And so I know they're cracking down big time on people that are running in ads like that. So it's getting more challenging for the charlatans. And at the end of the day, the cream will always rise to the top. And it's just lack of integrity. Like I think if you've been training people for a decade, you obviously have proven you

really care about people. You really care about what you're doing and you're less likely to get into the ripoff game with other trainers and coaches because you respect them. Like when I talk to a trainer or a coach and I can see and I can hear that they're genuinely want to do this and they really love this, like I respect them. I don't want to rip them off.

I don't want to send them the wrong direction. I respect them because I did it. I did it for two decades, you know? And so I think that's the big- We need more of them too. That's the thing. And we want good quality ones out there. We don't want a bunch of hustlers just ripping off.

Garbage. Yeah, a bunch of garbage. So speaking of business and exciting and cool things that we're doing, something else that we're doing that we've never done before that I'm super pumped about. So every year, Black Friday is crazy. It's always the biggest month of the year for the business. Like, it's always the biggest, largest sale,

and the coolest things that we do at this time of the year. So it's always a great, a great month for us regardless. And this year, I mean, we're coming up on 10 years we've been in business. We're thinking of like, what are some cool things that we can do for our community, uh, outside of the typical Black Friday? And we decided that we were not one, but two different people will have the opportunity to win a free stay for five days, right Doug? Correct. At the Park City House, right? And then we'll also give vouchers for traveling, correct? Yeah, a thousand dollars each. So a thousand dollars for each of the winners. So basically cover flights and your stay at Park City. And the way that you'll get chosen by this is everything

that we do, everything from mods to bundles to single programs will give you entries. So during the Black Friday sale, when this goes live and we launch that every time- Well, this is early access actually. We're going to do early access to Black Friday as of this episode. Oh, it's starting now. Oh, sorry. Early access. So after the, okay, so this episode-

So it's 60% off everything. That's the Black Friday early access sale. And then if you get a bundle, you get 10 entries, you buy a program, you get five entries and everything else, mods, guides, et cetera, one entry. And that enters you to win the five day stay at the mine. And we'll end up, we'll choose two big winners at the end of the whole Black Friday run that we do.

And by the way, that house is optimized for health and fitness. So we have a gym in the garage, sauna, cold dip, you got like sleep systems on the beds, red light therapy, you got a theater in there. Oh yeah, and this will be something that you'll be, so by the way too, it's not like you'll have to fit it in our week, you'll have an opportunity to book it anytime within the next year, if you want to take

your family there for Christmas or a holiday or a good time in there or the ski season, something like that, it'll be an opportunity. You're talking about something that's like close to $1,000 a night to stay at this place. That's all covered, plus the expenses for you to get flights and stuff over there. So really, really cool.

Hopefully everybody gets as excited as I think we are to be able to give this back and do this. You have to use a code, right, for the entries and the discount? It's a Black Friday? Yeah, so it is. Black Friday is the code, 60% off at mapsfitnessproducts.com. And then you do all their stuff.

Yeah, and if you want to check out the house, just go to mindpumprentals.com. Yeah. Have you guys been there since I got the Traeger grill set up there? No. Not yet, no. Oh yeah, so that house has the best Traeger grill

that we have. We have the big monster, I forget what it's called, but it's like the big, you know, couple thousand dollars for that thing and I I love and then this is obviously not a commercial for Traeger We're not partnered with them or anything like that, but I love smoking My meat on Traeger. I mean, that's like my go-to if you and Doug are like the meat masters with oh, man You know what I use the other days speaking of that is yeah, I did I did some grass, is I did some grass-fed beef from Butcher Box. I slow-cooked it on the smoker, and then I used the iron skillet and I pan-seared it in Palo Valley's beef tallow. Oh!

So I used the beef tallow. So basically I did a slow- What did you put, like, a tablespoon in there? Yep. So I did it first, I slow- it. I used to use like some basic Montreal seasoning, that's my favorite seasoning that I use on the steak. I slow cooked it, I brought it up to 135 degrees in the center. Is that called the reverse sear when you sear it after you cook it? Yeah. Okay. And then after it's done being smoked, I let it sit for a couple minutes. I heat up that iron skillet to as hot as it possibly can get. I drop a tablespoon of that the beef tallow from Paleo Valley and then I let that sear for one minute on each side and it's like you know it's about as good and juicy and tasty you can make a grass-fed

steak. You know what else you could do with that beef tallow? You could you could like like low fry potatoes like sliced potatoes. Oh my god by by the way, this is a nice crisp. With the beef, huh? With the beef tallow like that. Bro, this is what McDonald's used to make the fries in. Exactly. McDonald's used to make their French fries, they used to fry them in beef tallow.

And then some vegan, I don't know why I didn't think about that. Some vegan sued them and said, because oh, it's not vegan, the fries aren't vegan. It's not so vegetable-ish, crap. So now it's all like this chemical concoction to fry fry them but they used to be straight up beef tallow. You know it's crazy I wish I would have thought of that because I actually may we make one of my favorite dishes to go with steak and Katrina makes these the little red potatoes yeah we cut them in half and then she does like this little

light layer of cheese Justin would love this and it kind of crisp the cheese in it. We normally do that but I now that I'm already using that grease for the, or that tallow for the steak. You just thin slice some potatoes and throw them in there. Yeah, yeah. Shallow fry? Yeah. Oh, bro. Yeah, especially with those small red potatoes, that'd probably work perfect.

Oh, it's so good. Drop them in there for a couple minutes and they're good. Oh, it's so good. It's the best thing ever. I'll do that. I was also, uh, change of topic here. I just read something the other day. I was showing Justin. It's so good. It's the best thing ever. I'll do that. Oh, so change of topic here. I just read something the other day. I was showing Justin, it's really cool.

So you know how I've talked about in the past about how hunter-gatherers tend to hunt their prey or how humans probably caught animals? And this is all in the context I talked about. Yeah, modern hunter-gatherers and how they run all the time but they don't burn more calories than us because the adaptation, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, humans, we do very few things very well physically,

and one of them is we can outrun for distance pretty much any animal. Like this is how we became apex predators. We could throw with accuracy, so we'd throw a spear, then we'd run after an animal until it got tired, and then we would totally kill it. We'd out endure them. So there was this graphic, this cool little video graphic

that I found online that showed what would happen if a cheetah, a bear, a camel, a horse, a lion, and a wolf raced in an ultra marathon. And it shows which ones take off first, and then as the miles continue, who starts to catch up, and who starts to- Oh, I wanna see this. Peter's out. Bro, it's so cool.

So it's okay. Wait, wait, pull them up, because I wanna try and guess. This would be interesting to see who got first. Oh, I wanna see this. Peter's out. It's so cool. So, it's so cool. So, okay. Wait, wait, pull them up, because I wanna try and guess. This would be interesting to see who got first. Oh, I don't know. We gotta find it. It's in the form.

I gotta find it for you, though. Oh, man, I wanna see. Because I wanna guess. Okay, so we have a wolf, a cheetah, a horse. Yes, so hold on. There's a cheetah, a bear, a camel, a horse, a lion, a wolf, and then a human. Well, okay, first and second is camel and horse.

That's first and second. Place? No, yeah, for and second is camel and horse. That's first and second. Place? No, yeah, for the marathon. For the ultra? Yeah, yes. Human. Oh, human's in there. Sorry, oh sorry, I didn't know the human.

So human, then it goes camel, then it goes horse. You're right. Yeah, camel barely beats out the horse. Yeah, but those gotta be top three. Did you guys know there was, I think I brought this up years ago, there used to be a race. Cheetah's done, like quick.

Yeah, cheetah was out and then just tired. There used to be a race where a human would race a horse every year. I forgot where it was done, I want to say New York. I think more often than not, the human would win, but sometimes a horse would. But it was like this big race, and it was human versus horse,

and people would go and bet or whatever. That's a cool thing to do, because I bet a lot of people wouldn't guess that. No. I mean, I know that we've talked about that, it's about the human in there, and then I know that camels, that's one of the things they're known for,

is how far they can go without even drinking water. Yes. They can go a long, long way. Oh, there it is. So you can see the animals all taking off. Okay, so what comes after all that? That's what I want to know. This is not the very beginning because the cheetah went,

but there's the horse kind of beating everybody, but it takes forever for the human to catch up. What's that bottom one? That's a wolf. There's an ostrich. Oh ostrich. That's what I forgot about the ostrich. Oh an ostrich does really well, dude Yeah, I really does really well to leg it long you run on two legs. It makes you really good at distance That's one of the reasons why humans do so well Yeah, I want to I really want to see what what so yeah, Doug really good at distance. That's one of the reasons why humans do so well. Yeah, I really wanna see what, so yeah, Doug, can you tell us who finishes, right? There's the camel, starting to catch up.

Ever seen somebody ride on an ostrich? It's a trip. Can you? Oh yeah. Yeah, there's a human right now. They can like literally sit on them and they. Coming up here. Yeah.

Ride them. And then, yeah, speed up and there's the human. So yeah, number one, human, number two, camel, number three, horse and then yeah, he speed up and there's the human So yeah number one human number two camel number three horse number four ostrich ostrich is four Well, I would not have guessed that yeah, that's great. And then what's five to the other ones just die off that he's had her dead Bro, they went home Hard exploded. Yeah, how cool is that though? Right? How cool is it that cuz I when I was a kid I thought humans were just physically just we're we can't do anything yeah we're just you know we're smart yeah but that's that and then throwing with accuracy like no

animal well that's what I always saw humans we had the ability to throw yeah which you know I guess I mean some primates can do that but not like accurate yeah not like us yeah but how scary is that cuz as I'm watching that I'm thinking like imagine being the animal that is being run down by a human. Have you ever seen... You're just looking back and they're still coming. You're like why aren't they stopping? It's like Jason in Friday the 13th you know. Just keeps coming after you. Terrifying. Have you ever seen that video of I think it was orangutan that like spear fished. No, it was watching, um, fishermen and like just picked up the, the, the trait of them, um, throwing these spears.

And so he like made its own stick and like threw it in and was like, yeah, like teaching itself how to fish like that. That's really cool. Yeah. It's crazy. There was one game show. Uh, I believe it was a Japanese, probably a Japanese game show. They have the best.

I know they have the best. They're my favorite, dude. Some of the game shows, though, I'm like, who put this, yeah, what are we doing here? Why are they, but there was one where there was a, it was an orangutan. Was it an orangutan? No, which one's the orange coated one?

Yes, it was an orangutan. Is that an orangutan? Okay, it was an orangutan with a rope. And on the other end were like strong athletes and they were doing and the, and the ring of tang is literally probably playing with him, bro. He's holding onto the rope and he looks bored and they're just, ah, and he just like doing this. And then finally the, the, you know, the owners give him the like pull, make sure you pull. And he's kind of confusing.

Oh, okay. He just pulls the people off the, off the, you know, how many people was he? It was like two people, three, just so strong. And he's like only, he was only 170 pounds. They're insane. Chimps are the same, you know, and there's some, I forget what they're called, but there's like this, um, uh, certain place, I don't know if it's in Africa or South America, it must be in Africa somewhere, um, where they're actually like so big, uh, that they're almost as tall as a human.

And walking around on two legs and just jacked. I was having this talk with my four-year-old. He gets real curious about stuff. And he was making a joke about butts, or he thinks butts are hilarious. Yeah, butts and farts. Yeah, yeah, of course. And I'm said, you know. Butts and farts. Yeah, yeah, of course. And I'm like, you know, humans have the biggest butts

out of all the primates. And he's like, what? And so I'm explaining to him. The rules have no butt. None. And I'm like, the reason why we have such big butts is because we stand upright. And small pee-pee.

We have the biggest, humans have the biggest proportion. That's true, that's true. I just wanna throw that in there. That's a fact, everybody. It is, factual, check it out. I just want to throw that in there. That's a fact everybody. It is factual, check it out. I didn't look it up myself, you just look it up. Anyway, I was explaining them the size of our glutes and how that keeps us upright

and how we have big knee joints as a result and this is, he's like super curious about this stuff. You know it's so cool to see them as they work through their phases. We just moved into a new phase, Max and I, and I've been waiting for this. You know how the kids are with like their books that you read, like the, the attention span is very short.

So most, most under five year old books are pretty short and pictures and like, you know, funny small sentences. And I've been waiting. So my sister, um, when, when Max was born and I believe you got, I don't know if it was you guys who recommended it first, but you know the Tuttle Twins, right? Yeah, of course. So I've been waiting for when I can introduce those books.

You talk about markets. Yeah, yeah, and they're a little obviously deeper, and so it's probably more appropriate for like, I don't know, middle school or, you know. Maybe 7.8. Yeah, yeah, probably 7.8, but last night, we sat through, he sat through an entire Tuttle Twins book about markets. And I was just like, Holy shit, Katrina was watching on the camera and we came in and

she's just like, I can't believe he sat through the entire, I said, you know, I told him, let's just, I told him I was only going to read. Cause what I did was like, you know, the way we decided how many books Max is going to read is the way he moves through the process of getting ready for bed. So typically he gets about three books to read before bed. If he's lollygagging on his bath time and other things like that, it reduces the amount of books and we allow him to negotiate that. So it's like sometimes he's in the bath and he's like, I still want to stay longer and play. Okay, you can stay longer and play in the bath, but then you're only going to get two books.

We got to get out sooner or later. And so we kind of let him decide that a lot of time. And so it was a night where he was down to one book, because he stayed in the bath extra long playing. I said, OK, there's only one book tonight. And so Katrina, I read to him. Katrina had the book picked out. And I read to him, and I had the book, Tuttle Twins, on there.

And I'm like, let me see it. And so I go, hey, I'll let you read another book if you let me pick it. And he's like, OK, I'll let you read another book if you let me pick it. And he's like, okay, you know, of course, right? Cause he gets to stay up a little bit longer. And then I said, well, just start with five pages. Daddy wants you to, I want to read Tuttle Twins to you. And so I started reading it and he just, bro,

he just snuggled up to me, didn't distract, was just listening. And like, I was like, oh my God, I ended up reading the whole thing. And Kachur was like, oh my god, he sat there. I said, I don't know. I said, maybe because he was lucky and he knew he was getting to read an extra book.

I said, but I'll take it as a win. I'm like, I've been wanting to introduce those books to him for a long time. Plant seeds. Yeah. I tried to read it to him a long time ago, way before he was early enough. And it was too early.

Although, he remembered the octopus in that. So the first book I read to him was Dr. Jekyll Island. Basically. The creation of the Federal Reserve. Yes, yeah. These books are amazing. Yes, bro, I love these books. These books are-

You've never seen these books? I haven't. Oh, bro, they're awesome. I mean, I heard of them. You teach your kid the creation of the Federal Reserve? Yes, I literally read him about- It's like an evil octopus. Yes, I taught him about the Federal Reserve last night.

And like, it was great that, but he remembered. about like an evil octopus. Yes. I taught him about the Federal Reserve last night and like it was great that but he remembered he's like dad is this the octopus that takes the money and I'm like yes yes it is. Let me tell you about it right. Tentacles going there. It's ever growing. So I'm like okay I obviously it's pretty heavy and deep but he's probably not fully grasping it but if it's already starting to get the wheels turning a little bit, I'm like, oh, this will be great when it comes all together. You just might say the other night where Jessica was cleaning up the kitchen and I wanted to take a shower

and she's like, you know what, just bring him in the bathroom while you take a shower. I'm like, what are they gonna do? She's like, entertain him, I don't know. She's like, put your butt up against the glass door or whatever, I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. And my kids are like laughing. My son goes, yeah, do that, you need to do that. And he's like, mom does butt up against the glass door or whatever. I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. And my kids are like laughing. My son goes, yeah, do that.

You need to do that. Mom, he's like, mom does that. Mom does that. I'm like, you do that? She's like, yeah, who cares? They laugh. I'm like, honey, there's a big difference between mom and dad.

I'm like, I'm not gonna traumatize my kid. I'm just gonna have to. Yeah, he's gonna remember that for the rest of his life. And they thought it was hilarious, but I'm like, you want me to traumatize my son? I'm going to entertain him in the shower, watch some TV or something like that. We were dying. We were laughing so hard. Who brought the stat for age or for orgasms for women?

Oh yeah. Is that you? Yeah. There was a study on what age age, okay so let me ask you guys this, what age range do you think women report the best sex and orgasms? So I think I know the answer so I almost don't want to give you the answer because I feel like I already know this. I think it's in the 40s. Yeah I think it's mid to late 30s or 40s. It's definitely not later than 45, it's definitely not earlier than 35, so between 35 and 45. It's not 20s, not 30s. It's definitely not later than 45. It's definitely not earlier than 35. So between 35 and 40.

It's not 20s, not 30. Yeah, I would definitely say it's later. Yeah, that's it. That's 100%. Is that what it is? Yeah, it's also when women start to have the best body acceptance. So, okay.

By the way, this is interesting. That's gotta be a big factor. This is interesting for women to listen to, especially if you're a young woman, that women in the older age groups have better body satisfaction and acceptance than when they were younger, when presumably they had better objective bodies. And yet they're happier with themselves later on in life.

So what does that tell you? How much of this is so in our heads and how we hurt ourselves? So is that the prevailing theory on why the orgasms are better? Yes, they're more comfortable. They're more comfortable with themselves. They know what they like, what they want.

They're not so self-conscious. Now, do you believe this is also, I feel like this runs parallel to men too. Do you think that's that different for men? Men's sexual performance, I think, peaks earlier. So any- Well, wait, wait, wait. Performance and enjoyment are different things though. Like, yeah, maybe 20-year-old you goes marathon

for eight hours. Or you have different cogs that are turning. I don't know, that's a good question. I mean, I think I'm having the best sex in my life at my age of 40, 43, so I mean, would you not think that? Yeah, probably, yeah. So I would think that it would run parallel the same, and I would also make the argument

that it's for similar reasons. I know that my security with the way I feel about who I am myself is different than it was when I was 20 something. Yeah, that's true. There's also the chasing mastery thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You put 10,000 hours in.

I'll do better next time. Yeah. 10,000 reps later. That's so much better. No, and there's also, like, the data on this goes counter to what a lot of people are led to believe. For example, the best sex people have are committed couples. People who've been together for years and years and years, like 10, 15, 20 years, 30 years or more,

report the most satisfying sex lives, which runs counter to what the media would have you believe. The media would have you believe that the most satisfying sex comes from one night stands and being promiscuous and whatever. It's like, no, no, it's people who've been together with each other for a long time have the most satisfying sex. Well, I think that's, yeah, you can actually be more vulnerable. I feel like there's a guard there because it's like,

you're still trying to kind of prove something to your partner or whatever, if it's new and you haven't been with them in a while. There's lots of factors. I think that there's how comfortable you are. There's also, when you're in a relationship for a long time, you learn what that person likes and wants. Exactly, you both are learning together.

Along those lines, I've heard people now, you're starting to hear this argument again, because for a long time this fell out of favor, but I think, I don't know, this is weird, you know how culture is, the pendulum swings back and forth. People are now arguing that, because the argument against waiting to have sex for marriage was always like,

well you need to know what you like, and you need to make sure that you guys are, you guys are match up sexually. I'm hearing people now make the argument that no, that actually is not the case, and when people wait till marriage, they develop, they grow together with it, and it actually reports more satisfying sex lives.

Very interesting, and I can see how that might be true. How that might actually be true, where you're experiencing this for the first time with your partner together and growing along I mean do you think I do get I do get comments that um that I didn't anticipate right obviously I didn't I didn't think about What this these types of things would happen when fatherhood came in and parenting and a family and stuff like that But I do get a lot more often in private than I get publicly on my page but even publicly I just posted a picture of Katrina, me and Max at Disney World with that.

And, uh, I get more and more people now, you know, saying things like, Oh, goals or I can't wait to be a father or I mean, watching you guys, you're hearing you guys talk about fatherhood excites me. Or I've heard people say things like, I didn't think I wanted kids and now I do want kids after you're here. Weird how the culture lies? It's just the opposite of the real, like, and the data supports all that.

So the reason why I brought that up is I'm asking that do you think it's shifting, or is this just me and my little bubble and bias because it's my experience of what I'm hearing? If you look at the data on people's perceptions, especially young men, it's shifting. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Young men are embracing tradition, religion, more than they have in previous decades, and views around sex are starting to switch. They're starting to move from, it's more freeing to be promiscuous to, it's probably better to wait and to be with just one person. All of that is starting to shift and you're starting to see it in surveys. So I don't think you're imagining it. Yeah, I was actually talking about this a bit with Courtney, and you know, like my,

Ethan and my, you know, he's in that sort of age range now where it's all kind of coming to fruition in terms of hormones and puberty and all this kind of stuff, and it's like, you know, within that class of kids, like what they've been through in terms of the disconnect and the separation and like there's like, I hate to tell this on the part, but he had his first kiss, like, you know, and so it was like a big deal and it was like so innocent and like great. But it's one of those things where it's like not a lot of his friends have had that experience yet. Not a lot of his friends are like hooking

up with a girlfriend or like it's like there's like this weird kind of disconnect. It's like you sort of talk to them on social media and then you kind of get that opening and then you, but it's starting to kind of come back. I feel like there's efforts in terms of hanging out and prioritizing a bit more of seeking a partner. But it seemed there for a while, like that was like, everybody's like, nah. Well, there's a difference between like, I'm not interested because I'm distracted or because I'm scared. Well, he's a freshman, like, I'm not interested because I'm distracted or because I'm scared and- Well, he's a freshman, right?

Yeah. I mean, that was really when- That's about the right age. Yeah, I had girlfriends before and I had my first like innocent kiss before that. But when I, I distinctly remember the difference between my high school girlfriend and my girlfriend in eighth and seventh grade.

When high school came around, was the first time it was like- You're making like, well, not only that, but also like, it was more about her and I than it was ever before. It was before it was like saying, I have a girlfriend, but I really hanging out with my friends all the time. Like, I don't want to hang out. Like I had a girlfriend and say, I had a girlfriend, but I still wanted to, I still wanted to spend all my time with my buddies and never get, it wasn't until freshman year in high school that my girlfriend, I actually wanted to spend time with. I my buddies and never get it wasn't until freshman year in high school that my girlfriend I actually wanted to spend time with I actually made out with that that's that that all happened right for me

That's when that happened really like all the stuff before even the kissing and the hanging out and the girls stuff before was not It was different than it was then it was freshman year. So it seems about About I guess it is a bit on par. Were you different? Were you banging like in fourth grade? My first kids, I mean, it's like fourth grade. Yeah, it was. Wow. Sixth grade was like tongue. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

You were promiscuous. Little slut. Dude, but I got totally cocked by my teachers. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she called her parents and handed it for us. Oh, man.

Cool. Oh, yeah. But yeah, no, I mean, I wasn't that. When were you? Were you, like, Kim? Were you slutty or did you wait? I mean, I was early, you know? I was definitely early.

You were, too, huh? Oh, yeah. I was interested in girls, dude. Yeah, very early. I was very interested. See, I mean, my first girlfriend was fourth grade, and we held hands. And my first kiss was fifth grade, but it was like a peck and a dare.

And then sixth grade, it was like my friends pressuring me, you got to go kiss her. It was like that. And then high school came, and it was like, I was genuinely interested in her. We were looking for places where we could go kiss and make out. Like, there was a huge shift for me. Freshman year, it was a major.

Yeah, you're right, I think that's a major change. But I do, I am encouraged seeing the data and seeing how it's getting communicated a little bit differently, like a little bit differently. Like for so long, the message was promiscuity and that's what it's all about and it's great, it's just about the pleasure, it's just about the sex and objectifying each other and objectifying yourself.

You're starting to see that message shift a little bit, which I'm happy about because it's brought a lot of problems. It really has. It's brought a lot of problems, especially with the ease of access to pornography. That's caused so many issues. I wonder if because of social media and so with that, we will see an acceleration of the movement

because when you think about it, the 60s really were the first rebellious movement to the traditional movement, right? So before the 60s, it was very traditional and conservative and a lot of those values that you're talking about now, the 60s really disrupted that. And then since then, we've been on this kind of- This tear.

Yeah, this run. And so from the 60s all the way to 2020, I mean, that's a long time. So the question is, if you feel like it's shifting right now, does it take another 40 years? No, it might be faster. Or do you think it will accelerate because of social media and the ability for that message?

It might, yeah, but also might fizzle out, right? Pendula might go bing, bing, bing. Right, right, like it moves real quick one way, but then it comes back the other direction within one generation. That'll be interesting. Shout out. Shout out the Build a Light program on the 13th.

Yeah, yeah, well there you go. What's coming up? Remember on the 13th at 6 p.m. at MindPump Media on Instagram, tune in, it's live, we'll be building a brand new program. 6 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. 6 p.m. Pacific Standard Time. 11, 13, is that a Wednesday, Doug?

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Ers calm forward slash mind pump use use the code mindpump10, get 10% off plus the Black Friday deals. All right, back to the show. First question is from CMOS23. Whenever I go into a bulk, it only goes to my belly. Any tips or tricks to make it go to my muscles? Too much bulk. Too much to your, I think people,

and you've said this Sal many times, I think really overestimate how much they need to be in a caloric surplus in order to send a signal to build muscle. You pair good programming with a slight calorie surplus and you're gonna build muscle. And it does not take, and I think a lot of this myth has been perpetuated by the bodybuilding space,

because we look at their bodies and we physiques, and we think they're the masters at building muscle and getting shredded. And so we look to them as advice of how they do this. And quite frankly, I think a lot of them do it wrong. They, and you might be going, how could you say that? Because they're some of the best physiques. It's like, well, they are and you might be going, how could you say that? Because they're the, some of the best physiques.

It's like, well, they are really good at building muscle and getting shredded, but for the average person to follow that as a strategy is really, really not smart because they put on so much body fat in the off season, just to add a few pounds of muscle that for the average person thinking that this is a good strategy, they're, they're steered in the wrong direction.

There's two reasons. One, your bulk is too high in calories and two, your strength training program is not working. If you have a good strength training program, your body's going to want to take those calories and build muscle. If you're overtraining, if you're following the same strength training program where it's just not effective and you add more calories, you're not going to build more muscle. Especially if you're overtraining. If you're just overtraining, if you're following the same strength training program where it's just not effective and you add more calories, you're not going to build more muscle. Especially if you're overtrained. If you're just overtraining, you just add- You just store it. You'll just gain, in fact, that's the big one is that you'll see people who are overtraining and then they'll just add extra calories and just get fatter

because it hasn't fixed the overtraining problem. So in my experience with this, that's the two places. It's like, let's look at your bulk. Yeah. In my experience with this those that's the two places like let's look at your bulk Yeah, are your calories too high and then the other one which is typically also in play is your program your programming needs to change Well, and is it easily digestible foods that you're eating in it or versus like are you doing the high calorie thing? Through a lot of like ultra processed food, you know Like it versus that and like is it giving you any kind of gastro distress which which, you know, any client I've ever had, like they're all, they're, they're going to feel like they're fat just because of that fat. So that's a good point, Justin,

and a mistake that I made in my early twenties when I would bulk is, and, and this is actually, I think also common is, uh, people that are trying to bulk and put size on, they become infatuated with, I need to push calories. I just need to eat more. And they chase it at all costs. And then they neglect to hit their protein intake. And I was guilty of this, was just piling on the french fries, piling on the ice cream, whatever it was,

to add calories so the scale would go up, because I just wanted to see the scale go up. And all I ended up doing was put on this body fat. And I did the worst thing you could do, which is eatin' a caloric surplus and the missed protein intake. So then I'm not giving my body the adequate nutrients to build muscle and simultaneously I'm eating way more than I need to and all I'm doing is putting body fat on. So that too can be a challenge for people but in good programming a good strategy is assess however it is that you typically

work out, look up all the different MAPS fitness products that we have and choose a program that is very unique or different than what you would normally do. That'll set you up for success in the programming side and then hit your protein intake and then you don't need to have a massive surplus, just a small surplus. Next question is from CandySmith87, what are your thoughts on calisthenics and combo resistance training? Love it. What's combo resistance?

You're just combining it with traditional resistance. Like a hybrid? I love it. I mean, you know, I like calisthenics a lot because of the skill that you develop through moving your body through space. Like, you get really good at calisthenics, you're getting really good at moving your body around, and there's so much carryover into the real world. It feels good, it makes you more athletic.

Calisthenics is strength training. Now it has some challenges. At some point, certain calisthenic exercises, like body weight squats just- It's hard to progressively overload. Yeah, you're not gonna build much more muscle now because you're doing 500 reps on it, so we should probably add some resistance.

But that's why you would combine it with resistance training. I love them, I absolutely love it. Resistance training in general really refers to just using resistance in a way to build muscle, which also refers to calisthenics. But calisthenics also, very functional, great for mobility and great for health.

I like them. We had a kid who walked up to us at the summit that we were just at, at the health summit with Dr. Cabral, and he's the trainer, and his big stick is calisthenics, and he wanted to hear our opinion on it, and I said to him, man, I absolutely, I love calisthenics, I think it's phenomenal, and you can get

in incredible shape. The only limiting factor is if your primary goal is to build maximal muscle and or strength, that's where it's limiting. But it doesn't mean you cannot build a very strong, fit, healthy, mobile, controlled physique. I mean, you can have a great physique doing that. It's just that if our goal is to pack on as much muscle

as possible or move the needle the fastest, you are limiting yourself by not using barbells and dumbbells. That's all. But it doesn't mean that you can't have... It's most limiting with lower body. You can get pretty far upper body with calisthenics, especially if you use like rings. There's some really challenging exercises. There's ways you can manipulate push-ups to make them very challenging. But lower body, yeah, I guess you could do single leg pistols, but even at that point you get really good at those. Now you're doing tons of reps. Um, you know, dead lifts, you can't really do any, you know, kind of posture or chain heavy exercise for the lower body.

So it's, it's limiting, especially for the lower body, but upper body, I mean, there's some great maximal strength muscle building upper body exercises. Yeah, body and core, you're gonna have all kinds of options. And definitely this question is in combo, and combo is the best of all worlds. That's how you should strength train, I think. And when you think about it, we do, I mean, I use push-ups, dips, pull-ups.

Always. Always. I do pull-ups almost every week. I do dips almost every single week. Yeah, so those are three body weight exercises that I always include in my routine. Obviously I'm going through something with my chest right now, so there's a little bit of that that's limited,

but most of the time, this is, I would say that we program combo calisthenics in there with it. We probably don't go all calisthenics where you're doing muscle ups and some other great exercises you can, but absolutely the combination is a wonderful choice. Next question is from Fulvio Castle what do you think about the new trend of

emphasizing long lengthened partials? So anytime a study comes out that shows that one part of a rep or one rep range or one type of tempo builds a little bit more muscle than the other ones, then you start to see this flood of fitness information that just focuses on that one thing. So it's like, oh, negative, the negative portion of a rep that causes or that sends a louder muscle building signal than positives. So why don't we just do negative training? Or when you're, when the, do negative training or when you're when the in the whole rep range the lengthened portion of the rep is where the loudest signal goes to muscle let's just focus on that what that ignores is that the rest of it also builds muscle

all of it does so negative rep builds more muscle in the positive but the positive also builds muscle long lengthened partials in other words resistance in the lengthened portion of a rep. For example, if I'm doing a curl, the extended part, or if I'm doing a fly, the stretch part, right? That builds a little bit more muscle, but the rest of it also builds muscle. So why would I cut all of it out? I'm not going to build more muscle by cutting everything else out. And if anything, I'm going to hamper myself because of the way that I'm going to gain strength now. The way that you gain strength is pretty close to how you train yourself to gain strength. If I'm training in just this lengthened position, I'm not getting a lot of strength in the rest

of it. Now I'm getting this dysfunctional movement patterns because I think I'm going to build more muscle, which I'm not. I think it's cool that we now have data showing that the lengthened position is a great position for muscle building, which to me says, Hey, don't cut your rep short. Make sure you get the stretch at the end of your rep, but don't, don't cut out the rest of it. So they're like, what are they promoting with this? Like, so you lengthen

like this. So if I was like in a,ened bicycle. A quarter wrap from the lengthened position. And that would be a part of you. Or maybe a pause in the stretch, which is fine too. Yeah. I mean, this reminds me of the conversation we just had at the event we spoke at. And we talked about the problem with the fitness space is that we have a lot of these science study nerds

that are communicating information to the minority of people that need help. Very novel. This is such a novel, and it's not that it doesn't have value, it doesn't mean that the study isn't true, I don't disagree with anything, it's that it is completely irrelevant

for 99.9% of the population. And so even debating on what we think, or is it good or it's bad, it's like, it's so irrelevant to most people. You can never apply this science and continue to apply the stuff that we communicate over and over and over on this podcast, like taking it up to full range of motion, like sticking to a full body

routine, like making sure that, I mean, that you have control. Yeah. Like there are so many things that are so important for you to master and be consistent with that you could never follow any of these cool, neat hacking tips and build the most amazing, strong, good looking physique, uh, without any of this. It's not gonna, it's interesting. It's not gonna hack you there quicker. They're doing little tiny reps with that versus just like enhancing your

isometric tension in that position. So like, say it's a pause rep. It's all of it. They do that too. I mean, I would do that as opposed to little short quarter reps. But even that. It's still a novel, I know, but even to me, like, I'm just hearing you describe that, and I'm like, that's silly. If you look, if you do full range of motion, and you're constantly and consistently

challenging your range of motion appropriately, I wanna say that, because you can go beyond what you can control and hurt yourself, right? But if you're always training in a way to where you're trying to work in the fullest range of motion that you own and you're constantly trying to get yourself to be able to improve ranges of motion within reason, you're gonna get this.

You're gonna get the negatives. You're gonna get the tempo. You're gonna get all the stuff that they talk about and then some. Emphasizing the areas where we see a little bit of a louder signal and removing the others or discrediting little bit of a louder signal and removing the others or discrediting the others is a mistake. And also, to Adam's point, we're starting to place

more value on things that don't deserve the value. Most people, full range of motion, that's where you're gonna get the most gains. You know who should train with partial reps? People who, very specific instances, need strength within a partial range of motion. Like high level athletes. High level athletes, sometimes this makes sense.

Like if you play basketball at a high level, quarter squats or half squats make sense. You're not gonna go down to a full squat and jump. You'll get more performance by training in a shortened range of motion. Because you want to be able to generate the maximal amount of force where that angle most applies to your position in your sport.

This reminds me of the negative. Remember when the data came out to show that it was the negative portion of the rep that built the most muscle? Yeah. So then you had people, there were guys, there were books. There were books that came out in the 90s that were all about negative reps. In were books that came out in the 90s. Of course. That were all about negative reps. In fact, you didn't even do the positive. You had your friends lift the weight for you.

Yeah, then you changed it. And all you did were controlled, crazy negatives because it built more muscle. Well, it was a fad. It fell out of favor because it didn't give you better results than doing it. Because it wasn't one of the big rocks. No.

It wasn't one of the top 50 big rocks. There's so many other things. In fact, I gave a tip in my series yesterday about this. And I think this is a far more important point or tip to give the average listener around certain things. So understanding the strength curve of an exercise is important so you understand what you definitely don't want to neglect. Obviously, if you take the advice of always going through full range of motion you'll cover this but I was giving an example I was doing single arm preacher curls and I said let me tell you a mistake that I made and I see people make all the time with this

is they're doing single arm preacher curls and what they don't realize is the most valuable portion of that entire is the stretch position of that yet you'll see some guy increase his dumbbell weight just so he could go heavier on the dumbbell. And then he ends up eliminating that 30 degrees. That is the most valuable part. You would be far better off staying light on the way and taking that through full range of motion. And then, and then I said, the opposite is true on the spider curl. So in a spider curl, it's when, when gravity is, is neck is pulling directly against the weight,

which is on the top, the top, in the squeeze portion. But then you'll see guys go heavy there and then they go halfway up the rep. So they're neglecting the most important and valuable part of that rep. And so understanding the strength curve and what's important now, again, taking it through full range of motion covers all the bases. And that is why that tip is so much better than making these studies and highlighting them as like, hey, you should do this. The benefit of this data might just be this. Don't avoid the lengthened part of a rep because you're trying to add weight. Because the lengthened part of the rep, like if you're doing a pull up and you stop short,

no, no, go all the way down, get a little bit of stretch and come all the way up. You won't be able to do as many reps, but you'll build more muscle as a result. Next question is from Summer L. Wainwright. Should you do underhand or overhand barbell rows? What is the difference? Both. This became popular in the mid-90s

because Mr. Olympia, Doreen Yates, performed his barbell rows with a supinated grip. And he got this advice. Was he like the first person to do that? He was the one to make it popular. Oh, neutral. Yeah, he was the one that was like, this is how I do it. Now the reason why he did it this way was because

he followed a training style that was loosely based off of the one developed by Arthur Jones, Mike Menzer being the other one, where you did very low volume and you went to failure and beyond. So, during eights, train with very little volume, train with super crazy maximal intensity. But one of the things that Arthur Drones taught was why would we put your bicep in a position that is not advantageous? It's strongest when your hand is supinated. So, it will allow you to use the most amount of weight. So put your hand in a supinated position when you do your pull downs and when you do your rows. That

was the thought process. Now it's faulty because that's not entirely true. I'm stronger with the barbell row with the pronated grip. I'm also stronger to pull up with a pronated grip because that's the way that I train. But it doesn't matter. All those positions have some value. The supinated grip is going to hit the bicep differently than the pronated grip, but it's a back exercise. Now, the other thing is that a lot of people in that supinated position don't feel very comfortable with their hands fully supinated while rowing.

They just, it hurts the wrist, doesn't feel super good. And I'll say this, it puts the bicep in a more vulnerable position for tears. And you see this, in fact, during these towards bicep, doing heavy rows with the supinated grip. But I think both of them are great. Well, I mean, you target your back different. When you are in a pronated grip, you're gonna get more rear delt, more traps involved.

That's for your elbows, right? Yeah, because of your elbow position. Because it changes the elbow position, which is the most- But it's not the wrists. Yeah, no, the wrists. But you just have to understand that if you are in a pronated grip, your elbows are going to be higher if your elbows are driving down here.

And so you're talking about up here, more rear delt, more upper back, down low, more lats and rhomboids involved. And so you get a little- to me, I do both. So I utilize overhand and I use underhand and I just look at it as a different exercise and not one is necessarily better than the other. I've never thought of it like, Oh, this one's better than that. The back is such a big muscle that I think we make a mistake sometimes of like generalizing everything as like the same exercise.

The two things to focus on with back, back, general, there's more than this, but the two general things are elbow position, and whether you're rowing horizontally, or you're rowing or pulling down vertically. Pulling down vertically is gonna be different than pulling towards my body from a horizontal position, and then elbow position. How close my elbow is to my body,

versus how far away is, those are the two main considerations that you should have when you're looking at your back exercises and am I going to work more mid trap, rhomboid, rear del, or am I going to work more lat? It's all on those two things right there. It's funny, listening to you guys, because I don't identify with any of that.

I just do neutral grip as much as possible. And then sometimes I'll- How do you barbell row? Well, that's the thing. I do barbell stuff and barbell overhead press, obviously. So if you were to row barbell, though, you would do a pronated overhand.

Overhand. I typically don't do supinated anything, except for if I'm doing curls. Yeah, that's it. Which you really don't ever do anyway. I did it in Florida, you saw me. I saw that. I was like, what is happening here?

Yeah, I don't think it matters, but if you want full muscle development and function. Change them up. Then you're gonna change them up and move them into different positions, because what you'll find is if you stick to one and you don't do the other one, you get really bad at doing the other one.

And so it's a good idea to kind of. That's how I've treated it. They're different exercises. It's not, I mean, when you change the position of the elbow, it now becomes a different exercise. And so, and they both have different things. I mean, the only time I really thought about it much is when I was bodybuilding and I was thinking about,

because when I was bodybuilding, I was always. You're doing so much volume. Yeah, I'm doing so much volume. And I was thinking, for example, I was bodybuilding, I was always- You're doing so much volume. Yeah, I was doing so much volume. And I was thinking, for example, I might do a supinated grip because the day before, I really blasted my rear delts. I hit rear delts. And so my traps and rear delts just got a lot of attention the day before.

And so I didn't want to put any more attention on them. They already got plenty. And so then I would tuck it in and get more lat. You know what I'm saying? So that's how I made that decision on. But both are valuable both they're targeting the back a little bit different not one is necessarily better than the other someone tells you that I think they're lying there you go look if you like the show come find us on instagram Justin is that mind pump Justin I'm at mind pump DeStefano and Adam is that mind pump Adam thank you for listening to mind pump

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