Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2469: Compound Before Isolation Lifts are the Best, Except When They're Not (Listener Live Coaching)

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Starting point is 00:01:56 Again, it's also everything 60% off. Go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and the code is Black Friday. Alright, here comes the show. Compound lifts before isolation lifts are the best except when they're not. I like that I like that. I like that. This is maybe because it's my idea. Before we went live we were just talking about how Sal is so hard. I tried to tell him to say something a certain way and never fails. He'll do it his own way no matter how good I say something in your words. It's gotta be his way. So the rule that... and you know rules in strength training are general rules because most rules can be broken depending on the context. Would you say that's true? Mostly. As I say, almost every rule, which is why too,

Starting point is 00:02:49 I get so frustrated with social media sometimes when we speak in absolutes and then we battle each other, you know, fitness professionals talking shit about another fitness professional because they're communicating this. So much nuance they're leaving off the table. And then somebody comes to the top and says, this is what the study says.

Starting point is 00:03:03 It says, well, okay, yeah, in that controlled environment that sit in that study in that situation this that is the truth but there's also situations where I know that's not the truth and so It's so much more nuanced than that. Yes, and it's a good general rule to program Compound lifts first right to calm and and not only that, but the muscle or the area you want to work should be prioritized that way. So the things that can give you the biggest bang for your buck, compound lifts, the muscles that you're trying to focus on first, but there's exceptions to that.

Starting point is 00:03:35 And in fact, there's a lot of clients that I would train and we would start with an isolation exercise first. Yeah, same here. And of course, you know, you have the most energy, so you should do the heaviest lifts, et cetera, et cetera. But if I had a client that had trouble connecting to and feeling a target muscle on a compound lift, because compound lifts use two joints

Starting point is 00:03:56 and they use lots of different muscles for the lift, right? Like a bench press, it's known to be a chest exercise, but it's also using the shoulders and triceps, right? A squat. Squat was a big one for me. Yes also using the shoulders and triceps, right? A squat. Squat was a big one for me. Yes. Getting the glutes to fire and be engaged while going through that compound lift. That's right.

Starting point is 00:04:11 So a lot of women will do squats for their glutes, right? But you're also using your quads and your hamstrings and even your calves to some degree. What if I don't feel the target muscle when I'm doing the compound lift? Well, one of the best things you could do is isolate that muscle for a few sets and then go to the compound lift. Now, there are gonna be people who are gonna bring up studies and show that, oh, this doesn't change how many muscle fibers

Starting point is 00:04:33 you activate, et cetera, et cetera. I disagree completely. And it's not because it's telling your muscles to work differently necessarily, it's just allowing you to feel the muscle that you're trying to work, and then you adjust that technique just enough to be able to do it.

Starting point is 00:04:48 Because I noticed when I'd have clients, for example, if I had female clients that didn't feel their butt when they did squats, and then I had them do some hip bridging or some hip thrusting, and then squat, I would notice a difference in their technique. They would use more glutes in the squat because now they felt it from the previous exercise. It's no different than if you were to run a study

Starting point is 00:05:04 that showed that when people are doing a seated row and I poke them in the squat because now they felt it from the previous exercise. It's no different than if you were to run a study that showed that when people are doing a seated row and I poke them in the back, I activate more muscles or not. I don't activate more muscles when I poke them in the back. Just feel it. But they feel it more and they have a better understanding of where they should feel it and then it allows them to get better. It's a signal for them, yeah, it's a response to. So it's very similar to that.

Starting point is 00:05:20 It's not, okay, you're right. In a controlled study, you are not gonna show that this builds more muscle doing it this way, therefore why should we throw it out? No, it's like, you're teaching, like, you use the chest. Very, very common. I'd say those are the probably two biggest that where I'd use in isolation. Many, many times, if I had a client

Starting point is 00:05:36 that wanted to develop their chest, and they never felt bench press in their chest, I would lay them on a foam roll down their spine, and we would do like a fly, right? And I did that because the way laying on the foam roll would drop their scapula back like they need to be in that position and doing an isolation. Full range of motion. Yeah, full range of motion real deep. It's so hard not to feel your chest in a fly like that. Exactly. It's like a cheat code for them. Yeah. And so now I'm getting them to feel that, and it's like, oh okay, just like a hip thrust is really hard not to feel your glutes,

Starting point is 00:06:08 and so if you get them to feel that, and then it clicks, like oh okay, that's what I should feel in the movement, now let me think about that when I go into this squat or this bench press, it made all the difference. It does, and now, here's how they should do a study like that, like let's take 50 people who say they don't feel their chest in a bench press,

Starting point is 00:06:26 or say they don't feel their glutes in a squat, then have them do this, and then I think what you're gonna find is they're able to connect better and activate those muscles a little bit better. I learned this, I was lucky enough to learn this as a kid. I learned this as a kid because one of the first you know, written out programs that I followed

Starting point is 00:06:45 was a program called Heavy Duty by Mike Menser. The theory of the program is low volume, high intensity, etc., etc. He used what are called pre-exhaust supersets in that program. The reason why I use them is because you're doing one set per body part. His theory was you want to pre-exhaust the target muscle with an isolation exercise and then go right to the compound lift so you get that muscle to go to full failure or whatever But anyway, you can debate that and argue that that wasn't the point The point is when I did that for my back now consider I was probably 16

Starting point is 00:07:15 Years old 15 or 16 years old and I'd been training my back since I was 14 And I'd never gotten a pump on my lats never never happened every time I did my back I kind of feel it but I didn't get a pump my arms get pumped, but I a pump on my lats. Never, never happened. Every time I did my back, I'd kind of feel it, but I didn't get a pump. My arms would get pumped, but I never really felt my lats. Well, I did dumbbell pullovers, and then I supersetted that with pull-ups.

Starting point is 00:07:33 So I did an isolation lift, and then did pull-ups. And I'll never forget that. I stood up, I dropped down from the pull-ups, I went down, but five seconds later, I, for the first time ever, felt a pump in my lats. And that's when I realized, like, oh, it's because I isolated them first. And I use this on clients all the time.

Starting point is 00:07:50 Anytime somebody didn't feel a particular muscle, I would isolate the muscle first, go back to the compound lift, and then they knew what to do. Like, oh, I know where I need to feel this. I know what I need to do with my technique and form. And it would change ever so slightly to hit those target muscles.

Starting point is 00:08:05 And so this is really effective for people who have trouble connecting to muscles and compound lifts. Well, this may be a little more on the functional side and less on like trying to maximize muscle pump or muscle build development. Like, so if somebody doesn't feel their core, doesn't feel the engagement there and the bracing mechanism, you know, if I'm not working on that specifically and highlighting that first, before I go into a compound lift, like a back loaded squat, you know, then we're gonna have problems. And

Starting point is 00:08:37 people do that all the time, where they're just getting into the movement of it. And they're not maximizing their stability, they're not maximizing, you know, their their mechanics with that, because they're not maximizing their stability. They're not maximizing their mechanics with that because they're not properly set up because you need that muscular contraction to really protect the spine to give them the best performance they can achieve. By the way, studies that support what we're talking about look different. There are studies where people will do a curl with one arm, and then they'll do the curl with another arm, but when they do the curl with the other arm,

Starting point is 00:09:08 they think about the bicep contracting and relaxing, they're like focusing on it mentally, and the studies show more muscle fiber activation when they concentrate on the target muscle. You squeeze out like 10% more. Yeah, and what we're trying to do here with the isolation exercise first is allow you to feel that muscle. That's it. So now I'm gonna go do my squats, my glutes are already a little fatigued. I can feel them while I'm

Starting point is 00:09:32 walking. Like oh there they are. Now when I do my squat I know what to do in my squat to make it hit my glutes. You can make micro adjustments too if you have that connection. That's it. 100%. I mean I think this was a solid trainer technique that at one point, if you've been doing this long enough, you, you figure out, yeah. And then it's a, then it's a go to, I mean, I, I actually think that if I were to go back, knowing that the rule of compounds, knowing how we write programs are like that way, right? You'll always see one of our mass programs leads with a

Starting point is 00:10:03 compound lift, right? But when always see one of our mass programs leads with a compound lift, right? But when I think about the clients that I've trained, many times I probably, if not more times, started with isolation because a lot of clients have a really hard time feeling that. At least maybe if it was chest, maybe I still started with barbell back squats, but then when I got to chest, I would do an isolation exercise first to get them to be able to feel it. If they gave me feedback of, I don't feel this in my chest,

Starting point is 00:10:26 oh great, here, come here. It's also good for correctional exercise. Physical therapists will do this, where somebody will do an overhead press, for example, and they'll say, oh, it hurts my shoulder, and then what a physical therapist will do is, let's say they'll do some kind of rotator cuff exercise, they'll train the infraspinatus or the superspinatus,

Starting point is 00:10:43 so they'll do something like that, right? And they'll do, let's say, external rotation. Then they'll have them do the shoulder press or the superspinatus, so they'll do something like that, right? And they'll do it, let's say external rotation. Then they'll have them do the shoulder press and the person's like, the pain is gone. Well, what just happened? All they did, I mean, technically they fatigued the stabilizer muscle a little bit, but how come they don't feel pain anymore?

Starting point is 00:10:56 Because they activated it, and now they changed their form ever so slightly. So I would also do this with correctional exercise. I would do this with abduction, being the legs out, adduction, bringing the knees in. I would do this with the ankles. When somebody would notice pain somewhere, a little correctional exercise, which oftentimes correctional exercise resembles isolation movements more than compound lifts. Oftentimes, not always. I would do that first, then they go do the lift. Like, oh, I don't hurt anymore. What did you just do? I just got you to feel where you

Starting point is 00:11:27 need to feel. I got you to move the way I want you to move. So all we're doing right now is we're explaining what's happening. You don't need to know all this. If you do bench press, if you do rows, if you do overhead presses, you do squats and you're one of those people which is like 20% I would say 20% of people especially when you first get started, don't feel necessarily the target muscle. Like 20% of people will do back exercises and they'll feel it in their biceps. 20% of people will do chest exercise and they'll feel the shoulders and triceps or they'll do you know butt exercises and it's all in their quads. Try and isolate, try a few sets of hitting

Starting point is 00:12:01 that target muscle isolation style, then go to the compound lift, slow down your reps, all of a sudden, all of a sudden you'll be able to feel it, all of a sudden you'll have the right form. I mean, talking about correctional stuff too, I mean, here's an example of something I do every single time before I overhead press or before I chest press, I will go over and do suspension trainer Ws first.

Starting point is 00:12:23 And so, and it seems counterproductive, oh, you're gonna go fatigue yourself doing this, shoulder exercise. Face pulls. Yeah, or face pulls, those are also great for that. Technically, you're fatiguing the stabilizers. Yeah. And it makes you stronger.

Starting point is 00:12:36 Yes, but then, exactly, watch what happens. I have a way better bench press going in there because I'm moving more optimally. And so, this is where there's exceptions to the rule. That is not the best way, technically, to get a bigger bench press, and no study's gonna show that that does that. But it's like if you are anything like me,

Starting point is 00:12:52 where you have forward shoulder, rounded shoulders, and forward head, getting you in a more optimal position to go bench press is gonna result in a better bench press and better results from your bench press. So this is where the exception to the rule is. This is all about central nervous system training. That's what you're doing when you're doing that is you're teaching the central nervous system in a very short period of time. It takes a couple sets, sometimes one set to tell your central nervous system, here's a more optimal way to fire and use the muscles. And so what you end up finding is

Starting point is 00:13:24 by fatiguing a stabilizer muscle, technically, you're stronger. How does that even make sense? Because the CNS now is firing in a more optimal way. And again, physical therapists do this all the time. You'll see, you can find videos on, even on social media, where somebody isn't able to bring their arm all the way back

Starting point is 00:13:40 and a PT will go do a bunch of shoulder exercises and all of a sudden they can bring their arm all the way back. Like what is going on? It's all about the CNS. It's all about the CNS. You guys seeing all the buzz around the Park City giveaway entries and stuff like that? Are they going crazy?

Starting point is 00:13:53 Yeah, yeah. So it's pretty exciting. Brett was telling me he's getting all kinds of feedback from it already too. So it's off and running and it's going good and so. Dude, the perfect day there, first of all it's a great location. If you like skiing,

Starting point is 00:14:06 it is one of the best places in the world. What a great excuse to get a nice vacation. Yes, so but here's what I like. This is what I like to do when I go there, right? Wake up in the morning. I work out in the morning. I'll go do one to two minutes in the cold dip and then lift. You got the gym right next to it. Then I'll finish with the sauna. Then I'll go do some red light therapy. And then at night, you got the sleep system. You're like, you're going to be optimized. You're going to be optimized. I'm more like hit the hot tub and then watch a movie.

Starting point is 00:14:32 Yeah. I get that too. Dude, Sal's routine there, I'm like, yeah, you'll catch me in the hot tub checking out the views. And then I'll be watching a movie in the movie theater. I got the whole family to do the cold plunge of the morning Oh really? Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. It was crazy. Who won? Uh everett he did. Yeah, honestly, dude

Starting point is 00:14:52 I felt like that was colder than just adding ice to a bath like the the temperature of it It was like oh my god, this is brutal. Oh, it can't it can get colder I know it can't I don't know what the exact temperature of what a bath gets when you add Ice cubes to it. Yeah, but the the cold plunge can dip colder Yeah, I don't know what it was said I felt it cuz I mean I could have I think I was just like, you know It's it's a competitive thing and I wasn't being competitive. I was just okay. I'm good and it never gets in there He's a super competitive We have movie posters right right, I remember, in the theater.

Starting point is 00:15:29 They represent all of us. That we all represent. Which one was mine, Rocky? Is it Rocky? Yeah, you're the Rocky one. There's a Goonies one in there. Goonies. What was I?

Starting point is 00:15:37 I don't remember what mine was. A few good men? Days of Thunder, a few good men. You're right. A few good men. What's Doug's? Top Gun. Yeah, Top Gun What's Doug's? Top Gun. Yeah, Top Gun.

Starting point is 00:15:45 It wasn't Charlie Chaplin, it wasn't a talkie. Star Wars. Charlie Chaplin, yeah. Then it was Star Wars, that's right. Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome, that's so great. Don't we have the Usual Suspects as well?

Starting point is 00:15:56 Yeah, that's it. I mean, Usual Suspects and A Few Good Men are like two of my favorite movies. It's funny, I've never seen that. You've never seen Usual Suspects? I've also never seen A Few Good Men. Bro, that was my nickname in college, dude. Kaiser.

Starting point is 00:16:06 Those are like two of my all-time favorite movies. Never saw them. What? They're so good. They're both great. Those aren't just good. Those are two of my all-time favorite movies. Legendary.

Starting point is 00:16:15 I know. You talk about them all the time. Wow. I did not know you've never seen them. I almost put Memento as another one of them. Bro, put that on your list. That's like a great Friday Saturday night. You know what it is?

Starting point is 00:16:23 Can't take it. What is it? Because I'm telling you, that's why. The cover? No, that's not a great Friday, Saturday night. You know what it is, can't tell you this. Yeah, what was it, because I'm telling you this. The cover. No, that's not what it is. Exactly, well, I'm just like how we started the show. You know how long it took him to watch Game of Thrones? Yeah, yeah, I don't watch Game of Thrones. I still didn't watch the whole thing, I still watch, you know what it is, Dave?

Starting point is 00:16:33 Yeah, let me hear it. No, let me tell you, it has nothing to do with the fact that you like it, at all. Because that movie was popular forever, way before I knew you, that was in the 90s, right? Yeah, it's been around for a long time. It was, I'm gonna date myself. You go to Blockbuster and you get the box

Starting point is 00:16:49 and the picture on the box, what is it? It's a couple guys in suits or, well, well, not exciting. Throw it away. I mean, Quentin Tarantino, all his covers look like that too, so how do you discern? That's weird logic. Yeah, that's weird. I'm just telling you.

Starting point is 00:17:04 That is the weirdest logic I've ever heard, because they blockbuster cover the movie. So I end up. Pull up the movie poster. Forget nothing exciting about it. Hey, forget it. It got like 99 on Rotten Tomatoes, and people have been talking about it for decades.

Starting point is 00:17:16 They have. It's like, it's got a terrible movie. It's so long now, now that. I don't even want to go. You know what I mean? It's been so long now. It's so good. First of all, usual suspects, there's nothing like it.

Starting point is 00:17:26 That's the one where he says, you can't handle the truth, right? No, no, that's a few good men. That's just a good break. Oh, cool. It's like a military American flag. I don't think I've ever picked a movie based off of the cover.

Starting point is 00:17:36 No, you're talking about our movie. I'm just telling you, I know it's illogical. I'm just telling you right now, it doesn't sell me. Pull up Usual Suspects. That one's not going to sell you either. I mean, I'm trying to think. Hey, show me a cover that sells you. I want to know what is it.

Starting point is 00:17:48 What's on the cover? Well, so Rocky I had to watch because he's Italian. Same thing with Godfather. He's like, critter. Yes. Yeah. There's a predator on it. I mean, Usual Suspects looks interesting, doesn't that?

Starting point is 00:17:58 No. No? They're all in a lineup that looks, I don't know. It's not the, it's like a lineup of guys. That movie is so good that I can tell you, you'll watch it, you will not get the twist in it. I'm telling you, there's a twist in it, you won't get it. That's what gets the attention.

Starting point is 00:18:13 Look at Predator. It's gotta be muscle. Right away. I wanna watch that right now. Bro, you're like 12. You're like 12 still. It's like action hero. Hey, when I was a kid, you know what I used to do

Starting point is 00:18:22 when I go to Blockbuster,buster I go in the horror section Yeah, and just look at the box. I did too because they were well there was one movie that was so gore was my favorite me, too Yeah, they did went crazy with that insane. That's all it there was one movie. Well like like tomato soup that just yeah There was a there was a whole series of movies so gremlins came out that was popular Yeah, 80s which by the way don't show your kids If you got kids and you're my age. Most 80s movies I've learned. Really scary bro. I showed my kids when they were too young. Remember the microwaves of Gremlin explodes in there? Yeah, my kids had nightmares. There was a whole slew of movies that followed with little monsters that were that big and there were different names for them.

Starting point is 00:19:04 Yeah. There was one where he's like coming out of the toilet you remember that oh yeah I don't know but I mean the critter was one of them critters and then there was another one where he's like I can't remember the name yeah I don't remember the names of but I was definitely like in a toilet remember that face remember that clown like clowns from space yes the tape you guys just tasted movies. Look at critters movie poster. Watch this bro. I think I remember. It wasn't critters. It wasn't critters. It was critters. Goolies. I remember I watched

Starting point is 00:19:39 that and I was a kid right? You know how terrifying that is to have a monster in the toilet? Of course. Look at that. Terrifies me now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I cannot believe you. Bro, those are such- Killer clowns from outer space. Sorry.

Starting point is 00:19:50 Yeah. Yeah. Great one. You can't watch either A Few Good Men or Usual Suspects and not like it. I just don't know anybody who's watched that. You know it's one of my favorite- It may not be your favorite movie. Like it's one of mine.

Starting point is 00:20:02 But- Now, do you guys have a favorite movie that's embarrassing? Like if you say it, you're like, ugh. Well, Rad. It's really good. Rad. Remember what my poster. That's not embarrassing.

Starting point is 00:20:10 I mean, it's kind of. No, that's like a total kid movie for dudes. Like there's no embarrassing movie. Oh, I got one for you. I got one. Devil Wears Parada. That's one of your favorite movies. I like that movie a lot.

Starting point is 00:20:22 That is so. That's embarrassing, right? You. That's so you. It does make sense. Why is that so me, bro? Because you probably think you love me. Fashion.

Starting point is 00:20:31 You love that character. Fashion. It's a good movie. Yeah, see, I do. It's a good movie. It's a good movie. She's like a bad ass boss. Yeah, she plays everybody.

Starting point is 00:20:38 It's a good movie. Yeah. You've seen that, right, Doug? I've seen it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's good. I thought it was good. I'm blonde.

Starting point is 00:20:43 It's kind of a chick movie, and I like it. Yeah, there's a few of them that are pretty good. I'd say that's probably the most, that I'm most embarrassed to admit that you can get me to rewatch that. I'll tell you one that's worse than that. I watched this movie several times, really good. It's a love story, Chocolat. Have you seen that?

Starting point is 00:20:56 Oh, that's a good one actually. That's a great movie. Yeah, yeah, that's Johnny Depp, right? It's like the notebook I've never sat through either one of those. I'll never watch that. Yeah, I don't do a lot of those. No, no, no.

Starting point is 00:21:04 That was actually a decent movie. I watched Dirty that. Yeah, I don't do a lot of those. No, no, no. That was actually a decent movie. I watched Dirty Dancing for the first time when I started dating Jessica. Oh, that's good. She was convinced, no it wasn't. She was convinced me it would be good and I watched it and I'm like, it's not good.

Starting point is 00:21:15 It was good for 80s movies. I mean, it's hard to say, you can't compare like. Yeah, like Breakfast Club, but that's not embarrassing. No, Breakfast Club. Oh, that's a classic. Yeah, dude, like that's not embarrassing. All the other's a classic. Yeah, dude. Like that's not embarrassing. All the other stuff you watch is embarrassing. Yeah, I do a lot of like really bad.

Starting point is 00:21:30 I used to like watching really bad movies though, because then you could just throw popcorn at it and talk shit the whole time. I never watched, what's that one with the transvestites from space? What? You know, dude, as soon as I say it, you're gonna know. It's a Rocky Horror Picture Show. Oh, I've never seen that. Okay, that's an

Starting point is 00:21:49 embarrassing one. I went to a showing of rock horror and it was downtown Santa Cruz and everybody's all dressed up and dragging all this weird stuff. I was like, whoa, what did I just see? But it was fun. Everybody's like's like you know really getting in there say the lines and stuff you know which one movie that is right look it up Doug so it's like a musical rocky horror film horror picture show it's a cult like I've heard of it I don't know I know I have for it's what's his name what is his name I love that you pick apart covers and that you actually chose that cover. Like you have that cover at Blockbuster and you're like,

Starting point is 00:22:30 this few good men looks like terrible. I'm going to watch this one. I never, yeah, this one's appealing. No, I didn't see that. I know Justin. Right up my alley. Those fishnet stockings. Yeah. That dude wearing panties.

Starting point is 00:22:40 Yeah, bro. Like, okay, explain the logic behind that. That cover for me, bro. I never watched it. I never watched it, but I know it was a cult classic and I brought it up because I knew Justin watched it. Damn it. You're right. I was having a conversation with my son, he's like super into like, which is cool, he likes learning like science stuff and whatever. We have a book on the brain, we have a book on reading about dinosaurs, carnivorous plants, you guys know that. So today he was, this morning in fact, before I came here I'm reading him a book, and you know little kids have no concept of like time, right? Like today I'm a long time, they don't know, right?

Starting point is 00:23:13 Yeah, a day is a long time for them. They just don't know, right? So he's talking to me, I'm just, hey, I was cracking up, he goes, bye bye, he goes, dinosaurs, they existed a long time ago. I said, yeah, and he goes, more than 50,000 weeks ago. I mean, I guess so. You're right. 50,000 weeks ago is a lot. I like the way Max does stuff like that. Oh my God, right now he is like super, when he's sick, man, he is attached to his mom,

Starting point is 00:23:42 overly sensitive, you cannot joke with him. You can't do anything He's doing sir. Oh, dude Katrina. So last night so he's on he's on the minute No, I know better like I like I just I leave the two of them like literally I don't when Max is sick I don't see Katrina and them for like days Like they literally just said they stay on their side of the house. They just he's attached her She can't go the bathroom without him going where you going? Bring me with you. She's like, oh my god. Oh, yeah. He's like that. It's it's crazy So she he's starting to feel better and she's talking to him and he goes mommy

Starting point is 00:24:16 What happens if you get sick and then she goes well, then you're gonna have to take care of me He goes just starts crying And she goes honey, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. That's not a funny Next ten minutes he's crying Yeah, you can't fuck with him you can't write that time he's so Has he ever followed you the bathroom? Oh, he's I mean when he's healthy He does that when we we went through a phase. I don't know if you went through this at all But I and you guys remember you went through this at all,

Starting point is 00:24:45 but you guys remember, I talked about this on the podcast, there was a time when, I wanna say when he was about one and a half till three, where he was, I couldn't, there was actually a period of time for probably, even a little less than that, maybe a year, where I couldn't leave his site. If I left the room- He was glued to you.

Starting point is 00:25:04 Yeah, so he had to go with me. And I literally had to carry him. If I went to the bathroom, I'm holding him going to the bathroom. I was like, if I was home, and daddy was home, he had to be wherever I was at. It did not matter where I was. So my son will do this in the morning.

Starting point is 00:25:15 Like, I'm going to the bathroom. I'm coming with you. Well, I mean, I had to go, I had to go number two. So I said, okay. I brought him in. He don't come to the bathroom no more. Oh, really? Yeah, that was the last time. You're gonna use the fireworks.

Starting point is 00:25:27 He's sitting there and we're just talking and he's like, tell me a story. So I'm telling a story and he starts to make a face. He's like, I don't want to, I don't want to be in here anymore. Like you want it, you wanted to be in here bro. Now you got to stay in here buddy. I'm gonna go get some matches. And then my, my what? My almost two-year-old daughter, when I go pee, I don't want her in there anymore because I would go pee and she would chill. But now she looks, she looks up like, huh? And I'm like, all right, you're gonna get to the age where you remember this. Too much investigating. You gotta get out of here. No more. No more. I don't want no memories. Wizard sleeve anymore. we created a monster. What? What? You see wizard sleep?

Starting point is 00:26:05 That's not me, bro. That's why I used to call it. That's not me, buddy. We're European Catholic, you hear? Okay. All right, all right. You never know. You never know.

Starting point is 00:26:16 I didn't check. I didn't check. No, you didn't check. I'm assuming. So we're trying to backpedal right now because I think I told you guys this too, on the show, that one of the things I love that he does is he's definitely a negotiator, but he negotiates everything now. And so I hear Katrina in the other room.

Starting point is 00:26:36 Let him have it though. Yeah, that's how I feel, man. I'm like- It's a good skill. I like that skill. I'm like, I'm so- It's very good skill. So long as we go back and forth and, and he's, and he is open. Like it's not just, it's not like he tries to negotiate that and cries. He doesn't get away. It's like, he'll keep going. You can keep going with them like, wow. Okay. If we do that,

Starting point is 00:26:53 then you only get one book. If we do that, then we have tomorrow where to do this. Like you could go back and forth with them and then finally be like, okay, that's a deal. You know, say like, you'll do that. And so, uh, but the other day Katrina, I was teasing Katrina. I came home, I had pulled out some cash and I put it on the counter and Katrina moved it and I was like, did you take my money? I guess he overheard it. And so yesterday, the money was in our drawer in the kitchen or what that, and she was pulling it out and he saw her and he's like, did you take daddy's money? She's like like daddy's money is mommy's money no

Starting point is 00:27:28 it's not that's daddy's money did you hear yeah yeah jump in there I wasn't this is Katrina telling me afterwards she's like getting on to me you know you gotta be careful what you say around him about our money you don't say I said why did you take my money You know what I'm saying? I said, why, did you take my money? Right? He's like, that's right. I got eyes everywhere.

Starting point is 00:27:47 Yeah, yeah. Don't be taking my money. I got my son on you. You know what I'm saying? He'll call you out on that shit. Oh, that's so good. I love that song. Is he still selling to his family members?

Starting point is 00:27:57 Yeah, he's definitely. Oh, yeah, the pictures. Yeah, yeah, the pictures. He's definitely. That's my favorite trait currently about him right now is the negotiating. His ability to, for a kid who feels like his vocabulary was behind, his communication skills, his negotiation skills, his understanding of selling to get what he want, that's like ahead.

Starting point is 00:28:21 So he was behind forever on speech and vocabulary and all those things, but he seems so advanced when it comes to like understanding like the art of a deal. Is he still super into math? Oh yeah, he's really good at math. Math has been... What's that show you haven't watched? Number Blocks, bro. That's the one. I was trying to remember the other day. I don't know if that... I had quite a few people after I talked about on the show that they got their kids into it and they said the same thing. They swore like, like oh my god same thing with my kid I mean some kids take to it some kids don't um he just and I don't know I think that's for everybody like I mean look at your son with the science thing right now like he's once they become obsessed like you just you lean you lean into it right and then

Starting point is 00:28:58 they'll go keep going if they're obsessed let them be obsessed and go with it that's how I was learn and remember yeah that's how I was with number blocks. And it didn't take long for me to see it, where I was like, oh shit, this kid, he barely could count to like 25, and then all of a sudden he's counting to 100, he's adding, he's subtracting. And I was like, and he's, it's wild.

Starting point is 00:29:17 So if he could do stuff, and I love to challenge him like this now, is where he'll see something that'll be like, for a kid that age, they don't even teach addition yet. Right now it's just counting. Like you're pre-kidney garden, you're counting. You don't add and subtract, but he's already adding and subtracting. And he's not just adding and subtracting, he's like adding complex numbers.

Starting point is 00:29:36 And I can do things now with them because that number blocks, they teach them how to count in fives and tens, in twos and multiples of threes. Oh, wow. So I can do things with them where a number will be like, uh, 20 plus 12, you know, which would for a kid that age, that would be really hard. And he'll, he'll sit on there and you can see him trying to figure it out and go, well, what's 20 plus 10. He's got that right away. 30. Okay. Two more son. Oh, 32. Like, so he's, like, he's learning how to break it down really fast,

Starting point is 00:30:04 like because he's been taught all the multiples. Oh okay, if it's 10 plus 20, I know that right away because I already know how to count. And then you just add two. And then I just add two. Yeah, we just got this, it's not a toy, it's a learning thing, but it's got these two hands on it like this, and they're Velcro, and it comes with numbers.

Starting point is 00:30:19 And so you put one number up here, and then you move the fingers down to match whatever's on the number. So it's all kinesthetic plus the numbers, and it adds up. And so now he's learning how to do that with his fingers, with the hands. Do you know what your son would be good for right now? He's at that age. I have a bunch if you want them because Max hasn't used it in a long time. But have you seen the leapfrog of they touch the words and it reads it? Yeah, we have that. Oh, you do? Yeah, we do. That one's money too. I was like, oh, that's brilliant Like so the kids it touched the words

Starting point is 00:30:45 They see the word they hear the word and then so he could read the book to himself I think that was a great tool. We use that you know trying to think of the things that I mean We have a lot and we've tried a lot of different things. There's certain things Like number blocks like the leapfrog reading that you know, I saw us implement it and I went. Oh, wow I saw the you know, it's, oh wow, I saw the lead. It's funny, a study just, I pulled up a study, in fact, I saved it to bring it up because you just reminded me of it.

Starting point is 00:31:11 There's a study that was done on exercise and mental health for children. This was done, this was at a Finland, and the summary says, a recent study found that good physical fitness from childhood to adolescence is linked to better mental health and adolescence. So the connecting physical fitness to better mental health. Of course. There's a couple reasons for this. One is the brain is a physical part of the body so when you have a healthy hardware you're less likely to be depressed, less likely to be

Starting point is 00:31:46 anxious because the brain itself is healthy. But I also think there's another part, which is, there's a learning that happens from kinesthetic, from movement. Yes. And the way the brain develops when you're young, this is different when you're older. When you're older, getting very specialized is a

Starting point is 00:32:02 good idea. But when you're younger, and we see this in studies on athletic performance, a child that does five different sports growing up will do better at one sport later that they really like, than if they focused on just that one sport their whole life. Because their body can react and adjust to certain variables. If you're not exposed to those variables in this one sport only then you're not going to be you know as accomplished of

Starting point is 00:32:29 an athlete. When you're a child your brain is so plastic and so moldable and so shapeable that you're better off developing the whole thing. So if you develop the whole thing which includes music, language, movement, touch, emotion, all that stuff. The more you develop all of them, the better you develop each of them. Well, it also highlights how the body and the brain adapts and it adapts in both directions.

Starting point is 00:32:55 I mean, even as we age, forget just when you're a kid, like okay, when you're a kid, you do all those things for what the point Justin made, but if we don't do those things, then the brain says there's no need for it. There's no need for me to know what a 360 twist and crossover is because in my sport, I don't need that. So therefore I don't understand.

Starting point is 00:33:12 My body doesn't need to communicate and speak to those muscles. Never been challenged in that. Versus the kid who's tried all the different sports that challenges in all different planes and all different ways of stability and, and all the different directions. And it's like, Oh, okay, this is familiar, so that when those unfamiliar things happen, their bodies go, oh.

Starting point is 00:33:31 Not to mention the skills you develop, right? So that you can apply that will give you an advantage over the other competitors. And it's not just physical, though. Again, what I'm trying to express here is when you're young, the brain grows so fast when you're a kid, right? It's all data that you're learning. Developing're young, the brain grows so fast when you're a kid, right? So like. It's all data that you're learning.

Starting point is 00:33:46 Developing the entirety of the brain means that each individual part develops better. So in other words, if you want your kid to be a math whiz, you're better off having them learn a lot of different things. Music. Than just math, okay? Even though you're gonna spend more time on just math,

Starting point is 00:34:02 they'll be worse off than if they develop the brain in the entirety. Now later on later on as you get older then it becomes specialized And it's like okay focus all your time on this one thing but if you if you don't develop the kinesthetic awareness and touch and Emotion and music and all these different things you actually hurt these are thinking and we know this now So we've taken a lot of these things out of school thinking we need to focus all of our energy on STEM. And what we're finding is that kids are actually getting hurt because they don't... And music is a big one. Music is huge.

Starting point is 00:34:32 It's huge, yeah. It's a very, very big one. I love that for learning. You spoke about kinesthetic. Have you guys seen... Now they have these tiles, I guess it's in Japan, where they have these sort of sensors that you step on top of the tiles and it compresses it. It captures that energy. So literally, you know, that they're putting them out on walkways and so they can actually collect the generate energy and their energy and then translate it to a battery. What? Yeah, it makes it's great. It makes perfect sense.

Starting point is 00:35:01 I remember a long time ago, there was a gym in Oregon that was like trying to develop this entire like. It was almost like. No it was brilliant, like all the treadmills, all the things like that was supposed to power the facility. Do you remember how it worked? So you paid a membership, but you could take the price of the membership down. Is that how much energy?

Starting point is 00:35:19 That's what we thought would be a good idea. I think we said that. Is that what we said? Yeah, we said that. We did. Yeah, we said that. I feel like they were working on that. I don't know if it ever became a public thing. Oh, this is how this works right here, huh? That's the kinesthetic tiles.

Starting point is 00:35:31 Yeah. People walking. Yeah, so it powers the lights. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I mean, I just love innovations. It seems like they're just maximizing opportunities. So it's not like we're, we're doing anything different. We're just capturing energy now. Yeah. That's, that's really cool. I want to look up the gym thing that we're talking about. Cause I do, I do remember talking about that way back when I think it was our

Starting point is 00:35:56 idea. I think we, we brought that chip added that. And then I think we said, you know, what would be cool is what you would do is you would give them a price and then if they- You could work it down. Yes, you could work it down. That was our idea. That wasn't something being done.

Starting point is 00:36:08 I thought it was a good idea. Yeah. That's really cool. No, it is a good idea. And I don't know why that wouldn't have taken off. I mean, it makes sense that a gym like that. It does, but I wonder how efficient and effective it is. It's okay.

Starting point is 00:36:23 So let's use the example of the tiles, right? Sounds like a brilliant idea, except how long does it take to offset the energy that cost of producing and creating repairing them and right now, who knows, if it doesn't offset the energy that's used to do that, then it's actually not efficient. Doesn't make any sense. Yeah. That's what people need to do. It's kind of like wind power and stuff like that where you're like, oh no, when you actually look into it in terms of like it disrupting the environment,

Starting point is 00:36:48 and I guess there's been a big problem with whales because of the vibration, the sound, it's actually been beaching a lot of whales. Yeah. What? The wind farms, because of the sound and the vibrations that they're producing, it's causing, because whales are very sensitive to sound, and it's causing them to beach and stuff vibrations that they're producing, it's causing, because whales are very sensitive to sound.

Starting point is 00:37:05 And it's causing them to beach and stuff like that. Interesting, almost like it's communicating to them and so they don't know. I think it's just confusing them. It's like a annoying, yeah, it disrupts their whole pattern here. You know that's what they- Navigational pattern.

Starting point is 00:37:17 Dude, how, okay, what's even more, how do you make that connection? All of a sudden these whales are getting beached somewhere and you're just like, oh, it's definitely the windmills. Yeah, I don't know what they do. I mean, like- I don't know, somebody's been studying it. Yeah, like who made that connection? Like all of a sudden these whales are getting beat somewhere and you're just like, Oh, it's definitely the windmills. Yeah. I don't know what the, I mean, like, who made that connection? Like who would have thought like, Oh, whales are getting marine biologists. Must be the windmills around the corner. Like that. I wouldn't even think to, wouldn't even think that.

Starting point is 00:37:36 No, I know that that like a great white sharks had never been able to be kept in captivity because of something to do with how they sense their surroundings. Oh man. That, that remind reminded me of in South Africa, I believe there was an orca that they found, it was on a killing spree, killed like 14 great whites. Oh yeah. Yeah, they're getting so much, I swear if there's any species out there

Starting point is 00:38:00 that's evolving right in front of us, it's the orca. Have you seen them hunt? Yeah. Some of the ways that they Have you seen them hunt? Yeah. Some of the ways that they hunt? I have. They're taking out boats now, because you know. But I didn't know it's evolving. I thought it's always been like that.

Starting point is 00:38:10 There's different pods of orcas. We'll have different hunting techniques, and they'll learn from each other. Like I know I've seen those videos where they all work together to get a seal. To get the wave. To get the seal to fall off the ice. And it's pretty wild to watch them do stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, crazy.

Starting point is 00:38:26 I didn't know that that was technically evolving, though. Speaking of the environment and stuff, I was reading up on these, what are they called, forever chemicals? It's a class of chemicals that are in non-stick cookware, it's in clothing, it can be sprayed on surfaces. They call them forever chemicals because they stick around. They call them forever chemicals because they

Starting point is 00:38:45 don't they stick around. And they do affect the body. I looked up forever chemicals and what they're most strongly connected to. Testicular and kidney cancer were the strongest connections. Yeah those are the strongest connections although they've also been connected to cardiovascular issues and other cancers and these chemicals are disgusting. You know that they're finding it rain? Yeah. Really? Yeah, a lot of different places.

Starting point is 00:39:07 In fact, it's almost impossible if you live in a modern society to be completely rid of them. Basically what you're doing- That's so frustrating. Basically what you're doing is managing your exposure. One of the- So, but yeah, but Teflon's a big one, right? A big contributor to that? Your cookware is huge. Cookware is a big one, right? A big contributor to that. Your cookware is huge.

Starting point is 00:39:25 Cookware's a big one, so do not use cookware that has any of these forever chemicals. There's a company we just started working with called Our Place. Oh, that's the name of the company. Our Place. That's the pans that we have? Yes, so they're cast iron, but they're coated in ceramic,

Starting point is 00:39:40 I believe. Ceramic, yes. So it's easy, non-stick, whatever, but no forever chemicals. We use them like crazy. I don't know if you guys do or not. Super high quality. Ceramic, yes. So they don't, so it's easy, non-stick, whatever, but no forever chemicals. We use them like crazy. I don't know if you guys do or not. Super high quality. Yeah they are, they're really nice.

Starting point is 00:39:49 And I love cast iron, the way it heats things up and everything, it's just so. I have some family, you know my cousin who lives up in Seattle, like they're like super organic everything, like homeschool, all the good stuff, right? And she found out that we were partnered with them, she like freaked out, oh my God, it's like my favorite brand. Really?

Starting point is 00:40:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They had already had like their whole house already done in them. And I mean Katrina and I, I remember when we first got them before we even partnered with them, like I was like, oh, these are awesome. So excited to work with them. I didn't know that we continued,

Starting point is 00:40:17 I didn't realize that, that's awesome. Yeah, speaking of partners, we got our Organifi report. So that, for people that know that, that's the company, we've been with them the longest, right? All sponsors now? Yeah, they have to be the longest, yeah. The top seller by far, by far, by far, is their Green Juice, still.

Starting point is 00:40:32 I just had some right now. Still always is. Number one. Always is, and they've been selling Green Juice now for a long time. They were the first ones, popular ones? Yeah, they were one of the first ones, yeah. How much for, at least 10 years they've been doing it.

Starting point is 00:40:44 I was gonna say, most people know them or Athlet athletic greens. How far back do they go in comparison to the two? Yeah so I was looking that up earlier and I we met Drew with Organifi back in I think 2013 and they were doing the greens back then. Back then but they'd already been doing them for a few years. Yeah. So they've got to have been around for at least 13, 14, maybe 15 years. I mean, you gotta credit Drew that he's been on the front end of a lot of like. I would have never thought a green juice as a supplement even 15 years ago.

Starting point is 00:41:13 But they crush, it's the number one best seller because of the re-signs or how many people repurchase. I mean, it makes the most sense in the case like where, at least how I use it, right? So I got called out recently, the people were, because I've been obviously showing my food every day, and they're like, you don't eat a lot of vegetables.

Starting point is 00:41:31 Where's your greens? Yeah, they're like, you don't eat a lot, but, and I don't, because when I prep, I cannot stand reheated vegetables. Like, that is just, ugh. Really? Yeah. Yeah, you like reheated vegetables? I don't, what do you mean?

Starting point is 00:41:42 I'll just eat it. Oh, man, that's not like, vegetables already are not like the top of the list for me as it is. I mean, I like them. Olive oil, let's throw some olive oil on it. Reheated? Yeah, olive oil makes everything taste okay. Oh, soggy?

Starting point is 00:41:53 Yeah, it's a little mush. Yeah, soggy broccoli or soggy asparagus? Yeah. Okay, yeah, no, so I got a problem with it. Yeah, yeah. So, I definitely, so when I normally prep, and the way it works is that the meal I make that night, we almost always have some like, you know, spinach asparagus or something or like the broccoli or whatever with the dinner. But then when I prep the meals, I just do rice and the meat. I mean, it's almost always rice and meat or sweet potato and meat or white potato and meat.

Starting point is 00:42:20 So you just do the green juice. And then, yeah. And then I just pay attention like to my digestion, my energy, stuff like that, and it's like, and I'm like, oh, okay, it's been a few days of like eating like that, and then I'll just make sure to introduce it. Speaking of food, I just read a study on toddlers. Toddlers, 50% of their diet is heavily processed foods.

Starting point is 00:42:38 The average toddler. 50%? Half, half. And this is exceptionally bad because toddlers, children are developing their eating habits and their palate at that age. This is when they develop the, this is why it's so important. Turns into their preferences later on.

Starting point is 00:42:56 It's so important to introduce little kids to different textures and flavors and whatever, because you actually develop it for the rest of their life. So these are kids learning processed foods at least half the time. You're setting them up. You know, when we had Max, that was a popular question that I always thought was really interesting.

Starting point is 00:43:14 People were always asking, like, oh, what do you feed him and how do you feed him? I'm like, he eats what we eat. I mean, from a very, very, I mean, obviously we had to sometimes had to tear it up into tiny little pieces when he was barely developing. We ended up when he was real tiny. Yeah, but I mean, like he ate exactly what we ate.

Starting point is 00:43:31 Like we didn't get, it was like we ate and then I gave him a jar of baby food or some shit. It was like, no, we're eating chicken and sweet potatoes. You're eating chicken and sweet potatoes. We're having steak and rice day. You're eating steak and rice day. It was like the norm and like, I don't know. It's interesting that, I mean, to me,

Starting point is 00:43:46 I think that highlights how conditioned we are to marketing and advertising. Yes. Because so many commercials are, so much money is put into commercials of all these baby foods, and they're convenient, so I get it, right? Because it's like, there's a convenient factor, and then the marketing factor of like,

Starting point is 00:44:02 they make you think that this is a better, healthier it's like no a better healthier choice is to feed your kid the way you take care of yourself. There is no such thing as baby food yeah you know toddler food there's food yeah and you just cut it up smaller. That's it, it's making it smaller. Yeah I remember when my four-year-old was he started moving into solids more solids Jessica was just blending we actually broke three blenders because of this. She would blend tri-tip and sweet potato. Just, and it was his favorite thing. Oh, he got husky.

Starting point is 00:44:32 He got real thick. That's how he loved it. He's on that bulk. Oh yeah. It's so good too though, because I really think, I know Justin's talked a little bit about this because he's admittedly was different with the two kids, right, and I think you've admitted that you see

Starting point is 00:44:46 the difference as they got older with their palates and how their eating habits are. And I feel like Max is such a good eater, but I think it's because of the foundation that we laid. Everything from the way we were with sweets to the way we were with Whole Foods. So food is not, like we haven't had this battle that so many of my friends have all gone through.

Starting point is 00:45:01 Like almost every one of my friends have gone through a food battle with their kids at some point in their early five years. You can still win the battle though. I'll tell you that. I'm sure you can, right? Yeah. So it's, it's not like a hopeless thing. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it is. I mean, if you set them up, it's so important cause then, yeah, you won't have quite as much of the challenge later cause that's what they're

Starting point is 00:45:20 going to prefer. Yeah. Just I was going to ask you, you had said in a text a few days ago, maybe a week ago, about the gym in Santa Cruz that they're building or whatever. Oh, yeah. I was trying to tell you guys how awesome this new facility is going to be, and we've got to be members.

Starting point is 00:45:37 It's insane. So why is it so cool, too? My buddy Chris. Yeah, Chris. So they own the Santa Cruz Power Fitness right now. And we went over there to kind of highlight, you know, his business and kind of get some insight on like how he runs it and like how they became successful and whatnot for the coaches.

Starting point is 00:45:55 Because, you know, we thought that like a lot of our coaches and trainers, like we'd like to give them examples of like somebody who's, you know, been able to kind of make it through a lot of the trials tribulations that is really hard I mean we've literally deter people from the idea of like owning a gym Yeah, and so to get somebody that could actually articulate it and like highlight all these like Problems they had and were able to overcome was really cool. But anyway this new facility they're building it's Huge it's right next to this Whole Foods. It's it's it's a sports club And so it's like you go in there and to the left is gonna be like all recovery

Starting point is 00:46:33 It's gonna have like a thing now. They're putting in all them. That's great. Yeah, okay So here's one thing that I thought was brilliant. I don't know if Camille like I don't think she like Invented it but idea, they looked into it and they got kind of a way to kind of figure this out. So instead of having cold plunges, you know, that occupy a bit of space, like they're they had they turned that into a shower, they call it snow shower. And so tomorrow, so they can, but they have to outfit the piping and everything So it's it can keep that really cold temperature and not freeze and so you go in and it's like

Starting point is 00:47:12 40 degrees and and so they're gonna have it so you can kind of taper the Temperature and so you can like start with like a little bit warmer and you can kind of like titrate it down And then I'm like yeah, do the Wim Hof like method right there. Boom. And then, you know, you have your red light therapy, you have like, this whole section in the back for trainers to train them in their own private little section. There's the open floor is going to be it's very like kid and parent friendly, like they thought of this whole thing where, you know, they'll, they'll have a space where they basically can, um, they can tutor and then, and then have, have them go through also like almost like a physical education with that and like programming. Uh, and then the local, everything,

Starting point is 00:47:59 all the contractors to the higher are all local. And so it's like it pulls the community in, like he pulls all the schools in. I just think he's onto something with this. You guys, and it just looks beautiful. You know, sometimes I miss, sometimes, not often, because it takes so much energy. You guys know, but sometimes I miss working in a gym. It's a fun culture.

Starting point is 00:48:19 It's a fun culture. You got music going, people are working out. I miss it, I miss that vibe. There was something about- It's just a lot of energy. You guys know it's out. I miss that vibe. There was something about- It's just a lot of energy. You guys know it's exhausting. I would walk into it. I wouldn't trade what we do for a minute for that.

Starting point is 00:48:30 Not nothing. Even if I made the same kind of money, I still wouldn't trade. It's just a lot of energy. Yeah, it's a lot. It's definitely a lot. But it's rewarding and it's fun and it's so unique. Like what else is like that?

Starting point is 00:48:40 Like there's not a lot of careers or jobs that are like that. No, everybody's in a good mood usually, it's hyped and it's great. I mean, what is kind of unique that I think is really special about our space or being a trainer, if your peer, like how often and what other careers can you guarantee that all of your peers and your coworkers are all growth-minded?

Starting point is 00:49:04 They typically are. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are. I mean, if you are in pursuit of health and wellness and bettering yourself, like it automatically creates kind of a bias of type of people. And even though there's obviously a huge eclectic group

Starting point is 00:49:20 of different types of trainers, and there's people you're gonna probably like and not like that's's inevitable, it does at least create a commonality in all of us where a lot of jobs that doesn't necessarily, you could be a whole group of engineers and you have really different, maybe personality similarities, but having all that like a core common thing like that,

Starting point is 00:49:39 I don't know, I feel like that's easy to do. No, I worked in the banking industry for a very short period of time and hated it. Very, oh my- How long did you last again? It wasn't very long at all. I almost thought you said baking. No, I thought you said-

Starting point is 00:49:51 I was in the baking industry. Yeah, imagine me baking. How long was it? It wasn't very long, was it? No, I got in, I was a premier banker for Bank of America and then I got my Series 6 and 63 license and then shortly after opened up my studio This is way back in the day, but so it must have been a six month process, but I'm sitting in the bank

Starting point is 00:50:12 You know what you sounds like when you sit in the bank you hear the AC. That's what you hear here And when you talk you talk like this everybody talks like this and everybody goes to lunch And then they come back and everybody gone by five o'clock and I can't walk in and yell, yeah, what's up, what's happening? What do you do? Bro, you know how often people told me to keep it down in the bank?

Starting point is 00:50:33 So it was the worst. And banks are known for like, there's super traffic times and then there's dead times like crazy, right? So what does a banker normally do when there's nobody? They sit. When it's 11 a.m. on Tuesday? Just sit there. Calls, anything?

Starting point is 00:50:49 Yes, calls, but not really. I was making calls. Listen, I was making calls. Who you calling? This is all our listeners, I feel like. The bank manager. You know how often this happened? I'd make a call, because remember, I was an investment.

Starting point is 00:51:02 So my job was to get people who had certain size accounts to want to do investments or whatever. Okay, so what you would do is you probably got a whole bunch of people, leads, from the bank of like, hey, these are everybody who have a million dollars in their account, call them. So I'm on the phone calling, and this happened enough times to where I was like, I can't stand this.

Starting point is 00:51:21 I'm on the phone, and I got sales in my blood, right? I'm on the phone talking. Bank manager will come back, can you please keep it down? I'm like, oh, what the fuck? I can't stand. I was about to ramp it up. You know, I can't do this, you know? It was the only time in my life where I watched the clock.

Starting point is 00:51:39 I'd never done that before. When I'm looking at the clock, when's lunchtime? Like, get me out of here. I remember watching the clock. Yeah, having a job where you watch the clock is like painful. Nightmare. When I worked assembly line stuff in factories, it was like that.

Starting point is 00:51:51 No, nightmare can't do that. Never, never has. Any desk job. Yeah, any job where you watch the clock, it's like painful. Imagine if there's people that work that way everyday, dude. Yeah, I know. I know.

Starting point is 00:52:02 And God bless you, man. You're honest, you work hard, good for you. I just couldn't do it. The gym, totally different. Totally different. Sometimes I miss it. Shout out? Yeah, I'm going to shout out Chris and Santa Cruz Power

Starting point is 00:52:16 Fitness. So let's see. What's his handle? Chris Ellis IFBB Pro. So it goes Chris underscore Ellis underscore IFBB underscore pro. There you go. Yeah great Jim. Go give him some love. Element is an electrolyte powder you put in your water no artificial sweeteners no sugar it adds the right amount of sodium to give you better workouts better pumps more

Starting point is 00:52:39 energy and it tastes amazing. Go check them out it's the best electrolyte powder you'll find anywhere. Go to www.drinkelementt.com forward slash mind pump on that link you'll get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase. Alright back to the show. Our first caller is Abby from Texas. Hi Abby. How you doing Abby? How you doing? Hi, how are y'all doing? Good. How can we help you? How are you? Good, yeah so off, just wanted to say thank you for all the content, all the resources y'all put out there. It's helped me as an athlete, as a trainer and overall person. So I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:53:15 Awesome. So I'll just jump right in. So I'll kind of read off what I put in the email and we'll go from there. So I've been playing sports my entire life. Found a passion for beach volleyball in the beginning of high school and pursued that. Committed to playing college, played all four years in college, found a love for strength training and nutrition throughout high school and college as well. My own goals were usually pushed aside as a student athlete as I couldn't go on a cut or do the training that I particularly wanted to do as I had to put my sport first. So I kind of always looked forward to graduating and getting outside of sports so that I could train and eat how I wanted without the restraints.

Starting point is 00:54:05 So now that I'm graduated, I'm working in the fitness industry and I've kind of, you know, asked myself what's next for me. My mind has often wandered towards bodybuilding, but I wouldn't pursue that fully as to go compete on stage, but rather as my own journey to commit to and document. Just a goal to pursue to challenge myself again. It intrigues me, but my mind and body, you know, it kind of worries me the short and long-term effects of that. So I've also thought about powerlifting or weightlifting and if that would be a better route

Starting point is 00:54:45 as they both have the competitive atmosphere as well and a challenge that I can pursue. So I'm just kind of struggling with what direction I want to pursue, which one's the healthiest option for me and most attainable. And just as like a follow up question to whatever y'all do say, like, how do I approach my training and nutrition going forward? I'm just kind of, kind of a standstill where I want to proceed from here. So you know, you know what these two guys are going to suggest? They're definitely going to push you. They're going to push you in the direction of the power lifting. Not necessarily. So I think they're both incredible for different reasons, right? Like I think there's a lot of value in both.

Starting point is 00:55:27 I think, and it sounds like you have a really good mindset around health, fitness, and exercise. And so I would think that you're probably a good candidate for somebody who would want to try to do bodybuilding, you know, going with the attitude and the approach of, hey, I just like treating it like an experiment and learning about nutrition and taking it to that level. I mean, I, to this day, I think that that period of time in my life taught me more about nutrition

Starting point is 00:55:51 than all my prior certifications and years' experience with regular clients. I mean, it forced me to really dive into the nitty-gritty of understanding nutrition and how it affects the body and then feeling it going through it. So I saw tremendous value and I, and I think I've, I've been a better communicator around nutrition because of it. Uh, so I love that, right? But I also think that powerlifting has, I mean, you want to talk about having to know your programming really well. Like you got it, you cannot, you got to, you powerlifting, there's no room for like bodybuilding.

Starting point is 00:56:23 There's no room for air and nutrition. You can have a subpar programming but if you're dialed nutritionally you're going to bring a good physique. Powerlifting is the opposite. You can have kind of subpar nutrition but you can't have you got to be dialed in programming so they in my opinion they both are incredibly valued for different reasons. I guess the question I would ask you is which one do you excite you more to learn about right now and maybe you end up doing both but which one do you want to focus on and then we talk about like how you approach that. Abby if you're gonna compete, if this is gonna be something you're gonna do competitions in then I'll pick powerlifting. It's gonna be a healthier sport. Bodybuilding competition is just not a healthy, it's not mentally healthy for people, especially for women.

Starting point is 00:57:07 If you're not gonna compete, if it's just for you, and it's a question of the training and the focus, bodybuilding's very healthy. Bodybuilding's easy on the body, it's easier on the joints than powerlifting. You learn great technique with exercise, diet, it's all awesome. So if you're not gonna compete, if this is just for you, then I would pick powerlifting.

Starting point is 00:57:29 Now the other thing is that you're in the fitness industry and you're working as a coach and a trainer, you're probably going to want to do all of it. You go through a phase of bodybuilding, go through a phase of powerlifting. Weightlifting is the highest skill demands of all of the lifting sports, but being a high level athlete, you might like that. You might like the skill aspect of it. A lot of people don't have the patience to perfect the skill of weightlifting because it takes a long time to get really good at weightlifting, far longer

Starting point is 00:58:00 than, you know, any other conventional lifts. But if it's just for you, like, have a good time. If you have to pick one and it's just for you and you want the healthiest one, bodybuilding. If you're gonna compete, powerlifting. If it's all for you and you're not competing, I think you should do all of it. Yeah, surprisingly, I would probably lean first

Starting point is 00:58:19 with bodybuilding. I know, it's surprising. But the reason is, is because you're a trainer. And I feel like it's probably the most relevant in terms of, you know, you getting your average client and being able to go through that process yourself of being, you know, so dialed in, in terms of like, you know, how each, you know, how nutrition is really affecting you and your performance in the gym and how you can move.

Starting point is 00:58:48 Body composition, right? Body composition is just a huge pursuit most people are going to come into wanting to nail down. I watched Adam go through that and just how he geek out on just having enough water and how that all that stuff, you of communicate that so much better in terms of like, maybe it's so do you, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, that you're feeling, you know, out of shape and bloated and this and that. And so I think for talking points, I think, and to it's a little bit less, you know, like it's in terms of risk reward with clients, I think that, you know, bodybuilding provides a little bit more, you know, less risk and more result.

Starting point is 00:59:30 But in terms of the actual powerlifting for you individually, that's where I would go if it's like a total individual pursuit. So it's not much different than their answers, but in terms of where I see it as a coach, I would probably lean there first just to be able to be a better communicator. It does sound like we're all on kind of the same page

Starting point is 00:59:48 and it really comes back to, are you doing this more for the competitive Abby and so you wanna choose something that interests you competitively? Or are you doing this because you want to enhance your skills as a trainer? Because that is probably how I would side-fine it. Yeah, are you gonna compete in any of these or is this all just for you?

Starting point is 01:00:07 So for bodybuilding, like I probably just do that for my own, uh, knowledge on experience, um, but if I did do power lifting, I probably would try to get in a competition or two, just to push myself a little bit more, but if it was bodybuilding, I'd probably just do my own. My own journey with that. All right. Well, okay. Then do this, start with bodybuilding for yourself.

Starting point is 01:00:30 And when you get that, cause you're, you're an athlete, you've been training, you've been competing for years, you're going to get the itch to compete. Okay. Then go to powerlifting and compete. Do don't compete in bodybuilding and getting on stage, getting judged by your appearance. What's the, cause this is like a road to terrible relationship with exercise and diet. So I would say go bodybuilding.

Starting point is 01:00:50 And then when you're like, you know what, I wanna compete, just go to powerlifting. By the way, the same exercise and powerlifting you're gonna use in bodybuilding as well. So it's not that hard of a transition. It's just a focus on technique is different and the programming changes a bit. Yeah, so I guess, first off, I'm shocked.

Starting point is 01:01:06 Y'all said that I listened to so many of your podcasts where y'all usually lean the opposite direction. I listened to one the other day, y'all's power lifting versus bodybuilding. I'm like, Oh, they're for sure. You're going to tell me to go power lifting. So I'm shocked, but I'm like secretly excited.

Starting point is 01:01:20 Like I wanted y'all to say this, but I guess from here, like, how do I approach my training and nutrition? Uh, because I'm kind'all to say this, but I guess from here, like how do I approach my training and nutrition? Um, because I'm kind of going to do this like on my own, on my own research. I'm not, not going to hire, you know, a coach or anything. So I guess a couple, a couple of guidance points to help me out. First of all, uh, let me get Doug to put you in our private forum if you're not already in there because we have a lot of trainers that have competed and other and there's actually clients of mine that I've helped do a bikini show do stuff. So definitely a great community.

Starting point is 01:01:55 If you're going to be doing this on your own and not hiring a coach, that is going to be a great resource for you to just like ask people what their experiences like a lot of trainers that have done it inside that forum. So definitely utilize that in the community. If you're not watching the series I'm doing on YouTube, you should definitely be watching that because that's kind of similar to that, right? The part that's most important, I always tell people when it comes to competing

Starting point is 01:02:19 in bodybuilding, it's really setting yourself up. The real work is done before you go into prep. The diet part of cutting calories, increasing movement, and that stuff is really just shredding you down and revealing the work that you've put into building your metabolism, building your body. So really the work is before the prep on that. And so, and a lot of that comes down to

Starting point is 01:02:44 how your training is right now. Where are you at metabolically? Like, are you in a healthy place calorie wise? Like that would be very important. Like I wouldn't even take a female client of mine if she told me, hey, I don't want to get ready for your bikini show. And I said, well, how many calories a day

Starting point is 01:02:57 do you eat currently right now just to make your maintenance? And they'd say things like, oh, like 2000. That's my maintenance. I'm like, yeah, you're not in a good place to do a cut. Like I need to get your metabolism up to 26, 2800 calories plus if I'm gonna put you in a cut like that for that long of a period of time. So that is the stuff that you should be doing right now

Starting point is 01:03:16 is tracking calories, finding out what is your maintenance, getting yourself up to a healthy place metabolically to prepare yourself for an extended cut. Yeah. Since you're not going to compete in bodybuilding, just, I would say go with that and in programming wise, start with maps and a Bollock do the three day a week version and then aesthetic, and then you can either do aesthetic or symmetry afterwards, but that'll give you a nice, a nice solid foundation.

Starting point is 01:03:40 The roadblocks now here's going to be your roadblocks is going to be trying not to try not to overdo the volume. Bodybuilding can get carried away with just ridiculous amounts of volume and splits and stuff like that. So if you start to notice your strength isn't improving, you're starting to feel fatigued, your sleep is off, then you probably need to drop the volume.

Starting point is 01:03:58 I don't know if you've been listening to us, I don't know how long, but we documented on the podcast, my, I think it was Adam's Road to Pro, we called it. What was that called? So you could go back, we were really bad at podcasting, but we do share the whole journey of me dieting on the show. So there's a whole series of, I don't know, maybe 10 podcasts episode.

Starting point is 01:04:23 Yeah, and I think we called it Adam's journey to pro or road to pro or something like that. Like, so if you go back, no, no, it's like road to pro, something like that. Um, if you use it, ask, ask mind pump, ask mind pump.com and look for, you know, Adam's road to pro or bodybuilding. You'll see a series of episodes that you can listen to too. But do you have, do you have maps and a ball of Abby? Yeah, I'm in, I just started things three of like, I have a set. It, um, do you have symmetry? I do not have symmetry. I'll send you symmetry. You're going to like that program. Okay.

Starting point is 01:04:58 Oh, well, so is there a specific order I should be? So I'm on in a block now. So I finished it and I guess, three weeks. So go to aesthetic or go to symmetry? I like symmetry next while you're tracking your calories, figuring out where your maintenance is, building your metabolism up. And then when you start what would be your prep, even though you're not going to get ready for show, but if you decide, okay, hey, I'm ready to start this cut, I've figured out my caloric maintenance, I've been tracking my steps, I kind of know where my movement is, okay, I'm ready to start the quote-unquote

Starting point is 01:05:31 real diet to get ready to get lean and ripped, then I would transition into MAPS Aesthetic. Okay, okay, and I have a rough estimate, my maintenance is 2300. I maintain there around a couple of probably three months and stay at the same same body mass muscle mass body fat. And I just recently probably last week I was like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna come out here I dropped 500. So I just this past week I've been going at 1800. I'm not super strict. I haven't been doing it to the team, but I've been more mindful. Where's your, where's your body fat percentage right now? Uh, 21.4. Reverse diet.

Starting point is 01:06:16 Yeah, I would reverse diet. Yeah. Start getting your calories up. Reverse diet through this whole process. Yes. So that this would be the recommendation. Follow map symmetry after anabolic with the intent of trying to increase your calories week over week, just slowly.

Starting point is 01:06:29 200 calories, 200 more calories. And I'd like, if you're in the low 20% and we wanna cut for a show, I probably want you at least 2500 plus calories, 2500 calories plus for your maintenance. That's a healthier place. You're not gonna gain body fat, River. I'm gonna tell you right now, you're gonna reverse diet,

Starting point is 01:06:48 you're just gonna build strength and muscle. I don't think your body fat will even go up. And the reason for that, Abby, is if you're at 21% right now, and let's say your maintenance is 22 and you cut to 1800, you're gonna lean out a little bit, but then you're gonna hit a plateau. And you're gonna hit a plateau probably somewhere around

Starting point is 01:07:01 19% body fat or so. And if you're trying to get like bikini ripped, you're gonna want to be lower than that. And then where are we gonna go from there? Down to 1500. Like, so it doesn't give you a lot of runway. I'd want you up 2500 plus calories before I start putting you on a cut for a show. So that, and this is what I mean by this is where the real work is done.

Starting point is 01:07:20 The real work is in setting yourself up metabolically before you get ready for a prep and all the prep really is, is revealing all your hard work. It's showing the physique that you built and how good of a job you did at building your metabolism. That's the real work. Okay. Okay. So symmetry after this, uh, reverse diet, we're going 200 ish calories a week. One to 200 a week. Yep. Until I get 26.

Starting point is 01:07:49 At least around there. You know, like I want you to be up at a place where you feel, I mean, a perfect place is actually pushing you to where you're like, Adam, I can't eat anymore. I would be surprised if you couldn't get yourself up to 28 even without gaining much body fat at all. I think so too.

Starting point is 01:08:04 You're just gonna get really strong, especially with your, with your pedigree. I think you're going to get real strong from doing that. And again, use the forum because obviously we're giving you kind of generic numbers and answers right now off just to give you some sort of guidance, but we don't know for sure where that's going to land, right? Obviously your, your feedback is going to dictate where we go. So just, uh, keep us up to date in the forum. Let us know, Hey, this is what I'm doing right now.

Starting point is 01:08:27 And then tag us and ask other people's opinion. And trust me, people that have done this will be quick to chime in and give your opinion. OK, awesome. Well, I'm excited. Y'all told me what I wanted to hear. So I'm ready to go. I appreciate y'all.

Starting point is 01:08:42 Thank you, Abby. Good luck, Abby. All right, Thank you. Yeah. If you're not going to compete, body building training has got better longevity than powerlifting and weightlifting. Yeah. Well, the reason I went that direction with her too, she's an athlete.

Starting point is 01:08:56 She's been doing like that kind of performance training for so long. She needs to be well versed because like your average person, you know, they're going to come in with these body composition goals And it's like, you know, what a better way to address it I mean, I think that's the best point that you made was that really when you think if you're a trainer The you're gonna get way more value at understanding how to manipulate diet and nutrition for body composition Then you are powerlifting like just a fact.. I mean, you're just gonna, most people, 80% of your clients that hire you

Starting point is 01:09:27 are gonna wanna lose body fat. And so understanding how to build a metabolism. And bodybuilding is still strength training. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're still doing a lot of the important lifts, but it's, so much of training clients is nutrition heavy, and you're gonna get so much more of that from that. Our next caller is Brian from Illinois.

Starting point is 01:09:44 What's up, Brian? How can we help you? Gentlemen, I am so excited to talk to you. Um, I got to thank the four of you for creating something amazing with mind pump. I got to thank Doug too. Appreciate the invite to get on here. I found your podcast about four years ago and I have said so many times, I wish I

Starting point is 01:10:04 had this kind of info in my twenties. I really, I really do. I could have been somebody Justin. I could have been somebody. Hey man, I say the same thing all the time. I'm 45 years old. I understand I'm late to the party. The question I sent in is about maybe failing a bulk. Maybe I ran it too long. I don't know what I'm doing. I'll give you some context if it helps. I was always a skinny fat kid. When I graduated high school, I fell in love with running. And that's how I stayed lean for a lot of years. I probably did 20 miles a week, but I'm a small guy. Five eight. Back then I was 165 pounds. Eventually I found P90X and that's what gave me a love for pushups and pull ups.

Starting point is 01:10:56 But I also had a love hate relationship with P90X. I never could complete the 90 days. I could do it for 60 days, I would just quit. Cause I feel like it would take part of your life away. Listening to you guys, now I understand I was very, very overtrained. But I cycled that for years. I, you know, I'm in that category. You don't know what you don't know, I guess.

Starting point is 01:11:22 Fast forward with the COVID lockdowns. And I know you guys have heard this probably too much, but I noticed I was getting really soft. My wife came across something once and it said COVID will turn you into a hunk, a chunk or a drunk. I'm working on the chunk part, you know, I haven't heard that. Well, that's what I found your podcast. Okay. You know, I haven't heard that. Well, that's what I found your podcast. Okay.

Starting point is 01:11:52 And for the first time I started lifting with rest periods and I did, I did make some good progress from maybe 2020 through 2022 late in 22, I think you had an episode on bulking and I've never done this before. I've never tried to gain weight, you know, like on purpose. So January 2023, I started my first bulk. I think I added maybe a couple hundred calories a week in the beginning. I started probably around 2300, maybe 2500 and I got up to 3700 calories. I went from January 1st, 2023 into this year and by April I was so sick to death of eating all the time I gave up. I started off at 174 pounds and I don't know why I just got in my head.

Starting point is 01:12:40 Maybe I can get up to 190 you know as a small guy that just seemed incredible to me to get up that big. I tapped out at 186. I just couldn't eat anymore. So I'm curious, did I run the bulk for too long? Did I just not eat enough? Was programming an issue? Any insight? Well, let's talk about, did you, I don't necessarily think you did wrong or bad. I mean, how did your body, what happened with your body fat percentage on the journey of gaining all that? Because you went from 174 to 186, right?

Starting point is 01:13:11 Is that what I heard correctly? Correct, yeah, this is the biggest I've ever been in my life. Yeah, okay, so you got all the way up to 186. You've taken your calories from 2,300 to 3,700. If you did a pretty good job of not putting on a ton of body fat along the way, you crushed it. Now, if you put on more body fat than fat along the way, you crushed it. Now,

Starting point is 01:13:25 if you put on more body fat than you put on muscle, well, then we did some things wrong. So have you tested? Do you have any idea on what the body fat percentage was before and now? I got one of those cheesy scales and it pretty much stayed the same right around 20%. I can't say there was a big change. Okay, so that's pretty damn good. I mean, the fact that you were able to put on that much muscle, uh, and your strength went up a lot. Um, I don't know. I I'm 45. Like I said, I, I've never done a PR.

Starting point is 01:13:55 I don't, I've never done that kind of thing. My lifts, I guess, went up a little bit. Um, I just now got a gym membership. First time in my life, a couple of months ago, Jim opened up close to the house. So, uh, I have access now got a gym membership. First time in my life, a couple of months ago, Jim opened up close to the house. So, uh, I have access now to a squat rack. I don't have a squat rack at home. I've got dumbbells, bench, a dip station, pull-up bar, you know. Uh, so I'm happy to add squats in for the first time.

Starting point is 01:14:19 Oh, that's going to be, that's going to be a big deal. That's going to be huge. I mean, if you, if you see strength gains and you're not gaining body fat or a ton of body fat, you, you, you did a big deal. That's gonna be huge. I mean if you see strength gains and you're not gaining body fat or a ton of body fat you did a good job. You're great at measures. Yeah you know this the thing with calories is it doesn't work you know it doesn't always work linearly right so people think that if I just keep increasing the calories I'm gonna keep you know my body's gonna keep responding the way they know there's a limit to how the body's respond typically

Starting point is 01:14:43 when there's a plateau with high calories, then you want to go down into a little cut and change your programming. Typically, it has to do with workout programming. Now, you didn't have a squat rack back then. What were you doing? What did your workout look like? Were you following one of our programs or something else?

Starting point is 01:14:58 I tried. I do have some of your programs. I'm not a mooch, Sal. I've got 15 I bought for the wife. She's enjoying it. I got 15 symmetry, aesthetics and hit. Okay. I tried doing aesthetics.

Starting point is 01:15:12 My, my difficulty, I think that's a lot. Part of my difficulty is, um, time. Yeah, that's a lot. I, I well, I, I get up a quarter to five every morning and that's how I squeeze in a workout Working commercial construction. I'm a tile setter and in addition to that. I'm a full-time volunteer minister So I finally figured out the only way I can get a workout in as if I do it before work There's just no gas in the tank when I get home from work. I just realized that over the years I've been really consistent for four years,

Starting point is 01:15:53 but I'm only doing about 30 minutes a morning, six days a week, 30 minutes of morning, mass 15 advanced program. Advanced is perfect for you. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. You're going to love that. And now that you've added squats, having squats to your routine is going to be massive. I mean, you're talking about the single best exercise that somebody can do trying to pursue building muscle and

Starting point is 01:16:12 or losing body fat and just overall strength. That alone, and Maths 15, it's built around the most important exercises, right? That program, the thought process for us was writing a minimalist program. What if we had to write something that somebody only had 20 minutes or so to work out, what are the exercises we definitely want them to do to gain the most, get the most bang for their buck? That's what that program is. It's perfect for your time constraint.

Starting point is 01:16:40 It's perfect for where you're currently at. And now that you're adding squats, let it do its work. It's going to do phenomenal. And actually what I do with you calorie wise right now, I don't want you really bulking or cutting. Eat when you're hungry, make good food choices, protein centric. Hit your protein intake. That's the number one priority is consistently, not sometimes,

Starting point is 01:16:59 not an average, every day hit your protein intake and make every meal that you choose to eat protein centric and when you're hungry, I want you to eat, but make it centered around protein. So if you feel like you're hungry, it's eight o'clock at night and normally you wouldn't go eat, but make it a protein centric meal. So, you know, my favorite thing late at night, like that's my Greek yogurt thing you might see me do like that's so make those types of choices and let the programming do its work and don't actually over complicate or overthink the calorie thing just eat when you're hungry protein centric meals watch what will happen okay i like that i have tried logging

Starting point is 01:17:37 i haven't logged in a while but when i would do an online calculator it would say my maintenance is roughly 2,700 calories i feel like that's nonsense because if my maintenance is roughly 2,700 calories. I feel like that's nonsense because if I try to eat 2,700 calories and log it by the time it's bedtime, I'm so hungry, I could eat my own teeth. Yeah. Yeah. Those things are, those things are so, they're inaccurate. They're so inaccurate and generic. And it doesn't, it's, you know, the only reason why I like trackers is so you can see you inputting your own food and tracking yourself. What they kick back and tell you you should or shouldn't eat or what it estimates you're burning. I don't pay any attention to that. It's like, eat the best way you're going to find out about where your maintenance is,

Starting point is 01:18:14 is by doing exactly what I said is eating when you're hungry, making good choices, and then look at it after a week about where you land. And then there's your average. That's probably where your maintenance average is. But the key is going to be consistently not missing protein because you're now training the way I'd want you to train you're adding squats and this is gonna be huge so long as you hit that protein intake we're gonna build muscle and you're gonna just slowly lean out while also hopefully getting stronger that's the goal. I will give it a shot. You got it. I, if I have a weakness, it's probably my weekends.

Starting point is 01:18:49 Um, I don't go off the rails on the weekends. I don't think I eat enough on the weekend. That's, you know, Monday through Friday, I'm structured really well. I bring my food to work. I've got everything I need. Saturday, Sunday. Sometimes I get two meals in maybe three. Start the day off with an early high protein breakfast.

Starting point is 01:19:06 And Brian, don't, okay, this needs to be, I'm glad you brought that up because this is huge. And you've probably heard me talk about this on the show. Like I have a saying, win the weekend, right? Like winning the weekends would set the tone for my entire week because I, just like you, I was dialed during the week. I'm on my schedule. So I, meals are ready. I hate everything that's listening, but on Saturday and Sunday, and just like you,

Starting point is 01:19:27 it wasn't like I would eat like an asshole, it's that I would miss meals. I would miss meals, I wouldn't hit my protein intake, and you can't do that. If you do that, it's gonna really count, it's really gonna cancel out a lot of the great work we're doing during the week. So the most important thing is to hit that protein intake

Starting point is 01:19:43 on Saturday and Sunday. And like Sal said, make that first breakfast meal a big, a big protein meal because if there's anything that will slow down your progress of building muscle, speeding that metabolism up is going to be missing every Saturday and Sunday on protein. Okay, sounds good. I have a new goal. And you, since you have all the programs that you already need,

Starting point is 01:20:04 are you in our private forum yet? No, I'm not. I'm gonna have Doug give you access to that. And then if you just check in with us, okay, every few weeks or every, at least once a month, letting us kind of know what you're seeing, what you're noticing, how you feel, we can kind of give you guidance along the way of, oh, add more of this, cut this. So we'll guide you along the way if you update and you let us know how you're doing. Okay. Will do. So we'll guide you along the way if you update and you let us know how you're doing. Okay, will do, appreciate it.

Starting point is 01:20:27 Aw, thank you, Brian. All right, Brian. Excited for you. Good job, Brian. P90X is one of the highest selling digital workout programs of all time. It also is simultaneously the worst programming. The worst. Yeah. It is terrible.

Starting point is 01:20:44 I remember I had a client when it first came out. My dad was over trained with that. And I was like, oh, they're just trying to beat you up. He's like trying metrics on everything else. Yeah, they're just trying to beat you up by stringing a bunch of stuff together. And unfortunately people believe that the harder a workout is and the more they feel like

Starting point is 01:21:00 throwing up, the better it is. So it just confirmed their bias that this is a good workout. Where the whole muscle confusion. Yeah, and then I guarantee a huge cohort of people did the same thing that he did. And so they feel like the reason why it didn't work was because they didn't finish it. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:21:14 Or they did lose weight, but then they stopped because it over-trained them or whatever, and they gained the weight back. And it's my fault. I'm not good enough. Yeah. No, that's not the issue. But I tell you what, I hope Brian listens to this.

Starting point is 01:21:24 I hope Brian follows through on this, because the advice we gave, if he wasn't doing squats, he was able to already reverse diet as well as he did. He follows MAPS 15, and he starts squatting, and he does not miss his protein intake. He'll gain eight to 10 pounds of muscle. It'll radically change his physique, I guarantee it. Our next caller is Michelle from Missouri.

Starting point is 01:21:45 Hi Michelle. Hello. How can we help you? Hi guys. How you doing? Good, how are you? Very good. We're good.

Starting point is 01:21:52 Good. Okay, so my question is, I'm turning 50 this year and I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little freaked out. I've never cared about age, but the big five-oh, there's just something about it. And I told my girlfriends, I have a year to get my shit together. So I've always been consistent with cardio, but not so much on weights. So of all your programs, which ones would you recommend for someone who wants to

Starting point is 01:22:20 be consistent, but is terrified of injuring themselves? I love you. Oh, 40 questions. I love you. I, you know, okay. So what's your experience with strength training? Have you, do you do any of it consistently or is it very, very minimal? It's very minimal.

Starting point is 01:22:34 And here's why. So I hired a trainer about 20 years ago and it's everything you guys always talk about how trainers, yeah. I'm sorry. And so I actually injured myself and since then I have just kind of done my own thing, but not very much to be honest. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:22:51 Sorry about that. So, okay. Uh, Matt, uh, starter, starter would be perfect for you. Absolutely perfect. All you need are dumbbells and a physio ball. Um, or you can go to the gym. They'll probably, they'll definitely have dumbbells and a physio ball, but it's the perfect program to start with.

Starting point is 01:23:07 And Michelle, when you do it, really focus on technique and control. Technique and control. Nice slow cadence. And remember that the feel that you're looking for from strength training is very different than the feel that you're used to from cardio. You're not looking for like this exhaustion.

Starting point is 01:23:24 You're looking for for like this exhaustion. You're looking for some exertion during the set and then you rest and then you rest fully for like two minutes, three minutes, and then you do the next set. It is a completely different feeling. You should feel very invigorated and energized at the end and a little bit of soreness the next day is okay,

Starting point is 01:23:42 but if you get really sore the next day, then you probably pushed it too hard. You've probably heard us say many times is about when you get into the workout, approach it like practice. And when I have a client that I'm really introducing strength training to like yourself, the thing that I would tell you is,

Starting point is 01:23:59 I want you to be obsessed about the movement. And I want you to use the models in the video and I don't care about the weight, I don't care about your heart rate, I don't care about sweat. What I want you to do is when you watch that model do the exercise you want to be able to mirror it perfectly and become obsessed with that like trying to make it look exactly how she is doing it in the video because your technique and form is far more important than heart rate and calories and all the things that you tend to kind of focus on when

Starting point is 01:24:29 we're doing cardio type stuff. Totally opposite intent going into it. That is going to serve you the most is get good at perfecting the movement. That's it and Michelle you're saying so what do you mean specifically when you say get your shit together? What are you looking like what do you want out of this? Because I would also like to look into what you're doing for cardio and sleep, because there's a whole picture here, not just the strength drive that I wanna.

Starting point is 01:24:51 Lifestyle, yeah. Yeah, so what do you mean by that? What do you mean by get my shit together? All of that. So I listen to you guys and I hear you say that about the whole package, you know? And as someone that has narcolepsy, the sleep part has always been very, very important to me.

Starting point is 01:25:10 So I feel like that I have actually consistently nailed down. Great. And as far as the eating, I'm a recovering vegan. And I say recovering, I was a vegan for about 10 years and that's actually another question I had. So I recently reintroduced after listening to you guys, chicken back into my diet, but red meat still makes me very nauseous.

Starting point is 01:25:39 That's fine. That's fine. No worries. Can you do eggs? Fish? Yes, I can do eggs and fish, but I'm still struggling to get 125 grams of protein each day. How much protein can you get from food? What are you hitting? I'm probably getting about 80 to 90. Okay. So from food with no shakes? That's just from food?

Starting point is 01:25:59 No, that's with a shake. That's with a shake? And how many grams of protein is your shake? That's with a shake. That's with a shake? Yeah. And how many grams of protein is your shake? 20. 20 grams? Oh. Is it whey protein or is it?

Starting point is 01:26:08 Yeah, add another shake. Add another shake or two, you're fine. And if you can get it from whole food, that would be the best. But if you can't, and I've worked with a lot of vegans and then people who went from vegan to omnivore, so I totally get it. It's like your palate has to change and there's a repulsion that kind of happens, especially in those early days. I love eggs. That's going to be your best source of protein. Chicken's great. Eggs, fish and chicken is going to be great.

Starting point is 01:26:35 Fish is great. Ground turkey, if you'll have turkey and things like that. I don't know if you'll have that. That's also a great choice. Supplementing with creatine is going to be very beneficial for someone like you. Oh, creatine is going to be very beneficial for someone like you. You'll probably notice cognitive benefits, energy benefits. It's a very, very good longevity supplement, but you're also going to notice strength from it. You're going to get stronger from it. But longevity wise, it's amazing.

Starting point is 01:26:58 And the people that benefit the most from creatine are people who have the least amount of animal protein or animal sources of food in their diet because that's typically where you get it from. Otherwise your body has to synthesize protein from amino acids and it just doesn't get enough creatine in that way. So you tend to see cognitive improvements even. If I can give two pieces of advice that I think will make

Starting point is 01:27:19 the most important difference in this journey for you, it's the giving you the tip about treating every exercise like practice and caring more about the form and technique. And then the second one is making it like your job to hit protein every day. Because they work together and if you're working out and you're lifting weights, but then we are very inconsistent with the protein, then you're not going to reap all the benefits from the lifting the weights. But if you practice lifting weights and you hit that protein, you're going to reap all the benefits from the strength training. Yeah. So do the protein, creatine, what Adam said with the strength training. And then let's

Starting point is 01:27:57 talk about your cardio. What does your cardio look like? Cause you said you're doing that and you're consistent. What does that look like? Yeah. So every day I walk about two miles and that's either just outside or on the treadmill. Oh, I love that. Keep it. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah, that's perfectly fine. Yeah. You're going to, you're going to really love how your body responds.

Starting point is 01:28:18 If you're consistent with this, it is going to be transformative for you, Michelle. You're you rep, I had a lot of clients just like you were in the same kind of like, uh, age group and in our generation, especially women were, they were discouraged from strength training. They were discouraged even for meeting animal sources of protein and fat and all that stuff. So just doing those things, you're going to, you're going to notice like some really nice changes to your body and it's not going to feel like you're forcing yourself.

Starting point is 01:28:46 It should feel like, wow, I feel good. Like, wow, my body's responding. I feel great. I don't chase the intensity like you're trying to beat yourself up. That'll steer you in the wrong direction. Just start the program. Practice the techniques. You can make it challenging, but the technique comes first.

Starting point is 01:29:02 Make sure the skill is good and challenge yourself a little bit and you'll get stronger you're gonna get stronger week over week especially because you're just getting started hit the protein go ahead and add another shake if you can't get it from food add another two or three shake you can even add another two shakes if they're only 20 grams take the creatine you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna blow yourself away quick question the creatine is new to me. So is that powder? Is that? You can take it in powder form. Legion just came out with gummies. Yeah, or you can do in gummy form. Well, that's it. You have, yeah, so real easy, real easy to take, tastes good. I'm a fan. We like Legion because they're, we know that they're quality, but creatine monohydrate.

Starting point is 01:29:41 You don't want any other source. That's the one that's been studied over a thousand peer reviewed studies. There's all these other sources trying to tell you that there's different, you know, better. There aren't no better. It's create team on a hydrate is what you want. Well, thank you. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks guys.

Starting point is 01:29:57 I'm excited for you, Michelle. I would love for you to follow up with us in like 30 to 60 days after doing that. Are we sending you starter? Do you have that program? I do not have it. Okay. Let's send that to you.

Starting point is 01:30:08 And then can I put, I want to, I want to follow up. I want to follow up on you just to see this. Cause this kind of, this gets me really excited. Can we put you on our forum and then you just every 30 days or so checking with us, let us know how it's going. I would love to. Yeah. Awesome.

Starting point is 01:30:23 All right. All right. Happy birthday. Yeah. All right. Thank you. You got to. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Happy birthday. All right. Thank you. You got it.

Starting point is 01:30:28 Thanks. Man, I hope she falls through. Listen, those are the kind of clients. You radically change. Oh yeah, she would hire me and I would get so excited. It's like she's about to like, everything's gonna blow her mind. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:30:41 It's gonna blow her mind. Especially if you had a bad experience, you know. That makes me so upset. I know. This is why. I mean, that happened to a lot of people. I know and I know I did that early on. I know I did that to some clients early on where I gave them a bad experience and it makes me really upset because then they don't go back. She is, I know that she has this like I gave my shit together but the cool part about this is she is prim prime to see amazing results. An ex-vegan, so probably grossly under-eating protein forever like that, not getting her body what she needs nutritionally. So switching out of that already super positive, never really done strength

Starting point is 01:31:14 training. 20 years ago, had a bad experience and then ran away from it since then. Just a little bit of strength training paired with hitting protein and she is going to completely shift the way she looks and feels. And I'll tell you what, I've had vegans go on creatine. Everybody gets, most people get great you know results from creatine. Vegans, it's mind-blowing. It is. They notice a huge difference and there's studies that show IQ boost from it. It's a major boost yeah. Our next caller is Dana from Canada. Hi Dana. Hello. What's happening? is Dana from Canada. Hi Dana. Hello. What's happening? Hi there. I just wanted to start off by saying how much I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today. I've been listening

Starting point is 01:31:53 for about two years and after quoting you guys non-stop, my husband just decided to listen to the podcast instead. So now every week I get a new package on my doorstep from one of your partners that he just has to try. He's like, who are these guys she's talking about? That's awesome. Okay. So do you want me to free email? Yes, please. Let's hear it. Okay. I'm a 31 year old mom of two. I'm five, six and 127

Starting point is 01:32:20 pounds. I've been lifting weights for about 10 years, but with actual good programming for about two years. I've been lifting weights for about 10 years, but with actual good programming for about two years. I've run anabolic performance and aesthetic, and I'm currently on phase two of power lift. I get between 12 to 15,000 steps daily, and I also do two five-minute sessions of mobility. My sleep is good, eight to nine hours, and I consistently take creatine. My calories are 2,800 at maintenance maintenance and I've been tracking for years. I always hit my protein goal of 150 grams and like quite easily and my weight is stable.

Starting point is 01:32:54 I'm getting a little stronger in the gym, mostly eating whole foods and maybe one protein shake a week and I don't know my body fat percentage. My questions are why am I still hungry? Do I need to bump my calories even more? And my second question is I constantly hear a lot of women maintaining around 2,000 calories. Why am I so much higher? And I'm not complaining at all. Yeah, because you're healthier. After we're reading everything I'm like what is she gonna ask us? Yeah, yeah, it's because you're very healthy. You got a very healthy metabolism

Starting point is 01:33:26 and you're probably realizing that when you hit the weight sometimes the body's saying, you could handle more calories. Yeah, you're fit as hell too. You sent a picture in, you're very fit, you got good muscle. You're hungry because your body wants to build more muscle. So your body's like, hey, give us a little more food. Go ahead, eat more, make it whole natural foods,

Starting point is 01:33:44 protein-centric again, and you're just gonna get stronger, you're gonna get even stronger. Yeah, you're doing great. What are your calories at again? 2800, bro. Yeah, wow. Yeah, you're fine. That's incredible, you're in a great place.

Starting point is 01:33:56 No, there's nothing at all wrong with that. I mean, where you are at is where we wanna take most clients, when someone hires us and they're at, like you said, because it is very common that your female client comes in and says, oh, I only eat about 1800, 2000 calories and I want to lose a bunch of body fat and we got to reverse diet them

Starting point is 01:34:13 and get them up somewhere healthy metabolically, you're there. I mean, you're at an incredible place right now. And what you feel is exactly what Sal's saying, is you're probably training very well. And when you stimulate it, the body's going, Ooh, we can handle more calories. I want to build more muscle. So if you want to build more muscle and would like to get stronger,

Starting point is 01:34:31 that would be the answer. If you're happy where you're at, then you know, it's not, it's not uncommon to have times where you're a little bit lower than your maintenance and you're feeling hungry. How recent was it? The picture that you sent us? Um, that was June. Okay, so are you around the same from that?

Starting point is 01:34:48 Yeah, that's right. And I was eating about 2,500 in that picture. I went to 2,800 in July and I didn't gain any weight. And I did it gradually, about 100 calories until I got to 2800 and I didn't gain any weight and I actually think I look cleaner. Yeah, you're probably that picture looked like maybe Doug, pull that up again. You look like you're in the, in the teens.

Starting point is 01:35:12 More, more, yeah, you look like you're in the teens, maybe 17%. Uh, if you're, if your sleep is good, libido is good. If you have a regular menstrual cycle, I mean, you're just, yeah, here's what I would advise someone like you. I would advise someone like you if you're hungry just eat whole natural foods. You're not gonna go wrong. Let me ask this. How are you, how is your relationship with food? Are you, do you feel like you're very obsessive with making sure you eat perfect? Do you allow yourself some flexibility to eat out of bounds or does that freak you out? Like how, tell me a little bit about that. making sure you eat perfect? Do you allow yourself some flexibility to eat out of bounds?

Starting point is 01:35:45 Or does that freak you out? Like, tell me a little bit about that. So I will say we go out to eat probably once a week and I will track the whole day and then I'll just leave like a thousand calories and I usually pick the cleanest thing on the menu. So I wouldn't say that I eat a lot of junk ever. And I'm hesitant towards it. I prefer whole foods.

Starting point is 01:36:14 So I would say that I don't like junk. Well, that's what actually my husband would say and I just prefer whole foods. I was gonna say if you're not stressed out about it, you're fine. That's all I was looking for. I was looking because sometimes I'll get a foods. I was just gonna say, if you're not stressed out about it, you're fine. That's all I was looking for. I was looking, because sometimes I'll get a client, they're obsessive about the food they're eating, and it stresses them out if they eat out of bounds, and so that would be my only thing,

Starting point is 01:36:35 is maybe peering into that, but it sounds like you have a really good relationship with food, it sounds like you prefer whole foods. If you were my client, I would just say, oh, you're hungry, eat more. Eat another whole food meal, and you'll be totally fine. I will say I do use a food scale every day, and I do track it.

Starting point is 01:36:56 So it might be a good exercise for you to not for a little while. Yeah, try a couple days where you don't track. You're in such a healthy place metabolically that I think as long as you know that you're getting protein centric meals, strain training, you probably are going to maintain just fine and not have to do all that. So maybe that's the only exercise. If you're my client, we're trained, we've been together

Starting point is 01:37:14 for a long time and you look like you look and you feel the way you feel. I'd say, Hey, let's go for a couple of weeks and not, not weigh and measure anything. Let's just see. And if you want to, I mean, how are you on vacation? Do you, do you stress out or you just enjoy yourself? Uh, I just eat healthy way more, of course, as we all do. Um, I drink, I eat. You're fine. Not really. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:37:37 You're totally fine. You're killing it. You're crushing it. If you're hungry, eat more. You're going to be totally, you'll just get stronger. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. I'm sorry. I wish I could give you something different to do, but you're doing great.

Starting point is 01:37:48 No, no. I think it'd be good exercise to go for some time without tracking. That's about the only piece of advice I'd have. We're nitpicking. Yeah. And that literally is not cause you have to, it's just, I think it's a good exercise. I think it's good for us, especially if you know that you've been very consistent with tracking and measuring for a long time. I think it's a good exercise to move away from that a little bit and just see how you feel and try and listen to your body and see if you can still maintain

Starting point is 01:38:11 that same feeling and healthiness. I think that's a good exercise for you to do so you don't have, I don't cause you're at a place right now where I don't think you even need to probably weigh measure and track as much as you are. You've been, you've obviously proven you've been able to maintain a very healthy fit, strong physique for, and be able to get away with eating, drinking, and having fun and enjoy yourself. So, you know, maybe pull back a little bit on the tracking and weighing and just kind of,

Starting point is 01:38:34 and see how you feel for a month. Hit some PRs on power lift. So far so good. Right on. Great. Yeah. You're killing it. Good job. Thank you so much. You got it. Well, I mean, I like, you know, every once in a while someone calling in like that because that is, I mean, that's possible. It's possible to get to that place and you live that way and, you know, she's tiny. She's eating almost 3,000 calories a day. Yeah. You know, strength training feels good, strong.

Starting point is 01:39:05 I mean, that's the place where you wanna be. And I think she's overthinking it with why am I still hungry? Eat, feed yourself. When you're like that, feed yourself and you'll just end up getting more strong. Yeah, yeah, the only thing I feel like I can peer into, because I mean, you're looking at the pinnacle

Starting point is 01:39:21 of what we wanna take most of our female clients to get to, right? I mean, she's tiny, 127 pounds. Think about that for a second. She's a mom of two and she's eating 2,800 calories with abs. With abs, okay? So that's so impressive. She's a little leaner, yeah, at that high of a calorie. The only thing that I would probably challenge her on is the, let's not track for a while. Because maybe she's-

Starting point is 01:39:43 That can be like a handcuff. Right. Maybe she's downplaying how obsessive she is about tracking and that's about the end again. Here. I am nitpicking I didn't this is not me critiquing at all. It's just trying to guess off of a five-minute phone call Of where I could help her in her journey Other than that the she's kind of dialed and this is a place that I want to get all of my clients to to where They can have that much metabolic flexibility, feel that good, look that good. Um, is in, and, and desire, sounds like she doesn't desire junk food. She desires healthy food. She chooses that because she likes it, not because she feels restricted,

Starting point is 01:40:17 punishing yourself. This is an incredible place to be. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at mind pump. Justin, I'm at mind pump tofano and Adams at mind pump Adam. Thank you for listening to mind pump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance check out our discounted RGB super bundle at mind pump media.com the RGB super bundle includes maps anabolic, maps performance, and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically

Starting point is 01:40:54 transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a 5-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindP 5-star rating and review on iTunes

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2469: Compound Before Isolation Lifts are the Best, Except When They're Not (Listener Live Coaching)

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