Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth - 2495: The Truth About Beachbody With Chalene Johnson

Episode Date: December 23, 2024

Chalene Johnson What is going on with Beachbody? (1:54) Why you MUST have more than one stream of income. (12:03) Biggest business learning lessons. (15:16) Changing the conversation around perimenopause/menopause. (20:29) Her relationship with traditional strength training. (31:13) The 5 pillars of health. (33:23) Breaking the fear of cutting cardio. (34:40) The power of changing your algorithm. (36:58) Use your intuition! (38:00) The major disservice of giving a sex assignment to hormones. (41:08) Why she quit alcohol. (45:25) Where does her growth mindset come from? (54:10) How does she communicate giving yourself grace? (55:50) Being in alignment. (58:10) Why she is focusing on her sleep. (59:23) Her favorite attributes about her husband. (1:02:45) Favorite revenue streams. (1:10:15) Creating boundaries. (1:11:40) A family of entrepreneurs. (1:13:27) Favorite podcast guests. (1:15:30) How muscle is an underrated bio hack. (1:16:44) Related Links/Products Mentioned Visit Transcend for an exclusive offer for Mind Pump listeners! ** Up to 35% off the following: Tesofensine / GLP-1 & IGF / Tesamorelin ** Limited Launch Promotion: MAPS 15 Performance public launch price: $87! ** Code 15PLAUNCH for $20 OFF. Free Bonuses: 30-Day Landmine Workout + 7-Day Overtraining Rescue Guide. ** Mind Pump #2052: Chalene Johnson: Female Fitness Mogul Mind Pump #2447: The Keys to Visceral Fat Loss & Muscle Gain With Dr. Tyna Moore Mind Pump #2430: How Women Can Slow Aging & Improve Hormone Balance With Dr. Stephanie Estima IS EXERCISE CORTISOL RESPONSE OF ENDURANCE ATHLETES SIMILAR TO LEVELS OF CUSHING'S SYNDROME? Mind Pump #1305: Five Steps to Intuitive Eating The New Menopause: Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose, Power, and Facts – Book by Mary Claire Haver, MD Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube Mind Pump Free Resources Featured Guest/People Mentioned Chalene Johnson (@chalenejohnson) Instagram Bret Johnson (@bretjohnson11) Instagram Dr. Tyna Moore (@drtyna) Instagram   Dr. Stephanie Estima (@dr.stephanie.estima) Instagram Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (@drgabriellelyon) Instagram Kelly Casperson, MD Urologist (@kellycaspersonmd) Instagram LAUREN FITZ, M.D. (@drlaurenfitz) Instagram Kristen Holmes (@kristen_holmes2126) Instagram Mary Claire Haver, MD (@drmaryclaire) Instagram  

Get ready for Las Vegas style action at Bet MGM, the king of online casinos! Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for when you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat, and Roulette. With our ever-growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games, and signature BetMGM service. There's no better way to bring the excitement and ambience of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today!

BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. BetMGM.com for Ts and Cs. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you please contact connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming

Ontario. This holiday season surprise everyone on your list with the best gifts tickets to see their favorite artists live. Choose from thousands of concerts and comedy shows including Mariah Carey, Mary J. Blige, Matt Matthews, Metallica, Thomas Rhett, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Sarah Silverman and so many more. Share a memory together or give a gift they'll never forget. Find the most exciting gift for every fan at LiveNation.com slash gifts. That's LiveNation.com slash gifts. If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews.

You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. You just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today we have the fitness icon, Shalene Johnson. She is a juggernaut in the space. We love her. And in today's episode, she talks about training with menopause, fitness for women, alcohol and its impacts on health.

We talk about building a fitness business, which she is an absolute genius at you're gonna Love this episode this episode is brought to you by one of our sponsors MP hormones calm if you're interested in finding out about hormone replacement therapy or working with peptides Like tesofensin or GLP ones popular GLP ones for fat loss and weight loss or the growth hormone boosting Peptides go to mp hormones calm. This is working with real doctors. It's none of that gray market stuff It's legit working with real pharmacies again. It's mp hormones calm Also, these are the final hours for the maps 15 performance launch workout just 15 minutes a day Get incredible results with this launch. you're getting a discounted price.

It's $20 off. Plus, you're getting two free bonuses. You're getting a free 30-day landmine workout program. So this is a full 30-day program in addition to Mass 15 Performance. And you're getting the seven-day overtraining rescue guide. This will get you back from the grips of overtraining in just seven days and get you ready for Sturtard training again.

Those are both included for free. Here's what you do if you're catching this in time. Go to 15performance.com, use the code 15PLAUNCH. That gets you the $20 off plus the free bonuses. All right, here comes the show. Welcome back to the show. I'm so excited. Yeah, we had fun with you the show. I'm so excited.

We had fun with you last time. We did. So we have you back on and you sent us a few things that you thought would be cool to talk about. One of them I want to get to right away. Okay. Something's going on with Beachbody. They're ending their MLM model,

which was massive for them. This is a big deal. Like, okay, what is going on? Yeah, so when I first started with Beachbody, they were a, an infomercial company. They sold fitness on TV, you know, so that's how I partnered with them. And I don't know, several years into working with them, they transitioned that model into a network marketing model, kind of like Herbalife, you know, Amway,

and they started having distributors, people who are network marketing model, kind of like Herbalife, you know, Amway. And they started having distributors, people who were doing the workouts. This is like in 2006, 7, 8 maybe, maybe even 2009. So anyone who was doing the workouts, if they recommended them to their friends, they got a percentage or a cut, you know, just like a network marketing organization. Then eventually that became a billion dollar business for them. And people who were selling it were called distributors, you know, they actually called them coaches, which was interesting because, you know, they were kind of positioning themselves as coaching fitness and nutrition, but you

didn't have to have any credentials or knowledge other than being... You took the class. Yeah, exactly. You're someone who used the products or watched the workouts and you could become a coach. Wow. I believe it was the... I remember looking this up and you have better knowledge of this, because it was... The business was valued at like $4 billion and at least $2 billion of it was coming from the MLM side.

Is that correct? A big piece of it was the Shakeology. Eventually, almost all of it came from the network marketing because infomercials, that business model kind of dried up. I was the last infomercial that they did that was viable. And so this utilized social media, used fitness influencers, and they were able to sell the products, the workouts.

I wouldn't even say fitness influencers so much. Eventually people became kind of influencers because they were using social media to market the workouts and all of the supplements, you know, the shakes, the pre-workouts, post-workouts. But that model started to decline because as you know, fitness is available. When my program was originally sold,

it was like, I don't it was like $150 or something. P90X, I think, was like $300. And now, fitness is every single person who's got a decent body, is a fitness influencer, right? And so they're selling on YouTube. They're not even selling, they're making it available for free everywhere. So that plus all of the other streaming platforms really cut into their profits. And then eventually, all of the supplements too became readily available. There were more companies making those things.

Was it a slow decline or was it like a cliff for them? Do you know? I mean, I have personal opinions on it. I do. I want to hear those. I want to hear the final. That's what I want to hear. That's why I'm personal opinions on it. I do. I want to hear those. I want to hear the final answer. That's what I want to hear.

That's why I'm not talking. You're just asking her. Yeah. You know, I've always, I stepped back away from Beachbody many years ago. I did it quietly because I had a lot of friends who were in the network marketing side of things. Our former company, we sold to Beachbody.

So you know, it was, I just kind of had to keep my mouth shut and not say much, but I could just see that they were jumping on trends when they were almost already over. And creating what I felt like they're trying to create dupes of things rather than to innovate. Like when we originally came out with Turbo Jam and P90X and Insanity. Those were super innovative.

People hadn't seen that on TV. And it's hard for people to remember this, but you couldn't get fitness workouts like that because there weren't streaming platforms. You either had to go to a gym, which most people didn't have access to an instructor like that. You couldn't get it on even VHS. So this was really a revolutionary idea with these incredible workouts and if I do say so myself, great instructors, very innovative and they had to pay us a lot because we sold

a lot. And I think the executive team there was always like, how can we find someone to do the same thing who we won't have to pay them as much? You know what I mean? Like always trying to find that dupe. And there's a million people who want to be fitness famous. So they could find a lot of people who were willing to make a lot less money. And so they started kind of watering down the programs, I think, that was one big mistake. And then I think just jumping on trends too,

like jumping on streaming too late, jumping on the bikes too late, jumping on live workout classes too late. You know? And so now are there a lot of people who are gonna be hurt by this change, who made a living doing this? By sending one email, the company made a $58 million increase in revenue just by cutting what was the percentage

going to their distributors or coaches. So they changed from a network marketing model to a affiliate model, which a lot of companies have been doing in the network marketing space, because they're like, wait a second, everybody can be an affiliate and we don't have to pay that person plus the person they signed up, plus the person they signed up,

plus the person they signed up. You just pay that one person. Just a flat affiliate for everybody. Yeah. Wow. Wow, and so that's how it's gonna be now from now on. Yeah, and that means some people will, not a lot, but there's a small percentage of coaches who were there from the beginning, you know, bandwidth company for 17 years, uh, building this thinking it was their business, making a lot of money. We're talking seven figures and that essentially gone, gone.

Cut right out. Wow. There's, is there, is there that many people that could make seven figures selling a Beachbody program, the Shakeology's with that, really that much? That's a lot. There's not a lot. It's a small percentage.

Okay. It's a small percentage, but I mean, off the top of my head, I know personally like 10 people. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. Yeah. I mean, that's impressive to do, period, but be selling somebody else's, to make seven figures doing that is incredible. Yeah. I mean, there's impressive to do, period, but be selling somebody else's to make seven figures doing that is incredible.

Yeah. I mean, there were distributors who were making more than the people who were making the videos, you know, making the workout videos. And so it's interesting because it created a lot of, well, there's so many rumors that like network marketing is like cult, you know, it's like a system where you can't speak out, you have to toe the line, when you know that there are problems, you're not allowed to talk about it, when you know that things need to happen,

you're not allowed to say it. And so there's been this kind of collective sigh, now we can finally say all of the things that we hated about it. It's like, well. What are they saying, what do you mean? Well, I think probably, so I started, because I kept my mouth shut, out of respect

for other people's means by which they're creating a living, once this happened and I saw all these people with a rug pulled out from underneath them, I'm like, you know, masking tape is off. I'm gonna talk about what I experienced. And, you know, masking tape is off. I'm going to talk about what I experienced. And, you know, as I shared on the last time I was here on the show, it was a really unhealthy environment for me. I don't think they were concerned with health.

I think it was a lot of lip service. I think there were a lot of really, really unhealthy practices. So think about it. You need to sell a fitness program, and you're a distributor. What sells more than anything? Before and after photos.

And they're conditioned to be a product of the product. So you constantly have to be in the state of like, okay, I just got these amazing results from this program. So you're either constantly going to the next level or you're gaining it back and then losing it again for these programs. So nothing sells the way before and afters do. And so they're all really conditioned

to create these before and after results. And it just took a real, and these are mainly women. These are mainly women. So a lot of eating disorders, a lot of very disordered body dysmorphia. There's a long common with this side of the fitness industry and the modeling industry. There really is with just kind of that dysfunction.

You know what's funny is that we don't do before and afters to sell our programs precisely because of what you're saying. Yeah, and our marketing team hates us for it too. I bet. Because we know we lose out on it. Absolutely. Because we were trainers for so long and we worked with people, it's like,

we can't do before and afters. We know what it promotes, we know what it encourages, and it does promote this kind of body-centric, this is what fitness is all about, and it sells. Like, don't get me wrong, you're trying to sell a program, that's the easiest, fastest way to sell a lot of programs to show a great before and after, but we just couldn't do it, so we made an agreement

that we would never do it. Because how do you depict in a picture more energy, better, you know, better everything in terms of metrics of your health. How do you depict more confidence? How do you depict longevity? You know, it's just, it's a physique. And so so many of these people, you know,

are really like stepping back and realizing like, I've just done this for the last 15 years. Like the gaining and losing and gaining and losing. And, you know, so I started like kind of telling my story and my side of things, you know, like the experiences I had on my Patreon. And it's been very cathartic for like a lot of these coaches.

They're like, I knew, or I thought this was happening, and I always felt like something was off. And so I think it's been very therapeutic for me. And I think it's been very therapeutic for a lot of them to realize, okay, this is disordered. It's really disordered. And it's difficult when the way that you make money is with your body.

You know? Yes. You know, one thing that we respect so much about you is just how you understand the business side of these things. I think one of the lessons, and I'd love your opinion on this, is the illusion that your business is yours

when it's like based on a social media platform or it's based on like Beachbody. Like I knew people, I know people who were very successful and it was all because of Facebook. Facebook changes their algorithm and they went from making lots of money to nothing overnight and you see that with a lot of people. They build their entire business

off of like a social media platform and they're Like this is my business. It's not your business. It absolutely isn't And that was one of the kind of conflicts I had When I was partner when we sold our company eventually to beach by our certification programs And so we you know, we still had contractual obligations with them. I Still had to represent in some regards, but we were also doing our own thing. And one of the things I was vehemently promoting with anyone who would listen is you have got to have more than one stream of income.

It's the riskiest thing you can do is just rely on one thing. And so you start getting golden handcuffs. You know, people are like, this is, I'm focusing all my attention on this, and they're calling it their business. But if someone can send an email and change your income, it ain't your business. And so we were teaching, Brett and I were teaching people how to create their own business,

how to create an email list, how to diversify their income, how to create multiple streams of income that are related. So you're still things you're passionate about. But what's so ironic is I got in a big argument one of the days with the CEO of Beachbody because he was really unhappy that we were giving anyone who would promote our marketing workshop an affiliate fee or giving them 50% of the registration.

You know, because if you're going to send someone to my seminar, I'll give you an affiliate fee." And he felt like that was very distracting to them. It was, you know, so we had a big argument about it and said they are basically, they were told they could not promote the workshop. I'm like, but then are they employees or are they really consultants? Are they really independent if you're telling them what they can and can't promote?

So it's just very ironic that now he's switched to an affiliate model. He's changed it after he told you not to. Yeah, yeah. What demographic do you find yourself speaking most to when you're doing this? When I'm speaking to people about diversifying, anyone who will listen.

I don't care whether you've got a very comfortable job and you're thinking about staying another five years and then retiring. I don't care if you've got a very successful business. I mean, COVID taught us that even the most successful business, something can happen and you go to zero. Anyone who will listen, I just think it's fun, it's available to everybody, it's important, and it's something that has really changed

in the last 15 years. It didn't used to be as easy to create multiple streams of income. So I'll talk to anyone who will listen to it, but my audience tends to be primarily females. You and Brett have done such a great job of building so many businesses and so successful. I love to hear and learn from people and their mistakes.

When you look back at your guys' journey, what have been some of the biggest, that was a blunder or that was a bad turn? When you think of all the business decisions and pivots that you guys have made, what comes to mind when you think of the ones that were like the big learning lessons that you had? I would say the through line in every mistake that we've made is trying to soften the message of something so that it would appeal to more people versus like doubling down and saying,

no, it's just for these people. With conviction. Yeah, so I would say it was, you know, it's really niching down to the point where it's uncomfortable is probably the biggest mistake that we've made. Anytime that a business has taken a lot longer to take off, a lot longer to identify the marketing, the avatar, and just to get it right,

it's because I was like, well, I don't want to alienate this group or that group, you know, and the more I double down, the more successful our business is. You know what's interesting on that, I watched this, I don't remember what it was, it was a conversation on a podcast I think it was, and they were talking about how the old marketing strategies don't work necessarily, some of them do,

but some don't't for the new environment because in the past you had limited bandwidth. So you had like a few channels, you had a few radio stations. You're trying to cast a wide net. Whereas now there's like an infinite number of potential channels, an infinite number of potential people. So you're better off being very focused on this group

of people rather than just trying to be like the late show host that talks to everybody. It's like, no, no, I'm talking to this group right here and here's what you need type of deal. And that in the past was murder because you would alienate half your audience, but now you'll get a larger audience. We found that with programs that we create.

It's like, you know, we create a program just for women. It did the best that we've ever done. And we cut out half of our audience. I think it's brilliant the program you guys have done for people who are on GLP Ones and learning to not lose muscle. Now, do you watch TikToks? Or TikTok Instagram?

Instagram, yeah. Well, I mean, anytime you open up your phone, especially with TikTok, because their algorithm is so dialed in, you're like, how do they know that I wanna see this? Like I haven't talked, this is in my head. I haven't even talked about this. You know, and it shows up on your phone.

And so because of that, the algorithms of all social media platforms are trying to deliver us exactly what will hold our attention. And so if something is a little. If it's too general, then it won't go anywhere, right? A thousand percent. Oh wow. Can you give an example of like where that,

where you guys noticed that and then you changed? Like was it the communication on the podcast? Or was it the way you were marketing and emailing? Like what did that look like? You guys were speaking a point, you said it like this, and then it changed, okay, this is how we need to communicate that. What did that look like?

Well for sure YouTube, that's happened for me a lot on YouTube. I'll get back to that. But in terms of business, so we created this program called the 131 Method. And it was for anyone who wants to figure out what's the right nutritional approach for them to understand like true health from the inside out. But I wasn't, I was reluctant to speak to one specific demographic, a very small sliver of the population. And I lost interest in it. And that business suffered because of it.

Because I just was like, it's hard to get passionate about something when you're talking to a big group. Whereas when you're talking to like a big group. Yeah. Whereas when you're like talking to your people, the people will like geek out on the same things and they lean forward and they know exactly all the nuanced and the, you know, weird little experiences you've had. You just get so pumped up and excited for that. You have an energy for it and this enthusiasm for something that's so specific.

And when you, when we weren't doing that with our business, I just didn't have the passion for it. And we kind of let that simmer. We put it on the back burner, we talked about selling that business. It was moderately successful. I mean, it lost us money for a while. And then eventually we got it to a point where it was like breaking even.

Then we're making a little bit of money, but I'm still like, I'm not interested in this the way I should be. And as I started realizing like, what, is it I want to help this with? And really started like narrowing that down, that focus and not worrying about helping everyone, now the business has taken off again and we've changed the name of it, changed the marketing of it, like everything is so that I'm speaking just to that woman, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And that like sets me on fire, like now I can't stop talking about it. Whereas before I'd be like, oh yeah, we've got this thing, you know what I mean? I didn't even like the name of it. You know, I didn't like any part of it. And then with YouTube, I was trying to again, just get a viral hit, just get a video that like really takes off. So I was trying all, again, just get a viral hit, just get a video that really takes off. So I was trying all these different topics

and when I realized who it was I wanted to speak to and spoke directly to them, it's usually yourself. I was just gonna ask you, who do you find yourself speaking the most to when you do stuff like that? Someone who's just a few years behind me, you know what I mean, whether it's a few years behind me in business or life, so that I can say like, I've been there, let me help you. Accelerate that.

Exactly, let me help guide you so you can avoid some of those missteps. For me right now, it's knowing what I know, having transitioned into menopause and wanting to help that woman, also help the woman who is maybe a few years older than me but doesn't realize that there's still a lot of things she can do, you know, and, and really I'm very, very passionate about hitting that woman

who's has her fingers in her ears and doesn't want to hear anything about perimenopause or menopause because she's like, I'm, I'm way too young to be talking about that. You know what I mean? But like we need to talk about that now so that. You're not hitting the. Yeah, so that you have a very, a much different experience than your mother's menopause. The narrative around menopause has changed, or the attitude around it.

I think for a long time, and I'd love your input on this, for a long time it was kind of like you just, well, this is just what happens and you deal with it and it sucks and whatever and don't complain and now I'm hearing more and more women saying no no there's there's a lot of things you can do yeah and there are ways you can make this a lot easier you know things from hormone therapy to how you approach exercise to just admitting or acknowledging the changes that happen I used to have female clients that would

go to the doctor and would say things like I don't know what what's happening, like I'd never gained body fat in my belly before and the doctor's like, oh, you're just eating too much, it's in your head. They're like, no, you don't understand, like I know my body. It seems like the conversation around it has changed. Am I hitting the nail on the head here? It's a little skewed, your experience, because you've had some great guests on. I mean, you guys have done such an awesome job of've had some great guests on. Yeah. I mean, you guys have done such an awesome job of bringing on some fantastic guests to talk about this.

Right, like I watched your interview with Dr. Tina Moore and Stephanie and Dr. Lyon. I mean, you guys have had some great guests on talking about these things, but generally speaking. Not the case. Not the case at all. Yeah, you're right. Like, it's great, even in my audience,

like when I do one of those ask me anything, it's just like, I'm just shocked how little knowledge there is. And it's being suppressed. I did a post a week ago talking about vaginal estrogen cream, and I've since been shadow banned on Instagram. Really?

Yeah, I got a notification that. Why? Because it violates community guidelines. Yes. Yeah. So any talk about women's hormones, not any, but just, you certainly can't say vaginal, you can't say anything about sexual health,

libido, any of these, so any of these conversations, they're really quite suppressed, and certainly because less than 3% of even OB-GYNs have any substantial training on women's hormonal health. Not to mention your general practitioners, they just- They don't know. And it's not their fault. It starts with medical schools. They get less than eight hours of training on 50% of the population who's going to spend 50% of their life in this stage. So it is a conversation that needs to happen

and right now I think there's just a lot of phenomenal female primarily, doctors and some dudes out there too who are helping spread the word with social media but it ain't happening on Instagram. I find it interesting, I was actually having this conversation with my wife because I know how bad they are with men's hormones, and men's hormones are straightforward and basic in comparison to understanding women's hormones.

Like a woman's hormones before menopause has cycles and changes, and yet they're supposed to go to the doctor, get a test once, and be like, here's your snapshot. Like snapshot when? At what point in your cycle? And this is what it looks like here and there, and there's lots of different ways that they affect you

and how they communicate with each other. And then insulin is related as well. Whereas with the man, they're like testosterone, estrogen, DHT, pre-test, and you're okay. We were having this conversation, he's like, it's so complicated, and they're not talking about this, they're not discussing it.

Luckily we have access to some brilliant people because of the podcast, but you're right, you just, it's true, generally speaking, like nobody talks about this at all or even understands it. Where do you find your conversations going with this? What are the things that women need to know the most around this? Well, what's interesting is when it's the worst

is perimenopause. So that's at 10 years before you hit menopause. Why is that the worst? Because it's the transition and it's just- Because your hormones are wildly out of control. You just don't know what the hell's going on. Because they are in decline and it's not a steady, smooth decline.

It's like this, right? So what's wild is we shouldn't really, I mean, we should be talking about menopause, but the real conversation needs to be in perimenopause. So it's that woman who's like 38 to 51, she needs to know because that's when things are out of control. I mean, they're so unpredictable.

And if she can, studies show, we've got like really great data now to show that the younger, the earlier a woman starts on hormone replacement therapy, the more balanced her transition is into menopause. The irony is, we've created such a negative reputation for menopause, then nobody wants to hear perimenopause. I mean, when I was 45 years old and I'm 55 now, a doctor recommended that I start on some hormone replacement therapy.

I think you're perimenopausal. And I was like, offensive? Like, what? La la la, like, why, excuse me, that's for old people. We're not, have you looked at, like, no, I did not want to hear it. Because menopause has such a negative connotation. It's, you're old, you're dried up,

you're now, your hair is gray, and you're invisible, and you need to wear navy blue, and a long skirt, and you're a grandma. Like, you're certainly not sexual, you're certainly not energetic, you don't put on, but all of that is fault. It doesn't have to be true, I shouldn't say it's false. It doesn't have to be true. Right, if you believe it to be true, it can be true.

Absolutely, and if you don't have the right information, if you don't make the lifestyle choices, number one, right? HRT is great, but if you're not making the lifestyle choices, it's futile. Yeah, we've learned about that too. Basically throwing hormones on a fire, if you're just unhealthy, it's just gonna make things not better.

I'm the perfect example of that. I was doing HRT because that's what she was suggesting, but I was also doing all the things that I'd always done, which means- Hammering your body. Hammering my body, like doing endurance, intense cardio, kickboxing for two hours, then I'm body, like doing endurance, intense cardio, kickboxing for two hours, then I'm going to go for a run for 40 minutes and now I'm going to lift

weights because I know I should be lifting weights, but everything I was doing was, you know, catabolic and it was creating this insulin response in me that no matter what I was doing with my hormone replacement therapy, it wasn't going to overcome the increased cortisol and the insulin problems that I was having and the decrease in my testosterone, the increase in my stress. And I'm like, I just... And so you get to the stage, especially for perimenopausal women, where they start putting on...

It's like a midsection thickness. Yep, yep. And you just don't feel like yourself. And you don't want to talk about it because you're like, it must be me. I need to go harder and I need to eat less. So I'm going to train harder. I'm going to eat less.

Oh, I'm hearing about lifting weights. OK, I'll add that in there too. But I'm still going to keep doing my endurance cardio. And you just get really frustrated and think to yourself like, I'm just going to keep doubling down, but it doesn't work. So it's understanding why it's not working and why you have to change those things, which we've been conditioned in our heads to believe they, well, they did work before.

Yeah. Well, what they also, what they tend to do quite a bit, because your GP isn't, like you said, well versed on hormones. Neither is your OB. But your GP, well often, is well versed on SSRIs, and what they tend to do is take women who are going through perimenopause, who's like, I feel like I'm going crazy,

and they're like, here's an antidepressant. This will numb it down. Why don't you take this instead? When the issue was hormonal, it was not something that they needed necessarily an antidepressant. This will numb it down. And why don't you take this instead, when the issue was hormonal, it was not something that they needed necessarily an antidepressant for, but that's what they know. That's exactly what they do, they wanna numb it down. They want, you know, like gosh, you seem upset,

sounds like you're more moody, cause you are, like listen. Well yeah, you're hormonal to do that. When your pants are tight, your tight pants will make anybody moody, right? Like you're just in a bad, when your pants are tight, your tight pants will make anybody moody, right? Like you're just in a bad mood when your clothes are tight. You're gonna, women in particular, I don't know if guys are like this, but like.

This explains a lot about Justin now, I didn't know, I never connected that. I never connected that until this day. I'm wearing loose-suit pants. Yeah, you gotta get back your pants. You gotta get back your stretchy pants. Right? You gotta wear those Viori joggers.

That's a ticket. But you know, when you start feeling that way, you start not looking like yourself too. It's weird. You know, like I remember, I remember before I hit menopause, before I like kind of figured this out for myself, I was looking at pictures of myself. I'm like, why is my face so round? Like, my weight hasn't changed, why is my face getting so round? And I started looking it up and of course, Googling it, you know? And the first thing that came up was Cushing's disease. I'm like, I must have Cushing's

disease, right? And then, this is like 2019, 2020 maybe, I discovered a study where they had taken a look at endurance athletes, chronic, high-intensity endurance athletes, and looked at their hormone levels. And they almost mirrored people with Cushing's disease. So, a super elevated cortisol. And these are people like, semi-professional athletes, they're training that hard. But if you're working out for hours, and that's what you have the condition to do as a woman, you're not getting paid by your semi-pro, you know what I mean? You're putting the same kind of effort into it.

And you're doing it in a calorie deficit many times. That's right. Disaster-brating, all that. That's right. And there's just no way you can get around the fact that that's gonna decrease your testosterone levels, so it impacts your bone density. Like the worst thing a woman over 40 should be doing

is endurance cardio. Like you wanna destroy your hormones, run a marathon. Yeah, we've been, so tell me about your relationship with traditional. It feels so good to have you say that. I know, I love that. We better come with you. We get a lot of dirty looks when we say stuff like that.

It's the truth. So tell me about your relationship with traditional strength training and how it's evolved and where you're at now with it. So my love for strength training has always been there and I've always, for as long as I can remember, lifted five days a week heavy. But I wasn't ever getting results because I was destroying him with my cardio and under eating.

I was not consuming enough protein, was not consuming enough calories, was not consuming enough calories and it was wasted time. So I was never seeing the kind of results I couldn't put on muscle the way I wanted to because I thought, okay, I've got to get in this calorie deficit, right? So I've got to do more cardio. And obviously I had cardio programs that were long endurance, high intensity cardio programs that helped long endurance, high intensity cardio programs that helped get me in shape at one point, but what kind of shape?

I mean, I should give you guys photos you can show on the screen of when I was. Oh, I can see a clear difference when you cut out all the cardio training. Yeah. I mean, you're much older and you look better today than you did back then. Thank you.

Yeah, yeah. It's a huge difference. I mean, my butt was completely flat, and I was doing lunges and squats and all those things, but you just don't have anything to build muscle. And your hormones are a big piece of that. Oh yeah, you're just super catabolic.

So once you started to switch and change, were you okay with the growing muscle gain, or was that a mental challenge as well? Yeah, that was mental at first. Because I didn't still quite have it right. Like I was like, okay, I understand I have to do some reverse dieting, right? So that was the first piece, once I kind of stepped away

from that mindset of being afraid of food, and weighing everything in every single macro, and trying to always be in a deficit. So once I started like eating real food and still building and cutting back the cardio, then I still wasn't cutting my cardio back enough. I was like, all right, so maybe as I'm doing two hours of cardio a day, I'll do an hour.

And it didn't shift until I cut it all out and just started walking. Yeah. Now how scary was that transition? Because you had developed a long-term relationship with this burn, burn, burn form of exercise. All of us grew up during an era where that was the way you got lean.

You had to cut it out completely, were you like, okay, this is gonna be scary? And then how did you deal with the building of muscle? Because initially you just feel like you're getting bigger, especially if you're not used to it. Yeah, and it did. At first I was getting bigger. At first I did put on,

because until I was doing things right, once I really started, once I cut out the cardio, like the high intensity, long duration cardio, cut that out, in the first month I saw results. And so I would say to anyone who's afraid to do that, like really dial it in. And the older you get, the less room for error you have. So you've gotta get it right.

It's not just the HRT, it's the style of exercise you're doing. You've gotta to get it right. It's not just the HRT. It's the style of exercise you're doing. You've got to lift heavy. I think you really need to focus on zone two cardio. You've got to dial in your nutrition, sleep, and then if you're open to it, look into hormone replacement therapy. You know, those five pillars.

And if you get four of them right, great. But there's just less room for error the older you get. Yeah them right, we're, you know, great, but there's just less room for error the older you get. Yeah, well, how much muscle have you put on since you've been there? I don't know. I mean, I don't have, I've done in body, I do that all the time to look at my body fat, but a considerable amount. A lot stronger.

Yeah, oh, in terms of strength wise, crazy. Yeah, crazy amount of strength and and that really I'm asking you these questions because I know there's women listening right now who are scared. We talked to them all the time Yeah, they're afraid to cut the crazy cardio out and just focus on getting stronger and especially Eating more. It's like I think I know the fear and I logically they might not admit this but the fear I'm gonna blow up like within a week I'm just gonna gain 30 pounds body fat I mean we just had a we just had a girl who called she called in she was a caller last year and

She had she'd sent over three pictures. She was an ex model. She's in her modeling picture modeling or like fitness modeling No, like modeling model. Yeah, it looked like a modeling picture Yeah, she looked like she was some sort of a model, right? And then that was, what, a year ago? We had given her the advice that she needed a reverse diet. And then she had two more pictures. She had the pictures before and then after her reverse diet. She went from 1,800 to 2,400 calories. Yeah, 1,800 to 2,400 calories.

She would put on eight pounds. Significantly strong, right? And she was calling back because she felt that she's doing something wrong, wasn't working, and we're looking at these pictures, and I'm going like, she really thinks that the modeling version of her is the best version. I'm looking at the thickest version.

She looks better right now. The fact that she went from 1,800 to 2,400 calories and only put eight pounds on the scale, probably half of that was muscle, the other half is water. So she's doing phenomenal, but yet, can't even see it. Massive reserves over the scale weight, though. She didn't think she looked better? No, she thought she was lost.

She was like, I'm calling because it didn't work. What you guys told me didn't work. And we're going like, well, yes, it did. It's working well, real well. You gotta follow the right people. She needs to follow the right people, because for me, I unfollowed all of the overly stringy, thin, cardio girls.

I had unfollowed all of them, and I just followed muscle mavens, women who were my age or older, and you shift what you see as beautiful and what you see as aspirational. And so that was incredibly helpful. How big of an impact does that make? Talk about that.

I just was on a podcast. It was the audience, their general audience was like girls in their 20s. And they asked me, what are some things you could do to help with like body image issue? And the main thing I said was change the algorithm on your social media. Absolutely.

Because that is your reality. And if all you're looking at is impossible to achieve whatever, without realizing you compare yourself. So talk about how powerful that is, what you did, and why you did it. It's huge because it's brainwashing us and we're subjecting ourself to it.

And the algorithm serves you more of what you pay attention to. Even if you don't enjoy it, if you're paying attention to it, you're gonna get more of that. And that seeps into your brain and it really does create beliefs, creates really strong beliefs.

For me, I also was very careful about unfollowing people who were overly obsessed with the science of all of this. You know, so. And, and, and. He's speaking our language. I have unfolds in those, too You know, so. And complete transparency. I don't track macros. I don't count my calories. That was stressful.

I did that enough. I've done that for years. How freeing is it to not? Oh, it's amazing. You know what I do? Sit down, use my intuition, and I eat a big piece of protein and greens and things that are unprocessed,

and I can eat as much as I fucking want. You know what I mean? Doesn't it feel like you just broke a bunch of chains to something that you were just? And it still drives me crazy because, you know, you can make yourself stressed by worrying incessantly about getting it right. Yep.

You know, and I hear the people who call into your show, they wanna know like, should I do my cardio before I lift? Should I lift? You know, how much should I have of my pre-workout before? And does it make a difference if I do this or that? And we're splitting all these hairs. And it's like, just like use your intuition. And that's been conditioned out of us,

especially for those who've been very much a victim of consumer fitness and consumer diet programming, right? Where we're like, we've convinced you, you don't know what's right for your body, you don't know what's the best way to eat, so don't do that, do this. And do this for eight weeks, and oh, if it didn't work, it's because you didn't do it right.

Yeah, no, well, there's a learning process of learning and understanding how, what things affect your body, but you have to move into the place you're in now because this is a relationship you're going to have for the rest of your life. And you can't, I mean, unless you become orthorexic and it's just this insane stressful situation, you can't add and count everything for the rest of your life. And by the way, stress isn't good for you. It also contributes to eating disorders. It also contributes to a decrease in quality of life.

So whatever you achieve with how you look, you'll take away with the stress of all this counting and stuff. And so it's, not enough people communicate this. Yeah, and there wasn't a lot of education either in terms of like people had a lot of options to buy something and it's like they can defer that I'm just going to go through this program and run this program and whatever happens, you know, happens by going through that as opposed to really like educating them through. I think that, you know, the marketplace has changed someone on that level, which is a good thing. But I feel like, you know, back in the day, there was just like, there's just so many

options and it's like, well, if this doesn't work, I'll just keep trying this. So it's just been, it's just been really confusing for the consumer. And so much of that is you looking at the person who created the program and going, I want their body. I want their results. That's all I had to gauge. You know, and like I'm the perfect example of how bullshit that is. Like I was filming a fitness infomercial on camera and it was for a workout

and I remember looking directly into the camera and saying, and you can get these results too in just 30 minutes a day eating real food. And I thought to myself, who, not me, I'm working out five hours a day, I'm not eating. So these results are orthorexic. Like this is the, I'm the most unhealthy I've ever been. And people are looking at me like body goals.

You know? Yeah. No, I'm so glad you communicate all this. I want to get back to the hormone conversation. This is a big one. Hormone therapy, let's talk about testosterone because testosterone traditionally considered, I mean this is a big one. Hormone therapy, let's talk about testosterone because testosterone traditionally considered, I mean this is a male hormone.

A lot of people don't realize that this is a hormone that is very important for women as well. Very important for body composition, motivation, strength, energy. Let's talk about that for a second. You do HRT, it's testosterone part of the mix. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. I think that most women don't, in general, the problem is that we have given a sex assignment

to hormones, like you have estrogen and I have estrogen. And I need it too, just like you do. Absolutely, and I have testosterone, you have testosterone, you might be surprised to know that most women have more testosterone than they do estrogen. But we've just labeled them as a male hormone versus a female hormone and what a disservice. I think it's also been a real disservice that we consider testosterone for women a fix for

libido. That period of time when I was really kind of experimenting with my hormones before menopause, we basically eliminated testosterone. And I remember going like, I just cannot find the right words. My brain feels really foggy. And I didn't notice a change with my strength or libido, but a major impact on my cognition. And what we do know about testosterone is it has a tremendous impact on your cognition, right?

And so, and your body's ability to put on muscle and to build strength. And so that's confidence. And in order for anyone to have libido, your brain has to be right. Like, sex and sexual attraction starts up here, you know? That's where it starts. So if you're not- That's the biggest sex organ. That's the brain.

Yes, yes, between your ears, not between your legs. And you know, so that's a big piece of it. Also bone density. So the fact that we make it so difficult for women today, and you just need a whisper of it, you need very little for most women to be in balance. So I think testosterone's a big one that we've made it difficult. I think they're also afraid that they're gonna get

masculinized with it, like am I gonna throw a beard? Do you find there's a lot of stigma still when you talk about testosterone to women? Yeah, I do, and I think it's really difficult for a lot of women to have access to testosterone and also because the FDA has not, you know, and we're trying to change this, I'm shout out to Dr. Kelly Casper since she's like one of the people who's like really at the forefront of trying to get some changes to happen there. But it's difficult to dose to women. So a lot of them are doing pellets, right?

And so if your doctor gives you a pellet, which is not the way the endocrine system produces testosterone, we produce testosterone daily. So if you're doing like one shot, or if you're doing pellets and it's the wrong dosage, it's been inserted under- You're stuck with it for a little bit. Yeah, you're stuck with it.

So then you might find that people have negative side effects and it's very difficult to adjust. So one of the things that they're saying is probably most ideal is a much smaller dose, much more frequently. But because we don't have those type of dosages available for women, you have to get them through compounding pharmacies where they're gonna compound it with something else so you can inject a very small amount like you know weekly and none of this is covered by insurance that's so wrong like there's there's a new company out there that there's a couple of companies that are trying to work with insurance carriers but like most it's inaccessible to women who can't afford out of pocket care,

and that's wrong. Yeah. Yeah, I think with testosterone too, because a lot of it was based off of men, and our dose is so much higher, that a once a week injection just works great. For some women that works alright as well, but I think a lot of women do better with like a daily

cream or lozenge now they have them. This is Dr. Lauren who recommends the vaginal cream like daily. That's the way she has it. She has it. That's how she tells her patients. I saw you do a post not that long ago on alcohol and it was something like, oh I got to revisit this or something. I think you saw an episode of someone that you were commenting on something you had read about alcohol and like I got to revisit it. Can we talk about that for a second? Talk about losing a lot of followers.

Did you really? Oh yeah. Wait, what happened? Oh my gosh, nobody wants to hear this. Right now, everyone's gonna be turning away from this episode for sure, because we're gonna talk about alcohol. You know, I like to drink.

I love champagne. It's like one of my favorite things to do is to go out to dinner and order a nice bottle of champagne and you know, whatever. I've been drinking since I was 13. And so whenever I would hear some of my favorite podcasters or I had doctors on my show that I really respected and they would say they don't drink, I'd be like, wah, wah, you know. And I, when I'd see some of those biohackers doing episodes on the negative side effects of alcohol, I'd be like, I'll skip that one,

you know, because I don't want to hear it, right? And then I would look for people who were kind of in our space that did drink, and I'm like, oh, cool. Like, so I'm safe, right? To confirm yourself. Yeah, so Brett and I were in Europe, and going out to dinner every single night. Yeah, and you're in Europe too, the wine there is come on.

Absolutely, so we were, because we were never eating a home cooked meal, we had been drinking a little bit every single night and I just felt like, felt puffy, I didn't feel great. So I was like, let's not drink for seven days. And I know that sounds like seven days, no big deal, but when you're in Europe, that feels like anti-vacation. But we did seven days, and during that seven days

to keep myself from not ordering champagne at dinner, I started watching a couple of those podcasts and then looking up the research to see, like how bad is this, really? And once I saw see, like, is this, like, how bad is this? Really? And once I saw it, I couldn't unsee it, and I felt out of alignment with the women I want to help and how I want to help them with their hormones. And I'm like, I can't drink anymore because this isn't in alignment with what I know now to be true for their health. And I know that women are looking at me

the same way I was looking for somebody else who was drinking, but you drink, right? Because I wanted that affirmation, and so, stop drinking. Completely. Completely. How long has that been? Four months. Oh wow. Yeah.

I didn't know that. What did you notice? I didn't know that. Well, a lot of good things but at first I was kind of like well that was a bait and switch because everyone's like oh you're gonna you're gonna lose weight and you're gonna you're you know you're you're gonna sleep better I'm like I didn't but so many other things were positive that it anything that didn't happen, it didn't matter because all the good things have been great. So I would say the biggest thing that I notice is I had this low level every day

after we would go out drinking, I would, or not like we're going out drinking, have drinks with dinner, really. I would notice this kind of low level, almost anxiety, but like something's wrong and I don't know what. You know what I mean? You know that feeling? Like something's wrong and I don't know what it is.

And I really do feel like today it's because I was, it didn't align with what my life's purpose is and my mission, especially at this age. I don't think I would have quit when I was 35, but at this age, if I'm saying I wanna live powerfully, if I want vitality, alcohol has no part of that. How big of a role, you sound so much like a lot of the coaches and trainers that I know

that are really good, that love what they do. They find so much growth in themselves because it's a mirror. That you're training and working with other people and you feel responsible for, okay, I know I tell these people to do this and am I really living up to some of the stuff? And how much of an impact has that put on your,

because you're so growth-minded, I think you're growth-minded anyway, but how big of a role does that play, the fact that you're talking to these people and teaching about health in terms of just looking at yourself? It's a big deal, and also that authenticity piece, like that experience I had at Beachbody,

where I was paid to say something into a camera that was out of alignment with who I am, and I walked. And so here I was doing something intentionally, or knowingly, that was out of alignment. And also because, especially when I looked at the research on Alzheimer's and cognitive decline, and my father-in-law has late-stage Alzheimer's. And it's just...

It's very hard. It's devastating. And it's devastating on the family, you know? So for me to think about my kids caring for me, and because of something I knowingly did, you know, that would have contributed to it. It was just like, this is such a no-brainer. But I was afraid. I had fear of missing alcohol. I call it FOMA. Fear of missing alcohol. Like I was afraid that people wouldn't invite us out to dinner. I was afraid that I still wouldn't want to dance on tables or that I, you know what I mean?

That I wouldn't be a freak in the sheets, you know, like all these things. And none of it's true. Like sex is better, you know, and so many other things are better. The only thing that's like a major, major aha moment is I didn't realize that I was saying yes and going out to dinner and spending time with people who are really boring.

If there was alcohol involved. And now I'm like, hell no. I can't, I can't. Have a sober conversation. So true. There's so many times where I've gone somewhere and I'm like, well, at least there'll be drinks. I'll be able to deal with this. No, it's so true. It's, um,

I think a big reason why people use any consciousness altering anything. Because, look, I think most people struggle, not that you're an addict or whatever, but most people struggle with, kind of at times, general anxiety, social anxiety. I think that's why a lot, or just, I'm not comfortable on my own skin.

And this is, I think, why a lot of people develop relationships with things like alcohol, cannabis, or other types of things. Because it kind of, maybe makes it bearable, but the funny thing is, you don't realize it actually makes things work. Especially if it's a consistent thing. Well, especially if you're talking about

the women, or the people, or the demographic. We were just talking about how much they struggle with the messaging they've been getting, how much their hormones are potentially off, and then you're piling alcohol on that. Talk about making it really difficult to solve all that stuff. It makes every single symptom of perimenopause and menopause worse. It destroys your gut health, it destroys your hormones. It affects your insulin sensitivity, it destroys your hormones. It affects your insulin sensitivity.

Thyroid issues can exacerbate. And so you lost followers? Oh my gosh, when I talk about alcohol, it's like I really try to like it. And I get it because I would mute those people too. You know? You think it's just because they don't want to hear it? I don't want to hear it.

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And for me, it wasn't about escaping anything. I don't have any past traumas to speak of. Love my life, love my husband. But oftentimes it was a reward. So that was the hardest piece for me. I'm like, how do I know I had a good, how do I know I deserve something today, right? Like, you know how you're just like, you know, oh God, I deserve this, you know? You feel that way.

And I didn't know in the beginning how to reward myself at the end of a day. Or it was like about a month into it, I was recording a webinar and I had like, you know, whatever, a thousand people waiting for this webinar and the tech was one of those days where like, the tech was not teching. Everything was crashing, microphone fell off the stand,

you know, the site went down, everything. And I was just like, like this is one of those days where for a split second I thought to myself, well you can have champagne tonight. And I thought just like, this is one of those days where for a split second I thought to myself, well, you can have champagne tonight. And I thought, oh wow. So I was using that to go, you dealt with something really hard, you deserve this. So I had to find new things, a new way of rewarding myself.

You're so growth-minded, Celine. Your ability to look at things and discuss them in this way and then make radical, that's a big change to go from enjoying it every night to none at all. Where does that come from? Or do you teach that? Are you able to coach that to people? I've tried.

Yeah, so I did, it's funny. So I did a walking challenge last, I guess, February and we had like 30,000 women take part in it. And then I did it again in the fall and I did, I said, I called it a walk more, drink less challenge and the attendance was like, ooh. But I knew I needed to do it. And even though, you know, I think we had like 5,000 women take part and after the,

I just did 21 days. And after the first week, you know, massive decline cause people, you know, didn't do it. But what was so rewarding was just reading comments from women who were like, I've, you know, been drinking for 43 years. I've, I'm done. Like it was remarkable to help them do that.

And I helped them do it by understanding what they would experience, understanding the science, understanding you have choice. Like, and guess what? Even if you just drink less, like I'm not this all or nothing kind of person. Drinking less is so much better, but that's really hard for a lot of,

for me, I can't do that. I like it too much. If I have one glass, I want another. That's knowing yourself very well. Yeah. That's Katrina. But for some people, if they can drink less, that's still a poison, but it's better.

Yes, yes, I know it makes a huge difference. I love the way you communicate that. I think another challenge with some people is that they will stumble. And what happens often to people when they stumble, like, oh, I went off my diet, I think another challenge with some people is that they will stumble. And what happens often to people when they stumble, like, oh, I went off my diet, or, oh, I had the drink, or then they're just like, I'm done. I'm going in the other direction.

And they don't give themselves grace. They don't give themselves grace. How do you communicate to that to people? Because you have an ability to decide something and do it. You definitely have that, but that's rare. A lot of people can't do that right out the gates. It's hard. Or maybe you do struggle in some things

that we're not familiar with. How do you communicate? Look, you stumbled, you're going to. Do you set them up ahead of time? Is this something you communicate first? Absolutely. I think it's important to help people understand that it's an experiment.

And so I was really, and I'm not an expert at this, obviously I'm a newbie, and that's so like me to, you know, do something new and be like, okay, I want to help everybody else, you know? But for me, I knew an all or nothing, like declaring that I'll never drink again, I still won't say that, I might, but I know I'll never be a drinker.

And I want it to be an experiment. I think this all or nothing doesn't work for everybody. So there were people who were part of the 21 day challenge and like by day 14, they're like, I gave in and I had drinks last night. And my thought was, well, you can go back to where you were, you can kind of keep going on this and experiment with it. It's an experiment. Just like exercise, just like anything. It's a journey and we practice. You can practice quitting, you can practice cutting back. You practice these things until you get really good at them.

And I wanted to offer a space because it feels like to me the alcohol conversation is like you're either an alcoholic and you have to quit entirely. But like where does that person go who's like I'm just a social, we were just social drinkers. We just started becoming a lot more social. Extra social. And so like, but I couldn't find a book for me. I couldn't find like a book. And I knew it wasn't alcoholic. So I wanted to help that person who was like, yeah, I just probably should cut back, maybe quit, but I don't know.

It's like kind of that sober curious movement. So has this opened up like a new door, like something else you're pursuing? Is it like led you into doing more business things or more spiritual type of interest? That's a really good question. Yeah, what have you noticed? Well, I've noticed it's not something people want to talk about, that's for sure.

I've noticed that it's almost like politics. People either do or don't, because oh my gosh, the comments under this video of people who have quit drinking, you'll see them. They'll be like, every single person will say, I quit four years ago, best decision I ever made. So those are all really positive, or it's the people who are like, live a little,

what's wrong with you? Judgmental much? You know what I mean? But it has helped me to realize I have to be in alignment with all things I need to be. And the more in alignment I am with what I believe and what I practice, the better I, this sounds weird, the better I feel about myself.

Of course. You know? Like sleep is the next thing I have to tackle. I suck at sleep. Really? I don't, it's not fun to sleep. You're so energetic, that's what it is. There's more things I want to see and listen to

and talk about. So how much do you sleep at night? What do you do? Normally. Let's not count this trip. Now I know you guys had a crazy flight situation or whatever, but. Not enough.

I recently talked to my doctor about it and he's like, so I have a new doctor in Miami, Brett and I moved to Miami Beach and so I'm meeting with a new longevity doctor and he was like, so what do you need to work on? Like it looks like you've got a great plan here. And I said, thanks, you know, I really need to work on my sleep. And he grabbed my phone, which was on the edge of his desk

and he goes, this is like five minutes in my first session with him and can I swear? Yeah, of course. He's like, this thing is controlling your fucking life, isn't it? I can tell. He's like, you don't need a pill, you don't need any special program, you need to stop with this.

And I was like. Okay, that's a little too fast, too soon. I know, I was like, God, he read me. But yeah, so it's about changing my habits. I know it is, you know, and the right supplements, I think that helps too. But I think so much of sleep for many of us is habit. Are you a night owl?

Yeah. Yeah. Best business thoughts coming around that time too? Yeah, and for so many years, because we had little kids, I didn't want, I wanted to be with them all the time. I wanted to be at all their games, wanted to be at all their everything, right? And be present, be present so many years, because we had little kids, I didn't want, I wanted to be with them all the time. I wanted to be at all their games, I wanted to be at all their everything, right?

And be present, be present for my husband, all these things. And so I was always, I was like, I'll sacrifice sleep. I'll sleep when I'm dead. I would say that all the time. I used to say that. Yeah, and so regularly got like four hours of sleep for years.

And then I had my brain scanned at the Amon clinic and they were like, something's, we need to send you for a sleep study. So they sent me for a sleep study because of the you know, way my brain looked. And I was like, they don't need to send me for a sleep study. I know what the problem is. It's not a problem with sleeping. It's a problem with not wanting to sleep. So yeah, my sleep study came out perfectly fine, no problems there. It's about honing in my habits. And I asked... So you literally don't let... You just don't go to bed when you're supposed to. Yeah, I don't like to. I don't have much to contribute on this one. I'm guilty of the same thing. No, so is Doug.

Doug and I are both like that. I text him at two o'clock about a business question and know he's up. He's answering. Yeah, yeah. I asked Dr. Kristin Holmes that. I text him at two o'clock about a business question and know he's up. He's answering. I asked Dr. Kristin Holmes recently, we're speaking at a conference together, and I explained the struggle to her, and she said, it just requires the same decision that you've made with exercise or alcohol. It just requires a decision that it's important to you.

That's right. I think there's not a lot lot of books a lot of conversations around a night routine There's there's a million books on morning routines and how to start your day in the first 15 minutes all that bullshit But there's not a lot of conversation around treating the process of getting ready and going to bed as there is Getting up and starting your day. And it's equally, if not more important. And so I think that's a lot of it. But you know what to do and Doug knows what to do and I know what to do but I still don't do it.

What helps me is I work out early in the morning. And because I work out early in the morning, I have to go to bed at night on time, otherwise my workout's gonna suck. And so it motivates me to go to bed on time. I don't have to work out in the morning, I always end up staying up late. I don't get to sleep, I'm just brain dead, so.

I'm worth it. Yeah, I have to do it. I wanna talk about something else that makes you really rare. It's already rare to have a successful business, right? If you have a successful business, you're already in the 20 percentile. If you keep that business for more than five years, you're now in a smaller percentile.

If you make a million dollars, you're even a smaller percentile. If you make millions of dollars, you become even even smaller percentile. And then to do that with your husband, it puts you in a whole nother category. So talk to me a little bit about, because I find it very interesting and fascinating to be able to not only have done that, but then to have done that together. Like what are your favorite attributes about Brett and what he brings to the partnership and like your guys' synergy,

and has it always been that way? Like tell me about it. Well, it just makes me happy to think about, because it's such a big piece of my joy is what we do together and how we complement each other, how much we need each other, you know, to be successful. And no, it wasn't always that way. When we first got married, Brett was, I was raised by wild, unabandoned entrepreneurs,

you know, who are always starting businesses and businesses failing and starting failing. Brett was, I was raised by wild, unabandoned entrepreneurs, who are always starting businesses and businesses failing and starting failing. So risk was what I was raised to do. I was raised to work for yourself and create risk and calculate a risk. And Brett was raised by his father and mother and his dad was a educator, coach,

and you just, you become a teacher and that's what you do. And so when we first met at Michigan State, I was already in, you know, I had already created a business. It was a swap meet for cars, the all Michigan auto swap meet. And so when he met me, I was already, you know, an entrepreneur. And so I think he liked that because it was a competitive, that's the only place where I'm really kind of competitive. You're a chick in college and you're doing a swap meet for cars? Yeah.

Okay, you gotta tell me a little bit about that. Yeah. Like how the... Yeah, so I, in order to put myself through college, I flipped cars. So I bought my first car from the state auction in Michigan and had it painted black, made a couple hundred bucks. And then I was like, oh, this is crazy. I'm gonna do this again. So I kept doing it and doing it painted black, made a couple hundred bucks. And then I was like, oh, this is crazy.

I'm gonna do this again. So I kept doing it and doing it, but one car at a time. And it was cumbersome to have people come to your home to see a car, especially if you're like a 19 year old girl. And sometimes I'm driving down to Detroit with a purse full of cash to buy a Honda Prelude. You know what I mean? So it wasn't exactly the safest thing.

And I realized like other people have to be dealing with this because people wouldn't show, they would say I'm coming at five o'clock and they wouldn't show or they would show and they'd be sketch, you know? So I'm like other people have to be dealing with this. What if I ran an ad and I leased a piece of land, like a big empty lot, and I had everybody was going to buy a car from a private owner, which you do in the Midwest. You don't do that necessarily in California, but in the Midwest they still do. Or anyone who wanted to sell their car

as a private owner, I could bring them all together, I'll take a small percentage. And so that was my business. And the way that I got people to show up for it, because I had a little bit of money for ads, not much, is I would just go through the classified ads and I would call every single person who had a car for sale and I would say, are you having this problem? I would cold call every single person who had their vehicle

and talk them into coming to my. That's so sick. That's right. That's so great. So anyways, when we first got married, Brett was an athlete. He was quarterback at UCLA, quarterback at Michigan State, did a little professional stint, and then we were married.

And now he's not playing football. And that was his identity. Now, did you think when you were first getting with him that you were marrying the pro athlete who's going to take you into the sunset? I was hoping not. No, okay. No, yeah, I was hoping because I thought they were all like players and you know, I didn't want to be on the road.? I was hoping not. No, okay. No, yeah, I was hoping, because I thought they were all like players, and I didn't want to be on the road.

I wanted to do business. Oh, okay, cool. I did not want him to, I mean, it was great if he did, but so once that was over, you know, he kind of struggled to figure out, like, what is, who am I? And I think a lot of athletes do.

For sure. And so, you know, I didn't know how to have him help me, but I knew he had these other skills and this business acumen that was hard. You couldn't teach it to somebody, but he had it. If you're a D1 college athlete and a quarterback at that, you have some natural gifts and talents when it comes to leadership and running things, right? Absolutely. Yeah, and numbers too. Like he's a human calculator, it's insane.

And he's so good at projections, he's so good at forecasting, which is remarkable. But I didn't know that then, and I didn't know how to have him help me, but I knew I needed his help. So when we first started working together, and I convinced him to quit his, he'd gone to get like just a working together, and I convinced him to quit his, he'd gone to get like just a random job,

but I convinced him to quit that. And I'm like, we can do this together. But I didn't know how or what he should be doing. So I gave him like, I'd be like, we'll do this. And it would be something that I should be doing or I knew what to do and he didn't. So I was kind of like setting him up for failure, unknowingly.

And we just struggled. Like, it wasn't comfortable for him and it wasn't comfortable for me. We went to therapy. Yeah. And- Was it because of that too? Partly, yeah. Yep. That was one of the things we talked about. And a big piece of that was understanding how to recognize each other's strengths and even the language I was using. I would say, so can you do this for my business? Or like, can you do this for me? And it was like, no, it's for us.

And we learned how to really honor each other's gifts and strengths and revere them. And eventually, I mean, it just, every part of our business wouldn't be, we wouldn't be where we are today if we weren't partners. Like it's such a privilege to have a partner who, and I realize that so many people don't have this, but they, like being married to a squirrel brain entrepreneur is hard, right? Like he's constantly running in front of me and setting up orange cones so I don't kill somebody. But he also, like, there's a part of my Tasmanian devil energy

that he respects and he just makes sure that I don't fall off a cliff. And there's a piece of his slow down. Yes, we could do that, but do we need to do that? Let's evaluate this. Does this make sense now? Here's what this is going to look like when we play it out, like all those things. He just helps me look at things in a less emotional way. For example, one of our businesses, we did these physical journals for, I don't know how many years it's been, probably like 10 years. I'm so passionate about them.

But recently, we've decided to sunset that business. And if it were up to me, we wouldn't. I'd bleed it out, you know, because it's a passion. But he's like, but we have to look at where you're spending your energy and where you get the biggest bang for your buck. And what do you want to do? Do you want to work more? Or should we be enjoying life more?

It's like, yeah, you're right. So it's just a joy to have, and it's a privilege to have someone who we can lay together and be excited about the same things and appreciative of each other. And also you're in your lane and I'm in my lane and we really respect that. If I were to ask you both your favorite revenue stream,

would it be the same thing, or would you guys disagree on your favorite and your least favorite? My favorite is always the thing that I like doing the most, and that's the easiest. So my current favorite revenue stream, I think I always will be, is just talking. Right? I mean, isn't it the coolest thing ever?

It resonates with Sal. Great time. Yeah. Right. I mean, isn't it the coolest thing ever? It resonates with Sal. Every time. He loves this. He loves this. Sal's like, just let me talk. This is new for me. Worry about all the other stuff. Yeah, it's wild to think that I can just talk

and we'll find a way to make money from it. Like, whether I'm sharing my experience with diet and exercise or if I'm just talking about personal stuff on my Patreon like that's crazy and so fun because you're never gonna stop talking anyways. So I'd be curious to know. What do you think he would say? Yeah. Because you know how his mind works and you know knowing all the business and the revenue streams what would he most likely be like for his reasons like

that's the one that's the revenue stream I like. Probably our affiliate deals and our you know partnerships, but a lot of that's related to like podcasting. Off hands, most scalable, allows you to travel. Yeah, I think the one that's probably got the biggest scalable potential and you know an exit strategy would be Phase It, our program for perimenopausal and menopausal women. Okay. Yeah. And it's one I'm super passionate about too. So those two. Now have you guys had to, I mean, Katrina and I share this also, and I know there's been phases and stages of our relationship with both business and personal. Have there been certain things that you guys have had to create as like boundaries or like

habits to do to make sure that the business side doesn't believe too much into the personal dynamic. Like, have you guys? Absolutely. Especially with the kids, you know, because because we're both in the same business, it was really easy to let that just keep going after the kids are home. And you know, keep talking about us, our work, etc. So we when the when our children were now they're work, et cetera. So when our children were, now they're grown adults, but when they were young, we had code

words when, because usually one person is like still hot about one topic and the other person's like, I'm done talking about it. So we would have a code word, you know, to say to each other that was like, okay, we're done talking about this. And then we just had boundaries and we had specific written guidelines that we did not cross when it came to our business and our family. Like family came first. So I didn't take any appearances on the weekends. I didn't do anything where I had to be away from the kids.

And we also had when they were young, we had an agreement that I wouldn't get excited about it. I could have one new thing a month because I get too excited about it. It would just take over everything. So I was allowed to do like one new idea per month, was it? What's that code word? Is it tangerine? No, no. Yeah. His, for me, he would call me Smalls. He'd be like, oh, that's really interesting Smalls. It's like a movie reference. And for me, I would call me Smalls. He'd be like, oh, that's a really interesting Smalls. It's like a movie reference. And for me, I would call him Handsome. So I'd say, okay, that's very interesting, Handsome,

and that meant, let's stop talking about this. I like those kind of words. It's like a compliment, too. How old are your kids? Now they are, I'll have to ask my husband, but 24 and I think 27, is that right, honey? Yeah, 24 and 27. And my son is, he's an online marketer,

entrepreneur as well, so he's the CEO of one of our businesses. Do they have any kids? Do they have kids? Nope, nope, nope, but he's married. Are you excited for that at some point? Yeah, but you're not allowed to ask or say that. That's like, yeah, no.

My parents were all over me. Of course, different generation, right? So now you're not supposed to ask that, or assume that, or get involved in that in any way, shape, or form. Do you think about that? Like, oh, I can't wait. Well, I think it'll be fine if my children have children, but I won't be a grandma, if that makes sense.

What do you mean? It'll be my children having children, but I'll never be a grandma. Right. And it'll be lovely for them. You're going to love it. Yeah, I can't wait. That'll be exciting. And then my daughter, she started a business about five, four years ago now and started

a beauty business. And this year just realized like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do a beauty business. And so it's fun to see them experiment. Both entrepreneurs, huh? Yeah. And we, you know, and know that it's, it's not a failure. It's like, you're just experimenting and figuring out what works. And that's really cool. Like the most successful people are okay with things not working out the way they had planned and moving on to

the next thing. That's how you win. Does Brock embrace you guys helping or telling him what to do or is he very much, so leave me alone, I got this, what's he like? He's the king of nepotism. He's like, give me all those menopausal followers, I'll take them all. And my daughter's like, mom, please don't tag me. This is not my avatar.

Do not tag me. My son's like, don't forget to tell him I'm your son and tag me. Yeah, so they're completely opposite. Oh, wow. That's so great. So with your podcast, tell me about some of your favorite guests that you've had and some of the ones you've learned from the most. You know, the female doctors in the last year have really like just cracked my head open to see so much more about lifestyle, right?

You know, and especially when it comes to the way women want to age and they've opened up my eyes with regard to, you know, probably one that's had the biggest effect is Dr. Mary Claire Haver. She's the author of The New Menopause. And it's just a phenomenal book and she's a renegade. And just learning from her, really understanding what a difference it makes when you have all of these levers. Because we're always looking for that one thing and we've been conditioned by women

to be looking for that one thing. So if I get on the right diet, if I take the right injection, if I do the right exercise program, then I'll be fit. That's how we value women, that's how we value ourselves. And so that has really had a profound impact

on the way I help women. And I think that, you know, understanding that longevity, like, longevity is about, it's not about all those little things that we're so worried that all the biohackers are talking about. Like, you know, do you have to do red light therapy X number of days per week, followed by a cold plunge, followed by ozone.

Like, it's a lot. And I think so much of it is like, just get the basics right. How about we get the basics right? Yeah. Dude, get sleep right. You know, obviously, maybe if you can handle it, cutting back on alcohol, maybe cutting it out at a certain age, but getting lifestyle right, getting

stress right, exercise, like put muscle in your body, like muscle is such an underrated biohack. Totally. 100%. You know? Just the amazing transformation that you see women have, not just with their bodies and their hormones, but their confidence when they start lifting heavy. But we don't know what lifting heavy is.

Like we don't know what, when we hear people say, well, you've got to lift heavy. You know? And people are like, well, what does that mean? Or they'll say, well, you well, do a certain number of reps. But we haven't taught women what that's supposed to feel like. Yeah, we would experience this with female clients all the time where you get a female client and she's lifting something and you start adding weight. I can't do more weight.

It's like, no, no, I'm watching you. You can actually do more than I added, but we're gonna move up slowly. They're not used to that type of exertion, and then being able to get used to it, and then building strength from there is so empowering. Yeah, combined with the stigma around heavy weight makes you bulky

is also in the back of their brain, right? So there's this, oh, this feels scary and heavy, and then in addition to that, I don't wanna get all big and bulky. I mean, I think it's a combination of the two, for sure. Yeah, I think it's gonna change in this next generation. It Yeah, I think it's going to change in this next generation. It feels like it already. It's already shifted.

You go to gyms now. I work on a commercial gym. Squat racks are filled. 50% or more of the free weight area is women now. It was never like that before. Just 15 years ago, it wasn't like that. Now it's like, I go to the gym and it's half women. And they're all deadlifting and squatting

and they're lifting heavy. And sometimes I pause and I go, the gym and it's half women and they're all dead lifting and squatting and they're lifting heavy and I Sometimes I pause and I go man. I mean our our biggest seller program ever was muscle mommy. So to me that's oh Really? That's a true testament to that. It's changing because that would have never flown 15 years ago No, 15 years ago. We would not have marketed muscle mommy And I still I'm not seeing enough women my age no in the way there's still women in our generation were lied to the most and it was so It was so consistent so constant that like if I had to convince a 25 year old girl to lift weights It's easy you give me a 45 or 55 or 65 forget it now

I'm talking to them and I'm doing, I have to really do my best at explaining the benefits of strength training and what's not gonna happen. And here's the myths and here's why. And I have to ease them in. And once they feel it, then they're bought in. But that, our generation was definitely lied to the most. Please, for decades, for decades we were told that.

Or the 25 year olds, they might have heard a little bit of the bullshit. They were told low calorie, low fat, lots of cardio. And if you do lift weights, do a thousand reps. That's the only way you can do it. Absolutely. You know, in 50% or women who are 50 years and older have a 90% chance that they are likely already experiencing problems of bone density.

Yes. Right. So just lifting, just lifting weights three times a week, you significantly improve bone density. Just wearing a weighted vest, wearing a weighted vest three days a week for just 30 minutes can increase your bone density by as much as 3% in 12 months.

Well, that's where your kick with the weighted vest came from. I was wondering where that came from. Yeah. I know you started doing that recently. Well, the weighted vest is a lot of things for me. So the weighted vest is an lot of things for me. So the weighted vest is, it's an easy way to improve bone density. So I was diagnosed with osteopenia

when I was perimenopausal, and I'm like, how can this be? I lift heavy all the time. Well, the reason why is because, I think, in large part because of the type of cardio I was doing, it absolutely diminished bone density. You were overtrained and underfed. That's right.

So I had weak bones, which I was like, how? If you're doing all the things right, but you're also doing the other things wrong, you just aren't gonna see the benefit. You actually, you actually saved yourself a little bit because of the exercise, because it would have been much worse

had you fed yourself the way you did and not worked out. Yeah. But yeah, it was, now that you've reversed that, I bet you still get your bone density test? Oh, I bet you it's going the opposite way. Oh yeah, 100%. You can build bone very quickly and effectively if you do things right.

I've had many women come, and then I've had women's doctors come to me and call me and go, what are you guys doing? Like we're lifting weights once a week, what? Yeah, and I'm having to eat more food, oh my God. And we have studies from the last 20 years, there's 20 years worth of studies looking at the effectiveness of just wearing a weighted vest. But I ask my community all the time,

have you ever been told by your doctor, when they tell me they've been diagnosed with osteopenia, did your doctor recommend wearing a weighted vest? No, of course not. You know, and listen, I'm not saying that medication is a bad thing, but why wouldn't we start with lifestyle intervention? Why wouldn't we add that, right? And so just wearing a weighted vest, you know, three times a week, 30 minutes can increase

your bone density in that way. And you don't have to be out exercising while you're wearing it. You can just wear it around the house and increase your bone density. You know, it's a great way because a lot of women once they start walking, you know, they're conditioned to make it harder. Well, it's an easy way to make it harder is to add a weighted vest. Do you know how much strength training is required to prevent the muscle loss and bone density loss that's attributed to age. Do you know how much it's required? It's like once a week every two weeks. Wow.

Just to, that'll prevent the loss. They need to build tons of muscle and strength. Yeah. Doesn't take much at all to stop the bone density loss and a little bit of strength training. To have strong, to have great muscles, you need great bones. Yeah. I mean, they are part of the same system.

The same thing that builds muscle, the same stimulus that builds muscle will build bone. It's the same thing. And that's the other reason why women as they age, they have to understand the importance of testosterone. Because testosterone has a major impact on our bone density as well. And so for so many women, it's, they think, okay, well, I'm menopausal, so now I shouldn't be looking at hormone replacement therapy. You absolutely still can. And depending on how far away you are from that transition, it can look a little different.

But I just want any woman who's hearing this to understand that she is deserving of a practitioner who understands and is passionate about treating women for hormone health. And they're out there and you'll find them. And you can find them with telehealth sometimes, but you find them because it's your longevity is dependent upon it, your vitality is dependent upon it. And so, just because a doctor's hate to not know. They, you know, I recently- That's why they dismiss you. Absolutely. I was seeing a new doctor when I was kind of doctor searching in Miami and I saw a GP,

a female GP, and she asked me to give me the list of the supplements I was taking. So I gave her the list of the supplements and she's like, why are you taking collagen peptides? And I said, well, you know, for skin, hair, and bones. And she's like, well, you know, there's no research to support that. You can take it if you like it, but it's wasting your money. And I thought, okay, now, what do I do in this situation? Like, do I print out the research and bring it back to her?

And I just decided I'm just not going to go back to her. Yeah, move on. But so many people don't have that knowledge. And they're like, oh. Yeah, they hear that. They go, oh, I was duped. This is bullshit. Right.

I'm like, oh, it's just so. I would have much preferred if she said, you know, I'm curious to see the research. Or why is it? What research have you seen? Instead, she just, and I think a lot of people are in a position of authority. We just take what they say as golden

and we don't question it and they don't wanna say, you know, I need to look into that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you keep doing what you're doing. You're helping a lot of people. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you coming back on the show. Absolutely, you guys are so fun.

Thank you so much. You got it. And I appreciate what you have to say about all things health, it's great. You guys are awesome, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy,

and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes Maps Anabolic, Maps Performance, and Maps Aesthetic, nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body

looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com.

If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a 5-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support, and until next time, this is Mind Pump. Hi, I'm Chris Gafford, and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone.

I tweet out a phone number, thousands of people try to call, talk to one of them, they stay anonymous, I can't hang up, that's all the rules. I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh. Somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's gonna happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today,

Beautiful Anonymous.